[VIDEOS] Religion or Atheism?

[Mamoon]

[MENTION=5869]yasir[/MENTION]

I totally agree with you that the vast majority of the people believe in a certain religion only because they were born into it, which is why attempting to prove the superiority of one religion over another is futile. However, if you have to choose between God and no God, you are better off believing in God because of the opportunity cost.

If you choose to believe that there is no God and you are wrong, you will be in a far worse position than a believing person who finds out that all of what he believed in was not true.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I'm sorry, there's a debate over what exactly and where is it happening?

Who are the protagonists?

See above reply to Mamoon. The topic itself probably would require a separate thread if you want to discuss it in more depth.

 

[yasir]

He may not be worthy of you, but he will still punish you. Is that punishment better than believing in Him in this world?

Are you saying you can pretend to believe in religion, just because of fear of punishment, even though all rational/logical and evidence is contrary?? - Isn't God(if he exist as you defined) smart enough to know that you were pretending and actually a closet Atheist, you could be screwed either way... That's why some of my elders don't want to discuss religion, because even if they are convinced logically, they are screwed, because seed of doubt in Faith is harmful...They are scared to discuss religion...

Maybe ignorance is bliss for those people, same arguments were made by Brahams, and all power of authorities, education is not for everyone, it can make them disobedient...But that's my whole point, religion is pushing for uneducated masses, it has thrive when masses were/are ignorant, it does not work very well with doubt, where as Science thrives under doubt...

Another institution that works very with obedience is Army, you cannot build innovation and culture or free thinking in the strict discipline of Army... Most of Armed research in USA is done outside of core Army, for very same reasons...Soldiers are not good thinkers

 

[miandadrules]

He may not be worthy of you, but he will still punish you. Is that punishment better than believing in Him in this world?

The only one that benefits from you believing in God out of fear, is the one on Earth telling you to do what he wants, because he "knows what God wants."

It's strange how so much of what God wants benifits those at the top.

What would it matter to an all powerful being for you to follow a certain belief system, irrespective of your morals.

Are you saying that following a dictorine trumps living a good life?

 

[miandadrules]

It's all debatable, if you do a google search you'll see that it's being debated. Just type in 'is evolution a fact'. Much of it is just semantics which is why I don't want to be drawn into a longer discussion which is detracting from the actual topic.

I would hope with his medical background he wouldn't need a google search to decipher the pro and cons of the theory of evolution. For one, antibiotic resistance is an example of evolution.

But I'm curious about this debate you keep mentioning, as if equally weighted or even weighted in anyway.

Just because one says they disagree with it doesn't make it a debate. It is the substance behind the cases put forward that would give credence to term it a debate.

Who is debating for and against it?

I think it is relevant because if those that oppose it are theologians, because they say it conflicts with their text, then that is hardly a substantive argument and it surely can't be termed a debate.

 

[cricketfanfirst]

[MENTION=5869]yasir[/MENTION]

I totally agree with you that the vast majority of the people believe in a certain religion only because they were born into it, which is why attempting to prove the superiority of one religion over another is futile. However, if you have to choose between God and no God, you are better off believing in God because of the opportunity cost.

If you choose to believe that there is no God and you are wrong, you will be in a far worse position than a believing person who finds out that all of what he believed in was not true.

Mamoon, this type of thinking looks very surprising coming from you, as I think you are a very logical person.

Do you really think, if at all God exists, will he not know that you are believing or pretending to believe him, just to escape from consequences of Hell and not out of true love or absolute faith in him?

I mean how can any "just" God punish an individual who choose not to believe him after he came to such conclusion based on his logical thinking but still led a very decent life?

That's why I feel the quote of Marcus Aurelius in this context is very thoughtful.

 

[shaykh]

I find these 'just in case' discussions weak ...You either believe or you don't ...

What you are actually saying is 'I don't really believe this stuff but in case I am wrong I will say I do'...

It reeks of insincerity ...if there is a God do you not think he can see through you?...

Surely to actually be an adherent to something you have to believe it is correct ...not just say 'What if it is'?...

 

[shaykh]

I guess its worth raising the question of whether 'belief is a choice'...

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I would hope with his medical background he wouldn't need a google search to decipher the pro and cons of the theory of evolution. For one, antibiotic resistance is an example of evolution.

But I'm curious about this debate you keep mentioning, as if equally weighted or even weighted in anyway.

Just because one says they disagree with it doesn't make it a debate. It is the substance behind the cases put forward that would give credence to term it a debate.

Who is debating for and against it?

I think it is relevant because if those that oppose it are theologians, because they say it conflicts with their text, then that is hardly a substantive argument and it surely can't be termed a debate.

I didn't keep mentioning this debate, I mentioned it once in response to your query, neither did I hint that it was weighted one way or the other. It was a quick google search as to the classification of evolution as fact and it may well have been in response to theologian views, I didn't really check it in detail as I believe in evolution personally. My only query was whether it was accepted as fact and that it had been proven categorically. It seems there is some debate over what constitutes a fact, but as I already said that seems to be arguing over the semantics.

 

[Justcrazy]

Good question, not sure if this may exactly explain what is leading a noble life, in my view, in simplest terms, not doing to others the things which you don't want others to do for you. Like stealing, insulting and so on. Leading a noble life, may also mean that in your heart, you know, if the thing you did is right or wrong, may be not 100% on all matters, but I think we usually know if we did a right thing or not.

I admire that quote, as it shows that one need not pray to God in fear of punishment, but doing good because you think it is right...

When you bring religion to show you a moral compass, then that's the individual's prerogative. I have specially observed that religions which preach strict monotheistic outlook tend to be a bit rigid and not readily accepting alternate views. Hence, to me spiritual teachings which give peace to you are better than following a religious way of life, where in you have to pray for certain number of times, or go to a temple on a certain auspicious day and so on.

Different people may have different morality codes , there will be no uniformity.

 

[Justcrazy]

[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] - Looks like God has sealed that loophole bro.

So humanity has no option but to take a risk either way.

Why you taking it in a negative manner ? To recognize our creator is the purpose of this life.

If you have firm belief that there is No god , you can live your life according to your own wishes , no one will force you. It is we who make ultimate decision . With every decision there is always a chance we are taking.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Why you taking it in a negative manner ? To recognize our creator is the purpose of this life.

If you have firm belief that there is No god , you can live your life according to your own wishes , no one will force you. It is we who make ultimate decision . With every decision there is always a chance we are taking.

I never took it in a negative manner brother.

It was just a continuation of a discussion I was having with Mamoon.

To recognize our creator is the purpose of our existence is something I too believe in.

 

[Justcrazy]

The foundation of the faith of any person is based on fear, the fear of getting punished if he is not a believer. Unless you are a prophet, doubts will be there, but the challenge is to have your faith overpower your doubts. Easier said than done, of course.

If you only fear God , then you are simply assuming God to be some kind of dictator.

People worship God because they consider him as creator , and HE deserves that worship.

Yes , God does promise you paradise and eternal life in bliss after that , that is reward for believing in him and doing righteous deeds.

 

[Justcrazy]

I never took it in a negative manner brother.

It was just a continuation of a discussion I was having with Mamoon.

To recognize our creator is the purpose of our existence is something I too believe in.

This is valid for both Muslims and Non Muslims.
Its not that Muslims will enter Paradise , just because they were Muslims. They also need to have firm conviction and faith .

 

[Robert]

He may not be worthy of you, but he will still punish you. Is that punishment better than believing in Him in this world?

I don't think he exists, therefore I do not think I will be punished. I will merely be annihilated, in about 35 years barring accidents. I am no more scared by God than I am by Santa not bringing me presents.

 

[cricketfanfirst]

Different people may have different morality codes , there will be no uniformity.

