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The isolated origin of Abrahamic religions

Mamoon

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The three main Abrahamic religions - Christianity, Islam and Judaism - all originated in the Arabian Peninsula. The three religion share similarities because they believe in the common prophets and stories, i.e. the creation of man/Adam and Eve, Noah's Flood, Abraham and the sacrifice of Isaac, Moses and his miracles etc.

My question is, as per popular Islamic belief, 124,000 prophets were sent to every part of the world, why don't we have other religions which has the same common stories and prophets as the three Abrahamic religions?

Why didn't a religion develop in let's say Latin America or India or Europe, that also believes in Noah, Moses or Jacob, or how Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit and were banished to earth?

What happened to the teaching and followers of those prophets, and why did they all wipe out and only the three Abrahamic religions that all originated in the Arabian Peninsula, survived?

How come there is no holy book/scripture that originated outside the Arab world/Middle East but has striking similarities with the Bible, Torah and the Quran?

This isn't a rhetorical question and I'm open to any convincing explanation. However, I have discussed this point with quite a few people and scholars in Pakistan, UK and the U.S., and I have yet to come across any justification/explanation that can be deemed as satisfactory.

In my opinion, it really adds a lot of weight to the Atheist argument that these three faiths are nothing but Arabian inventions where Christianity was plagiarized from Judaism and Islam was plagiarized from Christianity, because the explanation that the other prophets fizzled out and only the Arabian prophets and teaching survived seems very simplistic and convenient to make sense.

There are a lot of students of comparative religion on this forum so I am interested in their views and explanations.
 
Religion usually is geographically oriented not sure why there is a question in that? Following it is a personal choice as religion can never pass the rational belief system and one should avoid putting it out for the same.
 
Actually, works by authors in comparative mythology have shown the commonalities of all world religious superstructures. Frazer did it in his Golden Bough, more than century ago, and Joseph Campbell took on, particularly showing how "regular" the so called "hero myth" is (he also influenced the script of Star Wars, among other Hollywood productions).

Keep in mind Islam is the only religion to talk of al din al qayyim (the perennial/primordial religion) reverberated in all ethnic and cultural communities (Jews talked of seventy nations, but prophecy only vouchsafing them, while Christians reduce the Logos - the Universal Spirit - to the historical Jesus Christ alone).

Modern anthropology is more in favour of the Islamic idea, and that's why many of the leading comparative religionists converted to Islam (René Guénon, Frithjof Schuon, ... I think you'd love their books).
 
The three main Abrahamic religions - Christianity, Islam and Judaism - all originated in the Arabian Peninsula. The three religion share similarities because they believe in the common prophets and stories, i.e. the creation of man/Adam and Eve, Noah's Flood, Abraham and the sacrifice of Isaac, Moses and his miracles etc.

My question is, as per popular Islamic belief, 124,000 prophets were sent to every part of the world, why don't we have other religions which has the same common stories and prophets as the three Abrahamic religions?

Why didn't a religion develop in let's say Latin America or India or Europe, that also believes in Noah, Moses or Jacob, or how Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit and were banished to earth?

What happened to the teaching and followers of those prophets, and why did they all wipe out and only the three Abrahamic religions that all originated in the Arabian Peninsula, survived?

How come there is no holy book/scripture that originated outside the Arab world/Middle East but has striking similarities with the Bible, Torah and the Quran?

This isn't a rhetorical question and I'm open to any convincing explanation. However, I have discussed this point with quite a few people and scholars in Pakistan, UK and the U.S., and I have yet to come across any justification/explanation that can be deemed as satisfactory.

In my opinion, it really adds a lot of weight to the Atheist argument that these three faiths are nothing but Arabian inventions where Christianity was plagiarized from Judaism and Islam was plagiarized from Christianity, because the explanation that the other prophets fizzled out and only the Arabian prophets and teaching survived seems very simplistic and convenient to make sense.

There are a lot of students of comparative religion on this forum so I am interested in their views and explanations.

Firstly I wouldn't bother so much with that number...224,000 is also mentioned in some places...in general the hadith in question are considered to be weak...not sahih...

It is however true that God claims to have left every civilisation a Prophet or Messenger...

There never was a people without a Warner having lived among them' 35:24

'And certainly We sent Messengers before you; there are some of them that We have mentioned to you and there are others whom we have not mentioned to you.' 40:78

The most famous monotheistic religion that predates the Abrahamic faiths is Zorostrianism...its also argued that it doesn't predate Judaism but that's another topic...

There is no doubt that every civilisation has had some form of belief system...the question that I guess needs to be raised is whether non-monotheistic religions can come from an Abrahamic God?...

Elijah fighting Baal would seem to suggest not...
 
I'm not really educated on this, but I'll give it a shot.

The prophets sent to the other parts of the world weren't as good as the ones in Middle East.

I think Buddha was a prophet of Allah, but the Indians corrupted his message just like the Christians corrupted Jesus (pbuh)'s message. Remember, Buddhism has a lot of similarities with Islam.

Very good question man. I never thought about this.
 
Simple answer from anthropological and archeological data, pre-David prophets were legends and in past legends were generally region based. (Hindi legends are specific to India, legends of native American or of native Australian are specific to thear region, Greek had their own mythology, Egyptian, Assurian, zoroastriani had their own, anyway this list is long)

As now we are living in the age of globalization, now our legends are also global (esp if legends come from global power, e.g. superman, spiderman, hulk, )
 
From last 10 years or so it is pretty clear to me that there is nothing divine when it comes to any religion. But that doesn't mean i don't want to walk away from it. When something really bad is happening i pray to god for help. Sometimes i thank to god when things are going really good. These things have been part of me from childhood i don't want to lose it.

As a Hindu i love going to temple , read about mythology etc. I love the festivals especially Holi and Diwali. I hope my son will follow same path as me.
 
Firstly I wouldn't bother so much with that number...224,000 is also mentioned in some places...in general the hadith in question are considered to be weak...not sahih...

It is however true that God claims to have left every civilisation a Prophet or Messenger...

There never was a people without a Warner having lived among them' 35:24

'And certainly We sent Messengers before you; there are some of them that We have mentioned to you and there are others whom we have not mentioned to you.' 40:78

The most famous monotheistic religion that predates the Abrahamic faiths is Zorostrianism...its also argued that it doesn't predate Judaism but that's another topic...

There is no doubt that every civilisation has had some form of belief system...the question that I guess needs to be raised is whether non-monotheistic religions can come from an Abrahamic God?...

Elijah fighting Baal would seem to suggest not...

How old is Tegriism?
 
I might be wrong but didn't it also prophesize in the Bhagwat Gita the coming of Muhammad (P.B.U.H).
 
Also humans have been on this God's green Earth for close to 2 million years. That's a massive time period and the message the prophets must have brought got lost over the years. To put things in perspective Islam came about just 1400 years ago.

1400 is nothing compared to 2 million.
 
Modern Hinduism is way way newer than a lot of people think it is and has been in constant change. A lot of the time the confusion arises from mistaking Hinduism with the Vedas which was more a philosophy than a religion. But revisionists and bhakts seem to think the older the better, and try and push Hinduism further and further back to present a glorious Indian culture that stretched across aeons.

All the texts I have read, and they are not much or comprehensive by any stretch, point to a Vedic understanding of the beginning of life that is closer to modern science's thoughts. However, Hindu texts are in a constant state of revision that leaves me skeptical about how ancient this knowledge truly was.

Regarding the OP, there doesn't seem to be much similarity between the Vedic period's belief of creation and the Abrahamic one. Either, one of them is right, or both are wrong. As an atheist for all practical purposes, I'd choose the latter and point out that there was a time when Zeus, Odin, Thor etc were widely revered. Today, they are part of Hollywood.
[MENTION=138254]Syed1[/MENTION] As far as I know, no one was prophesied in Hindu texts. Think I read the name Sachin somewhere though...:13:
 
They were sent to many nations but they are not necessarily known by the same names in those nations as they are in Arabic peninsula. As simple as that.
 
Modern Hinduism is way way newer than a lot of people think it is and has been in constant change. A lot of the time the confusion arises from mistaking Hinduism with the Vedas which was more a philosophy than a religion. But revisionists and bhakts seem to think the older the better, and try and push Hinduism further and further back to present a glorious Indian culture that stretched across aeons.

All the texts I have read, and they are not much or comprehensive by any stretch, point to a Vedic understanding of the beginning of life that is closer to modern science's thoughts. However, Hindu texts are in a constant state of revision that leaves me skeptical about how ancient this knowledge truly was.

Regarding the OP, there doesn't seem to be much similarity between the Vedic period's belief of creation and the Abrahamic one. Either, one of them is right, or both are wrong. As an atheist for all practical purposes, I'd choose the latter and point out that there was a time when Zeus, Odin, Thor etc were widely revered. Today, they are part of Hollywood.
[MENTION=138254]Syed1[/MENTION] As far as I know, no one was prophesied in Hindu texts. Think I read the name Sachin somewhere though...:13:

Actually zakir naik made this claim and interpreted that the meanings of some names in gita and vedas are same as the Prophet's.
 
