[VIDEO] Dr. Zakir Naik on shrine (mazaar) worship

[sadida97]

Does anyone disagree with this? if yes than why so?

 

[Mamoon]

Does anyone disagree with this? if yes than why so?

He is 100% right on this occasion. Unfortunately, it’s a South Asian problem.

 

[marlonbrowndo]

He’s absolutely right here. Common problem in Pakistan

 

[DeadBall]

Anyway what he said is totally right. Shrines aren't allowed in Islam. People are praying at/to these shrines and making "mannats" and buying chaadars and what not when successful. It's just the Desi muslim problem who have substituted Mazaars for Mandirs.

 

[Josh]

Dr Naik on laurel or Yanny

https://youtu.be/H1VFCpWVy_c

 

[TM Riddle]

Anyway what he said is totally right. Shrines aren't allowed in Islam. People are praying at/to these shrines and making "mannats" and buying chaadars and what not when successful. It's just the Desi muslim problem who have substituted Mazaars for Mandirs.

Sufism is to be blamed for this.
The earlier Silsilas okayed this practice of ziyarat at saints' mazars which led it to become a full blown worshipping phenomenon.
I think this is more prevalent in India than Pakistan. Quite a few famous Dargahs here. I myself have been to Nizamuddin Aulia's in Old Delhi and Khwaja Moinuddin Chishti's in Ajmer.

 

[Arham_PakFan]

Completely agree with him here.

 

[troodon]

These same fakirs for whom Mazars are built have contributed a lot in the spread of Islam in Indian Subcontinent.

If Someone would have told Indian people 1400 years ago to pray to thin air and a formless god without an idol or Mazar or any ritual, then people would have found this alien culture and could not have related to any of it.

There are some similarities between these Mazars of Fakirs, sufi saints and Hindu traditions. They infact preached the unity of God that has appealed to Hindu masses and enabled them to accept Islam.

But now radicalists like Zakir Naik want to destroy the uniqueness of Indian Islam and change it to Arabic style. This guy is an Arab Agent.

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

Does anyone disagree with this? if yes than why so?

[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] [MENTION=146530]DeadBall[/MENTION] [MENTION=139150]aliasad1998[/MENTION]

This video is wrong on so many levels that I don't even know where to start.
The only thing that I could agree with, is this culture of worshipping the dead.

Before anyone starts to point out the apparent "contradiction" in my 1st two sentences, I would like to clarify difference between "worshipping/ibadat" and "request for intercession/tawassul"

Worshipping/ibadat is when people start to pray to the grave of the pious etc in return for favours like "chadar charhana" etc.

Request for intercession/tawassul is when you ask Allah to fulfill your wish for the sake of the pious person and/or his deeds.

Here is a verse from Surah Maida regarding seeking tawassul:

O you who believe! be careful of (your duty to) Allah and seek means (wasilah) of nearness to Him and strive hard in His way that you may be successful (5:35)

Here are a few ahadith regarding this matter.

'Whenever there was drought, Umar bin Al-Khattab used to ask Allah for rain through Al-‘Abbas ibn ‘Abd al-Muttalib, saying, "O Allah! We used to request our Prophet to ask You for rain, and You would give us. Now we request the uncle of our Prophet to ask You for rain, so give us rain." And they would be given rain.' — Sahih al-Bukhari Book 57 Hadith 59

'Uthman bin Hunaif narrated: A blind man came to the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) and said: "I've been afflicted in my eyesight, so pray to Allah for me". The Prophet (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: "Go perform ablution (Wudu), perform two Rak’at Salat and then say: "O Allah! I ask you and turn to you through my Prophet Muhammad, the Prophet of Mercy. O Muhammad! I seek your intercession with my lord for the return of my eyesight, that it may be fulfilled. O Allah! Grant him intercession for me". The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) then said: "and if there is some other need, do the same" '
— Recorded by Tirmidhi, Abu Dawud, Nasa'i, Tabarani and others, with a sound chain of narrators.


All jurists comprising Imami, Shafi'i, Maliki, Hanafi and Hanbali are unanimous on the permissibility of tawassul whether during the lifetime of Muhammad or after his demise.

If there are some here who don't want to consider the above then I'll give you an analogy:

Suppose you work in a company and you're a clerk there. Now if you want a pay raise or have any complaints/enquiries, you wouldn't knock on the CEO/Chairman's door. You'll tell your manager and then either the manager will fulfill your request (if he's authorised by his seniors) or he'll ask his seniors. To reach the level of your manager you'll have to be qualified and experienced in your trade.

In a similar way the CEO/Chairman of the universe is Allah. His Prophets are his directors. The pious people e.g. "pirs" are his managers and we the normal laymen with limited knowledge and few good deeds are the clerks. Allah differentiates between people only in Taqwa (piety) and it is this taqwa that can make anyone a pir.

The only reason posters here are agreeing with him is because we like to follow KSA as a model of modern Islam (lol). They fail to witness the hypocrisy that, while there are shrines built on the grave of Rasool SAWW, Umar and Abu Bakr, the graves of the Prophet's SAWW own family lay bare in Jannat Ul Baqi mere metres from the green gumbad.

Lastly, Zakir Naik is the last person I'd consult in religious matters. If you do, may Allah guide you soon.

 

[CricketCartoons]

These same fakirs for whom Mazars are built have contributed a lot in the spread of Islam in Indian Subcontinent.

If Someone would have told Indian people 1400 years ago to pray to thin air and a formless god without an idol or Mazar or any ritual, then people would have found this alien culture and could not have related to any of it.

There are some similarities between these Mazars of Fakirs, sufi saints and Hindu traditions. They infact preached the unity of God that has appealed to Hindu masses and enabled them to accept Islam.

But now radicalists like Zakir Naik want to destroy the uniqueness of Indian Islam and change it to Arabic style. This guy is an Arab Agent.

There is no Indian Islam or Arabic Islam. Hindus can keep their version of "Islam of Shrines", but muslims should follow what is true Islam, otherwise might as well become Hindus.

 

[troodon]

There is no Indian Islam or Arabic Islam. Hindus can keep their version of "Islam of Shrines", but muslims should follow what is true Islam, otherwise might as well become Hindus.

You mean the radical wahabi nonsense? I grew up in an area with a lot of these Dargahs and everyone from all walks of life would pay respect to the saints. We like this version of Islam. Not the one which preaches my way or the high way.

 

[CricketCartoons]

You mean the radical wahabi nonsense? I grew up in an area with a lot of these Dargahs and everyone from all walks of life would pay respect to the saints. We like this version of Islam. Not the one which preaches my way or the high way.

So now we will have hindus (atheist or otherwise) to tell us what versions Islam has, and which versions have their approval. very cute. Why don't you just practice your faith instead of telling people what form of faith they must follow.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

You mean the radical wahabi nonsense? I grew up in an area with a lot of these Dargahs and everyone from all walks of life would pay respect to the saints. We like this version of Islam. Not the one which preaches my way or the high way.

You can't like it that much since you didn't become a Muslim.

 

[troodon]

So now we will have hindus (atheist or otherwise) to tell us what versions Islam has, and which versions have their approval. very cute. Why don't you just practice your faith instead of telling people what form of faith they must follow.

I am nobody to tell what others should follow, but what worked in India should not be disturbed. We are a pluralistic society and the strict form of Islam further alienates Muslims from main stream.

 

[Varun]

You can't like it that much since you didn't become a Muslim.

Newsflash: You can like Islam or certain aspects of it without becoming a Muslim.

 

[CricketCartoons]

I am nobody to tell what others should follow, but what worked in India should not be disturbed. We are a pluralistic society and the strict form of Islam further alienates Muslims from main stream.

Well said. To maintain the tolerant and plurastic society which we are world famous for, muslims must start eating prasad to reciprocate the love hindus show towards the Islam of the shrine.

 

[gkb101277867]

Zakir Naik is completely correct here. In South Asia Islam has been distorted so much regards to matters such as this. In Pakistan especially, you need to be careful because they would love to label someone as a gustaak e rasool for things such as this.

