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Time for India to clean up their own mess and stop blaming Pakistan

IAJ

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Now that PM Imran Khan has announced they are releasing the pilot and hopefully situation will be normal again.

But from now India have to make sure if there is any terror attack in India they need to clean it up themselves and not point finger at Pakistan.
India need to patrol their borders better and take the responsibility and stop taking the easy way out and blaming Pakistan.
 
I think this is a very fair statement. I think rather than the incompetent Indian apparatus constantly blaming and whining about militants coming across the border they should do something about it. Maybe modi needs to build a big beautiful wall just like Trump. It can have a small door in it too to let just the good ones in.

In the decades that they have spent wasting money in kashmir trying to defend it with military forces they could have walled the whole place in enough to know if the bad guys are on the inside or the outside. Just like Trump says a wall does help slow things down cuz at a minimum you have to around it. Just keep the military waiting at either end.
 
I think this is a very fair statement. I think rather than the incompetent Indian apparatus constantly blaming and whining about militants coming across the border they should do something about it. Maybe modi needs to build a big beautiful wall just like Trump. It can have a small door in it too to let just the good ones in.

In the decades that they have spent wasting money in kashmir trying to defend it with military forces they could have walled the whole place in enough to know if the bad guys are on the inside or the outside. Just like Trump says a wall does help slow things down cuz at a minimum you have to around it. Just keep the military waiting at either end.

What are you blabbing about?

The guy was born in Kashmir.

No evidence of entering anything from Pakistan

When OP said to clean up the mess, he kind of meant including people like you who blindly blame Pakistan because it sells in Modi’s India.
 
I think this is a very fair statement. I think rather than the incompetent Indian apparatus constantly blaming and whining about militants coming across the border they should do something about it. Maybe modi needs to build a big beautiful wall just like Trump. It can have a small door in it too to let just the good ones in.

In the decades that they have spent wasting money in kashmir trying to defend it with military forces they could have walled the whole place in enough to know if the bad guys are on the inside or the outside. Just like Trump says a wall does help slow things down cuz at a minimum you have to around it. Just keep the military waiting at either end.

You do know you just you just proved the OPs point.......
 
What are you blabbing about?

The guy was born in Kashmir.

No evidence of entering anything from Pakistan

When OP said to clean up the mess, he kind of meant including people like you who blindly blame Pakistan because it sells in Modi’s India.

Thanks for clarifying my point. The reason I mentioned the border was they keep saying people come from Pakistan. Either their border patrolling is very poor or they have insiders who do it. Either way they are to be blamed themselves for their incompetence.
 
By deploying the IAF, Narendra Modi has ensured that Kashmir is conclusively internationalised.

NEW DELHI —With his reckless “pre-emptive” airstrike on Balakot in Pakistan, Prime Minister Narendra Modi has inadvertently undone what previous Indian governments almost miraculously, succeeded in doing for decades. Since 1947 the Indian Government has bristled at any suggestion that the conflict in Kashmir could be resolved by international arbitration, insisting that it is an “internal matter.” By goading Pakistan into a counter-strike, and so making India and Pakistan the only two nuclear powers in history to have bombed each other, Modi has internationalised the Kashmir dispute. He has demonstrated to the world that Kashmir is potentially the most dangerous place on earth, the flash-point for nuclear war. Every person, country, and organisation that worries about the prospect of nuclear war has the right to intervene and do everything in its power to prevent it.
On February 14 2019, a convoy of 2,500 paramilitary soldiers was attacked in Pulwama(Kashmir) by Adil Ahmad Dar, a 20-year-old Kashmiri suicide-bomber who, it has been declared, belonged to the Pakistan-based Jaish-e-Mohammad. The attack that killed at least 40 men was yet another hideous chapter in the unfolding tragedy of Kashmir. Since 1990, more than seventy thousand people have been killed in the conflict, thousands have “disappeared”, tens of thousands have been tortured and hundreds of young people maimed and blinded by pellet guns. The death toll over the last twelve months has been the highest since 2009. Associated Press reports that almost 570 people have lost their lives, 260 of them militants, 160 civilians and 150 Indian armed personnel who died in the line of duty.

Depending on the lens through which this conflict is viewed, the rebel combatants are called “terrorists”, “militants”, “freedom fighters” or “mujahids”. Most Kashmiris call them ‘mujahids’ and when they are killed, hundreds of thousands of people—whether they agree with their methods or not—turn out for their funerals, to mourn for them and bid them farewell. Indeed, most of the civilians who were killed this past year, are those who put their bodies in the way of harm to allow militants cornered by soldiers to escape.

In this long-drawn-out, blood-drenched saga, the Pulwama bombing is the deadliest, most gruesome attack of all. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of young men in the Kashmir Valley like Adil Ahmed Dar who have been born into war, who have seen such horror that they have become inured to fear and are willing to sacrifice their lives for freedom. Any day there could be another attack, worse, or less-worse than the Pulwama attack. Is the Government of India willing to allow the actions of these young men to control the fate of this country and the whole subcontinent? By reacting in the empty, theatrical way that he did, this is exactly what Narendra Modi has done. He has actually bestowed upon them the power to direct our future. The young Pulwama bomber could not have asked for more.

