I presented the evidence of the 1975-76 University of Western Australia speed recordings at the WACA in an earlier thread. The measurements are not just beyond reproach, they used analogue cameras which were twenty times more accurate than current speed measurements. That's why modern measurements are correct to one decimal place while theirs were to two decimal places.
-
Contact the PP Team
[VIDEOS] Bazball cannot disguise Test cricket's weakest era
- Thread starter Junaids
- Start date
Actually it was 70MPH originally ... only after speed guns began to accurately measure fast bowlerrs to be predominantly bowling in the 80-90 mph range that Larwoods speeds were retroactively upgraded ... Welcome to the madness that is Crickets history. The most absurd parochial and hawkishly protective of anything old.
Please bump that thread and tag me in there thanks.
Unlike today, in the 1970s we could send people to the Moon and back and fly supersonic from London to New York. You think we couldn't measure speeds?
If you think that the speed measurements from Perth in 1976 were inaccurate, then you're showcasing your ignorance.
In fact, there's every reason to believe the Aeronautical College of New Zealand speed measurements of Tyson and Statham in 1955, where they reached 143 and 140 respectively off a three pace run-up.
History did not begin this century. Fast bowlers have been fast since Larwood.
I've been looking all day - I'm guessing it's no longer up, but the moderators will know.
NishanKonar
Local Club Star
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2018
- Runs
- 1,935
U did not need helmet thigh gaurds in an era when the fastest bowler is bowling at the same pace as Bhuvi & Hasan Ali
The reason helmet & thigh gaurd came into existence in the 70s is bcoz that was the era when fast bowlers were bowling actually fast - like 140 kph & above. Thats why batters started looking for protective gears
NishanKonar
Local Club Star
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2018
- Runs
- 1,935
We can send people to the moon today as well. We dont bcoz nobody found a good reason to do so. There is literally nothing humans can do on the moon. Sending people to the moon is more of high prestige thing but with zero utility. That's why the US stopped sending after 1972
Same with supersonic Concordes. Nobody wants to pay such astronomical fares for such flights. Today's fighter jets are faster than any airplane bcoz in air force such speed still matters
sweep_shot
T20I Captain
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2016
- Runs
- 40,658
Truth be told, only 3 teams take Test cricket seriously nowadays. India, Australia, and England.
South Africa don't seem to care as we have seen in recent SA-NZ series (their players picked T20 league over Test).
NZ declined. They couldn't even win a series in Bangladesh. They also almost lost the 2nd Test against a depleted South Africa side.
Pakistan, Sri Lanka, and Windies are currently not great in Test format. Other teams are minnows.
Even England had to invent a gimmick like Bazball to perform. But, it seems like that gimmick is losing the steam.
There is far less competition now. This is the weakest Test era of all time.
South Africa don't seem to care as we have seen in recent SA-NZ series (their players picked T20 league over Test).
NZ declined. They couldn't even win a series in Bangladesh. They also almost lost the 2nd Test against a depleted South Africa side.
Pakistan, Sri Lanka, and Windies are currently not great in Test format. Other teams are minnows.
Even England had to invent a gimmick like Bazball to perform. But, it seems like that gimmick is losing the steam.
There is far less competition now. This is the weakest Test era of all time.
Just shows that modern fans have matured along with the sports becoming more professional. Your ''fathers and elderly uncles'' perhaps did not have the emotional maturity to deal with cricket as a sport and allowed it to ruin the day and perceive a sporting loss as stigma, which would be funny to everyone today.
NishanKonar
Local Club Star
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2018
- Runs
- 1,935
University of Western Australia is the most fraud university. Allowed blatant chuckers like Murali , Ajmal, Shoaib Akhtar get away with their dodgy actions before that Cardiff based university brought an end to that nonsense in 2014 !
DeadlyVenom
Senior Test Player
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2010
- Runs
- 26,024
- Post of the Week
- 1
No not really but thanks once again for a really off the mark take.
It's quite normal behaviour for modern fans of every sport.
You can ask any fan of the biggest sports in the world whether a loss is a big deal and see what they say. Go ahead and try it with a fan of any major sports league, or outside a football stadium,come back to me with your results.
