Bewal Express
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Maybe the analysis could be for batsman 1-3, then another one for 1-6. Either way I know anecdotally that all his contemporaries would come on top as well other bowlers like Craig McDermott.
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[VIDEO] Glenn McGrath vs Wasim Akram. Who was better?
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Fastandfurious
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http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...e=results;type=bowling;view=dismissal_summary
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...e=results;type=bowling;view=dismissal_summary
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...e=results;type=bowling;view=dismissal_summary
Averages between Wasim and Mcgrath against the top 6 are similar give or take. Marshall triumphs them both.
For your information, I do rate Marshall as the greatest.
Top 5: Marshall, Ambrose, Wasim, Mcgrath, Imran/Hadlee.
Bewal Express
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It may not sound like but I was a fan, and his performance in the 92 WC was my happiest cricket moment. His bowling at the Oval in 96, or in Antigua in 2000 will live long in the memory. I agree with people when they say that he was an incredible talent, I just think he didn't achieve to his potential in tests.
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Mcgrath was more consistent but Wasim was more entertaining and much more threatening with the older ball.
Anfield
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Why is Donald Left out?
Wasim on his good days was much better than Mcgrath. On good days, he used to be economical as well as dangerous with figures like 2/18 in 8 overs or something. Wasim was more adept at the death in ODIs and deadly with reverse swing.
Only problem with Wasim was his inconsistency. Many times Wasim's line and lengths wasn't immaculate enough to create pressure or the batsman would relieve pressure from a wayward Waqar. Mcgrath for one never erred in his line and his bowling partner in Warnie or Gillespie were good enough to maintain pressure.
However, I will still vote for McGrath in Tests because of his results which matter the most in the end
Only problem with Wasim was his inconsistency. Many times Wasim's line and lengths wasn't immaculate enough to create pressure or the batsman would relieve pressure from a wayward Waqar. Mcgrath for one never erred in his line and his bowling partner in Warnie or Gillespie were good enough to maintain pressure.
However, I will still vote for McGrath in Tests because of his results which matter the most in the end
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Fastandfurious
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The comments so far have been neutral except for some Wasimites popping up. We appreciate class no matter the background, otherwise we'd all be putting Wasim over Marshall.
Bewal Express
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I think a fairer picture emerges when you compare what % of their total wickets were top 6 batsman. Anecdotally I can tell you that WA took more lower order wickets and the other bowlers took a higher proportions of top order wickets.
Fastandfurious
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In the top 5? or the statistics analysis? If the former, he could definitely make a case as for statistics Bewal and I were discussing those three.
Anfield
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should be a contender for top 5 too.
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Fastandfurious
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You're nitpicking my friend, just because he was destructive against the lower order, he wasn't good against the top? Check how many wickets Johnson picked up against the tailenders in the recent Ashes. So that should go against him? No, because tail runs more often than not decide a test match.
Furthermore, Marshall and Mcgrath played in ATG teams and had superb fielding, never mind the consistent scoreboard pressure those great batting sides used to put up. They also played on more bowling friendly pitches.
On the other hand, Wasim constantly had to deal with batting collapses, poor fielding and SC pitches. Mcgrath and Marshall also played more games in their prime simply because Pakistan didn't play and still don't play a lot of tests. Take out Wasim's last 8 tests where he was clearly done and dusted, he averages 22 in 96 tests at 400 wickets.
Swap Wasim into the ATG Australian or Windies team and he'd average 20 or under, I've no doubt because of the freedom he'd be able to bowl with.
Fastandfurious
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He is and I rate him higher than Steyn.
Bewal Express
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I don't agree that he would have averaged 20 and obviously you have done the analysis and realised that your evidence doesn't back up your grand claims. WA was a great bowler but I get annoyed by the YouTube generation picking out a few videos to show that some how he was the best ever-He wasn't, he wasn't far of his contemporaries but for me he was just short. I wonder what claims would have been made for Donald had he been one of ours.A guy that lost 6 years of his peak and still manage together 350+ wickets.
Fastandfurious
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What was my grand claim? I still rank Wasim at 3.
330 wickets and Allan Donald was an absolute beast. He could make a case for top 5 but just not my list. He is better than Steyn though.
Buffet
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Here is the breakdown and your impression is not wrong. Donald, Ambrose and McGrath took bulk of wickets from the top order. In fact, they took most wickets in 1-3 then bit less in 4-7 and then least amount of wickets in 8-11.
