[VIDEOS] Religion or Atheism?

[Hadi Rizvi]

There is no GOD except *insert any random God* and *insert any prophet* is his MESSENGER.

Incredible logic. Wouldn't be taking high definition pictures of Pluto without that special knowledge.

Well, atleast you agree that Prophets exist, or are you making a non-existent entity the basis of whatever you're trying to prove in the above statement?

As far as HD photos of Pluto are concerned, well, congratulations mate. You just proved how utterly desperate you are to give a *** for tat answer to my question and I must say you've failed with distinction

 

[ManFan]

His five ways have been debunked but it's telling that you chose to stop at a point where you thought your original stance would be vindicated.

You should elaborate further and state Aquinas' view on Islam and in particular Muhammad.

The poster did not ask about Islam rather the origins of God. This is his argument from Motion and they do not empirically prove the existence of God but prove it to be rationale to believe in one.

 

[ManFan]

I would take into consideration that although Aquinas lived at a time closer to the PBUH, his views do have a somewhat bias because the Church ultimately saw Islam not as a new religion but as a perversion of Christianity at that time. The only Muslim scholar whose had as much influence on Islam as Aquinas did on Catholicism is probably Al-Ghazali, IMO of course. [MENTION=1080]miandadrules[/MENTION] do you have an article or some work on where they disprove his Five Ways?

 

[Heisenberg]

Well, atleast you agree that Prophets exist, or are you making a non-existent entity the basis of whatever you're trying to prove in the above statement?

As far as HD photos of Pluto are concerned, well, congratulations mate. You just proved how utterly desperate you are to give a *** for tat answer to my question and I must say you've failed with distinction

The fact that you obliterated what science knows right now about the origins of the universe into a WhatsApp chain message argument to make your point was hilarious enough. Didn't really need to answer as such.

Let's try again though. Do you not appreciate that it is more complex than how you tried to describe it?

Do you not think it's presumptuous to say this is what atheists believe? It's what the majority of scientists believe backed by evidence. Last I checked, an atheist is free to reject/believe whatever they want to and a scientist is free to believe in religion. You know like all those scientists who are believers and reject creationism at the same time.

Do you also not think it's arrogant to ask why we are still arguing about this? What exactly have you proven by claiming your God is the real one?

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

The fact that you obliterated what science knows right now about the origins of the universe into a WhatsApp chain message argument to make your point was hilarious enough. Didn't really need to answer as such.

Let's try again though. Do you not appreciate that it is more complex than how you tried to describe it?

Do you not think it's presumptuous to say this is what atheists believe? It's what the majority of scientists believe backed by evidence. Last I checked, an atheist is free to reject/believe whatever they want to and a scientist is free to believe in religion. You know like all those scientists who are believers and reject creationism at the same time.

Do you also not think it's arrogant to ask why we are still arguing about this? What exactly have you proven by claiming your God is the real one?

"Energy can neither be created nor destroyed"

This is a very famous law of thermodynamics and fully accepted by the scientific fraternity globally.
Kindly explain the Big Bang Theory to me without breaking this law.

Keep in mind that I have based the above on the assumption that you totally believe whatever scientists say/believe in terms of scientific knowledge.

As far as being arrogant is concerned, I'm honestly surprised an atheist could ever claim that for a believer. I mean, we're not the ones denying the existence of our creator neither are we denying the uncountable bounties of God.

Lastly, what have YOU proven by claiming that everything was a coincidence and that there is NO GOD?

 

[Robert]

"Energy can neither be created nor destroyed"

This is a very famous law of thermodynamics and fully accepted by the scientific fraternity globally.
Kindly explain the Big Bang Theory to me without breaking this law.

Keep in mind that I have based the above on the assumption that you totally believe whatever scientists say/believe in terms of scientific knowledge.

As far as being arrogant is concerned, I'm honestly surprised an atheist could ever claim that for a believer. I mean, we're not the ones denying the existence of our creator neither are we denying the uncountable bounties of God.

Lastly, what have YOU proven by claiming that everything was a coincidence and that there is NO GOD?

Ah, the trouble is that the Big Bang is a singularity and all scientific laws break down as infinite mass, gravity, spacetime are concentrated into a single point which is the only thing that exists. All the variables are either infinity or zero so nothing can be described and thermodynamics does not apply.

 

[Heisenberg]

"Energy can neither be created nor destroyed"

This is a very famous law of thermodynamics and fully accepted by the scientific fraternity globally.
Kindly explain the Big Bang Theory to me without breaking this law.

Keep in mind that I have based the above on the assumption that you totally believe whatever scientists say/believe in terms of scientific knowledge.

As far as being arrogant is concerned, I'm honestly surprised an atheist could ever claim that for a believer. I mean, we're not the ones denying the existence of our creator neither are we denying the uncountable bounties of God.

Lastly, what have YOU proven by claiming that everything was a coincidence and that there is NO GOD?

I am not a scientist and neither are you. I'm sure you or the apologist website where you pick up these basic arguments didn't escape scientists when they were trying to make sense of the big bang theory. They are scientists for a reason and a number of them with a significantly superior brain to the average population.

It's okay if you think atheists are arrogant. Most of them are just inquisitive and sceptical. You have to understand that everybody is different and some people just can't make sense of it. They also aren't affected by empty threats of hellfire which may sound arrogant to you as described in your holy scripture but an atheist sees it differently. That's just difference in how the brain works.

What do you mean what have I proven? Aren't you supposed to prove that there is a God?

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

Ah, the trouble is that the Big Bang is a singularity and all scientific laws break down as infinite mass, gravity, spacetime are concentrated into a single point which is the only thing that exists. All the variables are either infinity or zero so nothing can be described and thermodynamics does not apply.

So.......energy was CREATED and it will be DESTROYED (if we go by the Big Crunch Theory).

Who or What was/is doing this?

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

I am not a scientist and neither are you. I'm sure you or the apologist website where you pick up these basic arguments didn't escape scientists when they were trying to make sense of the big bang theory. They are scientists for a reason and a number of them with a significantly superior brain to the average population.

It's okay if you think atheists are arrogant. Most of them are just inquisitive and sceptical. You have to understand that everybody is different and some people just can't make sense of it. They also aren't affected by empty threats of hellfire which may sound arrogant to you as described in your holy scripture but an atheist sees it differently. That's just difference in how the brain works.

