The success of Indian universities

[CricketCartoons]

I am not trying to question your intelligence, but do you mind me asking if you have actually worked in undergraduate or graduate level research? Because the idea that a university produces some “innovation” irrespective of how much funding they get is very naive. In all of the sciences the research builds upon existing knowledge. All of these “innovations” are based off a collaboration of universities on many years of work (which essentially is published as publications, which are actually quite important PDF files). MIT or Harvard does not come up with magical innovations every 2 years. Instead they contribute to existing knowledge which may potentially lead to some major innovation.

I agree that many IIT students are more interested in moving to other Western countries. That is a fault of our developing country which is, in a way, unable to provide fruitful opportunities to there students. You can not blame the university itself for it.

I also agree that IIT is not doing enough to persuade their students to be an academic or pursue research. This is partly the fault of IIT. However again India as a whole is also to blame because for any emerging graduate working in the industry is much more fruitful (monetarily) than being an academic.

Providing job opportunities that rival developed countries, along with the creation of research based academic positions is a goal of both IIT and India. However as with all major goals in a developing country it will take some time to achieve it. However I can safely say that there have been some major improvements in this aspect recently.

So you agree that IITs have failed in their mission. End of debate.

 

[Sachin136]

So you agree that IITs have failed in their mission. End of debate.

Perhaps you should have read the lines following that. The only “mission” any university has is to provide a quality education. They say that their goals include promoting research, producing students that become world leaders etc but those are all indirect results of providing a quality education and in essence is beyond the university’s capabilities. If MIT was in India or any other developing country, there state would not be much different than IIT. No university can do anything more than provide a good education. Then, for whatever reasons, if the graduates decide to work in the industry or as an academic, it is for the most part out of the university’s control. The only thing a university can do is provide research opportunities inside the university (but if students are not interested in research in the first place, then they would not partake in this anyway) which requires funding, and they can have a rigorous curriculum which prepares students to take up research (which IIT does have),

 

[Slog]

Interesting thread [MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION]

 

[Romali_rotti]

I kind of agree with the OP, supposed great IIT and we still haven't mastered Jet engine technology!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Napa]

Interesting thread [MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION]

I kind of agree with the OP, supposed great IIT and we still haven't mastered Jet engine technology!!!!!!!!!!!!

IITs don't exist in a vacuum. They produce high quality graduates. Whatever later the graduates accomplish also depends upon the opportunities in the system.

To produce a jet engine a bachelors degree is not sufficient. You need an organization that will give you the other resources necessary.

A few years ago I read an article in New York Times about how an MIT graduate was heading to Wall Street rather than pursuing an engineering career, and this was becoming a pattern in the US. Compared to the US, engineering graduates have far less opportunity for engineering work.

 

[Napa]

IITs don't exist in a vacuum. They produce high quality graduates. Whatever later the graduates accomplish also depends upon the opportunities in the system.

To produce a jet engine a bachelors degree is not sufficient. You need an organization that will give you the other resources necessary.

A few years ago I read an article in New York Times about how an MIT graduate was heading to Wall Street rather than pursuing an engineering career, and this was becoming a pattern in the US. Compared to the US, engineering graduates have far less opportunity for engineering work.

Compared to the US, <b>Indian</b> engineering graduates have far less opportunity for engineering work.

 

[sshakir411]

A few years ago I read an article in New York Times about how an MIT graduate was heading to Wall Street rather than pursuing an engineering career, and this was becoming a pattern in the US. Compared to the US, engineering graduates have far less opportunity for engineering work.

Not too familiar with IIT but engineering grads have been working in finance/banking/management since the 80s. It's not a new trend..Since most corporations hire fresh graduates and train them..they prefer graduates with quantitative skills and engineering is known to be the one of the toughest undergrad. You'll be surprised to find out people with phd in physics are working at investment banks and people with phd in chemistry are working as consultants for McKinsey. Also most engineers who want to work in engineering end up as data analysts or project analysts/managers due to how work is done today.

 

[Napa]

Not too familiar with IIT but engineering grads have been working in finance/banking/management since the 80s. It's not a new trend..Since most corporations hire fresh graduates and train them..they prefer graduates with quantitative skills and engineering is known to be the one of the toughest undergrad. You'll be surprised to find out people with phd in physics are working at investment banks and people with phd in chemistry are working as consultants for McKinsey. Also most engineers who want to work in engineering end up as data analysts or project analysts/managers due to how work is done today.

Yes, you are correct in everything you have said. My point also was that there is no point in blaming IIT engineering graduates for the lack of technological development in India when they are not given the opportunity. It makes no sense for an IITian to work for the government and retire two levels below a civil servant at the end of his career.

 

[Yossarian]

The farmer falls ill, but in your hypothetical world there are no doctors so he promptly passes away.

This has to rank up there as being amongst the most ignorant of posts ever posted on this forum.