But, basic decency and moral laws should be more or less be relevant to all, I mean you don't need a religious book to tell you that killing/stealing/cheating is not a right thing to do. Ultimately, the basic decency would be, not to do to others what you don't want others to do to you. May be it is very simplistic definition of what morality means, but I think that may be common denominator for all.

I mean, if you assume that there is a God and he has given a free will to you, then even out of your best and honest effort, based on your logical constructs, you came to the conclusion, that there is no God, then what should be the consequence for exercising such free will?

 

[Justcrazy]

But, basic decency and moral laws should be more or less be relevant to all, I mean you don't need a religious book to tell you that killing/stealing/cheating is not a right thing to do. Ultimately, the basic decency would be, not to do to others what you don't want others to do to you. May be it is very simplistic definition of what morality means, but I think that may be common denominator for all.

I mean, if you assume that there is a God and he has given a free will to you, then even out of your best and honest effort, based on your logical constructs, you came to the conclusion, that there is no God, then what should be the consequence for exercising such free will?

has any book written from where you derived that certain things are wrong and certain things are right ? What is the source that defines and classifies those things into different categories ? For a thief stealing is not wrong , its the way he makes money .

 

[shaykh]

This is valid for both Muslims and Non Muslims.
Its not that Muslims will enter Paradise , just because they were Muslims. They also need to have firm conviction and faith .

Actually non-Muslims will not enter Paradise...morality and good is directly linked with belief in Allah and his Messenger...

 

[cricketfanfirst]

has any book written from where you derived that certain things are wrong and certain things are right ? What is the source that defines and classifies those things into different categories ? For a thief stealing is not wrong , its the way he makes money .

You don't need a religious book to tell you, that if you hit someone, it will hurt him, right? So, in my view, based on common sense, logic and experience, you will be able to arrive at what is wrong and what is right.

 

[cricketfanfirst]

Actually non-Muslims will not enter Paradise...morality and good is directly linked with belief in Allah and his Messenger...

Yeah, I think I have read that too, that it is a prerequisite .... You may do all the other beautiful and decent things in your life, but if you failed to adhere to those, then your fate is sealed and you will be shown no entry into Paradise.

 

[speed]

You don't need a religious book to tell you, that if you hit someone, it will hurt him, right? So, in my view, based on common sense, logic and experience, you will be able to arrive at what is wrong and what is right.

Homosexuality is ok now a days in many countries and apologist for this argue that it is observed in some animal species, therefore it is completely natural, killing of newborn cubs etc is also observed in some animal species therefore there is nothing wrong with killing your child right?

 

[cricketfanfirst]

Homosexuality is ok now a days in many countries and apologist for this argue that it is observed in some animal species, therefore it is completely natural, killing of newborn cubs etc is also observed in some animal species therefore there is nothing wrong with killing your child right?

Good question, but if you feel that God exists and has given you a free will, then why does God expect you to arrive at the already sealed position for safety/bliss of after life?

I simply think, as humans slowly evolved their thinking power, they started to attribute all the unexplained things in the world to God which was easy and convenient, to bring order to society, to reduce chaos, to homogenize society. So, I think these factors led to the development of organized religion/concept of God everywhere.

 

[hadi123]

I find these 'just in case' discussions weak ...You either believe or you don't ...

What you are actually saying is 'I don't really believe this stuff but in case I am wrong I will say I do'...

It reeks of insincerity ...if there is a God do you not think he can see through you?...

Surely to actually be an adherent to something you have to believe it is correct ...not just say 'What if it is'?...

i doubt he can see through you, he can't even stop things like what's happening in Aleppo etc (one of the main reason I think Allah is improbable)

 

[speed]

Good question, but if you feel that God exists and has given you a free will, then why does God expect you to arrive at the already sealed position for safety/bliss of after life?

I simply think, as humans slowly evolved their thinking power, they started to attribute all the unexplained things in the world to God which was easy and convenient, to bring order to society, to reduce chaos, to homogenize society. So, I think these factors led to the development of organized religion/concept of God everywhere.

God does not expect you to arrive at anything, In Islam Some people are created for heaven and others for hell, in the end all are overwhelmed by their fate.

“Verily one of you is gathered in his mothers stomach for forty days, then he is a blood-clot for forty days, then a piece of meat for forty days, then Allah sends an angel ordered with four words: his provision, his end, happy or miserable (1). By Allah, verily one of you may be committing the deeds of the people of Hell, until he is only an arm’s length away, when (it is as if) his destined end overwhelms him (2) and he starts to perform the works of the people of Paradise, and enters it. And verily one of you may be committing the deeds of the people of Paradise, until he is only an arm’s length away, when (it is as if) his destined end overwhelms him and he starts to perform the works of the people of Hell, and enters it.”

[Bukhari]

 

[yasir]

The only one that benefits from you believing in God out of fear, is the one on Earth telling you to do what he wants, because he "knows what God wants."

It's strange how so much of what God wants benifits those at the top.

What would it matter to an all powerful being for you to follow a certain belief system, irrespective of your morals.

Are you saying that following a dictorine trumps living a good life?

Religion evolves as extension and needs of early human societies... On political front it helped the development of central authority, like head of clan, Kings etc, religion has God for that, who is suppose to work like those entities, provide for everybody, do justice etc...Religion works on same principle as Kings used to govern, biggest crime was Apostate to King, masses have to be fearful and obey whatever King desires...Concept of after life was introduced later so that they(authorities) don't have to baby sit people to be fearful, Carrot and Stick of after life will make them faithful for long period of time and without question...

On philosophical front religion was Knowledge 1.0, it try to explain everything(beginning, present, ending). Religion tried to compete with Science(in many places it still does), but experimental or evidence base Science has put religion to shame, now whenever the description of reality in holly books fails or completely off base, apologist say those are metaphors and folklores, should be looked as serious literally truth...Intelligent Design movement in conservative circles is hell bent on providing those stores right, without any luck...

 

[Pakpak]

How do you define what is logical and what isn't. Our intelligence is limited, even the smartest person in World only has the intelligence which is given to him, no more than that.

There are scientic factors mentioned in Quran which people didn't understand at that time or even later, but with better technology scientists have understood now, for instance how a child is formed in the womb.

So if the scientist are atheists doesn't mean they have the correct answers. The correct answers are found in Quran. With time more and more people would find out that.

There are scientific facts, supposed ones anyway, mentioned in every religion. If these books had such science facts then why is it that they did not lead to any scientific discoveries 1400 years ago? Why are the religious people trying to piggy back on science's success? Or are these facts only noticed after the hard work, sweat and blood of people discovering them?

In the future when we discover something new, lo and behold the Muslims and the Christians will claim it was mentioned in their books thousands of years ago yet, unsurprisingly, they forgot to mention this 1400 years ago and are only now claiming the ''win'' after someone else has discovered it. Yeah, right.

 

[cricketfanfirst]

God does not expect you to arrive at anything, In Islam Some people are created for heaven and others for hell, in the end all are overwhelmed by their fate.

[Bukhari]

I see, then religious people usually talk about free will, so in essence it doesn't exist in Islam then?
If the fate is already sealed, then the people are just born to go through the motions, looks very mean...

 

[Justcrazy]

Actually non-Muslims will not enter Paradise...morality and good is directly linked with belief in Allah and his Messenger...

Yes they will not enter , Did I contradict that ?

I was speaking about morality issue not from Islam point of view , the poster said we all have our moralities or each individual can have there own morality and yet there will be uniformity about that. I disagreed with that , until and unless there are guidelines there can be no uniformity.

 

[speed]

I see, then religious people usually talk about free will, so in essence it doesn't exist in Islam then?
If the fate is already sealed, then the people are just born to go through the motions, looks very mean...

Free will in Islam is choosing from the created choices that Allah has created.