Most Kashmiris call these rebel combatants ‘mujahids’ and when they are killed, hundreds of thousands of people—whether they agree with their methods or not—turn out for their funerals, to mourn for them and bid them farewell.
Indians who valorise their own struggle for Independence from British Rule and virtually worship those who led it are for the most part strangely opaque to Kashmiris who are fighting for the same thing. The armed struggle in Kashmir against what people think of as “Indian Rule” is almost thirty years old. That Pakistan has (at one time officially and now mostly through non-government actors) supported the struggle with arms, men and logistics is hardly a secret. Nor is it a secret that no militant can operate in the war-zone that is Kashmir if they did not have the overt support of local people. Who in their right mind could imagine that this hellishly complicated, hellishly cruel war would be solved or even mitigated in any way by a one-off, hastily executed, theatrical “surgical-strike,” which turns out to have been not-so-surgical after all? A similar “strike” that took place after the 2016 attack on an Indian Army camp in Uri achieved little more than inspiring a Bollywood action film. The Balakot strikes in turn seem to have been inspired by the film. And now the media reports that Bollywood producers are already lining up to copyright “Balakot” as the name of their next film project. On the whole, it has to be said, this absurd waltz looks and smells more “pre-election” than “pre-emptive.”

For the Prime Minister of this country to press its formidable Airforce into performing dangerous theatrics is deeply disrespectful. And what an irony it is, that while this irresponsible nuclear brinkmanship is being played out in our subcontinent, the mighty United States of America is in talks with the Taliban forces whom it has not managed to defeat or dislodge even after 17 years of straight-out war.

The spiraling conflict in the subcontinent is certainly as deadly as it appears to be. But is it as straightforward?

Kashmir is the most densely militarized zone in the world, with an estimated half a million Indian soldiers posted there. In addition to the Intelligence Bureau, the Research and Analysis Wing and the National Intelligence Agency, the uniformed forces – the Army, the Border Security Force, the Central Reserve Police Force (and of course the Jammu and Kashmir Police) each does its own intelligence gathering. People live in terror of informers, double agents and triple agents who could be anybody from old school friends to family members. Under these circumstances, an attack on the scale of what happened in Pulwama is more than just shocking. As one pithy Twitter commentator put it, (she was referring to the increasingly popular Hindu vigilante practice in North India, of tracking down and lynching Muslims accused of killing cows), how is it that the BJP “can trace 3 kg of beef but cannot trace 350 kg of RDX”?

Who knows?

After the attack, the Governor of Jammu and Kashmir called it the result of “an intelligence failure”. A few intrepid media portals reported the fact that the Jammu and Kashmir Police hadindeed raised an urgent alert about a possible attack. Nobody in the media seems overly worried about why the warning was ignored, and where, in the chain of command, the breach took place.

Tragic as it was, the Pulwama attack came as a perfect political opportunity for Narendra Modi to do what he does best—grandstand. Many of us who had predicted months ago that a BJP that was losing its political footing would call down a fireball from the skies just before elections, watched with horror as our prediction came true. And we watched the Ruling Party adroitly parley the Pulwama tragedy into petty, political advantage.

In the immediate aftermath of the Pulwama Attack, as enraged mobs attacked Kashmiris who worked and studied in mainland India, Modi kept dead quiet and reacted only after the Supreme Court said it was the Government’s duty to protect them. But after the air strikes he was quick to appear on TV to take credit, sounding for all the world as though he had personally flown the planes and dropped the bombs. Immediately India’s roughly four hundred 24/7 news channels, most of them unapologetically partisan, set about amplifying this performance with their own personal “inputs”. Using old videos and fake facts, their screaming anchors masquerading as frontline commandos, orchestrated an orgy of crazed, triumphalist nationalism, in which they claimed the air strikes had destroyed a Jaish-e-Mohammad “terror factory” and killed more than three hundred “terrorists”. The next morning, even the most sober national newspapers followed suit with ridiculous, embarrassing headlines. The Indian Express said: ‘India Strikes Terror, Deep in Pakistan’. Meanwhile Reuters, which sent a journalist to the site in Pakistan where the bombs had actually fallen, reported only damage to trees and rocks and injuries sustained by one villager. Associated Pressreported something similar. The New York Times said “Analysts and diplomats in New Delhi said the targets of the Indian airstrikes were unclear, as any terrorist groups operating along the border would have cleared out in recent days after Prime Minister Narendra Modi of India vowed retaliation over the Kashmir attack.”

The mainstream Indian media did not carry the Reuters report. So, for the bulk of India’s voting people who don’t read the New York Times, their Prime Minister—with his famous 56” chest—had dismantled terrorism forever.

For the moment at least, it looked as though Modi had completely out-maneuvered his political opponents, who were reduced to tweeting in praise of India’s brave pilots. Meanwhile he and his men were out electioneering. Doubters and dissenters were terrorized by Hindutva trolls, charged with being anti-national, or just debilitated by the fear of the on-call lynch mob that seems to lurk at every street corner in North India.

But things can change in a day. The sheen of false victory faded quickly after Pakistan struck back, shot down a fighter plane and captured a pilot of the Indian Air Force—Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman. Once again, the BJP’s see-sawing electoral prospects have begun to look distinctly less rosy.

Leaving aside the business of electoral politics and the question of who will win the next elections, Modi’s actions are unforgiveable. He has jeopardized the lives of more than a billion people and brought the war in Kashmir to the doorsteps of ordinary Indians. The madness on television, fed to people like an IV drip morning, noon and night, asks people to lay aside their woes, their joblessness, their hunger, the closing down of their small businesses, the looming threat of eviction from their homes, their demands that there be an enquiry into the mysterious deaths of judges, as well as into what looks like the biggest, most corrupt Defense deal in the history of India, their worries that if they are Muslim, Dalit or Christian they could be attacked or killed—and instead vote, in the name of national pride, for the very people that have brought about this devastation.

