[VIDEOS] Imam-ul-Haq - Essential or a liability in ODIs?

[Mamoon]

In 2017, his Dot ball % was at 52.6

In 2023, his dot ball % is at 51.8

In between these 6 years, he’s only had a dot ball % below 47 once.

Where’s the improvement?

Imam from his debut to 2021:

Average 49, SR 80

Imam since his 1 Jan 2022:

Average 51, SR 91

He has been phenomenal in the last two years, pretty much the ideal opener in the format. There is no point in adding asterisks to everything he does and making assumptions that he will not do well in the 2023 World Cup because he didn’t do great in the 2019 World Cup.

He is a much improved player now than he was 4 years back.

You can’t drop an ODI opener with such stats and who has shown such improvement. That is absolute bonkers.

I know that as per some Pakistani fans, you are only a good and “impactful” player if you have 0 individual milestones under your belt, play only 10 balls, have a SR of 300+ during those 10 balls and get out playing reverse scoops. You will be viewed as a selfless player.

However, if you are averaging 50+ and have a SR of 90+, scoring hundreds and helping your team post and chase big totals, you will be viewed as a selfish player. Pakistani fans are in a world of their own.

Imam is a top ODI opener and we are very lucky to have someone like him after all the dross that we have had to endure for years and years.

 

[Mamoon]

If you replaced Imam with Rizwan and ODI's with t20's, every point made here applies there too.

The common factor is that there are no Lance Kluseners sitting in domestics being overlooked.

With a dearth of strong power hitters Pakistan are very lucky to possess two high averaging opening batsman for white ball cricket. They may be more pedestrian than their counterparts but still win games through frankly unbelievable consistency.

The issue with Babar and Rizwan opening combo in T20Is is that they both bat at the same pace. There is value in having a slogger opening the innings in T20Is because even if he lasts for 10-15 balls and gives you a flier, you will be in a strong position to post or chase a big total.

Babar and Rizwan are fine at what they do but I would slip them up by demoting Babar to 3 and having Fakhar open the innings and go hard from ball one.

Fakhar on paper had all the attributes to be a destructive opener in T20Is but for some reason, he has been very conservative in the format. Maybe it’s the fear of getting out cheaply and losing his place.

A change in role and assurance that he will be judged by his SR not average can help get the best out of Fakhar as a T20I opener.

Pakistan would be in a better shape if Rizwan and Babar continue to do what they do #2 and #3 but you have Fakhar to offset them at #1 by going all guns blazing from the word go.

If he can get those 15 ball 30s and the odd 70+ in 30, he would do a world of good for Pakistan and right now, he is far more equipped to do that job compared to the likes of Haris and Saim who have potential but are severely undercooked.

 

[Rana]

In a pressure world cup match he will get 35 from 65 balls and then get out

Majority of our batters are FTB minnow bashers.

Probably

That’s why I recon we need Harris Sohail and Imad in the side. Possibly Amir too. You need your toughest players (mentally) for a world cup

 

[Rana]

“Babar and Rizwan are fine at what they do but I would slip them up by demoting Babar to 3 and having Fakhar open the innings and go hard from ball one.“
[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION]

I’ve come to the slow realisation that even with Fakhar opening the innings in T20 there is no guarantee that he will go hard from ball one. However out of the three (Fakhar/Babar/Rizwan) I would definitely open with Fakhar because he is the one player who I have no problem with taking his time to get set at the crease because of the damage he can inflict on the opposition once set. Babar and Rizwan are inconsequential no matter how well they play. They can’t hit sixes at a less than ‘ten balls per six’ rate unlike Fakhar. And this is important because hitting sixes is an essential skill in T20 cricket due to the fact that they are the momentum changers for the batting innings.

 

[Mamoon]

“Babar and Rizwan are fine at what they do but I would slip them up by demoting Babar to 3 and having Fakhar open the innings and go hard from ball one.“

[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION]

I’ve come to the slow realisation that even with Fakhar opening the innings in T20 there is no guarantee that he will go hard from ball one. However out of the three (Fakhar/Babar/Rizwan) I would definitely open with Fakhar because he is the one player who I have no problem with taking his time to get set at the crease because of the damage he can inflict on the opposition once set. Babar and Rizwan are inconsequential no matter how well they play. They can’t hit sixes at a less than ‘ten balls per six’ rate unlike Fakhar. And this is important because hitting sixes is an essential skill in T20 cricket due to the fact that they are the momentum changers for the batting innings.

Fakhar, even if he bats slow can have a period in his innings where he can bat at a SR of 200+ for 15-20 balls and make up for his slow start. I totally agree with this.

However, he has the ability to tee off from ball one. He can cause the same level of destruction that the likes of Buttler, Bairstow, Roy, Hales etc. do. All he needs is a change in mindset and it is the job of the team management to give him this confidence.

Unfortunately, the Babar and Rizwan combo is not going anywhere at least until Babar remains the captain.

 

[Sher Khan]

Fakhar, even if he bats slow can have a period in his innings where he can bat at a SR of 200+ for 15-20 balls and make up for his slow start. I totally agree with this.

However, he has the ability to tee off from ball one. He can cause the same level of destruction that the likes of Buttler, Bairstow, Roy, Hales etc. do. All he needs is a change in mindset and it is the job of the team management to give him this confidence.

Unfortunately, the Babar and Rizwan combo is not going anywhere at least until Babar remains the captain.

I think the prime reason, Fakhar doesn't tee off from ball one is because he knows we have an unreliable middle order. You can't compare him with English openers, because England have the likes of Stokes, Buttler etc. Waiting in the lower positions to do the damage control.

I don't think him teeing off early will have a good impact on matches. I'd rather we get 300 plus in ODIS rather than be 100/7 in 13 overs.

 

[JibranAnsari]

In 2017, his Dot ball % was at 52.6

In 2023, his dot ball % is at 51.8

In between these 6 years, he’s only had a dot ball % below 47 once.

Where’s the improvement?

Whats the usual dot ball percentage for openers?

Look at the dot ball percentages of rohit sharma , david warner , Aaron finch ,fakhar zaman etc.

Hint: imam has a lower dot ball percentage.

 

[Hextro]

Imam needs to be able to bat at an SR of over 100-110 on really flat surfaces if he's to become truly essential. On a tough batting pitch his low SR won't badly affect the team but when we have to really attack the opposition on a good pitch is when Imam in the past has become a liability.

I can tell Imam has worked on his game and has become more aggressive. In the past, I've seen him regularly score 1 or 2 runs off the first 10-20 balls he faced, now he's making more of an effort to find gaps and look for quick singles to get off strike.

It might be that Imam knows that there are plenty of players vying for his opening spot so he is forced to add new elements to his game.

I hope he can keep this up and not go into a shell once again.

 

[Hextro]

Whats the usual dot ball percentage for openers?

Look at the dot ball percentages of rohit sharma , david warner , Aaron finch ,fakhar zaman etc.

Hint: imam has a lower dot ball percentage.

Another thing that needs to be considered is boundary percentage.

In the last 2 years, he's hitting a boundary after every 11.6 balls. Compare that to his pre-2022 stats where he hit a boundary after every 14.2 balls.

 

[Amjid Javed]

Everyone with decent eye sight can see having imam in PP is a waste of time, the guy bats like coward and takes zero risks, which just applies pressure at other end. Look at how Aus, Eng and India bat in PP and they put the team 1st and look to take risks and score heavily.

We have posters here doing bhangra because he averages 40+ etc.. and number of runs he's got

Most of these runs are zero impact and he's a bottler in tournament cricket.

Players who win big games and CT, world cups etc... are remember not someone who dead bats in PP and then slogs a few after snailing his way to meaningless milestone.

One poster was getting over excited because how quickly he may get to 3,000 runs ) what have those runs achieved? Nothing!

 

[Amjid Javed]

Another thing that needs to be considered is boundary percentage.

In the last 2 years, he's hitting a boundary after every 11.6 balls. Compare that to his pre-2022 stats where he hit a boundary after every 14.2 balls.

Most of those boundaries are still probably late in his inns.

I'd like to see his stats of dot balls, boundaries and strike rates in PP, because that's where he's the biggest liability.

 

[Caved12]

Mamoon is right.

Imam is a great player and we are lucky to have him.

I am sure Imam will get better with time and will improve his strike rate as well.

