Viv Richards vs Virat Kohli vs Sachin Tendulkar vs Ricky Ponting - Who is the GOAT in ODIs?

[Suleiman]

I think it’s time to address the elephant in the room. Mods, please add poll.

Am creating this thread because I’m torn on who out of these 4 is the true GOAT. They are all ATGs, but who stands above the rest? There’s been a lot of debate in another thread on Kohli’s validity as the best ever, and I want to see this question settle amongst the 4 players who I think have claim to the title.

Currently I’m leaning towards Viv equal to or marginally greater than SRT, then a smidge behind SRT is Kohli and Ponting as equals.

But I want to get to a clear cut conclusion. And until Kohli does something insane in his remaining years to remove any doubt altogether and truly reach GOAT status I think this topic of discussion will be a grey area. I think you can argue any of Viv, SRT, and Kohli being GOAT level with Ponting as an outside pick.

Personally, whenever this comparison comes to mind over the last year or so, my ranking of the 4 and who out of them is goat changes. The above is how I see it currently.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Virat,
Viv,
Ponting

Tendulkar isn't in the equation for me in LOIs.

 

[JaDed]

1.Viv
2.Srt

 

[Hitman]

1. Viv
2. SRT
3. Kohli
4. Ponting

 

[Technics 1210]

All 4 are great players. No point in debating their style etc, but lets talk about achievements. In ODI Cricket, it is very difficult to define a GOAT without silverware. We can talk about centuries, averages, bilateral series till we are blue, but in ODI, the World Cup and the ICC Champions trophy are the only 2 silverwares up for grabs. I will not list the Champion Trophy wins since CT tournament was not around during Viv's career, but in terms of World Cups:

Viv Richards - 2 World Cups
Sachin Tendulkar - 1 World Cup
Virat Kohli - 1 World Cup
Ricky Ponting - 3 World Cups

Ponting wins hands down with 3 WC wins.



Then you have captaincy. We all know the responsibility of a cricket captain trumps the responsibility of any captain of any other sport. All 4 have been captained their ODI teams, but Ricky Ponting wins the captaincy round too. Not only having captained Australia to 2 World Cup victories, but Ponting has the best percentage win in ODIs as captain - 165 wins out of 230 matches as captain - 76% win rate.

Viv Richards - 103 Matches - 59 wins - 39 losses - win rate 60.10%
Sachin Tendulkar - 73 Matches - 23 wins - 43 losses - win rate 35.07%
Virat Kohli - 95 matches - 65 wins - 27 losses - win rate 70.43%
Ricky Ponting - 230 matches - 165 wins - 51 losses - win rate 76.14%

(Excluding Tied and NR matches)

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/records/283747.html

A phenomenal captaincy record in ODI - the best as it stands. His ODI captaincy in World Cups is even more phenomenal, 29 matches, 26 wins, 1 loss, 2 NR. Outstanding.



In terms of ODI averages and total runs scored:

Viv Richards - 47.00 / 6721 runs
Sachin Tendulkar - 44.83 / 18426 runs
Virat Kohli - 58.00 / 12762 runs
Ricky Ponting - 42.03 / 13704 runs

Obviously SRT and Kohli lead this criteria, but Ponting's runs have contributed to more ODI wins, including World Cup wins.


There is only one ODI GOAT for me - Ricky Thomas Ponting

 

[Suleiman]

1. Viv
2. SRT
3. Kohli
4. Ponting

Yeah. This is how I see it currently too.

 

[Hitman]

All 4 are great players. No point in debating their style etc, but lets talk about achievements. In ODI Cricket, it is very difficult to define a GOAT without silverware. We can talk about centuries, averages, bilateral series till we are blue, but in ODI, the World Cup and the ICC Champions trophy are the only 2 silverwares up for grabs. I will not list the Champion Trophy wins since CT tournament was not around during Viv's career, but in terms of World Cups:

Viv Richards - 2 World Cups
Sachin Tendulkar - 1 World Cup
Virat Kohli - 1 World Cup
Ricky Ponting - 3 World Cups

Ponting wins hands down with 3 WC wins.