Leaving aside the business of electoral politics and the question of who will win the next elections, Modi’s actions are unforgiveable. He has jeopardized the lives of more than a billion people and brought the war in Kashmir to the doorsteps of ordinary Indians.
This government has wounded India’s soul so very deeply. It will take years for us to heal. For that process to even begin, we must vote to remove these dangerous, spectacle-hungry charlatans from office.

We cannot afford to have a Prime Minister who, on a whim has broken the back of the economy of a country of a billion people by declaring overnight, without consulting anybody that 80 percent of a country’s currency is no longer legal tender. Who in history has ever, done this? We cannot have a Prime Minister of a nuclear power who continues to shoot for a movie about himself in a National Park while a huge crisis befalls the country and then airily declares that he has left the decision of what to do next to the “Sena”— the Army. Which democratically elected leader in history, has ever done this?

Modi has to go. The quarrelsome, divided, unstable Coalition government that might come in his place is not a problem. It is the very essence of democracy. It will be far more intelligent and far less foolhardy.

There remains the matter of the captured Wing Commander. Whatever anybody’s opinion of him, and whatever Pakistan’s role has been in the Kashmir conflict, Imran Khan, the Prime Minister of Pakistan has acted with dignity and rectitude throughout this crisis. The Indian Government was right to demand that Varthaman be accorded all the rights that the Geneva Convention accords a Prisoner of War. It was right to demand that the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) be given access to him while he was in Pakistan’s custody. Today Prime Minister Imran Khan has announced that, as a gesture of good will, the Wing Commander will be released.
Perhaps India can offer the same courtesy to its political prisoners in Kashmir and the rest of the country: protection of their rights under the Geneva Convention, and access to the ICRC?

Kashmir is the real theatre of unspeakable violence and moral corrosion that can spin us into violence and nuclear war at any moment. To prevent that from happening, the conflict in Kashmir has to be addressed and resolved.
The war that we are in the middle of, is not a war between India and Pakistan. It is a war that is being fought in Kashmir which expanded into the beginnings of yet another war between India and Pakistan. Kashmir is the real theatre of unspeakable violence and moral corrosion that can spin us into violence and nuclear war at any moment. To prevent that from happening, the conflict in Kashmir has to be addressed and resolved. That can only be done if Kashmiris are given a chance to freely and fearlessly tell the world what they are fighting for and what they really want.

Dear World, find a way.

https://www.huffingtonpost.in/entry...kashmir-and-india_in_5c78a574e4b0de0c3fbf6b50
 
And time for Pakistan to clean up it’s own internal balochi mess?

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Talk all you want about Pakistan ‘winning the perception war’, but watch their Foreign Minister waffle and weasel out of a reply on arresting Masood Azhar, and sickeningly express apparent concern that he is unwell. How’s that for perceptions?<br><br> <a href="https://t.co/UjVy2oWWxr">pic.twitter.com/UjVy2oWWxr</a></p>— Ananth Krishnan (@ananthkrishnan) <a href="https://twitter.com/ananthkrishnan/status/1101321613885104129?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 1, 2019</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 
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LOL :))) he is Unwell, so we cant take him out of his house because he is Unwell :))).......... Ahhhh India has a lot of issues agreed however I often wonder what Pakistan sees in these absolute useless's and good for nothing ppl like Hafiz Saeed and Masood Ahzar..... I mean will they improve Pakistan's economy ? Can they be presented to the world representing Pakistan on a political meet ? lol There is a reason why Pakistan is currently in economic turmoil, they refuse to move forward....... There is however a glimmer of hope with Imran at helm, hopefully he can make Pakistan a serious player in the international arena...
 
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LOL :))) he is Unwell, so we cant take him out of his house because he is Unwell :))).......... Ahhhh India has a lot of issues agreed however I often wonder what Pakistan sees in these absolute useless's and good for nothing ppl like Hafiz Saeed and Masood Ahzar..... I mean will they improve Pakistan's economy ? Can they be presented to the world representing Pakistan on a political meet ? lol There is a reason why Pakistan is currently in economic turmoil, they refuse to move forward....... There is however a glimmer of hope with Imran at helm, hopefully he can make Pakistan a serious player in the international arena...

Well the minister explained it quite explicitly in that video, they can't just arrest someone without being given some evidence of culpability, there is a legal process which anyone is entitled to. This is the same as the legal process which exonerated the Indian PM, Mr Modi. This is double standards on show, you are saying your own legal system should be used as the determining factor in Modi's guilt or innocence, but Pakistan's legal system should not for people India accuse.

You have to understand this, Pakistan is not a client state there to serve Modi's PR machine. They can't just hand over random people to make India look good whenever they want to cover up their own inadequacies. Pakistan as a nation wants to look forward, not be the whipping boy for Indian politicians.
 
Well the minister explained it quite explicitly in that video, they can't just arrest someone without being given some evidence of culpability, there is a legal process which anyone is entitled to. This is the same as the legal process which exonerated the Indian PM, Mr Modi. This is double standards on show, you are saying your own legal system should be used as the determining factor in Modi's guilt or innocence, but Pakistan's legal system should not for people India accuse.

