What's new

The myth of 'Pakistan mai talent bohat hai'

Slog

Senior Test Player
Joined
Feb 15, 2015
Runs
28,984
Post of the Week
1
Why does this myth exist?

Why do so many hold to the notion that on the streets of Pakistan potentially world class cricketers are roaming around but they are being shafted and not given a chance due ot the poor system and/or not being selected?

Is it just a defense mechanism for the obvious that our talent stocks are at an all time low and barring maybe 1 or 2, the 15 man squads we generally select ARE the best players in the country?

As a cricketing nation, we wont be able to get out of our rut, Till we get out of this mindset that some magical fast bowler like Shoaib or an Inzy like batsmen is roaming around the streets of Lahore and Karachi but are not playing for Pakistan due to the system in place. Real and mature talent always rises to the top regardless of the obstacles it faces
 
ive also noticed that if someone does suggest this they are shot down by others as if they have committeed treason. Classic case would be saeed ajmal saying this to Imran nazir recently when he said that Pakistan has the best talent in the world but PCB is not letting them come to the fore. Ajmal asked, 'where is this talent?' and then the anchors and everyone shot him down.

its also funny how regularly ppl say we have the most talented cricketers as if there is a way to measure that
 
If you mean talent as the inherent skills you are born with then I think proper training and guidance from a young age trumps talent. If Pakistan invests in a proper system to find and develop promising youngsters then you will see talent rise.
 
You would NOT have seen Sarfaraz's talent had Adnan not been injured. Similarly, Haris would not have been seen in NZ series in UAE without an injury. This shows we have the talent.
 
You would NOT have seen Sarfaraz's talent had Adnan not been injured. Similarly, Haris would not have been seen in NZ series in UAE without an injury. This shows we have the talent.

both are fairly ordinary cricketers. esp Haris who you are making it sound as if he;s the second coming of MoYo

my point is if there is talent it will always rise to the top. Mohammad yousuf is the perfect example. he had everything going against him but still made it to the very top
 
The myth exist because we want to blow our own horn. It is very easy to do so through pages like this. There is no way check on the validity of such claim so it is easy. In reality though, we are very far from the top. But why let the truth get in the way of a good argument ??? We let few sparks of brilliance balloon out of proportion .... I am sure Wahab Riaz, after what he did to Watson, is the Greatest Fast bowler who ever lived !!! Such is our mindset .... feels good though. I have seen that the Indians are far more critical of their own players than us. May be they know something that we don't ..... just may be.
 
the major question is what gives us the right to say that Pakistan has more talent than naoy other country

how do you come up with such an assertion?

the prevailing mindset is that if things were right then Pakistan would smash every other team
 
bowling talent: 9/10 - yes, cause even after losing so many from our top bowling line-up, we still managed one of the best bowling attacks in this world cup, and have pretty much always kept producing talented fast bowlers as well as spinners.

batting talent: 5/10 - situation is much worse compared to bowling, however, some good talent is there that needed/needs harnessing and developing along with a good head. lack of proper guidance (and ability and openness to take guidance), having wrong idols, not being smart/thinking cricketer, not putting in hard work has resulted in some of that talent being wasted/exposed.

fielding talent: 3/10 - apart from occasional rare good fielders, 70% of our cricketers are below average when it comes to international standard and don't even show enough improvement after going through much training/coaching.

wicket-keeping talent: 5/10 - in the last several years i am yet to see a really good wicket keeper. they are either rubbish with the bat or average to rubbish behind stumps. most international test countries dont just have one top keeper but several, sometimes they even have several options even within a playing X1 (decock/devillirs, sanga,chandimal,others, mccullum, watling, latham, etc)
 
so bottomline based on my understanding:
Pakistan has better bowling talent than average test playing nation. Probably on par with AUS/RSA/NZ at the moment.
Pakistan has average batting talent compared to average test playing nation, which performs below average due to reasons mentioned above.
Pakistan has much below average fielding talent.
Pakistan has average to below average keeping talent.
 
In 80s or 90s you could very well argue that Pakistan has most talent. Or as they say talents from the streets like MoYo used to be a rickshaw driver and was plucked into cricket.

But I agree nowadays the talent is non-existent. Just some overly hyped up wannabes/hacks. People like to blame everything from selectors to batting order for failure of our new players. But they must realize that you can't keep lid on a world-class talented player for long. If you don't see it, it probably isn't there.

And the situation is not going to get any better in future as well. The interest in cricket is dwindling massively in kids/teens in our country.
 
I think it's just due to the fact that we've had some extraordinary flair players not so long ago in the recent past, demon fast bowlers like Waz and Waqar. Then our batting was no way the mediocre unit is now and we were famed as the subcontinent is for wristy stroke makers.

However, I do not get annoyed hearing this now as performances especially with the bat is not competitive enough to challenge the top teams, granted we may get the occasional victory here and there, but mainly due to the bowling which thankfully has prevented us from slipping below the likes of Bangla, Zim etc.
 
There is actually a bigger problem.

Many people don't even know the definition of natural talent. But they keep on blabbering that we have loads of "talent".

And then they are not ready to realize that small talent supported by hard work and great work ethics is better than lots of talent not supported by hard work and a functioning brain.