I suppose its difficult for you to understand because your fathers and uncles didnt have TVs and you haven't really been surrounded by sporting culture.
NishanKonar
Local Club Star
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2018
- Runs
- 1,935
Cricket till the 60s was downright amateurish & heavily loaded with mythology. Much like tennis / golf. Bcoz it was very upper class sport played by elites at their fancy clubs - just like tennis & golf
cricket became a serious sport only from the 70s onwards
sweep_shot
T20I Captain
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2016
- Runs
- 40,658
Murali wasn't a chucker though. Why did ICC allow him to play that long then? He took 800 Test wickets.
If Murali was a chucker, so was Harbhajan.
NishanKonar
Local Club Star
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2018
- Runs
- 1,935
Most people did not have tv & radio in the 60s & 70s
This is why all cricketing stories from that era have become so heavily mythologized bcoz most people never saw them play. So you can get away saying anything
I grew up hearing about stories of that legendary Pakistan vs West Indies test series of 1987 which ended 1-1. Few years back I actually saw footage from that series. The cricket in display was so bang average - like they were playing some county cricket
DeadlyVenom
Senior Test Player
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2010
- Runs
- 26,024
- Post of the Week
- 1
Do you think many modern batsmen could survive being peppered by bouncers with no protection?
I agree sometimes that people can exaggerate the past but I feel like you are going the other way and being overly critical.
WI win was total brilliance if Shamar Joseph. Remains to be seen if he can pass the tests of time but Australia losing to him doesn't make them a bad side. They are still WTC holders.
I expect them to win in SA now.
They are the best test team currently and will remain so till 3 main pacers and Lyon play together.
India and England are neck and neck.
Agree on the point that South Africa are considerably weaker than their 90s or early 2010s.
Overall
Australia, England, NZ and India are teams which are stronger than most part of their history.
WI,Pak are weaker while SA are just there and there about.
I expect them to win in SA now.
They are the best test team currently and will remain so till 3 main pacers and Lyon play together.
India and England are neck and neck.
Agree on the point that South Africa are considerably weaker than their 90s or early 2010s.
Overall
Australia, England, NZ and India are teams which are stronger than most part of their history.
WI,Pak are weaker while SA are just there and there about.
NishanKonar
Local Club Star
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2018
- Runs
- 1,935
Bcoz till 2011 WC the chucking protocols were set by University of Western Australia. It was in 2012 that ICC realised that there are some serious discrepancies in the testing process which might allow chuckers to modify their actions during testing & get away
After that realization, ICC ended the contract with UWA & established new testing procedures with Cardiff based university. Thats was where Ajmal, Narine , Hafeez, Senanayake got exposed. Murali luckily had retired - else he wud have got exposed as well
Again, you're talking about your own society.
In the UK, cricket was ahead of football as the working man's game until the 1960's. Bowlers like Trueman and Larwood came from mining backgrounds. Meanwhile Barbados legends like the Knights Weekes, Walcott, Warrell, Hunte and Hall weren't even allowed to join white cricket clubs in the colonial era West Indies.
DeadlyVenom
Senior Test Player
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2010
- Runs
- 26,024
- Post of the Week
- 1
Perhaps - but my point that the poster was replying to was regarding the prestige and emotional attachment to test match cricket among fans rather than the quality.
That to me has very obviously declined irrespective of the quality of the product.
NishanKonar
Local Club Star
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2018
- Runs
- 1,935
As log as those bouncers are 80-85 mph on slow flat tracks that were prevalent during Bradman's era. Terms like featherbed , shirtfront were coined during Bradman's era bcoz the pitches were ridiculously slow & flat
Not really. Sporting culture means playing sports, taking win and loss in your stride and strive for excellence.
It does not mean perceiving sporting loss as a stigma that ruins your day. Such behavior can only come from emotionally stunted, obsessively invested people who do not have much else going in their lives. Now I am not saying your ''fathers and elderly uncles'' were that kind, it's your words alone.
Once again you are assuming you too much about my father (notice singular), and uncles for no reason. Perhaps I touched a raw nerve and you are lashing out like the way you did calling Indians paj***s the other day knowing that this forum itself bans the other four letter word reserved for pakistanis. I hope you can have a sensible discussion without a meltdown.