The story of Noah and the great flood is found in cultures all over the world. From South America to Australia.

The Sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh dates back nearly 5,000 years and is thought to be perhaps the oldest written tale on the planet. In it, there is an account of the great sage Utnapishtim, who is warned of an imminent flood to be unleashed by wrathful gods. He builds a vast circular-shaped boat, reinforced with tar and pitch, that carries his relatives, grains and animals. After enduring days of storms, Utnapishtim, like Noah in Genesis, releases a bird in search of dry land.

Myriad ancient cultures have their own legends of watery cataclysm and salvation. According to Vedic lore, a fish tells the mythic Indian king Manu of a flood that will wipe out humanity; Manu then builds a ship to withstand the epic rains and is later led to a mountaintop by the same fish. An Aztec story sees a devout couple hide in the hollow of a vast tree with two ears of corn as divine storms drown the wicked of the land.

The story of Adam and Eve is also found is various historic cultures, The Adapa Epic is a Babylonian story about a man whom many compare with the biblical Adam. In this tale, Adapa was fishing one day in the Persian Gulf when the south wind suddenly overturned his boat. Adapa cursed the wind, breaking one of its wings so that it could not blow for seven days. Hearing of this, Anu, the sky god, summoned Adapa to give account for himself; but before Adapa went, the god Ea (whom Adapa served) instructed him on how to conduct himself in the heavenly court, and warned him that they might offer him the food and water of death, which he must not eat or drink. Adapa followed Ea’s instructions and found favor with Anu, who decided to offer him the food and water of life—which would have conferred immortality. But Adapa heeded Ea’s warning and refused, much to Anu’s astonishment, and was sent back to earth as a mortal to live among mankind, apparently bringing illness to those among whom he lived.

Another similarity between historic cultures and Abrahamic regions is the method of creation. In an Egyptian creation account from Memphis, the god Ptah speaks new things into existence: “All the divine order really came into being through what the heart [of Ptah] thought and the tongue commanded.” This method of creation is certainly in line with the Bible and Qur'an “Let there be,” and is a step above the standard sexual procreation method of creation found elsewhere.

Moreover, the story of Imhotep in ancient egypt is very similar the story of Prophet Younis found in the Qur'an and the bible.

The story of Queen Sheba and Solomon are also found in the Ethiopian holy book - the Kebra Nagast. The book also talks about the the Ark of the Covenant.

There are also some similarities found in the birth legend of Sargon of Akkad with the story of Moses. The legend comes from historic texts written back in the 7th century. Sargon's birth and his early childhood are described thus:

"My mother was a high priestess, my father I knew not. The brothers of my father loved the hills. My city is Azupiranu, which is situated on the banks of the Euphrates. My high priestess mother conceived me, in secret she bore me. She set me in a basket of rushes, with bitumen she sealed my lid. She cast me into the river which rose over me. The river bore me up and carried me to Akki, the drawer of water. Akki, the drawer of water, took me as his son and reared me. Akki, the drawer of water, appointed me as his gardener. While I was a gardener, Ishtar granted me her love, and for four and ... years I exercised kingship."

I could keep writing on this topic but the point is that there are similar stories as to the ones found in Abrahamic Relions in various historical cultures around the world. Now, you could look at this two ways. One could be that we find similar stories in historic cultures around the world because God had sent Prophets all over the world who told the same stories or the other way to look at it is that Abrahamic Religions plagiarized from these other historic cultures.
 
If you are willing to believe that Kalki avatar is Imam Mahdi.....Bhagavat Gita predicted rise of Prophet (even though it clearly states who it considers as the one and only God).....EVERY other religion (apart from one) has "corrupted" the texts that was given to it....

then you may find some answers to the tough questions you raise.

Personally speaking, I find a lot of logical flaws in every religion.

If the world is a test, why are some given easy chances (being born in the right religion) and some not. And why is punishment eternal when obviously some have got it easy in the test?

Till date, I have not heard one decent reply to this and that makes things fall apart for me.

The only religion whose core premise makes sense to me is Hinduism (karma concepts) but even that religion has worldly logical fallacies like Rama ruling for 10,000 years....Satya Yuga automatically starting after Kali Yuga (doesn't match with modern world timelines)....I don't care about some doing revisionism to change timelines to make things "logical"...what I care about is how things can be explained.....maybe there is some larger level answer for it but as of now, I am not sure about the timelines.

If my post has hurt any Hindus, Christians, Muslims or any religious fellas...I am sorry.

These are just my personal views. And yes, I am very very religious. I hope God doesn't mistake me for asking some tough questions. Its just due to ignorance and desire to learn I am asking. :)
 
All religions are borne out of plagiarism of past myths and stories. Thought that was pretty obvious when you study different religions. Only difference is that all of them believe that they are the only right one.

The world is simply too big and diverse to be covered by a single religion or a belief system.
 
I don't really know much about comparative religions or history regarding them, but I'm always interested in the gap between religious scriptures and the way people actually live, especially in the modern era.
 
Geographical origins can be isolated and based in comparatively similar geographical locations, but teaching are actually quite similar to ancient Greek philosopher and polymath Aristotle, and the 2nd century physician and philosopher Galen.
 
The story of Noah and the great flood is found in cultures all over the world. From South America to Australia.

The Sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh dates back nearly 5,000 years and is thought to be perhaps the oldest written tale on the planet. In it, there is an account of the great sage Utnapishtim, who is warned of an imminent flood to be unleashed by wrathful gods. He builds a vast circular-shaped boat, reinforced with tar and pitch, that carries his relatives, grains and animals. After enduring days of storms, Utnapishtim, like Noah in Genesis, releases a bird in search of dry land.

Myriad ancient cultures have their own legends of watery cataclysm and salvation. According to Vedic lore, a fish tells the mythic Indian king Manu of a flood that will wipe out humanity; Manu then builds a ship to withstand the epic rains and is later led to a mountaintop by the same fish. An Aztec story sees a devout couple hide in the hollow of a vast tree with two ears of corn as divine storms drown the wicked of the land.

The story of Adam and Eve is also found is various historic cultures, The Adapa Epic is a Babylonian story about a man whom many compare with the biblical Adam. In this tale, Adapa was fishing one day in the Persian Gulf when the south wind suddenly overturned his boat. Adapa cursed the wind, breaking one of its wings so that it could not blow for seven days. Hearing of this, Anu, the sky god, summoned Adapa to give account for himself; but before Adapa went, the god Ea (whom Adapa served) instructed him on how to conduct himself in the heavenly court, and warned him that they might offer him the food and water of death, which he must not eat or drink. Adapa followed Ea’s instructions and found favor with Anu, who decided to offer him the food and water of life—which would have conferred immortality. But Adapa heeded Ea’s warning and refused, much to Anu’s astonishment, and was sent back to earth as a mortal to live among mankind, apparently bringing illness to those among whom he lived.

Another similarity between historic cultures and Abrahamic regions is the method of creation. In an Egyptian creation account from Memphis, the god Ptah speaks new things into existence: “All the divine order really came into being through what the heart [of Ptah] thought and the tongue commanded.” This method of creation is certainly in line with the Bible and Qur'an “Let there be,” and is a step above the standard sexual procreation method of creation found elsewhere.

Moreover, the story of Imhotep in ancient egypt is very similar the story of Prophet Younis found in the Qur'an and the bible.

The story of Queen Sheba and Solomon are also found in the Ethiopian holy book - the Kebra Nagast. The book also talks about the the Ark of the Covenant.

There are also some similarities found in the birth legend of Sargon of Akkad with the story of Moses. The legend comes from historic texts written back in the 7th century. Sargon's birth and his early childhood are described thus:

"My mother was a high priestess, my father I knew not. The brothers of my father loved the hills. My city is Azupiranu, which is situated on the banks of the Euphrates. My high priestess mother conceived me, in secret she bore me. She set me in a basket of rushes, with bitumen she sealed my lid. She cast me into the river which rose over me. The river bore me up and carried me to Akki, the drawer of water. Akki, the drawer of water, took me as his son and reared me. Akki, the drawer of water, appointed me as his gardener. While I was a gardener, Ishtar granted me her love, and for four and ... years I exercised kingship."

I could keep writing on this topic but the point is that there are similar stories as to the ones found in Abrahamic Relions in various historical cultures around the world. Now, you could look at this two ways. One could be that we find similar stories in historic cultures around the world because God had sent Prophets all over the world who told the same stories or the other way to look at it is that Abrahamic Religions plagiarized from these other historic cultures.

Following is the "flood story" from Australia, I do not find any similarity, no mention of God or prophet.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/aus/mla/mla09.htm
 
I think Buddha was a prophet of Allah, but the Indians corrupted his message just like the Christians corrupted Jesus (pbuh)'s message. Remember, Buddhism has a lot of similarities with Islam.

Which begs the question why did God allow the messages of hundreds of thousands of prophets to be corrupted or to disappear yet only promised to divinely protect the contents of one specific message?
 