 

[Justcrazy]

You don't need a religious book to tell you, that if you hit someone, it will hurt him, right? So, in my view, based on common sense, logic and experience, you will be able to arrive at what is wrong and what is right.

Individuals have different common sense and logic . How will everyone arrive at same conclusion ?

I am a religious person , so I go by religious Books . You claim to be an atheist ( I suppose ) , I would like to know what guidelines you follow , and what is your source. If you say that you follow own guidelines and logic , that is fine , but at the same time the others would also do the same.

 

[Black Zero]

There are scientific facts, supposed ones anyway, mentioned in every religion. If these books had such science facts then why is it that they did not lead to any scientific discoveries 1400 years ago? Why are the religious people trying to piggy back on science's success? Or are these facts only noticed after the hard work, sweat and blood of people discovering them?

In the future when we discover something new, lo and behold the Muslims and the Christians will claim it was mentioned in their books thousands of years ago yet, unsurprisingly, they forgot to mention this 1400 years ago and are only now claiming the ''win'' after someone else has discovered it. Yeah, right.

Actually opposite is the case, few examples:

 

[Justcrazy]

God does not expect you to arrive at anything, In Islam Some people are created for heaven and others for hell, in the end all are overwhelmed by their fate.

[Bukhari]

from here you deduced that there is No free will ?

 

[Justcrazy]

I see, then religious people usually talk about free will, so in essence it doesn't exist in Islam then?
If the fate is already sealed, then the people are just born to go through the motions, looks very mean...

You should have asked some scholar or someone who knows before arriving at conclusions.

 

[cricketfanfirst]

Free will in Islam is choosing from the created choices that Allah has created.

Not sure, I understand...What do you mean by choosing from created choices? You mean choosing different religions/atheism (because this is also created/originated in the World, so I suppose God has created this too) Or any other aspects such as good/evil... But, if the fate is already sealed, then there is no loss/gain in choosing anything, right? I mean free will in this scenario, doesn't seem to play any role in the ultimate result, as your fate is already sealed.

 

[Justcrazy]

Free will in Islam is choosing from the created choices that Allah has created.

There is absolute free will in Islam , people have not explained the matter of fate properly. That is why confusion.

 

[cricketfanfirst]

You should have asked some scholar or someone who knows before arriving at conclusions.

Hey, I know you are a sincere follower of the path you have chosen and I respect you as a poster. You are always level headed and composed, which is what I like about you as a poster.

Please note, I have spent a lot of time thinking on all these matters, and came to the conclusion that just lead a good life and just think of that Marcus Aurelius's quote and be happy and content.

 

[speed]

There is absolute free will in Islam , people have not explained the matter of fate properly. That is why confusion.

What do you mean by absolute free will?, is man the creator of his own actions?

 

[shaykh]

Not sure, I understand...What do you mean by choosing from created choices? You mean choosing different religions/atheism (because this is also created/originated in the World, so I suppose God has created this too) Or any other aspects such as good/evil... But, if the fate is already sealed, then there is no loss/gain in choosing anything, right? I mean free will in this scenario, doesn't seem to play any role in the ultimate result, as your fate is already sealed.

Free will was quite a big discussion in the early days of Islam...created a schism in fact...

The most simple argument although I have counterpoints...Allah gives individuals free will to make choices...he however being all knowing is already aware of what you will choose so whilst your fate is sealed because of Allah knowing what you will choose you still exercised free will to make those choices...

 

[speed]

Not sure, I understand...What do you mean by choosing from created choices? You mean choosing different religions/atheism (because this is also created/originated in the World, so I suppose God has created this too) Or any other aspects such as good/evil... But, if the fate is already sealed, then there is no loss/gain in choosing anything, right? I mean free will in this scenario, doesn't seem to play any role in the ultimate result, as your fate is already sealed.

God creates multiple choices for a person at any moment in time, and they choose from any of those created choices that is free will in Islam.

 

[cricketfanfirst]

Free will was quite a big discussion in the early days of Islam...created a schism in fact...

The most simple argument although I have counterpoints...Allah gives individuals free will to make choices...he however being all knowing is already aware of what you will choose so whilst your fate is sealed because of Allah knowing what you will choose you still exercised free will to make those choices...

Absolutely, this is what I'm very uncomfortable with regards to free will....If they say free will, and with exercising of that free will, you came to a conclusion that God doesn't exist, but lead a good life, still the doors of Paradise are shut for you... This to me is a "vengeful God" who wants you to acknowledge him even when you have exercised a free will.

This concept of free will and already ordained fate are mutually contradictory concepts and it is very difficult for anyone to believe in both of them.

No wonder, as you say this might have caused a schism in early history...because for anyone who applies a degree of rationality, they are at loggerheads with one another...

 

[Justcrazy]

Hey, I know you are a sincere follower of the path you have chosen and I respect you as a poster. You are always level headed and composed, which is what I like about you as a poster.

Please note, I have spent a lot of time thinking on all these matters, and came to the conclusion that just lead a good life and just think of that Marcus Aurelius's quote and be happy and content.

You have full right to choose whatever you consider to be right. In matters of religion there is absolutely no compulsion.

 

[Justcrazy]

What do you mean by absolute free will?, is man the creator of his own actions?

I meant that Humans are capable of choosing how they want to act in different situations in life. The choice is there , and end of the day , they will be rewarded or punished according to what they chose.

 

[Justcrazy]

Absolutely, this is what I'm very uncomfortable with regards to free will....If they say free will, and with exercising of that free will, you came to a conclusion that God doesn't exist, but lead a good life, still the doors of Paradise are shut for you... This to me is a "vengeful God" who wants you to acknowledge him even when you have exercised a free will.

This concept of free will and already ordained fate are mutually contradictory concepts and it is very difficult for anyone to believe in both of them.

No wonder, as you say this might have caused a schism in early history...because for anyone who applies a degree of rationality, they are at loggerheads with one another...

You are living a good life , by the definition of good life that you made yourself. For different people good life can imply different things.

God is the creator , he is the one who will make rules and regulations. Disbelieving him is equivalent to treason in a kingdom. rejecting his sovereignty.

Firstly , you got to believe in a creator , that is first step . All this while I am not talking about Islam only. That is why firstly you need to recognize the existence of creator for all created things . After that only one can look into different religions.

In Islam ordained fate as you called , is called lawh E mahfuz , its a tablet in which everything is written down. This indicates and shows the Perfect knowledge of God about past , present and future. It does not mean that since it is written down , we are forced to act like that.

It was written down because God knew we will make those choices in those situations.

 

[cricketfanfirst]

You are living a good life , by the definition of good life that you made yourself. For different people good life can imply different things.

God is the creator , he is the one who will make rules and regulations. Disbelieving him is equivalent to treason in a kingdom. rejecting his sovereignty.

Firstly , you got to believe in a creator , that is first step . All this while I am not talking about Islam only. That is why firstly you need to recognize the existence of creator for all created things . After that only one can look into different religions.

In Islam ordained fate as you called , is called lawh E mahfuz , its a tablet in which everything is written down. This indicates and shows the Perfect knowledge of God about past , present and future. It does not mean that since it is written down , we are forced to act like that.

It was written down because God knew we will make those choices in those situations.

Doesn't it mean the fate is already sealed, we merely being born are just going through the motions?

One one hand, if we say that God already knew what choices we will make, then what is the point of free will, because anyhow, God knows what choices we will make right?

In my view, application of any logic in matters of free will is going to fail.

 

[speed]

i doubt he can see through you, he can't even stop things like what's happening in Aleppo etc (one of the main reason I think Allah is improbable)

Through calamity many people return to Allah, The most comfortable of societies are the most godless, and the most poor the most God conscious.