"Natural Talent" wise, the top player Pakistan ever produced was obviously Wasim Akram.

His body was naturally aligned, all muscles, all ligaments, wrist position, elbow pivot, speed, trajectory, release point, shoulder, neck position, foot work, hip support and hand eye coordination - everything was naturally in a good symmetry.

Regular bowlers work hard for years to bring their bodies into such balance but Wasim was born with it - This is what you call natural talent.

Wasim worked hard but since he got ahead start, it didn't take him long to come right up top. Other bowlers also worked hard but they spent years before the reached to a point where Wasim Started.

The other player that had hint of good natural talent was Saeed Anwar. The body balance. hand eye coordination and quick brain response time to process the delivery was something that he was born with. Others worked hard to reach to this level.

Miandad on the other hand was naturally less talented but worked hard and had a fighting spiriting that kept him going.

Inzi and Yonusf were also to some extent talented but they also worked hard, Yousuf was more of naturally stylish player then a naturally talented player.

Waqar on the other hand was a brutal force.

We may have such talented players in our youngsters but they are very, very few.
Tape ball cricket culture has ruined the technique in our batsman and it has also ruined the work ethics of pace bowlers.

We will need to figure out a plan to identify those pins in the hay stack in build on them.

Sheer naturally gifted talent supported by hard work, great work ethics and an intelligent brain is what makes legendary players like Wasim, Viv Richards, Tendulkar.

We may not have that class of talent in our talent pool but we may have someone like Miandad, or Inzi or Waqar Younus - need to find him out and train him accordingly.
 
We have decent talent. And lol at OP calling Harris Sohail ordinary, You can bet with me on that he will turn out to be very fine batsman. Im concerned with opening slot, Shehzad is a pathetic batsman and disgrace to word talent, Akmal is a tailender hack, Babar Azam seems to have good potential. Azhar Ali even though limited has put in everything in game,Ideally he must come in for Shehzad.
 
We have talent, as much as you'd expect a decent cricket team to have, but the idea that we are the most naturally talented nation is a load of horse manure.

We simply don't have enough talent to become one of the top 2 teams in the world. Perhaps top 3 at best, but nothing beyond that.

This mythical crap is what keeps our egos bloated, nothing more.

About time we try to maximize the talent we have, rather than hope that from some street and backyard another Wasim, Waqar, Miandad etc. will emerge.
 
We simply don't have enough talent to become one of the top 2 teams in the world. Perhaps top 3 at best, but nothing beyond that.

We don't develop players. The talent is there.

You see Waqar making excuses right after getting knocked out from the World Cup - that there's not talent.

How can you know about talent when the deserving players are rotting in the domestic circuit? Babar, Sami, Haris was also rotting, Umar Amin not given a good run.

Many other examples.
 
We have talent, as much as you'd expect a decent cricket team to have, but the idea that we are the most naturally talented nation is a load of horse manure.

We simply don't have enough talent to become one of the top 2 teams in the world. Perhaps top 3 at best, but nothing beyond that.

This mythical crap is what keeps our egos bloated, nothing more.

About time we try to maximize the talent we have, rather than hope that from some street and backyard another Wasim, Waqar, Miandad etc. will emerge.

There is talent, but talent alone is not enough. Our domestic cricket isn't ideal for nurturing talent. It never has. Most of our legends have played county cricket where they developed. Ever since our players stopped going we stopped getting Great players.
 
We don't develop players. The talent is there.

You see Waqar making excuses right after getting knocked out from the World Cup - that there's not talent.

How can you know about talent when the deserving players are rotting in the domestic circuit? Babar, Sami, Haris was also rotting, Umar Amin not given a good run.

Many other examples.

There is talent, but talent alone is not enough. Our domestic cricket isn't ideal for nurturing talent. It never has. Most of our legends have played county cricket where they developed. Ever since our players stopped going we stopped getting Great players.

Like I said talent is there, but we need to stop romanticizing it and making tall, baseless claims that we have the most talent in the world. That is simply not true.

If we manage to nurture our talent, we will always be a competitive cricket team.. but some people give the impression as if we start nurturing our talent we'd be unstoppable and the best team in the world. That's BS.
 
The talented youngster beauties of today will be the tried and tested failures of tomorrow.
 
Like I said talent is there, but we need to stop romanticizing it and making tall, baseless claims that we have the most talent in the world. That is simply not true.

If we manage to nurture our talent, we will always be a competitive cricket team.. but some people give the impression as if we start nurturing our talent we'd be unstoppable and the best team in the world. That's BS.

IF, and this is a big IF, we manage to nurture our talent AND sort out the administration problems in the PCB i don't see why we can't end up being the best team in the world? I get your point though it is not given that we will end up being the best but the possibility is there
 
The talented youngster beauties of today will be the tried and tested failures of tomorrow.

That's true. I remember how everyone was wetting their pants 12 years ago when a young Farhat and Hameed had 4 consecutive hundred partnerships opening against New Zealand.

Unless people can convince that none of these hyped youngsters won't develop into future TTFs, there is no beating in blowing our horns.

The likes of Shehzad, Umar and Maqsood are on their way to becoming TTFs as well.
 