Which begs the question why did God allow the messages of hundreds of thousands of prophets to be corrupted or to disappear yet only promised to divinely protect the contents of one specific message?

The question is too small minded. It could be considered similar to a fly asking a spider why he bothers to spin a web that could be washed away by a storm.
 
Which begs the question why did God allow the messages of hundreds of thousands of prophets to be corrupted or to disappear yet only promised to divinely protect the contents of one specific message?

Cause Siddhartha was not The Last Prophet :)
 
The question is too small minded. It could be considered similar to a fly asking a spider why he bothers to spin a web that could be washed away by a storm.

That would be true if one day the spider proclaimed that the web they've just finished was the last web they'd ever spin and it would be protected for eternity from any future storms.
 
[MENTION=42489]Black Zero[/MENTION]

I dont understand the superman comparison.
Let me use an example to explain my point.

A man witnesses some event. He tells about it to a person he meets. 10 years later the same person tells the same story to another person. 20 years later he tells the same story to the third person.

Who among the three is more likely to remember the story correctly?

Here we are not taking into account that the three persons would have told the story to other people who would have in turn told it to others. hence it is highly likely that the story that came down from the first two people to next generations would have developed more inconsistencies and false attributes as compared to the story that came down from the third source. This, purely because the third source is comparatively recent.
 
That would be true if one day the spider proclaimed that the web they've just finished was the last web they'd ever spin and it would be protected for eternity from any future storms.

It would all be irrelevant anyway because the spider would eat the fly still stuck in the web and then wait for the next fly to come along.
 
[MENTION=42489]Black Zero[/MENTION]

I dont understand the superman comparison.
Let me use an example to explain my point.

A man witnesses some event. He tells about it to a person he meets. 10 years later the same person tells the same story to another person. 20 years later he tells the same story to the third person.

Who among the three is more likely to remember the story correctly?

Here we are not taking into account that the three persons would have told the story to other people who would have in turn told it to others. hence it is highly likely that the story that came down from the first two people to next generations would have developed more inconsistencies and false attributes as compared to the story that came down from the third source. This, purely because the third source is comparatively recent.

In that logic Sikhism should be followed its recent as well and not corrupted? And isn't Hadith being passed down rather being the direct words? I know Quranists is a fancy word but tbh I have found them to be very clear headed probably coz the same reason as you mention,but that's just my opinion.
 
I'm not really educated on this, but I'll give it a shot.

The prophets sent to the other parts of the world weren't as good as the ones in Middle East.

I think Buddha was a prophet of Allah, but the Indians corrupted his message just like the Christians corrupted Jesus (pbuh)'s message. Remember, Buddhism has a lot of similarities with Islam.

Very good question man. I never thought about this.

What are the similarities between Buddhism and Islam? No offense but the basic premise of Buddhism differs massively from Islam,even if its being corrupted no one would corrupt the base of the teachings.
 
The story of Noah and the great flood is found in cultures all over the world. From South America to Australia.

The Sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh dates back nearly 5,000 years and is thought to be perhaps the oldest written tale on the planet. In it, there is an account of the great sage Utnapishtim, who is warned of an imminent flood to be unleashed by wrathful gods. He builds a vast circular-shaped boat, reinforced with tar and pitch, that carries his relatives, grains and animals. After enduring days of storms, Utnapishtim, like Noah in Genesis, releases a bird in search of dry land.

Myriad ancient cultures have their own legends of watery cataclysm and salvation. According to Vedic lore, a fish tells the mythic Indian king Manu of a flood that will wipe out humanity; Manu then builds a ship to withstand the epic rains and is later led to a mountaintop by the same fish. An Aztec story sees a devout couple hide in the hollow of a vast tree with two ears of corn as divine storms drown the wicked of the land.

The story of Adam and Eve is also found is various historic cultures, The Adapa Epic is a Babylonian story about a man whom many compare with the biblical Adam. In this tale, Adapa was fishing one day in the Persian Gulf when the south wind suddenly overturned his boat. Adapa cursed the wind, breaking one of its wings so that it could not blow for seven days. Hearing of this, Anu, the sky god, summoned Adapa to give account for himself; but before Adapa went, the god Ea (whom Adapa served) instructed him on how to conduct himself in the heavenly court, and warned him that they might offer him the food and water of death, which he must not eat or drink. Adapa followed Ea’s instructions and found favor with Anu, who decided to offer him the food and water of life—which would have conferred immortality. But Adapa heeded Ea’s warning and refused, much to Anu’s astonishment, and was sent back to earth as a mortal to live among mankind, apparently bringing illness to those among whom he lived.

Another similarity between historic cultures and Abrahamic regions is the method of creation. In an Egyptian creation account from Memphis, the god Ptah speaks new things into existence: “All the divine order really came into being through what the heart [of Ptah] thought and the tongue commanded.” This method of creation is certainly in line with the Bible and Qur'an “Let there be,” and is a step above the standard sexual procreation method of creation found elsewhere.

Moreover, the story of Imhotep in ancient egypt is very similar the story of Prophet Younis found in the Qur'an and the bible.

The story of Queen Sheba and Solomon are also found in the Ethiopian holy book - the Kebra Nagast. The book also talks about the the Ark of the Covenant.

There are also some similarities found in the birth legend of Sargon of Akkad with the story of Moses. The legend comes from historic texts written back in the 7th century. Sargon's birth and his early childhood are described thus:

"My mother was a high priestess, my father I knew not. The brothers of my father loved the hills. My city is Azupiranu, which is situated on the banks of the Euphrates. My high priestess mother conceived me, in secret she bore me. She set me in a basket of rushes, with bitumen she sealed my lid. She cast me into the river which rose over me. The river bore me up and carried me to Akki, the drawer of water. Akki, the drawer of water, took me as his son and reared me. Akki, the drawer of water, appointed me as his gardener. While I was a gardener, Ishtar granted me her love, and for four and ... years I exercised kingship."

I could keep writing on this topic but the point is that there are similar stories as to the ones found in Abrahamic Relions in various historical cultures around the world. Now, you could look at this two ways. One could be that we find similar stories in historic cultures around the world because God had sent Prophets all over the world who told the same stories or the other way to look at it is that Abrahamic Religions plagiarized from these other historic cultures.

Top post and very well written.

When I used to be religious I used to ask religious people not only what you wrote above but also why are there so many things similar in Christianity and Islam even though the former was before Islam, the reply I would get was ''they were all Muslim'' to which I'd respond that there is no evidence in either written history or archialogical evidence of Islam before 600AD anywhere and the reply I'd get is ''they were Muslim but their message got corrupted''. Nothing beyond that.

Ofcourse the simple truth is that every religion copied the other and yet they all claim to be ''source''.
 
In that logic Sikhism should be followed its recent as well and not corrupted? And isn't Hadith being passed down rather being the direct words? I know Quranists is a fancy word but tbh I have found them to be very clear headed probably coz the same reason as you mention,but that's just my opinion.

I was talking specifically about the story of floods which is mentioned in most religions of the world in one form or the other as mentioned by the posters above.

I dont know much about Quranists but muslims who reject hadiths? Very controversial topic.
 
I was talking specifically about the story of floods which is mentioned in most religions of the world in one form or the other as mentioned by the posters above.

I dont know much about Quranists but muslims who reject hadiths? Very controversial topic.

I don't understand how someone can be a Quranist tbf...because there is verse after verse in the Quran asking Muslims to obey Allah AND his Messenger...the Quran essentially asks Muslims to follow the hadith...

The problem though with hadith is it's collation is based on a human science...determining the strength of a hadith is based on things such as trustworthiness of the narrator which is reliant on human interpretation and therefore far from being foolproof...
 
Isn't the fact that there are several flood stories out there from different cultures reinforcive of the theory that some great world flood event really did happen and that it's only the various fringe details that got distorted over the centuries ? We just have to find out which is the original accurate version.
I believe it is Genesis :)
 
I was talking specifically about the story of floods which is mentioned in most religions of the world in one form or the other as mentioned by the posters above.

I dont know much about Quranists but muslims who reject hadiths? Very controversial topic.

Coz floods were common after the ice age,so its not a shock people made stories around it no way it means they are on similar lines.

Buddhism,Sikhism,Jainism have no mention of them because they probably are newer religions without being derived from mythical stories as such.
 
[MENTION=42489]Black Zero[/MENTION]

I dont understand the superman comparison.
Let me use an example to explain my point.

A man witnesses some event. He tells about it to a person he meets. 10 years later the same person tells the same story to another person. 20 years later he tells the same story to the third person.

Who among the three is more likely to remember the story correctly?

Here we are not taking into account that the three persons would have told the story to other people who would have in turn told it to others. hence it is highly likely that the story that came down from the first two people to next generations would have developed more inconsistencies and false attributes as compared to the story that came down from the third source. This, purely because the third source is comparatively recent.

This is a fact that distortion happens with time, however if distortion happens to this extent that it loses the core essence of the original message and we do not have evidence of original story. Then this highly distorted story is irrelevant.

