Justcrazy
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Cholas Mauryas were clans, and at that time wars were the only way to expand their kingdoms , there were no International borders like today.
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Contact the PP Team
The murderous regime of Mughals for Sikhs and Hindus : A History of Bloodshed and Resistance
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Cholas Mauryas were clans, and at that time wars were the only way to expand their kingdoms , there were no International borders like today.
Justcrazy
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Violence without reason is wrong , but do you think in all circumstances and time non violence can be used ? To run a society you need violence to an extent.
Jesus did not use violence as he did not have the means or it was not right time.
Jesus somewhere says in the Bible that those who do not accept me as their king , bring them to come and kill them . ( if you want a reference I will search and let you know ).
Justcrazy
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I do not have any knowledge of what you are talking about , but killing was not done by only Mughals , there were other dynasty kings who also killed . What can be done about that now? Shall we remove all those dynasties from history ?
Hitman
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Read this this below. And before you try to paint everything as Hindutva propaganda, the entire thing is documented in Akbar's own biography called Akbarnama, written under his orders by his own courtyard Abul Fazl.
Siege of Chittorgarh (1567–1568) - Wikipedia
Justcrazy
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Read this this below. And before you try to paint everything as Hindutva propaganda, the entire thing is documented in Akbar's own biography called Akbarnama, written under his orders by his own courtyard Abul Fazl.
Siege of Chittorgarh (1567–1568) - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
I will read that , but the point does not contradict what I wrote.
The point is that Mughal rulers were worldly kings , who acted like kings of those times. Religion was not important for them , neither there actions were from Islam.
If for the reasons they are made some kind of demons , then we have to look at other kings with the same glasses. Is BJP ready to do that. If they do then they are honest , if they do not , then that means that their issue is deep down hatred for Muslims , a feeling of inferiority.
The Mughals or even the British ruled over India for a big period of time , its fact , you cannot just erase that from History . People have to accept the facts and move on in life. A Government job is to administer the country and look at current issues , rather than dig up past and spend time on irrelevant issues. If for example I am claiming Aurangzeb was a great person , how does that affect India growth at this present day ? This is an academic discussion that should be done by historians , not by politicians.
Aang_The_last_airbender
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Mughal rulers like others were a product of their time. The major controversy around their legacy centres around Aurangzeb alone who went overboard killing and murdering in the name of religion beyond what was the norm. Aurangzeb is the reason, Khalsa emerged. Guru Gobind Singh ji had to take the martial route to protect innocent Hindus and Sikh followers.
The buildings will fall away, rules and laws forgotten in history books, the greatest legacy instrument of Mughals that is eternal is the emergence of Sikhism against all the terror. 13th April 1699. It was Guru Gobind Singh ji, who helped install Bahadur Shah on the throne after death of Aurangzeb. But Bahadur Shah reneged on his promises and infact assassinated Guru Gobind Singh ji.
Northern India had been under Muslim rule for 400 years before Babar came to India. But we just get focused on Mughals because of Aurangzeb's case, he was actually a truly pious Islamic Ruler, no glamourous or luxuries but his ardent deployment of his religious belief led to the emergence of an entire New Religious force to counter it Nowhere in history do you have such a case. That's evidence enough for anyone with little bit honesty in their soul, but people always have the right to shut their eyes and brains to facts.
Empires, buildings and palaces have always been built on military conquests, terror, violence and slave labor. Anyone telling you otherwise is just smoking Longbottom leaf too much.
The buildings will fall away, rules and laws forgotten in history books, the greatest legacy instrument of Mughals that is eternal is the emergence of Sikhism against all the terror. 13th April 1699. It was Guru Gobind Singh ji, who helped install Bahadur Shah on the throne after death of Aurangzeb. But Bahadur Shah reneged on his promises and infact assassinated Guru Gobind Singh ji.
Northern India had been under Muslim rule for 400 years before Babar came to India. But we just get focused on Mughals because of Aurangzeb's case, he was actually a truly pious Islamic Ruler, no glamourous or luxuries but his ardent deployment of his religious belief led to the emergence of an entire New Religious force to counter it Nowhere in history do you have such a case. That's evidence enough for anyone with little bit honesty in their soul, but people always have the right to shut their eyes and brains to facts.
