Virat Kohli vs MS Dhoni - Who would you pick in ODIs?

[SLcric123]

As a cricketer,

VK is arguably the greatest chaser of all time, an exceptional fielder and an energetic captain.

On other hand, Dhoni is the greatest finisher of this era and arguably the greatest finisher of all time, ATG ODI captain and a smart keeper behind the gloves.

Who would you pick of the two if given choice?

 

[Hasan123]

Virat Kohli without a doubt and I am a fan of MSD.

 

[Justcrazy]

Virat Kohli , no doubt .

 

[The_Odd_One]

Can't pick someone who has scored not a single century outside Asia in any format.

Kohli can do everything better than Dhoni.

 

[troodon]

Kohli.

 

[Sachin136]

As a cricketer, Kohli doesn't come close to Dhoni. Dhoni is as good of an ODI batsman as Kohli, and one of the best captains, and a great keeper.

On batting alone, Kohli edges it.

 

[logicsupreme]

As a cricketer, Kohli doesn't come close to Dhoni. Dhoni is as good of an ODI batsman as Kohli, and one of the best captains, and a great keeper.

On batting alone, Kohli edges it.

Absolutely agree here. Kohli is an incredible player but as a cricketer overall he is not close yet.

 

[daytrader]

Dhoni was a big match player and is very clutch in crunch situations. His captaincy played a huge part in India winning the innaugral World T20 and the World Cup. Kohli is not there yet

 

[giri26]

To be frank, this is a very odd comparison. Dhoni is a wicket keeper and a lower order batsman (Even though in his early days he batted at number 3 a few times) and Kohli is a top order batter. The comparison does not make sense as a wicket keeper with an average of 50 is more valuable than a top order batter. So I will go with Dhoni. Dhoni in his prime was brilliant, comparing him at the fag end of his career is unfair. He was a brilliant Limited Overs captain as well. He is a safe keeper and a very good lower order batsman, he trumps Kohli I feel. Kohli is a great player in LOIs but this is a odd and unfair comparison.

 

[Sidilicious]

If I pick an ODI XI, I will have both Kohli and Dhoni

 

[par]

I will pick both in an all time best India XI.

 

[HuzaifaE]

Kohli would certainly make it over Dhoni as a batsman, but I think everyone here in underselling Dhoni as a commodity or in terms of overall value.

I honestly think I'd take MS because you can't find as a good of a combination in terms of:

1. Fantastic captaincy at the highest level
2. Clutch factor in terms of finishing games under enormous pressure
3. World class keeping
4. Dynamic, consistent batting with numerous gears

People can see MS through a distorted lens because of poor late career form, but prime Dhoni I feel is slightly more valuable than Virat.

I can get Viv in an all-time ODI XI and not have much of a change from if I had Kohli, but which other single player can provide the four qualities I listed above that MS possesses in abundance? I can't name anyone.

 

[King Kong]

Dhoni has never been a match winner. He is someone who hides behind other stroke makers, only to win the match when like 15 to win off the last 2 overs. Without Yuvraj, Raina and Kohli now, Dhoni would've lost India many matches with his method of batting. No surprise that there has never been an innings of Dhoni when a quick fifty needed to win the match.

 

[HuzaifaE]

Dhoni has never been a match winner. He is someone who hides behind other stroke makers, only to win the match when like 15 to win off the last 2 overs. Without Yuvraj, Raina and Kohli now, Dhoni would've lost India many matches with his method of batting. No surprise that there has never been an innings of Dhoni when a quick fifty needed to win the match.

)

He played one of the greatest match winning knocks in ODI history to drag India from a precarious position to a comprehensive victory in a world cup final, what on earth are you on about?

 

[Ab Fan]

MS Dhoni as a cricketer.. kohli is overrated. He isnt making an all time ODI XI.

 

[Ab Fan]

All time ODI XI

Gilchrist
Tendulkar
Ponting
Viv
ABDV
Dhoni
Kapil
Warne
Wasim
Garner
Mcgrath

I dont see what extra Kohli gives to make it to this all time XI.

 

[Zerotohero]

M S Dhoni, wake me when Kohli wins a world cup. prefer some one winning a world tournament than bilaterals.

 

[RamLakhan]

Dhoni has never been a match winner. He is someone who hides behind other stroke makers, only to win the match when like 15 to win off the last 2 overs. Without Yuvraj, Raina and Kohli now, Dhoni would've lost India many matches with his method of batting. No surprise that there has never been an innings of Dhoni when a quick fifty needed to win the match.