 

[Justcrazy]

Doesn't it mean the fate is already sealed, we merely being born are just going through the motions?

One one hand, if we say that God already knew what choices we will make, then what is the point of free will, because anyhow, God knows what choices we will make right?

In my view, application of any logic in matters of free will is going to fail.

I give you an example. Suppose you can go to future , you see certain events happening , you jot that down . You come back to present , you have your notes. Now you know what events will happen , but does that mean that you have triggered them ? You knowledge of those events does not mean that you are making them happen.

Now if God already knows what will happen , he can punish and reward straightaway . God knowing what will happen , does not mean we also know , for us it is uncertain . A worst person may change before death , we can never know.

Now if God had straightaway put people in heaven and hell , the people in Hell would not have liked , because they would want a chance , the life is the chance provided to each individual , what they do about it is there personal choice. But end of the day , they will be judged according to that .

 

[Justcrazy]

Through calamity many people return to Allah, The most comfortable of societies are the most godless, and the most poor the most God conscious.

Allah swt never promises comfort in this world , when Allah is speaking about victory its not confined to this life only , its very small , hardly 60 - 80 years . This does not matter in the sight of Allah. Allah is speaking about eternal life .

 

[KingKhanWC]

Its easy to refute religious texts mate logically google is not even needed this is the reason for doubt creeping in so many believers off late from any religion because they are not able to understand logic of things they are performing in the name of religion ,but the forum policy doesn't allow us to discuss the same so lets leave it at that.Its your faith don't put it on pedestal of rationalism,it will not pass,rather keep it separate and it will serve the purpose that its supposed to.

If it is EASY as you claim, you only need to refute the understanding or belief associated with the text, you don't need to post the text itself. I don't think you can but please prove me wrong.

 

[KingKhanWC]

I agree that Evolution Theory does not rule out the idea of a creator, though it strongly implies that the creator is a lot more distant and abstracted from its creation than many would like.

If you accept the idea of God then you are saying that something improbable (the Universe) was created by something more improbable (God). Then you are forced to ask what more improbable thing than God created God. And so on. Turtles all the way down....

What you call "Chance" is the more parsimonious explanation. We just happen to be in a universe where the four forces are in a certain proportion to each other. It they were not, we would not be here to talk about it. Then everything becomes possible.

It is not improbable that space gas will coallesce into stars, it is inevitable given the four forces.

Some of these stars will have planets, inevitably.

Some of these planets will be in the Goldilocks Zone, inevitably.

Some of these planets in the Goldilocks Zone will have organic miolecules, inevitably. On some planets, there compounds will evolve themself into a self-replicating molecule such as DNA and RNA. Then life will emerge, inevitably.

Given long enough, and where no cosmic collision such as a large asteroid strike takes place, that life will become sentient, inevitably.

It depends what you feel the attributes of God are. In your view if he created a beginning , he also must have been created at some point but the we are told the laws of the universe do not apply to him. The term Creator means he had no beginning, time and space do no apply to him.

I was reffering to the beginning of the universe, the big bang or whatever your measurement of the beginning is. From what I have read there had to be so many things to go right for the big bang to take place. It's either a matter of random chance or a piece of creation by a supreme being whose powers we can never comprehend.

I would go with chance myself if there wasn't any communication by another force which could have created everything. The Quran answers all these questions and explains the reasons for why we are here, I'm happy I have accepted this and glad to have been given the opportunity to understand what I believe is the truth of our existence and what will happen after this life.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Through calamity many people return to Allah, The most comfortable of societies are the most godless, and the most poor the most God conscious.

Are you trying to say that for you to be attracted to God you have to be bhooka nanga ??


I don't know on which side you are.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

i doubt he can see through you, he can't even stop things like what's happening in Aleppo etc (one of the main reason I think Allah is improbable)

If Allah has to interfere In worldly affairs, people's misuse of power, weapons, money etc than what Test are his creatures going through ?


This doesn't kill concept of Free Will ?



Than for what we will be judged if we can't exercise our Good and Bad powers ?

 

[Black Zero]

Through calamity many people return to Allah, The most comfortable of societies are the most godless, and the most poor the most God conscious.

Very true, specially true with monotheistic religions, from old bronze age to iron age to around 500bce, whenever israel made transition from paganism to monotheism, they went down in every aspect and eventually got defeated, and whenever they made transition towards polytheism they prospered.

This could be the reason that paganism is an inclusive system while monotheism is an exclusive system.
And due to exclusiveness, there is inherent rigidity in it, which does not allow it to quickly change to ever changing real world.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Islam is the only true absolutist religion in the world, i.e. if you are a non-Muslim, you are bound to go to Hell even if you have lived a very righteous life. Christianity on the other hand can also be considered absolutist to a certain degree, but there are grey areas, and recently the Pope claimed that atheists can go to Heaven as well. You will never see a Muslim cleric claim something like that, because it goes against the Islamic belief that Islam is the absolute truth and everyone else is misguided.

Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism, Jainism, Baha'ism etc. are philosophical religions where all paths lead to God, so it doesn't matter if you don't follow these religions as long as you lead a good life. Similarly, If after death, you find out that Yahweh (Jewish God) is the true God, then you are still not screwed because Judaism does not focus on afterlife and claim that you will be rewarded for your good deeds and punished for bad deeds irrespective of your religion. However, there is no official dogma on their afterlife beliefs.

From where have you inferred this ? If you believe in somebody's interpratation than please post.

If a person is a non believer of He Pbuh but believes in all other 1.24 lac minus 1 prophet than He is an overall disbeliever ? How ? Why ?


If Moses As, Jesus As were not muslims than why they did not object infront of Allah that why we pray behind a Muslim Prophet when we are not Muslims ourselves ? In case if they were Muslim than how their righteous followers were not Muslims ? If they were or are counted as Muslim by Allah than why would Allah throw them in hell ?


Why can't a righteous Hindu go to Heaven ?

Will Allah let Muslims stand on heaven's door asking them to stop any non believer of He Pbuh not to enter heaven ?


If a person X is righteous in Allah's eyes has lesser baggage of sins and more of virtues than why would a JUST God Loving God throw him in hell ?



If a person who gets convinced about Islam either through Allah's guidance, or through self study and analysis finds Islam as ultimate and true but than gets trapped by Sattan and despite him having no physical or finacial threat or no threat of losing children etc still doesnt bow down doesnt enter Islam than Allah may treat him differently as her his justice system.


But if say a Hindu doesnt get convinced. He tried but his brain did not agree than what's his mistake ? Not being born in a muslim family is his mistake ?


What if Hinduism is a mono thiestic belief system and Hindu's arent allowed extra marital relations, Hindu's are told to treat others with honesty, care, love and be just, earn through honest means. That why such a Hindu cannot enter Heaven ? wouldn't he be judged as per his own constitution ie religious scripture ?

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

According to Islam, are all non-Muslims going to hell ?


The short answer is ‘No’.


In Islam the decision of who goes to heaven and who goes to hell is left entirely to God as He alone knows people’s hearts and is aware of their deeds.

What Islam claims is that it is the perfect religion for mankind and a religion for all time and all people.

This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favour upon you and have chosen for you Islam as religion.
(Ch5. V.3)

It therefore certainly claims to offer the best guidance – which if followed will lead to paradise - but simply being a Muslim is not enough to enter paradise. It is the righteous who are rewarded by God, who may well be Muslims, Christians, Jews etc.


The Qur’an states that people who do good deeds will be rewarded for them:


For those who do good deeds, there shall be the best reward and yet more blessings.
(Ch.10: V.27)


So it leaves it open to God as to who will be judged worthy of entering paradise.
Islam also tells us the qualities of the people who will enter paradise:

Surely, those, who believe and do good deeds, and observe Prayer and pay the Zakat, shall have their reward from their Lord, and no fear shall come on them, nor shall they grieve.
(Ch.2: V.278)

And if they had believed and acted righteously, better surely, would have been their reward from Allah, had they but known!
(Ch.2: V.104)

In the above two examples, those who believe in God, do good deeds, act righteously, observe prayer and give to charity are promised to be rewarded by God – and this may include the ultimate reward of being admitted to Paradise in the Hereafter.