 

[Amjid Javed]

Mamoon is right.

Imam is a great player and we are lucky to have him.

I am sure Imam will get better with time and will improve his strike rate as well.

Mamoon has an eye for mediocre talent and output in all sports. Imam is just yet another mediocre sports player who he over hypes.

Playing ODIs is now as easy as it gets with the rules so favour of batsmen, even then imam bats like sunil gavaskar use to when ODIs were 1st introduced.

 

[Caved12]

Mamoon has an eye for mediocre talent and output in all sports. Imam is just yet another mediocre sports player who he over hypes.

Playing ODIs is now as easy as it gets with the rules so favour of batsmen, even then imam bats like sunil gavaskar use to when ODIs were 1st introduced.

Not a huge fan of his posts anymore, but he has explained this well and I agree with him.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Let's see how many impactful runs he gets in world cup 2023 in pressure games and how many dead knocks he plays.

I'd really like him or whoever plays to do well because I want to see Pak do well and win the WC.

 

[Caved12]

That pitch yesterday was easy to bat on, but not easy enough to score at a 100 plus strike rate. Just my two cents

 

[shariqnoor]

Everyone with decent eye sight can see having imam in PP is a waste of time, the guy bats like coward and takes zero risks, which just applies pressure at other end. Look at how Aus, Eng and India bat in PP and they put the team 1st and look to take risks and score heavily.

We have posters here doing bhangra because he averages 40+ etc.. and number of runs he's got

Most of these runs are zero impact and he's a bottler in tournament cricket.

Players who win big games and CT, world cups etc... are remember not someone who dead bats in PP and then slogs a few after snailing his way to meaningless milestone.

One poster was getting over excited because how quickly he may get to 3,000 runs ) what have those runs achieved? Nothing!

Lol. Look at the amount of hate ingrained here. What have those runs achieved? Player of the Series in SA, a 150 against England in England. A record chase against Australia and here people have the audacity to put asterisks against Imam for the runs he scores.

May I ask you what has AB de Villiers runs achieved for South Africa? Literally 0 trophies. The guy hasn't even won the IPL ever. So should we consign AB to the bin?

 

[Cric1234]

Lol. Look at the amount of hate ingrained here. What have those runs achieved? Player of the Series in SA, a 150 against England in England. A record chase against Australia and here people have the audacity to put asterisks against Imam for the runs he scores.

May I ask you what has AB de Villiers runs achieved for South Africa? Literally 0 trophies. The guy hasn't even won the IPL ever. So should we consign AB to the bin?

Apart from the last match against Bangladesh Imam didn’t cross 75 strike rate once in the World Cup 6 matches were against the top 8 teams and the pitches were generally decent for batting 4 times a team scored 300 plus.

AB De Villiers has the fastest ever hundred in a World Cup is leagues above Imam as an ODI batsman and scored 65 of 45 in the semi final in 2015 which Imam will never do a wrong comparison if there ever was one.

 

[gazza619]

Gosh! The amount of time people are spending in this thread justifying Imam’s stats.

Look I personally like Imam. He is solid.

But that knock in the third ODI against NZ was pure selfish and poor.

 

[YousafTheBeast]

Whats the usual dot ball percentage for openers?

Look at the dot ball percentages of rohit sharma , david warner , Aaron finch ,fakhar zaman etc.

Hint: imam has a lower dot ball percentage.

Warner, Sharma and Finch don’t have the luxury of playing against England C, Australia C, New Zealand C, Zimbabwe C etc.

Fakhar is slow in the PP overs but he makes up for it at the end. Imam isn’t going to go from 45 off 65 to 100 off 90.

 

[Amjid Javed]

Lol. Look at the amount of hate ingrained here. What have those runs achieved? Player of the Series in SA, a 150 against England in England. A record chase against Australia and here people have the audacity to put asterisks against Imam for the runs he scores.

May I ask you what has AB de Villiers runs achieved for South Africa? Literally 0 trophies. The guy hasn't even won the IPL ever. So should we consign AB to the bin?

Hate? )

I don't support mediocrity! Wow player of the series in SA. Well done!

Was that a world cup? Or CT? Or an Asian cup?

No one cares about bilateral series, nor one off run chases.

We will see whether imam has improved when he plays in WC against full strength sides in high pressure games, let's see if his so called great form gets Pakistan to a semi final or world cup final and he leads from the front.

Your doing bhangra like imam has achieved some sort of legendary world class batting level.

The fact the guy takes zero risks in PP, shows that he's 1) selfish 2) zero ability to actually improve his game to take advantage of men in the circle. Apart from conventional cricket shots, zero improvisation skills.

If most batsmen played risk free cricket and batted selfishly they would get 100 off 120 balls most matches. In modern game that's worth nothing.

 

[shariqnoor]

Apart from the last match against Bangladesh Imam didn’t cross 75 strike rate once in the World Cup 6 matches were against the top 8 teams and the pitches were generally decent for batting 4 times a team scored 300 plus.

AB De Villiers has the fastest ever hundred in a World Cup is leagues above Imam as an ODI batsman and scored 65 of 45 in the semi final in 2015 which Imam will never do a wrong comparison if there ever was one.

There is no comparison. Read my post in context of the post I quoted and see what I'm saying. I'm not making any Imam-AB comparison.

 

[shariqnoor]

Hate? )

I don't support mediocrity! Wow player of the series in SA. Well done!

Was that a world cup? Or CT? Or an Asian cup?

No one cares about bilateral series, nor one off run chases.

We will see whether imam has improved when he plays in WC against full strength sides in high pressure games, let's see if his so called great form gets Pakistan to a semi final or world cup final and he leads from the front.

Your doing bhangra like imam has achieved some sort of legendary world class batting level.

The fact the guy takes zero risks in PP, shows that he's 1) selfish 2) zero ability to actually improve his game to take advantage of men in the circle. Apart from conventional cricket shots, zero improvisation skills.

If most batsmen played risk free cricket and batted selfishly they would get 100 off 120 balls most matches. In modern game that's worth nothing.

So it's only Imam's responsibility to get Pakistan into the semi-final or world cup final? Got it.

I'm doing bhangra because after 20 years, Pakistan has found a solid opening batsman who Pakistanis should not be dissing based on the volume of runs he has scored. Even a 90 SR in the last 2 years is not good enough. But I guess the majority of the nation yearns for those glory days of Imran Nazir batting 10 balls on average. Is Imam a legendary batsman? No. Nobody is deluded to even put him amongst the likes of Rohit, Warner, Roy. But Imam is definitely one of the best Pakistani openers ever.

"If most batsmen played risk free cricket and batted selfishly they would get 100 off 120 balls most matches. In modern game that's worth nothing."

Yes, I remember how Ahmed Shehzad used to bludgeon attacks all around the world at 72 SR to score 10 centuries in 12 innings before Imam came along. I remember Hafeez tormenting bowlers at 76 SR scoring centuries at will before Imam came along. I also remember Taufeeq Umar playing super aggressive innings which unfortunately caused him to not score any century otherwise he was a Buttler in the making. And least of all, who can forget Salman Butt who played at such a ferocious pace of 76 SR that it hindered him from reaching 45 hundreds at least.

 

[shamaan]

If you go by stats, no. Bavuma averages more and has a higher strike rate.

He wouldn’t get into most teams. Almost all the big teams have players on the bench or in domestic that can out perform Imam who is our first choice opener. When I mean out perform, I mean someone that has an impact on the game.

So you would pick Bavuma ahead of Imaam if this was the only choice ?

I was talking about current players in the opening slot in international cricket not players from domestic.

 

[ads101]

Imam is a very good player, and it surprises me why people are so bothered about him. Whether or not he’s a great player is irrelevant, you can’t average over 50, ranked top ten, be an asset in multiple formats and somehow be bad.

Imad should be our allrounder at 7. Rizwan takes a place at 4, and has been better of late, but needs to keep improving, and is given leeway because he is a wicketkeeper, and a good one too.

That leaves positions 5 and 6 without a cemented batsman in place. Haris is now injured so even harder to fill. Should focus on that before we go after imam. When you look at the top 6 and Imam is the weakest batsman there, then we can go after him. But frankly if a guy like Imam becomes the weakest in our batting line up, it will probably be one of the strongest batting line ups.