IF, and this is a big IF, we manage to nurture our talent AND sort out the administration problems in the PCB i don't see why we can't end up being the best team in the world? I get your point though it is not given that we will end up being the best but the possibility is there

Even if we do all of that, I really don't think we can compete with the likes of Australia and South Africa. We'd probably be on par with India and somewhat ahead of Sri Lanka.

By on par with India, I mean very strong [MENTION=71635]H[/MENTION]ome in all formats, winning another World Cup etc., but we will continue to struggle overseas just like they do.
 
You would NOT have seen Sarfaraz's talent had Adnan not been injured. Similarly, Haris would not have been seen in NZ series in UAE without an injury. This shows we have the talent.
What special has Harris done so far , he is average at best. He is not going to be lara.[emoji3]
 
Even if we do all of that, I really don't think we can compete with the likes of Australia and South Africa. We'd probably be on par with India and somewhat ahead of Sri Lanka.

By on par with India, I mean very strong [MENTION=71635]H[/MENTION]ome in all formats, winning another World Cup etc., but we will continue to struggle overseas just like they do.

Can't disagree with you there. Even with a star studded team in the 90s we were pretty bad overseas
 
you have to be one thick person to call Haris Sohail or any cricketer ordinary after 17 matches or their first big tournament.

He played averagely which is actually a phenomenal way to start off your career. You have to be pretty thick to label him ordinary. Most players in most sports don't have their best form during the first 17 matches of their career.
 
you have to be one thick person to call Haris Sohail or any cricketer ordinary after 17 matches or their first big tournament.

He played averagely which is actually a phenomenal way to start off your career. You have to be pretty thick to label him ordinary. Most players in most sports don't have their best form during the first 17 matches of their career.

I really rate Haris, and I think he's our best young batsman, but you have take things into perspective.

What are the odds that Haris will go on to be a future great? Extremely minimal. How many of our young batsmen have gone to be legends? but I can name you countless who have made promising starts to their careers.

When you look at the ratio of the successful and great Pakistani cricketers to the wasted talents, you'd see that we really need to give it a rest and stop blowing our own trumpet. About time we look to maximize whatever resources we have, rather than lie about our mythical talent reserves and how ATGs are being wasted on the streets and backyards because we don't have a system in place to give them opportunity.
 
There is only one point to make. We have one of the most dysfunctional domestic systems and administrations, if we didn't have talent we would be down there with the likes of Nepal, Singapore etc. miles behind even Bangladesh and Afghanistan. Whatever little we achieve is achieved by the natural ability of a few individual performers despite our idiotic system and administrators. Natural ability of individual performers = talent!
 
you have to be one thick person to call Haris Sohail or any cricketer ordinary after 17 matches or their first big tournament.

He played averagely which is actually a phenomenal way to start off your career. You have to be pretty thick to label him ordinary. Most players in most sports don't have their best form during the first 17 matches of their career.

Please tell did you actually follow the matches or check the scoreboard in the morning?

Against Australia he was clearing the front leg and swinging across the line. Something which is completely acceptable for a number three batsman
 
I really rate Haris, and I think he's our best young batsman, but you have take things into perspective.

What are the odds that Haris will go on to be a future great? Extremely minimal. How many of our young batsmen have gone to be legends? but I can name you countless who have made promising starts to their careers.

When you look at the ratio of the successful and great Pakistani cricketers to the wasted talents, you'd see that we really need to give it a rest and stop blowing our own trumpet. About time we look to maximize whatever resources we have, rather than lie about our mythical talent reserves and how ATGs are being wasted on the streets and backyards because we don't have a system in place to give them opportunity.

Its not about him being ATG. But people calling someone ordinary and pathetic that too after 15 Matches. In which half matches are from world cup in Aus and NZ. Anyone with decent IQ tells that he is unlike other hacks and tuks we have.
 
Please tell did you actually follow the matches or check the scoreboard in the morning?

Against Australia he was clearing the front leg and swinging across the line. Something which is completely acceptable for a number three batsman

It was master stroke of thick tank to blindly slog that day.
 
I really rate Haris, and I think he's our best young batsman, but you have take things into perspective.

What are the odds that Haris will go on to be a future great? Extremely minimal. How many of our young batsmen have gone to be legends? but I can name you countless who have made promising starts to their careers.

When you look at the ratio of the successful and great Pakistani cricketers to the wasted talents, you'd see that we really need to give it a rest and stop blowing our own trumpet. About time we look to maximize whatever resources we have, rather than lie about our mythical talent reserves and how ATGs are being wasted on the streets and backyards because we don't have a system in place to give them opportunity.

and when did I say he's going to be a great??

This is partly another problem with Pakistanis. If they think someone won't be a legend he should be discarded and tossed aside. Such expectations are also unfair on the player.

He may or may not be a great and yes the odds are against him as they are for any cricketer because being a great is unlikely. This goes for Babar Azam as well. But labelling him ordinary after he's had a solid start to his career is just knee jerk.
 
Please tell did you actually follow the matches or check the scoreboard in the morning?