Noah story revloves around Noah and God, Australian story revolves around frog.
In Noah's story, humanity got corrupted and as punishment God sent the flood, in Australian story, animals wanted water as land was dry.

Clearly, two different stories.

You will find stories related to flood, hunger, love, revenge, sacrifice etc in every region, but imagining that Sohni Mahiwal is distorted version of Laila majnoo, in not the correct approach.
 
Coz floods were common after the ice age,so its not a shock people made stories around it no way it means they are on similar lines.

Buddhism,Sikhism,Jainism have no mention of them because they probably are newer religions without being derived from mythical stories as such.

Totally agree about your first point.

Judaism (8/7 BCE) is actually not that old if we compare it to Buddhism (6/4 BCE).
 
This is a fact that distortion happens with time, however if distortion happens to this extent that it loses the core essence of the original message and we do not have evidence of original story. Then this highly distorted story is irrelevant.

Noah story revloves around Noah and God, Australian story revolves around frog.
In Noah's story, humanity got corrupted and as punishment God sent the flood, in Australian story, animals wanted water as land was dry.

Clearly, two different stories.

You will find stories related to flood, hunger, love, revenge, sacrifice etc in every region, but imagining that Sohni Mahiwal is distorted version of Laila majnoo, in not the correct approach.

Coz floods were common after the ice age,so its not a shock people made stories around it no way it means they are on similar lines.

There is an alternate explanation for almost everything. So it all comes down to what YOU want to believe.

Buddhism,Sikhism,Jainism have no mention of them because they probably are newer religions without being derived from mythical stories as such.

Older religions have been derived from one set of stories and newer ones from another set? Nothing like God's message? Oooooh :yk
 
There is an alternate explanation for almost everything. So it all comes down to what YOU want to believe.



Older religions have been derived from one set of stories and newer ones from another set? Nothing like God's message? Oooooh :yk

I'm borderline agnostic mate with fear of God,Buddhism-Jainism hardly tells us any bygone era tales those are two dharmic religions which imo start at that point of time and both almost reject the idea of creator as such,so God's message doesn't hold the value thereby un-derived religion.
 
There is an alternate explanation for almost everything. So it all comes down to what YOU want to believe.



Older religions have been derived from one set of stories and newer ones from another set? Nothing like God's message? Oooooh :yk

Nothing left to believe, I accept what evidence tells me.

If one wants to believe something, then confirmation bias comes in to play.
 
Totally agree about your first point.

Judaism (8/7 BCE) is actually not that old if we compare it to Buddhism (6/4 BCE).

True but they don't carry the baggage of older religions meaning mythological tales,Sikhisim probably does but Jainism-Buddhism don't.
 
Every religion has been corrupted by the powers-that-be at different points in their existence, simply to further their personal socio-political agendas. Be it the Abrahamic faiths Dharmic faiths or whatever.

Islam and Christianity are the major religions plainly because they were backed by the most powerful political/economic forces in their times ( European imperialists, Mongol/persian conquerors in the past & US/EU soft power & Gulf oil money of the present ).

Even a relatively simplistic & non-expansionist religion like Budhism had it's greatest period of growth under Ashokas empire (where it spread through India and South asia) and due to the South Indian empires(Cholas , Cheras & Pandyas) that had considerable influence over South Asia.

So the "True message "that each faithful thinks his faith has is simply the better promoted/marketed one in a nutshell.
 
[MENTION=107753]uberkoen[/MENTION]

Informative post, thank you. An in-depth response was what I was looking for, but I have a few questions/queries:

You stated that the story of Noah's flood was there in South America and Australia. However, do they predate the Abrahamic faiths? What are the sources of those stories and from where were they derived? Where are the scriptures/teachings, and what happened to the people who believed in these stories?

I won't look too much into the Egyptian and Sumerian examples because of the Middle Eastern influence, but I'm certainly interested in the South American and Australian examples because that is what I'm looking for. I'm interested in looking beyond the Middle Eastern/Arabian monopoly on the prophetic stories.
 
Firstly I wouldn't bother so much with that number...224,000 is also mentioned in some places...in general the hadith in question are considered to be weak...not sahih...

It is however true that God claims to have left every civilisation a Prophet or Messenger...

There never was a people without a Warner having lived among them' 35:24

'And certainly We sent Messengers before you; there are some of them that We have mentioned to you and there are others whom we have not mentioned to you.' 40:78

The most famous monotheistic religion that predates the Abrahamic faiths is Zorostrianism...its also argued that it doesn't predate Judaism but that's another topic...

There is no doubt that every civilisation has had some form of belief system...the question that I guess needs to be raised is whether non-monotheistic religions can come from an Abrahamic God?...

Elijah fighting Baal would seem to suggest not...

I personally don't believe the 124,000 figure, which is why I stated that 'as per popular Islamic belief'.
 
We are talking about thousands of year's history. It is quite possible that some facts got eroded and some incorrect things got incorporated in the actual story.

This is the type of convenient justification an reasoning that I'm not looking for and prompted me to create a thread on this topic on PP.
 
Geographical origins can be isolated and based in comparatively similar geographical locations, but teaching are actually quite similar to ancient Greek philosopher and polymath Aristotle, and the 2nd century physician and philosopher Galen.

Yes they can be isolated, but prophets used to talk about previous prophets and messengers. Surely, if they were sent to every corner of the world, the prophetic stories would have emerged in different parts of the world as well, rather than be predominantly limited to the Middle East/Arab world.
 
They were sent to many nations but they are not necessarily known by the same names in those nations as they are in Arabic peninsula. As simple as that.

I'm not interested in names, but an explanation on the Middle Eastern monopoly on prophetic stories. I don't care what Moses, Abraham, Adam, Noah, Jacob, Joseph, Soloman etc. etc. were called in the subcontinent or Europe or North America or South America, but if prophets were sent to all these places, then surely their stories would have emerged in these regions as well and not just the Middle East.
 
As I said in the OP, it is not just the prophetic stories but the religions of those prophets as well. Why didn't their religions survive like Judaism and Christianity? Their scriptures were also corrupted, yet they stood the test of time. The fact that Abrahamic faiths only survived in the Middle East certainly adds weight to the argument that Christianity was plagiarized from Judaism and Islam was plagiarized from Christianity.
 
I'm not interested in names, but an explanation on the Middle Eastern monopoly on prophetic stories. I don't care what Moses, Abraham, Adam, Noah, Jacob, Joseph, Soloman etc. etc. were called in the subcontinent or Europe or North America or South America, but if prophets were sent to all these places, then surely their stories would have emerged in these regions as well and not just the Middle East.

The stories of all the 1.24 lakh prophets havent been talked about by Abrahamic religions of middle east. Its just mentioned that prophets were sent to all nations. How do we know that the stories of great men which have emerged from all these nations aren't actually stories of prophets?
 
[MENTION=131678]Madplayer[/MENTION]

You didn't understand my point. I'm not discounting that the likes of Buddha, or Krishna or Socrates could not have been a few of the supposed 124,000 prophets, but my point is that if prophets were sent to all parts of the world, why is it that religions like the Abrahamic faiths didn't develop in other parts of the world? Not even one?

Let's say a religion in Argentina which would have been similar to Judaism, Christianity and Islam, and would have had similar common prophetic stories?

Isn't it strange that all the prophets that we know of and the three major Abrahamic faiths all developed in roughly the same region?

In fact if you look into the stories in the Torat, Bible and the Quran, you will not find any stories of the prophets outside the Middle East/Arab world, no stories of prophets in India or Europe or South America, which I find extremely convenient.
 
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Every religion claims to be the truth and every religion is geographically specific.

And the the overwhelming majority of these followers had the belief imposed upon them, some through violence whilst others by influence.

I guess all that death and misery must have been worth it so that the subsequent followers can "go to heaven".
 
Do people feel God has to have had a consistent message?...

Or the same one?...or is it ok for him to introduce prophets and messengers with completely different messages?...
 
Do people feel God has to have had a consistent message?...

Or the same one?...or is it ok for him to introduce prophets and messengers with completely different messages?...

You mean a message that suits their needs at the time?

Like conquer this land for me (I mean God), I have to marry all the women, slavery is approved by God etc...
 
[MENTION=131678]Madplayer[/MENTION]

You didn't understand my point. I'm not discounting that the likes of Buddha, or Krishna or Socrates could not have been a few of the supposed 124,000 prophets, but my point is that if prophets were sent to all parts of the world, why is it that religions like the Abrahamic faiths didn't develop in other parts of the world? Not even one?

Let's say a religion in Argentina which would have been similar to Judaism, Christianity and Islam, and would have had similar common prophetic stories?

Isn't it strange that all the prophets that we know of and the three major Abrahamic faiths all developed in roughly the same region?

In fact if you look into the stories in the Torat, Bible and the Quran, you will not find any stories of the prophets outside the Middle East/Arab world, no stories of prophets in India or Europe or South America, which I find extremely convenient.

I don't buy the logic that Krishna or Buddha or any other Asian Gods as Prophets.