I have seen plenty of terrible openers before Imam came along. People want the days back where they had 30 odd averages with often worse SRs, or 20 year olds with hardly any experience who are struggling in international cricket right now because they aren’t ready.

This top 3 have all collectively contributed to us getting good totals year after year. None of them are the problem, which is partly why all 3 are ranked top ten.

 

[Kianig89]

Imam.is definitely better than Ahmed Shehzad Shahzaib Hasan Khurram Manzoor Fawad Alam Taufeeq Umer Khalid Latif Kamran Akmal Imran Farhat Imran Nazir Shahid Afridi Salman Butt
That's almost 95% of Pakistan openers in last two decade so let's support Imam

 

[DeadlyVenom]

As an avid cricket fan, I am pleased to see that Imam-ul-Haq is fast becoming a solid player for the Pakistan cricket team. He has displayed a level of intelligence that indicates his willingness and ability to improve his game, which bodes well for the future of Pakistani cricket.

While he has not played many T20 matches for Pakistan, it would be beneficial for him to play more T20 cricket to expand his skills and adaptability to different formats. T20 cricket is a fast-paced and dynamic game that requires a different approach than the longer formats of the game, and playing more T20 matches could help him become a more well-rounded player.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Lol. Look at the amount of hate ingrained here. What have those runs achieved? Player of the Series in SA, a 150 against England in England. A record chase against Australia and here people have the audacity to put asterisks against Imam for the runs he scores.

May I ask you what has AB de Villiers runs achieved for South Africa? Literally 0 trophies. The guy hasn't even won the IPL ever. So should we consign AB to the bin?

In fact most of players in Pakistan's history should be consigned to the bin using the logic of some posters as we have rarely won anything.

I think much of this logic is carried over from dim football fans who judge players solely on trophies won. Cricket is a different game altogether. Sure trophys won is important and is a useful way to judge players, but it isn't the be all and end all.

 

[Mamoon]

Mamoon has an eye for mediocre talent and output in all sports. Imam is just yet another mediocre sports player who he over hypes.

Playing ODIs is now as easy as it gets with the rules so favour of batsmen, even then imam bats like sunil gavaskar use to when ODIs were 1st introduced.

^ how to be in the good books of such delusional fans:

Score 0 fifties, 0 hundreds, bat for 10 balls but have a SR of 300 and make sure you get caught while playing a reverse scoop. You will be praised and called a selfless player.

But if you are averaging 50 at a SR of 90 (in last 2 years), scoring centuries frequently and helping Pakistan post and chase 300+ totals, you will be called mediocre and selfish.

If you score runs you are selfish. You must not score runs to win admiration of ignorant Pakistani fans.

If Imam is mediocre then I wonder how would we like to describe 99% of the ODI openers who have played for Pakistan because Imam is better than all of them except 3-4 at max.

 

[YousafTheBeast]

^ how to be in the good books of such delusional fans:

Score 0 fifties, 0 hundreds, bat for 10 balls but have a SR of 300 and make sure you get caught while playing a reverse scoop. You will be praised and called a selfless player.

But if you are averaging 50 at a SR of 90 (in last 2 years), scoring centuries frequently and helping Pakistan post and chase 300+ totals, you will be called mediocre and selfish.

If you score runs you are selfish. You must not score runs to win admiration of ignorant Pakistani fans.

If Imam is mediocre then I wonder how would we like to describe 99% of the ODI openers who have played for Pakistan because Imam is better than all of them except 3-4 at max.

Since you want to bring up his stats from the last 2 years, let’s break it down.

vs South Africa (first choice attack) - 44 ave @ 80 sr

vs New Zealand (B team) - 35 ave @ 85 sr

vs Australia (B team) - 149 ave @ 101

vs England (B team) - 19 ave @ 75

vs West Indies (crap bowling attack overall) - 66 ave @ 94

vs Netherlands (minnow) - 4 ave @ 27


So, basically you’re impressed by these stats from the last 2 years where his best series would probably be the South Africa one given that it was their best bowling attack and away from home.

I have 2 questions:

Has he really improved or has he just not been tested by the best on a regular basis?

Would his stats be the same as they are now had he played against the first choice bowling attacks on a more frequent basis?

 

[JibranAnsari]

Whats the acceptable SR in power play? Which current opener has the best SR ib powerplay? Imam has a sr of 82 since jan 1 2022 in odis.

 

[Mamoon]

Since you want to bring up his stats from the last 2 years, let’s break it down.

vs South Africa (first choice attack) - 44 ave @ 80 sr

vs New Zealand (B team) - 35 ave @ 85 sr

vs Australia (B team) - 149 ave @ 101

vs England (B team) - 19 ave @ 75

vs West Indies (crap bowling attack overall) - 66 ave @ 94

vs Netherlands (minnow) - 4 ave @ 27


So, basically you’re impressed by these stats from the last 2 years where his best series would probably be the South Africa one given that it was their best bowling attack and away from home.

I have 2 questions:

Has he really improved or has he just not been tested by the best on a regular basis?

Would his stats be the same as they are now had he played against the first choice bowling attacks on a more frequent basis?

Thankfully he failed badly against Netherlands, otherwise that series would be used against him. At least he can’t be called a minnow/associate team basher now.

Those are very good numbers overall and based on those numbers, he deserves to be praised and more importantly, he deserves to be in the team.

He is not the best opener in the world, but he, along with Fakhar is the best we have in Pakistan currently.

His SR has been very good compared to his first couple of years in international cricket so it is obvious that he has improved.

I’m not interested in would, could and what have happened in a parallel universe had he played ABC bowlers in XYZ conditions. What I’m interested in is the fact that has been scoring heaps of runs with at an impressive SR and there is no merit in the argument that he should be dropped from the team.

Absolutely none. It is a completely nonsense argument fueled by hate, bias and agenda. If you think that he doesn’t deserve to be in the ODI team based on the numbers above then you’re wrong.

If you think he should be in the team then let him play. There is no need of adding asterisks and terms & conditions every time he scores and he scores more often than not.

 

[Amjid Javed]

^ how to be in the good books of such delusional fans:

Score 0 fifties, 0 hundreds, bat for 10 balls but have a SR of 300 and make sure you get caught while playing a reverse scoop. You will be praised and called a selfless player.

But if you are averaging 50 at a SR of 90 (in last 2 years), scoring centuries frequently and helping Pakistan post and chase 300+ totals, you will be called mediocre and selfish.

If you score runs you are selfish. You must not score runs to win admiration of ignorant Pakistani fans.

If Imam is mediocre then I wonder how would we like to describe 99% of the ODI openers who have played for Pakistan because Imam is better than all of them except 3-4 at max.

As per usual loads of assumptions thats I called for some sort of slogger at top of the order, never done that ever.

In regards to Imam, I was just as critical on other Pakistan openers in odis as well.

Why because most openers seem to waste the PP or batting early on by playing risk free cricket, no strike rotation and eat dot balls like its going out of fashion.

You don't see this approach from England, India, Australia and these are sides that are usually at the business ends of ODI tournaments.

Do you think India, Australia or England openers care about limping to a hundred after 35 or 40 overs? They go out and try abs gey their team off to a flyer.

Your whole weak argument is based on well Imam is of best Pakistan openers ever! Who actually cares, he should be compared to the openers he's up against in oppostions team in this era. The ODi game now is as its most batting friendly as it ever has been with all rule changes etc.. in last few years.

 

[Amjid Javed]

Imam and fakhar are both guilty of starting inns of slowly in odis, difference is fakhar is capable of hammering a 50 off 25 balls mid inns to make up for his slow starts, Imam doesn't have that capability. Pretty much any time he gets to a 100 it takes him 35 overs to do so.

In comparison you will see England openers Aussie openers, Indian openers hammer out a 100 in around 25 overs and that's the massive gulf in players taking risks with their batting and Imam plodding along.

All those fan boys defending him, I will tell you this now his and Babar snail approach to inns will be one of maim reasons Pakistan don't win the 2023 World Cup. Because this type of batting approach will get exposed in tournament cricket.

 

[Cric1234]

Let’s go back and look at all the matches Ahmed Shehzad played in 2011 obviously Shehzad was below par with a strike of 72 in his career.