Against Australia he was clearing the front leg and swinging across the line. Something which is completely acceptable for a number three batsman

dude did you even understand my comment?? I was defending Haris Sohail so I don't really understand the point of your comment. I was trying to remain modest in my praise for him. Please consider context before lashing out on people next time. Someone was calling him ordinary because he wasn't impressed with a kid 17 matches into his career and my response was even if he looks ordinary aafter 17 matches into his career that's actually phenomenal.
 
Pakistan does have a lot of talent. Our starting eleven doesn't.

Wasim, Anwar, Inzi, Waqar, Akhtar etc were very talented players.
 
LOL at people getting their knickers in a twist on me calling Haris ordinary

Fact is that he has been ordinary so far.

He has the shots and looks sound but he doesn't seem to have the composure or temperament at the moment at all. Loses all concentration when he gets to around 30 and doesn't seem to have it in him to regularly last more than 50 or so balls on a good day. He gets under pressure too easily and with an over or so of good bowling he starts to lose the plot and plays very ugly shots which invariably leads to his dismissal. These are the hallmarks of an ordinary batsman

Ofcourse he can do very well if he develops patience and doesn't get too much under pressure when he is struggling at the crease and learns to see off such periods. But going by the history of our batsmen who tend to regress in these aspects with time, only a food would expect or even hope that Haris learns these things and improves in these aspects
 
if people are looking at him relatively compared to our other heroes at the top then yeah he is great but that's minnow mentality and we will always be stuck in a rut if we don't change our approach. Comparing him to other guys in his position at the same stage in their careers is the way to go and he def does fall short in that aspect
 
also I for one just cannot buy this crack pot theory that we have future ATG's roaming around the street but the PCB is stopping them from risingto the top.

Great talent always finds a way to the top regardless of obstacles provided if it has the hunger and work ethic
 
dude did you even understand my comment?? I was defending Haris Sohail so I don't really understand the point of your comment. I was trying to remain modest in my praise for him. Please consider context before lashing out on people next time. Someone was calling him ordinary because he wasn't impressed with a kid 17 matches into his career and my response was even if he looks ordinary aafter 17 matches into his career that's actually phenomenal.

I had a typo in my post.. I meant "something that is completely unacceptable for a number three batsman"

Whether its your first match or 100th match if your release shot is clearing the front leg and swinging for the fences then you have serious issues and shouldn't really be bating at number 3.

Maybe people think he is supremely talented because he can hit a beautiful cover drive.
 
LOL at people getting their knickers in a twist on me calling Haris ordinary

Fact is that he has been ordinary so far.

He has the shots and looks sound but he doesn't seem to have the composure or temperament at the moment at all. Loses all concentration when he gets to around 30 and doesn't seem to have it in him to regularly last more than 50 or so balls on a good day. He gets under pressure too easily and with an over or so of good bowling he starts to lose the plot and plays very ugly shots which invariably leads to his dismissal. These are the hallmarks of an ordinary batsman

Ofcourse he can do very well if he develops patience and doesn't get too much under pressure when he is struggling at the crease and learns to see off such periods. But going by the history of our batsmen who tend to regress in these aspects with time, only a food would expect or even hope that Haris learns these things and improves in these aspects

Its more about how confident Haris Sohail is. Seems to be really nervous on crease maybe because he replaced media's boy YK for number 3 slot. First few matches and that too from world cup in Australia where sub continent batsmen usually struggle. We need to be patient with players who look composed and solid, Hacks like Akmal and Shehzad are reason why we are so unstable and pathetic batting line up.
 
I had a typo in my post.. I meant "something that is completely unacceptable for a number three batsman"

Whether its your first match or 100th match if your release shot is clearing the front leg and swinging for the fences then you have serious issues and shouldn't really be bating at number 3.

Maybe people think he is supremely talented because he can hit a beautiful cover drive.
So who do you think is that batsman who showed composure and solidity. This guy has a solid technique, pulls 150Kph with ease, Has good drives, And Is a conventional batsman. All of Pakistan's batters that day were slogging, Wont be surprised if thick tank adviced them to slog out of the park everything on way under an aggressive approach. :Facepalm
 
Ever heard of Sami Aslam, Mohammad Rizwan?? These guys are performing more consistently than the international players in the domestic circuit. Pak produces world class bowlers every year and you say theres no talent hahahaha
 
Ever heard of Sami Aslam, Mohammad Rizwan?? These guys are performing more consistently than the international players in the domestic circuit. Pak produces world class bowlers every year and you say theres no talent hahahaha

mohammad rizwan is average

and world class? who in our bowling is world class. I fy ou think Wahab is then you are clueless abt cricket. Ajmal was but then he wasn't bowling legally
 
Pakistan huge amount of talent, imagine if we had domestic structure and facilities like Australia noone would be able to beat us that easy. Fact that we keep producing theses cricketers without any competitive domestic structure tells you something.
 
mohammad rizwan is average

and world class? who in our bowling is world class. I fy ou think Wahab is then you are clueless abt cricket. Ajmal was but then he wasn't bowling legally

amir says hello and then steals your wallet.
 
There is only one point to make. We have one of the most dysfunctional domestic systems and administrations, if we didn't have talent we would be down there with the likes of Nepal, Singapore etc. miles behind even Bangladesh and Afghanistan. Whatever little we achieve is achieved by the natural ability of a few individual performers despite our idiotic system and administrators. Natural ability of individual performers = talent!