Ask Tendulkar of 90s how it pained him when he scored 2 times, 3 times that of Yuvaraj, Raina, Kohli everyone put together and India used to lose the game and all the blame went to him (Sachin) for not carrying the team across the line (though he took the team almost 90% of the line). Yuvaraj, Raina, Gambhir, etc could barely take to 40 or at the most 60% of that line, and Dhoni used to finish that and you don't understand the value of that! Even Kohli is now feeling the pinch like Sachin that there is probably nobody like Dhoni today (who now a broken mirror/shadow of his old self) to do that left out/finishing job to take credit for themselves or at least for the team's cause! You should say that Yuvaraj, Raina, Gambhir were luckier than Sachin and Kohli to have that prime Dhoni in their team! Sachin & Kohli themselves enjoyed the company of Dhoni (Sachin at the fag end of his career and Kohli at the start of his career!), ask them both they will tell the value of Dhoni and how they missed/missing him!

 

[Savage]

Can't pick someone who has scored not a single century outside Asia in any format.

We are only talking about ODIs.For a strong batting lineup,scoring centuries @6 is not easy.Dhoni has scored 10 century.M bevan scored only 6 century throughout his career.Misbah was best odi batsmen for pakistan(of his era) but he scored 0 century whereas many inferior pakistan batsmen scored lots more century than him.I don't mind if you criticize dhoni for his overseas performance but centuries are not the way to judge players like Dhoni,Bevan and Misbah.

Kohli can do everything better than Dhoni.

That's absolutely not true.
Dhoni At no 3,has scored 993 runs at @82.75 and SR 100 along with 2 century.
Kohli At no 5,6 &7 has scored 188 runs @26.85 and SR 97.40 along with 0 century.

You said this because kohli has played many finishing knocks in his career like Dhoni.But Batting at 5,6 and 7 and finishing is lot more difficult.

 

[Ab Fan]

Can't pick someone who has scored not a single century outside Asia in any format.

Kohli can do everything better than Dhoni.

Can he be one of those great tactician who can make batting side choke with spectacular field placement and rotation of bowling attack?

Can he play a WC final knock like the one Dhoni played? Probably yes but till now he hasn't.

But here we are talking about who is better cricketer.

 

[Ab Fan]

At this moment,

<B>As a batsmen</B>

AB
Kohli( should surpass AB till he retires)
Dhoni

<B>As a cricketer</B>

Dhoni
AB
Kohli

 

[The_Odd_One]

Can he be one of those great tactician who can make batting side choke with spectacular field placement and rotation of bowling attack?

Can he play a WC final knock like the one Dhoni played? Probably yes but till now he hasn't.

But here we are talking about who is better cricketer.

I was comparing their batting. Of course, as a cricketer Dhoni is superior.

 

[The_Odd_One]

We are only talking about ODIs.For a strong batting lineup,scoring centuries @6 is not easy.Dhoni has scored 10 century.M bevan scored only 6 century throughout his career.Misbah was best odi batsmen for pakistan(of his era) but he scored 0 century whereas many inferior pakistan batsmen scored lots more century than him.I don't mind if you criticize dhoni for his overseas performance but centuries are not the way to judge players like Dhoni,Bevan and Misbah.




That's absolutely not true.
Dhoni At no 3,has scored 993 runs at @82.75 and SR 100 along with 2 century.
Kohli At no 5,6 &7 has scored 188 runs @26.85 and SR 97.40 along with 0 century.

You said this because kohli has played many finishing knocks in his career like Dhoni.But Batting at 5,6 and 7 and finishing is lot more difficult.

The sample size is very low for those batting positions. Do you seriously think anyone can average 80+ if they played as many games as Kohli at #3? Besides, Dhoni's numbers at #3 are inflated because most of those games were played in Asia.

I'm not even interested in numbers. I'm more interested in the ability. Kohli cannot only build an innings but he can finish it as good as Dhoni.

 

[Bilal7]

As a player, it is definitely Dhoni. A batsman + keeper + captain is more useful than a specialist batsman. Kohli has not really done much as a captain for that to factor in this discussion.

 

[babajee]

As a player, it is definitely Dhoni. A batsman + keeper + captain is more useful than a specialist batsman. Kohli has not really done much as a captain for that to factor in this discussion.

At the moment Kohli is heavily reliant on Dhoni (in ODI) . His captaincy will be judged once MS has left the team.

 

[BaankeJi]

Dhoni is not the same player anymore. If you had asked this question 5 years back then it would have been different story.

But now it is Kohli without a doubt.

 

[Savage]

The sample size is very low for those batting positions. Do you seriously think anyone can average 80+ if they played as many games as Kohli at #3? Besides, Dhoni's numbers at #3 are inflated because most of those games were played in Asia.