Farmers living far away from major towns and cities, with the nearest doctors hundreds of miles away (Australia, parts of the US and Canada, just to name a few) still live long lives, often on average much longer and healthier than those living in towns and cities due to having fresh food, fresh air and generally a healthier environment to live in.

Heck, hundreds of millions of people all around the globe still live in small villages and remote communities with not a doctor in sight, and yet they still manage to live long happy lives.

How long do you think doctors would survive if farmers weren't around to produce the food they eat?

How long do you think it would take before riots break out if farmers stopped producing food for anyone living in towns and cities? A week? 2 weeks?

How long do you think before those living in towns and cities started dying due to starvation if farmers stopped producing food for them? A month? 2 months?

The farmer's farm equipment breaks down, again no engineers around to fix it.

For centuries the only equipment that the farmers relied upon was a cart or plough pulled by a horse or ox. If fact millions of farmers all around the globe still do. And if the cart or plough broke down, they fixed it themselves. Sometimes not even a horse/ox pulled plough, but just their own brawn and a shovel or two.

 

[Syed1]

This has to rank up there as being amongst the most ignorant of posts ever posted on this forum.

Farmers living far away from major towns and cities, with the nearest doctors hundreds of miles away (Australia, parts of the US and Canada, just to name a few) still live long lives, often on average much longer and healthier than those living in towns and cities due to having fresh food, fresh air and generally a healthier environment to live in.

Heck, hundreds of millions of people all around the globe still live in small villages and remote communities with not a doctor in sight, and yet they still manage to live long happy lives.

How long do you think doctors would survive if farmers weren't around to produce the food they eat?

How long do you think it would take before riots break out if farmers stopped producing food for anyone living in towns and cities? A week? 2 weeks?

How long do you think before those living in towns and cities started dying due to starvation if farmers stopped producing food for them? A month? 2 months?

For centuries the only equipment that the farmers relied upon was a cart or plough pulled by a horse or ox. If fact millions of farmers all around the globe still do. And if the cart or plough broke down, they fixed it themselves. Sometimes not even a horse/ox pulled plough, but just their own brawn and a shovel or two.

LMAO farming isn't exactly rocket science... In a hypothetical scenario where the world is only inhabited by doctors and engineers I'm sure some of them will be smart enough to put seeds in the ground and water it every few days.

Takes a special kind of person to jump in a "hypothetical" discussion and say "this has to be the most ignorant post on the forum"

 

[Yossarian]

LMAO farming isn't exactly rocket science...

Farming is a very complex science. Even an uneducated farmer, but with farming skills passed on from father to son, has a wealth of knowledge that you can only dream of. From what crops to seed and when, which crops will thrive in which kinds of soils and environmental conditions, how to ward off pests and disease, which crops to grow near each other and which not, when and how to rotate and/or leave fallow, when/how to prune and/or propagate cuttings, the optimum time to harvest ...etc - and that's just for crops.

In a hypothetical scenario where the world is only inhabited by doctors and engineers I'm sure some of them will be smart enough to put seeds in the ground and water it every few days.

Takes a special kind of person to jump in a "hypothetical" discussion and say "this has to be the most ignorant post on the forum"

"In a hypothetical scenario where the world is only inhabited by doctors and engineers" they'll very quickly revert to being manual labourers, carpenters and brickies (otherwise who else is going to build their houses to live in?), plumbers, hairdressers (for obvious reasons), farmers (food?), mechanics, cooks, cleaners ....

You're right, it does take a special kind of (ignorant) person that thinks that the ability to grow and harvest the right kinds of crops in the right places, in the right soils, under the right conditions , ..... basically, to provide the most fundamental need of all, food, is not the most important skill of all.

 

[Syed1]

Farming is a very complex science. Even an uneducated farmer, but with farming skills passed on from father to son, has a wealth of knowledge that you can only dream of. From what crops to seed and when, which crops will thrive in which kinds of soils and environmental conditions, how to ward off pests and disease, which crops to grow near each other and which not, when and how to rotate and/or leave fallow, when/how to prune and/or propagate cuttings, the optimum time to harvest ...etc - and that's just for crops.

"In a hypothetical scenario where the world is only inhabited by doctors and engineers" they'll very quickly revert to being manual labourers, carpenters and brickies (otherwise who else is going to build their houses to live in?), plumbers, hairdressers (for obvious reasons), farmers (food?), mechanics, cooks, cleaners ....

You're right, it does take a special kind of (ignorant) person that thinks that the ability to grow and harvest the right kinds of crops in the right places, in the right soils, under the right conditions , ..... basically, to provide the most fundamental need of all, food, is not the most important skill of all.

Let me break it down for you and make it SUPER simple so that you can wrap your head around it.


A doctor/engineer can be a farmer, but a farmer cannot be a doctor/engineer without years of training and education.

 

[Yossarian]

Let me break it down for you and make it SUPER simple so that you can wrap your head around it.