Here are Pakistan’s scores in every match played in that year:

293 vs New Zealand Pakistan won

264 vs New Zealand Pakistan won

268 vs New Zealand Pakistan won

254 vs New Zealand New Zealand won

317 vs Kenya Pakistan won

277 vs Sri Lanka Pakistan won

184 all out vs Canada Pakistan won

192 vs New Zealand New Zealand won

164 vs Zimbabwe Pakistan won

222 vs West Indies Pakistan won

223 vs West Indies Pakistan won

177 vs West Indies Pakistan won

248 vs West Indies West Indies won

139 vs West Indies West Indies won

As we can see only one score above 300 that too against Kenya and 7 scores below 250 some resulted in wins there is no comparison here between playing full strength teams in varied conditions versus playing weaker bowling when 300 plus is regularly a par score.

There is a good chance somebody with an 82 strike rate today would have a 72 strike rate a decade ago and have more of a struggle holding his batting form due to the conditions and quality of bowling.

 

[Suleiman]

Imam and fakhar are both guilty of starting inns of slowly in odis, difference is fakhar is capable of hammering a 50 off 25 balls mid inns to make up for his slow starts, Imam doesn't have that capability. Pretty much any time he gets to a 100 it takes him 35 overs to do so.

In comparison you will see England openers Aussie openers, Indian openers hammer out a 100 in around 25 overs and that's the massive gulf in players taking risks with their batting and Imam plodding along.

All those fan boys defending him, I will tell you this now his and Babar snail approach to inns will be one of maim reasons Pakistan don't win the 2023 World Cup. Because this type of batting approach will get exposed in tournament cricket.

You’re missing the point. You quote Australia, England and India- the big 3 nations with the best resources and system and money in cricket. Yeah, no **** they will be producing top of the line batsmen with the systems they have in place compared to Pakistan.

PCB is broke compared to them. Have you seen the state of the stadiums, pitches, quality of cricket in domestics? Do you think a ready made Jason Roy, Rohit Sharma, David Warner will be found there in those conditions?

By all means, critique Imam, as well as any other player for their shortcomings. We’re not here to mindlessly praise and overlook shortcomings

But at the same time, get real. Seriously.

You have 15+ years of evidence in front of you of the type of openers we have produced. Imam stands head and shoulders above most.

Does that mean I’m saying he’s the best ever, or an ATG. No.

He’s a damn good option considering our resources and ability to produce international players in this day and age based on his overall numbers wrt to his competition (I.e the other potential Pakistani openers)

If we had an opener worthy of playing for India, Australia or England, he would be playing right now.

Not aimed at you, but for everyone who wants him gone it’s hilarious that fans of a country that displayed this legendary performance at a World Cup few years back Vs a borderline minnow, now want to dismiss a near 50 averaging opener hitting at 85-90 SR )

 

[Amjid Javed]

Yes, I remember how Ahmed Shehzad used to bludgeon attacks all around the world at 72 SR to score 10 centuries in 12 innings before Imam came along. I remember Hafeez tormenting bowlers at 76 SR scoring centuries at will before Imam came along. I also remember Taufeeq Umar playing super aggressive innings which unfortunately caused him to not score any century otherwise he was a Buttler in the making. And least of all, who can forget Salman Butt who played at such a ferocious pace of 76 SR that it hindered him from reaching 45 hundreds at least.

Comparing players averages and strike rates of different eras is a weak argument to say the least.

ODI cricket is the most batsmen favoured it's ever been with the 2 new balls, flat wickets, small boundaries and fielding restrictions etc. Most batsmen will find it easier to score runs. Let me give you a prime example of how stupid comparing stats of different eras are

Imam averages 51, Strike rate 82.99 - 9 hundreds in 59 ODIs (1 every 6 games)

2 of the best rated odi openers of all time are Greenidge and Haynes

Greenidge averaged 45 strike rate 64
Haynes averages 41 strike rare 64

So is Imam better then both these players? 64 strike rate would be seen as snail pace compared to imams 82.

But back in the 90s a strike rate of mid 60s was seen as very fast.

This is exactly why players should be compared to other players in same era.

 

[Amjid Javed]

[MENTION=136729]Suleiman[/MENTION]

You mentioned the legendary performance of Pakistan vs WI at 2015 WC, where the team was 1 for 4 to make out some sort of weak point. So West indies were minnows and humiliated Pakistan. 1 for 4 to 160 all out.

Why not mentioned 2019 world cup? West indies were still minnows, Pakistan got bowled out for 105.

So what irrelevant point were you trying to make as you picked the most pathetic of examples to use. West indies regularly beat Pakistan in world cups, 8 wins in 11 games, so at least pick a decent example to try and make something relevant.

 

[shamaan]

Imam and fakhar are both guilty of starting inns of slowly in odis, difference is fakhar is capable of hammering a 50 off 25 balls mid inns to make up for his slow starts, Imam doesn't have that capability. Pretty much any time he gets to a 100 it takes him 35 overs to do so.

In comparison you will see England openers Aussie openers, Indian openers hammer out a 100 in around 25 overs and that's the massive gulf in players taking risks with their batting and Imam plodding along.

All those fan boys defending him, I will tell you this now his and Babar snail approach to inns will be one of maim reasons Pakistan don't win the 2023 World Cup. Because this type of batting approach will get exposed in tournament cricket.

Shall we compare Babar Azam to other number 3 and let's see who comes out on top ?

 

[Cric1234]

You’re missing the point. You quote Australia, England and India- the big 3 nations with the best resources and system and money in cricket. Yeah, no **** they will be producing top of the line batsmen with the systems they have in place compared to Pakistan.

PCB is broke compared to them. Have you seen the state of the stadiums, pitches, quality of cricket in domestics? Do you think a ready made Jason Roy, Rohit Sharma, David Warner will be found there in those conditions?

By all means, critique Imam, as well as any other player for their shortcomings. We’re not here to mindlessly praise and overlook shortcomings

But at the same time, get real. Seriously.

You have 15+ years of evidence in front of you of the type of openers we have produced. Imam stands head and shoulders above most.

Does that mean I’m saying he’s the best ever, or an ATG. No.

He’s a damn good option considering our resources and ability to produce international players in this day and age based on his overall numbers wrt to his competition (I.e the other potential Pakistani openers)

If we had an opener worthy of playing for India, Australia or England, he would be playing right now.

Not aimed at you, but for everyone who wants him gone it’s hilarious that fans of a country that displayed this legendary performance at a World Cup few years back Vs a borderline minnow, now want to dismiss a near 50 averaging opener hitting at 85-90 SR )
View attachment 119411

Imam was part of the 2019 World Cup 6 matches against the top 8 teams at full strength proved too much for great Imam he failed to cross 75 strike rate in even one match despite 4 matches having scores of above 300 that record he has is all B teams and minnows even so his strike rate is still over 20 points behind the batsmen with best strike rates today.

 

[corleone]

Comparing players averages and strike rates of different eras is a weak argument to say the least.

ODI cricket is the most batsmen favoured it's ever been with the 2 new balls, flat wickets, small boundaries and fielding restrictions etc. Most batsmen will find it easier to score runs. Let me give you a prime example of how stupid comparing stats of different eras are

Imam averages 51, Strike rate 82.99 - 9 hundreds in 59 ODIs (1 every 6 games)

2 of the best rated odi openers of all time are Greenidge and Haynes

Greenidge averaged 45 strike rate 64
Haynes averages 41 strike rare 64

So is Imam better then both these players? 64 strike rate would be seen as snail pace compared to imams 82.

But back in the 90s a strike rate of mid 60s was seen as very fast.

This is exactly why players should be compared to other players in same era.

So why don't you compare average and sr of other Pakistani openers from this era with Imam's? Not quite sure what your issue is with Imam, but the numbers would suggest he is head & shoulders above most.

How does one conclude that a Sr of mid 60s was seen as very fast in the 90s, whilst the strike rate of 80s is considered slow in this era, any particular metric for that?

 

[Amjid Javed]

So why don't you compare average and sr of other Pakistani openers from this era with Imam's? Not quite sure what your issue is with Imam, but the numbers would suggest he is head & shoulders above most.

How does one conclude that a Sr of mid 60s was seen as very fast in the 90s, whilst the strike rate of 80s is considered slow in this era, any particular metric for that?

1) imam is the best of a mediocre bunch of Pakistan openers. My point was his striker rate in comparison to other openers in other teams is pretty poor.

2) it's quite easy way to conclude what a good strike rate was considered in each decade etc..