God bless.
NishanKonar
Local Club Star
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2018
- Runs
- 1,935
Thats the point. Top cricketers like Worrel, Weekes were not allowed to join white man's clubs which allowed low skilled " English gentlemen" to dominate the game
Just like tennis was played by rich folks on their exclusive country clubs till the 60s which prevented better players from playing the game. Once the Open era started the game changed dramatically in the 70s
Players like Larwood & Trueman were exceptions not the norm
You have completely missed my point here.
My point is that there was very advanced speed technology in the 1970s and earlier.
The WACA measurements were made using the 1970 Photo-Sonics ActionMaster camera which is still used today when speed measurement needs to be sensitive enough to record 500 frames per second. In contrast, broadcast technology today uses a frame speed of 20 frames per second, so it is 25 times less precise.
I find it funny, at the age of 54, that people think that old codgers like me can't understand that modern is always better.
This whole thread exists because we are palpably in an era of very low quality in Test cricket. I've just watched Aamer Jamal repeatedly dismiss the Aussies by bowling in the mid-130's. Whereas in 99-00 when Waqar Younis' true age was probably around 34, he was dropped for the First and Third Tests in Australia because his bowling was down around 10-15K from his heyday and was measured between 133 and 138 for the whole of the Second Test.
Bhaijaan, during Bradman's time only Aus & Eng used to play test cricket seriously. Later, WI got added in the list.
So there was never a period in history when there were multiple good test sides together
NishanKonar
Local Club Star
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2018
- Runs
- 1,935
I seriously doubt the etchnology used for space missions was being used for measuring Jeff thomspons pace
And u dont need speed guns. Just watch footage of Thompson, Holding, Lillee. Nobody with sane mind or good eyes will claim they were bowling quicker than Starc, Brett Lee , Shoaib Akhtar, Wood,
Lillee Thompson Holding wud be same pace as Cummins , Bumrah , Rabada.
Again, you're showing your lack of knowledge about the history of cricket.
Until the early 1960's, English cricket was divided into Gentlemen (amateurs) and Players (professionals). Typically a match would feature 4 Gentlemen between the two sides, who shared a very elegant dressing room with servants, and 18 Players in two decrepit changing rooms.
As for the West Indies, by the time Frank Worrell led the 1960-61 tour of Australia there were no white players in the team - even Gerry Alexander was mixed race - but still the players weren't eligible to join the swankiest cricket clubs in Bridgetown, Georgetown, Kingston and Port of Spain.
You should try reading about the history of cricket - it's actually fascinating.
DeadlyVenom
Senior Test Player
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2010
- Runs
- 26,024
- Post of the Week
- 1
Please accept the challenge of conversing with a fan from a major sporting league before having a serious discussion because you clearly have no clue what you are talking about.
We can have a sensible discussion at that point. But currently you are unable to understand from a cultural perspective and perhaps a socio economic one.
None of us have ever seen colour footage of Lillee before his spinal fractures.
But yes, do watch the footage. Thomson was clearly not slower than anybody in history, ever. He was measured at over 160.0 repeatedly.
And post-injury Lillee in 75-76 was measured in the 150s, while Roberts was measured at 159. Using technology of superior accuracy to what is used today.
NishanKonar
Local Club Star
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2018
- Runs
- 1,935
Ajit Agarkar bowled out Australia in that 2003 Adelaide test bowling in the mid 130s.
Kapil Dev took 25 wickets in that 1992 series in Australia bowling at 125 kph
Angus Fraser destroyed Australia at MCG in 1990 bowling at 135 kph
Dean Headley won England the 1998 MCG test bowling in the 130s
But when Aamir Jamal does it in 2023 its boz test cricket is moving backwards !
NishanKonar
Local Club Star
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2018
- Runs
- 1,935
There is footage from 1971 Aus vs Rest of World series. Footage from 1975 World Cup & Ashes. Footage from 1972 Ashes. Before those injuries
None of them suggest Lillee bowling at 160 kph
All this stuff is mythology created by 50-60 year old to fool gullible young folks
I completely disagree. That is the amateur, Corinthian attitude to sport, for Gentlemen who are not reliant on it to feed their families.