So Afghanistan has a better domestic system than Pakistan? I didn't realize that.
 
Every now and then a superb bowler will come through the ranks, more through luck than judgement. However when it comes to batsmen, the way things are at the moment we will rarely produce world class batsmen unless there is a huge overhaul of the mindset and the people running Pakistan cricket.
 
There is probably more natural talent in Afghanistan than Pakistan at the moment and they are selecting their team with players of ability and on merit.
 
Every now and then a superb bowler will come through the ranks, more through luck than judgement. However when it comes to batsmen, the way things are at the moment we will rarely produce world class batsmen unless there is a huge overhaul of the mindset and the people running Pakistan cricket.

But you do need batsman in cricket to be competitive.
 
I will bring in a management perspective into it. For anyone to be successful 3 things are required- Capability, Skill and Attitude.

Capability if somewhat what we call Talent. Many players may have talent but it is not that they are only in Pak. Somehow Pak people have this fantasy that they are the most talented lot in all fields. They have been tuned like this which is ********. The capability to make a good team will always be there is Pakistan, India, BD etc coz they have more people, interest for the game. Other countries with lesser of population will have dearth of it.
However it is not like this capability cannot be increased. With practice hard work this can be built but obviously a person with a better start will be a better player

Skill is the second set required. This is incorporated into people via coaching, training and techniques. This is where countries like Aus and NZ really do well. Skill is a set which keeps on moving up and up and hence hard work is required to match it. Here in Indian Subcontinent, SL do a very good job. India have since Ganguly and money coming also really worked here especially in fielding and batting. Pak are way way behind here and I don't see PCB competent enough to get in here

AttitudeThis is the final piece of puzzle. This is most important. You may have above 2 but without this you cannot do this. Pak really lack here. Leading examples are Ahmed Shehzad, Umar Akmal. They have pathetic attitudes and are worth throwing out of the team as their present attitude they think themselves as above the team. If they are thrown out and they get some tension that may force them to improve.
In this aspect 2 teams deserve special mention- NZ and SL. This is the point where they gel as a team covering weak players and making 1+1=11. Aussies also have this. In Pakistan this is the field which is ignored. Afridi, Younus can make statements in Media, people with vested interests everywhere.

So this is how a team is built. In Pak many people are under many myths. "We are most talented not just in cricket". What they think is awesome is infact not extraordinary plus just a small piece of whole game.
 
[MENTION=138463]Slog[/MENTION]

You're right. Let me step back a minute. No one knows what the operative definition of talent is. As you know, hardly quantifiable. Even if someone defines talent, you won't find much consensus. I wrote a thread some weeks ago where I raised questions about having a larger "talent pool". See below.

In India and Pakistan, cricket has an almost monopolistic hold on the sporting affections of its over a billion people. According to a survey, 80% of Indians under the age of 25 followed cricket “to a great extent” or “somewhat”. By contrast, New Zealand has a bit over 4 million people, who mostly prefer rugby to cricket, yet their cricket team has a good chance of winning the World Cup.

So what explains the under performance of subcontinent teams, despite having a larger talent pool? In my mind, it has to do with poor cricket administration. It represents our broader failure to harness and develop the skills of our giant populations
 
So Afghanistan has a better domestic system than Pakistan? I didn't realize that.

Yes you didn't realize that because you don't realize the support they get from the icc. I live in Dubai and my kids play cricket at th icc cricket academy he Afghanistan team is there all the time getting access to the best facilities in the world. once again the point being they are actually getting help developing whatever talent they produce. And by the way their under -19 team thrashed our in a series I pakistani not long ago, so it may not be their domestic system but the system the icc has developed for them is helping them more than anything we have.
 
Every now and then a superb bowler will come through the ranks, more through luck than judgement. However when it comes to batsmen, the way things are at the moment we will rarely produce world class batsmen unless there is a huge overhaul of the mindset and the people running Pakistan cricket.

The reason for that is the bowling is a more physical and natural ability based exercise whereas as batting requires both natural ability and technique, temperament etc.. It is an art that requires development, training ,constant growth, these are factors that our domestic system does not allow us.
 
We need more players like Hafeez, who despite his short comings actually worked on his game. He's still not the greatest player we have, but unlike most players that come into the team, he improved rather than digressed. Really seems like an issue with the culture, the Shehzads, Akmals and Maqsoods need to know they can be dropped. These guys have learnt nothing since the day they started. You would expect them to improve but it's always the same mistakes.
 
Honestly its not a myth. The WC squad had the potential to win this WC. But there were confidence issues especially with our batsmen. They were playing with the fear of getting out almost every time. Temperamental issues more as well. They werent brave at the big stage. Couldnt handle pressure well.
 