Example 2019 world cup which imam played in (minimum 500 balls faced) so we are talking about players scoring a good chunk of runs at a good strike rate

Rohit Ave 81 at 93
Bairstow 48 at 92
Warner 71 at 89

In comparison whilst imam didn't face over 500 balls. In 8 games

Imam averages 38 at 76

Go check both list and espcially the 2nd one the top scores list and you will find the vast majority were scoring high 80s to over 100 strike rates and imam was trundling along in mid 70s. This is my point, In comparison to what is the seen as a fast scoring strike rate, imam was lagging massively behind.

You can find the stats for each world cup and strike rates and it gives you an idea of what was seem as a decent scoring rate.

1992 world cup 60 was a good strike rate, 1996 world cup 70-80 was seen a good strike rate

https://www.espncricinfo.com/record...-strike-rate/icc-cricket-world-cup-2019-12357

https://www.espncricinfo.com/record...-runs-career/icc-cricket-world-cup-2019-12357

 

[corleone]

1) imam is the best of a mediocre bunch of Pakistan openers. My point was his striker rate in comparison to other openers in other teams is pretty poor.

2) it's quite easy way to conclude what a good strike rate was considered in each decade etc..

Example 2019 world cup which imam played in (minimum 500 balls faced) so we are talking about players scoring a good chunk of runs at a good strike rate

Rohit Ave 81 at 93
Bairstow 48 at 92
Warner 71 at 89

In comparison whilst imam didn't face over 500 balls. In 8 games

Imam averages 38 at 76

Go check both list and espcially the 2nd one the top scores list and you will find the vast majority were scoring high 80s to over 100 strike rates and imam was trundling along in mid 70s. This is my point, In comparison to what is the seen as a fast scoring strike rate, imam was lagging massively behind.

You can find the stats for each world cup and strike rates and it gives you an idea of what was seem as a decent scoring rate.

1992 world cup 60 was a good strike rate, 1996 world cup 70-80 was seen a good strike rate

https://www.espncricinfo.com/record...-strike-rate/icc-cricket-world-cup-2019-12357

https://www.espncricinfo.com/record...-runs-career/icc-cricket-world-cup-2019-12357

Well of course his strike rate is poor compared to other international openers; the fact that he's not a pick for t20s whereas the likes of Warner Rohit etc are tells a story in itself. Anyhow, his strike rate is a result of his skillset, and considering he's the second best Pakistani opener of this era, says a lot about the talent in Pak.

In 2019 imam ul haq was 23 years old, whereas the above names were/are seasoned veterans. A fairer comparison would be with Imam's numbers in the upcoming WC.

 

[Amjid Javed]

Well of course his strike rate is poor compared to other international openers; the fact that he's not a pick for t20s whereas the likes of Warner Rohit etc are tells a story in itself. Anyhow, his strike rate is a result of his skillset, and considering he's the second best Pakistani opener of this era, says a lot about the talent in Pak.

In 2019 imam ul haq was 23 years old, whereas the above names were/are seasoned veterans. A fairer comparison would be with Imam's numbers in the upcoming WC.

So just more excuses, so let's address these.

1) why would Pakistan pick Imam for T20s when both domestically and in PSL he's be shown to be not good enough.

National T20 cup - 21/22

Imam averages 26 - sr 118

The top run scores in the competition were all scoring at sr 130 plus and up towards sr 150.

https://www.espncricinfo.com/record...st-runs-career/national-t20-cup-2021-22-14172

Peshawar zalmi saw sense a few years ago and stop picking him in PSL X1s when the realised you can have a batsmen playing an anchor role chasing scores of 190+ all the time

So where exactly Is this improvement that Imam cheer leaders are doing bhangra over?

It's down to the player to prove on domestic performance and PSL he's good enough to play T20s.

Next excuse was skill set! So called talent gets you only so far, its the hours of practice you put in to improve your game which takes you up levels. Apart from conventional cricket shots pull, cut, drive etc. Where has imam should any sort of skill to manufacture shots etc. Scoops, reverse scoop, switch hits, power hitting etc..?

Most players work on their games to improve, in T20s and ODI, good batsmen look to score of so called good deliveries, imam is always safety 1st.

I've said numerous times imam needs to lmprove on

Batting in PP
Striker rate in PP
Take more calculated risks
Show better acceleration in inns rather then when he's just got to a 50 or nearing 100

I couldn't care less what our historical openers were like, im talking about what all openers need to show in current game to be a real success.

Then you mentioned the 2023 world cup, I made this point already. Rather then people doing bhangra over bilaterals vs B and C teams. Let's see how he fairs in a high pressure tournament and whether he can put up match winning knocks but also improve on his mediocre striker rate for current era.

 

[pakistani pride]

Imam is the King of Jamodis. Stats obsessed. I am sure Ben Stokes doesnt have the greatest stats in white ball cricket, but what matters is his impact during big games.

Imam will always go missing in big games, because his attitude is to score for himself. I always point out his 100 vs SA which he celebrated like he won the WC. Only for SA to chase down that score with ease.

 

[Mamoon]

As per usual loads of assumptions thats I called for some sort of slogger at top of the order, never done that ever.

In regards to Imam, I was just as critical on other Pakistan openers in odis as well.

Why because most openers seem to waste the PP or batting early on by playing risk free cricket, no strike rotation and eat dot balls like its going out of fashion.

You don't see this approach from England, India, Australia and these are sides that are usually at the business ends of ODI tournaments.

Do you think India, Australia or England openers care about limping to a hundred after 35 or 40 overs? They go out and try abs gey their team off to a flyer.

Your whole weak argument is based on well Imam is of best Pakistan openers ever! Who actually cares, he should be compared to the openers he's up against in oppostions team in this era. The ODi game now is as its most batting friendly as it ever has been with all rule changes etc.. in last few years.

It is difficult to identify a problem but more challenging to propose solutions.

You don’t want a slogger like Mohammad Haris or Asif Ali opening the innings in ODIs because you know that they are not good enough to last long enough to hurt the opposition. They can work as openers in T10 cricket but not in ODI cricket.

You don’t want an opener like Imam who is averaging 50+ and a SR of 90+ in the last two years because apparently that is not good enough for you.

You keep harping about English openers. Yeah no crap, who wouldn’t want such openers in their ODI side?

Jason Roy averages 40 at a SR of 105
Johnny Bairstow averages 46 at a SR of 105

They have sustained such excellent numbers in spite of playing so frequently against first choice attacks and they also have performed in World Cups.

Now please give me a list of openers in Pakistan who have the ability and the skill to average 40+ at a SR of 105+ in ODIs while playing against first choice attacks and also perform in World Cups.


You can’t because such openers don’t exist in Pakistan. If you can find me a Roy or a Bairstow I would be happy to see Imam out of the playing XI. The only thing that matters is how you fare against the players in your own country because that is your competition - not players from stronger cricketing nations who have more ability and skill than you do.

Imam fully deserves to be in the team and he is doing well. He will continue to play and rightly so until someone better comes along and when he does, he will make his presence known.

 

[Amjid Javed]

It is difficult to identify a problem but more challenging to propose solutions.

You don’t want a slogger like Mohammad Haris or Asif Ali opening the innings in ODIs because you know that they are not good enough to last long enough to hurt the opposition. They can work as openers in T10 cricket but not in ODI cricket.

You don’t want an opener like Imam who is averaging 50+ and a SR of 90+ in the last two years because apparently that is not good enough for you.

You keep harping about English openers. Yeah no crap, who wouldn’t want such openers in their ODI side?

Jason Roy averages 40 at a SR of 105
Johnny Bairstow averages 46 at a SR of 105

They have sustained such excellent numbers in spite of playing so frequently against first choice attacks and they also have performed in World Cups.

Now please give me a list of openers in Pakistan who have the ability and the skill to average 40+ at a SR of 105+ in ODIs while playing against first choice attacks and also perform in World Cups.


You can’t because such openers don’t exist in Pakistan. If you can find me a Roy or a Bairstow I would be happy to see Imam out of the playing XI. The only thing that matters is how you fare against the players in your own country because that is your competition - not players from stronger cricketing nations who have more ability and skill than you do.

Imam fully deserves to be in the team and he is doing well. He will continue to play and rightly so until someone better comes along and when he does, he will make his presence known.