You have to understand this, Pakistan is not a client state there to serve Modi's PR machine. They can't just hand over random people to make India look good whenever they want to cover up their own inadequacies. Pakistan as a nation wants to look forward, not be the whipping boy for Indian politicians.

This Masood Ahzar was convicted and jailed in India, his fellow buddies from Pakistan hijacked a plane full of passengers for this idiot's release. You are going to sit there and tell me you keep needing evidence ? :)))... Please don't make these sort of childish posts, majority of the world Barring China (Ohhh What a surprise) has recognised him as a terrorist. Now what Pakistanis in Pakistan , sorry this doesn't apply to you, need to have a serious think about their economy and future, do we just rather not be taken seriously in the international arena due to ppl like Ahzar or do we want to be treated with respect and importance ?
 
LOL :))) he is Unwell, so we cant take him out of his house because he is Unwell :))).......... Ahhhh India has a lot of issues agreed however I often wonder what Pakistan sees in these absolute useless's and good for nothing ppl like Hafiz Saeed and Masood Ahzar..... I mean will they improve Pakistan's economy ? Can they be presented to the world representing Pakistan on a political meet ? lol There is a reason why Pakistan is currently in economic turmoil, they refuse to move forward....... There is however a glimmer of hope with Imran at helm, hopefully he can make Pakistan a serious player in the international arena...
Pakistan tumhare abba ka nahi hai, ke whoever says whatever from India and we will do his/her bidding. You give us the evidence and we will work towards a solution. Simple as that.

Elements in Pakistan might be involved in promoting unrest in J&K. They might not be. But until India has rock solid proof, and shares it with the government of Pakistan, they cannot do jack against this. Keep crying. Keep shouting. Keep trying to come into our backyard. All you'll be doing is humiliating yourself.
 
This Masood Ahzar was convicted and jailed in India, his fellow buddies from Pakistan hijacked a plane full of passengers for this idiot's release. You are going to sit there and tell me you keep needing evidence ? :)))... Please don't make these sort of childish posts, majority of the world Barring China (Ohhh What a surprise) has recognised him as a terrorist. Now what Pakistanis in Pakistan , sorry this doesn't apply to you, need to have a serious think about their economy and future, do we just rather not be taken seriously in the international arena due to ppl like Ahzar or do we want to be treated with respect and importance ?

I agree with him. I as a Pakistani too cannot understand why we dont arrest him solely based on the fact that his leadership took responsibility of committing the attacks. We have a confession, lets put him behind bars and then run a trial against him.
 
Keep crying. Keep shouting. Keep trying to come into our backyard. All you'll be doing is humiliating yourself.


I am not crying or shouting, the proof is in the pudding, if you look at Pakistan since creation; You lot have not achieved anything, your current state is terrible, economy is just about not there, on the verge of bankruptcy. But hey what the hell we have our Hafeez Saeed and Masoon Ahzar, so we all good.... I bet Imran would hand over Ahzar and Saeed if he had full control because the man has a vision, he knows these camel jockey elements are doing more harm to the country than good and he wants to build an economically and politically strong Pakistan, too bad he is in the minority......
 
I am not crying or shouting, the proof is in the pudding, if you look at Pakistan since creation; You lot have not achieved anything, your current state is terrible, economy is just about not there, on the verge of bankruptcy. But hey what the hell we have our Hafeez Saeed and Masoon Ahzar, so we all good.... I bet Imran would hand over Ahzar and Saeed if he had full control because the man has a vision, he knows these camel jockey elements are doing more harm to the country than good and he wants to build an economically and politically strong Pakistan, too bad he is in the minority......

Would India also give citizens that Pakistan want? Thanks.
 
So he is IN Pakistan?

So all those posters who were arguing confidently that they have no idea where he is and India shouldn't make claims...

:)))

This is the thing that I was arguing about all these days.

Lies. Lies. And more lies.

India is incompetent. Agreed.

But that doesn't absolve Pak establishment from the things they do.

"If they give us evidence" schtick.

And people wonder why Indians are hopping mad. :))

India is fighting a righteous battle. That's for sure.
 
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I am not crying or shouting, the proof is in the pudding, if you look at Pakistan since creation; You lot have not achieved anything, your current state is terrible, economy is just about not there, on the verge of bankruptcy. But hey what the hell we have our Hafeez Saeed and Masoon Ahzar, so we all good.... I bet Imran would hand over Ahzar and Saeed if he had full control because the man has a vision, he knows these camel jockey elements are doing more harm to the country than good and he wants to build an economically and politically strong Pakistan, too bad he is in the minority......
You have absolutely no idea about our history, so best leave a topic you cannot understand. We are not on the verge of bankruptcy because we didn't do as the likes of India pleased/asked. There are well-documented mistakes made in Pakistan's history by the establishment, that have absolutely nothing to do with either India or Kashmir.

India has ONE job. Provide Imran and his government evidence. Work together behind the scenes. Stop crying in the media. Stop beating your chaatis for issues that are well beyond your understanding. You think doing a 'surgical strike' will stop attacks like Pulwama? If so, you are in for a nasty surprise.
 
You have absolutely no idea about our history, so best leave a topic you cannot understand. We are not on the verge of bankruptcy because we didn't do as the likes of India pleased/asked. There are well-documented mistakes made in Pakistan's history by the establishment, that have absolutely nothing to do with either India or Kashmir.