It's important for fans to take victory and defeat in good grace. But for players to achieve excellence they have to train harder than their peers and to hate losing with every sinew of their body.
I find it strange that I have been less harsh in this thread on India than most other countries - I compared Pakistan to 1990s Zimbabwe - yet Indian posters are taking offence at my points.
The bottom line is that all current Test sides have lost far too many series for me to respect or admire them. Australia and India are a bit less rubbish than the other current Test teams, but they are still hopelessly tainted by their unacceptable number of defeats.
That's very nice.
I never said he was as fast as Thommo.
But I know for a fact that Photo-Sonics cameras recorded Lillee at 148.54 in the 1975-76 WACA Test when he had a cold, and at 154.8 a few months later. Those speeds are not up for discussion or negotiation - they are matters of proven fact.
When did you last see those speeds in a Test? In England in 1976, three different West Indians in a single Test were measured at 150 or faster - and one of them was Wayne Daniel!
NishanKonar
Local Club Star
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2018
- Runs
- 1,935
During 1999 World Cup Geoff Allot was clocked at 145 kph. And he was military medium pace bowler. During 1997 India South Africa series Lance Klusener was clocked at 154 kph - and he was also military medium pace
Tells u credibility of speed guns of that era
NishanKonar
Local Club Star
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2018
- Runs
- 1,935
Good thing is in the 90s cricket was widely broadcast across the world - else some people wud have told us mythologies like Agarkar , Angus Fraser , Dean HEadley were scary speed monsters who terrorized batters during their era !
James
World Star
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2006
- Runs
- 50,779
- Post of the Week
- 2
It is a bit gimmicky, but it remains to be seen whether they can evolve it into a more mature form “or” if we’ve already seen the best of it.
One thing I would say is whilst it’s perfectly true and reasonable to say that this era of English players will be judged on their performances against Australia, and in India, Bazball only started 20 months ago, and England might not be ready to beat these sorts of teams yet who have a more established way of playing and are technically superior. In cricketing terms, as a playing identity Bazball is still a new concept.
Never forget the disastrous run of 1 win in 17 Tests, and where England were building from. Absolute rock bottom. Getting back to being an absolutely top Test team, like England were 12 years ago or so, is going to take time.
Vikram1989
First Class Player
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2022
- Runs
- 3,156
Here in Scg visitors pavilion ,there are two entryways created for visting eng teams.One entry was for the rich and other u know for whom.so it's utter nonsense that any decent candidate was selected on his talent in great old days.
NishanKonar
Local Club Star
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2018
- Runs
- 1,935
Reason teams lose more often is bcoz the sport is more competitve
Germany lost to Korea in 2018 WC & Japan in 2022 WC. France lost to Tunisia in 2022 WC. Morocoo beat Spain & Portugal
All these results wud be unthinkable in the 80s & 90s. But today across the world football standards have increased. So Asian & African teams beating European teams is no big deal
Mate it's his cope mechanism for Pakistan being crap at Test cricket. Let's not distort the fantasy by putting some facts.
I hate to rain on your parade, but to tackle your precise points about this great improvement in world sporting standards.
1. West Germany lost 2-1 to Algeria at the 1982 FIFA World Cup.
2. Portugal lost 3-0 to Morocco at the 1986 FIFA World Cup.
3. Tunisia beat Mexico 3-1 at the 1978 FIFA World Cup.
4. Cameroon was eliminated unbeaten from the 1982 World Cup, after drawing with the eventual champions Italy, and with Poland who came third.
These results were never unthinkable. You just don't know your history.
NishanKonar
Local Club Star
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2018
- Runs
- 1,935
Those results were seen as huge upsets in the 80s & 90s. Losing to African & Asian teams were seen as big embarrassment
Those days most teams loved Asian or African team in their groups as it wud have meant an easy 3 points. Now no more. Thats bcoz global standards have improved a lot
No, they weren't.
1986 was only the second time Portugal had ever been to the World Cup. Believe me, Morocco had at least tbe status that they did.