I'm not even interested in numbers. I'm more interested in the ability. Kohli cannot only build an innings but he can finish it as good as Dhoni.

According to me,Scoring 1k runs @82.75 and SR 100 at no 3 is reasonable sample size.Atleast it shows that he most probably would've been successful at no 3.It certainly doesn't mean he would've average over 80 after playing 300 odi's.He most probably would've averaged around 53-57.Nobody doubts that Kohli is more talented than Dhoni but Kohli is yet to perform at no 5,6&7 and consistently score runs coming in at 35-40th over like Dhoni has done over the years.

 

[CricFan2012]

Kohli, because you already have Gilchrist as wicket keeper in that line up. Kohli is a beast of a player to be missed out

 

[CricFan2012]

All time ODI XI

Gilchrist
Tendulkar
Ponting
Viv
ABDV
Dhoni
Kapil
Warne
Wasim
Garner
Mcgrath

I dont see what extra Kohli gives to make it to this all time XI.

Why choose Garner with that small sample size?

Bond has similar stats and sample size and he played in a tougher bowling era compared to Garner, he was also a beast against the best batting at his time, the aussies, plus he didn't get to boost his stats against the weak Kiwi batting, while Garner's stats are inflated by not playing against the best batting of his time, the West Indies.

Still, I would rather choose someone with more matches and longevity rather than bond and garner, starc might actually get there if he can play close to 200 games or more.

Have to take those things into consideration.

 

[last_knight]

As a cricketer,

VK is arguably the greatest chaser of all time, an exceptional fielder and an energetic captain.

On other hand, Dhoni is the greatest finisher of this era and arguably the greatest finisher of all time, ATG ODI captain and a smart keeper behind the gloves.

Who would you pick of the two if given choice?

A tough one. You can rephrase it :
"Virat Kohli or MS Dhoni in opposition team, Who would you be more worried of"

 

[MenInG]

MS Dhoni beat Virat Kohli in the list of most admired men in India in 2019, according to a survey carried out by YouGov. MS Dhoni, who acquired an admiration score of 8.58%, is only behind Prime Minister Narendra Modi (15.66%) in the list of most admired men in India in 2019. Ratan Tata (8.02%), Barack Obama (7.36%) and Bill Gates (6.96%) are third, fourth and fifth in the list respectively. India captain Virat Kohli is seventh in the list with an admiration score of 4.46%. Just a place above Virat Kohli is cricket legend Sachin Tendulkar who has scored 5.81% as per the survey.

Among the other sports personalities, Portuguese and Juventus talisman Cristiano Ronaldo has the admiration score of 2.95% in India. According to the survey, Cristiano Ronaldo is more admired in India than Argentine superstar and FIFA Best men's player of the year 2019 Lionel Messi (2.32%).

Six-time World Championships gold medallist Mary Kom (10.36%) is the most admired women in India. She is also the only Indian women sports personality to make it to the list.

According to the survey, Bill Gates remains the world's most admired man, but Angelina Jolie has now been replaced by Michelle Obama as the world's most admired woman.

The report also said, "the whole top five men remain unchanged since last year. Former US president Barack Obama comes in second, and the third to fifth places are all occupied by Chinese figures: actor Jackie Chan in third, president Xi Jinping in fourth and businessman Jack Ma in fifth."

https://sports.ndtv.com/cricket/ms-...mp=1&akamai-rum=off&__twitter_impression=true

 

[FreePalestine]

Kohli is possibly the greatest ever ODI batsman in my book. And I am not a fan of MSD since his recent nationalistic antics... but would have to say that he has been a hugely successful ODI captain. Who I would take in my team depends on the other ten players i already have there

eg, in the current Pakistan team, I would take Dhoni in his prime because we are lacking a wk who can smash the ball in the last ten and finish games, but if I had Moin Khan, Razzaq and top bowlers like Akram and Akhtar a la 1999 wc side, then I would go for Kohli any day even though Dhoni is a far superior batsman to Moin.

 

[RainMan_]

Ms Dhoni easily.

Virat hasn't won anything of significance in his entire career.

 

[RainMan_]

There's no point in scoring runs in pointless bilaterals on today's placid wickets.

Anyone can do that.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

Ms Dhoni easily.

Virat hasn't won anything of significance in his entire career.

Quite similar to shakib.

 

[Ab Fan]

Both have degraded their legacy post WC 2019.

I will pick pre-2015 Dhoni because he gives me so much more than batting.