Empires, buildings and palaces have always been built on military conquests, terror, violence and slave labor. Anyone telling you otherwise is just smoking Longbottom leaf too much.
JaDed
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I’m not a proponent of non-violence but i can take spiritual or religious knowledge/guidance from people that aren’t violent.
That’s why I said there are probably only 4-5 figures in the world whose religious founder is non-violent and three are of them from South Asia.
Aang_The_last_airbender
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I would feel safer under a guy who never waged wars, because I know history is always written by the victorious. Wars are always won by the
good side 
big_gamer007
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Why do posters here play deflection tactics?
It’s simple, most rulers of past committed atrocities, massacres and genocides including Hindu rulers.
This thread and conversation was specifically about Mughals, now you bring in Hindu rulers just to divulge from the topic?
How difficult can it be to say in this thread Mughals were genocidal maniacs and should be condemned.
Simple ain’t it?
We must not remove them from history but we should not be glorifying them at present. When we see threads like Mughal appreciation thread very well knowing how barbaric they were and what they have done is the issue. As I said, in reality Mughals were Al Qaeda and ISIS in modern world terminology and would have been a banned terrorist outfit. No one should glorify Sultanates and Mughals, it is akin to glorify terrorists or what Israel is doing.
Hitman
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The creators and contributors in 'Mughal Appreciation Threads' are the same ones who cry crocodile tears for Palestine today. If hypocrisy had a face. And they cry why the rest of the world doesn't take them seriously.
Romali_rotti
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If Mughals wanted to, they could've ended Hinduism and Sikhism in subcontinent completely. But, that was not the objective I guess.
Mughals were not cruel like Spanish Empire or other empires. They were benevolent in nature.
Did they make mistakes along the way? It was possible some mistakes were made. But, overall, it was a benevolent empire that enriched subcontinent and gave the place a robust identity.
Post #4 highlights their various contributions in subcontinent.
No sweep_shot bro, one thing about Hindus, some may give in to conversion and pledge their loyalties to the God from Arabia due to the hardships they faced from the mughals, like your ancestors but majority rejects it.
British was also a small force and they couldn't convert India to a christian following.
It is what it is bro, Santanis cannot be conquered and converted like what Islam has done in other countries , example is bharat
..
Romali_rotti
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Yes those same Arab Palestinians that would look down on the converts from sub continent as lower class beings than them
Vikram1989
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Fun factYes those same Arab Palestinians that would look down on the converts from sub continent as lower class beings than them
Nawab of Hyderabad ridiculed tipu and his son for asking an alliance with his daughter. Nawab being a turkish descendant thought tipu family are local converts and not of his class.later tipu son got hold of nawab minister and paraded him nude in his prison.
Tipu’s grandfather was a local convert in the Punjab area. They migrated south to seek fortune as a soldier in the south in the Mysore Hindu Wadayars kingdom. Tipu’s dad Hyderabad Ali usurped the Mysore kingdom from Wadayars as there was no apparent heir to the throne. Declared himself new king and put down all the revolts in the royalty ruthlessly.
Hyderabad sultanate rulers were Turkic. They will never consider Tipu and Hyderabad Ali as their equals. My man Tipu was a dark skinned local. Poor guy. Not pretty enough for Persian and Turk Hyderabadi Sultans.
Vikram1989
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Perfect.Hyder ali was portrayed as ancient royal descendant from persia/Turk but one look at tipu will tell tale.
Attachments
Tipu Sultan even wrote to Ottoman Sultan at that time to recognize him and his kingdom and sought legitimacy. A stamp of approval from Ottoman Sultan would elevate his status among the Deccan Sultanate and the Nizam of Hyderabad. Too bad for Tipu, he never got the recognition from Ottomans and never got the support from Nizams or the Deccan sultanate against British. In fact Nizams sided with British to put down Tipu and his Mysore kingdom.
You lost half your santani areas, Indonesia, malaysia, Afghanistan, pakistan, bangladesh all conquered by Islam.No sweep_shot bro, one thing about Hindus, some may give in to conversion and pledge their loyalties to the God from Arabia due to the hardships they faced from the mughals, like your ancestors but majority rejects it.