Krishna worshipped Idols, was a veggie and had a lot of love interests without marriage. He would have been considered a Kafir to the maximum extent as per Quranic rules.

Coming to the point of not finding any stories of Prophets outside of Arab land, I doubt Arabs knew that South America, North America and Australia even existed. Most might not even have known the lands of modern day Japan, Korea, Indonesia etc. So its not surprising that no stories exists.

Not just Arabs. Look at Indian philospophy and scriptures. No where you will see the mention of anyone outside of Akhand Bharat Lands. The farther they give description is the lands of Afghanistan and may be Iran. No mention of Arabs or Africans or Americans or Australians.

Religion is always a localized one. The concept of God/Religion was created by people with very little knowledge of the the world. If anyone dare asks tough questions, they would have been shut by saying God did it or it was written in the book.
 
You mean a message that suits their needs at the time?

Like conquer this land for me (I mean God), I have to marry all the women, slavery is approved by God etc...

I was thinking more along the lines of the fact that even the Abrahamic religions are very different...

The Abrahamic religions have all been lumped together as if they are one but in actuality i'd say Islam and Judaism are fairly similar...the fact that Christianity recognises the Trinity is a big departure from Judaism and isn't remotely similar to Islam...
 
Once I heard a joke in late night show, that given the proximity of the three major prophets from 3 Abrahimic religion, it like they went to the same high-school.

Anyways, I am an atheist and I do believe that religion is a very hard thing to explain to someone who is willing to think critically. Specially given the fact that Quran is absolute makes is harder and harder to explain and accept as the society makes progress. What was acceptable 1400 years ago is no longer applicable today. It is no surprise that the land which gave all the major prophets and religion has probably the least number of nobel laureates because religion only slows progress .
 
Once I heard a joke in late night show, that given the proximity of the three major prophets from 3 Abrahimic religion, it like they went to the same high-school.

Anyways, I am an atheist and I do believe that religion is a very hard thing to explain to someone who is willing to think critically. Specially given the fact that Quran is absolute makes is harder and harder to explain and accept as the society makes progress.

What was acceptable 1400 years ago is no longer applicable today. It is no surprise that the land which gave all the major prophets and religion has probably the least number of nobel laureates because religion only slows progress .


Someone who is Professor at Princeton University, was named amongst World's Top 25 under 40 Economists of the world goes to White House gives " Aazaan " call to prayer like a " Moazzan " and prays there.


And you say Islam is not compatable.


Why didn't Islam and Islamic practice stop him from doing Bachelors & Masters from MIT ?

Why didn't Islam stop him from becoming Professor of Princeton University ?
 
Someone who is Professor at Princeton University, was named amongst World's Top 25 under 40 Economists of the world goes to White House gives " Aazaan " call to prayer like a " Moazzan " and prays there.


And you say Islam is not compatable.


Why didn't Islam and Islamic practice stop him from doing Bachelors & Masters from MIT ?

Why didn't Islam stop him from becoming Professor of Princeton University ?

Would you ever agree to marrying your daughter as soon as she reaches puberty (10-12 years old)?
Would you punish an adulterer with stoning even if she agrees to her crime?
Would you deny evolution?
would you deny the fact that the best muslim scientist in the last century Dr Abdus Salam is disliked by majority in Pakistan because he is not a Sunni or Shia Muslim?

and there are plenty more... anyways, this is not the topic of the thread so lets not discuss this here...

And finally, me saying all this probably makes me a blasphamer and hence deserving of a death penalty.
 
1. Would you ever agree to marrying your daughter as soon as she reaches puberty (10-12 years old)?
Look. There is no Prophet out there in the world. If a Prophet asks for my daughter's hand than

a. I will assume that Prophet is not demanding something unislamic or un-ethical
b. I will say Yes if my daughter agrees. If she says No than I will say No.


Now let us not get into Hazrat Ayesha RA debate. There is no evidence that She RA was 9 or 10 at that time and had just reached puberty. This is not the reality. It can be adressed in other thread if the forum rules permit.



Since there is no Prophet out there so in case anybody asks for my daughters hand at 10-12 I will say No straightaway. She will be too young, she needs to complete her education, be sensible enough, mature enough to make decision of her life as per her will and wish when she grows up. I, my future wife and her siblings or relatives can only advice. Decision will be her's as per Islamic teachings.



2. Would you punish an adulterer with stoning even if she agrees to her crime?
Ans is NO. Sorry this is not my choice infact again Islam's teaching.

a. Islam does not prescribe stonning for any sin or crime. Not even for treason.

b. Surah e Noor verse 4 gives clear guidelines for punishment of an adulterer or adulteress, forcinator or fornicatress. What is that punishment ? Its 100 lashes.

c. At another place in the quran it is prescribed that if a slave commits adultery He, She is given half the punishment. Now if stonning or stonning to death is the punishment of adultery (which is not) than what would be half ie 50 % of stonning or stonning to death ? Does it make any sense ? Even one stone hit on the head can cause death so what is half of death ?

This clearly means that half punishment would be 50 lashes.



Why punishment ? Chastity has a very high place in Islamic moral code and when people deviate from these bounds and limitations which are set to safeguard the wholesomeness of society than punishment is prescribed.


3. Would you deny evolution ?
I do not deny evolution neither Islam denies evolution. Neither Islam asks me to deny evolution. Evolution is a proven fact. If as a Muslim I am not willing to accept that Man evolved from Apes than it does not mean that I cannot become an evolutionary biologist and cannot become a scientist.

4. Would you deny the fact that the best muslim scientist in the last century Dr Abdus Salam is disliked by majority in Pakistan because he is not a Sunni or Shia Muslim ?

It is a fact and I do not deny it. If he is liked by Sunni Muslims or Shia Muslims than it does not mean that Islam or Science stops there. I am a Pakistani and I know that any hardcore Shia or Sunni Muslim will definitely dislike rather hate Dr Abdus Salaam. From hardcore I mean practicing muslims who are in touch with mosques and religious scholars. But again Islam is not at fault those who are religious leaders 99.9 % of them would spew such venom against Dr Salam's faith that they are made to believe that Salam and his faith fellows were and are biggest enemies of Islam and biggest blasphemers of Prophet Pbuh on Earth.

While any support Salaam would get in Pakistan would be from Aethiests, Agnostics, Liberals, Secular minded, semi practicing Muslims and a minority moderate muslims community from each group which weighs very very less.


So identify those whom He Pbuh called " Ulema e Soo " , challenge their doctrines. Target them not Islam.



and there are plenty more... anyways, this is not the topic of the thread so lets not discuss this here...

And finally, me saying all this probably makes me a blasphamer and hence deserving of a death penalty.


First of all raising questions is not blasphemy. Islam does not keep anyone a Muslim because of sword or weapen or death threat. There is no compulsion in religion. Secondly Islam does not keep anyone soft spoken , righteous, obedient, well mannered because of fear of sword or fear of death. Islam is the name of a code of life which when implemented makes you a better human being for your family, cummunity and society and gets you closer and closer to God to eventually experience HIS existence ie to develop living relationship with GOD as a result of obeying his commands and guidelines. This process does not stop you from achieving pinnacle of success in worldly life.


No Worldly punishment of Apostasy or Blasphemy. Allah has taken these subjects in his hands and he will decide fate of such persons as per his judgement.
 
First of all raising questions is not blasphemy. Islam does not keep anyone a Muslim because of sword or weapen or death threat. There is no compulsion in religion. Secondly Islam does not keep anyone soft spoken , righteous, obedient, well mannered because of fear of sword or fear of death. Islam is the name of a code of life which when implemented makes you a better human being for your family, cummunity and society and gets you closer and closer to God to eventually experience HIS existence ie to develop living relationship with GOD as a result of obeying his commands and guidelines. This process does not stop you from achieving pinnacle of success in worldly life.


No Worldly punishment of Apostasy or Blasphemy. Allah has taken these subjects in his hands and he will decide fate of such persons as per his judgement.


First of all raising questions is not blasphemy. Islam does not keep anyone a Muslim because of sword or weapen or death threat. There is no compulsion in religion. Secondly Islam does not keep anyone soft spoken , righteous, obedient, well mannered because of fear of sword or fear of death. Islam is the name of a code of life which when implemented makes you a better human being for your family, cummunity and society and gets you closer and closer to God to eventually experience HIS existence ie to develop living relationship with GOD as a result of obeying his commands and guidelines. This process does not stop you from achieving pinnacle of success in worldly life.


No Worldly punishment of Apostasy or Blasphemy. Allah has taken these subjects in his hands and he will decide fate of such persons as per his judgement.

First and foremost, Thanks for being sensible and answering it truthfully and not resorting to abuse.

1/

First thing first, To make the long story short, Islam permits minors to be married which is completely unacceptable under any circumstances in modern society. It is not only "Your girl" who would be considered too young at the age of 10-12 but it would be "all the girls in this entire world" who would be considered too young by anybody and everybody except some pervs and Islamic scholars. Unfortunately Islam does not protect these minors. Hence 1400 year old rules not acceptable in modern times.