Overall, I think Kohli will take this because he is in the top 4 greatest ODI batters of all-time and Dhoni has his legacy a bit damaged due to his performance in last 3 years, especially.

 

[Hitman]

The only couple of Indian players I’ll pick ahead of Dhoni in ODI cricket by just a hair are Sachin and Kohli. Mind you, just by a hair.

 

[shantanu]

Its funny how people out of jealousy can deliberately trivialize bilaterals as meaningless. Scoring 80*s in wc against australia and southafrica in knockouts and semifinals is nothing because its t20s world cup.
Kohli not doing as well in Wc knockouts is the absolute worst thing in the world but pakistans superior bilateral record is matter of pride. Kohli has not done as well in knock outs is obviously true but the jealousy is evident in some pak fans
I bet pakistan would give a friggin limb for this overrated no-good bilateral bully.
You have to be blinded by hatred to not be in awe of what kohli has done in last 5-7 years. Day in day out. Churning out awesome like a machine. The volume of runs, the ability to chase, the ease with which he has outgunned legends of the past.
Javed miandad cost pakistan the 96 quarter final. The whole team chickened out in 99 world cup. Misbah couldnt score a single of the last ball in 2007.We all know how inzi fared in Wcs except the 92.
So many legends screwing up across decades in knockouts but kohli is a failure because he hasnt scored a double hundred in a knock out world cup match while half his career is yet to unfold.
How could kohli be that good if he is not a pakistan player. Yeah right.
Some haters never fail to disappoint.
Oh and by the way I would go for Dhoni. Because of the overall value he would bring . A legend indeed.

 

[andy0204]

In current situation I will pick Virat Kohli.

 

[jagatk]

)

He played one of the greatest match winning knocks in ODI history to drag India from a precarious position to a comprehensive victory in a world cup final, what on earth are you on about?

In what universe is 30-2 a less precarious situation than 114-3. Gambhir played the match winning innings, he saved india coming in at 1 down in the first over, then calmed the innings with a young kohli at 30-2, then basically won us the game with a partnership alongside dhoni. Dhoni played a great innings but it was gambhir who won us the game not dhoni.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Kohli easily. Even if he gets out on duck in ICC tournament KO matches, at least he won't be wasting balls.

 

[sweep_shot]

It is not a valid comparison. MSD is a keeper while Kohli is a batsman.

MSD at his peak was very valuable just like present Kohli is valuable.

But, if I have to pick one, it is obviously Kohli.

 

[JattMaula]

Not even a contest.

At his prime I would get a good batter, WK and captain out of MSD in ODIs.

Kaptaan is a decent enough bat but brings negativity and bad leadership to the team.

 

[Pakhs]

It has to be Virat - the thread is not really a good comparison. Better comparison would have been between kohli and Rohit.

 

[shantanu]

It has to be Virat - the thread is not really a good comparison. Better comparison would have been between kohli and Rohit.

Kohli and rohit wouldnt even be a comparison.
stats aside kohli

 

[Diffusion]

Kohli is obviously the better batsman but I think great lower order batsman of Dhonis quality are far harder to come by, especially combined with his captaincy and wicketkeeping.

If you think of all time great top order batsman you can pull out a list of 10-15 players without much thinking, but only 2 names really come up for lower middle order batsman - Bevan and Dhoni.

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

Most of the fans are comparing Peak Kohli with the current Dhoni and that's where the problem lies. Kohli has yet to win a big ICC tournament for India both as an individual and as a captain. I find it funny that some indian fans think of bilaterals as some sort of second grade cricket and rate IPL higher than that yet they rank Kohli above Dhoni who has won more ICC trophies both as a captain and as an individual.

I also find it funny when some so called experts choose Pathan over Amir because of Pathan's ability to bat but expose their hypocrisy when they have to choose between Kohli the batsman and Dhoni (players, wk and captain).

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

Peak Ms dhoni is hands down the greatest finisher ever, much better than bevan and consequently everyone else.

As a batsman kohli can play in any country unlike dhoni but dhonis mental skill is on other level.

I"ll pick kohli (only slightly ahead) as he is a run machine and his primary skill is more than enough to compensate for other shortcomings.

Secondly i dont believe in bilaterals being useless, i watch nearly every other bilateral match.
Wasim is a legend coz of his exploits in bilaterals not world cup.
Similarly waqar is a legend coz of his exploits in bilaterals.

If kohli performs well in his last world cup(2023) then all these talks of being a choker etc will end, so why accuse a person even before his career ends.

Choker means inability to handle pressure, but kohlis record in t20 wc tells that he isn't a choker. How can choker be a format dependent entity?