A doctor/engineer can be a farmer, but a farmer cannot be a doctor/engineer without years of training and education.

It's pointless arguing with childish logic like that. I'll just leave it there.

 

[Napa]

NEW DELHI: Brand IIT may have just got bigger. This year, for the first time, investment firms, which usually hire management graduates from Princeton, Wharton and MIT, were seen knocking on the doors of IIT Delhi to recruit engineering graduates for finance jobs.
The annual pay packages are in the range of $60,000-100,000 . the same amount that a Wharton or MIT graduate for the same position would be offered. Out of the batch of 450, about 25 have got offers from I-banks like Merrill Lynch, PIMCO, Deutsche Bank, Goldman Sachs, UBS and Lehman Brothers. Rachit Jain,who has got an offer of $100,000 from Pacific Investment Management Company (PIMCO), is elated.


wats the point of hiring engineering graduate's with no commerce background for mgmt jobs like I-bankin etc?

I assume it makes even less sense now...

Students at the Indian Institute of Technology (IIT) Kanpur have received a total of 940 offers till Day 4 in the ongoing placement drive.

So far, at the end of Day 4, the institute received 47 international offers. This is a big jump of about 150% over last year when total of 19 international offers were received. <b>"The highest packages so far are $ 274, 250 for international and Rs. 1.2 crore for domestic,"</b> according to the release shared by the institute. In total, 49 offers above R ..

Read more at:
https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...-150-from-last-year/articleshow/88117402.cms?

 

[BreadPakoda]

I assume it makes even less sense now...

$275k is very impressive. I’d be curious to know how much the stock component and bonus are. Although even if it’s 50% fixed + 50% stock and joining bonus, it’s still impressive.

 

[BreadPakoda]

Consulting pays ~$160-175k fixed, up to $60-70k year end bonus, and ~$30k joining bonus

 

[BreadPakoda]

^to fresh MBA grads (t15)

 

[Napa]

$275k is very impressive. I’d be curious to know how much the stock component and bonus are. Although even if it’s 50% fixed + 50% stock and joining bonus, it’s still impressive.

I think even more impressive is a domestic package of Rs. 1.2 cr which equals $158K.

Back when I graduated last century our domestic packages were around 0.015 cr (Rs. 150,000) pa

We did also have international placements, Schlumberger recruited 3 of my batch mates (out of a total batch of about 200) and sent them off to remote locations around the world to drill for oil. Schlumberger paid them $60,000 which we thought was an unimaginable amount.

 

[BreadPakoda]

I think even more impressive is a domestic package of Rs. 1.2 cr which equals $158K.

Back when I graduated last century our domestic packages were around 0.015 cr (Rs. 150,000) pa

We did also have international placements, Schlumberger recruited 3 of my batch mates (out of a total batch of about 200) and sent them off to remote locations around the world to drill for oil. Schlumberger paid them $60,000 which we thought was an unimaginable amount.

Absolutely. INR 1.2 cr package is massive. Any idea which company offered it? Can’t be FAANG. AFAIK they offer around INR 30-35 lpa.

Aware of Schlum. That job comes with a lot of risk, though. But also gives you a good shot at HBS.

 

[Napa]

Absolutely. INR 1.2 cr package is massive. Any idea which company offered it? Can’t be FAANG. AFAIK they offer around INR 30-35 lpa.

Aware of Schlum. That job comes with a lot of risk, though. But also gives you a good shot at HBS.

Yes, the 3 guys went off to US grad schools after a year or two at Schlum.

 

[cricketjoshila]

I think even more impressive is a domestic package of Rs. 1.2 cr which equals $158K.

Back when I graduated last century our domestic packages were around 0.015 cr (Rs. 150,000) pa

We did also have international placements, Schlumberger recruited 3 of my batch mates (out of a total batch of about 200) and sent them off to remote locations around the world to drill for oil. Schlumberger paid them $60,000 which we thought was an unimaginable amount.

Which IIT?

 

[Napa]

Which IIT?

Replied by email

 

[PakLFC]

Indian people value mainstream education much more then we do. This is why they have so many CEO's in high tech companies. They are an example not only to Pakistan but most Muslim countries when it comes to such things.

On matters of mainstream education they are way ahead of us.

 

[mustang]

It is never too late for Pakistan to establish something similar. I think the current socio-political setup in Pakistan with zero priority on proper education is the biggest obstacle.

What are currently the most prestigious schools in Pakistan for engineering, business/management, medicine? Is there one such school across each of these disciplines that has some level of national identity and aspiration point for students or are there many? Can some of the posters from Pakistan shed some light?

 

[RajBan]

Indian people value mainstream education much more then we do. This is why they have so many CEO's in high tech companies. They are an example not only to Pakistan but most Muslim countries when it comes to such things.

On matters of mainstream education they are way ahead of us.

What do you mean by mainstream education? How are top Pakistani Universities different in their approach - like LUMS, IBA etc? Likely top students in Pakistan will have same level of education, access to materials, quality of teaching stuff. Where does it go different?