What do you mean what have I proven? Aren't you supposed to prove that there is a God?

I'm not desperate enough to go to "apologist" websites to pick up such questions. Just goes to show that you don't have an answer to it. I keep an open mind to all theories but I don't take science as the ONLY INFALLIBLE TRUTH.

Your argument is eerily similar to what a vague religious scholar would say e.g. "God is Almighty for a reason. He is God because he is significantly superior to all beings. Follow God blindly."

You just can't base an argument on "scientists are scientists for a reason". If I'm being taught something throughout my academic studies in Physics and then it turns out that it couldn't be applied to the ORIGIN OF THE WHOLE UNIVERSE then I'd be rather ****** off and such theories prove that science and scientists aren't PERFECT. They might get it right, they might get it wrong. Just because I came up with a theory (that applies to a majority of phenomena) doesn't mean that every word spoken by me is the truth and nothing but.

A much better answer to my question was put forward by [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION].

And no, I'm not supposed to prove it because I know HE exists. You're supposed to prove HE doesn't because you blindly follow those who make laws/theories/rules which are IMPERFECT and can't be applied to every situation possible whereas HIS system is such that the SUN will ALWAYS rise from the East and set in the West and you can't do **** about it.

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

Ah, the trouble is that the Big Bang is a singularity and all scientific laws break down as infinite mass, gravity, spacetime are concentrated into a single point which is the only thing that exists. All the variables are either infinity or zero so nothing can be described and thermodynamics does not apply.

Also bro, I already knew all this just wanted someone to justify how they can blindly follow scientists whose theories/laws can't be applied in every situation possible. Otherwise, I actually understood Interstellar in my 1st viewing regarding the relativity and time dilation and the event horizon etc etc, because of my deep interest in space and astrophysics.

 

[Mughal]

It is absolute truth that from absolute nothing absolutely nothing can come ie 0+0=0 and 0-0=0. No need for any debate at all. This proves beyond a shadow of doubt that there has to be something already there from which something could come. It is because we exist the only explanation for our existence is God created us.

The problem is with our understanding of this world as to why God created it. This problem can only and only be solved by having proper understanding of things and that means learning sense of making proper sense of things which a lot of people are not bothered with learning.

Once we have learned sense of making proper sense of things by fooling about or experimenting with things in this world then and only then we will become capable of making proper sense of message of God for us. It is because we are born not knowing a thing and it takes us a lot of time to realise things for ourselves so that we become aware of ourselves and what is going on all around us and why or how etc etc.

Religious people are as dumb founded as scientists and philosophers when it comes to trying to make proper sense of message of God. It is because message of God although it is in human language yet it is not human thought which it has to express for mankind. So we must discover the mechanism God has used to convey his message for us in our human language. This is where the actual problem is. This is why mullahs, philosophers, scientists and all the rest of people differ in what sense the message of God is conveying to them because they are not well versed in the way of decoding message of God for them.

This issue of existence of God and his message needs to be openly discussed to its fullest for sake of its proper understanding of people with knowledge. This forum is not the place for discussion of such issues because it is for passtime and entertainment as its name suggests. Long posts are not allowed on this forum because according to its administration they slow down the forum and issue of God and his message cannot be understood without a lot of well detailed explanations.

People who are truly interested in this issue must look for forums where they are allowed to do so. People want to get rid of God and his message by force instead of logically consistent arguments. For trying to understand the message in the quran each and every person has to know origin of human language. Why? Because without having any idea how human language came about and developed people cannot know mechanism involved in origin of words and their meanings. This mechanism helps to know what God may mean by words he used in the quran. It is because by that mechanism we can give the words different meanings which we otherwise cannot.

Knowing arabic grammar is also of great importance even though language came about long before its grammatical rules were worked out by grammarians.

A lot of people due to their ignorance think the quran is flawed as well as full of contradictions but that is not true, however, one has to have a lot of sense before one could see what the actual message in the quranic text is. Humanity has not yet reached the level of knowledge the quran requires for its proper understanding. I have explained some of the things on this forum for those who may be interested see HERE and HERE.

 

[Robert]

Also bro, I already knew all this just wanted someone to justify how they can blindly follow scientists whose theories/laws can't be applied in every situation possible.

Well, because they can make an effort to understand the science. Two pieces of evidence point to the Bang happening 13.7 billion years ago. Trying to describe what happened before the Bang is meaningless because there was no time and no space for anything to happen in. The only thing this point of infinite mass and zero dimensions could do was go Bang, and then the four forces came into being.

Religious people try to get round this paradox by saying God did it but that is meaningless too.

 

[Robert]

So.......energy was CREATED and it will be DESTROYED (if we go by the Big Crunch Theory).

Who or What was/is doing this?

Can’t answer that because there was no time for it to have been created during. To me the question is therefore meaningless.

Looks like the Big Crunch won’t happen as gravity is too weak to overcome the Cosmological Constant, even counting dark matter. The universe will keep expanding faster and faster and everything will fly apart. Even the black holes will eventually dissipate and vanish. There will come a time when even individual photons are as far apart from each other as the galaxies are now, and then nothing will ever happen again. Just an infinitely expanding space with nothing going on.

Which makes me feel sad. No Big Crunch and no next Big Bang, just blackness forever.......

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

Can’t answer that because there was no time for it to have been created during. To me the question is therefore meaningless.

Looks like the Big Crunch won’t happen as gravity is too weak to overcome the Cosmological Constant, even counting dark matter. The universe will keep expanding faster and faster and everything will fly apart. Even the black holes will eventually dissipate and vanish. There will come a time when even individual photons are as far apart from each other as the galaxies are now, and then nothing will ever happen again. Just an infinitely expanding space with nothing going on.

Which makes me feel sad. No Big Crunch and no next Big Bang, just blackness forever.......

Yeah I recently read an article which said the there is more and more evidence pointing towards an infinitely expanding universe since the expansion is actually accelerating but its gonna take a billion more years to witness blackness forever.