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

Dhoni won a world cup as an individual? When did this happen.
That guy was literally our worst batsman in t20 wc 2007,ct 2013 and wc 2011.
In what universe is performing in one innings similar to winning a world cup individually.

Mtlb kuch bhi likdo post k beech mai koi dekhega to hai nahi.

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

Dhoni won a world cup as an individual? When did this happen.
That guy was literally our worst batsman in t20 wc 2007,ct 2013 and wc 2011.
In what universe is performing in one innings similar to winning a world cup individually.

If Pathan can be a better player than Amir because of his batting and bowling why can't Dhoni be better than Kohli overall? I am using the logic you applied in Pathan vs Amir thread.

May be you were in dusri class when Dhoni played that match winning knock against Sri Lanka in the World Cup final. When was the last time Kohli played an inning like that in the world cup or CT final? Kohli is surely better than Dhoni in tests both as a player and captain but in ODI's there won't be another player like Dhoni for a long time.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

If Pathan can be a better player than Amir because of his batting and bowling why can't Dhoni be better than Kohli overall? I am using the logic you applied in Pathan vs Amir thread.

May be you were in dusri class when Dhoni played that match winning knock against Sri Lanka in the World Cup final. When was the last time Kohli played an inning like that in the world cup or CT final? Kohli is surely better than Dhoni in tests both as a player and captain but in ODI's there won't be another player like Dhoni for a long time.

Are u deliberately being ignorant?
Amir and pathan have nearly similar bowling stats,
Pathan
Odi
bowl avg-29
5wkt hauls-2

Test
bowling avg - 32
5 wkt hauls-7
10 wkt hauls-2

Mohd amir:
Odi
bowl avg-30
5 wkt hauls-1
Test
bowling avg - 30
5 wkt hauls - 4
10 wkt hauls-0

Pathan is actually slightly ahead of amir with the ball alone(but lets leave it)

Now i dont think i need to spell out their batting avgs coz you know the difference is huge.
Pathan avgs 31 in test with the bat with one hundred amir avgs 13.

So, basically
Bowling stats are similar
Big difference in batting abilities.

Now please if u want to reply then come up with something logical. Please.

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

Are u deliberately being ignorant?
Amir and pathan have nearly similar bowling stats,
Pathan
Odi
bowl avg-29
5wkt hauls-2

Test
bowling avg - 32
5 wkt hauls-7
10 wkt hauls-2

Mohd amir:
Odi
bowl avg-30
5 wkt hauls-1
Test
bowling avg - 30
5 wkt hauls - 4
10 wkt hauls-0

Pathan is actually slightly ahead of amir with the ball alone(but lets leave it)

Now i dont think i need to spell out their batting avgs coz you know the difference is huge.
Pathan avgs 31 in test with the bat with one hundred amir avgs 13.

So, basically
Bowling stats are similar
Big difference in batting abilities.

Now please if u want to reply then come up with something logical. Please.

That was my point. You brought batting stats to put Irfan above Amir. I haven't even mentioned the number of dropped catches on Amir's bowling. As a complete player I would pick Irfan but as a bowler alone Amir would be my choice.

And just like that I would pick Kohli as a batsman but overall I would pick Dhoni in ODI's. In tests I have already said Kohli is ahead both as a captain and as a batsman.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

That was my point. You brought batting stats to put Irfan above Amir. I haven't even mentioned the number of dropped catches on Amir's bowling. As a complete player I would pick Irfan but as a bowler alone Amir would be my choice.

And just like that I would pick Kohli as a batsman but overall I would pick Dhoni in ODI's. In tests I have already said Kohli is ahead both as a captain and as a batsman.

Again,
Irfan and mohd amir have similar bowling stats. So irfans batting puts him ahead
Now tell me in what universe are dhonis and kohlis batting stats identical.

I am literally spelling it out for u.

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

Again,
Irfan and mohd amir have similar bowling stats. So irfans batting puts him ahead
Now tell me in what universe are dhonis and kohlis batting stats identical.

I am literally spelling it out for u.

Do you even read before replying? I clearly mentioned I would pick Kohli as a batsman but overall I would Dhoni because of his captaincy and wicket keeping in ODI's? Is that easy now?

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

Do you even read before replying? I clearly mentioned I would pick Kohli as a batsman but overall I would Dhoni because of his captaincy and wicket keeping in ODI's? Is that easy now?

My goodness.
I am done with u brother.
After seeing this response i have no conflicts with u, you have my sympathies.

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

My goodness.
I am done with u brother.
After seeing this response i have no conflicts with u, you have my sympathies.

