The misnomer that England's batting is significantly weaker than Pakistan's in the upcoming series

[Slog]

Some people are acting as if Pakistan’s batting lineup is vastly superior to England’s. I think they are living in a fools world and are in for a shock.

Pakistan’s batting is definitely more experienced but England’s have much higher ceiling. Even currently they are evenly matched and perhaps Pakistan is slightly more solid but that doesn’t take into account some English batsmen having breakthroughs in this series or the fact that they have one more series of experience now which would have improved their game.

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The names in green are the ones with 10 Test matches or less so their FC record would be a good proxy of their potential. For England; the rookies have very good domestic record so the upside they can offer is much higher than our batsmen who are mostly at their peak or past it. Our rookies (in terms of # of Tests) asides from Abid Ali do not seem to have much higher ceiling than what their Tests stats suggest currently

However; I think what may really push England's overall batting to be better than ours is the strength in depth. Woakes and Bess are more than handy with the bat and are proper all rounders so the batting goes deep

 

[sweep_shot]

I think England's batting is better than Pakistan's batting. They now have a settled opening pair in Sibley and Burns. Both have scored runs against West Indies. They are finally starting to have a settled side in Test format.

 

[Slog]

[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] - thoughts?

 

[Ab Fan]

I agree especially in England conditions, England batting is certainly better.

Burns is a really quality opener and arguably England's best since Cook.

Root would be looking for a big score as well. Pope is the next best young batsmen for England since Root and Buttler has found some form in the final test. He did well vs Pakistan at home last time.

In contrast, I would say Pakistan's batting is reliant heavily on Babar and Azhar and Asad are 35+.

 

[pratiktc]

England have better lineup on paper but it is young and susceptible to collapse.

This series is all about Naseem, Shaheen and Babar going on a tear and trying to nick a test. Rest we should not put any hopes on

 

[Junaids]

[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] - thoughts?

Shan Masood = Burns
Abid Ali = Sibley
Azhar Ali < < Pope.
Babar Azam = Root
Shafiq = Stokes
Rizwan >>>> Buttler (in Tests)
Shadab > Woakes

It really depends upon the openers, I think. And just how bad Azhar Ali is at this stage when he should be 18 months into his retirement.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

It's the quality of the attack that England has to face though. Pakistan have the most accurate bowler, fastest Asian pacer, Tall lefty, wrist spinner . That's a mind-blowimglu good attack .

 

[Slog]

Shan Masood = Burns
Abid Ali = Sibley
Azhar Ali < < Pope.
Babar Azam = Root
Shafiq = Stokes
Rizwan >>>> Buttler (in Tests)
Shadab > Woakes

It really depends upon the openers, I think. And just how bad Azhar Ali is at this stage when he should be 18 months into his retirement.

You really are stretching the truth here

Sibley with a Test average of 42 and a first class average of 42 as well is significantly better than Shan Masood who averages 35 or under in both domestics and internationals. Lets not even talk about his 17 average in Tests in England.

Shafiq is most certainly not equivalent to Stokes right now. Stokes has played several match changing innings of the type which Shafiq has never played in a 10 year career.

Buttler isnt in the greatest form and I would give the edge to Rizwan here but it is marginal at best. Certainly not a big gulf as you are trying to potray

Nothing to suggest that Shadab will be a better batsman than Woakes or Bess.

 

[Slog]

It's the quality of the attack that England has to face though. Pakistan have the most accurate bowler, fastest Asian pacer, Tall lefty, wrist spinner . That's a mind-blowimglu good attack .

lol are u being sarcastic

England have 2 pacers with 500+ Test wickets. Dont think that has ever happened before. And Woakes is a very good bowler with. His type of bowling is what is nightmarish for our batsmen and I wont be surprised if he makes our batsmen look like mug. He averages 22 with the ball in England btw

 

[Nikhil_cric]

lol are u being sarcastic

England have 2 pacers with 500+ Test wickets. Dont think that has ever happened before. And Woakes is a very good bowler with. His type of bowling is what is nightmarish for our batsmen and I wont be surprised if he makes our batsmen look like mug. He averages 22 with the ball in England btw

Not at all. You guys usually have the attack to do extremely well in English conditions and generally bowl the right length and right pace for these conditions. I expect no less from the current attack.