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

Well, because they can make an effort to understand the science. Two pieces of evidence point to the Bang happening 13.7 billion years ago. Trying to describe what happened before the Bang is meaningless because there was no time and no space for anything to happen in. The only thing this point of infinite mass and zero dimensions could do was go Bang, and then the four forces came into being.

Religious people try to get round this paradox by saying God did it but that is meaningless too.

So basically you're saying that since time and space didn't exist then therefore nothing other than the Big Bang could've happened.

 

[Robert]

Yeah I recently read an article which said the there is more and more evidence pointing towards an infinitely expanding universe since the expansion is actually accelerating but its gonna take a billion more years to witness blackness forever.

More like ten to the power 40 years or so I read.

 

[Robert]

So basically you're saying that since time and space didn't exist then therefore nothing other than the Big Bang could've happened.

Yeah. Which is unsatisfying..... Some physicists apply M-theory to posit many universes popping up from a ten-dimensional substrate like a sort of cabbage patch. I can’t comprehend ten dimensions, I struggle with four.

 

[daytrader]

Buddhist Temple is Without Monks After All Fail Drug Test

Four monks including an abbot at a temple in Phetchabun province's Bung Sam Phan district tested positive for methamphetamine on Monday.

Bangkok: A Buddhist temple in central Thailand has been left without monks after all its holy men failed drug tests and were defrocked, a local official said Tuesday.
Four monks including an abbot at a temple in Phetchabun province's Bung Sam Phan district tested positive for methamphetamine on Monday, district official Boonlert Thintapthai told AFP.

The monks have been sent to a health clinic to undergo drug rehabilitation, the official said.

"The temple is now empty of monks and nearby villagers are concerned they cannot do any merit-making," he said.

Merit-making involves worshippers donating food to monks as a good deed.

Boonlert said more monks will be sent to the temple to allow villagers to practise their religious obligations.

Thailand is a major transit country for methamphetamine flooding in from Myanmar's troubled Shan state via Laos, according to the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime.

On the street, pills sell for less than 20 baht (around $0.50).

NDTV

 

[Robert]

MethOMMMMMMMMMphtetamine )

 

[KingKhanWC]

Breaking Bad Monks

Ive been to a few Bhuddist temples in Thailand. The monks I saw looked bored but now Im aware it wasnt boredom.

 

[Robert]

Breaking Bad Monks

Ive been to a few Bhuddist temples in Thailand. The monks I saw looked bored but now Im aware it wasnt boredom.

HeiZenberg…

 

[ElRaja]

Breaking Baht?

 

[Robert]

Buddhism struck me as the closet faith to what I believe about myself, philosophy and the Universe.

I like the story of the Buddhist sage and the Samurai on the difference between Heaven and Hell. Both are right here, right now, depending on our choices on a moment-by-moment basis.

 

[IndoorCricket]

Buddhism struck me as the closet faith to what I believe about myself, philosophy and the Universe.

I like the story of the Buddhist sage and the Samurai on the difference between Heaven and Hell. Both are right here, right now, depending on our choices on a moment-by-moment basis.

Heaven and Hell are state of consciousness.

 

[sweep_shot]

Atheism = Anything goes (chaos).

Religion = Law and order.

 

[ElRaja]

Atheism = Anything goes (chaos).

Religion = Law and order.

atheism does not allow for the existence of god, hence anything does not go. agnosticism is closer to anything goes (until proven otherwise)

 

[sweep_shot]

atheism does not allow for the existence of god, hence anything does not go. agnosticism is closer to anything goes (until proven otherwise)

Atheism and agnosticism are in the same group (despite some differences).

Atheists believe everything happens by chance. That's illogical. When we look at this universe, how planets rotate, how planets were formed, how human bodies were formed etc., one can clearly see intelligent designs. Even just from visuals, it is evident all of these were created. That Creator is God.

 

[SpiritOf1903]

Guru Narcotics

 

[ElRaja]

Atheism and agnosticism are in the same group (despite some differences).

Atheists believe everything happens by chance. That's illogical. When we look at this universe, how planets rotate, how planets were formed, how human bodies were formed etc., one can clearly see intelligent designs. Even just from visuals, it is evident all of these were created. That Creator is God.

an agnostic could say what you are saying may well be true, but it is not probably, likely or certain depending on the weight of evidence you provide.

an atheist on the hand would state that there is enough evidence to disprove what you are saying without even entertaining the possibility of its likelihood.

the two ideologies are significantly different when you understand the ramifications of the base presuppositions.

atheism is far closer to religious belief systems.

 

[Robert]

Atheists believe everything happens by chance. That's illogical. When we look at this universe, how planets rotate, how planets were formed, how human bodies were formed etc., one can clearly see intelligent designs. Even just from visuals, it is evident all of these were created by some Higher Power (God).

You are not applying logic here. Your statements are based on a misunderstanding of the physics of stellar evolution and planetary evolution.

All of it is inevitable, and a creator doesn’t have to have been involved.

Gravity pulls nebulae together. Eventually there is enough hydrogen mass concentrated in one place for fusion to occur. Then a star is born. The star makes all the elements. Eventually the star goes bang, as the forces holding it together go out of equilibrium with the fusion reaction at the core. Planets form from the rubble of the explosion. A second generation star eventually coalesces and pulls in some of the planets. According to their velocity and course, some fall in and are destroyed, while others go into orbit.

Out of the trillion planets in our galaxy, a few are warm enough to have liquid water and yet cool enough for protein chains to form. On at least one, life emerges.

Not chance. Not chaos. Order.

 

[sweep_shot]

You are not applying logic here. Your statements are based on a misunderstanding of the physics of stellar evolution and planetary evolution.

All of it is inevitable, and a creator doesn’t have to have been involved.

Gravity pulls nebulae together. Eventually there is enough hydrogen mass concentrated in one place for fusion to occur. Then a star is born. The star makes all the elements. Eventually the star goes bang, as the forces holding it together go out of equilibrium with the fusion reaction at the core. Planets form from the rubble of the explosion. A second generation star eventually coalesces and pulls in some of the planets. According to their velocity and course, some fall in and are destroyed, while others go into orbit.

Out of the trillion planets in our galaxy, a few are warm enough to have liquid water and yet cool enough for protein chains to form. On at least one, life emerges.

Not chance. Not chaos. Order.