I think apart from you everyone in this thread can understand my point. You need to sympathise with yourself now.

 

[ManFan]

There has not been a better WK-batsman than MS Dhoni perhaps other than Gilchrist in ODI’s.

Add to that, a fantastic cricketing brain and inspirational leader, this one is an easy pick.

 

[ahmadharis1]

Kohli hands down. Nothing against Dhoni but 9 times out of 10 you take the greatest ODI batsman of all time

 

[Pakhs]

Kohli and rohit wouldnt even be a comparison.
stats aside kohli

Rohits 4 100s in WC has changed that a little bit.

 

[shantanu]

Rohits 4 100s in WC has changed that a little bit.

The ability to close matches out consistently over the years trumps every other skill. Sport is about winning, kohli brings the team home all the time if only he gets set. You can't put a price on this. Sharma is a delight no doubt, but kohli is India's belief in themselves.

 

[Pakhs]

The ability to close matches out consistently over the years trumps every other skill. Sport is about winning, kohli brings the team home all the time if only he gets set. You can't put a price on this. Sharma is a delight no doubt, but kohli is India's belief in themselves.

This is precisely what has been questioned here about Kholi - He seems to struggle to do it on the biggest stage which is ICC finals or WC. He has played 3 WCs now and in every one of them he has been upstaged by many other batsmen. He has not taken his team home.

Obviously still a great player but scoring decisive 100s in finals or even a decisive innings in finals is something else. Like Ponting innings against India if he didnt score the 100 he did I have no doubt India would have been able to chase around 300 score. Or Stoke innings in the most recent WC final.

 

[shantanu]

This is precisely what has been questioned here about Kholi - He seems to struggle to do it on the biggest stage which is ICC finals or WC. He has played 3 WCs now and in every one of them he has been upstaged by many other batsmen. He has not taken his team home.

Obviously still a great player but scoring decisive 100s in finals or even a decisive innings in finals is something else. Like Ponting innings against India if he didnt score the 100 he did I have no doubt India would have been able to chase around 300 score. Or Stoke innings in the most recent WC final.

Then by your assessment damien martin must be a better player than kohli?
I largely agree with you. But even without the cherry on top the cake is still a delicious one.
I am talking about his overall record across formats.
He has performed brillinatly in the icc t20 knockouts against mighty Australia and South africa. He could do well to replicate the success in odi format too. That would put an end to this silly debate.
When you operate at a level that kohli does the people start expecting you to deliver impossibles too. Happened with tendulkar too. People expected him to score centuries by the bucketloads every series.
Thats the price of greatness.
And he has a number of chances remaining. He is too good not to put this right.
Cheers

 

[Hasan123]

Kohli is a great top order player and great finisher . Dhoni is a brilliant LO cricketer, but I’ll take Kohli in LO as a batter which should be the choice as Kohli is not a keeper and has only been LO captain for 2 years.

 

[Pakhs]

Then by your assessment damien martin must be a better player than kohli?
I largely agree with you. But even without the cherry on top the cake is still a delicious one.
I am talking about his overall record across formats.
He has performed brillinatly in the icc t20 knockouts against mighty Australia and South africa. He could do well to replicate the success in odi format too. That would put an end to this silly debate.
When you operate at a level that kohli does the people start expecting you to deliver impossibles too. Happened with tendulkar too. People expected him to score centuries by the bucketloads every series.
Thats the price of greatness.
And he has a number of chances remaining. He is too good not to put this right.
Cheers

He is a great player no doubt but we are comparing greats here so bar is very high! to be clear I am not comparing Martyn to Kohli though former was by no means a bad players but not at the same level. I have no doubt Ben Stokes will go down in history second only to Imran Khan as the best all-rounder ever in terms of influence on his team.

Both Ponting and Stokes have the appetite for big occasions. Kholi unbelievably consistent but so far lacking in important absolute crunch situation. He himself admitted that NZ created pressure at the top and we lost wickets. I am huge fan of Kholi but I also have to say what I have seen so far.

Subcontinent by in large have produced greats who have been lacking in crunch pressure situation with the exception of Miandad, Gavaskar and maybe Dravid. They had plenty of talent but not the personality to stand out and delivery when it was absolutely crucial.

For a long time I thought Kohli had the same personality as Miandad who loved a fight and had this siege mentality. But so far I have been surprised! he still has time.

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

He is a great player no doubt but we are comparing greats here so bar is very high! to be clear I am not comparing Martyn to Kohli though former was by no means a bad players but not at the same level. I have no doubt Ben Stokes will go down in history second only to Imran Khan as the best all-rounder ever in terms of influence on his team.