 

[Robert]

Some people are acting as if Pakistan’s batting lineup is vastly superior to England’s. I think they are living in a fools world and are in for a shock.

Pakistan’s batting is definitely more experienced but England’s have much higher ceiling. Even currently they are evenly matched and perhaps Pakistan is slightly more solid but that doesn’t take into account some English batsmen having breakthroughs in this series or the fact that they have one more series of experience now which would have improved their game.


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The names in green are the ones with 10 Test matches or less so their FC record would be a good proxy of their potential. For England; the rookies have very good domestic record so the upside they can offer is much higher than our batsmen who are mostly at their peak or past it. Our rookies (in terms of # of Tests) asides from Abid Ali do not seem to have much higher ceiling than what their Tests stats suggest currently

However; I think what may really push England's overall batting to be better than ours is the strength in depth. Woakes and Bess are more than handy with the bat and are proper all rounders so the batting goes deep

Bess might be considered an all-rounder if he could bowl....

I want to see how Sibley does against Yasir with all that jumping about in he crease that he does.

 

[ammar_merry]

Looking forward to shan 2 vs anderson.His record is 15/6 vs him.

 

[viveks]

In english conditions, England are comfortably better. They also have a far stronger tail, Broad was batting at 11 in the last match

 

[Mamoon]

What else do you expect from Pakistani fans? We are easily the most deluded fans in the world.

We consistently find ourselves in the lower half of the rankings and then we act as if we have world beating players at our disposal.

Babar is the only batsman and Yasir is the only bowler who would get into the England team.

England will have to play exceptionally poor cricket to not win the series with the ease.

 

[sindhiboy]

Shan Masood = Burns
Abid Ali = Sibley
Azhar Ali < < Pope.
Babar Azam = Root
Shafiq = Stokes
Rizwan >>>> Buttler (in Tests)
Shadab > Woakes

It really depends upon the openers, I think. And just how bad Azhar Ali is at this stage when he should be 18 months into his retirement.

You are aware that stokes is ranked in the top 5 of test batsmen?

 

[the Great Khan]

englands batting is better than ours because of root and stokes. They give the rest reaasurance and solidity. We dont have that from our seniors. Even babar is vulnerable early on and to the moving ball. Masood is someone i just dont rate our top order at all.

 

[Mesozoic]

Shan Masood = Burns
Abid Ali = Sibley
Azhar Ali < < Pope.
Babar Azam = Root
Shafiq = Stokes
Rizwan >>>> Buttler (in Tests)
Shadab > Woakes

It really depends upon the openers, I think. And just how bad Azhar Ali is at this stage when he should be 18 months into his retirement.

)

 

[shamaan]

englands batting is better than ours because of root and stokes. They give the rest reaasurance and solidity. We dont have that from our seniors. Even babar is vulnerable early on and to the moving ball. Masood is someone i just dont rate our top order at all.

Stil the same ?

 

[Kroll]

No way Shafiq = Stokes. Shafiq's a mental midget and long time passenger while Stokes is a match winner.

 

[Slog]

Stil the same ?

lol Shan edged behind multiple times. Had quite a few lucky runs

Admire his grit but he def isn’t some quality opener

 

[Rana]

TBH

I was not expecting Babar to bat this well, this freely and at this pace against a bowling attack of Anderson, Broad, Archer and Woakes.

Babar currently is one heck of a player!

 

[shamaan]

lol Shan edged behind multiple times. Had quite a few lucky runs

Admire his grit but he def isn’t some quality opener

You make your own luck.thats what hes about grit and determination he doesnt have the shot range hes limited he knows his game

 

[Titan24]

Shan Masood = Burns
Abid Ali = Sibley
Azhar Ali < < Pope.
Babar Azam = Root
Shafiq = Stokes
Rizwan >>>> Buttler (in Tests)
Shadab > Woakes

It really depends upon the openers, I think. And just how bad Azhar Ali is at this stage when he should be 18 months into his retirement.

I agree with the rest but, I dont think Shafiq is equal to Stokes. Yes there averages are similar as of now (Stokes average is in upward trajectory) but Stokes generally delivers under pressure and creates an impact on his day unlike Shafiq especially in the overseas conditions.