How do you explain human bodies? Human bodies are incredibly organized and systematic. What are the odds that human bodies were created without a Creator? It must be an astronomical odd.

Just from visuals, it is evident Someone created us and that Someone is God.

 

[ElRaja]

How do you explain human bodies? Human bodies are incredibly organized and systematic. What are the odds that human bodies were created without a Creator? It must be an astronomical odd.

Just from visuals, it is evident Someone created us and that Someone is God.

on an astronomical scale, even the most astronomically small odds become likely.

 

[Champ_Pal]

How do you explain human bodies? Human bodies are incredibly organized and systematic. What are the odds that human bodies were created without a Creator? It must be an astronomical odd.

Just from visuals, it is evident Someone created us and that Someone is God.

All animals including humans have complex bodies. We all have one head, one mouth, 2 eyes, 2 hands, 2 legs. I am talking about mammals. We are no different to many animals in terms of morphology. That itself tells you evolution is real.

If humans are created by God, then he would design our bodies a lot better. For starters, God would not have put the food and windpipe so close together that we can choke while eating and die.
Also humans are born from the same opening where urine gets passed everyday like all animals. God would have designed a better way for babies to enter earth.

 

[sweep_shot]

on an astronomical scale, even the most astronomically small odds become likely.

Are you an atheist or an agnostic? I thought you were a Muslim.

 

[sweep_shot]

All animals including humans have complex bodies. We all have one head, one mouth, 2 eyes, 2 hands, 2 legs. I am talking about mammals. We are no different to many animals in terms of morphology. That itself tells you evolution is real.

If humans are created by God, then he would design our bodies a lot better. For starters, God would not have put the food and windpipe so close together that we can choke while eating and die.
Also humans are born from the same opening where urine gets passed everyday like all animals. God would have designed a better way for babies to enter earth.

What you said was subjective. Who determines what is better? You?

I was pointing out the patterns/designs of our bodies. There is a system in place. There is intelligent design. It couldn't have happened by chance.

 

[Champ_Pal]

What you said was subjective. Who determines what is better? You?

I was pointing out the patterns/designs of our bodies. There is a system in place. There is intelligent design. It couldn't have happened by chance.

The pattern we see did not come in a single day out of nowhere. Mammals have been around since Triassic period. Almost for 300 million years. It took a long long time for changes to happen.

The mere fact that we are able to get vaccines every year for viruses shows that evolution is real. There are plenty of scientific documentaries on internet to see how evolution works and examples to back it up.

 

[sweep_shot]

Atheism and agnosticism are recipes for disasters when it comes to societies. Look at modern day societies. Societies are degrading. Morality is going down. This is what happens when piety goes down and degeneracy is allowed to grow.

 

[Robert]

How do you explain human bodies? Human bodies are incredibly organized and systematic. What are the odds that human bodies were created without a Creator? It must be an astronomical odd.

Odds? Inevitable By extension of the physical and chemical processes as stellar evolution.. Fatty acids and amino acids form naturally. It’s been proven by n the laboratory that something like a cell wall spontaneously forms under certain chemical conditions.

The problem is getting from there to a self-replicating molecule such as RNA. We don’t know how that happened.

But once the self-replication molecule forms, every living thing we see is a merely a product of time and natural selection.

Sometimes creationists ask how a complex structure like the eye could have developed. Sir David Attenborough explains this elegantly.

Something like a planarian worm undergoes a mutation in DNA replication and a light-sensitive cell appears. The worm can now move toward the light and has an evolutionary advantage over its siblings. So it lives longer and reproduces and its offspring have the cell too. One day another mutation occurs and the cell is now located inside a pit in the worm’s pellicle. The worm can now detect darkness too, and it hides from predators. Natural selection favours it and it breeds. Then one day a worm is born with a mucus cell formed in the pit, and suddenly the worm has a lens. It is now well on the way to developing an eye.

A billion generations later and you have complex animals with different tissues doing different jobs for the animal.

None of which means there is no god.

Just means that there doesn’t have to be one, for things to be how they are.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

Odds? Inevitable By extension of the physical and chemical processes as stellar evolution.. Fatty acids and amino acids form naturally. It’s been proven by n the laboratory that something like a cell wall spontaneously forms under certain chemical conditions.

The problem is getting from there to a self-replicating molecule such as RNA. We don’t know how that happened.

But once the self-replication molecule forms, every living thing we see is a merely a product of time and natural selection.

Sometimes creationists ask how a complex structure like the eye could have developed. Sir David Attenborough explains this elegantly.

Something like a planarian worm undergoes a mutation in DNA replication and a light-sensitive cell appears. The worm can now move toward the light and has an evolutionary advantage over its siblings. So it lives longer and reproduces and its offspring have the cell too. One day another mutation occurs and the cell is now located inside a pit in the worm’s pellicle. The worm can now detect darkness too, and it hides from predators. Natural selection favours it and it breeds. Then one day a worm is born with a mucus cell formed in the pit, and suddenly the worm has a lens. It is now well on the way to developing an eye.

A billion generations later and you have complex animals with different tissues doing different jobs for the animal.

None of which means there is no god.

Just means that there doesn’t have to be one, for things to be how they are.

If science believes that "something came out of nothing", then can the science repeat it? We are not going into that argument, but have you seen this one yet?

 

[Robert]

Atheism and agnosticism are recipes for disasters when it comes to societies. Look at modern day societies. Societies are degrading. Morality is going down. This is what happens when piety goes down and degeneracy is allowed to grow.

There’s no particular correlation as far as I can see. Plenty of atheists are kind people. The religious GW Bush started a crusade.

We are living longer and more fulfilling lives than at any time in history. Overall violent crime has fallen. Society is gentler and kinder now than in my youth. The Golden Rule is universal whether one is religious or not. That’s all one really needs for a decent society to flourish.

 

[SalimBhai]

Atheism and agnosticism are recipes for disasters when it comes to societies. Look at modern day societies. Societies are degrading. Morality is going down. This is what happens when piety goes down and degeneracy is allowed to grow.

Have you seen religious societies?

 

[Technics 1210]

Once Atheists explain how DNA/RNA can appear through chance, they can then explain how transcription and translation of DNA/RNA comes about through chance.