 

[mustang]

What do you mean by mainstream education? How are top Pakistani Universities different in their approach - like LUMS, IBA etc? Likely top students in Pakistan will have same level of education, access to materials, quality of teaching stuff. Where does it go different?

How do LUMS and IBA compare with the IITs and IIMs of India? I believe there are multiple IITs and IIMs in India. How any institutions like LUMS and IBA exist in Pakistan?

In short - how does the quantity and quality of such institutions in Pakistan compare with those of India, while adjusted for population (220 Million versus 1.4 Billion)?

One point to note - I think the IITs themselves are barely at median level when it comes to international standards (as much as the Indians tout about IITs). In terms of facilities, quality of teaching, academic research etc, I would contend that an institution like UC Davis (median level university in the US) outperforms an IIT. I think what an IIT does offer is a path for "redemption" for common Indians and thus it is like a shark chum that attracts the top few intelligent+diligent in the population set.

 

[RajBan]

How do LUMS and IBA compare with the IITs and IIMs of India? I believe there are multiple IITs and IIMs in India. How any institutions like LUMS and IBA exist in Pakistan?

In short - how does the quantity and quality of such institutions in Pakistan compare with those of India, while adjusted for population (220 Million versus 1.4 Billion)?

One point to note - I think the IITs themselves are barely at median level when it comes to international standards (as much as the Indians tout about IITs). In terms of facilities, quality of teaching, academic research etc, I would contend that an institution like UC Davis (median level university in the US) outperforms an IIT. I think what an IIT does offer is a path for "redemption" for common Indians and thus it is like a shark chum that attracts the top few intelligent+diligent in the population set.

I think as some posters said, some of the top students in the country go to IIT, so that helps even though as an institution they have much scope to improve on several areas when compared to global equivalents.

 

[PakLFC]

What do you mean by mainstream education? How are top Pakistani Universities different in their approach - like LUMS, IBA etc? Likely top students in Pakistan will have same level of education, access to materials, quality of teaching stuff. Where does it go different?

I mean normal school's, colleges and universities where subjects other the religion are taught. You know chemistry and business studies so forth. When so many kid's don't even attend regular school in Pak then there is no way for them to progress to higher studies. The Pak majority will have no idea what LUMS or even PhD is. Just get them in to a madrassa that way at least they get a chance to leave home.

 

[RajBan]

I mean normal school's, colleges and universities where subjects other the religion are taught. You know chemistry and business studies so forth. When so many kid's don't even attend regular school in Pak then there is no way for them to progress to higher studies. The Pak majority will have no idea what LUMS or even PhD is. Just get them in to a madrassa that way at least they get a chance to leave home.

Got it. Isn't there a concept of government schools at a village, town and district level? Typically in India there are tons of such schools in villages and towns. The quality can be **** poor, less teachers etc but they are not religious schools and focusses on primary studies which somewhat aligns to mainstream. Infact some of the district schools used to be top notch when I was in school in 90s. Not sure how they are performing today.

 

[PakLFC]

Got it. Isn't there a concept of government schools at a village, town and district level? Typically in India there are tons of such schools in villages and towns. The quality can be **** poor, less teachers etc but they are not religious schools and focusses on primary studies which somewhat aligns to mainstream. Infact some of the district schools used to be top notch when I was in school in 90s. Not sure how they are performing today.

Such concepts in Pak only apply on paper. Let alone girl's even boy's have no interest in attending school. School's are then used where cattle roams freely or as toilets by people! There is a reason why India has so many CEO's and Pak has none because you guy's pay heed to education where as we are obsessed with religion most of the time. We must thank General Zia for enlightening us so much that we are perhaps the worst country in the world when it comes to attending basic school's. Poor quality is better then no quality at all, in this regard even our Cricketers are a major embarrassment being so poorly educated. By this I do not mean their lack of understanding/speaking the English language rather no educational qualifications. Other then Cricket they no nothing at all.

 

[PakLFC]

Most Pak people probably think PhD like LBW must be a rule in Cricket. That is how bad things in Pak are that the professor agree's!! It is futile to compare Indian universities to Pak ones.

 

[RajBan]

Such concepts in Pak only apply on paper. Let alone girl's even boy's have no interest in attending school. School's are then used where cattle roams freely or as toilets by people! There is a reason why India has so many CEO's and Pak has none because you guy's pay heed to education where as we are obsessed with religion most of the time. We must thank General Zia for enlightening us so much that we are perhaps the worst country in the world when it comes to attending basic school's. Poor quality is better then no quality at all, in this regard even our Cricketers are a major embarrassment being so poorly educated. By this I do not mean their lack of understanding/speaking the English language rather no educational qualifications. Other then Cricket they no nothing at all.

Hmm. I think that is also one area where some work needs to be done. Unless there is a change at a grassroot school system, big universities like IITs won't have that kind of impact.