Wasim situation is exact opposite. He took most wickets in 8-11, then bit less in 4-7 and even less in 1-3. I don't want to pull stats for all bowlers.
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Buffet
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I meant exactly that. Most posterss make good points and we may not agree but they do put their points nicely. You will always find some over the top posts which adds nothing to the discussion. I was saying that it's better to ignore such posts because you will always find some for sure when it comes to comments regarding Pakistani payers in PP.
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Buffet
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As far as McGrath vs Wasim goes - McGrath has 220+ top order wickets and Wasim has 130+. Difference is huge. If you can get rid of top order cheaply then opposition will struggle most of the time to put a big total.
Having said this, some difference is due to Wasim being more dependent on reverse swing than conventional swing. That was not the case with McGrath.
Fastandfurious
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Played most his tests in SC. This is how it works in the SC, early swing damage, fast bowlers have to be economical in the middle overs and spinners take wickets, and then reverse swing comes in, destruction.
In the middle overs, hard to take wickets on abrasive and unresponsive wickets. The ball loses its shine early. Early on, chances are created with catching opportunities in the slips/WK which Pakistan were/are the worst at.
Wickets caught:
Marshall - 227 in 81 tests
Mcgrath - 373 in 124 tests
Wasim - 193 in 104
Sandeep
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Wasim Akram was a magician! He was magical and aesthetically pleasing to watch.
McGrath was a ruthless machine who would decimate everyone!
Tough to choose but I'd go for
bhai for the sheer entertainment he gave
McGrath was a ruthless machine who would decimate everyone!
Tough to choose but I'd go for
bhai for the sheer entertainment he gaveBewal Express
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As I said I knew these stats anecdotally from watching the guys. Top order wickets matter and knocking out the top order of the opposition leads to wins. For all the hype about Akram and swing there were long periods when he struggled to swing the new ball and that's one of the reasons that he struggled(comparatively) to take order wickets.
Rate Steyn, Donald, McGrath, Ambrose ahead of Wasim of all the bowlers that played in last 20 years in Tests. Even in ODIs, McGrath was just better. He also won the player of the tornament award in his final ODI series.
Wasim could do so much with the ball but wasn't close to McGrath. Anderson is very skillfull too but he isn't close to Walsh. Being skillfull means nothing because the primary job was to take wickets and McGrath did it more consistently abd quickly.
Wasim could do so much with the ball but wasn't close to McGrath. Anderson is very skillfull too but he isn't close to Walsh. Being skillfull means nothing because the primary job was to take wickets and McGrath did it more consistently abd quickly.
Chrish
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And it continues..
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Belawal2014
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So this meme was deleted from another thread. Perhaps the mods will find it more apt in this thread.
Wasim wasn't close to Mcgrath? Lol
And no, Mcgrath was not better than Akram in Odis, he wasn't even as good
aslaisnomasla
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Lara's mile ahead of both sachin and pointing in fact both cant even polish Lara's shoes.
ChachaCricket
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If you're so interested, then join the discussion.
ChachaCricket
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Both are neck and neck when analyzed thoroughly and not just based on overall stats. In fact, it's hard to separate Marshall, Wasim, Imran, McGrath, Ambrose, Donald, Hadlee. You can make a case for any of them. It all comes down to personal bias.
Mcgrath performed better but with the kind of professionalism they had in their team, their catching , their analysis of players they were playing against and most of all with the name "Australia".
Australian overall team had some magic in them.I am not degrading Mcgrath performances because he played a big part in what Australia was as a team but these factors govern your opinion nevertheless. If I swap the teams of respective players I will think of Wasim as a better bowler.
Australian overall team had some magic in them.I am not degrading Mcgrath performances because he played a big part in what Australia was as a team but these factors govern your opinion nevertheless. If I swap the teams of respective players I will think of Wasim as a better bowler.
theAfridian
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On peer admiration - Wasim Akram wins hands down.
Wasim Akram played on subcontinent wickets, with poor catchers and far less scoreboard pressure unlike Mcgrath.
Not even a close contest - Wasim was a far better bowler and the most complete bowler that ever played the game.
Those who say Mcgrath have deficiencies in their cricketing sense.
Wasim Akram played on subcontinent wickets, with poor catchers and far less scoreboard pressure unlike Mcgrath.
Not even a close contest - Wasim was a far better bowler and the most complete bowler that ever played the game.