In simple terms, how does the code and the decoder, appear together at the same time through chance?

It just happened though an unintelligent, blind, purposeless, process.

 

[SalimBhai]

There’s no particular correlation as far as I can see. Plenty of atheists are kind people. The religious GW Bush started a crusade.

We are living longer and more fulfilling lives than at any time in history. Overall violent crime has fallen. Society is gentler and kinder now than in my youth. The Golden Rule is universal whether one is religious or not. That’s all one really needs for a decent society to flourish.

100 agreed. Good job Bobby

 

[Robert]

If science believes that "something came out of nothing", then can the science repeat it? We are not going into that argument, but have you seen this one yet?

Science doesn’t believe that. See what I posted years ago on the Big Bang Theory, further up this thread.

Reagan restates Paley’s Watchmaker Hypothesis here. If you find a watch in a desert, somebody must have dropped it. But a watch isn’t a living system which has changed slowly over billions of generations here.

 

[Technics 1210]

The holy grail - Abiogenesis.

The laws of physics and chemistry determine it is impossible for inanimate matter to evolve into animate matter.

 

[sweep_shot]

Have you seen religious societies?

Don't just look at poor third world countries. Poverty can make you do desperate things.

Crimes are very low in gulf states. They don't play around when it comes to criminals. They have effective laws for criminals.

Criminals should not be pampered. They should get what they deserve.

There’s no particular correlation as far as I can see. Plenty of atheists are kind people. The religious GW Bush started a crusade.

We are living longer and more fulfilling lives than at any time in history. Overall violent crime has fallen. Society is gentler and kinder now than in my youth. The Golden Rule is universal whether one is religious or not. That’s all one really needs for a decent society to flourish.

Violent crime has fallen? Where?

UK has a serious knife attack problem. America is America (land of guns and crimes). We are starting to have break-ins and automobile thefts here in Canada too (along with shootings just like in USA). Crimes are increasing worldwide. Morality is going downhill worldwide.

 

[KingKhanWC]

There’s no particular correlation as far as I can see. Plenty of atheists are kind people. The religious GW Bush started a crusade.

We are living longer and more fulfilling lives than at any time in history. Overall violent crime has fallen. Society is gentler and kinder now than in my youth. The Golden Rule is universal whether one is religious or not. That’s all one really needs for a decent society to flourish.

Plenty are also known as evil people in history.

Lenin
Mussolini
Tojo
Hitler
Ho Chi min
Panzram
Blohkin
Kogan
Beria
Bhagat Singh
Muhammed Taraki
Trotsky

And many many more.

Its a myth atheists are more likey to be kinder. On the contrary an atheist believes there is no judgement day so arguably are more likey to carry out heinous crimes as the names on the list did.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

Have you seen religious societies?

lol, reminds me of this actually

 

[KingKhanWC]

Scottsdale, AZ Poised to Set World Record for Largest Satanic Conference

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/scot...a2a30JGTA4dBkH20TMCEmZbJCopmwrMxPVpSeHc3PFRtn

Satancon lol.

Any Satanists on here?

 

[sweep_shot]

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/scot...a2a30JGTA4dBkH20TMCEmZbJCopmwrMxPVpSeHc3PFRtn

Satancon lol.

Any Satanists on here?

Outrageous.

Can't believe this is an actual religion.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Outrageous.

Can't believe this is an actual religion.

It seems a bunch of confused people who are against any rules and want to follow their desires. Eg . Incest, Gay, Abortion, Boozing, Drugs, Swinging etc. etc... I dont think they understand the club they joined. If you believe in Satan, you have to believe in God duh...

Interesting the atheists leave them alone

 

[Robert]

Violent crime has fallen? Where?

UK for certain. The murder rate is far below where it was sixty years ago. Same thing in Ireland since the Good Friday Agreement.

 

[Robert]

Plenty are also known as evil people in history.

Lenin
Mussolini
Tojo
Hitler
Ho Chi min
Panzram
Blohkin
Kogan
Beria
Bhagat Singh
Muhammed Taraki
Trotsky

And many many more.

Its a myth atheists are more likey to be kinder. On the contrary an atheist believes there is no judgement day so arguably are more likey to carry out heinous crimes as the names on the list did.

Didn’t say atheists are more likely to be kinder. Said there are some good atheists. Some bad ones too. Same as there are good and bad religious people.

 

[Robert]

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/scot...a2a30JGTA4dBkH20TMCEmZbJCopmwrMxPVpSeHc3PFRtn

Satancon lol.

Any Satanists on here?

I skim-read Anton LaVey’s Satanic Bible once. It made a certain amount of sense, if you want the world to be a more dangerous place with the ego elevated. It’s about making humans more animalistic again, which the Satanists feel is the natural way to behave.

 

[sweep_shot]

I skim-read Anton LaVey’s Satanic Bible once. It made a certain amount of sense, if you want the world to be a more dangerous place with the ego elevated. It’s about making humans more animalistic again, which the Satanists feel is the natural way to behave.

There's also theistic Satanism. Those people literally acknowledge and worship the devil. Check here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wikiTheistic_Satanism.

Horrendous. What fools they are!

 

[Robert]

There's also theistic Satanism. Those people literally acknowledge and worship the devil. Check here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wikiTheistic_Satanism.

Horrendous. What fools they are!

I would imagine one could release some nasty stuff inside one’s head, go to dark mental states. Goodness only knows what people are attracted to such a system of belief.

 

[SalimBhai]

Don't just look at poor third world countries. Poverty can make you do desperate things.

Crimes are very low in gulf states. They don't play around when it comes to criminals. They have effective laws for criminals.

Criminals should not be pampered. They should get what they deserve.




Violent crime has fallen? Where?

UK has a serious knife attack problem. America is America (land of guns and crimes). We are starting to have break-ins and automobile thefts here in Canada too (along with shootings just like in USA). Crimes are increasing worldwide. Morality is going downhill worldwide.

Crime in the USA is way down from 20-30 years ago. Look. Up the stats

 

[SalimBhai]

There’s no particular correlation as far as I can see. Plenty of atheists are kind people. The religious GW Bush started a crusade.

We are living longer and more fulfilling lives than at any time in history. Overall violent crime has fallen. Society is gentler and kinder now than in my youth. The Golden Rule is universal whether one is religious or not. That’s all one really needs for a decent society to flourish.