2/ Is stoning an acceptable form of punishment in Islam?
a/If it is Not, than I take back my statement,
b/ if it is than for any crimes, such sadistic form of punishment is not applicable in modern times.

Also punishment for apostasy is death (again correct me if I am wrong).
In modern times, people have the right to choose and live by their own standard as long as they are not harming another person. The 1400 year old law does not believe in that free will.

3/Evolution: What you are suggesting is wrong, It does not make sense for me to be an imam and teach people religion if I am an atheist myself. Yes I can do it technically but that is crazy.

Finally, you might call this an healthy discussion, but there are plenty in strict muslim majority countries who would agree I am committing blasphemy by simply asking some valid questions. And in those muslim countries the punishment would also be strict. Hence there should always be secular laws since 1400 year islamic laws makes little sense.
 
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First and foremost, Thanks for being sensible and answering it truthfully and not resorting to abuse.

That is my human aswell as religious responsibility.

1/

First thing first, To make the long story short, Islam permits minors to be married which is completely unacceptable under any circumstances in modern society. It is not only "Your girl" who would be considered too young at the age of 10-12 but it would be "all the girls in this entire world" who would be considered too young by anybody and everybody except some pervs and Islamic scholars. Unfortunately Islam does not protect these minors. Hence 1400 year old rules not acceptable in modern times.


Islam is not the name of a machine or a Man. If people do not follow Islam do unethical unislamic things and say that Islam permits them to do it than it is their fault and not Islam's fault. I can only condemn them and can raise voice against them and point out to them what I feel or believe Islam is. Every religion got corrupted after time, every religious stream degenerated with time. In every religion there were adulterations. Today I am telling you few things only because Quran is in original form and my tool is quran and my actions. Had there been no Quran or a corrupted Quran (Naoozbillah) I would not have been able to defy stoning or stoning is death as an Unislamic practice.


2/ Is stoning an acceptable form of punishment in Islam?
No, stoning in any case is not acceptable form of punishment in Islam.

a/If it is Not, than I take back my statement,
Thanks. JazaakALLAH if you can I shall be grateful.

b/ if it is than for any crimes, such sadistic form of punishment is not applicable in modern times.
Islam is was will not be time barred. Any religion which is time barred, not suitable for certain times is not good enough and I will be first person to leave such a religion. Stoning is and was never a punishment for any crime/sin.


Now anyone can jump in this debate and say He Pbuh administered this punishment to these people. So see. They were two Jews who presented themselves infront of He Pbuh themselves and asked for punishment. At that time Surah e Noor adressing this issue wasn't revealed. So He Pbuh said that we will implement Torah's punishment. The couple agreed. It is Torah's ruling ie Stonning for adultery.

After Surah e Noor was revealed on Muslim's Surah e Noor's punishmnent of 100 Lashed was implemented while the christians and jews were asked whether they want Torah's punishment or the islamic punishment ? In a Muslim State they preferred Islamic punishment of lashes.

Now some one will again jump in and name a muslim who was stonned to death. Again this happened before Surah e Noor was revealed. He himself came and admitted. first time he admitted He Pbuh turned his head to right ignored him meaning go. 2nt time he admitted He Pbuh turned his head to left side meaning go. Third time again meaning leave as if I did not listen. He knew what was happening but he did not go. fourth time he admitted again. Than He Pbuh said I allowed you to go but now that you presented f4 evidences yourself so you will be stonned. Sahaba RA told He pbuh that we were aiming stones at him and after few he was trying to run away. He Pbuh said you should have allowed him to go. So it was not a mistake Islam made. Not a mistake He Pbuh made. Those who were administering the punishment made a mistake.


4 witness's rule in itself gives you an idea that if someone is doing it in closed doors than He She will get away. And how hard it is to present 4 witnesses in such a case ? That too islam say's they should be the ones with good repute in society and should be rendered as honest clean indivisuals.


Furthermore if this Sin is done openly than Islamic system of Chastity and its pillars will be shaken hence 4 witnesses rule.



Than there is another narration where He Pbuh said that when a muslim commits adultery He becomes non believer. Now see. There is always room for repentence. When a believer becomes non believer he isnt killed in Islam. Because Quran clearly mentions in a verse


Those who believe, then disbelieve, then again believe, then disbelieve and thereafter go on increasing in disbelief, Allah will never forgive them, nor guide them to any way of deliverance (4:137).


So as per He Pbuh's saying an adulterer or adultress becomes non believer after commiting this sin unless they have repentance and seek forgivess from Allah and come back to belief again as changed reformed forgiven by Allah. So if you are going to stone them to death than how will they have a chance to believe again ?


Also punishment for apostasy is death (again correct me if I am wrong).
In modern times, people have the right to choose and live by their own standard as long as they are not harming another person. The 1400 year old law does not believe in that free will.

There is no worldly punishment for Apostasy. Islam does not like to keep anyone Muslim because of life threat. Islam needs muslims who are Muslim from heart and soul, from free will. Islam does not require Muslims who only claim they are muslim because they fear of being killed if they denouce Islam.


Then it is said: Those who believe, then disbelieve, then again believe, then disbelieve and thereafter go on increasing in disbelief, Allah will never forgive them, nor guide them to any way of deliverance (4:137).

This verse proclaims that everyone has been given the choice to accept Islam of his own free will. Every door for entry into the circle of Islam is open for every person. It has also been proclaimed that it is possible for everyone to depart from Islam by any of the doors that provide entry into Islam and to proclaim his disbelief and his apostacy. Thus as the doors of entry into the circle of Islam are open for everyone, the doors of egress from Islam are also open. After a person departs from Islam the question arises, is it possible for him, under the teachings of Islam, to repent and to return to Islam? This verse lays down that if a person who has believed in Islam announces that he has turned away from Islam and denies God and the Holy Prophet, peace be on him, and thereafter God Almighty provides him with the opportunity to believe once more, and having believed again he re-enters the circle of Islam there is nothing to stop him from doing so. The doors of his entry into the circle of Islam are open to him as they were open to him the first time. He becomes a Muslim again. Thereafter if he is again overtaken by misfortune and announces that he has turned away from Islam and denies God Almighty and the Holy Prophet, peace be on him, he is free to do so a second time, and is not subject to any restriction, for there is no compulsion; there is freedom of conscience and freedom of belief. If he disbelieves again and goes on advancing in disbelief and does not repent, Allah would not forgive such a one, nor would guide him to any way of deliverance. He would achieve no spiritual success.

Again it is said: Those who disbelieve after having believed and continue to advance in disbelief, their repentance would not be accepted. Those are they who have gone utterly astray (3:90).

The immediately following verse clears up that which has not been expressly set out in this verse. It says:

From anyone of those who have disbelieved, and die while they are disbelievers, there shall not be accepted even an earthful of gold, though he offer it in ransom. For them there shall be a grievous punishment, and they shall have no helpers (3:91).

This makes it clear that repentance and the opening of the door of God's mercy in this context mean repentance in this life.

All this makes it quite clear that Islam has guaranteed freedom of conscience and freedom of belief, and has announced in the plainest terms that so far as faith is concerned everyone is answerable to God Almighty alone. The Holy Prophet, peace be on him, was commanded to proclaim that he had not been appointed a keeper over the people, nor had he been made responsible for them. No one has been made responsible for another's faith. Everyone is responsible for himself. No one can be compelled to become a Muslim, nor can anyone be expelled from Islam by compulsion.

There is no compulsion whatever in Islam. So far as the Holy Quran is concerned there. is no text, no verse, not a single word that prescribes any worldly, political or administrative punishment for apostacy. There have been cases in Muslim history in which a person became an apostate, murdered Muslims and was guilty of armed rebellion. Allover the world a murderer forfeits his life, and armed rebellion is put down with the use of force. If a person is guilty of apostacy, that is to say, voluntarily announces his repudiation of Islam and takes up the sword to kill Muslims, murders them and is punished with death or is suppressed by the sword, it does not at all mean that he is put to death because of his repudiation of Islam. The penalty for the offences committed by such people, irrespective of their apostacy, is death. In such a case it cannot be said that they are punished for their apostacy. Their punishment would have been the same even if there had been no question of apostacy.




3/Evolution: What you are suggesting is wrong, It does not make sense for me to be an imam and teach people religion if I am an atheist myself. Yes I can do it technically but that is crazy.


Well If any Imam is trying to be teaching genetics or evolutionary biology than I condemn him. That is not his domain. But he has the right to believe that human species evolved intra specie. He cannot deny evolution. If he does than he contradicts not only science but Quran aswell. Still science is not his domain. Still this disagreement of not originating from Apes should not hinder growth of a Muslim Bio-Medical science student.



Finally, you might call this an healthy discussion, but there are plenty in strict muslim majority countries who would agree I am committing blasphemy by simply asking some valid questions. And in those muslim countries the punishment would also be strict. Hence there should always be secular laws since 1400 year islamic laws makes little sense.