Those who say Mcgrath have deficiencies in their cricketing sense.
Square Drive
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Taking entertainment, batting ability, the quality (or lack thereof) of the fielders, and battling with diabetes into account, one would have to give it to Wasim.
Though both were fabulous. Amazing cricketers.
Though both were fabulous. Amazing cricketers.
Stallion__
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Its amazing that even those contemporary batsmen who have played Wasim only during later part of his career, rate him so high, specially when there were so many other great bowlers around during that time.
Its understandable for guys like Border, Taylor, Ganguly, Lara who have played him at his peak but for players like Sanga (I think even has a double ton against Wasim), Jayawerdena and Kallis only played him handful of times, that too when Wasim was over the hill (though they themselves were youngsters). Yuvraj just played him in 2003 WC and said that the first ball he faced from Wasim, he decided to play him out and let his 10 overs get completed and then attack others. Wasim must have some strong aura with him.
Anyways OT, McGrath was an amazing bowler himself. Probably both of them never let any batsman dominate them (for some consistent period of time). That has not been the case with Steyn, thats why I am reluctant to rate him higher.
Wasim though was more talented, but he underachieved for various reasons, some even not in his control. Ignoring the batting pedigree, purely as a bowler, McGrath has achieved more than Wasim. So its fair to rate McGrath ahead of Wasim.
I have always thought of this comparison as Lara (Wasim) vs Sachin (McGrath). One a true artist and genius, many would pay to watch them in full flow while the other has been consistently good for their teams, piling up world records and taking their teams to greater heights.
Its understandable for guys like Border, Taylor, Ganguly, Lara who have played him at his peak but for players like Sanga (I think even has a double ton against Wasim), Jayawerdena and Kallis only played him handful of times, that too when Wasim was over the hill (though they themselves were youngsters). Yuvraj just played him in 2003 WC and said that the first ball he faced from Wasim, he decided to play him out and let his 10 overs get completed and then attack others. Wasim must have some strong aura with him.
Anyways OT, McGrath was an amazing bowler himself. Probably both of them never let any batsman dominate them (for some consistent period of time). That has not been the case with Steyn, thats why I am reluctant to rate him higher.
Wasim though was more talented, but he underachieved for various reasons, some even not in his control. Ignoring the batting pedigree, purely as a bowler, McGrath has achieved more than Wasim. So its fair to rate McGrath ahead of Wasim.
I have always thought of this comparison as Lara (Wasim) vs Sachin (McGrath). One a true artist and genius, many would pay to watch them in full flow while the other has been consistently good for their teams, piling up world records and taking their teams to greater heights.
as-95
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Wasim was the superior bowler. McGrath is on a similar level along with Malcolm Marshall, but Wasim is the superior cricketer. A true genius.
ChachaCricket
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I'd like to hear the reasons which were under his control.
Chrish
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For what it's worth I will give you my final word..
This is not even comparison.. This is a Pak forum so I understand this issue is even being debated. But if you bring this up in a neutral forum, people will laugh at you in your face! Certain things in life are subjective, while this definitely is not. It's like comparing Matty Hayden to Sobers! The difference is just huge..
Mcgrath is head, shoulder, and rib-cage above Wasim and any other bowler since 90s for that matter!
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Chrish
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Basically this..
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ChachaCricket
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Those 'neutral' posters are mostly Aussies and some Indians and I know the forum you're talking about. This is not a comparison lol. Talk about blind fanboying.
ChachaCricket
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A couple of points for those who don't put Wasim on the same level.
Is it fair to a bowler that he's done the hard work beating the batsman for an lbw only to be turned down because the umpire couldn't follow the swing or create an edge only to be betrayed by his fielders consistently?
Would Wasim's record improve if he were to have a slip cordon and ATG batting lineup like Australia? Yes.
Would McGrath's record worsen if you gave him Pakistani fielders and batting lineup? Unquestionably.
Would Wasim have liked to play 100+ tests in his prime instead of 66? Yes.
These are all facts and you'd be simply lying to yourself if you deny them. Please do tell if you think otherwise.
Supposedly you do take all these facts into consideration when rating them. If so then how are they not comparable? Especially if you were to factor in the sheer amount of peer ratings that Wasim gets.
I'd like to hear your answers. [MENTION=97523]Buffet[/MENTION] [MENTION=138493]Chrish[/MENTION] and others.