British was also a small force and they couldn't convert India to a christian following.
It is what it is bro, Santanis cannot be conquered and converted like what Islam has done in other countries , example is bharat
He never claimed Turkic or persian lineage, He claimed arab lineage.
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What did Tipu Sultan look like?
It doesn't matter about complexion but it was in the interest of the British to mock him and to make him shorter, fatter, smaller and darker (typical racist caricature of a Hindustani) but the eye witness accounts clearly state that he wasn't.
Tipu as about five feet eight inches tall. ‘He had a short neck, square shoulders, and was rather corpulent: his limbs were small, particularly his feet and hands; he had large full eyes, small arched eyebrows, and an aquiline nose; his complexion was fair, and the general expression of his countenance, not void of dignity'.
The "non-British" eye witness Accounts from his young age to his life state that he was very active, studios and practiced his arts diligently so there is no way he was "rather corpulent" as the British claim with that amount of physical activity, he was extremely well versed in wrestling & sword fighting and sometimes participating with multiple opponents. I have read eye witness Accounts of his sword and wrestling duels and practices and noway he was fat!
But he even the racist British didn't go as far to call him "dark skinned", not that it mattered what complexion of skin he was but he wasn't dark skinned.
Like every desi people. The holier the better. Subjects will treat him with awe and respect. After all, if one claims to be the descendant of prophet, it gives brownie points.
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Tipu Sultan: Authentic History;
The foreword on this book by Maulana Abul-Hasan Ali Nadwi who is considered the best and most authentic historian of last century
Family & Lineage (Page 88 onwards):
Let me summarize but others can read all the pages, the family, marriages, lineage are all included.
This family was of Arab origin and lineage and arrived in Hindustan in the 16th century. Their journey initiated in Makkah (which they left in search of good economic prospects) then went to Baghdad, Iran, Afghanistan and finally to Punjab where they stayed for years.
The disagreement between Historians that they were of "Arab origin" or "Punjab origin" is due to their long stay in Punjab before moving inwards. During their stay in Punjab this family because they had come from Afghanistan were colloquially known as "Afghans" and thats why some historians have called them Afghans but their origin is Arab. The evidence of this family being Arab is that one of the ancestors of Tipu is Hasan Ibn Yahya (died 1469) who was appointed as Shareef of Makkah by the Ottomans and it was his son (Ahmed) who married the daughter of King of Yemen proving their lineage and social status.
Cut the BS and if you are going to say something historic present some facts and evidence. As I said, doesn't matter if he was dark skinned or Indian or Turk or Afghan but he was none of those.
The book which I quote tells you all their marriages and lineage from 1469 on-wards, present your evidence instead of your rant, ignorance and BS
The foreword on this book by Maulana Abul-Hasan Ali Nadwi who is considered the best and most authentic historian of last century
Family & Lineage (Page 88 onwards):
Let me summarize but others can read all the pages, the family, marriages, lineage are all included.
This family was of Arab origin and lineage and arrived in Hindustan in the 16th century. Their journey initiated in Makkah (which they left in search of good economic prospects) then went to Baghdad, Iran, Afghanistan and finally to Punjab where they stayed for years.
The disagreement between Historians that they were of "Arab origin" or "Punjab origin" is due to their long stay in Punjab before moving inwards. During their stay in Punjab this family because they had come from Afghanistan were colloquially known as "Afghans" and thats why some historians have called them Afghans but their origin is Arab. The evidence of this family being Arab is that one of the ancestors of Tipu is Hasan Ibn Yahya (died 1469) who was appointed as Shareef of Makkah by the Ottomans and it was his son (Ahmed) who married the daughter of King of Yemen proving their lineage and social status.
Cut the BS and if you are going to say something historic present some facts and evidence. As I said, doesn't matter if he was dark skinned or Indian or Turk or Afghan but he was none of those.
The book which I quote tells you all their marriages and lineage from 1469 on-wards, present your evidence instead of your rant, ignorance and BS
Tipu Sultan was a desi man. The first desi Muslim sultan to ever rule any part of Indian subcontinent. The rest are all Turkic or Persian+Turkic mix.