If you actually read most of my posts in regards to imam I said he has to improve his game, that doesn't mean he needs to be replaced. Like I said in another response to someone on this thread imam has a lot of areas to improve.

Can he do it? Maybe it depends on how much hard work he puts it technically, mentally and also if his mindset changes.

Imam, babar, rizwan all bat in white ball cricket like personal millstones matter more then team results.

Imam could easily gey into nets and work on a bigger range of shots and practice those in domestically etc.. and that would benefit him at international level.

Just going out and playing convention cricket shots and just waiting for bad balls isn't the way international white ball cricket is played any more.

Out of all our batsmen who bat in a sedate fashion Imam is the least capable of catching up on his slow starts later in inns. Again due to the lack of full amour of shots around the wicket, improvising or using initiative.

Imam needs to taking more calculated risks in PP, show more positive attitude early on but also go through the gears in inns a lot quicker. Almost all the time it's get to a milestone then play a few shots, that ain't going to win you high pressure games.

Imam is the best of a bad bunch of openers in Pakistan, but he does have scope to improve but that's all down to what the player sees as most important team glory or some sort of run scoring legacy with zero clutch moments.

 

[shariqnoor]

Comparing players averages and strike rates of different eras is a weak argument to say the least.

ODI cricket is the most batsmen favoured it's ever been with the 2 new balls, flat wickets, small boundaries and fielding restrictions etc. Most batsmen will find it easier to score runs. Let me give you a prime example of how stupid comparing stats of different eras are

Imam averages 51, Strike rate 82.99 - 9 hundreds in 59 ODIs (1 every 6 games)

2 of the best rated odi openers of all time are Greenidge and Haynes

Greenidge averaged 45 strike rate 64
Haynes averages 41 strike rare 64

So is Imam better then both these players? 64 strike rate would be seen as snail pace compared to imams 82.

But back in the 90s a strike rate of mid 60s was seen as very fast.

This is exactly why players should be compared to other players in same era.

Different era? What are you on about?

Ahmed Shehzad played in an era of Warner, Rohit, McMcullum.

Salman Butt, Taufeeq Umar and Mohammad Hafeez played in an era of Gilchrist, Gambhir, Sehwag.

And you are telling me as if I'm suggesting names like Shoaib Mohammad and Ramiz Raja.

 

[Minnowbasher]

Imam is the most underrated ODI batter in the world.

 

[Mamoon]

If you actually read most of my posts in regards to imam I said he has to improve his game, that doesn't mean he needs to be replaced. Like I said in another response to someone on this thread imam has a lot of areas to improve.

Can he do it? Maybe it depends on how much hard work he puts it technically, mentally and also if his mindset changes.

Imam, babar, rizwan all bat in white ball cricket like personal millstones matter more then team results.

Imam could easily gey into nets and work on a bigger range of shots and practice those in domestically etc.. and that would benefit him at international level.

Just going out and playing convention cricket shots and just waiting for bad balls isn't the way international white ball cricket is played any more.

Out of all our batsmen who bat in a sedate fashion Imam is the least capable of catching up on his slow starts later in inns. Again due to the lack of full amour of shots around the wicket, improvising or using initiative.

Imam needs to taking more calculated risks in PP, show more positive attitude early on but also go through the gears in inns a lot quicker. Almost all the time it's get to a milestone then play a few shots, that ain't going to win you high pressure games.

Imam is the best of a bad bunch of openers in Pakistan, but he does have scope to improve but that's all down to what the player sees as most important team glory or some sort of run scoring legacy with zero clutch moments.

Imam has already improved his game. He is averaging 50+ at an SR of 90+ in the last two years. What else do you want? If you want him to have a SR of 300+ that cannot happen.

It is what it is, he is not the most explosive player in the world but he is an excellent opener and is doing a great job for Pakistan.

 

[Amjid Javed]

Different era? What are you on about?

Ahmed Shehzad played in an era of Warner, Rohit, McMcullum.

Salman Butt, Taufeeq Umar and Mohammad Hafeez played in an era of Gilchrist, Gambhir, Sehwag.

And you are telling me as if I'm suggesting names like Shoaib Mohammad and Ramiz Raja.

Your whole weak argument is comparing players not to 5 and 10 years ago, the game has evolved and will keep evolving.

Go have a look at what was considered a good strike rate 10 years ago, 5 years ago and now it's gone up.

Like I said imams strike rate compared to those openers around him in other teams is below what is now seen as decent scoring rate.

Your just scraping the barrel with oh he's better then other pakistan openers like that's some sort of medal of honour.

 

[Amjid Javed]

Imam has already improved his game. He is averaging 50+ at an SR of 90+ in the last two years. What else do you want? If you want him to have a SR of 300+ that cannot happen.

It is what it is, he is not the most explosive player in the world but he is an excellent opener and is doing a great job for Pakistan.

We will see how good imams so called improvement is in the world cup, against full strength teams and in pressure games. Complete different pressure when you playing for urself in bilateral series and make or break world cup games.

 

[Suleiman]

[MENTION=136729]Suleiman[/MENTION]

You mentioned the legendary performance of Pakistan vs WI at 2015 WC, where the team was 1 for 4 to make out some sort of weak point. So West indies were minnows and humiliated Pakistan. 1 for 4 to 160 all out.

Why not mentioned 2019 world cup? West indies were still minnows, Pakistan got bowled out for 105.

So what irrelevant point were you trying to make as you picked the most pathetic of examples to use. West indies regularly beat Pakistan in world cups, 8 wins in 11 games, so at least pick a decent example to try and make something relevant.

If you think that Pakistan’s batting in 2019 is comparable to its batting in 2015, then there really isn’t much else to say lol.

That 2015 performance is one amongst many, many batting failures that took place between 2012-2016/17. That was no longer normal for us in the last 4 years or so however.

 

[Mamoon]

We will see how good imams so called improvement is in the world cup, against full strength teams and in pressure games. Complete different pressure when you playing for urself in bilateral series and make or break world cup games.

Even if he fails in the World Cup, so what?

How many World Cups have Pakistan won? Why should Imam be judged for something that only one opening pair has achieved for Pakistan?

I guess Ramiz Raja must be the best ODI opener in Pakistan’s history. He averaged 58 in the 1992 World Cup and scored 2 centuries.

Even if Imam fails in the World Cup, he has done more for Pakistan in ODIs than 99% of the openers Pakistan have played in this format.

 

[YousafTheBeast]

Even if he fails in the World Cup, so what?

How many World Cups have Pakistan won? Why should Imam be judged for something that only one opening pair has achieved for Pakistan?

I guess Ramiz Raja must be the best ODI opener in Pakistan’s history. He averaged 58 in the 1992 World Cup and scored 2 centuries.

Even if Imam fails in the World Cup, he has done more for Pakistan in ODIs than 99% of the openers Pakistan have played in this format.

It’s the only time he gets to face first choice attacks.

It’s not an achievement to bully minnows, give the bat to me and I’d do better than 99% of Pakistani openers with the teams Imam faced.

I can’t remember anyone averaging low 30’s in list a cricket to then go on to average 50+ in international level. Can you name anyone?

 

[Mamoon]

It’s the only time he gets to face first choice attacks.

It’s not an achievement to bully minnows, give the bat to me and I’d do better than 99% of Pakistani openers with the teams Imam faced.

I can’t remember anyone averaging low 30’s in list a cricket to then go on to average 50+ in international level. Can you name anyone?

Joe Root averaged in low 40s in FC when he was picked for Test cricket. Babar averaged 35 in FC when he was picked for Test cricket.

The moral of the story is that domestic averages are not conclusive when you’re selecting a young player.

A 21-22 year old with a domestic average of 35-40 could have a domestic average of 50 if he plays domestic cricket in his prime years.

It is a different story if you are picking a 35 year old with a bad domestic record. Such a player will have almost no chance of doing well in international cricket.

Not every 50 averaging batsman in international cricket was a 50 averaging batsman from day one. Same is the case with domestic cricket averages as well.

Yes I am sure you are a better batsman than Imam. You are probably better than Virat Kohli and Don Bradman as well. It is a shame that you are posting on PP and not playing match-winning innings for Pakistan alongside Sharjeel.

Sharjeel and YousafTheBeast is the deadly opening combination that we have been waiting for.