Then you have captaincy. We all know the responsibility of a cricket captain trumps the responsibility of any captain of any other sport. All 4 have been captained their ODI teams, but Ricky Ponting wins the captaincy round too. Not only having captained Australia to 2 World Cup victories, but Ponting has the best percentage win in ODIs as captain - 165 wins out of 230 matches as captain - 76% win rate.

Viv Richards - 103 Matches - 59 wins - 39 losses - win rate 60.10%
Sachin Tendulkar - 73 Matches - 23 wins - 43 losses - win rate 35.07%
Virat Kohli - 95 matches - 65 wins - 27 losses - win rate 70.43%
Ricky Ponting - 230 matches - 165 wins - 51 losses - win rate 76.14%

(Excluding Tied and NR matches)

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/records/283747.html

A phenomenal captaincy record in ODI - the best as it stands. His ODI captaincy in World Cups is even more phenomenal, 29 matches, 26 wins, 1 loss, 2 NR. Outstanding.



In terms of ODI averages and total runs scored:

Viv Richards - 47.00 / 6721 runs
Sachin Tendulkar - 44.83 / 18426 runs
Virat Kohli - 58.00 / 12762 runs
Ricky Ponting - 42.03 / 13704 runs

Obviously SRT and Kohli lead this criteria, but Ponting's runs have contributed to more ODI wins, including World Cup wins.


There is only one ODI GOAT for me - Ricky Thomas Ponting

You forgot to mention the strike rates of Viv, Tendulkar and Ponting. Not including Kohli though because he played in a different era. I hope it was not deliberate.

 

[Aman]

1) Sachin
2) Viv
3) Ponting

Kohli I'll rate after the WC, if he dominates and wins the WC he goes into the discussion for top 3, if not the GOAT. He fails again and you start talking about putting others ahead of him in the top 5.

 

[Aseem_04]

Ricky ponting shouldn't be even in list of odi Goats, His win percentage is highest not because of his extraordinary skills it was his team, so it's absurd to count him in list, The Greatest Batsman of Odis Virat King Kohli
1. Virat Kohli
2.Viv Richards
3. Sachin

 

[Aman]

Kohli is a lot like the Aaron Rodgers of cricket. A lot of empty calories, nothing to show in the big stage.

Not many, if any as good as him when it comes to regular season but come the play offs/ICC tournaments. He can't lead a team to the promise land despite having a good team.

 

[Aman]

Yeah. This is how I see it currently too.

If Kohli ghosts another WC are you keeping him in your top 3?

 

[Raja111]

For me Goat is someone who has achieved exceptional things throughout his career and stand apart from the rest! Every performances matter, can't pick and choose performances and don't care about who is the best captain or who has how many silverwares etc either as it involves other players performances aswell and defeats the purpose

Though all 4 players are great. For me Virat is the Goat!

 

[Kraetoz]

Viv Richards - 2 World Cups
Sachin Tendulkar - 1 World Cup
Virat Kohli - 1 World Cup
Ricky Ponting - 3 World Cups

Ponting wins hands down with 3 WC wins.

How about

Viv Richards - 2 world cups
Sachin Tendulkar - Half world cup
Virat Kohli - The other half of same world cup
Ricky Ponting - 3 world cups

 

[Aman]

How about

Viv Richards - 2 world cups
Sachin Tendulkar - Half world cup
Virat Kohli - The other half of same world cup
Ricky Ponting - 3 world cups

Why does Sachin get half a WC with Kohli?

Sachin was the main man, Kohli wasn't even a notable side character.

 

[Aman]

For me Goat is someone who has achieved exceptional things throughout his career and stand apart from the rest! Every performances matter, can't pick and choose performances and don't care about who is the best captain or who has how many silverwares etc either as it involves other players performances aswell and defeats the purpose

Though all 4 players are great. For me Virat is the Goat!