Leftist historians tried to big him up as he is an Indian. But a closer look at the deeds of Tipu showed he is no better than Mughals.
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Every Muslim guy in the subcontinent has a chart to show how they are related to Prophet. Cool story bro.
Tipu was a Punjabi or at least from that area. Mughals and Turks would have never accepted him.
Sure. We have evidence of what Tipu did to people of Mangalore. He massacred Hindus and Catholics of Karnataka mercilessly. Such a classy dude.
History should be taught as it is. They don’t sugar coat how untouchability badly impacted Dalits of India. We were taught at schools about Brahminical hegemony among caste Hindus.
But when it comes to Mughals, Turkic invaders and the likes of Tipu, it’s all rosy and everyone was doing Bollywood dance in unison.
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Whatever you say Sir, Phull Sapport Sir
Tipu Sultan Arab Lineage (Makkah to Hindustan)
- Tipu sultan son of
- Haider Ali, son of
- Fateh Muhammad, son of
- Muhammad Ali, son of
- Wali Muhammad, son of
- Muhammad Bahlul, son of
- Hasan, son of
- Ibraheem, son of
- Abdul-Ghani, son of
- Ahmed, son of
- Muhammad, son of
- Hasan Ibn Yahya (died 1469) who was appointed as Shareef of Makkah by the Ottomans
Phull Sapport Sir
Hahahahah.
So many desis claiming prophet lineage. Tipu is one among the millions. Anyone can claim and put a chart. Fake Syeds. There are more Arabs in India than entire Arabia combined.
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Why the name Tipu Sultan?
Because the first pregnancy of Haider Ali's wife was painful and almost resulted in miscarriage so husband and wife went to the Dargah of Sultan Mastan Tipu of Arcot to ease the worries of the second pregnancy and after his birth he was given the same name so Sultan was part of his name long before he became the actual 'Sultan"...
I said Arab and not lineage of Prophet
But Phull Sapport Sir
Because the first pregnancy of Haider Ali's wife was painful and almost resulted in miscarriage so husband and wife went to the Dargah of Sultan Mastan Tipu of Arcot to ease the worries of the second pregnancy and after his birth he was given the same name so Sultan was part of his name long before he became the actual 'Sultan"...
Hahahahah.
So many desis claiming prophet lineage. Tipu is one among the millions. Anyone can claim and put a chart. Fake Syeds. There are more Arabs in India than entire Arabia combined.
I said Arab and not lineage of Prophet
But Phull Sapport Sir
He is as Arab as millions of Syeds roaming in India. I am sure Arabs will hug him and call him a habibi.
Justcrazy
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Any one has two sides to that, you cannot simply say Mughal made no contribution at all. On the other side no one can claim that whatever they did was absolutely right.
Now , if you are using the word terrorist, do you realize that Bhagat Singh and other freedom fighters were branded as terrorist by the Government that time? If You ask me I would say no they were not.
LTTE is a terror organization, according a lot of posters here or articles written about them or new channels of India at that time, but what about the Tamiians at that time ?
Israel is breaking UN treaties, it is something which is well defined.
During that time , there were no such treaties, not only Mughals there were other kings as well who attacked India . This was done by kingdoms at that time. Even the Indian kings attacked each other and killed people. If we start branding them terrorists , who will be left ?
As I said in my post, if Aurangzeb was such an important person , then one should have fought him when he was alive and killed him, you cannot kill a dead person, can you ? There are far more important things which are the responsibility of an elected Government.
Romali_rotti
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Santani's kept control of the most important and the largest chunk and kept the Arabian God away from taking all out control. If you look at history wherever Islam went, Saudi, Iraq, Iran, Egypt it is fully Islamasised but not the same for Bharat....
Romali_rotti
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Doesn't surprise me, the folks from the Arab, Turkish backgrounds etc look down on the dark skinned converts....
Justcrazy
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Which Treaties did Mughals break with India like Israel has done with the UN ? You are comparing two different eras , International boundaries and treaties were not in place , you can question morality here , not legality.
Vikram1989
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My bad .its anything but not local convert for royal qualification I mean.
Greenstorm
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Nice try but you are the one deflecting. First look at your comment that I quoted. I replied to your silly assertion that Muslims cannot sympathize with Palestinians without first condemning what Mughals did 300 years ago !