 

[YousafTheBeast]

Joe Root averaged in low 40s in FC when he was picked for Test cricket. Babar averaged 35 in FC when he was picked for Test cricket.

The moral of the story is that domestic averages are not conclusive when you’re selecting a young player.

A 21-22 year old with a domestic average of 35-40 could have a domestic average of 50 if he plays domestic cricket in his prime years.

It is a different story if you are picking a 35 year old with a bad domestic record. Such a player will have almost no chance of doing well in international cricket.

Not every 50 averaging batsman in international cricket was a 50 averaging batsman from day one. Same is the case with domestic cricket averages as well.

Yes I am sure you are a better batsman than Imam. You are probably better than Virat Kohli and Don Bradman as well. It is a shame that you are posting on PP and not playing match-winning innings for Pakistan alongside Sharjeel.

Sharjeel and YousafTheBeast is the deadly opening combination that we have been waiting for.

Joe Root averaging 40 odd in county cricket would be the equivalent of a Pakistani averaging 60+ in FC cricket. If Joe Root was averaging low 30’s in county cricket he wouldn’t get an international call up and I highly doubt he’d be good enough to average 50+ at International level.

Babar wasn’t picked for his FC stats.

Let’s get back to Imam, when does he get inducted into the ICC Hall of Fame?

 

[Mamoon]

Joe Root averaging 40 odd in county cricket would be the equivalent of a Pakistani averaging 60+ in FC cricket.

This is backed by nothing. Not every batsman will do better in QEA compared to County cricket. It depends on the type of batsman and his strengths/weaknesses. Some batsmen will average higher in County while others will average higher in QEA.

The two tournaments are not played in identical conditions.

If Joe Root was averaging low 30’s in county cricket he wouldn’t get an international call up and I highly doubt he’d be good enough to average 50+ at International level.

Yeah you are wrong.

Root was averaging in the 30s in County cricket before he made his Test debut in 2012. Two years before he made his Test debut, he played a couple of youth Tests against Bangladesh and Sri Lanka and averaged in the 20s.

He was picked because his batting was growing in the right trajectory and he had huge potential. Same reason why Harry Brook was picked in spite of a FC average in the 30s.

As I said in my previous posts, the domestic averages of young players are not definite. They are not set in stone. A 30-31 year old 50+ averaging batsman at international level might average 32-33 in FC at the age of 21-22.

If you let such that player stay in FC till the age of 32-33 he is going to take his FC average to 50+.

Imam’s average in LA was not great not because he wasn’t good enough but because he was very young. If he was still playing LA it is obvious that his LA numbers would very similar to his current ODI numbers.

Babar wasn’t picked for his FC stats.

That is not the point. The point is that Babar is averaging close to 50 in Test cricket now even though he was averaging 35 in FC before his international call up.

This doesn’t mean he wasn’t good enough for FC; it means that he was a work in progress back then and his FC average did not reflect his ability and potential. If he was still a domestic player he would be scoring runs for fun in FC.

I agree that the chances of a player doing better at international level than domestic level are low. However, when you look at domestic averages, you have to consider factors such as how old the player is and what stage is the player in terms of growth and development.

You wouldn’t pick a 35 year old with a 32 average because he is not going to get better, but you might be tempted to pick a 22 year old with a 32 average if you see good potential in that player.

Let’s get back to Imam, when does he get inducted into the ICC Hall of Fame?

He probably won’t because I don’t think he is an all-time great player in the making, but he will surely be part of the Pakistan cricket Hall of Fame because by the time he retires, he will likely be among the top 3 run-getters and century-makers for Pakistan in ODIs.

However, that won’t stop people from moaning about him and telling us how Sharjeel was better than him and should have played over him. Speaking of Sharjeel, he deserves to be one of the first inductees of the Pakistan cricket Hall of Shame.

 

[sweep_shot]

He used to be slow but has improved a lot.

Definitely an essential member of the team now.

 

[shamaan]

Imaam is essential for ���� top order.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Joe Root averaging 40 odd in county cricket would be the equivalent of a Pakistani averaging 60+ in FC cricket. If Joe Root was averaging low 30’s in county cricket he wouldn’t get an international call up and I highly doubt he’d be good enough to average 50+ at International level.

Babar wasn’t picked for his FC stats.

Let’s get back to Imam, when does he get inducted into the ICC Hall of Fame?

Who do you think should open with Fakhar in the upcoming WC?

 

[YousafTheBeast]

Who do you think should open with Fakhar in the upcoming WC?

Probably Mohammad Haris if he had been given more game time against NZ over the likes of Masood.

My top 4 would be

Fakhar
Haris
Babar
Rizwan

Or

Fakhar
Rizwan
Babar
Haris

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Probably Mohammad Haris if he had been given more game time against NZ over the likes of Masood.

My top 4 would be

Fakhar
Haris
Babar
Rizwan

Or

Fakhar
Rizwan
Babar
Haris

I respect your opinion but I think Haris is too brash for a berth for ODIs. He has played 30 LA innings till now of which he has 6 scores of 50+ which roughly means 1 in 5.
Even in t20is, he has a tendency to lose his wicket after 20-30 which is fine considering the impetus for a fast start is important but he needs to become more consistent in scoring 50+ scores in LA to be considered for ODIs. Atm Imam is providing consistency and big scores. The only problem he has is his SR which is around 83. He needs to develop an extra gear to be able to go after pacers in the 20-40 over period. But the encouraging thing is Imam has actually worked hard and has gotten better in terms of his SR in last 2 years.

I would love for Haris or Saim to develop into consistent and flamboyant batters but they are too green atm.

Rizwan, I don't think should open in ODIs. Should bat at 5 and play with urgency like he did in the first 2 ODIs.

 

[Amjid Javed]

Even if he fails in the World Cup, so what?

How many World Cups have Pakistan won? Why should Imam be judged for something that only one opening pair has achieved for Pakistan?

I guess Ramiz Raja must be the best ODI opener in Pakistan’s history. He averaged 58 in the 1992 World Cup and scored 2 centuries.

Even if Imam fails in the World Cup, he has done more for Pakistan in ODIs than 99% of the openers Pakistan have played in this format.

Your whole argument as per usual is weak and once again, you start adding weak examples to justify your comments (rameez raja comparision)

Your doing bhangra like imam is some sort of world class ODI player based on him scoring runs in meaningless zero pressure bilateral game in last 2 years.

In current cricket era bilateral ODIs are seen as lowest priority.

T20
Test series
ODI world cups / CT
ODI bilateral

That's how the cricketing world us right now. The world cup will have full strength teams and yet your condoning its ok that if Imam fails, as he's already proven which Is as silly as it gets.

Your some one who openly called Amla a bottle job type player when it came to scoring meaningless runs, yet In case of imam you change your tune and accept it as it fits your narrative.

Imam in ODIs has had zero clutch moments, zero impact moments as well. This is why player like fakhar zaman will be remembered more.

Your whole defence is well by Pakistani standards he's pretty good, who gives a **** to be honest. All players of any era are judged by how the perform against the best and pressure moments, impact in tournament cricket in ODIs.

Bilateral ODIs are now like the equivalent of football International friendlies, no one cares.

Then your weak Argument turns to comparing to rameez raja? * did I even mention rameez? Rameez was a garbage player and was lucky to be part of the 1992 world cup because saeed Anwar was injured.

Then when I bring up compare imam to other teams openers and their clutch moments or impact etc.. you've got nothing to say.

Similar manner your calling this current Pakistan ODI team really good based on Pakistani standards, again judge the team against teams in this era and what it wins under pressure, we will see that in world cup and CT in next 2 years.

Your whole argument will be "oh Pakistan have only 1 world cup before so don't matter if they don't win it"

All your doing is hyping up mediocrity which you do both here on cricket forum and the football forum (before you got humble pie and dissapeared)

One minute your calling Pakistan a talentless country which will not achieve anything in any format, then you over hype stuff based on zero substance.

Let's see come the world cup how many players score heavily and their strike rates, impact in games vs imam. But then you dismiss world cup importance because its clear your whole "imam bravado" will be found to be a scam.

 

[msb314]

Your whole argument as per usual is weak and once again, you start adding weak examples to justify your comments (rameez raja comparision)

Your doing bhangra like imam is some sort of world class ODI player based on him scoring runs in meaningless zero pressure bilateral game in last 2 years.