I blame this on stubborness and ignorance. One of the main flaws in South Asian countries is that people believe whatever their parents/grandparents did cannot possibly be wrong. This is of course a very wrong view to have and is exactly why it's so difficult to change certain practices in these countries. People fail to realise that as time goes on that education increases, knowledge increases and we have educational resources such as the internet available to us at our fingertips. But apparently to them if we don't follow exactly what our older generations done then it's disrespectful to them. This is the crux of the issue

 

[Justcrazy]

There is no Indian Islam or Arabic Islam. Hindus can keep their version of "Islam of Shrines", but muslims should follow what is true Islam, otherwise might as well become Hindus.

In Indian subcontinent Cultural Islam is followed . It has been ingrained in the society.

It will take education and good work to change. Its slowly been done , but it will take more time.

 

[akki]

Zakir Naik is completely correct here. In South Asia Islam has been distorted so much regards to matters such as this. In Pakistan especially, you need to be careful because they would love to label someone as a gustaak e rasool for things such as this.

I blame this on stubborness and ignorance. One of the main flaws in South Asian countries is that people believe whatever their parents/grandparents did cannot possibly be wrong. This is of course a very wrong view to have and is exactly why it's so difficult to change certain practices in these countries. People fail to realise that as time goes on that education increases, knowledge increases and we have educational resources such as the internet available to us at our fingertips. But apparently to them if we don't follow exactly what our older generations done then it's disrespectful to them. This is the crux of the issue

Loll....words wont be enough to describe what you actually meant.....��

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

Zakir Naik is completely correct here. In South Asia Islam has been distorted so much regards to matters such as this. In Pakistan especially, you need to be careful because they would love to label someone as a gustaak e rasool for things such as this.

I blame this on stubborness and ignorance. One of the main flaws in South Asian countries is that people believe whatever their parents/grandparents did cannot possibly be wrong. This is of course a very wrong view to have and is exactly why it's so difficult to change certain practices in these countries. People fail to realise that as time goes on that education increases, knowledge increases and we have educational resources such as the internet available to us at our fingertips. But apparently to them if we don't follow exactly what our older generations done then it's disrespectful to them. This is the crux of the issue

Bhai, open your eyes. Stop relying on so-called scholars. Read Quran and hadith yourself.

Use the internet which is available on your "fingertips" and research Tawassul/Wasilah.

Quran was present before the internet.

Read 5:35, 5:3, 12:97, 12:98 in Quran and kindly explain what is the wasilah mentioned in them.

Quran to parrha nahi aur "educational resources" parrhenge.

 

[KingKhanWC]

He is a literalist and his opinions differ to many other scholars.

In the video he mentions you dont follow Islam by seeing what other Muslims do but by the scriptures. He then mentions the Prophet(pbuh). lol You follow Islam the way the Prophet(pbuh) practiced it and scriptures are there to confirm how he did , apart from the commandants of God etc.

I really wouldn't listen to him in regards to most aspects of Islam.

 

[gkb101277867]

Bhai, open your eyes. Stop relying on so-called scholars. Read Quran and hadith yourself.

Use the internet which is available on your "fingertips" and research Tawassul/Wasilah.

Quran was present before the internet.

Read 5:35, 5:3, 12:97, 12:98 in Quran and kindly explain what is the wasilah mentioned in them.

Quran to parrha nahi aur "educational resources" parrhenge.

You don't need to worry about my education alhumdulillah. The word wasilah has been interpreted wrongly by many according to my understanding. It simply means getting closer to Allah by performing acts that please him.

Perhaps you should read the part in the hadith that says " a shrine should not be built on a grave" and that if it is then it should be razed to the ground?

 

[DeadBall]

Zakir Naik is completely correct here. In South Asia Islam has been distorted so much regards to matters such as this. In Pakistan especially, you need to be careful because they would love to label someone as a gustaak e rasool for things such as this.

I blame this on stubborness and ignorance. One of the main flaws in South Asian countries is that people believe whatever their parents/grandparents did cannot possibly be wrong. This is of course a very wrong view to have and is exactly why it's so difficult to change certain practices in these countries. People fail to realise that as time goes on that education increases, knowledge increases and we have educational resources such as the internet available to us at our fingertips. But apparently to them if we don't follow exactly what our older generations done then it's disrespectful to them. This is the crux of the issue

Exactly. We tend to elevate our fathers and forefathers to the status of deities and any comment against them (no matter how illogical theirs stance might be) tends to be seen as a personal insult. It's like 5 year olds covering their ears and saying lalallala when told that Santa doesn't exist.

It's just brainwashing/conditioning at a very early age and then people either not having adequate knowledge or having to big of an ego when they are confronted with facts and proof that contradict everything they have ever believed in.

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

You don't need to worry about my education alhumdulillah. The word wasilah has been interpreted wrongly by many according to my understanding. It simply means getting closer to Allah by performing acts that please him.

Perhaps you should read the part in the hadith that says " a shrine should not be built on a grave" and that if it is then it should be razed to the ground?

I'm not the one who believes in Sihah-e-Sitta books as 100% authentic. I merely follow the Quran and mention those ahadith which derive their message/understanding from the Quran. I don't believe in ahadith which are facts unto themselves.

Perhaps you should read 5:35 again. Allah doesn't repeat the same thing in a single verse. It very clearly says to "seek a wasilah(means) of nearness to Him".

Good deeds aren't near to Allah but Prophets and people with superior taqwa (piety) surely are nearer to Allah then ourselves.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Another perspective on the issue.

 

[RickyG]

Zakir Naik is a tool.

 

[DeadBall]

You don't need to worry about my education alhumdulillah. The word wasilah has been interpreted wrongly by many according to my understanding. It simply means getting closer to Allah by performing acts that please him.

Perhaps you should read the part in the hadith that says " a shrine should not be built on a grave" and that if it is then it should be razed to the ground?

Wasilah basically translates to means to an end/objective/goal (not to be mistaken with Wasta). As you mentioned even the Prophet Muhammad said if a shrine is built on a grave it should be razed to the ground because the core tenet of Islam being a polytheist religion does not allow idolatry or any thing which could lead to idolatry.

This is also why painting, sculpting figures of humans, animals etc is discouraged and even prohibited by some in Islam as it may steer people towards Shirk and idol worship, especially the less knowledgeable (which are the masses).

 

[KingKhanWC]

Zakir Naik is a tool.

I wouldn't go that far but his version of Islam has only been around 200 years.

I would advise people to listen to a variety of opinions , research the history of Islam and read scriptures themselves. Most importantly don't take what you read online by anonymous people as being correct.

 

[DeadBall]

I'm not the one who believes in Sihah-e-Sitta books as 100% authentic. I merely follow the Quran and mention those ahadith which derive their message/understanding from the Quran. I don't believe in ahadith which are facts unto themselves.

Perhaps you should read 5:35 again. Allah doesn't repeat the same thing in a single verse. It very clearly says to "seek a wasilah(means) of nearness to Him".

What about Surah Al Isra 17:57.

Good deeds aren't near to Allah but Prophets and people with superior taqwa (piety) surely are nearer to Allah then ourselves.

Who are we to decide who has superior taqwa? At least the Prophets and Sahaba were Radhi Allahu Alaihum, were already accepted by Allah and were already confirmed Jannah and were mentioned in the Quran and Ahadeeth.

What if tomorrow I come up with another extremely religious person and say that he was "closer" to God? The whole point of this shrine and mazaar thing is it leads down a slippery slope that could (and usually) ends in Shirk.

 

[RickyG]

I wouldn't go that far but his version of Islam has only been around 200 years.

I would advise people to listen to a variety of opinions , research the history of Islam and read scriptures themselves. Most importantly don't take what you read online by anonymous people as being correct.

Huge point that people (South Asians) seem to miss when they let their inferiority complex kick in and want to do everything the Saudi way. Those wonderful Arabs.

On the topic of shrines, there are so many assumptions that are made. To have high regard for someone that has contributed to the religion does not equate to elevating him to the status of God or worshiping them. That is purely an assumption made by the literalists.

If Islam was meant to be practiced in a very literal sense then:
1. There wouldn't be so many variations of it
2. It would defeat the purpose of intentions entirely

 

[gkb101277867]

I'm not the one who believes in Sihah-e-Sitta books as 100% authentic. I merely follow the Quran and mention those ahadith which derive their message/understanding from the Quran. I don't believe in ahadith which are facts unto themselves.