You conveniently ignored the question that I asked in response so here it is again. Should Indians first condemn every atrocity committed by Hindus centuries ago before crying about plight of minorities in Pakistan ?
Justcrazy
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I would feel safer under a guy who never waged wars, because I know history is always written by the victorious. Wars are always won by the
Look here you are making ambiguous statement , unless you mention which people you are talking about , no one can respond to that.
For example US has waged several wars , there are many Sanatanis using Dunki route to try and live in that country. I am sure they find themselves safe there.
same can be said about Britain as well.
Justcrazy
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who are you talking about ?
Greenstorm
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'Rest of the world' phrase is used a lot by Indians generally to convey that few powerful white men agree with them.
You are depicting binary thinking. One can appreciate positive contributions of Mughals and Maratha while at the same time condemning their wrongdoings. Similarly, one can sympathize with plight of Palestinians while admiring positive contribution of Israelis specially in arts, science and technology.
JaDed
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Any religious figure excluding Guru Nanak Mahavir Jain Buddha and Jesus Christ.
Spain, Greece, balkans lots of examples, nothing special about India.
That's normal human phenomenon found world over, Upper caste hindus look down on lower caste, Jatts look down on bhaiyas, Iranians mock khaleeji arabs for being darker then them, Northern Chinese mock southern Chinese for being more yellow.
Romali_rotti
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You claimed Islam fully islamizied wherever it went I just told you it not true.Islam is not the controlling religion in Spain, Greece etc though
Romali_rotti
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Ok
.. Islam never really had a foothold in Greece but they did in Spain at one time before it fell.
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I don't understand Indian infatuated with "fair skin" and the WhatsApp university graduates don't know that Syrians, Palestinians and Lebanese are Arabs but many times fairer then Turks and Afghans
Algerians are Afrians but many times lighter skinned (although with curly hair usually).
When the Tatar and Mongols invaded, millions of Arabs migrated to India not Hindu converts but Arabs, also many Arab traders settled in India.
Similarly, millions of Turks/Afghan Muslims settled in India, again not Hindu converts.
And there is nothing wrong with a Hindu convert (or a convert from any other race or religion) but fact remains that millions remain in subcontinent who are Arab or Turk or Afghan descendents and not indigenous converts and also millions whose ancestors converted from Hindusim.
The ancestors of Maulana Abdul Kalam Azad were "not Hindu converts" but Arabs while the ancestors of Maulana Ubaydullah Sindhi and Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto were both Hindu converts
The ancestors of Shah Waliullah were Arabs who had emigrated from Afghanistan and so on and so forth
Algerians are Afrians but many times lighter skinned (although with curly hair usually).
When the Tatar and Mongols invaded, millions of Arabs migrated to India not Hindu converts but Arabs, also many Arab traders settled in India.
Similarly, millions of Turks/Afghan Muslims settled in India, again not Hindu converts.
And there is nothing wrong with a Hindu convert (or a convert from any other race or religion) but fact remains that millions remain in subcontinent who are Arab or Turk or Afghan descendents and not indigenous converts and also millions whose ancestors converted from Hindusim.
The ancestors of Maulana Abdul Kalam Azad were "not Hindu converts" but Arabs while the ancestors of Maulana Ubaydullah Sindhi and Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto were both Hindu converts
The ancestors of Shah Waliullah were Arabs who had emigrated from Afghanistan and so on and so forth
Vikram1989
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I am not interested in what'sapp university bro.Fun fact brought to you by WhatsApp university
Phull Sapport Sir
Source is "Historical sketches of the south of India, in an attempt to trace the history of Mysoor;
from the origin of the Hindoo government of that state, to the extinction of the Mohammedan dynasty in 1799 "
By Lieut. Colonel Mark Wilks.
Phull Sapport Sir to ur ignorance. I agree ignorance is a bliss but not in serious discussions.
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Also whenever someone decides not to marry someone in the mind of Hindutva (WhatsApp university) it's always down to skin color, race or lineage.
In Islam, marriage is about finding compatibility. Sometimes people are compatible within their race or ethnicity and sometimes they are not.