India has ONE job. Provide Imran and his government evidence. Work together behind the scenes. Stop crying in the media. Stop beating your chaatis for issues that are well beyond your understanding. You think doing a 'surgical strike' will stop attacks like Pulwama? If so, you are in for a nasty surprise.

lol, I pity you, matter of fact I feel sorry for Imran.. Poor guy this is the majority he has to deal with....
 
I agree with him. I as a Pakistani too cannot understand why we dont arrest him solely based on the fact that his leadership took responsibility of committing the attacks. We have a confession, lets put him behind bars and then run a trial against him.

If the leadership of his organisation's claim to have took responsibility for the attack can be verified, and he is still an active member, then yes he should be arrested. This is why I don't understand why India acted unilaterally instead of presenting this evidence to Pakistan first.

Now they have put Pakistan in a position which makes it very difficult to arrest this Azhar as they are now forced to defend their territory from India on a battle front instead.
 
lol, I pity you, matter of fact I feel sorry for Imran.. Poor guy this is the majority he has to deal with....
Right, no retort. Guess it has something to do with the fact that you are well out of your depth here. I won't even dignify you with my pity to be honest.

Instead of worrying about what Imran has to deal with. Worry about the fact that an intelligence failure of an enormous magnitude happened under Modi 'sarkaar' and in one of the most heavily militarized regions in the world. It's embarrassing and humiliating, and no amount of blaming Pakistan is going to absolve Modi 'sarkaar' this time.
 
If the leadership of his organisation's claim to have took responsibility for the attack can be verified, and he is still an active member, then yes he should be arrested. This is why I don't understand why India acted unilaterally instead of presenting this evidence to Pakistan first.

Now they have put Pakistan in a position which makes it very difficult to arrest this Azhar as they are now forced to defend their territory from India on a battle front instead.

Just out of curiosity, why are we so protective of him? I mean his track record isnt too good based on what I have seen. What benefits does he bring to the table?
 
:)))

Dunno whether to laugh or cry at some responses.
How about you laugh or cry on this part?

Worry about the fact that an intelligence failure of an enormous magnitude happened under Modi 'sarkaar' and in one of the most heavily militarized regions in the world. It's embarrassing and humiliating, and no amount of blaming Pakistan is going to absolve Modi 'sarkaar' this time.
 
How about you laugh or cry on this part?

Worry about the fact that an intelligence failure of an enormous magnitude happened under Modi 'sarkaar' and in one of the most heavily militarized regions in the world. It's embarrassing and humiliating, and no amount of blaming Pakistan is going to absolve Modi 'sarkaar' this time.

You know what?

Have you even read my posts in the past?

I personally despise Modi.

And I have talked about our intelligence failure many times.

---

This is the problem with some of you guys.

Very very very poor understanding of nuances.
 
[MENTION=132954]Aman[/MENTION]

We were discussing about this that day bro.

1. Check out #8 post (twitter video of Pak foreign minister on CNN)

2. Google up Masood Azhar's history

3. Check out this thread

You will see why we are behaving the way we do.
 
You know what?

Have you even read my posts in the past?

I personally despise Modi.

And I have talked about our intelligence failure many times.

---

This is the problem with some of you guys.

Very very very poor understanding of nuances.
Funny, all I saw was you bashing Pakistan's involvement right in the aftermatch and trying to convince us that it was all our fault.

I certainly didn't see you talk about the intelligence failure many times.
 
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Yeah that's it, I am out of my depth lol Good lord.....

I understand the point that you’re trying to make and the replies you’re getting in return. To be honest, Im not sure myself why we are so overly protective of Masood Azhar to begin with as his track record is all over the place. Based on my research, I think the army is protective of him because he’s a fighter for Pakistan. Im sure in India, you too have many thugs at underworld lvl or political level who receive proper protection from your government because of their fighting spirit towards their country. For Imran Khan to put him behind bars, he has to answer to his army and prove to them that he really did commit a crime. Unfortunately, thats the only reasoning that I can come up with based on the research I have done.
 
Funny, all I saw was you bashing Pakistan's involvement right in the aftermatch and trying to convince us that it was all our fault.

I certainly didn't see you talk about the intelligence failure many times.

:)))
[MENTION=428]Romali_rotti[/MENTION] - Look at this gem of a post bhai.

Rehne de.

Tujse na ho paayega.

This is just sad. lol.
 
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I understand the point that you’re trying to make and the replies you’re getting in return. To be honest, Im not sure myself why we are so overly protective of Masood Azhar to begin with as his track record is all over the place. Based on my research, I think the army is protective of him because he’s a fighter for Pakistan. Im sure in India, you too have many thugs at underworld lvl or political level who receive proper protection from your government because of their fighting spirit towards their country. For Imran Khan to put him behind bars, he has to answer to his army and prove to them that he really did commit a crime. Unfortunately, thats the only reasoning that I can come up with based on the research I have done.

You raise a fair point bro but you also have to look at our perspective and this is where history comes into play.

India has given so many proofs in the past. All were rejected. Even 2016 proof against Masood was rejected.

Pak will have countless PMs who will keep asking for proof saying they are NEW to the chair.

India can't be saying "this is a new PM so let's give proof, wait for a few months and then see if they accept or reject our proof".

You know what Imran could have done?

Step 1 - Immediately interrogate Masood Azhar. We are talking about a guy that US, India and France wants to declare as a terrorist.

Step 2 - Work with Indian authorities to find a logical conclusion.