Does the WC not exist in your criteria and are JAMODIS the be all and end all?

 

[Technics 1210]

Silverware matters, because hardly anyone remembers (without Google) the accumulated performances in a bilateral ODI series, unless there is a standout statistical achievement, such as SRT's 200*.

Otherwise in ODI, everyone remembers performances in a World Cup or Champions Trophy (without Google).

 

[jnaveen1980]

This world cup count is one of the weakest argument you can present for a batsman. That is just an icing on the cake not the cake itself. Unlike football where you don't get OUT in cricket you can get OUT and that's it. Besides on an absolute road where every bowler travel batting is not exactly a tough gig. Aravinda De Silva's back to back knocks trump pretty much every world cup knockout innings. Both came under pressure. Same way Mohinder Amarnath's bowling in the final is still legendary. Otherwise Tendulkar satisfies all the criterias. He evolved as the game evolved.

 

[Raja111]

Does the WC not exist in your criteria and are JAMODIS the be all and end all?

I won't give much preference to something that happens once every 4 years. You sound like WC is the be all and end all. Then there's no point in playing the sport. Just show up during a couple of WCs and retire. Same goes for other sports aswell.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Why does Sachin get half a WC with Kohli?

Sachin was the main man, Kohli wasn't even a notable side character.

2003 world cup belongs to brett lee. India chose to field first exclusively because of Brett Lee threat. Otherwise india had a chance to bat Australia out. Who didn't score in that innings. Gilchrist/Hayden/Martyn, Ponting. Later India scored 234 in 40 overs. At one point India was 147/2 in 23 overs. In modern era they would have chased it with ease. No single individual earns a world cup unless he plays a match winning role in several matches.

 

[Technics 1210]

2003 World Cup.

No one remembers SRT being the highest run scorer in the tournament, or his player of the series award, but you can bet every Indian who was watching that day, and anyone else watching, remembers Ponting's 140* in the final.

 

[Technics 1210]

On another note, captaincy does matter too, because its Indians fans who hail Dhoni as the best Asian captain ever, and one of the best in the game, simply because he is the only captain to have won the WC, CT, and the T20 WC. Take these silverwares out and Dhoni is a nobody.

Captaincy, along with Silverware, matter, so lets not be selective of the criteria itself when debating GOAT candidates.

 

[Suleiman]

If Kohli ghosts another WC are you keeping him in your top 3?

Hard to say until the WC happens, but let’s take the two extremes for now. If he flops completely this WC then I will have him tied at 3 with Ponting at that point. If he performs when it matters in it then he’ll be tied with Viv.

But my overall rating system is consistency and impact. I used to give WC performances way more weight than I do now. Having said that, I think all 4 have done pretty well in tournaments and ODI series as a whole to have a claim at GOAT level.

IMO Kohli’s failures in 50 over tournaments are exaggerated to a degree.

 

[jnaveen1980]

2003 World Cup.

No one remembers SRT being the highest run scorer in the tournament, or his player of the series award, but you can bet every Indian who was watching that day, and anyone else watching, remembers Ponting's 140* in the final.

I do remember. pretty much everyone will remember. You remembered. That is why you mentioned it

 

[Colorblind Genius]

I think it’s time to address the elephant in the room. Mods, please add poll.

Am creating this thread because I’m torn on who out of these 4 is the true GOAT. They are all ATGs, but who stands above the rest? There’s been a lot of debate in another thread on Kohli’s validity as the best ever, and I want to see this question settle amongst the 4 players who I think have claim to the title.

Currently I’m leaning towards Viv equal to or marginally greater than SRT, then a smidge behind SRT is Kohli and Ponting as equals.

But I want to get to a clear cut conclusion. And until Kohli does something insane in his remaining years to remove any doubt altogether and truly reach GOAT status I think this topic of discussion will be a grey area. I think you can argue any of Viv, SRT, and Kohli being GOAT level with Ponting as an outside pick.