Perhaps you should read 5:35 again. Allah doesn't repeat the same thing in a single verse. It very clearly says to "seek a wasilah(means) of nearness to Him".

Good deeds aren't near to Allah but Prophets and people with superior taqwa (piety) surely are nearer to Allah then ourselves.

First of all, we don't decide who has taqwa. We don't know the deeds of the people who are burried in these places so we can't elevate such people and call them superior. The only people we can hold in superior regard are the ones who Allah has mentioned in the quran i.e. prophets.

I don't even know where to begin with the second point. You have basically said that you don't believe in the hadith about not building shrines on graves even though it is from bukhari and is considered one of the strongest and most authentic hadiths.

I would strongly urge you to educate yourself and look at islam without bias. It's ok to realise that your elders may have been wrong. They are human beings and so are not perfect. We are told in Islam to carry on gaining knowledge....rabbi zidni ilmaa....knowledge is not a destination, instead it is a journey that develops and changes over time depending upon resources etc

 

[LongHorn]

There is a common misconception among Desi Muslims that shrines are a desi thing, and that Arabs dont have them because they understand the Quran.
Egypt, Iraq and Morocco all have different shrines, and stuff goes on in them that are just as wrong as some things in Desi shrines.

 

[LongHorn]

In Indian subcontinent Cultural Islam is followed . It has been ingrained in the society.

It will take education and good work to change. Its slowly been done , but it will take more time.

Same as in most Arab countries as well as Indonesia and Turkey....

Desi Muslims do not have a monopoly on "cultural Islam"

 

[RickyG]

There is a common misconception among Desi Muslims that shrines are a desi thing, and that Arabs dont have them because they understand the Quran.
Egypt, Iraq and Morocco all have different shrines, and stuff goes on in them that are just as wrong as some things in Desi shrines.

Brother Longhorn, in the holy month of Ramadan I would like to remind you that desis obsessively self-hate. They like to salivate over the culture of their fellow Arab Muslim brothers.

 

[PakLFC]

I am ever so uncomfortable worshipping dead people who couldn't even save themselves from death. Now someone will start calling me a "wahabi" or something like that. It is "ghustaki" and blasphemy for sure absolutely no doubt about it. Have seen people crying and throwing money on shrines hoping for miracles. The worshipped ones didn't ever ask for people to behave in such ways after they had departed so are free from all blame. By all means visit there graves like we do of deceased loved ones leaving out all the razzmatazz like dancing and singing.

 

[hussain.r97]

I totally disagree with everything he says apart from the part where he says that "you can't worship dead people/graves".

I agree with [MENTION=139075]Hadi Rizvi[/MENTION], he has pretty much stated everything. I would like to add though, I see nothing wrong with visiting graves of holy people, paying your respects, and asking them for intercession. You are merely asking them to pray for you. These "dead" people are not really "dead" but have simply just left our world as stated in Quran 2:154 ("And do not say that whoso is killed in the path of Allah his dead. No! Indeed they are alive but you do not know how".) If you can ask people to pray for you in this world I see nothing wrong with asking them to pray for you when they have left this world.

The Quran itself does not prohibit intercession, and inventing new laws that have no root in the Quran is not allowed. Those of you quoting Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim, I personally do not believe these books are 100% authentic. They were compiled at a time where there were no readily available compilations of Hadith, and as a result became the primary source of Hadith for everyone. These Hadith books are riddled with internal inconsistencies, as well as inconsistencies between the books and the Quran itself. Any Hadith quoted from these books must be checked for it's chain of narrators, consistency with the Quran, and it's logic, just like any other Hadith.

Also, those of you saying shrines are something unique to the subcontinent are absolutely incorrect. These shrines are found all over the Muslim world except in Saudi Arabia, where Wahabbism is prevalent. These Saudis were even thinking of demolishing Prophet Muhammad's (pbuh) shrine.

 

[asad1996]

there's a difference, shrines are not made for grave worshippinng, they are there are a symbol for the saints who had a huge role in the spreading of Islam and peace, please do some research on saints like Baba Fareed and Nizamuddin Auliya, if you have time, i would reccommend you all to read about some of the waqiyas of nizmauddin auliya and amir khusro and some of their encounters with the king and pandit Gopal. Grave worshipping is done by those who are not rightly guided and is totally wrong. As far as shrines go, none of this was ever a topic of discussion before this Wahabi false massages, Jannat al Baqi had many shrines up until 1925 before Ibn Saud demolished them. So before you disregard the contributions of some of these great people due to the actions of a few, please do some research and not make stupid comments without any knowledge of the topic.

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

I totally disagree with everything he says apart from the part where he says that "you can't worship dead people/graves".

I agree with [MENTION=139075]Hadi Rizvi[/MENTION], he has pretty much stated everything. I would like to add though, I see nothing wrong with visiting graves of holy people, paying your respects, and asking them for intercession. You are merely asking them to pray for you. These "dead" people are not really "dead" but have simply just left our world as stated in Quran 2:154 ("And do not say that whoso is killed in the path of Allah his dead. No! Indeed they are alive but you do not know how".) If you can ask people to pray for you in this world I see nothing wrong with asking them to pray for you when they have left this world.

The Quran itself does not prohibit intercession, and inventing new laws that have no root in the Quran is not allowed. Those of you quoting Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim, I personally do not believe these books are 100% authentic. They were compiled at a time where there were no readily available compilations of Hadith, and as a result became the primary source of Hadith for everyone. These Hadith books are riddled with internal inconsistencies, as well as inconsistencies between the books and the Quran itself. Any Hadith quoted from these books must be checked for it's chain of narrators, consistency with the Quran, and it's logic, just like any other Hadith.

Also, those of you saying shrines are something unique to the subcontinent are absolutely incorrect. These shrines are found all over the Muslim world except in Saudi Arabia, where Wahabbism is prevalent. These Saudis were even thinking of demolishing Prophet Muhammad's (pbuh) shrine.

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

What about Surah Al Isra 17:57.

Good deeds aren't near to Allah but Prophets and people with superior taqwa (piety) surely are nearer to Allah then ourselves.

Who are we to decide who has superior taqwa? At least the Prophets and Sahaba were Radhi Allahu Alaihum, were already accepted by Allah and were already confirmed Jannah and were mentioned in the Quran and Ahadeeth.

What if tomorrow I come up with another extremely religious person and say that he was "closer" to God? The whole point of this shrine and mazaar thing is it leads down a slippery slope that could (and usually) ends in Shirk.

LOL, height of ignorance.

It's getting silly now really.

Well, tell everyone that you have better taqwa than Khwaja Moeenudin Chishti, Abdullah Shah Ghazi, Lal Shahbaz Qalandar, Fareed Shakarganj and so on.

Can you claim it?

Surah Isra verse 57 reitrates MY point bro:

Those whom they invoke seek means of access to their Lord, [striving as to] which of them would be nearest, and they hope for His mercy and fear His punishment. Indeed, the punishment of your Lord is ever feared.

It is not my issue if the above verse is beyond your grammatical interpretation.

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

First of all, we don't decide who has taqwa. We don't know the deeds of the people who are burried in these places so we can't elevate such people and call them superior. The only people we can hold in superior regard are the ones who Allah has mentioned in the quran i.e. prophets.

I don't even know where to begin with the second point. You have basically said that you don't believe in the hadith about not building shrines on graves even though it is from bukhari and is considered one of the strongest and most authentic hadiths.

I would strongly urge you to educate yourself and look at islam without bias. It's ok to realise that your elders may have been wrong. They are human beings and so are not perfect. We are told in Islam to carry on gaining knowledge....rabbi zidni ilmaa....knowledge is not a destination, instead it is a journey that develops and changes over time depending upon resources etc

100% disagree.

1st of all. Yes, we don't decide taqwa but we also can't turn a blind eye towards historical facts and events.
Itne bholay na bano k "we don't know the deeds of the dead". You'll know their deeds if you strive to.
No one knows anyone's deeds from birth. We all have to read history books and then come to a conclusion regarding anyone's deeds. I didn't meet Yazid personally but I'll still curse him till my last breath because historians and history exposed his real face. Otherwise there are ahadith in Sihah e Sitta books which seemingly try to elevate Yazid's status. Should I then consider such ahadith true as well, just because they were present in Sihah e Sitta? I will never, because these books can never and will never be 100% authentic which is exactly why I made the 2nd point. However, if you consider Yazid respectable in anyway, then I'll leave this argument immediately.