100 percent agreed. Spot on. You will see all these people who are complaining here live and. Edit from secular societies

 

[SalimBhai]

Satanism or religious worship. All the same to me. I think satanist and religious people would have more in common than say with agnostic/atheist.

 

[Robert]

There's also theistic Satanism. Those people literally acknowledge and worship the devil. Check here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wikiTheistic_Satanism.

Horrendous. What fools they are!

Satanism or religious worship. All the same to me. I think satanist and religious people would have more in common than say with agnostic/atheist.

Satanism is a creed of elevation of pride, selfishness and ego, whereas Buddhism and Abrahamism promote good works and humility.

 

[SalimBhai]

Both are based on something that is not real. God or satan. That was my point

 

[Champ_Pal]

What if Satan cleverly made humans believe that he is the real one God while God is portrayed as Satan in the messengers and prophets he sent?

 

[sweep_shot]

What if Satan cleverly made humans believe that he is the real one God while God is portrayed as Satan in the messengers and prophets he sent?

Nope. That's illogical.

If you really believe that, you can be considered as a Satanist.

 

[Robert]

What if Satan cleverly made humans believe that he is the real one God while God is portrayed as Satan in the messengers and prophets he sent?

The Book of Revelation predicts such a one. And Islam has its Dajjal story.

Anyone fitting that general description of false prophet in the news at present? He’ll be sure to use social media to the max.

 

[Robert]

Both are based on something that is not real. God or satan. That was my point

All the gods and devils can be described as aspects of human behaviour. Psychological principles. So if you worship Satan, you are worshiping yourself. If you worship Loki, you invite in lies, deceit and chaos.

 

[Mamoon]

Moving the discussion to this thread because it is more relevant for this discourse.

@Technics 1210

Shame for you, I am a Muslim because I choose to be.

No you did not choose to be a Muslim. This is what you tell yourself.

I am sure that you did not renounce your faith in Islam at some point in your life, became faithless and studied each and every religion in the world with the same capacity and then decided that Islam is the only true religion.

You were born a Muslim, you were made to believe that Islam is the true religion and if you studied other religions, you did so as a Muslim and therefore, you had an inherent bias and studied those religions with the intention of proving them wrong and convincing yourself that Islam is superior.

Ergo, you are not a Muslim because you choose to be unless you are a convert which I'm pretty sure you are not.

 

[Technics 1210]

Moving the discussion to this thread because it is more relevant for this discourse.

No need, your motives are obvious.

It is no coincidence that you come out defending Hinduism - surprise surprise - but never defend Islam when Hindutva supporters and Atheists members mock Islam, Islamic history, and Islamic beliefs.

When you show consistency, even in your hate, then come back and we can discuss your insecurities.

 

[Mamoon]

@Muhammad Saad

Islam doesn't need myths to prove it's the right religion , even if you don't include any of the miracles of our prophet in propagating Islam , Islamic history is enough to prove it's correctness , How on earth mere 313 soldiers without even proper swords or horses defeated an army of 1000+? How on earth Quran predicted the rise of Roman empire against Persia? How on earth Quran the only religious book (or the only book in existence) which is in the heart of countless Muslims word by word ,How on earth an illiterate person who can't even read or right can produce socio and economic laws of human life based on fitra which if obeyed will relief poverty and will result in fair distribution of wealth among the nation , how on earth he can devise such law which if applied will solve the problems of women remain unmarried throughout their lives/after losing their husband.
How on earth those same muslims upon getting the sovereignty of a huge empire when started showing signs of disobeying to Allah getting replaced by Infidels (Tatari/Mongols) and then Allah made those tatari in to muslims , These all things are historical facts and not some myths
So any sane mind with logic and wisdom and which is guided by Allah will choose to accept factual religion instead of his birth religion which is based on myths and blind faith with no historical accuracy and facts

This is a classic biased take that exemplifies what I am talking about. People believe what they want to believe which is perfectly fine. However, the problem is when people impose their beliefs on one another even both sides believe what they believe simply because they are conditioned to do so.

Please note that I am not attacking you or your beliefs - whatever I'm saying is applicable to everyone who thinks like this. It is mentioned in the Quran that during the Battle of Badr, Allah SWT sent an army of angels to fight alongside the Muslims which answers your question of why and how the Muslims were able to triumph in spite of being outnumbered.

Furthermore, history is filled with examples of battles won by smaller forces. The most famous example is the The Battle of Agincourt where 6,000 English soldiers defeated an army of 30,000 French soldiers and I'm pretty sure they were not aided by angels.

Would you consider this a miracle of Christianity and a proof of its correctness? King Henry V considered himself a divine ruler and he credit God for the victory after his heavily outnumbered army defeated the French against all the odds.

Moreover, there are future predictions and prophecies in every holy book not just the Quran.

Your views regarding the leadership of Prophet Muhammad PBUH and what he established is for us Muslims a prove of his Prophethood and Allah's decree. However, for a non-Muslim, it is simply his great leadership and not proof of divinity because history is full of great leaders who achieved extraordinary feats.

Take a look at what Alexander the Great achieved in such a short period of time. He declared himself a God and people believed him because no mortal man could achieve what he achieved.

Prophet Muhammad PBUH is widely regarded as a great leader by non-Muslims too. Michael H. Hart, a non-Muslim, ranked him as the most influential man in history because of his political and socioeconomic leadership.

As far as memorizing the Quran is concerned, any book can be memorized at a young age. It is not unique to the Quran. There are many people who have memorized the Bible and other religious books/scripts. It is not as widespread as memorizing the Quran because this practice is more widespread and common in Islam, not because Quran is easier to learn than other religious books.

Lastly, lets not talk about logic and blind faith. The foundation of every religion is based on blind faith because there are things that you cannot prove or explain but you believe in it is because it is your faith. Logic and faith cannot co-exist.

As a Muslim, you cannot prove the existence of Allah or where Allah came from, you cannot prove the existence of angels and Jinns and you cannot prove life after death. Unless you are a convert, it is part of your faith and you believe in it because you were born into a Muslim family and this is what you were conditioned to believe.