Asking questions is not blasphemy. Any country who says its blasphemy is lying or doesn't know what blasphemy is. Islam does not prescribe any worldly punishment for blasphemy. Blasphemy laws are inhumane unislamic laws.

Since there is no Islamic government in any country and the systems are either Democracy, Monarchy etc so Yes Laws should be secular. Even Islamic Sharia allows asking questions. And As per Islam state cannot interfere in the religion or no religion of any community or indivisual. So even in an Islamic government a christian, jew, hindu, buddhist, sikh, agnostic, aethiest can live there life as per their religion or no religion. They just have to obey rules of state which don't hinder other groups or religions rights, obligations or collective security and peace of the state.
 
The three main Abrahamic religions - Christianity, Islam and Judaism - all originated in the Arabian Peninsula. The three religion share similarities because they believe in the common prophets and stories, i.e. the creation of man/Adam and Eve, Noah's Flood, Abraham and the sacrifice of Isaac, Moses and his miracles etc.

My question is, as per popular Islamic belief, 124,000 prophets were sent to every part of the world, why don't we have other religions which has the same common stories and prophets as the three Abrahamic religions?

Why didn't a religion develop in let's say Latin America or India or Europe, that also believes in Noah, Moses or Jacob, or how Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit and were banished to earth?

Prophets are sent for the guidance and reformation of Nations. They are neither banished to earth, nor they are sent to barren lands with No Homo Sapiens.


Quran uses word " Adam " Inter changebly for two
1. Adam (evolved Human Being ie Homo Sapien)
2. Hazrat Adam AS (Prophet)



In the story of Adam and Eve the Adam in question is Hazrat Adam AS.



Evolutionary process had got so far that Human race (Man) was now capable of receiving guidance which distinguish between right and wrong, previously he was going through developing stage, he was developing in that respect so before he could not have understood guidance and was not able to distinguish between right and wrong but now the evolutionary process had come to a peak in that sense that physically and mentally Man had developed to what we are today and he was able to comprehend the guidance that was sent to him. This is when Allah raised amongst already existing Adams, First Prophet Hazrat Adam AS.

In Surah e Baqarah what does Allah says ?

" I am going to raise a Succesor "


A SUCESSOR is someone who comes after. He is not the first one.


Again I reiterate there is no need to raise a Prophet in a Barren land with no Homo Sapiens.






What happened to the teaching and followers of those prophets, and why did they all wipe out and only the three Abrahamic religions that all originated in the Arabian Peninsula, survived?

How come there is no holy book/scripture that originated outside the Arab world/Middle East but has striking similarities with the Bible, Torah and the Quran?

This isn't a rhetorical question and I'm open to any convincing explanation. However, I have discussed this point with quite a few people and scholars in Pakistan, UK and the U.S., and I have yet to come across any justification/explanation that can be deemed as satisfactory.

In my opinion, it really adds a lot of weight to the Atheist argument that these three faiths are nothing but Arabian inventions where Christianity was plagiarized from Judaism and Islam was plagiarized from Christianity, because the explanation that the other prophets fizzled out and only the Arabian prophets and teaching survived seems very simplistic and convenient to make sense.

There are a lot of students of comparative religion on this forum so I am interested in their views and explanations.



The Prophets of Other Religions

As you have discussed about the prophets of the Bible and the Quran so your query is about the the Prophets of other religions and nations

According to the Quran, God has sent His messengers to every nation:

"There is not a people but a Warner has gone among them" (35:25)
"For every nation there is a Messenger" (10:48)



The Muslims, therefore, believe that earlier religions were also founded by God's messengers. Their teachings, however, were corrupted by their followers over the course of time. Below are given the names of some of the founders of other religions who could be equated to the prophets of the Quran and the Bible.

1. Luqman: mentioned in the Quran by name but his territory is
unknown. According to some scholars he was the
Greek "Aesop" while according to others he was a
Prophet in Abyssinia. Luqman does not correspond to
any Biblical prophet.

Zoroaster The founder of Zoroastrianism, an ancient religion of
Iran. Zoroaster's period is roughly placed at around
1500 B.C.

Krishna Krishna is known among the Hindus as an "Avatar"
Ram Chandar or a manifestation of God. It appears that both
Krishna and Ram Chandar were the Hindu equivalent
of the Quranic nabis. They, however, were not the
founders of the Hindu religion.

Mahavira Founder of Jainism, Mahavira lived in India in the
sixth century B.C. He tried to abolish the caste system
that existed in Hinduism.

Buddha Siddhartha Gautama Buddha was the founder of the
Buddhist faith. He lived in India in the sixth
Century B.C. The word 'Buddha' means the Enlightened
One.

Confucius: Founder of Confucianism, a Chinese religion.
Confucius lived in China in the fifth century B.C. His
teachings placed great emphasis on social ethics.

Lao Tze: The founder of the Tao religion of China who lived in
the sixth century B.C.



Now your immediate question will be how these people are estimated as Prophets. Well Allah lays a very hard principle for Khaatam an Nabee-een Pbuh in Surah e AL-Haaqa.

Allah says that if he Mohammad Pbuh would have associated something with me which I did not tell him than I would have cut his Life artery and would have given him death there and than. Many Ahl e Sunnat Islamic Scholars of pre 1800 have called this verse of Quran as " Qandeel e Sadaqat " barrometer of judging any claimant of Prophethood's claim as true or false.

They say it this was the criteria for He Pbuh than it applies on all claimants of Prophethood.



When Allah kills the imposter He also destroys his legacy and followers and they become extinct within few years as if they never existed.


If you look at today's Hindus and Budhmatt's they in itself are a proof. There numbers and existence that what Allah's rules of segregation of True from false are they followers of Krishna and Budh As cannot be dumped in false category. Allah did not crush the claimant's chain and legacy.



You replied to [MENTION=138254]Syed1[/MENTION] posts and ruled out those as myths of Zakir Naik.


This is a fact that Budh and Krishna Prophecised about coming of He Pbuh. I can quote multiple Prophecies from those religious scriptures. But the point is that none of those prophecies will be literal word to word. None said on that x date in x city x country at x time in x'S home Mohammad Pbuh will get born through this lady X so accept him there and than. Remeber Bible's prophecy about He Pbuh was not direct literal either.


So there were many many Christians, Hindus, Budhists etc who accepted He Pbuh and Islam as they thought than as per there minds Prophecies regarding He Pbuh coming have been fulfilled so they accepted Him Pbuh. Some righteous people of those faiths were also guided by Allah.


So question is Can an Imposter Prophet prophecise about coming of He Pbuh after him ? Ans is No.



Lastly you ll say what sort of Prophet is a Prophet who himself doesnt believe in Allah's One-ness ?

Well today Christians have a belief of Trinity. Ceratinly Hazrat Eesa As did not tell them about this. Even on day of judgement as per Quran He As will say I did not tell my followers this. After me they developed this belief.


Religions got corrupted.



Modern day Hinduism is not what Krishna preached as per my understanding. Krishna just like first Prophet Adam As preached One-ness of God. A little example,

Krishna for instance, his being called `murli dhar' (flute player). Apparently, the flute is singing the song or creating the music but there is breath behind it. Then he has more hands than ordinary people and he has a body, a well defined body, but instead of two hands he has four hands and he is also known to have possessed wings. Now, what do these symbols, or if they are not symbols, the literal facts indicate, that is the question! As you said, he gave us the glad tiding that every one thousand years `I will reappear in my original form'. Is this the original form of God? Is this the space of human stature, with four arms, he can be confined and then disappear somewhere and then begin to rule from there. This is a very, very limited understanding of the nature of God which he has created. How could Lord Krishna (as) say that? There has to be some misunderstanding of his message or misinterpretation of his words. Such misunderstandings do appear in every religion because of the specific religious terminology. Take, for instance, the use of the word `wings'. The Holy Qur'an also uses the word `wings' in relation to angels. But the Holy Qur'an makes it specifically clear that these are not the `wings' used to fly with, only that the `wings' are indicative of attributes. So, if there are `two arms', the attributes are half the number possessed by a person who has four arms. The angels grew in attributes and in this world, according to the Holy Qur'an, they have four wings. But in the hereafter they will have eight 'wings' and these are all metaphorical terms and figures, let's say. For instance, the Holy Prophet Muhammad (saw) himself is told to lower his 'wing' of mercy over those who believe him. Then the people are told to lower their 'wings' over their parents. So these usages of the same word 'wing' elsewhere in the Qur'an makes it very clear to us that they are just terms which have been misunderstood and misapplied.



There is an example of Zoroaster and Zoroastrianism aswell.
 
[MENTION=131678]Madplayer[/MENTION]

You didn't understand my point. I'm not discounting that the likes of Buddha, or Krishna or Socrates could not have been a few of the supposed 124,000 prophets, but my point is that if prophets were sent to all parts of the world, why is it that religions like the Abrahamic faiths didn't develop in other parts of the world? Not even one?

Let's say a religion in Argentina which would have been similar to Judaism, Christianity and Islam, and would have had similar common prophetic stories?