Personally, whenever this comparison comes to mind over the last year or so, my ranking of the 4 and who out of them is goat changes. The above is how I see it currently.

Quite an idiocy to compare Viv the rest in your list.

Viv played in an altogether different era.

Had Tendulkar, Kohli and Ponting played with a paper thin bat in 80 yard boundaries with no helmet on pitches that were not covered overnight and no b-ess rules like free hit, and one bouncer per over, and that too against the Lillies and Thompsons and Hadlees and Bothams and Imrans- they wouldve gotten their paints wet everytime. There is no comparison.

 

[Technics 1210]

2003 world cup belongs to brett lee. India chose to field first exclusively because of Brett Lee threat. Otherwise india had a chance to bat Australia out. Who didn't score in that innings. Gilchrist/Hayden/Martyn, Ponting. Later India scored 234 in 40 overs. At one point India was 147/2 in 23 overs. In modern era they would have chased it with ease. No single individual earns a world cup unless he plays a match winning role in several matches.

India won the toss, and Ganguly, elected to field, hoping to take advantage of a pitch left damp by dew and rain.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_Cricket_World_Cup

As for India chasing that total in the modern era, you seem to forget Australia could have piled on 400+ if that final was played in the modern era.

Brett Lee was barely a threat in the final, he only took 2 wickets (Ganguly and Srinath), but the real damage was done by McGrath who caugh & bowled Tendulkar in the 1st over.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

I think it’s time to address the elephant in the room. Mods, please add poll.

Am creating this thread because I’m torn on who out of these 4 is the true GOAT. They are all ATGs, but who stands above the rest? There’s been a lot of debate in another thread on Kohli’s validity as the best ever, and I want to see this question settle amongst the 4 players who I think have claim to the title.

Currently I’m leaning towards Viv equal to or marginally greater than SRT, then a smidge behind SRT is Kohli and Ponting as equals.

But I want to get to a clear cut conclusion. And until Kohli does something insane in his remaining years to remove any doubt altogether and truly reach GOAT status I think this topic of discussion will be a grey area. I think you can argue any of Viv, SRT, and Kohli being GOAT level with Ponting as an outside pick.

Personally, whenever this comparison comes to mind over the last year or so, my ranking of the 4 and who out of them is goat changes. The above is how I see it currently.

Quite an idiocy to compare Viv the rest in your list.

Viv played in an altogether different era.

Had Tendulkar, Kohli and Ponting played with a paper thin bat in 80 yard boundaries with no helmet on pitches that were not covered overnight and no b-ess rules like free hit, and one bouncer per over, and that too against the Lillies and Thompsons and Hadlees and Bothams and Imrans- they wouldve gotten their paints wet everytime. There is no comparison.

 

[Technics 1210]

I do remember. pretty much everyone will remember. You remembered. That is why you mentioned it

Yes, I remember because it's a World Cup. Silverware which you claim is a weak argument yet here you are reminiscing that 2003 WC final. Which proves my point that in ODI, World Cups are indeed remembered and hold heavy weight in the GOAT debate.

 

[Sachin136]

Does the WC not exist in your criteria and are JAMODIS the be all and end all?

2015 ICC World Cup: 50.83 Average, 81.55 SR
2019 ICC World Cup: 55.38 Average, 94.06 SR
2013 ICC Champions Trophy 58.67 Average, 95.65 SR
2017 ICC Champions Trophy: 129.00 Average, 98.85 SR

 

[SamNJ]

SRT = Viv - Sheer dominance and being ahead of their era. SRT slightly edges Viv for the number of < 25 avg bowlers he faced.
Ponting - some great clutch performances
Kohli - Made merry in bilaterals against weak teams or B attacks. WC knock outs all single digit scores. Difficult to rate him.