Surely the believers and the Jews and the Christians and the Sabians- whichever party from among these truly believes in Allah and the last day and does good deeds – shall have their reward with their Lord and no fear shall come upon them, nor shall they grieve
(Ch.2: V.63)

If a person rejects Islam after knowing Islam and fully understanding its truth he will be asked about it by God. Otherwise he will be judged according to his own religion or his understanding of right and wrong.

 

[yasir]

I give you an example. Suppose you can go to future , you see certain events happening , you jot that down . You come back to present , you have your notes. Now you know what events will happen , but does that mean that you have triggered them ? You knowledge of those events does not mean that you are making them happen.

Now if God already knows what will happen , he can punish and reward straightaway . God knowing what will happen , does not mean we also know , for us it is uncertain . A worst person may change before death , we can never know.

Now if God had straightaway put people in heaven and hell , the people in Hell would not have liked , because they would want a chance , the life is the chance provided to each individual , what they do about it is there personal choice. But end of the day , they will be judged according to that .

Future example you gave is different fron what God can do. Because he is architect of everything, at times he claims nothing moves without his permission. Other times he puts something in the heart (although heart has nothing to do with emotions and thinking) of people so they always disbelief. It's not clear if he really is neutral umpire, more like Shukar Rana

Even if there is such an authority like God, I don't get why we have to pray to him, why we have to believe in him?? - if I create something, main reason I need royality is because I have limited resources and want to feed myself and my family. Otherwise I would not care if I am appreciated every day of the week by all my robots all the time.

Making me, myself as most important thing and reason to create human is very absurd thing. There is no serious reasoning of such thought process other than political one, that's how kings used to behave, kneeing to king was most important thing for the surrival of kingdom. Here fear of God is important for God's name to survive. Bilwal has to changed his name to Bhutto to cash in the royality of Grand father, here God name has to be used to have army of loyal followers forever down the generations. How people will remember God's name? - Make it most important and fearful thing in the world. This is political scam of that era, hard to sell it now. It's hard to create new religion in this era.

 

[Mamoon]

From where have you inferred this ? If you believe in somebody's interpratation than please post.

If a person is a non believer of He Pbuh but believes in all other 1.24 lac minus 1 prophet than He is an overall disbeliever ? How ? Why ?


If Moses As, Jesus As were not muslims than why they did not object infront of Allah that why we pray behind a Muslim Prophet when we are not Muslims ourselves ? In case if they were Muslim than how their righteous followers were not Muslims ? If they were or are counted as Muslim by Allah than why would Allah throw them in hell ?


Why can't a righteous Hindu go to Heaven ?

Will Allah let Muslims stand on heaven's door asking them to stop any non believer of He Pbuh not to enter heaven ?


If a person X is righteous in Allah's eyes has lesser baggage of sins and more of virtues than why would a JUST God Loving God throw him in hell ?



If a person who gets convinced about Islam either through Allah's guidance, or through self study and analysis finds Islam as ultimate and true but than gets trapped by Sattan and despite him having no physical or finacial threat or no threat of losing children etc still doesnt bow down doesnt enter Islam than Allah may treat him differently as her his justice system.


But if say a Hindu doesnt get convinced. He tried but his brain did not agree than what's his mistake ? Not being born in a muslim family is his mistake ?


What if Hinduism is a mono thiestic belief system and Hindu's arent allowed extra marital relations, Hindu's are told to treat others with honesty, care, love and be just, earn through honest means. That why such a Hindu cannot enter Heaven ? wouldn't he be judged as per his own constitution ie religious scripture ?

This is the widely accepted belief. You cannot enter Paradise unless you accept Allah swt as your God and Muhammad PBUH as his final messenger.

This is what makes you a Muslim, and non-Muslims are not allowed to go Heaven. You of course are free to disagree and dispute with this belief as per your Qadiani ideology, but I'm speaking from the orthodox Islam perspective.

You can ask any orthodox Maulvi and he will tell you that non-Muslims cannot enter Heaven, except for those who have never heard of Islam or the Jews and Christians before the Muhammad PBUH.

Personally speaking, I have always had issues with this belief, but I am only explaining what the orthodox belief is rather than what my opinion is. I do believe that we are Muslims only because we were born in a Muslim family and society, and thus grew up believing that our faith is the true one.

So obviously if God was just in making me a Muslim, he was unjust in making someone else a Christian or a Hindu. I got lucky and he got unlucky, because it is very, very difficult to leave one's faith. However, this goes against the orthodox belief which states that if a non-Muslim was aware of Islam and still rejected it, he will be a dweller of Hell.

 

[Mamoon]

Mamoon, this type of thinking looks very surprising coming from you, as I think you are a very logical person.

Do you really think, if at all God exists, will he not know that you are believing or pretending to believe him, just to escape from consequences of Hell and not out of true love or absolute faith in him?

I mean how can any "just" God punish an individual who choose not to believe him after he came to such conclusion based on his logical thinking but still led a very decent life?

That's why I feel the quote of Marcus Aurelius in this context is very thoughtful.

As I said before, this is not how I think. However, this is my attempt to help anyone who cannot choose between Islam and Atheism. The risk/opportunity cost of dying as an Atheist is far greater than the risk/opportunity cost of dying as Muslim.

As far as I am concerned, I have my own reasons why I believe in Allah swt. Reasons that I cannot use to convince other people to believe in Him, because if I do I will be accused of being a liar.

There was a point in my life where I was on the brink of becoming an Atheist, then certain things happened which brought be closer to Allah swt and now I am completely convinced of his existence and presence. However, as I said, I do not have the power to convince others and therefore, I do not try to preach Islam and I do not try to prove that it is the absolute truth.

 

[Mamoon]

Are you saying you can pretend to believe in religion, just because of fear of punishment, even though all rational/logical and evidence is contrary?? - Isn't God(if he exist as you defined) smart enough to know that you were pretending and actually a closet Atheist, you could be screwed either way... That's why some of my elders don't want to discuss religion, because even if they are convinced logically, they are screwed, because seed of doubt in Faith is harmful...They are scared to discuss religion...

Maybe ignorance is bliss for those people, same arguments were made by Brahams, and all power of authorities, education is not for everyone, it can make them disobedient...But that's my whole point, religion is pushing for uneducated masses, it has thrive when masses were/are ignorant, it does not work very well with doubt, where as Science thrives under doubt...

Another institution that works very with obedience is Army, you cannot build innovation and culture or free thinking in the strict discipline of Army... Most of Armed research in USA is done outside of core Army, for very same reasons...Soldiers are not good thinkers

The only one that benefits from you believing in God out of fear, is the one on Earth telling you to do what he wants, because he "knows what God wants."

It's strange how so much of what God wants benifits those at the top.

What would it matter to an all powerful being for you to follow a certain belief system, irrespective of your morals.

Are you saying that following a dictorine trumps living a good life?

Fear is the foundation of faith in Islam. We try to avoid things that are not allowed in Islam because we are afraid of the consequences in the afterlife.

Most of the Muslims live in that fear for the rest of their lives and they do not question things because it weakens their faith. That is why your average Mullah will discourage you from thinking and simply subscribe to the belief that 'Allah knows best' and our knowledge is limited.

However, if your faith in Him reaches a level where that fear converts into devotion and obsession, or even love, then that is the point where you can consider yourself a true Muslim. As for the rest of us, we believe in Islam only because we were born to Muslim parents, and the fear of getting punished is what keeps us in line.