Both Ponting and Stokes have the appetite for big occasions. Kholi unbelievably consistent but so far lacking in important absolute crunch situation. He himself admitted that NZ created pressure at the top and we lost wickets. I am huge fan of Kholi but I also have to say what I have seen so far.

Subcontinent by in large have produced greats who have been lacking in crunch pressure situation with the exception of Miandad, Gavaskar and maybe Dravid. They had plenty of talent but not the personality to stand out and delivery when it was absolutely crucial.

For a long time I thought Kohli had the same personality as Miandad who loved a fight and had this siege mentality. But so far I have been surprised! he still has time.

Well said. Kohli has yet to play an inning like Ponting in 2003 World Cup, Dhoni and Gambhir in 2011 World Cup. Kohli is just like South African team of last decade. He is great in bilaterals and small tournaments but goes missing in World Cup's most important matches. As you said he still has time to correct that.

 

[MMHS]

MSD - any day. Kohli is a run machine playing at 3 in 300+ era with every possible rule in favor of batsman, and he is making his hay in bilateral when these days often the best XI doesn't participate. Some of the tricks that MS possess is universal, regardless of era, it invaluable. Kohli had a golden opportunity to mark his greatness in this WC with every rule in favor of batsman (Which I expect to change in future to bring more balance in the game), and he was at his best condition in terms of age, form & fitness - and he failed measurably.

I am afraid, 2019 WC tarnished VK's reputation as an ODI ATG - he won't ever catch Viv and always will remain behind SRT, probably his contemporary AB as well, who also was a monster in bilateral (& in ICC events as well, but didn't win anything).

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

MSD - any day. Kohli is a run machine playing at 3 in 300+ era with every possible rule in favor of batsman, and he is making his hay in bilateral when these days often the best XI doesn't participate. Some of the tricks that MS possess is universal, regardless of era, it invaluable. Kohli had a golden opportunity to mark his greatness in this WC with every rule in favor of batsman (Which I expect to change in future to bring more balance in the game), and he was at his best condition in terms of age, form & fitness - and he failed measurably.

I am afraid, 2019 WC tarnished VK's reputation as an ODI ATG - he won't ever catch Viv and always will remain behind SRT, probably his contemporary AB as well, who also was a monster in bilateral (& in ICC events as well, but didn't win anything).

So are u doubting his ability to play against good bowlers?
Or are u doubting his ability to play in tough conditions?

Bcoz if this is the case then you are completely wrong, he has proven time and time again that he can play in any condition against any kind of bowling attacks.
Msd as you know was never good enough overseas.

 

[MMHS]

So are u doubting his ability to play against good bowlers?
Or are u doubting his ability to play in tough conditions?

Bcoz if this is the case then you are completely wrong, he has proven time and time again that he can play in any condition against any kind of bowling attacks.
Msd as you know was never good enough overseas.

I am doubting neither.

But, it's a question of role profile, and contribution to the cause. Playing for IND, VK is head and shoulders above other players, but can he replace SRT as opener, or Viv at 3? His record at 5/6 suggests he won't replace Zaheer or Bevan or Ponting at 5 either; only position left is No. 4 - can he replace AB there - not in my team. MSD has a better chance may be to sneak past Gilly as the WK.

Volume of run is immaterial to me, otherwise you can check my post probably sometimes in 2012 - ".... if anyone can break SRT's ODI record by volume, it's Kohli - he is playing in batting friendlier era with high scores and there lot more "soft" games played these days ......."

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

I am doubting neither.

But, it's a question of role profile, and contribution to the cause. Playing for IND, VK is head and shoulders above other players, but can he replace SRT as opener, or Viv at 3? His record at 5/6 suggests he won't replace Zaheer or Bevan or Ponting at 5 either; only position left is No. 4 - can he replace AB there - not in my team. MSD has a better chance may be to sneak past Gilly as the WK.

Volume of run is immaterial to me, otherwise you can check my post probably sometimes in 2012 - ".... if anyone can break SRT's ODI record by volume, it's Kohli - he is playing in batting friendlier era with high scores and there lot more "soft" games played these days ......."

I would also pick Dhoni as a complete package and my number 7 which is quite rare these days.

 

[shantanu]

He is a great player no doubt but we are comparing greats here so bar is very high! to be clear I am not comparing Martyn to Kohli though former was by no means a bad players but not at the same level. I have no doubt Ben Stokes will go down in history second only to Imran Khan as the best all-rounder ever in terms of influence on his team.