 

[Suleiman]

Biggest concern is Azhar Ali. Captain only because Misbah is like his dad, has done nothing with the bat in tests for a while now.

Am proud of the fight Shan has shown today- you done good kid (46 runs are 46 runs).

But basically formula is Babar + another batsman to fire for hundreds since we are short on batsmen. I pray Shadab has become a more consistent batsman.

 

[Suleiman]

Shafiq = Stokes ) ) )

Junaids is an ATG non-Pakistani Pakistani fan.

 

[Titan24]

)

Woakes has an average of 26 with 1 100 and 4 50s in 35 tests in comparison Shadab's 3 50s in 5 tests at an average of 34. Buttler averages 31 with the bat in tests with 1 100 in close to 50 tests, anybody can see Rizwan has a higher ceiling in the format. Forget Rizwan even Sarfaraz who averages 36 (Much higher than Buttler) had a purple patch at home which was better than Buttler's entire test career.

I dont agree with Shafiq and Stokes comparison but rest of the two comparisons can easily be contested on any merit, statistic or fact.

 

[Slog]

Woakes has an average of 26 with 1 100 and 4 50s in 35 tests in comparison Shadab's 3 50s in 5 tests at an average of 34. Buttler averages 31 with the bat in tests with 1 100 in close to 50 tests, anybody can see Rizwan has a higher ceiling in the format. Forget Rizwan even Sarfaraz who averages 36 (Much higher than Buttler) had a purple patch at home which was better than Buttler's entire test career.

I dont agree with Shafiq and Stokes comparison but rest of the two comparisons can easily be contested on any merit, statistic or fact.

Your whole argument for Rizwan is based on his potential while Buttler has actual performances right now..

You cannot declare "Rizwan>Buttler" on potential. There is an equal chance he won't be as good considering our history. Also the poster [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] doesn't just declare Rizwan better but he says he is significantly better the the point where they are not even in the same league as ">>>>" shows. That does deserve a ")"

Same with Shadab. His FC average of 26 is a better indicator at this moment than his short Test career. 5 Tests is not a big enough sample esp when your highest score came against Ireland. He has only 1 hundred at FC level and mid 20s average in domestics too.

Besides if you want to compare based on 'ceiling' then England as an overall batting unit wins this hands down because their younger player's FC records are much better as the OP table shows

 

[Abdullah719]

Your whole argument for Rizwan is based on his potential while Buttler has actual performances right now..

He averages 31 with the bat after 44 Tests and has one hundred. That’s not really an enviable record. Sure he’s played some useful knocks but even Sarfaraz has far better performances, and it’s generally accepted that Rizwan is a better batsman than Sarfaraz. There’s a huge disparity in their FC records as well.

 

[Titan24]

Your whole argument for Rizwan is based on his potential while Buttler has actual performances right now..

You cannot declare "Rizwan>Buttler" on potential. There is an equal chance he won't be as good considering our history. Also the poster [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] doesn't just declare Rizwan better but he says he is significantly better the the point where they are not even in the same league as ">>>>" shows. That does deserve a ")"

Same with Shadab. His FC average of 26 is a better indicator at this moment than his short Test career. 5 Tests is not a big enough sample esp when your highest score came against Ireland. He has only 1 hundred at FC level and mid 20s average in domestics too.

Besides if you want to compare based on 'ceiling' then England as an overall batting unit wins this hands down because their younger player's FC records are much better as the OP table shows

If you want to bring in FC stats why not bring them in for Rizwan as well?

Rizwan averages 43 in FC cricket with 10 100s in 86 matches in comparison to Buttler who averages mere 32 with the bat and 6 100s in 109 FC matches.

If you want to talk about test matches sample size then Sarfaraz who is a back up keeper for Pak swipes the floor with Buttler with a test average of 36 and 3 100s and 18 50s in 49 matches vs Buttler's average of 31 with 1 100 and 16 50s in 44 matches. Believe it or not Srafaraz even has a better SR in comparison to Buttler of 70 vs 57 and not to forget its important when you bat at no 7 with tail more often than not.