Step 3 - If he can't send Masood to India as per rules, atleast try him in a court of international law (I dunno about the procedures here).

The fact is Imran didn't do that.

And I don't blame him at all.

You know why.

It's not in his control. He can't over-rule Pak army. Plus Chinese intervention is also there.

But from an Indian perspective, we can't be held hostages to all these games. That's why India is behaving the way it does.

India's grudge is not against Imran. But Pak as an entity.

That is the crux of the situation.
 
I understand the point that you’re trying to make and the replies you’re getting in return. To be honest, Im not sure myself why we are so overly protective of Masood Azhar to begin with as his track record is all over the place. Based on my research, I think the army is protective of him because he’s a fighter for Pakistan. Im sure in India, you too have many thugs at underworld lvl or political level who receive proper protection from your government because of their fighting spirit towards their country. For Imran Khan to put him behind bars, he has to answer to his army and prove to them that he really did commit a crime. Unfortunately, thats the only reasoning that I can come up with based on the research I have done.

Do you believe I am bashing Pakistan with my posts on this thread ? I certainly don't feel so, my opinion is that Pakistan needs to think bigger, look at the bigger picture, their economy needs to grow and become a successful country... Hanging onto our friends like Hafiz Saeed and Masood Ahzar etc is making Pakistan look bad in the international stage, they bring ZERO good and all BAD. Think about it, if it wasn't for Abhnathan's release India and Pakistan would have gone to war, is a war really worth it over for absolute nodody's like Ahzar ?.... Ahzar is a criminal/terrorist, his friends hijacked a flight full of passengers that had citizens from other countries...
 
You raise a fair point bro but you also have to look at our perspective and this is where history comes into play.

India has given so many proofs in the past. All were rejected. Even 2016 proof against Masood was rejected.

Pak will have countless PMs who will keep asking for proof saying they are NEW to the chair.

India can't be saying "this is a new PM so let's give proof, wait for a few months and then see if they accept or reject our proof".

You know what Imran could have done?

Step 1 - Immediately interrogate Masood Azhar. We are talking about a guy that US, India and France wants to declare as a terrorist.

Step 2 - Work with Indian authorities to find a logical conclusion.

Step 3 - If he can't send Masood to India as per rules, atleast try him in a court of international law (I dunno about the procedures here).

The fact is Imran didn't do that.

And I don't blame him at all.

You know why.

It's not in his control. He can't over-rule Pak army. Plus Chinese intervention is also there.

But from an Indian perspective, we can't be held hostages to all these games. That's why India is behaving the way it does.

India's grudge is not against Imran. But Pak as an entity.

That is the crux of the situation.

I agree with everything you have said to be honest. Couple of friends were discussing the same things you said. Im absolutely clueless to the fact that we haven’t bothered interrogating him regardless of the ifs and buts. I tried finding threads or posts that maybe someone sensible has posted a logical answer to your questions but every thread ends up becoming about Modi one way or another
 
Do you believe I am bashing Pakistan with my posts on this thread ? I certainly don't feel so, my opinion is that Pakistan needs to think bigger, look at the bigger picture, their economy needs to grow and become a successful country... Hanging onto our friends like Hafiz Saeed and Masood Ahzar etc is making Pakistan look bad in the international stage, they bring ZERO good and all BAD. Think about it, if it wasn't for Abhnathan's release India and Pakistan would have gone to war, is a war really worth it over for absolute nodody's like Ahzar ?.... Ahzar is a criminal/terrorist, his friends hijacked a flight full of passengers that had citizens from other countries...

I see your points and apologize on my friends behalf that he called Indians “dumb”. Lets see how it all plays out. Politics is a bad game to be honest and the fact that Masood Azhar has serious backing of our army, Im not sure how Imran Khan will be able to get ahold of him to even interrogate him. However, lets wait and see how it all unfolds.
 
You raise a fair point bro but you also have to look at our perspective and this is where history comes into play.

India has given so many proofs in the past. All were rejected. Even 2016 proof against Masood was rejected.

Pak will have countless PMs who will keep asking for proof saying they are NEW to the chair.

India can't be saying "this is a new PM so let's give proof, wait for a few months and then see if they accept or reject our proof".

You know what Imran could have done?

Step 1 - Immediately interrogate Masood Azhar. We are talking about a guy that US, India and France wants to declare as a terrorist.

Step 2 - Work with Indian authorities to find a logical conclusion.

Step 3 - If he can't send Masood to India as per rules, atleast try him in a court of international law (I dunno about the procedures here).

The fact is Imran didn't do that.

And I don't blame him at all.

You know why.

It's not in his control. He can't over-rule Pak army. Plus Chinese intervention is also there.

But from an Indian perspective, we can't be held hostages to all these games. That's why India is behaving the way it does.

India's grudge is not against Imran. But Pak as an entity.

That is the crux of the situation.

No one's denying the hurt that India felt post-Pulwama as it was a horrific incident, but that hurt doesn't correlate to a free pass in invading our airspace, it just doesn't work that way.

India sent the dossier after this whole fiasco. Couldn't that have been done before? If the sate was planning on attacking and sending the dossier, why not start with the latter? At least then they would've had some leg to stand on defending their decision. You don't just waltz in assuming their won't be consequences. It was a diplomatic failure on India's end.

I do hope Masood Azhar is arrested though, and I'm sure the establishment realizes it's not in their best interest to engage with these extremist elements anymore.
 