 

[Napa]

One point to note - I think the IITs themselves are barely at median level when it comes to international standards (as much as the Indians tout about IITs). In terms of facilities, quality of teaching, academic research etc, I would contend that an institution like UC Davis (median level university in the US) outperforms an IIT. I think what an IIT does offer is a path for "redemption" for common Indians and thus it is like a shark chum that attracts the top few intelligent+diligent in the population set.

IITs are indeed not known for their research output or facilities. They are famous for the quality of students they graduate. While UC Davis may have better facilities, it comes nowhere near the IITs in, say the number of McKinsey partners.

As for the quality of teaching, the curriculum was pretty challenging and if the professor was not up to the mark, we simply relied on the textbooks (which were invariably American) to learn the subject. The exams were always tough, so one couldn’t get away without learning.

 

[BreadPakoda]

IITs are indeed not known for their research output or facilities. They are famous for the quality of students they graduate. While UC Davis may have better facilities, it comes nowhere near the IITs in, say the number of McKinsey partners.

As for the quality of teaching, the curriculum was pretty challenging and if the professor was not up to the mark, we simply relied on the textbooks (which were invariably American) to learn the subject. The exams were always tough, so one couldn’t get away without learning.

Not fair to compare all IITs with UC Davis to begin with. Also, IIT engineers don’t end up becoming McKinsey partners without getting a target school MBA. Hardly any IIT engineer (without a target school MBA) even gets an interview invite for a front end consulting role at McKinsey.

 

[Napa]

Not fair to compare all IITs with UC Davis to begin with. Also, IIT engineers don’t end up becoming McKinsey partners without getting a target school MBA. Hardly any IIT engineer (without a target school MBA) even gets an interview invite for a front end consulting role at McKinsey.

I was comparing the career paths of IIT grads and UC Davis grads. Yes, many IIT grads join McKinsey after a grad degree.

Also, McKinsey, BCG, Booz etc. recruit both bachelors and MBA grads. The bachelors get to be "Analysts" whereas the MBA become "Associates". I believe McKinsey does recruit "Analysts" straight out of the IITs. That and investment banks are the reason why we are seeing the massive escalation of starting packages for fresh IIT grads. It has been a few decades since I graduated, so my info may not be accurate.

 

[BreadPakoda]

I was comparing the career paths of IIT grads and UC Davis grads. Yes, many IIT grads join McKinsey after a grad degree.

Also, McKinsey, BCG, Booz etc. recruit both bachelors and MBA grads. The bachelors get to be "Analysts" whereas the MBA become "Associates". I believe McKinsey does recruit "Analysts" straight out of the IITs. That and investment banks are the reason why we are seeing the massive escalation of starting packages for fresh IIT grads. It has been a few decades since I graduated, so my info may not be accurate.

They do but afaik only a handful and that too mostly from IIT B/D only. McKinsey knowledge center does recruit more than a handful graduates from IITs and Tier-2 engineering and commerce colleges.

 

[BreadPakoda]

My o/a point was more general that comparing UC Davis with IITs (that too clubbing multiple IITs together) is flawed to begin with.

 

[Napa]

My o/a point was more general that comparing UC Davis with IITs (that too clubbing multiple IITs together) is flawed to begin with.

In another thread [MENTION=150563]Giannis[/MENTION] mentioned the lack of leading firms that were started by Indians.

In my opinion, Indians had to face a massive hurdle. In India thanks to socialism, in the second half of the 20th century there were no opportunities (except for exceptions like Infosys and Wipro). When an Indian student came to the US, for at least the first 10 to 15 years a major concern was getting a green card. That left them tied to their jobs without the freedom of the sort Bill Gates or Jeff Bezos had. Also, they had no financial safety net provided by parents, family and friends.

The 20s are a major time for getting on the path to entrepreneurial success.

 

[hoshiarpurexpress]

In another thread [MENTION=150563]Giannis[/MENTION] mentioned the lack of leading firms that were started by Indians.

In my opinion, Indians had to face a massive hurdle. In India thanks to socialism, in the second half of the 20th century there were no opportunities (except for exceptions like Infosys and Wipro). When an Indian student came to the US, for at least the first 10 to 15 years a major concern was getting a green card. That left them tied to their jobs without the freedom of the sort Bill Gates or Jeff Bezos had. Also, they had no financial safety net provided by parents, family and friends.

The 20s are a major time for getting on the path to entrepreneurial success.

Infosys, Paytm, Reliance,Zoho, Zomato, Flipkart. Lot of Indian founders/co-founders in Silicon Valley.. There is a big list of Indian based multi billion corporations started by middle class Indians.

 

[Napa]

Infosys, Paytm, Reliance,Zoho, Zomato, Flipkart. Lot of Indian founders/co-founders in Silicon Valley.. There is a big list of Indian based multi billion corporations started by middle class Indians.