Secondly, you say that how can I reject bukhari and then you urge me to realise my elders were wrong.
Bro, don't you see. It is you who is adamant on the authenticity of the Sihah Sitta especially Bukhari because it is what YOUR ELDERS taught you. My elders never taught me about them because we, as Shias, have different hadith books and we don't consider Bukhari 100% authentic. Yet I'm here trying to convince Sunnis about Tawassul from Quran and THEIR hadith books.

Why?..........because rabbi zidni ilma...........

 

[LongHorn]

Brother Longhorn, in the holy month of Ramadan I would like to remind you that desis obsessively self-hate. They like to salivate over the culture of their fellow Arab Muslim brothers.

Unfortunately true.

When there used to be bombings in the subcontinent some years back, I lost count of the number of times Desis around me would say
"such attacks happen because we do not understand what the Quran says in Arabic, if we could read the Quran with meaning, no one would be able to mislead such youth"

What they would omit is that plenty of much more violence has happened in countries like Iraq, Libya, Syria, where all parties are native Arabic speakers, who read the Quran and still find it ok to kill another innocent person.

 

[marlonbrowndo]

Unfortunately true.

When there used to be bombings in the subcontinent some years back, I lost count of the number of times Desis around me would say
"such attacks happen because we do not understand what the Quran says in Arabic, if we could read the Quran with meaning, no one would be able to mislead such youth"

What they would omit is that plenty of much more violence has happened in countries like Iraq, Libya, Syria, where all parties are native Arabic speakers, who read the Quran and still find it ok to kill another innocent person.

The Arabs have a lot of problems but praying to shrines is more common in the subcontinent. Criticising muslims in this region of the world doesn’t mean you follow Arabs. The 2 are mutually exclusive.

 

[kaayal]

I guess this mazaar thing is more common among Shia’s than Sunnis. There is no point in arguing here.

 

[CricketCartoons]

I guess this mazaar thing is more common among Shia’s than Sunnis. There is no point in arguing here.

I would say it is more in common with hindus than muslims. It is phase one of a hindu's journey towards Islam.

 

[hussain.r97]

I guess this mazaar thing is more common among Shia’s than Sunnis. There is no point in arguing here.

Incorrect. It is still common among Sunnis, though it is reducing due to Wahhabi influence. Intercession and building shrines has never been labelled as haram in mainstream Islam until the last century (basically when Wahabbi influence started creeping in). None of the mainstream Islamic schools of thought, including Hanafi, Hanbali, Shafi, Maliki, or Jafari say that intercession is haram, nor do they say that building shrines is haram.

 

[TM Riddle]

I would say it is more in common with hindus than muslims. It is phase one of a hindu's journey towards Islam.

Hindus would visit anyplace even remotely related to God if it gives them inner satisfaction.
My favorite spot to relax in Delhi is Gurudwara Bangla Sahib. Such a serene and peaceful surroundings. An atmosphere of tranquility all around.
Feels like heaven.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Hindus would visit anyplace even remotely related to God if it gives them inner satisfaction.
My favorite spot to relax in Delhi is Gurudwara Bangla Sahib. Such a serene and peaceful surroundings. An atmosphere of tranquility all around.
Feels like heaven.

Must be because it was built by your forefathers, Maharaja Jai Singh, who looks remarkably like you.

 

[TM Riddle]

Must be because it was built by your forefathers, Maharaja Jai Singh, who looks remarkably like you.

Didn't know about Mirza Raja Jai Singh connection before I visited the place.
Anyway I'm not directly descended since our line got separated around a century ago over some petty family feud common among Rajputs of middle ages.
My grandmother otoh is directly related though.

Still a remarkable site to visit though. You should give it a try.
Much better than those overcrowded temples.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Brother Longhorn, in the holy month of Ramadan I would like to remind you that desis obsessively self-hate. They like to salivate over the culture of their fellow Arab Muslim brothers.

Brother RickyG,

In the holy month of Ramadan I would invite you and Longhorn to put aside self hatred and hatred of others whether Arab or Iranian, and come let us celebrate this month together as Muslims instead of making spiteful comments on others salivating while piously excluding ourselves from these same criticisms. Let us look within to tend to our own faults rather than point fingers at others in this blessed month.

 

[Mamoon]

[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] [MENTION=146530]DeadBall[/MENTION] [MENTION=139150]aliasad1998[/MENTION]

This video is wrong on so many levels that I don't even know where to start.
The only thing that I could agree with, is this culture of worshipping the dead.

Before anyone starts to point out the apparent "contradiction" in my 1st two sentences, I would like to clarify difference between "worshipping/ibadat" and "request for intercession/tawassul"

Worshipping/ibadat is when people start to pray to the grave of the pious etc in return for favours like "chadar charhana" etc.

Request for intercession/tawassul is when you ask Allah to fulfill your wish for the sake of the pious person and/or his deeds.

Here is a verse from Surah Maida regarding seeking tawassul:

O you who believe! be careful of (your duty to) Allah and seek means (wasilah) of nearness to Him and strive hard in His way that you may be successful (5:35)

Here are a few ahadith regarding this matter.

'Whenever there was drought, Umar bin Al-Khattab used to ask Allah for rain through Al-‘Abbas ibn ‘Abd al-Muttalib, saying, "O Allah! We used to request our Prophet to ask You for rain, and You would give us. Now we request the uncle of our Prophet to ask You for rain, so give us rain." And they would be given rain.' — Sahih al-Bukhari Book 57 Hadith 59

'Uthman bin Hunaif narrated: A blind man came to the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) and said: "I've been afflicted in my eyesight, so pray to Allah for me". The Prophet (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: "Go perform ablution (Wudu), perform two Rak’at Salat and then say: "O Allah! I ask you and turn to you through my Prophet Muhammad, the Prophet of Mercy. O Muhammad! I seek your intercession with my lord for the return of my eyesight, that it may be fulfilled. O Allah! Grant him intercession for me". The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) then said: "and if there is some other need, do the same" '
— Recorded by Tirmidhi, Abu Dawud, Nasa'i, Tabarani and others, with a sound chain of narrators.


All jurists comprising Imami, Shafi'i, Maliki, Hanafi and Hanbali are unanimous on the permissibility of tawassul whether during the lifetime of Muhammad or after his demise.

If there are some here who don't want to consider the above then I'll give you an analogy:

Suppose you work in a company and you're a clerk there. Now if you want a pay raise or have any complaints/enquiries, you wouldn't knock on the CEO/Chairman's door. You'll tell your manager and then either the manager will fulfill your request (if he's authorised by his seniors) or he'll ask his seniors. To reach the level of your manager you'll have to be qualified and experienced in your trade.

In a similar way the CEO/Chairman of the universe is Allah. His Prophets are his directors. The pious people e.g. "pirs" are his managers and we the normal laymen with limited knowledge and few good deeds are the clerks. Allah differentiates between people only in Taqwa (piety) and it is this taqwa that can make anyone a pir.

The only reason posters here are agreeing with him is because we like to follow KSA as a model of modern Islam (lol). They fail to witness the hypocrisy that, while there are shrines built on the grave of Rasool SAWW, Umar and Abu Bakr, the graves of the Prophet's SAWW own family lay bare in Jannat Ul Baqi mere metres from the green gumbad.

Lastly, Zakir Naik is the last person I'd consult in religious matters. If you do, may Allah guide you soon.

There is a difference between asking the Prophet PBUH for help when he was alive, and going to his grave and going to shrines to seek help.

The Prophet PBUH was a human being, and like every human being in the world, he passed away.

Same goes for every other Saint and Peer who did great work for Islam during their lifetime, but are not alive anymore.

You are right that we are laymen and clerks, but laymen and clerks do not go to managers and directors who are not alive anymore.

The Prophet PBUH showed us the way, but he departed this world because every human being has to taste death. He cannot help anyone anymore.