Honestly its not a myth. The WC squad had the potential to win this WC. But there were confidence issues especially with our batsmen. They were playing with the fear of getting out almost every time. Temperamental issues more as well. They werent brave at the big stage. Couldnt handle pressure well.

lets assume what you say in the first couple of senstencesis true.

but isn't temperament and handling pressure also hall marks of a great talent
 
We need more players like Hafeez, who despite his short comings actually worked on his game. He's still not the greatest player we have, but unlike most players that come into the team, he improved rather than digressed. Really seems like an issue with the culture, the Shehzads, Akmals and Maqsoods need to know they can be dropped. These guys have learnt nothing since the day they started. You would expect them to improve but it's always the same mistakes.

all our young batsmen regress with time
which is why I laugh at ppl who are tipping Maqsood and Haris to go on to become sth special.

My money is on both regressing. In any case I don't think Maqsood has the skill level and shots to go to the next level anyways but Haris does to an extent but knowing our history he wont
 
Watching the two semi-finals was eye-opening as in ODIs, we are a million miles away from the top four sides. It seems easier for fans to say there's an untapped gold mine of talent than to actually admit we aren't good enough.

To drive up the quality of players we produce, we must drive up the competitiveness. This argument that we have to have a large number of teams in domestic cricket because Pakistan is a country of 180 million doesn't wash as ultimately you can only pick 11 in your national team. These 11 players must be the cream of the crop.
 
all our young batsmen regress with time
which is why I laugh at ppl who are tipping Maqsood and Haris to go on to become sth special.

My money is on both regressing. In any case I don't think Maqsood has the skill level and shots to go to the next level anyways but Haris does to an extent but knowing our history he wont
I thought Harris had brains, up until what he was doing against Australia once he reached 30. Maqsoods a slogger. And yessss, regress was the word I was looking for, not digress.
 
Watching the two semi-finals was eye-opening as in ODIs, we are a million miles away from the top four sides. It seems easier for fans to say there's an untapped gold mine of talent than to actually admit we aren't good enough.

To drive up the quality of players we produce, we must drive up the competitiveness. This argument that we have to have a large number of teams in domestic cricket because Pakistan is a country of 180 million doesn't wash as ultimately you can only pick 11 in your national team. These 11 players must be the cream of the crop.
our main weakness is fielding and until it sees improvement we cannot honestly expect to improve in other aspects.

we are light years away from the level of top fielding sides. the difference in standard always used to be there but from the 90s to now it has prolly gone up significantly. India are closer to SA, AUS, NZ now while we are same place.

and the thing abt fielding is that it is least dependent on natural talent and is everything abt hard work and commitment. The lvel of fielding is a good gauge of how committed and hard working a player is.
 
I thought Harris had brains, up until what he was doing against Australia once he reached 30. Maqsoods a slogger. And yessss, regress was the word I was looking for, not digress.

Haris has brains because he plays the shots according to the ball delivered.

Those slogs again Aus were him getting under pressure and losing the plot after a string of dot balls. But when he is calm he looks good. But I don't think he has the temperament to last more than 50 odd balls on most days.

Thing Ive noticed in Maqsood is that regardless of the situation he plays stupid shots and doesn't play according to the merit. Often he plays across the line or plays a wild swing off a slower ball and misses it completely. This shows that his reading of the game and the shot selection is very poor and hence he can be termed as a slogger. Its not that like Haris he lacks temperament or wilts under pressure but its more of him just not being equipped to be a proper batsman
 
Yes you didn't realize that because you don't realize the support they get from the icc. I live in Dubai and my kids play cricket at th icc cricket academy he Afghanistan team is there all the time getting access to the best facilities in the world. once again the point being they are actually getting help developing whatever talent they produce. And by the way their under -19 team thrashed our in a series I pakistani not long ago, so it may not be their domestic system but the system the icc has developed for them is helping them more than anything we have.

Good to know that Afghans are getting some help from ICC.
 
Harris Sohail hasn't done anything special to warrant next-big-thing praises.

Considering the hype he came on the back of, he's shown nothing exceptional so far. Has serious troubles piercing the infield against pace bowling. Connects the ball beautifully but straight to fielders. When spinners come on, he's all at sea, can't rotate strike or play ground strokes. Ugly hoicks to clear circle where 90% of the time his bat tilts in his hands. The only pressure-release shot he got is that cut to the third man. Intelligent captains like Dhoni sense this, and he promptly installed a deep slip when Ashwin was on. Haris Sohail had no clue what to do.

He may improve with time, but for God's sake, please stop hyping
 
Harris Sohail hasn't done anything special to warrant next-big-thing praises.

Considering the hype he came on the back of, he's shown nothing exceptional so far. Has serious troubles piercing the infield against pace bowling. Connects the ball beautifully but straight to fielders. When spinners come on, he's all at sea, can't rotate strike or play ground strokes. Ugly hoicks to clear circle where 90% of the time his bat tilts in his hands. The only pressure-release shot he got is that cut to the third man. Intelligent captains like Dhoni sense this, and he promptly installed a deep slip when Ashwin was on. Haris Sohail had no clue what to do.

He may improve with time, but for God's sake, please stop hyping


That's what my major point is.

Haris was the most hyped thing and for 2 years we kept hearing on how the next Pakistani superstar batsman was not getting his chance and that he was far ahead of everyone in terms to talent and technique in domestic cricket.

And this is what we got. A player with some potential but with tons of weaknesses. So this is the best we had to offer after so much hype which begs the question, 'kahaan hai yeh bohat talent?'
 