No one's denying the hurt that India felt post-Pulwama as it was a horrific incident, but that hurt doesn't correlate to a free pass in invading our airspace, it just doesn't work that way.

India sent the dossier after this whole fiasco. Couldn't that have been done before? If the sate was planning on attacking and sending the dossier, why not start with the latter? At least then they would've had some leg to stand on defending their decision. You don't just waltz in assuming their won't be consequences. It was a diplomatic failure on India's end.

I do hope Masood Azhar is arrested though, and I'm sure the establishment realizes it's not in their best interest to engage with these extremist elements anymore.

Bhai the answer to your question lies right in the post you quoted.

Re-read it again.
 
No one's denying the hurt that India felt post-Pulwama as it was a horrific incident, but that hurt doesn't correlate to a free pass in invading our airspace, it just doesn't work that way.

India sent the dossier after this whole fiasco. Couldn't that have been done before? If the sate was planning on attacking and sending the dossier, why not start with the latter? At least then they would've had some leg to stand on defending their decision. You don't just waltz in assuming their won't be consequences. It was a diplomatic failure on India's end.

I do hope Masood Azhar is arrested though, and I'm sure the establishment realizes it's not in their best interest to engage with these extremist elements anymore.

I agree. I think India definitely made a bad move by sending the dosier AFTER invading Pak airspace. I understand India thinks that in the past, dosiers were ignored, but India should have given this new government a chance to see how they would react. I think this is the move that’s hurting Pakistan the most. I understand emotions were running high and the blame game started towards Pakistan right away after Jaish accepted the responsibility. But India should have at least tried to work with this new government before judging them. Imran Khan is not Nawaz Sharif or Zardari and every Indian knows that too.
 
I see your points and apologize on my friends behalf that he called Indians “dumb”. Lets see how it all plays out. Politics is a bad game to be honest and the fact that Masood Azhar has serious backing of our army, Im not sure how Imran Khan will be able to get ahold of him to even interrogate him. However, lets wait and see how it all unfolds.

Thank you but you don't have to apologize for others.

Indians have spewed worse venom against Pakistanis.

Part and parcel of online world. India Pakistan online warriors can get ugly.

In PP, we Indians may attack the Pak establishment but we don't hate the civilians.

Cheers. :D
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Talk all you want about Pakistan ‘winning the perception war’, but watch their Foreign Minister waffle and weasel out of a reply on arresting Masood Azhar, and sickeningly express apparent concern that he is unwell. How’s that for perceptions?<br><br> <a href="https://t.co/UjVy2oWWxr">pic.twitter.com/UjVy2oWWxr</a></p>— Ananth Krishnan (@ananthkrishnan) <a href="https://twitter.com/ananthkrishnan/status/1101321613885104129?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 1, 2019</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

How can you expect peace, when your army/government keep supporting/protecting these terrorist organizations. And irony that you call modi a war mongerer.
 
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I see your points and apologize on my friends behalf that he called Indians “dumb”. Lets see how it all plays out. Politics is a bad game to be honest and the fact that Masood Azhar has serious backing of our army, Im not sure how Imran Khan will be able to get ahold of him to even interrogate him. However, lets wait and see how it all unfolds.

When I posed a question if Imran Khan has all the power to take decisions in the country, everybody got offended. Imran khan, politicians or general population might want peace but Amry is the ultimate power still in Pakistan and they are supporting terrorist organizations. Denail would not solve anything.
 
No one's denying the hurt that India felt post-Pulwama as it was a horrific incident, but that hurt doesn't correlate to a free pass in invading our airspace, it just doesn't work that way.

India sent the dossier after this whole fiasco. Couldn't that have been done before? If the sate was planning on attacking and sending the dossier, why not start with the latter? At least then they would've had some leg to stand on defending their decision. You don't just waltz in assuming their won't be consequences. It was a diplomatic failure on India's end.

I do hope Masood Azhar is arrested though, and I'm sure the establishment realizes it's not in their best interest to engage with these extremist elements anymore.

Bhai the answer to your question lies right in the post you quoted.

Re-read it again.

Ok maybe I need to add a bit more to it.

First of all, official channels where proof is submitted and pressure is exerted would be done anyway.

Now why did India invade Pak airspace?

Was it to attack Pakistan?

If it were, we would have went and bombed the military locations, full prepared for a war. Early mover advantage is HUGE.

But unlike most comments that you read here, Indian military objective is NOT war.

We don't want war.

But what we wanted to convey was that Pak establishment can't continue to play with non state actors and use nuclear weapons as a deterrent for any offical Indian retaliation.

1. We wanted to convey that we are willing to cross over Pak territory, strike our targets.

2. If Pak chooses to retaliate, we are willing to engage in a conventional battle.

3. We will not initiate a full fledged war with Pak but we are willing to take action inside Pakistan. No more can Pak establishment feel safe with Nukes around.

----

So what step did we actually take?

We went in to bomb a NON civilian, NON military location. Whether we struck our targets or not, is another debate but we deliberate chose that to show what we are willing to do.

And why did we do that?

To create a BETTER DETERRANCE.

We don't want war as much as you guys. But we are not going to held hostage with the "nuke threat". Even a small battle lasting for a few days or a week would hurt Pak economically so no one is going to engage in a prolonged battle. Plus international powers that be, aren't going to let us do whatever we want anyway.

The goal is to turn up the heat for Pak establishment and that's why we chose to invade the airspace.

This is a radical shift in Indian policy.