As for Algeria, they had two world class players in Lakhdar Belloumi, who after Maradona and Platini was the world's third best playmaker, and the winger Rabah Madjer who actually won the 1987 Champions League Final for Porto single-handedly against ..........Bayern Munich.
This is why there was absolutely no surprise in 1990 when Cameroon beat the reigning champions Argentina and Colombia and Romania before going out in extra time in the Quarter Final to England. We all knew Roger Milla and Emmanuel Kunde from the 1982 unbeaten run in the Group of Death against Italy, Poland and Peru.
The standards of the 5th to 15th best teams in Asia and Africa has improved. But to be honest, the best teams in both continents were at least as close to the top world teams in the 1980s and 1990s as they are now.
Cameroon in 1990 and Nigeria in 1994 were teams of the highest quality who were extremely unlucky to go out in extra time to the eventual finalists.
It's like cricket - you think you are living in a golden age, but actually you aren't.
WengerOut
First Class Captain
- Joined
- Nov 11, 2017
- Runs
- 4,809
You can have Norway with Haaland and Odegard, but any top nation getting beaten by them is an upset and a surprise. Was the same with Cameroon and Algeria
shortbread
First Class Player
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2011
- Runs
- 2,754
Just looking at the calibre and fitness of modern players, puts them in leagues above their precursors. The standards of fielding and catches taken. Then there's the ability of modern batsmen to play at a tempo that's unimaginable even a decade ago. Look at how these guys score boundaries at will or play 360 all round the ground. I have never seen English bowlers of the class of Anderson, Broad, Wood, Archer etc... This English test team will thrash any English test team before it, only the Strauss, Cook, Pietersen team might provide some fight. I can see this English team taking the fight to Waugh's aussies. There's no way they'll let the likes of McGrath dictate line and length, or stay back at the crease being scared of Warne. What the current English team lack is patience and application, in terms of ability they're simply unmatched.
At the same time there are teams that have regressed and the likes of Pakistan is a severe case. The batting is still solid with the likes of Babar, Rizwan, Shaan etc.... but the bowling decline has been stunning. Afridi is the only one of quality and he's been overworked and seems physically tired. The rest of the bowlers will not make it to any of the top test teams' playing 11. I don't see how this Pakistan attack takes 20 wickets in a test anywhere! Another one is Sri Lanka, today's team is a pale shadow of the ones with champion names like Jayasuriya, Ranatunga, Murali, De Silva, Sangakkara, Jayawardene, Vaas etc..
It's a tale of two cities in reality, the top sides keep getting better, creating a bigger gulf between the teams that have been left behind. For the foreseeable future this gap will only continue to grow.
At the same time there are teams that have regressed and the likes of Pakistan is a severe case. The batting is still solid with the likes of Babar, Rizwan, Shaan etc.... but the bowling decline has been stunning. Afridi is the only one of quality and he's been overworked and seems physically tired. The rest of the bowlers will not make it to any of the top test teams' playing 11. I don't see how this Pakistan attack takes 20 wickets in a test anywhere! Another one is Sri Lanka, today's team is a pale shadow of the ones with champion names like Jayasuriya, Ranatunga, Murali, De Silva, Sangakkara, Jayawardene, Vaas etc..
It's a tale of two cities in reality, the top sides keep getting better, creating a bigger gulf between the teams that have been left behind. For the foreseeable future this gap will only continue to grow.
You might have been surprised, but I wasn't.
The record of African teams at the World Cup, 1978-1990
Tunisia P3 W1 D1 L1
Algeria P3 W2 D0 L1
Cameroon P 3 W0 D3 L0
Algeria P3 W0 D1 L2 (Brazil and Yugoslavia)
Morocco P4 W1 D2 L1 (in the last minute)
Cameroon P5 W3 D0 L2 (in extra time)
Total African record 1978-1990 at the World Cup:
P21 Won 7 Drew 7 Lost 7
They lost at their home and in India. They aren't true number 1. Wtc one final is a rubbish concept. That too in England every time.
Anyway this series at the end of the year will decide who is better.
Australia has zero series wins in England in the last 2 wtc cycles.