[MENTION=138463]Slog[/MENTION]

You're right. Let me step back a minute. No one knows what the operative definition of talent is. As you know, hardly quantifiable. Even if someone defines talent, you won't find much consensus. I wrote a thread some weeks ago where I raised questions about having a larger "talent pool". See below.

In India and Pakistan, cricket has an almost monopolistic hold on the sporting affections of its over a billion people. According to a survey, 80% of Indians under the age of 25 followed cricket “to a great extent” or “somewhat”. By contrast, New Zealand has a bit over 4 million people, who mostly prefer rugby to cricket, yet their cricket team has a good chance of winning the World Cup.

So what explains the under performance of subcontinent teams, despite having a larger talent pool? In my mind, it has to do with poor cricket administration. It represents our broader failure to harness and develop the skills of our giant populations

I disagree.

Real Talent always rises to the top despite obstacles

Drogba, the Toure brothers etc came from some of the poorest backgrounds in Africa and are global superstars in soccer. Do you think they had access to even basic facilities. They barely had soccer cleats. But they rose to the top. Same with a lot of cricketers tbh. Yousuf had everything going against him but he rose to the top/

Proper administration and structure means we will be able to harness what we have and maybe make them more professiona, fitter and smarter in terms of decision making. So we'll get some good cricketers.

But its a folly to belive that a proper system will give us a Wasim Akram but it won tnow
 
Harris Sohail hasn't done anything special to warrant next-big-thing praises.

Considering the hype he came on the back of, he's shown nothing exceptional so far. Has serious troubles piercing the infield against pace bowling. Connects the ball beautifully but straight to fielders. When spinners come on, he's all at sea, can't rotate strike or play ground strokes. Ugly hoicks to clear circle where 90% of the time his bat tilts in his hands. The only pressure-release shot he got is that cut to the third man. Intelligent captains like Dhoni sense this, and he promptly installed a deep slip when Ashwin was on. Haris Sohail had no clue what to do.

He may improve with time, but for God's sake, please stop hyping

Give him time. By no means am I hyping him as the next thing, but looks a solid middle order batsmen in my view. Remember, he played a handful of matches and then all of a sudden WC in Australia.

Poor planning as usual by PCB. Instead of getting him to settle in a role, he gets thrown into the wolves.

Has serious spin issues right now, gets a bit bogged down because he hits good shots right to the fielder, and has trouble adjusting, but these are all things to expect out of a player who has just tested the waters at the international stage.

We don't have a world class batsmen, some players who could be very good, but no ABDV, Kohli or Amla sitting at home unfortunately. I do like Azam, and think he will be a good player, but won't hype him at all until he gets here, but neither will I say he will be a failure without playing a match.

We as Pakistani's are unfair to players, if they are seen as good, we hype them to be the next great thing, and if they aren't that, we get upset at them when they didn't dub themselves anything, they just go out there and play the game. We label them and then we get upset at the labels that we created?

LI you are more sensible than the rest, so ignore the noise of people overhyping and just let the kids play. Some will come good, some will not, but we need to keep the middle ground and neither attack them nor hype them before they are anything on either side of the equation. We won't know what a lot of these guys will be until 50-60+ matches at the international level.

Given our middle order woes since Inzi and Yousuf left, Harris looks a sound player who has issues but just needs time. We can't paint everyone with the same brush. A few bad matches here and there, and we label them. A bad shot and they are "the next Afridi" based on a couple of innings.

Being over or under critical of our players is the problem.

Until our domestic structure is worked out, this is what we have to work with, and we both know that glimpses have been shown. That Harris match winning performance against NZ for example.

Inzi in his first 30 or so matches was also in that average batsmen, low 30s average type player, and then turned it on. Of course not saying that Harris, or any of these guys will become that level of talent, but we just need to give them time to see what they actually are. Until I see enough matches to make a judgement, I will reserve it.

It is not like Akmal who came like a flash in the pan and is now nothing.

Maqsood had a poor WC, as many do, and has played 24 innings with a 33 average and a good SR. Neither good nor bad, but needs to be persisted to see what he can provide and if he will push forward.

We keep comparing him to Akmal which is completely unfair given how many matches he has played.

Let's hope for the best, not hype these guys, and wait until they have played enough matches to really make a concrete judgement.
 
A proper system won't give you Wasim Akram, but it will give you players who won't look well out of their depth at the top level and will be able to hold their own.
 
[MENTION=138463]Slog[/MENTION]

You're right. Let me step back a minute. No one knows what the operative definition of talent is. As you know, hardly quantifiable. Even if someone defines talent, you won't find much consensus. I wrote a thread some weeks ago where I raised questions about having a larger "talent pool". See below.

In India and Pakistan, cricket has an almost monopolistic hold on the sporting affections of its over a billion people. According to a survey, 80% of Indians under the age of 25 followed cricket “to a great extent” or “somewhat”. By contrast, New Zealand has a bit over 4 million people, who mostly prefer rugby to cricket, yet their cricket team has a good chance of winning the World Cup.