Is it fair to a bowler that he's done the hard work beating the batsman for an lbw only to be turned down because the umpire couldn't follow the swing or create an edge only to be betrayed by his fielders consistently?
Would Wasim's record improve if he were to have a slip cordon and ATG batting lineup like Australia? Yes.
Would McGrath's record worsen if you gave him Pakistani fielders and batting lineup? Unquestionably.
Would Wasim have liked to play 100+ tests in his prime instead of 66? Yes.
These are all facts and you'd be simply lying to yourself if you deny them. Please do tell if you think otherwise.
Supposedly you do take all these facts into consideration when rating them. If so then how are they not comparable? Especially if you were to factor in the sheer amount of peer ratings that Wasim gets.
I'd like to hear your answers. [MENTION=97523]Buffet[/MENTION] [MENTION=138493]Chrish[/MENTION] and others.
Blistering Barnacle
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Call me biased, and I don't care about stats, Wasim Akram was the best ODI bowler I've every seen.
Buffet
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I saw both and they are surely comparable. I rate Wasim among the top bowlers but I rate McGrath higher.
Your all points are good but getting exaggerated swing is useless because only gun batsmen will get out on those balls. Most batsmen will never get close to the ball to nick it. Aim of bowler is to take wickets and I think normal but late swing is the best for getting a nick.
ChachaCricket
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Point was about umpires denying Wasim plumb LBWs because it was difficult to follow his swing because it was so late or perhaps it was just down to biased umpiring. This happened to Wasim more than any bowler.
Some examples:
ChachaCricket
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Turned down about 4-5 wickets in this spell.
Buffet
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Well in absence of ball tracking and DRS stuff, we can hardly blame umpires too much. Umpires had to be sure to give it out. I have seen enough wickets not given to Wasim but then I have seen that with other bowlers as well. Not sure if I can compare it with any certainty.
With Wasim, I will put it to him getting late swing and very little reaction time for umpire to judge the trajectory.
Buffet
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Umpires have an easy time if ball is not turning by a big margin for spinners or swinging by a big margin for pacers.
ChachaCricket
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I'm not denying others suffered as well but definitely not to the extent Wasim did because he beat the batsmen and the umpires as crazy as that sounds.
So the point is raised, did Wasim underachieve or was he turned a bucket load of wickets due to him being too good for the umpires and also being let down by his fielders. Seriously I fail to understand when people say he underachieved without actually understanding what he had to deal with.
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McGrath was better, but I suspect that in all time eleven team wasim will get picked ahead of McGrath because wasim would be the left handed option.
But, to repeat, on a direct comparison McGrath was the better bowler.
Wasim probably had more tricks up his sleeve by he underperformed massively.
But, to repeat, on a direct comparison McGrath was the better bowler.
Wasim probably had more tricks up his sleeve by he underperformed massively.
TheNightWatchman
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I don't really bother much with stats. But Akram's bowling was much much more exciting to watch
Indian_Supporter
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McGrath consistently troubled 2 best batsman in his era - Sachin and Lara which was not the case with Wasim . McGrath was much more consistent and troubled top order batsman more. Wasim was better in cleaning up the lower order batsman.
Whom do I choose? Hmm tough choice. Probably Wasim because of my personal bias and he was more exciting.
Whom do I choose? Hmm tough choice. Probably Wasim because of my personal bias and he was more exciting.
ChachaCricket
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No, he wasn't.
ChachaCricket
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Wasim didn't play Sachin for a decade.
Funny the actual player Lara found Wasim more difficult. Wasim did dismiss him twice, Waqar got him the other three times.
Zaz
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Wasim didnt have the luxury of playing the 2 as much as mcgrath did
Playing for pakistan you werent liable to get fixed n regular home and away series 4/5 match series so you cant count againsr him
sensible-indian-fan
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Wasim played against SRT in 7 tests.
Dismissed him once (1989 series).
Dismissed Lara twice (I am going by your figures) in 7 tests.
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sensible-indian-fan
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To say Wasim only got lower order wickets is harsh.
McGrath was a top order destroyer though. Takes out the team's best player.
Wasim more exciting to watch no doubt.
McGrath is a bowler who has NEVER lost a battle against any batsman.
McGrath was a top order destroyer though. Takes out the team's best player.
Wasim more exciting to watch no doubt.
McGrath is a bowler who has NEVER lost a battle against any batsman.
sensible-indian-fan
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No one said that. They just said Wasim was better at cleaning up lower order which is true.