True... however, I believe the number would have been significantly larger if the Indian students who came to the US were not forced to continue in jobs which provided them H1-B visas and had the same freedom to set up new firms like US citizens did.

 

[BreadPakoda]

In another thread [MENTION=150563]Giannis[/MENTION] mentioned the lack of leading firms that were started by Indians.

In my opinion, Indians had to face a massive hurdle. In India thanks to socialism, in the second half of the 20th century there were no opportunities (except for exceptions like Infosys and Wipro). When an Indian student came to the US, for at least the first 10 to 15 years a major concern was getting a green card. That left them tied to their jobs without the freedom of the sort Bill Gates or Jeff Bezos had. Also, they had no financial safety net provided by parents, family and friends.

The 20s are a major time for getting on the path to entrepreneurial success.

Absolutely agree with you.

 

[mustang]

I was comparing the career paths of IIT grads and UC Davis grads. Yes, many IIT grads join McKinsey after a grad degree.

Also, McKinsey, BCG, Booz etc. recruit both bachelors and MBA grads. The bachelors get to be "Analysts" whereas the MBA become "Associates". I believe McKinsey does recruit "Analysts" straight out of the IITs. That and investment banks are the reason why we are seeing the massive escalation of starting packages for fresh IIT grads. It has been a few decades since I graduated, so my info may not be accurate.

Interesting points above. Is this only from a specific IIT or from all IITs? Also, are some of the IITs better than the others?

For reference - I come from an MBB background working on M&A based growth. I'm in a mid-market PE firm now. Majority of hires I saw at Indian offices during my consulting times were back office operations. I wonder if that has changed now to more front office roles especially because there is higher proliferation of client base in India (which again is a result of India's economic growth resulting in more prospective local clients for them).

 

[RajBan]

Interesting points above. Is this only from a specific IIT or from all IITs? Also, are some of the IITs better than the others?

For reference - I come from an MBB background working on M&A based growth. I'm in a mid-market PE firm now. Majority of hires I saw at Indian offices during my consulting times were back office operations. I wonder if that has changed now to more front office roles especially because there is higher proliferation of client base in India (which again is a result of India's economic growth resulting in more prospective local clients for them).

There indeed is a gradual change

 

[Napa]

Interesting points above. Is this only from a specific IIT or from all IITs? Also, are some of the IITs better than the others?

For reference - I come from an MBB background working on M&A based growth. I'm in a mid-market PE firm now. Majority of hires I saw at Indian offices during my consulting times were back office operations. I wonder if that has changed now to more front office roles especially because there is higher proliferation of client base in India (which again is a result of India's economic growth resulting in more prospective local clients for them).

I think India’s economic growth is part of the story.

At the end of the day, firms want and pay for the best talent they can get. There is now a well established path for IITians to join firms like McKinsey and BCG after getting a US grad degree. So it makes sense for these firms to catch the potential recruits early, right after they graduate rather than risking another firm stealing them.

 

[mustang]

I think India’s economic growth is part of the story.

At the end of the day, firms want and pay for the best talent they can get. There is now a well established path for IITians to join firms like McKinsey and BCG after getting a US grad degree. So it makes sense for these firms to catch the potential recruits early, right after they graduate rather than risking another firm stealing them.

So this was my point about an IIT versus UC Davis comparison. Think of the university as an escalator taking you to a dinner table. Even if the escalator is old and rickety, if it is taking us to an attractive enough dinner buffet then the purpose of that escalator is getting served. Purpose here is transport enough quantity+quality of people from "below" to the "dining table".

The institution is an intermediate transport mechanism and nothing more. What makes the knowledge capital from the institution to be of better quality is the quality of the "dining table" (economic ecosystem) at the end of this transport mechanism. If the economic ecosystem (be it academic, research or industry opportunities) is abysmal at the end of this escalator, then the purpose is not served yet.

 

[Napa]

So this was my point about an IIT versus UC Davis comparison. Think of the university as an escalator taking you to a dinner table. Even if the escalator is old and rickety, if it is taking us to an attractive enough dinner buffet then the purpose of that escalator is getting served. Purpose here is transport enough quantity+quality of people from "below" to the "dining table".

The institution is an intermediate transport mechanism and nothing more. What makes the knowledge capital from the institution to be of better quality is the quality of the "dining table" (economic ecosystem) at the end of this transport mechanism. If the economic ecosystem (be it academic, research or industry opportunities) is abysmal at the end of this escalator, then the purpose is not served yet.

If I understand your analogy correctly, you are saying that the success of the IIT graduates is due to quality they start out with, rather than whatever development occurs during their time at the IITs. I think that view is partly correct, the facilities (the labs, quality of instructors etc.) are mostly ordinary. However, there are two major developmental inputs for students during their time at the IITs. 1) the company of their peer group of students which is radically better in academic quality and the professional career paths they are aspiring to, from what they had earlier in high school 2) the high quality of exams they are given. My fellow batch mates who went on to grad courses in the US often said the exams in their grad programs were no tougher.