 

[Mamoon]

It's all debatable, if you do a google search you'll see that it's being debated. Just type in 'is evolution a fact'. Much of it is just semantics which is why I don't want to be drawn into a longer discussion which is detracting from the actual topic.

Google is not a credible source when it comes to talking science. I speak from an academic perspective. If we rely on Google than the Quran is a proven scientific miracle, but it is not.

 

[Mamoon]

Let me post a small table, (assuming we have no confirmation about any specific religion being wrong and we must have to make call), which shows that blindly picking of islam (and also blindly picking one correct, out of 72 sects, would not increase your odds):


View attachment 71963


Lets first consider your case A:

- Wasting time (which is priceless) and your hard earned money is a BIG deal breaker as you have limited time and money that can be spent on something useful. Plus, its definitely more than an hour per day cause I live in a religious family (for an average adult life, it's more than 25000 hours). Plus, even one is healthy he had to act weird (read: Schizophrenia) and assume invisible (read: imaginary) entities like jinn, angels, Satan/Devil, God. Plus, assume He is watching you all the time, which is creepy. One can never have a private moment.

The premise of your argument is flawed because you are falsely assuming that all religions are absolutist in nature, but apart from Islam and to an extent Christianity, no religion is, which means that if you die as a Muslim but find out that Yahweh or Zeus is the real God, you will not be thrown into Hell as long as your good deeds outweigh your bad deeds.

This risk/opportunity cost theory applies best to Muslims, because you are either a Muslim or a non-Muslim, and non-Muslims cannot enter Heaven. So if you have to bet between dying a Muslim or an Atheist, the former is by far the safer option.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Google is not a credible source when it comes to talking science. I speak from an academic perspective. If we rely on Google than the Quran is a proven scientific miracle, but it is not.

I agree, but since it wasn't that important a point to determine how evolution was to be termed in scientific terms Google provided enough information if I wanted to pursue it. In the context of the discussion I didn't think it was that important, especially since the religious folk here aren't disputing evolution anyway.

 

[speed]

Are you trying to say that for you to be attracted to God you have to be bhooka nanga ??


I don't know on which side you are.

No but in general you can observe this.

 

[speed]

This is the widely accepted belief. You cannot enter Paradise unless you accept Allah swt as your God and Muhammad PBUH as his final messenger.

This is what makes you a Muslim, and non-Muslims are not allowed to go Heaven. You of course are free to disagree and dispute with this belief as per your Qadiani ideology, but I'm speaking from the orthodox Islam perspective.

You can ask any orthodox Maulvi and he will tell you that non-Muslims cannot enter Heaven, except for those who have never heard of Islam or the Jews and Christians before the Muhammad PBUH.

Personally speaking, I have always had issues with this belief, but I am only explaining what the orthodox belief is rather than what my opinion is. I do believe that we are Muslims only because we were born in a Muslim family and society, and thus grew up believing that our faith is the true one.

So obviously if God was just in making me a Muslim, he was unjust in making someone else a Christian or a Hindu. I got lucky and he got unlucky, because it is very, very difficult to leave one's faith. However, this goes against the orthodox belief which states that if a non-Muslim was aware of Islam and still rejected it, he will be a dweller of Hell.

Deviant objections to the fact that Allaah has no obligations
Some deviants say: Yes, it is rationally possible for Allah to do wrong, or Ţħulm, because the Prophet said of Allah in Hadeeth Qudsi, ‘I have forbidden oppression on myself’. He could only forbid oppression if it was possible for Him to commit.

Answer: The ĥadiitħ qudsiyy saying they are referring to was narrated by Muslim, and is as follows:

إِنِّي حَرَّمْت الظُّلْم عَلَى نَفْسِي

If translated literally, it would be: ‘I have forbidden injustice upon myself’

The literal translation implies that injustice would in principle be possible, because otherwise there would be nothing to forbid. However, this literal meaning is impossible, because of the meaning of injustice. It either means:

to cross the rules that have been imposed upon one, or
to deal in someone else’s property without a right.
These meanings cannot be true of Aļļaah to begin with, they have no relevance to Him Himself, so how could they become forbidden?! In other words, those who claim that it is rationally possible are going to have to say that He has someone that can impose rules upon Him, or that there is a property that is not His! We ask Aļļaah for protection against such heresy.

That is why An-Nawawiyy commented on this ĥadiitħ saying:

The meaning is ‘Aļļaah is clear of and above the imperfection of injustice,’ because injustice is impossible with regards to Him. How could he cross any rule imposed upon him, and there is no one above Him that He would have to obey?! How could He deal in the property of someone else, when all of the world is His property and under His might?! The origin of the world ĥarrama (translated above as forbid) is “to be prevented,” so the meaning of “being clear of the imperfection” was expressed with the word “forbidden,” because one aspect of its meaning is similar to “being clear of”, namely the meaning of non-existence. (I.e. what is prevented does not exist, just as what one is clear of does not exist.)

https://sunnianswers.wordpress.com/2011/08/23/744/

 

[uberkoen]

Much of the Christian world believes that a talking snake convinced Adam and Eve to eat a piece of fruit forbidden by God, who then became so angry that he condemned all humankind to be born with what Christians call “original sin.” But then came the “good news”: God’s sinless son, Jesus, who is also God, paid a brief visit to earth to redeem us for that sin committed by Adam and Eve. So God sacrificed himself to himself to save us from himself, and when we die we will be rewarded or punished for eternity based on whether or not we believe this unbelievable story.

Orthodox Judaism teaches that sin is violating any of the 613 Commandments found in the Hebrew Bible. Some seem reasonable (don’t murder, steal, or lie), some seem silly (don’t mix wool and cotton; don’t eat meat with milk), and some impossible (offering animal sacrifices at a Temple in Jerusalem that no longer exists).

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

This is the widely accepted belief. You cannot enter Paradise unless you accept Allah swt as your God and Muhammad PBUH as his final messenger.

This is what makes you a Muslim, and non-Muslims are not allowed to go Heaven. You of course are free to disagree and dispute with this belief as per your Qadiani ideology, but I'm speaking from the orthodox Islam perspective.

You can ask any orthodox Maulvi and he will tell you that non-Muslims cannot enter Heaven, except for those who have never heard of Islam or the Jews and Christians before the Muhammad PBUH.

Personally speaking, I have always had issues with this belief, but I am only explaining what the orthodox belief is rather than what my opinion is. I do believe that we are Muslims only because we were born in a Muslim family and society, and thus grew up believing that our faith is the true one.

So obviously if God was just in making me a Muslim, he was unjust in making someone else a Christian or a Hindu. I got lucky and he got unlucky, because it is very, very difficult to leave one's faith. However, this goes against the orthodox belief which states that if a non-Muslim was aware of Islam and still rejected it, he will be a dweller of Hell.

Well for having such an un natural belief naturally a sane person will have an issue.


That's why Mullah's Islam is not equal to Islam and that's why there are thousands of issues due to this.


Well just like you can use brain I have few brain cells aswell. These brain cells ask me how He Pbuh defined a Muslim ? Well sorry going by Saha e Satta Ahadees Prophet Pbuh is on record for defining a Muslim and I am sorry I don't get a single definition of He Pbuh which matches Mullah's definition. So I will side with Prophet's definition not Mullah's as that appeals me more and makes sense.


In your lifetime uptil now only a person or two like Ghamdi have stood up to defy these Mullah's. Sadly he had to run away to save his life.


But as we age there will be more and more people raising voices and challenging Orthodox Mullah.


I am glad I got rid of Ulema e Soo's Islam and their interpretations. Atleast I do not have to ingulf Un natural inhumane philosophies, believes, interpretations down my neck. So my body doesn't choke.