Coming to Shadab, why are you only talking about him and not about Woakes to whom he is being compared? If Shadab has 3 50s in 5 tests, isnt it obvious if he plays 35 tests he will have more than 4 50s of Woakes and probably a 100 somewhere? 35 matches is a big sample size and Woakes has just 4 50s and 1 100 at an avg of 26. Not sure how he can be said better to Shadab.

None of Buttler or Woakes have done anything in their 44 matches and 35 matches as batsmen to be called better any random wicket keeper batsmen and a no 7. If playing more matches ensures superiority than we are talking about a different topic.

 

[Titan24]

You cannot declare "Rizwan>Buttler" on potential. There is an equal chance he won't be as good considering our history. Also the poster [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] doesn't just declare Rizwan better but he says he is significantly better the the point where they are not even in the same league as ">>>>" shows. That does deserve a ")"

I definitely dont believe Rizwan is significantly better than Buttler as of now because, I agree that sample size is really small. However at the same time he looks to be a much better test prospect than Buttler to me. Ofcourse we have seen big turnarounds in careers but, at the moment Buttler is just an average keeper batsman.

 

[hitthestump]

England's tail will help add important runs. By themselves they're handy enough and pretty capable of hanging around with a superior batting partner. The combined runs could be equivalent to having an extra batsman.

Pakistan's will struggle to do the same with their tail. It gets incredibly weak after Rizwan at 6.

 

[the Great Khan]

Stil the same ?

i think in their own conditions they are better than us. Shaan has surprised and impressed me.

 

[Abdullah719]

Both teams’ openers are inexperienced. Pakistan’s have clinched round 1.

 

[Slog]

Both teams’ openers are inexperienced. Pakistan’s have clinched round 1.

Pope and Root are arguably their best so need to get 5-6 down before we say this for certain

Even we had 3 batsmen score runs

 

[Abdullah719]

Pope and Root are arguably their best so need to get 5-6 down before we say this for certain

Even we had 3 batsmen score runs

I meant that the openers won vs the England openers. I don’t think there’s any doubt that Stokes and Root are far better than Azhar, Asad, etc.

 

[aloo paratha]

If you want to bring in FC stats why not bring them in for Rizwan as well?

Rizwan averages 43 in FC cricket with 10 100s in 86 matches in comparison to Buttler who averages mere 32 with the bat and 6 100s in 109 FC matches.

If you want to talk about test matches sample size then Sarfaraz who is a back up keeper for Pak swipes the floor with Buttler with a test average of 36 and 3 100s and 18 50s in 49 matches vs Buttler's average of 31 with 1 100 and 16 50s in 44 matches. Believe it or not Srafaraz even has a better SR in comparison to Buttler of 70 vs 57 and not to forget its important when you bat at no 7 with tail more often than not.

Coming to Shadab, why are you only talking about him and not about Woakes to whom he is being compared? If Shadab has 3 50s in 5 tests, isnt it obvious if he plays 35 tests he will have more than 4 50s of Woakes and probably a 100 somewhere? 35 matches is a big sample size and Woakes has just 4 50s and 1 100 at an avg of 26. Not sure how he can be said better to Shadab.

None of Buttler or Woakes have done anything in their 44 matches and 35 matches as batsmen to be called better any random wicket keeper batsmen and a no 7. If playing more matches ensures superiority than we are talking about a different topic.

spot on. Classic deception through commentators hyping players up. English cricketers are overrated.

 

[shamaan]

i think in their own conditions they are better than us. Shaan has surprised and impressed me.

Even ali survived more balls then both openers

 

[MMHS]

Shan Masood = Burns
Abid Ali = Sibley
Azhar Ali < < Pope.
Babar Azam = Root
Shafiq = Stokes
Rizwan >>>> Buttler (in Tests)
Shadab > Woakes

It really depends upon the openers, I think. And just how bad Azhar Ali is at this stage when he should be 18 months into his retirement.

Had to bump this one - really?

 

[JaDed]

Even if Butler was below Rizwan before this match how is Shafiq equivalent to Stokes???