1 draw away and 1 win at home
0 wins vs india home and away
1 win in Pakistan and 1 at home or 2 actually
Did they win in Lanka last time? Draw I believe 1-1 and won at home.
Haven't played SA away and haven't played nz away.
1 draw away and 1 win at home
0 wins vs india home and away
1 win in Pakistan and 1 at home or 2 actually
Did they win in Lanka last time? Draw I believe 1-1 and won at home.
Haven't played SA away and haven't played nz away.
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2011
- Runs
- 27,223
- Post of the Week
- 3
Good old days argument, lol.
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2011
- Runs
- 27,223
- Post of the Week
- 3
Aus has lost 4 back to back test series against India. Failed to win in Eng and SL.
shortbread
First Class Player
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2011
- Runs
- 2,754
To be fair Lyon getting injured changed Australia's fortunes in that Ashes.
greatest
Local Club Regular
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2012
- Runs
- 1,616
Plus in those days batters used a very light bat. One really had to have good strength, hand eye coordination and master hitting the sweet spot of the bat to time the ball consistently.
NishanKonar
Local Club Star
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2018
- Runs
- 1,935
Anybody who watched 1990 WC wud vouch for the fact that Cameroon was surprise package of the World Cup who exceeded all expectations. Nobody in their wildest dreams expected Cameroon to do anything special. And nobody knew about Roger Milla before the 1990 WC except for hardcore football fans
You know most people here did not watch 1990 World Cup live - so you just invent fictions to fool gullible folks out here knowing they will believe whatever you say. Just like all the fictions you tell about past cricketers
CricketCartoons
Senior T20I Player
- Joined
- Mar 5, 2014
- Runs
- 17,584
Those days were something else, which modern generation can never imagine. When people used to swim through crocodile infested waters daily to go to school, and read under the moonlight.
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2011
- Runs
- 27,223
- Post of the Week
- 3
Test cricket is the test of depth and backup as well. They lost to India having lots of new players in their home.
Aus has been a very good team but is comfortably behind India by losing 2 home and 2 away series against India.
There was only one team in this period which started with a shot of winning no matter where the series was taking place. That team was India due to having well well-balanced ATG bowling unit for all conditions.
Having said that, India won't be able to replicate it going forward due to the transition, and also it's rare to beat Aus back-to-back 4 test series. I don't recall when it happened in the past. Even weak Aus is hard to beat.
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2011
- Runs
- 27,223
- Post of the Week
- 3
Every generation has its challenges.
As long as we are talking about serious professional cricket starting with 70s, top players in every era were special. By top, I meant truly top by being the top 3 bowlers or top 3 batsmen. Yes, some of them may take time to adjust if transplanted to a different era, but it's unfair because you learn your game based on your era.
Steyn/Bumrah/Kohli/Smith will be top-class in any era.
McGrath/Wasim/SRT/Lara will be top-class in any era
Marshall/IK/Gavaskar/Viv will be top-class in any era.
Their relative positions may vary slightly here and there but they will be among the top players in any era.
As long as we are talking about serious professional cricket starting with 70s, top players in every era were special. By top, I meant truly top by being the top 3 bowlers or top 3 batsmen. Yes, some of them may take time to adjust if transplanted to a different era, but it's unfair because you learn your game based on your era.
Steyn/Bumrah/Kohli/Smith will be top-class in any era.
McGrath/Wasim/SRT/Lara will be top-class in any era
Marshall/IK/Gavaskar/Viv will be top-class in any era.
Their relative positions may vary slightly here and there but they will be among the top players in any era.
James
World Star
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2006
- Runs
- 50,779
- Post of the Week
- 2
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2011
- Runs
- 27,223
- Post of the Week
- 3
That's amazing given many other teams have won series in Eng in the last 22 years.*In the last 22 years
It seems Eng lifts their game against Aus. Also, having a longer series helps otherwise some visiting team may sneak a win and win a series.
Nikhil_cric
Senior Test Player
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2011
- Runs
- 29,587
No they couldn't. It's laughable to even suggest that. Zimbabwe have won a grand total of 1 Test away from home against a Top 8 side in their entire Test history.