And going forward, I believe this will be the way forward.

It was the right decision after decades of problems.
 
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When I posed a question if Imran Khan has all the power to take decisions in the country, everybody got offended. Imran khan, politicians or general population might want peace but Amry is the ultimate power still in Pakistan and they are supporting terrorist organizations. Denail would not solve anything.

Army is definitely the ultimate power in Pakistan but I dont think its right to assume our army supports terror organizations. If you’re specifying Masood Azhars organization, you have to understand that his organizations goal is to protect its people from the brutality that happens in Kashmir (which is what the party coveys). Its probably very difficult for the army to go against someone who is fighting for the same things as you are which is to make sure your people in Kashmir are okay.
 
Army is definitely the ultimate power in Pakistan but I dont think its right to assume our army supports terror organizations. If you’re specifying Masood Azhars organization, you have to understand that his organizations goal is to protect its people from the brutality that happens in Kashmir (which is what the party coveys). Its probably very difficult for the army to go against someone who is fighting for the same things as you are which is to make sure your people in Kashmir are okay.

Kashmir is our Problem neither yours nor Masood Azhar's very much similar to your Balochistan issue. And it is not just India, but many others countries in the world have the same opinion on him.
 
Ok maybe I need to add a bit more to it.

First of all, official channels where proof is submitted and pressure is exerted would be done anyway.

Now why did India invade Pak airspace?

Was it to attack Pakistan?

If it were, we would have went and bombed the military locations, full prepared for a war. Early mover advantage is HUGE.

But unlike most comments that you read here, Indian military objective is NOT war.

We don't want war.

But what we wanted to convey was that Pak establishment can't continue to play with non state actors and use nuclear weapons as a deterrent for any offical Indian retaliation.

1. We wanted to convey that we are willing to cross over Pak territory, strike our targets.

2. If Pak chooses to retaliate, we are willing to engage in a conventional battle.

3. We will not initiate a full fledged war with Pak but we are willing to take action inside Pakistan. No more can Pak establishment feel safe with Nukes around.

----

So what step did we actually take?

We went in to bomb a NON civilian, NON military location. Whether we struck our targets or not, is another debate but we deliberate chose that to show what we are willing to do.

And why did we do that?

To create a BETTER DETERRANCE.

We don't want war as much as you guys. But we are not going to held hostage with the "nuke threat". Even a small battle lasting for a few days or a week would hurt Pak economically so no one is going to engage in a prolonged battle. Plus international powers that be, aren't going to let us do whatever we want anyway.

The goal is to turn up the heat for Pak establishment and that's why we chose to invade the airspace.

This is a radical shift in Indian policy.

And going forward, I believe this will be the way forward.

It was the right decision after decades of problems.

See, now thats the problem. First thing you have to understand is that Pakistan and India are not friends for whatever reasons there may be. Now, suppose Im Pakistan, China is my friend and you are my enemy. China gets attacked, Pakistan gets blamed, China attacks in Pakistan where India did. I’d probably be not as mad. But, if my enemy enters my house, even if its for the right reasons, me and the members of my house wont take it too well. Agreed?
 
Just out of curiosity, why are we so protective of him? I mean his track record isnt too good based on what I have seen. What benefits does he bring to the table?

No idea, I am not really well versed on the lesser lights of the subcontinent, I am assuming that the authorities would need some evidence which would link him with this specific incident to arrest him. As I said, with India jumping the gun, now it has probably made it more politically difficult to act as it will be portrayed in India as wilting under pressure through Indian threats. I don't think Imran Khan's administration will appreciate being dragged into Modi's election campaign.
 
No idea, I am not really well versed on the lesser lights of the subcontinent, I am assuming that the authorities would need some evidence which would link him with this specific incident to arrest him. As I said, with India jumping the gun, now it has probably made it more politically difficult to act as it will be portrayed in India as wilting under pressure through Indian threats. I don't think Imran Khan's administration will appreciate being dragged into Modi's election campaign.

Also the fact he is a Pakistani citizen and Pakistan would never ever hand its citizen to India, no matter what India says or cries about.
 
I am not crying or shouting, the proof is in the pudding, if you look at Pakistan since creation; You lot have not achieved anything, your current state is terrible, economy is just about not there, on the verge of bankruptcy. But hey what the hell we have our Hafeez Saeed and Masoon Ahzar, so we all good.... I bet Imran would hand over Ahzar and Saeed if he had full control because the man has a vision, he knows these camel jockey elements are doing more harm to the country than good and he wants to build an economically and politically strong Pakistan, too bad he is in the minority......

And you guys achieved electing a Hindu terrorist as your PM and globalizing Cow **** drinks...correct? That's what you people are.
 
See, now thats the problem. First thing you have to understand is that Pakistan and India are not friends for whatever reasons there may be. Now, suppose Im Pakistan, China is my friend and you are my enemy. China gets attacked, Pakistan gets blamed, China attacks in Pakistan where India did. I’d probably be not as mad. But, if my enemy enters my house, even if its for the right reasons, me and the members of my house wont take it too well. Agreed?

Exactly.

That's why I called it a deterrence.

No one likes when intruders enter their home.

No one.

Even we don't want to do that.
 
Also the fact he is a Pakistani citizen and Pakistan would never ever hand its citizen to India, no matter what India says or cries about.

Forget pakistani citizens, you won't even hand over the indian citizen Dawood Ibrahim, who lives in Karachi with elaborate military protection.
 
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