If you were born in a Christian, Hindu or Jewish family, you would be defending those religions with the same vigor. Any sane mind who puts logic over everything else will not follow any religion in the first place because as I explained above, logic and faith cannot coexist.

 

[Mamoon]

No need, your motives are obvious.

It is no coincidence that you come out defending Hinduism - surprise surprise - but never defend Islam when Hindutva supporters and Atheists members mock Islam, Islamic history, and Islamic beliefs.

When you show consistency, even in your hate, then come back and we can discuss your insecurities.

I proved to you that you are not a Muslim by choice. You cannot counter that, which is why you want to challenge my motives. My motive is to not talk anyone out of what he or she believes in because that defeats the purpose of faith.

 

[Technics 1210]

I proved to you that you are not a Muslim by choice.

No you did not, you just assumed, but whatever helps you sleep at night.

Happy travels.

PS: How is fatherhood treating you these days?

 

[Muhammad Saad]

@Muhammad Saad

This is a classic biased take that exemplifies what I am talking about. People believe what they want to believe which is perfectly fine. However, the problem is when people impose their beliefs on one another even both sides believe what they believe simply because they are conditioned to do so.

Please note that I am not attacking you or your beliefs - whatever I'm saying is applicable to everyone who thinks like this. It is mentioned in the Quran that during the Battle of Badr, Allah SWT sent an army of angels to fight alongside the Muslims which answers your question of why and how the Muslims were able to triumph in spite of being outnumbered.

Furthermore, history is filled with examples of battles won by smaller forces. The most famous example is the The Battle of Agincourt where 6,000 English soldiers defeated an army of 30,000 French soldiers and I'm pretty sure they were not aided by angels.

Would you consider this a miracle of Christianity and a proof of its correctness? King Henry V considered himself a divine ruler and he credit God for the victory after his heavily outnumbered army defeated the French against all the odds.

Moreover, there are future predictions and prophecies in every holy book not just the Quran.

Your views regarding the leadership of Prophet Muhammad PBUH and what he established is for us Muslims a prove of his Prophethood and Allah's decree. However, for a non-Muslim, it is simply his great leadership and not proof of divinity because history is full of great leaders who achieved extraordinary feats.

Take a look at what Alexander the Great achieved in such a short period of time. He declared himself a God and people believed him because no mortal man could achieve what he achieved.

Prophet Muhammad PBUH is widely regarded as a great leader by non-Muslims too. Michael H. Hart, a non-Muslim, ranked him as the most influential man in history because of his political and socioeconomic leadership.

As far as memorizing the Quran is concerned, any book can be memorized at a young age. It is not unique to the Quran. There are many people who have memorized the Bible and other religious books/scripts. It is not as widespread as memorizing the Quran because this practice is more widespread and common in Islam, not because Quran is easier to learn than other religious books.

Lastly, lets not talk about logic and blind faith. The foundation of every religion is based on blind faith because there are things that you cannot prove or explain but you believe in it is because it is your faith. Logic and faith cannot co-exist.

As a Muslim, you cannot prove the existence of Allah or where Allah came from, you cannot prove the existence of angels and Jinns and you cannot prove life after death. Unless you are a convert, it is part of your faith and you believe in it because you were born into a Muslim family and this is what you were conditioned to believe.

If you were born in a Christian, Hindu or Jewish family, you would be defending those religions with the same vigor. Any sane mind who puts logic over everything else will not follow any religion in the first place because as I explained above, logic and faith cannot coexist.

Some part of every religion is based on blind faith but Islam is the only religion which tells us to choose the religion by using your logic first and then get firm on it by blind faith , that’s the theme of Quran if you have read the translation

 

[Muhammad Saad]

Btw were you present there when the English 6000 soldiers defeated 30,000 French soldiers? So how can you conclude that there was no Devine help from Allah on King Edward? Allah can definitely help any one he desires

 

[Muhammad Saad]

I have done a deep research in comparative religion and I can go on and on and on this topic but sadly @Mamoon your way of twisting the things is out of ordinary, but I will just one thing I say that if you drop your negative lenses from your eyes and starts to observe the ayat (signs) of Allah you will found abundance of them which proves that Islam wants you to use your intellect in finding the god and after finding him one must obey his commandments blindly

 

[Muhammad Saad]

And I did my research on comparative religion around 10 years ago when I was going through existential crisis and I can safely say that I chose to become Muslim and I am proud of it not just because I was born a Muslim

 

[jeetu]

@Muhammad Saad

This is a classic biased take that exemplifies what I am talking about. People believe what they want to believe which is perfectly fine. However, the problem is when people impose their beliefs on one another even both sides believe what they believe simply because they are conditioned to do so.

Please note that I am not attacking you or your beliefs - whatever I'm saying is applicable to everyone who thinks like this. It is mentioned in the Quran that during the Battle of Badr, Allah SWT sent an army of angels to fight alongside the Muslims which answers your question of why and how the Muslims were able to triumph in spite of being outnumbered.

Furthermore, history is filled with examples of battles won by smaller forces. The most famous example is the The Battle of Agincourt where 6,000 English soldiers defeated an army of 30,000 French soldiers and I'm pretty sure they were not aided by angels.

Would you consider this a miracle of Christianity and a proof of its correctness? King Henry V considered himself a divine ruler and he credit God for the victory after his heavily outnumbered army defeated the French against all the odds.

Moreover, there are future predictions and prophecies in every holy book not just the Quran.

Your views regarding the leadership of Prophet Muhammad PBUH and what he established is for us Muslims a prove of his Prophethood and Allah's decree. However, for a non-Muslim, it is simply his great leadership and not proof of divinity because history is full of great leaders who achieved extraordinary feats.

Take a look at what Alexander the Great achieved in such a short period of time. He declared himself a God and people believed him because no mortal man could achieve what he achieved.

Prophet Muhammad PBUH is widely regarded as a great leader by non-Muslims too. Michael H. Hart, a non-Muslim, ranked him as the most influential man in history because of his political and socioeconomic leadership.

As far as memorizing the Quran is concerned, any book can be memorized at a young age. It is not unique to the Quran. There are many people who have memorized the Bible and other religious books/scripts. It is not as widespread as memorizing the Quran because this practice is more widespread and common in Islam, not because Quran is easier to learn than other religious books.