 

[mustang]

If I understand your analogy correctly, you are saying that the success of the IIT graduates is due to quality they start out with, rather than whatever development occurs during their time at the IITs. I think that view is partly correct, the facilities (the labs, quality of instructors etc.) are mostly ordinary. However, there are two major developmental inputs for students during their time at the IITs. 1) the company of their peer group of students which is radically better in academic quality and the professional career paths they are aspiring to, from what they had earlier in high school 2) the high quality of exams they are given. My fellow batch mates who went on to grad courses in the US often said the exams in their grad programs were no tougher.

Of course network effects are always there and cannot be underestimated. I'm not sure about the #2 point you mentioned though. Exams are just that but what shapes students better would be more project/practical/real world type endeavors embedded into the education system.

If most of the grading system is through an exam (happens in some courses here in the US too), then that diminishes the output because even if that exam does not involve regurgitating some memorized formulas, and even if it involves some practical application of problem set based on theoretical learning (meaning less rote memorization), it is still just an exam.

Caltech or MIT or Berkeley churn out amazing engineers/scientists not just because of network effect or demographic selection but also due to their curriculum being designed such that output is not measured through exams at the end, right?

Don't get me wrong, I do not intend to diss your alma mater and IITs are fantastic institutions churning out great people. Perhaps if there is any room for improvement, then it could be the curriculum design? If they already have such comparable curriculums in place then I do stand corrected.

 

[Napa]

Of course network effects are always there and cannot be underestimated. I'm not sure about the #2 point you mentioned though. Exams are just that but what shapes students better would be more project/practical/real world type endeavors embedded into the education system.

If most of the grading system is through an exam (happens in some courses here in the US too), then that diminishes the output because even if that exam does not involve regurgitating some memorized formulas, and even if it involves some practical application of problem set based on theoretical learning (meaning less rote memorization), it is still just an exam.

The exams were not "just exams", they were extremely challenging. Memorizing formulas would get a student nowhere. Pick up a textbook like "Integrated Electronics" by Millman & Halkias and look at the exercises. Or machine language programming or compiler design by a student only 3 years out of high school. The exams were tough, and though the students were all very analytically proficient, at least half of them struggled.

What these exams taught the students was not any subject in particular, but analytical thinking over and over again. And most of the students ended up not as engineers, but consultants, bankers etc. where that training served them well.

Caltech or MIT or Berkeley churn out amazing engineers/scientists not just because of network effect or demographic selection but also due to their curriculum being designed such that output is not measured through exams at the end, right?

Don't get me wrong, I do not intend to diss your alma mater and IITs are fantastic institutions churning out great people. Perhaps if there is any room for improvement, then it could be the curriculum design? If they already have such comparable curriculums in place then I do stand corrected.

The theoretical component of the curriculum was comparable because the same textbooks were being used. The lab component was lacking, which could be one of the reasons why most graduates didn't go to engineering.

I don't think you are dissing the IITs, you are speaking from your experience, and I find your posts show integrity

 

[mustang]

The exams were not "just exams", they were extremely challenging. Memorizing formulas would get a student nowhere. Pick up a textbook like "Integrated Electronics" by Millman & Halkias and look at the exercises. Or machine language programming or compiler design by a student only 3 years out of high school. The exams were tough, and though the students were all very analytically proficient, at least half of them struggled.

What these exams taught the students was not any subject in particular, but analytical thinking over and over again. And most of the students ended up not as engineers, but consultants, bankers etc. where that training served them well.



The theoretical component of the curriculum was comparable because the same textbooks were being used. The lab component was lacking, which could be one of the reasons why most graduates didn't go to engineering.

I don't think you are dissing the IITs, you are speaking from your experience, and I find your posts show integrity

Thanks man, that is kind of you to say. I believe in objectivity and a reasoning based approach to a discussion/debate even if it means upsetting the kaleidoscopic balance of delicate stakeholders in an equally delicate (and sometimes biased) ecosystem.

I had to look up Millman & Halkias. I'm one of those vanilla Econ undergrads, with few years of military service that got me into a top tier B-school, followed by years in MBB and now in PE. Engineers with an ability to create new things (not the copy/paste IT services churners) have usually held me in awe.

I assume you are an electronics engineer?

Asked this before to the Pakistanis here -- What are the IIT and IIM equivalents in Pakistan? LUMS? Anything else? Where do the best and the brightest go to study in Pakistan and what do they do after studying there?

 

[Napa]

Thanks man, that is kind of you to say. I believe in objectivity and a reasoning based approach to a discussion/debate even if it means upsetting the kaleidoscopic balance of delicate stakeholders in an equally delicate (and sometimes biased) ecosystem.

I had to look up Millman & Halkias. I'm one of those vanilla Econ undergrads, with few years of military service that got me into a top tier B-school, followed by years in MBB and now in PE. Engineers with an ability to create new things (not the copy/paste IT services churners) have usually held me in awe.