If God is unjust than I would better leave God first and any religion or belief will go with it. I don't need an unjust God who is tossing coins to make some of his creatures lucky and some unlucky wrt belief.

 

[tonmoy]

Well for having such an un natural belief naturally a sane person will have an issue.


That's why Mullah's Islam is not equal to Islam and that's why there are thousands of issues due to this.


Well just like you can use brain I have few brain cells aswell. These brain cells ask me how He Pbuh defined a Muslim ? Well sorry going by Saha e Satta Ahadees Prophet Pbuh is on record for defining a Muslim and I am sorry I don't get a single definition of He Pbuh which matches Mullah's definition. So I will side with Prophet's definition not Mullah's as that appeals me more and makes sense.


In your lifetime uptil now only a person or two like Ghamdi have stood up to defy these Mullah's. Sadly he had to run away to save his life.


But as we age there will be more and more people raising voices and challenging Orthodox Mullah.


I am glad I got rid of Ulema e Soo's Islam and their interpretations. Atleast I do not have to ingulf Un natural inhumane philosophies, believes, interpretations down my neck. So my body doesn't choke.


If God is unjust than I would better leave God first and any religion or belief will go with it. I don't need an unjust God who is tossing coins to make some of his creatures lucky and some unlucky wrt belief.

https://quran.com/98:6

From Quran
SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
Indeed, they who disbelieved among the People of the Scripture and the polytheists will be in the fire of Hell, abiding eternally therein. Those are the worst of creatures.

...

I am not sure what you define as a muslim, but even if someone like me does all the good deeds in the world but decides against believing in Allah than I am destined for hell.

 

[Pakpak]

https://quran.com/98:6

From Quran
SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
Indeed, they who disbelieved among the People of the Scripture and the polytheists will be in the fire of Hell, abiding eternally therein. Those are the worst of creatures.

...

I am not sure what you define as a muslim, but even if someone like me does all the good deeds in the world but decides against believing in Allah than I am destined for hell.

Hence the illogicialness of religion.

I, a person who has done no murder, no killings, no thefts would burn in hell for eternity under severe torture while a murderer, or rapist who destroyed lives would end up in heaven just because of his religious belief. If someone ran a state with such thinking they'd be branded medieval and insane, but because its God, hey, its all good. He works in mysterious ways.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

According to Islam, are all non-Muslims going to hell ?


The short answer is ‘No’.


In Islam the decision of who goes to heaven and who goes to hell is left entirely to God as He alone knows people’s hearts and is aware of their deeds.

What Islam claims is that it is the perfect religion for mankind and a religion for all time and all people.

This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favour upon you and have chosen for you Islam as religion.
(Ch5. V.3)

It therefore certainly claims to offer the best guidance – which if followed will lead to paradise - but simply being a Muslim is not enough to enter paradise. It is the righteous who are rewarded by God, who may well be Muslims, Christians, Jews etc.


The Qur’an states that people who do good deeds will be rewarded for them:


For those who do good deeds, there shall be the best reward and yet more blessings.
(Ch.10: V.27)


So it leaves it open to God as to who will be judged worthy of entering paradise.
Islam also tells us the qualities of the people who will enter paradise:

Surely, those, who believe and do good deeds, and observe Prayer and pay the Zakat, shall have their reward from their Lord, and no fear shall come on them, nor shall they grieve.
(Ch.2: V.278)

And if they had believed and acted righteously, better surely, would have been their reward from Allah, had they but known!
(Ch.2: V.104)

In the above two examples, those who believe in God, do good deeds, act righteously, observe prayer and give to charity are promised to be rewarded by God – and this may include the ultimate reward of being admitted to Paradise in the Hereafter.

Surely the believers and the Jews and the Christians and the Sabians- whichever party from among these truly believes in Allah and the last day and does good deeds – shall have their reward with their Lord and no fear shall come upon them, nor shall they grieve
(Ch.2: V.63)

If a person rejects Islam after knowing Islam and fully understanding its truth he will be asked about it by God. Otherwise he will be judged according to his own religion or his understanding of right and wrong.

[MENTION=138952]tonmoy[/MENTION] [MENTION=21699]Pakpak[/MENTION]

This is my faith. For further clarity watch Ghamdi's two videos. Would be grateful if you could post aswell.


I agree with Ghamdi on this. His argument is based from Quran and it is rational and makes sense.


Sorry I don't agree with Orthodox Mullah. They are termed worst creatures on Earth by none other than Prophet Muhammad Pbuh himself. Refer to hadith. And indeed they with their adulterated doctrines, interpretations, concocted philosophies are doing disservice to Islam defaming Islam. It's the same Mullah Ulema e Soo who instigate voilence, hatred, persecution, extremism, terrorism and mislead youth, brainwash them, mislead them and make them worldly failures. So I don't agree with them and their terrible explanations and justifications.


If you strive in way of Allah honestly sincerely passionately . Obey his commandments. Than if you experience him come back. If not than stay where you are. Whatever your brain emotions cognition tell you do that. You have a free-will wrt your faith or no faith.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Hence the illogicialness of religion.

I, a person who has done no murder, no killings, no thefts would burn in hell for eternity under severe torture while a murderer, or rapist who destroyed lives would end up in heaven just because of his religious belief. If someone ran a state with such thinking they'd be branded medieval and insane, but because its God, hey, its all good. He works in mysterious ways.

This is what Mullah's Islam say. This is not Islam.

 

[tonmoy]

Hence the illogicialness of religion.

I, a person who has done no murder, no killings, no thefts would burn in hell for eternity under severe torture while a murderer, or rapist who destroyed lives would end up in heaven just because of his religious belief. If someone ran a state with such thinking they'd be branded medieval and insane, but because its God, hey, its all good. He works in mysterious ways.

My best friend is an atheist (hindu family), my wife is agnostic, my dad is a muslim but hardly ever prays.
My mom and sister are religious to certain degree. I figured, I cant enjoy heaven if some of my loved ones are destined for hell. So another reason I do not mind being an atheist.


Also I am from Bangladesh, I can only write these things hiding behind a keyboard, If I spoke out openly I will have to say goodbye to the idea of ever visiting the country again no matter how much sense I make.

 

[speed]

https://quran.com/98:6

From Quran
SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
Indeed, they who disbelieved among the People of the Scripture and the polytheists will be in the fire of Hell, abiding eternally therein. Those are the worst of creatures.

...

I am not sure what you define as a muslim, but even if someone like me does all the good deeds in the world but decides against believing in Allah than I am destined for hell.

Hence the illogicialness of religion.

I, a person who has done no murder, no killings, no thefts would burn in hell for eternity under severe torture while a murderer, or rapist who destroyed lives would end up in heaven just because of his religious belief. If someone ran a state with such thinking they'd be branded medieval and insane, but because its God, hey, its all good. He works in mysterious ways.

Good deeds does not guarantee a person paradise, basic Belief in Islam.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/EJqxs_tzhfE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[Pakpak]

Good deeds does not guarantee a person paradise, basic Belief in Islam.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/EJqxs_tzhfE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

''does not guarantee''

Hence my point stands.

 

[speed]

''does not guarantee''

Hence my point stands.

can you view the video?

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Good deeds does not guarantee a person paradise, basic Belief in Islam.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/EJqxs_tzhfE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

''does not guarantee''

Hence my point stands.

can you view the video?

The Chapter in question is Surah e Mohammad.

The people who are being described are Hypocrites of Madina.

Have some perspective.

 

[super hitter]

I don't know why I'm always late, jumping into these threads...

So many posters have posted some terrible theories n questions...I wish I could've answered them but they're too much!

I'm only 17, but tbh, I have given this life a very very broad view and that is something which still gives me the courage to BELIEVE despite the modernism in our family and around me...