My bad.
I don't know what's happening to me today.
Indian_Supporter
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People often talk about Wasim's 2 magical deliveries in 92 WC. Make no mistake those were absolutely brilliant deliveries. But according to me McGrath's dismissal of Sachin and Dravid in 99 WC was equally great if not better. SRT and Dravid were better pedigree batsman than Alan Lamb and the other batsman Wasim took. But the way McGrath pawned them is unbelievable.
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ChachaCricket
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You simply can't use that against Wasim when India never played Pakistan for the whole of his prime. It's ridiculous really.
Lara was never able to score a ton against Wasim while he has tons against McGrath - naturally because he played more against Australia therefore had more chances to dismiss him.
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Indian_Supporter
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Lara never able to score century against Wasim?? Didnt he had his highest ODI score of 169 against Pakistan? Nor sure if Wasim was a part of that playing XI though.
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sensible-indian-fan
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I am not using it to make any conclusions.
This is just one small aspect and Wasim didn't play a lot of India in his prime which is true.
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Pakistani fans and their love for delusion
ChachaCricket
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Tests.
169 was against SL. Think you're talking about the 153 and no Wasim wasn't in the lineup but he does have 100s in ODIs.
sensible-indian-fan
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Its not the 2 balls.
Its the context to turn the finals on its head and win it for the team.
That's what gives it more importance than gettng batsmen out after posting 350.
ChachaCricket
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Nah it's just your lack of understanding of cricket and context.
Zaz
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Being primarily a reverse swing bowler n playing most of his games in the subcontinent ur always going to get a larger percentage of lower order wkts than outside subcontinent
The other factor that goes against lefties like wasim is the lbw rule where they have to pitch the ball in line and swing/seam it into the pads to get the right handed batsmen (who are a majority) out
Overall Its much easier getting an lbw or bowled as a right handed fast bowler than a leftie like wasim - u simply have a lot less to do than a leftie who has to make the ball talk to be a success
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Context is for also rans forever looking to justify why they never made it to the winner's podium. Its romantic to some and pitiful to most.
McGrath is a better bowler than Wasim, the numbers say it.
You may of course continue to provide context: bad slip catchers, diabetes, biased umpires, better batsmen that wasim had to contend with. Its a rich area for you to focus - its what losers do.
sensible-indian-fan
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Wasim is the greatest pacer in ODIs.
But for tests...McGrath is simply invincible.
Maybe if Wasim had player for a better team (catching and batting)...he would have done better.
Its very hard to pick amongst these two overall way.
But for tests...McGrath is simply invincible.
Maybe if Wasim had player for a better team (catching and batting)...he would have done better.
Its very hard to pick amongst these two overall way.
ChachaCricket
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The batsmen who played them think otherwise. Of course you know better though because the numbers say it.
Pete Rose
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I would put McGrath ahead of a post 1999 Wasim in odi's if we had world cup final to play
sensible-indian-fan
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Its not an insult to clean up the tail. If we had a Wasim just for cleaning up the tail (and not even for bowling fully), we would have won countless more tests.
As for second point, actually lefties who can swing it (and out) in can get righties out more easily.
Eg - Starc in this WC
That's NOT a disadvanatage. Its a huge advantage.
ChachaCricket
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Viv, Lara, Kallis, Ponting, you name em. Of course our numbers specialists here know better.
sensible-indian-fan
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All comparison is done when both players are not over the hill.
Garner gives very good competition to Wasim in ODIs.
McGrath and Wasim are close enough to each other in skill that if someone rates one of them over the other, you can't say the person lacks understanding of cricket. Unless you think Wasim was so much better than McGrath, which is not the case.
Pete Rose
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I dont whether to laugh or comfort when folks put out stuff like: Of course you know better though because the numbers say it.
As it those darned numbers are at fault.
I would be interested in your views on whether the earth is truly flat and if 9/11 was an inside job.
Entertain me.
Robert
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Lillee had a fabulous record in the few ODIs he played in.
Pete Rose
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I get that. Just pointing out that Wasim fell away quite a bit in the latter part of his career. He was that good that even his 'coasting' was world class.
McGrath never had a dip in form.
ChachaCricket
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Primarily reverse swing bowlers don't average 16, 20, 14 against 1, 2, 3. It's natural he'd have fewer wickets because the ball loses its shine very quickly in the SC. Having a joke of a slip cordon also doesn't help.
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