That was against Pakistan in 1998 at Peshawar. Even outside of the Big 3, even teams like West indies have won Test matches in England, UAE and Australia in the last decade.
It's not a "slight" exaggeration.
Statpadder Inc
Local Club Regular
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2023
- Runs
- 1,560
@Junaids, you correctly attack India for their poor away record but fail to mention the fact that aus have lost 4 series in a row to India, and havent won a series in ind, sl, sa, eng and bang
Statpadder Inc
Local Club Regular
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2023
- Runs
- 1,560
The Zimbabwe was a great team exaggeration by the nostalgia merchants really gets on my nerves, they were never good
jnaveen1980
T20I Captain
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2016
- Runs
- 41,916
With bouncer restriction, neutral umpire, noball watch every ball, DRS whole thing will be different these days. Windies used to do a lot of overstepping and getting away. There was this famous test when India bowled out for 80 chasing 120. Many of the wickets Windies took were of giant noballs.
DeadlyVenom
Senior Test Player
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2010
- Runs
- 26,024
- Post of the Week
- 1
Are you really saying the Zimbabwe of old couldnt go toe to toe with the current Windies, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Pakistan and perhaps South Africa?
Really? I think they would be ok in this era.
Nikhil_cric
Senior Test Player
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2011
- Runs
- 29,587
Not in Test cricket. They had the Flower brothers, Streak and then there was a lot of filler guys .
They were a genuine banana skin team in ODI's between 1996/97 and 2000/01 and could upset a lot of teams but in Test cricket, they were a very poor Test side.
WengerOut
First Class Captain
- Joined
- Nov 11, 2017
- Runs
- 4,809
Zimbabwe was basically the Bangladesh of today. In tests, there could be a surprise once in a while. In LOIs, maybe better but still not toe to toe..
Yea ofcourse. I just meant in terms of last wtc's.*In the last 22 years
Nikhil_cric
Senior Test Player
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2011
- Runs
- 29,587
Even Grant Flower averaged just 30 in Test cricket. I'll say Andy Flower(averaging 50) and Heath Streak averaging ~27 in Test cricket till 2003 were damn good for a minnow side and would make a lot of international sides
Rest were all County level cricketers at best. Olonga averaged 38 , worse than Venkatesh Prasad in that era. Paul Strang averaged 36 odd which was strictly average. Pommie was decent but he was plagued by injuries and barely represented ZIM.
NishanKonar
Local Club Star
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2018
- Runs
- 1,935
Let me put it this way
Compare the 2023 team vs 1993 teams
Australia- 2023 was superior
England - 2023 vastly superior
India - 2023 vastly superior
Pakistan - 1993 team slightly better
South Africa - equal
Sri Lanka - equal
West Indies - 1993 vastly superior
New Zealand - 2023 superior
In essence u have 2 teams almost equal, 4 teams were superior & 2 teams fallen behind - Pakistan & West Indies
Net net today's teams are superior
People often forget how poor Sri Lanka ( before 1996 WC) , England & New Zealand were in the 90s. New Zealand went thru such a rough phase in the 90s that they sacked all seniors & appointed a debutant Lee Germon as captain for his debut game. Sri Lanka were seen as minnows away from home ( much like Bangladesh ). England lost every Ashes so badly that questions arose over future of English cricket
2 teams - West Indies & Pakistan have definitely moved backwards. More so in West Indies. While Pakistani fans remember 90s with a rose tinted glasses - in real life they lost home test series against Sri Lanka, Australia, England, South Africa & even Zimbabwe
Compare the 2023 team vs 1993 teams
Australia- 2023 was superior
England - 2023 vastly superior
India - 2023 vastly superior
Pakistan - 1993 team slightly better
South Africa - equal
Sri Lanka - equal
West Indies - 1993 vastly superior
New Zealand - 2023 superior
In essence u have 2 teams almost equal, 4 teams were superior & 2 teams fallen behind - Pakistan & West Indies
Net net today's teams are superior
People often forget how poor Sri Lanka ( before 1996 WC) , England & New Zealand were in the 90s. New Zealand went thru such a rough phase in the 90s that they sacked all seniors & appointed a debutant Lee Germon as captain for his debut game. Sri Lanka were seen as minnows away from home ( much like Bangladesh ). England lost every Ashes so badly that questions arose over future of English cricket