This life would've been so so simple if people start JUDGING themselves instead of criticizing others...because
when you intend to CRITICIZE someone else, you're indirectly trying to prove yourself.

And guess what? most of the times, the debate ends up with out any conclusion with you trying to defend your point whilst he/she is trying to prove their point.

INSTEAD, just have a look at yourself, and determine the truth and false by your own opine... at the end of the day, everyone will share the same line of thought since humans are no different.

Whoever thinks of himself as the best of all is, in fact, the worst of all!

at last, be loyal to yourself.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

I don't know why I'm always late, jumping into these threads...

So many posters have posted some terrible theories n questions...I wish I could've answered them but they're too much!

I'm only 17, but tbh, I have given this life a very very broad view and that is something which still gives me the courage to BELIEVE despite the modernism in our family and around me...

This life would've been so so simple if people start JUDGING themselves instead of criticizing others...because
when you intend to CRITICIZE someone else, you're indirectly trying to prove yourself.

And guess what? most of the times, the debate ends up with out any conclusion with you trying to defend your point whilst he/she is trying to prove their point.

INSTEAD, just have a look at yourself, and determine the truth and false by your own opine... at the end of the day, everyone will share the same line of thought since humans are no different.

Whoever thinks of himself as the best of all is, in fact, the worst of all!

at last, be loyal to yourself.

What do you think.


Is One of the reason to worship Allah and obey his commandments is to get near him ? Experience his existence ? Make a living relation with him where he communicates with you ?


Or Allah just seazed his characteristic of communicating with his loved ones ? He used to talk with previous ones but he doesn't bother doing it now with this generation ?

In case you say No ie Yes he has stopped communicating than isn't it injustice ? Than we aren't as blessed and lucky as previous ones ? Than we are born in wrong era ?


Pehli Qomoun se humkalaam hota tha ab naheen hota ?

 

[tonmoy]

[MENTION=138952]tonmoy[/MENTION] [MENTION=21699]Pakpak[/MENTION]

This is my faith. For further clarity watch Ghamdi's two videos. Would be grateful if you could post aswell.


I agree with Ghamdi on this. His argument is based from Quran and it is rational and makes sense.


Sorry I don't agree with Orthodox Mullah. They are termed worst creatures on Earth by none other than Prophet Muhammad Pbuh himself. Refer to hadith. And indeed they with their adulterated doctrines, interpretations, concocted philosophies are doing disservice to Islam defaming Islam. It's the same Mullah Ulema e Soo who instigate voilence, hatred, persecution, extremism, terrorism and mislead youth, brainwash them, mislead them and make them worldly failures. So I don't agree with them and their terrible explanations and justifications.


If you strive in way of Allah honestly sincerely passionately . Obey his commandments. Than if you experience him come back. If not than stay where you are. Whatever your brain emotions cognition tell you do that. You have a free-will wrt your faith or no faith.

I am sorry for having a hard time understanding your message.

Do you deny the message on the Quran or do you think that is mis-interpreted?
I think the message is pretty clear.

Indeed, they who disbelieved among the People of the Scripture and the polytheists will be in the fire of Hell, abiding eternally therein. Those are the worst of creatures. (I dont see how this can be mis-interpreted)

The verses you provided are vague , it does not state clearly about the fate of non-believers. The verse I provided above is clear on the treatment of non-believers.

 

[Third_Umpire]

Life is hardest for those that take religion literally. Like a rat in a maze, always caught up in trying to get to the cheese. Those that view religion as a means to exercise spirituality are far better off.

 

[tonmoy]

Life is hardest for those that take religion literally. Like a rat in a maze, always caught up in trying to get to the cheese. Those that view religion as a means to exercise spirituality are far better off.

I have naive question
how do you exercise your spirituality?

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

I am sorry for having a hard time understanding your message.

Do you deny the message on the Quran or do you think that is mis-interpreted?
I think the message is pretty clear.

Indeed, they who disbelieved among the People of the Scripture and the polytheists will be in the fire of Hell, abiding eternally therein. Those are the worst of creatures. (I dont see how this can be mis-interpreted)

The verses you provided are vague , it does not state clearly about the fate of non-believers. The verse I provided above is clear on the treatment of non-believers.

I do not deny any word or verse of quran. Not even the pointing/Arabic Case system.


Some translators have translated the word " Mushrikeen " in verse 6 of Surah e Baiyinah as Polythiests while others have translated as Polythiests while others have translated it as Idolaters.

I shall go with the latter.


Now the thing is that those who Intensionally rejected the message because of their worldly seats, worldly objectives, personal ego they are the ones who are talked about in this verse.


The verses I have provided in post 148 look vague to you not to me. Allah could have named only believers in those verses.


Now on Youtube type " will non muslims go to jannah ghamdi " or " hell for non muslims ghamdi " and watch both videos.


Since you are an Atheist so you won't be bothered about Quran since you do not believe it is a book of Allah as you do not believe Allah exists. So No verse is good or bad for you, they are all irrelevent for you and man made.


Since you are born in a Muslim family so it was duty of your parents to bring you up as a Muslim ie offer prayers, recite Quran, fast, tell you about Islamic beliefs and monitor you until a certain age whether you are completing your religious onligations or not.

If they did. Fine. If not than it's their mistake and they are responsible for it.


If they did and you did not strive than its your mistake.


If you strive as per Allah's instructions in His way from the age of 3-4 to the age of say 20 than after the hardwork you eventually experience him. When you strive harder than the next level of righteousness and piety leads you to the level where you see true dreams which fulfil infront of your eyes. Than the next level is of " Kashaf " and than " Roya "


If you have not strived and you want God to show up and prove you his existence than it is not going to happen unfortunately unless God shows up in a way which you me or no one wants which would be disaster. I wish and pray it doesn't ever happen.


God is not a physical entity which can be proved to you or me by a video.


If my parents and religious teachers did not care about my prayers and all religious obligations, if I wasn’t held accountable daily until my teenage wrt duties than it would not have become part of my routine and I wouldn't have developed Love for God and than in the next fortunate step I wouldn't have felt HIS existence eventually. For more than a decade it was all like a duty for which I was questioned and held accountable. It was all striving for someone I never saw heard or felt and was only told about or someone about him I read and had no conviction.

First it was Iman ul Taqleed than it was Iman ul Ikhtayaar, than it is Iman ul Yaqeen. I have only achieved first step of Imam ul Yaqeen and I am striving to achieve other 3 steps in my lifetime.


God forbid if after striving more than a decade I could not attain ie failed to attain first level of Imam bil Yaqeen than I would have become an Aethiest and would have ended doing all those things I was told are obligatory and would have considered them waste of time, energy and money.


My advice for you would be to strive in Allah's way. You will eventually InshaAllah experience his existence. It won't affect your worldly life. It is harmless to your body. If you experience Allah accept him. If not than don't bother. Simple.


Just criticising a book of Allah when you do not believe in him will get you nothing personally. But if you want more people to become Agnostic or Aethiest than it might help your cause with many who are borderline.


I have seen tons of Videos of World's renounced Aethiesm leaders and scholars including Scientists. I myself am a Masters student of Bio Medical sciences who will InshAllah be a Scientist soon (life permiting) but when I have experienced Allah than nothing can detract me to believe there is no God. Now the only thing which could happen is that I become a Sinner of higher order and stop fulfilling my religious duties and than Lie to people that there is No God when I have experienced Him. Than surely Allah has all the power to implement verse 6 of Chapter 98 on the day of Judgement. Yes a believer can become disbeliever. I wish and pray it never happens to me and InshaAllah it will never happen. I hope I die as a believer and my virtues weight more than my sins.


This is all I have to say. I wish and pray you lead a happy successful life and you are blessed with Iman in this Lifetime.