My wife is not my race or ethnicity and doesn't and cannot speak my language with my mother and family, cannot eat my food but we are happily married because of Islam and nobody has an issue. Other girls in my family are married to guys who are not their race or ethnicity and cannot speak their language and don't eat their food but been married 20+ years with kids married or about to be married.
My parents are not the same and were married 60-70 years ago.
My uncle married in 1930s to someone with entirely different Race and ethnicity
Its pretty common among Muslims to be married across cultures, race, lineage and ethnicity for centuries and not because Muslims live in the west
And it ain't about fair skins either, plenty of very fair skinned Brothers and Sisters I personally know are married to extremely dark skinned partners and vice versa, they all have Islam and that's why they married.
There is no commonality between me and my wife in terms of race, ethnicity, language, culture except Islam
In Islam, marriage is about finding compatibility. Sometimes people are compatible within their race or ethnicity and sometimes they are not.
My wife is not my race or ethnicity and doesn't and cannot speak my language with my mother and family, cannot eat my food but we are happily married because of Islam and nobody has an issue. Other girls in my family are married to guys who are not their race or ethnicity and cannot speak their language and don't eat their food but been married 20+ years with kids married or about to be married.
My parents are not the same and were married 60-70 years ago.
My uncle married in 1930s to someone with entirely different Race and ethnicity
Its pretty common among Muslims to be married across cultures, race, lineage and ethnicity for centuries and not because Muslims live in the west
And it ain't about fair skins either, plenty of very fair skinned Brothers and Sisters I personally know are married to extremely dark skinned partners and vice versa, they all have Islam and that's why they married.
There is no commonality between me and my wife in terms of race, ethnicity, language, culture except Islam
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You guys are infatuated with "white skin" and their research. Someone else is quoting me a "White Christian Missionary" in another thread who says that Arabic can it be read without dots and vowels and I am showing him Aljazeera (let alone Quran)
Don't care about your Colonel Wilkes, if you think in alternative facts, provide full family history, lineage and witnesses.
I provided Tipu Sultan lineage and the book I quoted provides Ottoman records about his ancestors
You and your "serious discussions" are just ...
Phul Support to the White Master, Sir
Serious discussion from a WhatsApp university graduate? Okey dokey...
Romali_rotti
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So there we have it folks. Tupu shullltaaan didn't use the fair and lovely cream, he was a descendant from the Ottoman Turks.
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Infatuation with "White skin" and also a reading deficit, deadly combinationSo there we have it folks. Tupu shullltaaan didn't use the fair and lovely cream, he was a descendant from the Ottoman Turks.
Tipu Sultan Arab Lineage (Makkah to Hindustan)
- Tipu sultan son of
- Haider Ali, son of
- Fateh Muhammad, son of
- Muhammad Ali, son of
- Wali Muhammad, son of
- Muhammad Bahlul, son of
- Hasan, son of
- Ibraheem, son of
- Abdul-Ghani, son of
- Ahmed, son of
- Muhammad, son of
- Hasan Ibn Yahya (died 1469) who was appointed as Shareef of Makkah by the Ottomans
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Hindutva Logic
- The color of skin doesn't matter but Tipu Sultan was fair skinned
- The ethnicity doesn't matter but Tipu Sultan wasn't a Turk or Afghan but an Arab. There are millions of Indian Muslims who are not native converts but ethnically Turk or Afghan or Arab and their forefathers emigrated to India
Romali_rotti
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Infatuation with "White skin" and also a reading deficit, deadly combination
Tipu Sultan Arab Lineage (Makkah to Hindustan)
- Tipu sultan son of
- Haider Ali, son of
- Fateh Muhammad, son of
- Muhammad Ali, son of
- Wali Muhammad, son of
- Muhammad Bahlul, son of
- Hasan, son of
- Ibraheem, son of
- Abdul-Ghani, son of
- Ahmed, son of
- Muhammad, son of
- Hasan Ibn Yahya (died 1469) who was appointed as Shareef of Makkah by the Ottomans
Yes
We get it Paxstanis need Tipu to have fair skin.
Afterall Tipu is the descendant from the Turks ...
.png "Apology :apology")
Cpt. Rishwat
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What was this new Religious Force which emerged to counter the Islamic ruler?