Similarly, the saints devoted their lives for the cause of Islam, but they are also dead now. You cannot go to their graves now and pray and seek help, because they cannot help you.

By all means you can go to their graves and pay respect, just like we go to the graves of our parents and loved ones, but only Allah SWT can help you, not dead people.

The notion that a shaheed never dies is not to be taken literally; it is just a rhetoric to pay tribute to the people who laid their lives in the path of Allah SWT.

A shaheed is as dead as any other human being. Open the grave of any shaheed or saint after 50 years and you will find nothing but bones, because the body will decay unless you preserve it.

The belief that the body of a shaheed and a man of God does not decay is the misconception and misinterpretation of people who do not understand.

The proof lies in the pudding - open the graves of shaheeds and saints, and if they are still in their original condition and “smell of roses”, the whole world will embrace Islam.

This has nothing to do with following KSA version of Islam, or being impressed with good of nothing Arabs who got lucky that the westerners drilled oil for them; the KSA version of Islam is backward, inflexible and harsh. However, there are a few things that they do better than us and this is one of them.

Going to shrines and asking dead people for help is subcontinent jahaalat, heavily influenced by Hindu culture and beliefs.

Furthermore, it contradicts the very basic belief of Islam that the concept of divinity is starts and ends with Allah. If we believe that the Prophets, shaheeds, saints and other men of God are still alive and can help us, we are simply going against the teachings of Islam.

The prophets were normal human beings who were given a task and they fulfilled that task. Now they are dead and they cannot help you anymore, and neither will they come back from the dead.

 

[Mamoon]

These same fakirs for whom Mazars are built have contributed a lot in the spread of Islam in Indian Subcontinent.

If Someone would have told Indian people 1400 years ago to pray to thin air and a formless god without an idol or Mazar or any ritual, then people would have found this alien culture and could not have related to any of it.

There are some similarities between these Mazars of Fakirs, sufi saints and Hindu traditions. They infact preached the unity of God that has appealed to Hindu masses and enabled them to accept Islam.

But now radicalists like Zakir Naik want to destroy the uniqueness of Indian Islam and change it to Arabic style. This guy is an Arab Agent.

You misunderstand. There is absolutely nothing wrong in going to shrines and graves and paying your respect.

However, these dead men cannot help you, and going to shrines to seek their help is the height of ignorance which is very prevalent in South Asia.

The reason why demolishing shrines is a good idea is because most people cannot distinguish between going to shrines to pay respect and going to shrines to pray. Moreover, you are allowed to raze down graves after a period of time because of saving space.

I am pretty sure if the Prophet PBUH we’re alive, he would not appreciate his body enclosed in a solid gold enclosure, with people coming in hoards to ask him for his help.

 

[marlonbrowndo]

There is a difference between asking the Prophet PBUH for help when he was alive, and going to his grave and going to shrines to seek help.

The Prophet PBUH was a human being, and like every human being in the world, he passed away.

Same goes for every other Saint and Peer who did great work for Islam during their lifetime, but are not alive anymore.

You are right that we are laymen and clerks, but laymen and clerks do not go to managers and directors who are not alive anymore.

The Prophet PBUH showed us the way, but he departed this world because every human being has to taste death. He cannot help anyone anymore.

Similarly, the saints devoted their lives for the cause of Islam, but they are also dead now. You cannot go to their graves now and pray and seek help, because they cannot help you.

By all means you can go to their graves and pay respect, just like we go to the graves of our parents and loved ones, but only Allah SWT can help you, not dead people.

The notion that a shaheed never dies is not to be taken literally; it is just a rhetoric to pay tribute to the people who laid their lives in the path of Allah SWT.

A shaheed is as dead as any other human being. Open the grave of any shaheed or saint after 50 years and you will find nothing but bones, because the body will decay unless you preserve it.

The belief that the body of a shaheed and a man of God does not decay is the misconception and misinterpretation of people who do not understand.

The proof lies in the pudding - open the graves of shaheeds and saints, and if they are still in their original condition and “smell of roses”, the whole world will embrace Islam.

This has nothing to do with following KSA version of Islam, or being impressed with good of nothing Arabs who got lucky that the westerners drilled oil for them; the KSA version of Islam is backward, inflexible and harsh. However, there are a few things that they do better than us and this is one of them.

Going to shrines and asking dead people for help is subcontinent jahaalat, heavily influenced by Hindu culture and beliefs.

Furthermore, it contradicts the very basic belief of Islam that the concept of divinity is starts and ends with Allah. If we believe that the Prophets, shaheeds, saints and other men of God are still alive and can help us, we are simply going against the teachings of Islam.

The prophets were normal human beings who were given a task and they fulfilled that task. Now they are dead and they cannot help you anymore, and neither will they come back from the dead.

Brilliant post

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

There is a difference between asking the Prophet PBUH for help when he was alive, and going to his grave and going to shrines to seek help.

The Prophet PBUH was a human being, and like every human being in the world, he passed away.

Same goes for every other Saint and Peer who did great work for Islam during their lifetime, but are not alive anymore.

You are right that we are laymen and clerks, but laymen and clerks do not go to managers and directors who are not alive anymore.

The Prophet PBUH showed us the way, but he departed this world because every human being has to taste death. He cannot help anyone anymore.

Similarly, the saints devoted their lives for the cause of Islam, but they are also dead now. You cannot go to their graves now and pray and seek help, because they cannot help you.

By all means you can go to their graves and pay respect, just like we go to the graves of our parents and loved ones, but only Allah SWT can help you, not dead people.

The notion that a shaheed never dies is not to be taken literally; it is just a rhetoric to pay tribute to the people who laid their lives in the path of Allah SWT.

A shaheed is as dead as any other human being. Open the grave of any shaheed or saint after 50 years and you will find nothing but bones, because the body will decay unless you preserve it.

The belief that the body of a shaheed and a man of God does not decay is the misconception and misinterpretation of people who do not understand.

The proof lies in the pudding - open the graves of shaheeds and saints, and if they are still in their original condition and “smell of roses”, the whole world will embrace Islam.

This has nothing to do with following KSA version of Islam, or being impressed with good of nothing Arabs who got lucky that the westerners drilled oil for them; the KSA version of Islam is backward, inflexible and harsh. However, there are a few things that they do better than us and this is one of them.

Going to shrines and asking dead people for help is subcontinent jahaalat, heavily influenced by Hindu culture and beliefs.

Furthermore, it contradicts the very basic belief of Islam that the concept of divinity is starts and ends with Allah. If we believe that the Prophets, shaheeds, saints and other men of God are still alive and can help us, we are simply going against the teachings of Islam.

The prophets were normal human beings who were given a task and they fulfilled that task. Now they are dead and they cannot help you anymore, and neither will they come back from the dead.

Well well well.

What else should I have expected from a guy who thinks that the signs of the End of Time is just an analogy. Who thinks Meraj was a mystical story. Who thinks miracles don't happen. Who thinks that Hazrat Isa AS is dead. Who thinks all Prophets are dead.

I expected something more logical and in line with Quran and Hadith.
If you still think Rasool SAWW was "JUST" a human being well................there's no point arguing then.
I'm sure him being "just a human being", was asked the 3 questions by Munkir Nakir in his grave.

I rest my case.

I've already given enough proof from Quran and hadith.
Haven't even mentioned Shia ahadith because I know their message will fall on deaf ears.

May Allah bless you all and guide you all soon.

 

[Mamoon]

Well well well.

What else should I have expected from a guy who thinks that the signs of the End of Time is just an analogy. Who thinks Meraj was a mystical story. Who thinks miracles don't happen. Who thinks that Hazrat Isa AS is dead. Who thinks all Prophets are dead.

I expected something more logical and in line with Quran and Hadith.
If you still think Rasool SAWW was "JUST" a human being well................there's no point arguing then.
I'm sure him being "just a human being", was asked the 3 questions by Munkir Nakir in his grave.

I rest my case.

I've already given enough proof from Quran and hadith.
Haven't even mentioned Shia ahadith because I know their message will fall on deaf ears.

May Allah bless you all and guide you all soon.

I have proposed a very simple solution. Open a few graves and if they bodies are still intact after a few centuries, I am sure the whole world will embrace Islam.