I assume you are an electronics engineer?

?

They called it Electrical Engineering rather than Electronics

 

[RajBan]

What Napa is saying regarding exams is correct actually. The exams in top schools and top UNIs always are not just theoretically complex but validates practical knowledge of the students. So in order to get through students need to have clear understanding of the concepts and its applications, otherwise they will struggle to go to the next stage.

 

[amax]

Thanks man, that is kind of you to say. I believe in objectivity and a reasoning based approach to a discussion/debate even if it means upsetting the kaleidoscopic balance of delicate stakeholders in an equally delicate (and sometimes biased) ecosystem.

I had to look up Millman & Halkias. I'm one of those vanilla Econ undergrads, with few years of military service that got me into a top tier B-school, followed by years in MBB and now in PE. Engineers with an ability to create new things (not the copy/paste IT services churners) have usually held me in awe.

I assume you are an electronics engineer?

Asked this before to the Pakistanis here -- What are the IIT and IIM equivalents in Pakistan? LUMS? Anything else? Where do the best and the brightest go to study in Pakistan and what do they do after studying there?

Lums is private and is quite expensive , many bright students unless they are funded cant afford lums , brightest non A/O level students(who form the vast bulk) generally go to Public unis called UET lahore and Nust , but generally competition to enter there is very very tough because of number of applicants so lot of bright students also go to private universities.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Engineering_and_Technology,_Lahore

and Nust(semi govt)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_University_of_Sciences_&_Technology

 

[mustang]

Lums is private and is quite expensive , many bright students unless they are funded cant afford lums , brightest non A/O level students(who form the vast bulk) generally go to Public unis called UET lahore and Nust , but generally competition to enter there is very very tough because of number of applicants so lot of bright students also go to private universities.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Engineering_and_Technology,_Lahore

and Nust(semi govt)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_University_of_Sciences_&_Technology

Just looked these up and they seem like decent institutions. So it seems like Pakistan do have a good initial vehicle to identify the top 1% of the performers from among their youth. Their "escalator" (from my metaphor above) is good and they should increase the quantity of such escalators. If they can only create a good enough "dining table" (attractive enough opportunities and aspiration points for the products of these universities), then the top 1% they are identifying now can be transformed into high output members of the society.

Typically these high output 1% are the backbone for any nation's social/cultural/economic efficiency (my 2 cents). A nation succeeds if it is successful in identifying-grooming-sustaining (entire lifecycle) for this 1%. Pakistan seems to have a good step 1, and they should probably focus on creating good enough step 2 (grooming) and step 3 (sustaining).

 

[street cricketer]

Pakistan should rather invest in educating its entire masses rather than concentrating heavily on institutions like the IIT, IIM, etc., which cater to 1% of the population. And most of them would head off to the west anyway to further their careers where there are better opportunities.

While it's very important to have top institutes of global standards, what's even more important is to educate the bulk of the population residing in the villages and towns of the country, instead of concentrating on the 1%. A bottom up approach is required for countries like India, Pakistan and Bangladesh than a top down approach. Otherwise you'll just have great urban clusters, but the urban-rural divide would be very stark. Perfect example - Gujarat has a lot of industries and ranks very high in gdp per capita terms. Yet nearly 20% of its population lives in poverty, meaning a lot of money is generated within the state, but it's concentrated within the elite, and therefore the urban-rural divide is much greater than say Punjab or Tamil Nadu or Kerala.

Currently around 72% of Pakistan's youth population (15-24) is literate. The corresponding figure for India and Bangladesh is close to 95%.

Pakistan's GER (Gross Enrollment Ratio) for tertiary education is around 12%. Meaning only 12% of those students who finish highschool enter college. The same figure for India is around 29%. The figure for some south Indian states is just over 50%, and that happened because they concentrated on social improvement first and then concentrated on economy. China did it the same way improving its social indices first in the 60s and 70s. So even when China had a lesser gdp per capita than India in the 60s and early 70s because of failed economic policies, its social indices like literacy, life expectancy and various other health indices were always better than India. So China was building a stronger foundation than India to capitalise on its industrial revolution. Both India and Pakistan should do the same, rather than follow the top down approach which would just aggravate inequality and result in development that's not uniform.

 

[Napa]

Pakistan should rather invest in educating its entire masses rather than concentrating heavily on institutions like the IIT, IIM, etc., which cater to 1% of the population. And most of them would head off to the west anyway to further their careers where there are better opportunities.

It's not an either or situation. Investing in education for the masses does not preclude setting up institutions for the top 1%.

Institutions for the top 1% are a positive NPV project, that is they produce more than they cost. While it is true that graduates from the top 1% will probably head to the West, I believe that for India they raised their country's profile and helped develop IT software and services industries that currently export about $150 billion a year.

The earnings generated by the top universities can be used to provide education for the masses.

I agree with you that education for the masses is absolutely critical.