2 teams - West Indies & Pakistan have definitely moved backwards. More so in West Indies. While Pakistani fans remember 90s with a rose tinted glasses - in real life they lost home test series against Sri Lanka, Australia, England, South Africa & even Zimbabwe
jnaveen1980
T20I Captain
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2016
- Runs
- 41,916
The team that had Kane, Ross, Boult, Southee together considered ATG NZ side. India never had a fast bowling unit like this ever also never had more potent spin all rounders ever. Obviously one of the best bowling unit. Steve Smith is considered as an ATG test batsman. THeir tri fast bowlers are also considered the ATG Australian pace bowling unit. Add Lyon too with 500 plus wickets. England was never considered a force until Bazball. South Africa is the only team due to quota system has lost some resources. Even now they can put together a great team if they really want. As far as Windies goes it has been on steady decline since the days of Lara. Chanderpaul holds the record for being part of the maximum test losses in history. 77 tests. Third highest Lara 66 tests. Alzaari joseph, Kemar Joseph would have been a great Windies bowler in any other era. So would have been Joffra Archer. OTher teams have dropped their standard. That is the case for every era. Some team or the other was always crap. Atleast current teams go after results.
sweep_shot
T20I Captain
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2016
- Runs
- 40,658
Sri Lanka were far better in the 90's. So were South Africa.
I also believe NZ were better in 1993.
James
World Star
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2006
- Runs
- 50,779
- Post of the Week
- 2
England I think drew their first Test series 0-0 in Zimbabwe in the 90s by messing up their sums in a run chase and running out of available overs to get 1 more run. It was pretty much the most incompetent and embarrassing result in English cricket history at that point. Until the next hugely incompetent and embarrassing result of course — because there have been a fair few
sweep_shot
T20I Captain
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2016
- Runs
- 40,658
Zimbabwe drew many games. They were competitive.
shortbread
First Class Player
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2011
- Runs
- 2,754
NZ's current team is the best they have, not just Tests, but it's an all format squad. In Williamson they have a batting GOAT, one of the most attacking top order batsmen, a brilliant all rounded pace attack, some exceptional upcoming youngsters, good spinners...... by far the best NZ cricket team.
shortbread
First Class Player
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2011
- Runs
- 2,754
Zimbabwe back then is more akin to today's Afghanistan, they can spring a surprise or two especially against the laggard sides, but will lose most games albeit never without a fight.
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2011
- Runs
- 27,223
- Post of the Week
- 3
Zim had W/L 0.1 in entire decade of 90s with 3 test wins.
NZ was a poor team in 90s with W/L of 0.5
NZ was a poor team in 90s with W/L of 0.5
sweep_shot
T20I Captain
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2016
- Runs
- 40,658
What about those draws?
Zimbabwe were quite competitive back then.
W/Ls in those days aren't same as today's fragile W/Ls.
NishanKonar
Local Club Star
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2018
- Runs
- 1,935
No they were not. Sri Lanka in 1994 created a dubious record where they got whitewashed by innings defeats in all 3 tests against India. That was how poor they were. They were mostly invited for one off tests by SENAW nations bcoz they were seen as minnows in test cricket. Their first full test series in England was in 2001 and in Australia was in 1995 and in West Indies was in 1997. Before that it was all one-off tests
South Africa in the 90s for all the hype failed to beat a bang average England team in England , never won a series against Australia at home or away. They bullied teams like India & Pakistan on fast bouncy pitches
New Zealand in the 90s was slightly better than Zimbabwe. When New Zealand beat England in England in 1999 - it was seen as one of lowest points in English cricket
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2011
- Runs
- 27,223
- Post of the Week
- 3
Draw means you did not win and you did not lose. It has no impact on inflating or deflating your W/L ratio.
If you have a W/L of 0.1 in any era, it's certified minnow level.
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2011
- Runs
- 27,223
- Post of the Week
- 3
NZ best team without any doubt is their recent team. It's not even close.
Similar threads
- Poll