In current cricket era bilateral ODIs are seen as lowest priority.

T20
Test series
ODI world cups / CT
ODI bilateral

That's how the cricketing world us right now. The world cup will have full strength teams and yet your condoning its ok that if Imam fails, as he's already proven which Is as silly as it gets.

Your some one who openly called Amla a bottle job type player when it came to scoring meaningless runs, yet In case of imam you change your tune and accept it as it fits your narrative.

Imam in ODIs has had zero clutch moments, zero impact moments as well. This is why player like fakhar zaman will be remembered more.

Your whole defence is well by Pakistani standards he's pretty good, who gives a **** to be honest. All players of any era are judged by how the perform against the best and pressure moments, impact in tournament cricket in ODIs.

Bilateral ODIs are now like the equivalent of football International friendlies, no one cares.

Then your weak Argument turns to comparing to rameez raja? * did I even mention rameez? Rameez was a garbage player and was lucky to be part of the 1992 world cup because saeed Anwar was injured.

Then when I bring up compare imam to other teams openers and their clutch moments or impact etc.. you've got nothing to say.

Similar manner your calling this current Pakistan ODI team really good based on Pakistani standards, again judge the team against teams in this era and what it wins under pressure, we will see that in world cup and CT in next 2 years.

Your whole argument will be "oh Pakistan have only 1 world cup before so don't matter if they don't win it"

All your doing is hyping up mediocrity which you do both here on cricket forum and the football forum (before you got humble pie and dissapeared)

One minute your calling Pakistan a talentless country which will not achieve anything in any format, then you over hype stuff based on zero substance.

Let's see come the world cup how many players score heavily and their strike rates, impact in games vs imam. But then you dismiss world cup importance because it’s to clear your whole "imam bravado" will be found to be a scam.

According to you then - everyone should play B or C teams in bilaterals as they are the “lowest priority”. How would we select a WC / CT team if bilateral performances do not matter..

 

[Amjid Javed]

According to you then - everyone should play B or C teams in bilaterals as they are the “lowest priority”. How would we select a WC / CT team if bilateral performances do not matter..

If you actually have a look a lot of bilateral ODI series in recent times you see loads of team not putting full strength teams, or players opting. In some cases there have even been instances of a team playing a test series in one place and then ODIs some where else. England did this when they played tests vs pak / WI and ODI team played Ireland. Australia did it in 2017, when one team was playing Tests in India and another side was playing limited overs fixtures against SL. Australia was supposed to do it again with one side playing limited over cricket against NZ and other side touring SA for Tests but SA tour got postponed, so it never happened. India have sent b and c teams for certain ODI series as well.

Also read what I actually wrote i said that's how the cricketing world is, I also said this in the Pakistan ranked number 1 thread. Even test cricket is being hampered by T20 games.

All these ODI games are now "jazzed up" as qualifying games, to try and get teams to take these seriously.

Back when T20s werent around, teams took bilateral ODI series more seriously, you also had multi team tournaments outside of the ICC world cup and CT. You had the Tri series in Australia every year etc.. you had Tri-series in English summer etc...

Now with so much cricket played, why are players going to care about an ODI series.

NZ didn't send full strength side here, we've seen other series where it is the same.

Come World cup and CT time, teams will pick their strongest teams available as that's all that matters in ODis, these are the pressure series now ODI players are most judged on.

 

[The_Odd_One]

Imam is a part of the strongest top 3 I have seen in a Pakistani team. The batting has come a long way from the days of Hafeez opening the batting with Shahzad and Misbah batting at snails pace in the middle.

 

[YousafTheBeast]

A lot of posters that have said “Imam is one of the best, we used to have Hafeez, Shahzad, Ramiz etc”, if you’re always going to compare players to past failures then how are you ever going to raise the standards?

 

[Amjid Javed]

A lot of posters that have said “Imam is one of the best, we used to have Hafeez, Shahzad, Ramiz etc”, if you’re always going to compare players to past failures then how are you ever going to raise the standards?

Exactly the point I made, comparing to previous trash is a weak argument and the only one that Imam fan boys can come up with.

 

[MenInG]

Pakistan's stranglehold on the MRF Tyres ICC Men’s ODI Batting Rankings has been further strengthened with in-form opener Imam-up Haq the eye-catching mover on the latest update.

Imam hit two half-centuries during the final three matches of the recently-completed ODI series against New Zealand, with the left-hander compiling a stylish 90 in the final game of the series to finish with 174 runs for the series at a healthy average of 58.

It helped Imam jump one place to fourth on the latest ODI batter rankings, with Pakistan now holding on to three of the top four players on the list ahead of this year's ICC Men's Cricket World Cup courtesy of skipper Babar Azam (first) and fellow opener Fakhar Zaman (third).

 

[YousafTheBeast]

Exactly the point I made, comparing to previous trash is a weak argument and the only one that Imam fan boys can come up with.

My only problem with his supporters is that they’re already comparing him to Anwar even though majority of his games are against minnows and top 5 teams playing their B teams.

My problem with supporting Imam is that how can I support someone that takes less risks for the team than the other players? Before the game starts, he’s already made up his mind that he’s going to score at a SR of 85 or lower.

Even if Imam was averaging mid 30’s with a strike rate around 95 consistently against top teams and their first choice bowling attacks he’d be contributing more to the team than he is now with his 50 average and low sr.

 

[Amjid Javed]

My only problem with his supporters is that they’re already comparing him to Anwar even though majority of his games are against minnows and top 5 teams playing their B teams.

My problem with supporting Imam is that how can I support someone that takes less risks for the team than the other players? Before the game starts, he’s already made up his mind that he’s going to score at a SR of 85 or lower.

Even if Imam was averaging mid 30’s with a strike rate around 95 consistently against top teams and their first choice bowling attacks he’d be contributing more to the team than he is now with his 50 average and low sr.

Imam in batting PP is a waste of time, he literally will block the so called good deliveries and just wait for the so called "bad balls". That's not how white ball cricket is now played, most top players look to score runs off every ball, even if sometimes it's just a single.

Then there is the usual slow down when getting close to 50 or 100.

Most ODI openers get to a 100 inside 30 overs, in some cases 25 overs. Imam trundles his way to ones after 35 overs.

Like you said selfish mindset doesn't gey any plaudits from me either.

 

[shamaan]

Imam in batting PP is a waste of time, he literally will block the so called good deliveries and just wait for the so called "bad balls". That's not how white ball cricket is now played, most top players look to score runs off every ball, even if sometimes it's just a single.

Then there is the usual slow down when getting close to 50 or 100.

Most ODI openers get to a 100 inside 30 overs, in some cases 25 overs. Imam trundles his way to ones after 35 overs.

Like you said selfish mindset doesn't gey any plaudits from me either.

It would be good if you told us who has scored 100 inside 30 overs.

 

[Amjid Javed]

It would be good if you told us who has scored 100 inside 30 overs.

Devon Conway vs India
Rohit sharma / subhuman Gill vs NZ (all 3 in same game)

GIll vs NZ

Devon Conway vs Pakistan

Jason Roy vs SA

Fakhar zaman vs NZ

Travis head vs England

Travis head vs Pakistan

There a few for you in last 18 months. There are other 100s also scored by Roy, bauvuma which came up in the 30-31 St over

There the difference in openers playing for team and bumbling along to a hundred after 35/40 overs.

 

[Firebat]

He's a key consistent anchor in the side. Need him to buckle down and go big today.

 

[WicketLord]

 

[MenInG]

Third consecutive half-century for Imam and his 18th ODI fifty!

 

[Amjid Javed]

Imam in batting PP is a waste of time, he literally will block the so called good deliveries and just wait for the so called "bad balls". That's not how white ball cricket is now played, most top players look to score runs off every ball, even if sometimes it's just a single.

Then there is the usual slow down when getting close to 50 or 100.

Most ODI openers get to a 100 inside 30 overs, in some cases 25 overs. Imam trundles his way to ones after 35 overs.

Like you said selfish mindset doesn't gey any plaudits from me either.

Seems I'm right once again.

I'm sure a few big shots will be played once milestone has been reached.

 

[Saj]

Batting for a 100 or for the team to win?

I hope it's the latter!

 

[Saj]

91 off 105 balls chasing 301 to win.

Some will say it was a good knock and he was let down by others.

Some will say he should have been scoring faster than he did.