As far as the Prophet getting questioned by Munkir Nakir, the Prophet PBUH himself said that he is just a man, and even he know doesn’t know what will become of him after he dies.

Moreover, the soul leaves the body on death. It doesn’t stay in the body when a person is buried. The body is nothing more than the nails and hair that you cut and discard.

What happens to the Qabaar ka Azaab of the suicide bomber who dies in a blast, or people who die in plane crashes and their bodies aren’t found?

Where does Munkir and Nakeer greet them with the 3 questions?

There is no Qabar ka Azaab. It is the soul that is questioned and not the discarded body in the coffin.

As far as Jesus is concerned, I hope you are still alive when he comes back, because he is not going to come back. He is dead, and no man has ever returned from the death.

Don’t confuse metaphors, analogies, stories that have been distorted over the generations with logics and facts.

Adam eating a fruit and getting banned from heaven, sticks turning into serpents, the Prophet splitting the moon and riding a flying horse in the middle of the night and taking a ladder to heaven from a mosque in Jerusalem are stories that were sold to a 7th century Arabian society and have been distorted over the centuries and generations.

When it comes to miracles, it is not a coincidence that miracles stopped happening with the emergence of science and technology.

In the old times, there were no explanations to certain phenomena and certain events, which is why they were dubbed as miracles.

The concept of optical illusion did not exist which is why people believed that Musa turned his stick into a snake. However, modern magicians can perform bigger miracles than that, such as splitting a man into two in front of large audiences.

Street magicians can trick the mind into the thinking that they are hovering. If this happened a thousand years ago, it will be dubbed as a miracle.

Moreover, there was no knowledge of dreams at that time and it’s different types, and concept of lucid dreams and hallucinations did not exist.

All the miracles have either been distorted or science have found an explanation for them today. That is why miracles do not happen anymore.

 

[marlonbrowndo]

[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] I agree with you on this but strongly disagree with you saying that meraj was spiritual. It is understandable why miracles may not happen anymore but this is the Prophet pbuh we are talking about. The prophets were on another level and it would make sense that Allah assisted them from time to time. A miracle isn’t a simple dream. The reason it is called a miracle is because it transcends the laws of the universe. Anyway this is just how I feel. Never really discussed it with anyone to know what most people believe.

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

I have proposed a very simple solution. Open a few graves and if they bodies are still intact after a few centuries, I am sure the whole world will embrace Islam.

As far as the Prophet getting questioned by Munkir Nakir, the Prophet PBUH himself said that he is just a man, and even he know doesn’t know what will become of him after he dies.

Moreover, the soul leaves the body on death. It doesn’t stay in the body when a person is buried. The body is nothing more than the nails and hair that you cut and discard.

What happens to the Qabaar ka Azaab of the suicide bomber who dies in a blast, or people who die in plane crashes and their bodies aren’t found?

Where does Munkir and Nakeer greet them with the 3 questions?

There is no Qabar ka Azaab. It is the soul that is questioned and not the discarded body in the coffin.

As far as Jesus is concerned, I hope you are still alive when he comes back, because he is not going to come back. He is dead, and no man has ever returned from the death.

Don’t confuse metaphors, analogies, stories that have been distorted over the generations with logics and facts.

Adam eating a fruit and getting banned from heaven, sticks turning into serpents, the Prophet splitting the moon and riding a flying horse in the middle of the night and taking a ladder to heaven from a mosque in Jerusalem are stories that were sold to a 7th century Arabian society and have been distorted over the centuries and generations.

When it comes to miracles, it is not a coincidence that miracles stopped happening with the emergence of science and technology.

In the old times, there were no explanations to certain phenomena and certain events, which is why they were dubbed as miracles.

The concept of optical illusion did not exist which is why people believed that Musa turned his stick into a snake. However, modern magicians can perform bigger miracles than that, such as splitting a man into two in front of large audiences.

Street magicians can trick the mind into the thinking that they are hovering. If this happened a thousand years ago, it will be dubbed as a miracle.

Moreover, there was no knowledge of dreams at that time and it’s different types, and concept of lucid dreams and hallucinations did not exist.

All the miracles have either been distorted or science have found an explanation for them today. That is why miracles do not happen anymore.

Your ultra-practical and weird analogies and assumptions are giving me a headache to say the very least.

I have one last question.

If what you say is true then why was the body of the Pharaoh Rameses II preserved?

My answer is that Allah himself had promised to make him an example for humanity.

Isn't the preservation of the pharaoh a miracle of the Quran and the fulfillment of Allah's promise.

(P.S. Won't display the pics because they're absolutely disgusting)

 

[Mamoon]

Your ultra-practical and weird analogies and assumptions are giving me a headache to say the very least.

I have one last question.

If what you say is true then why was the body of the Pharaoh Rameses II preserved?

My answer is that Allah himself had promised to make him an example for humanity.

Isn't the preservation of the pharaoh a miracle of the Quran and the fulfillment of Allah's promise.

(P.S. Won't display the pics because they're absolutely disgusting)

Except that it is not a miracle anymore because science has shown that not all bodies decay. It is quite possible that Rameses' body was exposed to surroundings that made the process of decomposition very, very slow.

For me, a miracle is something that science cannot logically explain. Such miracles do not happen in our times and they did not happen in the old times either. They only difference is that now, science can explain these so-called miracles.

Rameses is not the only natural mummy and neither is the most well-preserved.

If the preserved body of Rameses was a sign, then I wonder what Otzi the Iceman is? If you don't know, it is a name given to a natural mummy that was found in Austria, and is about 5,300 years old. It is considered to be the most well-preserved natural mummy to have ever been discovered.

Will it be okay to consider an example of humanity? Well if you want to call the body of Rameses a miracle, then I think that Otzi is a bigger miracle than Rameses.

Furthermore, on a side note, people often cite the example of Rameses and his horrific demise as a sign. My question is, what would you call the demise of Muhammad bin Qasim, the man who brought Islam to Sindh and overthrew the Hindu ruler Raja Dahir?

Raja Dahir's daughter wrapped and stitched Muhammad bin Qasim in the skin of a bull, and dragged him across the scorching deserts of Sindh - the body of the bull served as an oven, and he was baked.

If this would have been the fate of a non-Muslim ruler, it would have been on the lips of all Muslims today and the textbooks would have been infiltrated by this story. However, now that the narrative does not suit us, we have distorted the history. This is the true account of Muhammad bin Qasim's death according to the Chach Nama, the actual history of Sindh penned down by Sindhis.

 

[Mamoon]

[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] I agree with you on this but strongly disagree with you saying that meraj was spiritual. It is understandable why miracles may not happen anymore but this is the Prophet pbuh we are talking about. The prophets were on another level and it would make sense that Allah assisted them from time to time. A miracle isn’t a simple dream. The reason it is called a miracle is because it transcends the laws of the universe. Anyway this is just how I feel. Never really discussed it with anyone to know what most people believe.

Honestly, I don't know. The idea of a flying horse and the Prophet PBUH climbing the world's tallest ladder from Jerusalem to Heaven sounds very fairytale like. Another question that comes in my mind is why a flying horse?

Why a mode of transport that was relevant to that period? Clearly, Allah SWT is not bounded by the technology created by humans. Why didn't the Prophet PBUH simply get teleported from his house in Makkah to Jerusalem, instead of riding a flying horse?

Furthermore, if the Prophet PBUH would have been born in let's say 1970 instead of 570, and would have embarked on the Mairaj journey in 2020 instead of 610, do you think he would still be riding a flying horse? Or would he be using a modern mode of transport?

The more I read about it, the more I come to the conclusion that the journey and the ascension to heaven was a dream. Since the Prophet PBUH could not envision anything that he had not seen in his time, the only way he could envision a journey from one country to another in a matter of hours was through a flying horse, since a 7th century man did not know about airplanes.

 

[Justcrazy]

Same as in most Arab countries as well as Indonesia and Turkey....

Desi Muslims do not have a monopoly on "cultural Islam"

My point was regarding making graves , a place of worship. People think that dead saints and peers etc can respond to problems and help the alive people. Another interesting fact is that the so called saint is followed by only of that sect.