Lastly, lets not talk about logic and blind faith. The foundation of every religion is based on blind faith because there are things that you cannot prove or explain but you believe in it is because it is your faith. Logic and faith cannot co-exist.

As a Muslim, you cannot prove the existence of Allah or where Allah came from, you cannot prove the existence of angels and Jinns and you cannot prove life after death. Unless you are a convert, it is part of your faith and you believe in it because you were born into a Muslim family and this is what you were conditioned to believe.

If you were born in a Christian, Hindu or Jewish family, you would be defending those religions with the same vigor. Any sane mind who puts logic over everything else will not follow any religion in the first place because as I explained above, logic and faith cannot coexist.

IMHO You are the best poster here by mile. One again brilliant post. Being a doctor perhaps played a huge role in your way of thinking. Discarding the good values provide by religion and manipulating other other lessons to suit personal viscous agenda has been a human norm for ages. Sadly no one seems to see through it bar few. Hopefully next few generations will go past them.

 

[Muhammad Saad]

And I did my research on comparative religion around 10 years ago when I was going through existential crisis and I can safely say that I chose to become Muslim and I am proud of it not just because I was born a Muslim

And during my study of comparative religion I was strictly neutral and even put myself in Hindus , aethist and Christians shoes and asked my self what would have been my reaction for that particular ayat of Quran had I been born as Muslim/Christian/aethist

And one thing i can conclude from my experience that if you are hell bent on proving anything wrong you are not going to see the wider perspective of things and if your intentions is to argue for the sake of winning an argument and not to actually find truth you are going to reach any outcome unless you are guided by Allah out of his mercy.

@Mamoon i would really like a healthy discussion with you on this subject but only if you discuss the things with the possiblity and probability that you can be wrong in your observation

 

[Muhammad Saad]

And finally from my experience with non believers regarding the Ayat (Signs) of Allah I found it there are always two ways to interpret things , Those who are guided by Allah will observe his signs and interpret it correctly and those who are yet to be guided by Allah will interpret those same Ayat totally opposite

For eg Allah says in Quran 55:19-21

He has made the two seas to flow freely (so that) they meet together. (19)
Between them is a barrier which they cannot pass. (20)
So which of the favors of your Lord will you deny

Those who have faith will take it as a miracle and sign of Allah , How on earth our prophet knows about these two lakes as was in the desert of Arab? How on earth this phenomenon is even possible unless there is divine interpretation.

On the other hand those people who are yet to be guided by Allah will interpret it totally opposite , probably prophet Muhammad (Saw) some how know about that gulf of Mexico during his time and the two bodies of water doesn't get mix because of different density of each of them and it's a physical phenomenon (BTW who created the laws of physics in the first place? ahem)

So you get my point right? There are always two ways to interpret signs of Allah and only guided people can observe his signs.

@Mamoon so unless you are open with the possibility that you can be wrong in your interpretation of your views there is no point of actually discussing anything , so tell me if you are really interested in this discussion.

 

[Muhammad Saad]

@Mamoon

So our prophet (saw) was some how a perfect military strategist ,had the perfect knowledge of socio economics laws based on human fitrah ,had a great scientific knowledge , also had a numerous flukes in winning battles against all odds and also happens to be a great leader outside battles , all with the fact that he can't even read or write.

So you are still going to take a side with your views or you are accepting it that you can be wrong? and trust me there is nothing in being wrong we are just humans and can make mistakes

 

[Muhammad Saad]

Also he never told a lie and also happened to had the knowledge of the future and some how predicted the events which happened later in the future?

This all points to the fact that he was a perfect man in all walks of life so isn't it making sense to follow him and his belief?

 

[Cover Drive Six]

@Muhammad Saad

This is a classic biased take that exemplifies what I am talking about. People believe what they want to believe which is perfectly fine. However, the problem is when people impose their beliefs on one another even both sides believe what they believe simply because they are conditioned to do so.

Please note that I am not attacking you or your beliefs - whatever I'm saying is applicable to everyone who thinks like this. It is mentioned in the Quran that during the Battle of Badr, Allah SWT sent an army of angels to fight alongside the Muslims which answers your question of why and how the Muslims were able to triumph in spite of being outnumbered.

Furthermore, history is filled with examples of battles won by smaller forces. The most famous example is the The Battle of Agincourt where 6,000 English soldiers defeated an army of 30,000 French soldiers and I'm pretty sure they were not aided by angels.

Would you consider this a miracle of Christianity and a proof of its correctness? King Henry V considered himself a divine ruler and he credit God for the victory after his heavily outnumbered army defeated the French against all the odds.

Moreover, there are future predictions and prophecies in every holy book not just the Quran.

Your views regarding the leadership of Prophet Muhammad PBUH and what he established is for us Muslims a prove of his Prophethood and Allah's decree. However, for a non-Muslim, it is simply his great leadership and not proof of divinity because history is full of great leaders who achieved extraordinary feats.

Take a look at what Alexander the Great achieved in such a short period of time. He declared himself a God and people believed him because no mortal man could achieve what he achieved.

Prophet Muhammad PBUH is widely regarded as a great leader by non-Muslims too. Michael H. Hart, a non-Muslim, ranked him as the most influential man in history because of his political and socioeconomic leadership.

As far as memorizing the Quran is concerned, any book can be memorized at a young age. It is not unique to the Quran. There are many people who have memorized the Bible and other religious books/scripts. It is not as widespread as memorizing the Quran because this practice is more widespread and common in Islam, not because Quran is easier to learn than other religious books.

Lastly, lets not talk about logic and blind faith. The foundation of every religion is based on blind faith because there are things that you cannot prove or explain but you believe in it is because it is your faith. Logic and faith cannot co-exist.

As a Muslim, you cannot prove the existence of Allah or where Allah came from, you cannot prove the existence of angels and Jinns and you cannot prove life after death. Unless you are a convert, it is part of your faith and you believe in it because you were born into a Muslim family and this is what you were conditioned to believe.

If you were born in a Christian, Hindu or Jewish family, you would be defending those religions with the same vigor. Any sane mind who puts logic over everything else will not follow any religion in the first place because as I explained above, logic and faith cannot coexist.

One more Top Post.