 

[Slog]

Don’t like how right I’ve been proven but I had consistently talked about how England’s batting ceiling was MUCH higher and how they batted so DEEP with Woakes and Bess also legit contributors

 

[Ab Fan]

Next test, England lineup will be:-

Burns
Sibley
Crawley
Root
Stokes
Pope
Buttler(wkt)
Woakes
Bess
Wood
Broad

Everyone can bat.

 

[Slog]

Shan Masood = Burns
Abid Ali = Sibley
Azhar Ali < < Pope.
Babar Azam = Root
Shafiq = Stokes
Rizwan >>>> Buttler (in Tests)
Shadab > Woakes

It really depends upon the openers, I think. And just how bad Azhar Ali is at this stage when he should be 18 months into his retirement.

You really are stretching the truth here

Sibley with a Test average of 42 and a first class average of 42 as well is significantly better than Shan Masood who averages 35 or under in both domestics and internationals. Lets not even talk about his 17 average in Tests in England.

Shafiq is most certainly not equivalent to Stokes right now. Stokes has played several match changing innings of the type which Shafiq has never played in a 10 year career.

Buttler isnt in the greatest form and I would give the edge to Rizwan here but it is marginal at best. Certainly not a big gulf as you are trying to potray

Nothing to suggest that Shadab will be a better batsman than Woakes or Bess.

Time to say I was pretty right?

Sibley played a good role and I will maintain he has a higher ceiling and the tools to be a good opener.

Buttler’s ceiling is always going to be higher than most Pakistani batsmen let alone Rizwan. And he proved it today.

I’d talked about England’s batting depth with Woakes and Bess. And that’s why they won.

It was ludicrous to suggest Rizwan is significantly better than Buttler and tbh even claim he is better at all when Rizwan really hasn’t proved much. Same with Shadab being better batsman than Woakes. I think even you knew that it was a joke to suggest that the mentally weak Shafiq is better batsman than Stokes.

 

[shamaan]

Don’t like how right I’ve been proven but I had consistently talked about how England’s batting ceiling was MUCH higher and how they batted so DEEP with Woakes and Bess also legit contributors

That's the difference the tail for england is alot better than Pakistan's hands down

 

[Slog]

That's the difference the tail for england is alot better than Pakistan's hands down

We have three No. 11s in Abbas, Shaheen and Naseem

 

[Mamoon]

Calling Rizwan a better batsman than Buttler has to be the most ludicrous statement I have heard here in a long time.

You can compare their overall utilities because Rizwan is a much better keeper, but there is nothing similar about their batting capabilities.

 

[sweep_shot]

Shan Masood = Burns
Abid Ali = Sibley
Azhar Ali < < Pope.
Babar Azam = Root
Shafiq = Stokes
Rizwan >>>> Buttler (in Tests)
Shadab > Woakes

It really depends upon the openers, I think. And just how bad Azhar Ali is at this stage when he should be 18 months into his retirement.

I disagree with Shafiq = Stokes.

I think Stokes is better.

 

[Hasan123]

England batting is better now and their potential is much higher. Imagine when Sibley and Pope are in their peaks!

 

[shamaan]

England batting is better now and their potential is much higher. Imagine when Sibley and Pope are in their peaks!

They have a very good lower order with woakes bess and even broad seems abit better. Thier top order is okay pope is class thou

 

[ravisurya]

Shan Masood = Burns
Abid Ali = Sibley
Azhar Ali < < Pope.
Babar Azam = Root
Shafiq = Stokes
Rizwan >>>> Buttler (in Tests)
Shadab > Woakes

It really depends upon the openers, I think. And just how bad Azhar Ali is at this stage when he should be 18 months into his retirement.

Does this still stand?

 

[shamaan]

Does this still stand?

Shan is stil better than burns
Sibley=abid
Azhar pope par
Babar=root
Stokes=shafiq
Rizwan=buttler in tests including keeping

 

[Slog]

Pakistan’s three number 11s and england’s deep batting lineup coming on show in this test

 

[Firebat]

Shan is stil better than burns
Sibley=abid
Azhar pope par
Babar=root
Stokes=shafiq
Rizwan=buttler in tests including keeping

Stokes = Shafiq??? In what world )

 

[Kroll]

Stokes = Shafiq??? In what world )

Must be cricket captain on playstation. )