For example Imam Ahmed Raza Khan is considered as Mujadid by barelvi sect , on the other hand salafi and Deobandis consider him an innovator and a highly misguided soul. Similarly Moulana Ashraf Ali Thanvi is considered hakim Ul Ummat by Deobandis , where as Barelvis consider him disbeliever . 360 degree opinions.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Honestly, I don't know. The idea of a flying horse and the Prophet PBUH climbing the world's tallest ladder from Jerusalem to Heaven sounds very fairytale like. Another question that comes in my mind is why a flying horse?

Why a mode of transport that was relevant to that period? Clearly, Allah SWT is not bounded by the technology created by humans. Why didn't the Prophet PBUH simply get teleported from his house in Makkah to Jerusalem, instead of riding a flying horse?

Furthermore, if the Prophet PBUH would have been born in let's say 1970 instead of 570, and would have embarked on the Mairaj journey in 2020 instead of 610, do you think he would still be riding a flying horse? Or would he be using a modern mode of transport?

However I agree with your post regarding this subject.

The more I read about it, the more I come to the conclusion that the journey and the ascension to heaven was a dream. Since the Prophet PBUH could not envision anything that he had not seen in his time, the only way he could envision a journey from one country to another in a matter of hours was through a flying horse, since a 7th century man did not know about airplanes.

Bro please research thourougly before coming up with conclusions. Buraq was not a flying horse, it leaped large distances according to most scholars.

Also the people of Mecca said pretty much which you have but called it a dream at best and laughed at the Prophet(pbuh), he then described Jerusalem in details which astouned the critics. Yes some elements of the story may not be literal but the event itself occured, this is accepted by the vast majority of scholars throught the history of Islam and today.

When someone comes up with a reformist or an opinion which goes against the consensus people will then not take this person seriously in any other views he/she has.

 

[faraz39]

Bro please research thourougly before coming up with conclusions. Buraq was not a flying horse, it leaped large distances according to most scholars.

Also the people of Mecca said pretty much which you have but called it a dream at best and laughed at the Prophet(pbuh), he then described Jerusalem in details which astouned the critics. Yes some elements of the story may not be literal but the event itself occured, this is accepted by the vast majority of scholars throught the history of Islam and today.

When someone comes up with a reformist or an opinion which goes against the consensus people will then not take this person seriously in any other views he/she has.

There is absolutely no doubt amongst all Muslim scholars that the Isra'a wal Mi'raj happened in the literal sense and that Prophet Isa (pbuh) will come back before the end of times. There is absolutely no denying these facts for believing Muslims.

 

[Musakhel]

My point was regarding making graves , a place of worship. People think that dead saints and peers etc can respond to problems and help the alive people. Another interesting fact is that the so called saint is followed by only of that sect.

For example Imam Ahmed Raza Khan is considered as Mujadid by barelvi sect , on the other hand salafi and Deobandis consider him an innovator and a highly misguided soul. Similarly Moulana Ashraf Ali Thanvi is considered hakim Ul Ummat by Deobandis , where as Barelvis consider him disbeliever . 360 degree opinions.

Imam zaini dahlan

wrote in his book Durar al Saniyyah fi Radd ala al Wahhabiyyah about the difference between the non believer’s faith and the Muslim faith with regard to Tawassul as follows:

“The blasphemers intended in these verses believed their idols deserved Godhood. They exalted them as one would exalt his Creator, even though they believed the idols did not create the heavens and the earth. The believers, on the other hand, do not believe the prophets or righteous Muslims (awliya’) deserve to be worshipped, nor do they deserve to be attributed with Godhood, nor do they exalt them as one would exalt God. They believe these people are good slaves of Allah, His beloved ones whom He chose, and by their blessings (barakah) Allah grants His mercy to His creation. Hence, when the slaves of Allah seek the blessings (barakah) of the prophets and righteous Muslims (awliya’) they are seeking these blessings as a mercy from Allah. “

 

[Kashmirilion]

Dear Muslim brothers. Prophet pbuh was sent as a blessing for man kind. A role model whose etiquettes we should try our best to follow the best of the best of the creation of Allah. We should follow his sunnah. His life is well documented through various ahadith just follow his sunnah and you will need be wrong if it wasn't a sunnah then do not do it simple as. Did prophet saw do any of those things that happen at shrines? was there shrines in his time how did he deal with these issues? Answers lie in those questions. Don't follow the maulanas who misquote ahadith use common sense. Islam was perfected 1400 years ago. No need of innovation (Biddah).

 

[Hermoine Green]

Honestly, I don't know. The idea of a flying horse and the Prophet PBUH climbing the world's tallest ladder from Jerusalem to Heaven sounds very fairytale like. Another question that comes in my mind is why a flying horse?

Why a mode of transport that was relevant to that period? Clearly, Allah SWT is not bounded by the technology created by humans. Why didn't the Prophet PBUH simply get teleported from his house in Makkah to Jerusalem, instead of riding a flying horse?

Furthermore, if the Prophet PBUH would have been born in let's say 1970 instead of 570, and would have embarked on the Mairaj journey in 2020 instead of 610, do you think he would still be riding a flying horse? Or would he be using a modern mode of transport?

The more I read about it, the more I come to the conclusion that the journey and the ascension to heaven was a dream. Since the Prophet PBUH could not envision anything that he had not seen in his time, the only way he could envision a journey from one country to another in a matter of hours was through a flying horse, since a 7th century man did not know about airplanes.

Gives the answer. You need to research more about Buraaq

You are becoming a doctor as far i know but some times you strike like a Kid.

 

[Justcrazy]

Imam zaini dahlan

wrote in his book Durar al Saniyyah fi Radd ala al Wahhabiyyah about the difference between the non believer’s faith and the Muslim faith with regard to Tawassul as follows:

“The blasphemers intended in these verses believed their idols deserved Godhood. They exalted them as one would exalt his Creator, even though they believed the idols did not create the heavens and the earth. The believers, on the other hand, do not believe the prophets or righteous Muslims (awliya’) deserve to be worshipped, nor do they deserve to be attributed with Godhood, nor do they exalt them as one would exalt God. They believe these people are good slaves of Allah, His beloved ones whom He chose, and by their blessings (barakah) Allah grants His mercy to His creation. Hence, when the slaves of Allah seek the blessings (barakah) of the prophets and righteous Muslims (awliya’) they are seeking these blessings as a mercy from Allah. “

One cannot ask from Allah swt directly ? Whom did the prophets ask for help when they were in need ? Also , who are the " awliyas " you referring to . My awliyas are Abu bakr , Ali , Umar , Abdul rehman Awff , Amaaar RA .

 

[Justcrazy]

There is absolutely no doubt amongst all Muslim scholars that the Isra'a wal Mi'raj happened in the literal sense and that Prophet Isa (pbuh) will come back before the end of times. There is absolutely no denying these facts for believing Muslims.

Probably very few scholars deny that , people like Ghamdi , Ghulam Ahmed Pervez etc. " Ahmedis " also deny it , but they have some different reasons for that. But across 14 centuries including the first 3 generations its almost like ijma.

 

[yasir]

He is 100% right on this occasion. Unfortunately, it’s a South Asian problem.

Well why same principle does not apply to Mohammad(The Prophet) himself?? Drood and using Prophet as a middle man between one self and God is a central theme in Islam, these are derivatives of that idea. Drood is part of Namaz. All Prophets in Bible and Quran are one way or another part of Ibharim's family. Ibharimic religions are all about worshiping Ibharim's family, there are trillions of planets in the universe, probably billions with life, who knows how many verses(instance of what we call universe) we have, and all God can talk about in his books is stories of family of only one guy?? - Don't tell me he has diversity in mind

Giving importance to religious figures is central theme in all religions, and not just to them but to their blood line, that is the whole reason of religion, its a long term investment for your blood line. Ibharim must be a happy man(if he ever existed), he successfully able to create a cult that is lasted 4000 years after his death, no matter how enlighten world gets, his name is still buzzing with masses, who else has better legacy than him...