Both Ponting and Stokes have the appetite for big occasions. Kholi unbelievably consistent but so far lacking in important absolute crunch situation. He himself admitted that NZ created pressure at the top and we lost wickets. I am huge fan of Kholi but I also have to say what I have seen so far.

Subcontinent by in large have produced greats who have been lacking in crunch pressure situation with the exception of Miandad, Gavaskar and maybe Dravid. They had plenty of talent but not the personality to stand out and delivery when it was absolutely crucial.

For a long time I thought Kohli had the same personality as Miandad who loved a fight and had this siege mentality. But so far I have been surprised! he still has time.

We have had Dhoni for crunch situations for such a long time. You are talking about seige mentality with respect to Miandad; Gary Kirsten actually said he would go to war with Dhoni alongside him.
Cant believe you assume Miandad as a clutch player in pressure situations and did not include Dhoni.
I think even Gambhir was a better pressure player than Miandad. Miandad got hyped because of the indo-pak thing otherwise any player whose avergae drops to half outside home would never be considered mentally strong. That is just too damning a stat to simply explain away even if you were to try the "context is all important" argument.
Yousuf youhana was your greatest batsmen in my opinion along with Saeed Anwar. Really enjoyed his drives.
Gavaskar was not a pressure player. He is the greatest batsmen from subcontinent on tests because he had the best technique and a sound mind.
And kohli has delieverd in a knockout versus Australia and in a world cup semifinal versus SA in the world cup albeit T20. A world cup semifinal is nearly the biggest stage you could hope for and you need to know this and note this.
Its a different thing if people want to criticise him unless he smokes a last ball six in an Odi world cup final while chasing a world record 476 runs stitching a partnership of 180* with the last man Bumrah!
You have to understand that he did not fail as much as the New-Zealand bowlers were simply superb under the cloud cover. Have you not seen what newzealand bowlers are capable of under a cloud cover. A scoreline like 15/4 is not uncommon against the likes of Boult and Henry in optimal conditions. It was the ONLY scenario in which India could have lost to New-Zealand and the dominoes just fell that way. No other player bar Steve smith probably could have survived the initial burst without a whole lot of luck in that wretched semifinal.
But it is this uncertainty that lends beauty to this game. So its ok. I as an indian fan take pride in my teams consistency and the way its growing from strength to strength.
Its still a wonderful game.

 

[Pakhs]

We have had Dhoni for crunch situations for such a long time. You are talking about seige mentality with respect to Miandad; Gary Kirsten actually said he would go to war with Dhoni alongside him.
Cant believe you assume Miandad as a clutch player in pressure situations and did not include Dhoni.
I think even Gambhir was a better pressure player than Miandad. Miandad got hyped because of the indo-pak thing otherwise any player whose avergae drops to half outside home would never be considered mentally strong. That is just too damning a stat to simply explain away even if you were to try the "context is all important" argument.
Yousuf youhana was your greatest batsmen in my opinion along with Saeed Anwar. Really enjoyed his drives.
Gavaskar was not a pressure player. He is the greatest batsmen from subcontinent on tests because he had the best technique and a sound mind.
And kohli has delieverd in a knockout versus Australia and in a world cup semifinal versus SA in the world cup albeit T20. A world cup semifinal is nearly the biggest stage you could hope for and you need to know this and note this.
Its a different thing if people want to criticise him unless he smokes a last ball six in an Odi world cup final while chasing a world record 476 runs stitching a partnership of 180* with the last man Bumrah!
You have to understand that he did not fail as much as the New-Zealand bowlers were simply superb under the cloud cover. Have you not seen what newzealand bowlers are capable of under a cloud cover. A scoreline like 15/4 is not uncommon against the likes of Boult and Henry in optimal conditions. It was the ONLY scenario in which India could have lost to New-Zealand and the dominoes just fell that way. No other player bar Steve smith probably could have survived the initial burst without a whole lot of luck in that wretched semifinal.
But it is this uncertainty that lends beauty to this game. So its ok. I as an indian fan take pride in my teams consistency and the way its growing from strength to strength.
Its still a wonderful game.

Bro Okay I am not going to argue with your personal opinions. But miandad got stuck in on all clutch ICC matches. Personally I dont take T20 to judge players but I like the format as an entertainment factor only. You could argue about Dhoni which is fine but he only ever played one innings of note in WCs and not a lot else. Although his chances have been few and far between to play clutch innings at the same time. You could argue he surrendered against England in my opinion should have gone down fighting although would have still resulted in loss and got run-out in semi - final so we can ignore that one.

Gavaskar for me was a clutch player who was up for the fight in test matches you never used to play so many one days in his time.