So what explains the under performance of subcontinent teams, despite having a larger talent pool? In my mind, it has to do with poor cricket administration. It represents our broader failure to harness and develop the skills of our giant populations

There is a HUUUGEEEE home ground factor that is supporting to an already very good NZ team in the WC.

Now, let the NZ team win the world cup and tour India to play a 10 ODI series .... what do you think would be the result?
 
There is a HUUUGEEEE home ground factor that is supporting to an already very good NZ team in the WC.

Now, let the NZ team win the world cup and tour India to play a 10 ODI series .... what do you think would be the result?

they absolutely spanked us in the ODI series hoem and away and drew the test series in whats supposed to be our fortress
 
I disagree.

Real Talent always rises to the top despite obstacles

Drogba, the Toure brothers etc came from some of the poorest backgrounds in Africa and are global superstars in soccer. Do you think they had access to even basic facilities. They barely had soccer cleats. But they rose to the top. Same with a lot of cricketers tbh. Yousuf had everything going against him but he rose to the top/

Proper administration and structure means we will be able to harness what we have and maybe make them more professiona, fitter and smarter in terms of decision making. So we'll get some good cricketers.

But its a folly to belive that a proper system will give us a Wasim Akram but it won tnow

You need to scale in the corruption factor in the social set up where talent is growing.

Yes, talent will rise up, BUT in super corrupt societies like Pakistan, a lot of talent will be filtered out due to corruption in the administrative authorities. Guaranteed !!

Sporting talented kids also go down in the sunset due to severe financial squeeze in societies like Pakistan. Earning bread becomes bigger of a challenge rather than to spend time in practicing and polishing a sporting skill.

Take for example Wasim Akram and Inzimam.
Both were unable to impress anyone with their "talent" in the regional PCB administrative staff. Why? Because the staff was incompetent and corrupt.

Wasim was picked up from the nets and Inzi was identified by a personal scout of Imran Khan who requested him to find a young batsman for 92 WC. Both got lucky instead of having their talent speak for them.
 
they absolutely spanked us in the ODI series hoem and away and drew the test series in whats supposed to be our fortress

We are a much weaker team, but I am talking about NZ playing against India in India. And you know what's gonna happen.
 
Pakistan has the most natural talent but as people want to be coaches more and more, they will start becoming like robots as other countries have. Talent is stifled by the fact that to get ahead you need a uncle or brother in high place to get selected.
 
Pakistan has the most natural talent but as people want to be coaches more and more, they will start becoming like robots as other countries have. Talent is stifled by the fact that to get ahead you need a uncle or brother in high place to get selected.

:facepalm:

this is exactly what I mea

we'd ave ateam of a fw wasims, a couple of sachin and fr good measure a Gilchirst and Imran Khan only if those guyshad influential uncles
 
You need to scale in the corruption factor in the social set up where talent is growing.

Yes, talent will rise up, BUT in super corrupt societies like Pakistan, a lot of talent will be filtered out due to corruption in the administrative authorities. Guaranteed !!

Sporting talented kids also go down in the sunset due to severe financial squeeze in societies like Pakistan. Earning bread becomes bigger of a challenge rather than to spend time in practicing and polishing a sporting skill.

Take for example Wasim Akram and Inzimam.
Both were unable to impress anyone with their "talent" in the regional PCB administrative staff. Why? Because the staff was incompetent and corrupt.

Wasim was picked up from the nets and Inzi was identified by a personal scout of Imran Khan who requested him to find a young batsman for 92 WC. Both got lucky instead of having their talent speak for them.

Wasim was 17. He would have made his debut soon enough

same with Inzy. He was selected on a hunch too and his early performances suggested he was not all that great so he was not being picked because he wasn't doing well in domestic

and youre saying ppl in African countries aren't corrupt? why doesn't corruption there or in Brazil stop great footballers from going to the top?
 
Wasim was 17. He would have made his debut soon enough

same with Inzy. He was selected on a hunch too and his early performances suggested he was not all that great so he was not being picked because he wasn't doing well in domestic

and youre saying ppl in African countries aren't corrupt? why doesn't corruption there or in Brazil stop great footballers from going to the top?

Both Wasim and Inzi were already rejects, so I doubt if they had every made it.

Yes, African countries and Brazil is corrupt; however, my point is, depending on the "amount of corruption" in a social set up, there is BOUND to be some talent filtered out before reaching the top. Whether you like it or not, but that's a fact.
 
Both Wasim and Inzi were already rejects, so I doubt if they had every made it.

Yes, African countries and Brazil is corrupt; however, my point is, depending on the "amount of corruption" in a social set up, there is BOUND to be some talent filtered out before reaching the top. Whether you like it or not, but that's a fact.


Wasin was a reject at 17 :))
Youre kidding me.

Theres a small chance that Inzy might not have made it but Wasim would have reached the top regardless
 
the major point is that if we had the best set up and infrastructure and everything you would want it still wouldn't mean that we would be destroying everyone else

it would mean that we would be more consistent maybe and not prone to collapsing one match and doing well in the other but we would still be below NZ, Aus, SA right now

my issue is the myth that we somehow have potentially world class players roaming the streets but they are not getting the chance while other countries don't have the same and are playingto full potential

what makes ppl say that we have best talent in the world?
 
Back
Top