As far as Desis Muslims, that's my whole point about 'Nazaria Pakistan', its a big fad, there is no real difference between Hindus and Muslims, they have same culture, only veneer is different, why we killed millions in 1947, when you are going to adopt exact same rotten culture(cast system, slavery for masses) on both sides. If they revolted against cast system, oppression of Brits, that would mean something...What exact problem was solved by killing Hindus and Muslims on both sides??

 

[Mamoon]

Bro please research thourougly before coming up with conclusions. Buraq was not a flying horse, it leaped large distances according to most scholars.

Also the people of Mecca said pretty much which you have but called it a dream at best and laughed at the Prophet(pbuh), he then described Jerusalem in details which astouned the critics. Yes some elements of the story may not be literal but the event itself occured, this is accepted by the vast majority of scholars throught the history of Islam and today.

When someone comes up with a reformist or an opinion which goes against the consensus people will then not take this person seriously in any other views he/she has.

According to Sahih Bukhari, Buraq was an Equidae (horse family) that was larger than a donkey but smaller than a mule. It had wings and could travel very fast, covering very long distances with its leaps. Since it had wings, it could also fly. However, whether it flew or jumped long distances is beyond the point.

Why did the Prophet PBUH use a mode of commute that was relevant to the time and place where he lived? If he was around today, and this journey would have happened in this time period, would he still be traveling a flying/jumping horse?

Did God chose a mode of transport for him that his companions of that time could made sense of, or did the Prophet PBUH used a winged horse as an example so that his companions could make sense of his journey?

Would he have traveled in a rocket or an airplane today, since his companions could have made sense of it?

This whole winged horse and climbing ladder to the Heavens business are just stories and fantasies, that have been fabricated and distorted over the generations. Mythology has no place in Islam, and such stories and fantasies belong in One Thousand and One Arabian Nights and other fairytales in children books.

 

[Mamoon]

Gives the answer. You need to research more about Buraaq

You are becoming a doctor as far i know but some times you strike like a Kid.

"I don't know" was not about the winged horse. I was talking about the miracles of the Prophets and how there are no miracles today because there are no Prophets.

Maybe that is true, and I don't want to discount it completely (hence, the "I don't know"), but science and technology today have been able to explain certain phenomena today, and these phenomena were known as miracles when human beings were not advanced enough to make sense of events that they could not explain.

I have done my research on Buraq, and a winged animal that is bigger than a donkey and smaller than a mule that can jump/fly long distances and travel very fast does not belong in Islam - it belongs in the One Thousand and One Arabian Nights stories along with Sinbad, Aladdin, Ali Baba etc. etc.

Mythology has no place in Islam - these stories and fantasies are not Islam.

I am a doctor, but my profession has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that I study and do my research without taking things at face value, and parroting what my parents and society have fed me since my childhood.

The reason why you and I are Muslims today is because our parents were Muslims. You and I would be defending Hinduism today if we were born in a Hindu household.

This is something that I understand and that is why I study and ponder over these things, allowing me to reject and accept things without blindly following beliefs.

If this makes me a kid, so be it. I would rather be a kid than be a 50 year old man like you who believes in winged horses, ladders leading to Heaven and sticks turning into snakes and other such fairytales and mythological stories.

 

[Mamoon]

Well why same principle does not apply to Mohammad(The Prophet) himself?? Drood and using Prophet as a middle man between one self and God is a central theme in Islam, these are derivatives of that idea. Drood is part of Namaz. All Prophets in Bible and Quran are one way or another part of Ibharim's family. Ibharimic religions are all about worshiping Ibharim's family, there are trillions of planets in the universe, probably billions with life, who knows how many verses(instance of what we call universe) we have, and all God can talk about in his books is stories of family of only one guy?? - Don't tell me he has diversity in mind

Giving importance to religious figures is central theme in all religions, and not just to them but to their blood line, that is the whole reason of religion, its a long term investment for your blood line. Ibharim must be a happy man(if he ever existed), he successfully able to create a cult that is lasted 4000 years after his death, no matter how enlighten world gets, his name is still buzzing with masses, who else has better legacy than him...

As far as Desis Muslims, that's my whole point about 'Nazaria Pakistan', its a big fad, there is no real difference between Hindus and Muslims, they have same culture, only veneer is different, why we killed millions in 1947, when you are going to adopt exact same rotten culture(cast system, slavery for masses) on both sides. If they revolted against cast system, oppression of Brits, that would mean something...What exact problem was solved by killing Hindus and Muslims on both sides??

The principle applies to the Prophet PBUH as well because he was was a human being, and like other human beings, he passed away and he cannot help anyone now. There is nothing wrong in going to his grave and paying his respect, but he cannot answer our prayer and we cannot ask him to help us. If you believe in God, only He can help you, not his Prophets.

 

[KingKhanWC]

According to Sahih Bukhari, Buraq was an Equidae (horse family) that was larger than a donkey but smaller than a mule. It had wings and could travel very fast, covering very long distances with its leaps. Since it had wings, it could also fly. However, whether it flew or jumped long distances is beyond the point.

Why did the Prophet PBUH use a mode of commute that was relevant to the time and place where he lived? If he was around today, and this journey would have happened in this time period, would he still be traveling a flying/jumping horse?

Did God chose a mode of transport for him that his companions of that time could made sense of, or did the Prophet PBUH used a winged horse as an example so that his companions could make sense of his journey?

Would he have traveled in a rocket or an airplane today, since his companions could have made sense of it?

This whole winged horse and climbing ladder to the Heavens business are just stories and fantasies, that have been fabricated and distorted over the generations. Mythology has no place in Islam, and such stories and fantasies belong in One Thousand and One Arabian Nights and other fairytales in children books.

This is the best lecture I've heard on the subject, If you have time it answers all your questions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0kNlh0N9bE

God sent a creature he created to transport the Prophet(pubs). He could have sent anything but perhaps chose this creature as it allowed the Prophet(pbuh) the best view to see the areas he was travelling over. As when ridiculed he was asked to describe what he saw and he was able to describe many things , one of with was a caravan travelling which was confirmed.

This isn't a minor story but a major one and very important one. There never has been much debate between Muslims regarding the literal aspect of this throughout the ages until now. Tbh you're the first one I've ever come across who feels it's mythology. With respect you cannot squash a consensus which has been agreed upon by all the great scholars of Islam.

 

[yasir]

The principle applies to the Prophet PBUH as well because he was was a human being, and like other human beings, he passed away and he cannot help anyone now. There is nothing wrong in going to his grave and paying his respect, but he cannot answer our prayer and we cannot ask him to help us. If you believe in God, only He can help you, not his Prophets.

Drood business is not that straight forward, its pretty vague. First of all why even God is sending Drood or his blessing upon Prophet? - Why Prophet needs any blessing, he is already pretty clean(atleast by the believers), the term Sadaq and Ameen was coined after him for a reason

One way to look at God justice is that it should not matter how much try to bribe God, that has no real meaning, at the same time, God encourages masses to believe in him, praise him 24X7, while praising him you have to praise the Prophet. Those two properties are conflict of interest, its like Supreme Court justice, wants to have column written in his praise, everyday and that too on front page...

Rationally why God is bribing people to praise himself and Prophet, both of them does not need to be saved from something else. Tricky part is you get some sort of nakees as part of those rituals, well that's the main reason people are still actively involved in Drood business, if there is no monitory(aka in God's currency) benefit of praising God or Prophet, why anybody would do it 24X7??

Peer and Dargha business is extension of same fundamental concept. When you send Drood to Prophet, you get in return, some sort of Safarish from Prophet in after life, why God will listen to a dead man like Mohammad, well he is well respected in his eyes and has good relationship with God, at the end of the day, God's Justice dynamics are very similar to our world Peer/Dargha works on same line as Prophet, but a smaller scale, concept is same

Also, there is no clear reason for worship, worship in it self is not suppose to be something useful. For example, Mohammad Rizwan has highest YoYo score, but he is not good enough to be in the team, fitness does not automatically translate to performance in the match. You can be very fit but choke in actual match... Same way, no matter how much you worship God, that does not translate how good you are in real life...God's Justice system has fundamental flaw, he is very biased, if you don't believe in him, you are no good, but that is not a fact. Good and Bad people are in every society, culture, belief system, educated or illiterate etc. Good and Bad has nothing to do with belief in God or any one dimension of human attributes...