Isn't it strange that all the prophets that we know of and the three major Abrahamic faiths all developed in roughly the same region?

In fact if you look into the stories in the Torat, Bible and the Quran, you will not find any stories of the prophets outside the Middle East/Arab world, no stories of prophets in India or Europe or South America, which I find extremely convenient.

As muslims we believe that God revealed religion in stages from very simplistic to more advanced just as the understanding of humans evolved and they were ready for more advanced versions of the religion. That could be a reason why religions around the world are different than Abrahamic religions.
 
As muslims we believe that God revealed religion in stages from very simplistic to more advanced just as the understanding of humans evolved and they were ready for more advanced versions of the religion. That could be a reason why religions around the world are different than Abrahamic religions.

And our understanding reached it's zenith 1400 years ago?

Our thinking and understanding hasn't evolved since then?
 
So there has been inconsequential development since?

I would say that God revealed His final word without finding the developments which would take place in future necessary for this revelation. The developments have not been inconsequential in terms of shaping the current state of believers but they would have been inconsequential in terms of shaping the belief even if they were taken into account 1400 years ago by God.
 
I would say that God revealed His final word without finding the developments which would take place in future necessary for this revelation. The developments have not been inconsequential in terms of shaping the current state of believers but they would have been inconsequential in terms of shaping the belief even if they were taken into account 1400 years ago by God.

Just off the top of my head Evolution, mental health, civil liberties, slavery, gender equality, under age marriage, domestic abuse, the world being round, explanation of natural disasters, the understanding of the universe........
 
Also humans have been on this God's green Earth for close to 2 million years. That's a massive time period and the message the prophets must have brought got lost over the years. To put things in perspective Islam came about just 1400 years ago.

1400 is nothing compared to 2 million.

Where did you come up with this number of 2M years??

Homosapiens are not more then 200K years old, that's a stretch too. Hominids, our ansestors were different species, there were 20+ different species between us and Ansestor when we branched off Apes 🦍.

Start of Agriculture era is not more than 20K years old, more like 12-15K.

BTW: All the prophets mentioned in Quran are not only from Arab, but belong to one family, they are all descendent of Ibrahim (off course Adam and Noah are above him).

Prophet Mohammed went out of the way to prove that is he also Ibrahim's descendant. Something must for being prophets.... This was all local culture and traditions, nothing worldwide, forget about universal (concept of universe did not exist at that time) 🙄🙄🙄
 
Pretty much the reason why I believe man invented god , probably the biggest lie ever been told . Thanks to science and technology , we have already seen last of these religion/god's and in less than 100 years you will not find anyone believing this . Be it a Hindu , Muslim or Christian , two generations from now they may laugh at us for killing each other in the name of God .
 
[MENTION=138980]TalentSpotterPk[/MENTION], I don't think Ram or Krishna were Prophets.

Ram had a ton of noble qualities. He prayed to Shiv Linga. I don't think the Quarinic God would have approved that.
Coming to Krishna, there is no way he would be considered a Prophet according to Quran or Bible or Torah. Krishna prayed to Idols, had countless girl friends without marriage and was a total veggie.

Subcontinent religious figures and noble people are very different to Abrahamic religions Prophets. Krishna/Buddha/Nanak/Mahavira never formed a new religion. Their followers started it after their death.
 
The story of Noah and the great flood is found in cultures all over the world. From South America to Australia.

The Sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh dates back nearly 5,000 years and is thought to be perhaps the oldest written tale on the planet. In it, there is an account of the great sage Utnapishtim, who is warned of an imminent flood to be unleashed by wrathful gods. He builds a vast circular-shaped boat, reinforced with tar and pitch, that carries his relatives, grains and animals. After enduring days of storms, Utnapishtim, like Noah in Genesis, releases a bird in search of dry land.

Myriad ancient cultures have their own legends of watery cataclysm and salvation. According to Vedic lore, a fish tells the mythic Indian king Manu of a flood that will wipe out humanity; Manu then builds a ship to withstand the epic rains and is later led to a mountaintop by the same fish. An Aztec story sees a devout couple hide in the hollow of a vast tree with two ears of corn as divine storms drown the wicked of the land.

The story of Adam and Eve is also found is various historic cultures, The Adapa Epic is a Babylonian story about a man whom many compare with the biblical Adam. In this tale, Adapa was fishing one day in the Persian Gulf when the south wind suddenly overturned his boat. Adapa cursed the wind, breaking one of its wings so that it could not blow for seven days. Hearing of this, Anu, the sky god, summoned Adapa to give account for himself; but before Adapa went, the god Ea (whom Adapa served) instructed him on how to conduct himself in the heavenly court, and warned him that they might offer him the food and water of death, which he must not eat or drink. Adapa followed Ea’s instructions and found favor with Anu, who decided to offer him the food and water of life—which would have conferred immortality. But Adapa heeded Ea’s warning and refused, much to Anu’s astonishment, and was sent back to earth as a mortal to live among mankind, apparently bringing illness to those among whom he lived.

Another similarity between historic cultures and Abrahamic regions is the method of creation. In an Egyptian creation account from Memphis, the god Ptah speaks new things into existence: “All the divine order really came into being through what the heart [of Ptah] thought and the tongue commanded.” This method of creation is certainly in line with the Bible and Qur'an “Let there be,” and is a step above the standard sexual procreation method of creation found elsewhere.

Moreover, the story of Imhotep in ancient egypt is very similar the story of Prophet Younis found in the Qur'an and the bible.

The story of Queen Sheba and Solomon are also found in the Ethiopian holy book - the Kebra Nagast. The book also talks about the the Ark of the Covenant.

There are also some similarities found in the birth legend of Sargon of Akkad with the story of Moses. The legend comes from historic texts written back in the 7th century. Sargon's birth and his early childhood are described thus:

"My mother was a high priestess, my father I knew not. The brothers of my father loved the hills. My city is Azupiranu, which is situated on the banks of the Euphrates. My high priestess mother conceived me, in secret she bore me. She set me in a basket of rushes, with bitumen she sealed my lid. She cast me into the river which rose over me. The river bore me up and carried me to Akki, the drawer of water. Akki, the drawer of water, took me as his son and reared me. Akki, the drawer of water, appointed me as his gardener. While I was a gardener, Ishtar granted me her love, and for four and ... years I exercised kingship."

I could keep writing on this topic but the point is that there are similar stories as to the ones found in Abrahamic Relions in various historical cultures around the world. Now, you could look at this two ways. One could be that we find similar stories in historic cultures around the world because God had sent Prophets all over the world who told the same stories or the other way to look at it is that Abrahamic Religions plagiarized from these other historic cultures.

There is a good chance that Noah Flood story, first mention in literature of 'Epic of Gilgamesh' was a work of fiction literature...Those stories are version of the original, and were copied all over the place around the world... How people could have known about them, well people still had some degree of trade(although far less frequent), they would exchange stories. Story telling is one of our oldest pass time, its not hard to imagine people would have shared literature...We have seen that so often in history of literature, like we do today, stories good round in circle, from hollywood to BW and many other places...Most of the Shakespeare play storylines were not his original but he got from other cultures in Europe...Many of the stories in Urdu literature were got from Persian/Hindi/Arabic...

Then there is dramatization of stories, which is again part of literally culture...Story of Liya Majuna is overly dramatized, so was many other romantic stories, same can be said about stories of Prophets and Gods...Why, because literature is not like reporting, its about drama and emotions that sells, not just now but since the very beginning...Supernatural nature of all these stories are just exaggeration like we see in most of the literature even today...I can imagine if we have being living in that world, some of the story lines of Game of Thrones or Lord of the Rings or Popular Super Heroes would be copied down the road and sold as real stories, but most likely we have moved on from selling 'Supernatural As Real' market of literature ;-)

For many who don't know, Quran is written as a poetry book in Arabic. Its not written in commandment or constitutional style but rather poetic style. That's why same topic is discussed all over the place, its also not complied in the order it was received, that makes the matter worse, not to mention language is again poetic, not direct and to the point, everybody can drive whatever they want to drive out of it...There are too many holes to take as serious history book, book of laws or book of Science/Knowledge, it does not provide complete picture of anything in particular...There is a reason Churches, Mosques, Temples are not good at providing Answer to history, Science, literature, Art, Philosophy etc they have no original research or work under their belt...All they have is outdate copies of past literature :facepalm:
 
[MENTION=138980]TalentSpotterPk[/MENTION], I don't think Ram or Krishna were Prophets.

Ram had a ton of noble qualities. He prayed to Shiv Linga. I don't think the Quarinic God would have approved that.
Coming to Krishna, there is no way he would be considered a Prophet according to Quran or Bible or Torah. Krishna prayed to Idols, had countless girl friends without marriage and was a total veggie.

Subcontinent religious figures and noble people are very different to Abrahamic religions Prophets. Krishna/Buddha/Nanak/Mahavira never formed a new religion. Their followers started it after their death.


You have not understood my opinion.

We also had a discussion on this in past.


These are stories on which I do not believe. You have thw right to believe those stories.
 
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