 

[jnaveen1980]

if someone is part of an ATG side, attributing the win to one individual is not correct. They are going to win one way or the other. Gilchrist has the highest runs in wc finals in wc history. 263 runs. 1 century 2 fifties. Punter has one century. 106 in the other 3 finals. Viv Richards 138 in one innings 3 and 33 in the other two finals. Just imagine opposition team opened their batting with Boycott and Brearely.Both duds with bat. WI was going to win anyway. A one-sided contest. All the three Australian defeat of subcontinent sides were one-sided. Australia had a 34 match world cup winning streak until it was broken in 2011.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Yes, I remember because it's a World Cup. Silverware which you claim is a weak argument yet here you are reminiscing that 2003 WC final. Which proves my point that in ODI, World Cups are indeed remembered and hold heavy weight in the GOAT debate.

Where will you put ABDV then? He has outstanding world cup record. Should we say Mohinder Amarnath is the GOAT ODI bowler because he only averages 4.00 in world cup final. Especially in winning match. Akram averages 16 same number of wickets.

 

[Technics 1210]

if someone is part of an ATG side, attributing the win to one individual is not correct. They are going to win one way or the other. Gilchrist has the highest runs in wc finals in wc history. 263 runs. 1 century 2 fifties. Punter has one century. 106 in the other 3 finals. Viv Richards 138 in one innings 3 and 33 in the other two finals. Just imagine opposition team opened their batting with Boycott and Brearely.Both duds with bat. WI was going to win anyway. A one-sided contest. All the three Australian defeat of subcontinent sides were one-sided. Australia had a 34 match world cup winning streak until it was broken in 2011.

These are finer details which your average fan is not going to remember.

Stop 100 random cricket fans and ask them if they watched the 2003 WC and what do they remember about the 2003 WC, and the most popular answer will be that Australia won, and the second most popular answer would be Ponting's 140*.

Same exercise for any World Cup and you will see the same pattern. Even today, those who watched the 1992 WC, will remember Pakistan won, and Wasim Akram's 2 consecutive wickets.

Player of the match, player of the series, winning streaks, etc are tertiary memories.

 

[jnaveen1980]

These are finer details which your average fan is not going to remember.

Stop 100 random cricket fans and ask them if they watched the 2003 WC and what do they remember about the 2003 WC, and the most popular answer will be that Australia won, and the second most popular answer would be Ponting's 140*.

Same exercise for any World Cup and you will see the same pattern. Even today, those who watched the 1992 WC, will remember Pakistan won, and Wasim Akram's 2 consecutive wickets.

Player of the match, player of the series, winning streaks, etc are tertiary memories.

Yea Gilchrist providing a whirlwind will fly under the radar or Damien Martyn's 88 will be forgotten. Where was that Punter in 1996 world cup He played 4 wofld cups. Had an absolute road to bat on and came in when the scored was 105 in 13 overs. He scored in one match. Sorry that is a collective bullying of Australia. Not punter. He hardly had any challenge there.

 

[Technics 1210]

Where will you put ABDV then? He has outstanding world cup record. Should we say Mohinder Amarnath is the GOAT ODI bowler because he only averages 4.00 in world cup final. Especially in winning match. Akram averages 16 same number of wickets.

You know that's not how it works.

Mohinder Amarnath's 1983 WC performance was a one hit wonder, and his bowling average in Tests and bilateral ODIs are abysmal. Consistency is also a criteria for GOAT.

As for ABDV, he is an IPL GOAT contender, not ODI GOAT IMO. As I said, no one cares about a World Cup record unless said said player has won the WC.

Look, my point is this, silverware matters in the GOAT debate, but your opening gambit is an assertion that silverware is a weak criteria in the GOAT debate. Clearly its not.

 

[Technics 1210]

Yea Gilchrist providing a whirlwind will fly under the radar or Damien Martyn's 88 will be forgotten. Where was that Punter in 1996 world cup He played 4 wofld cups. Had an absolute road to bat on and came in when the scored was 105 in 13 overs. He scored in one match. Sorry that is a collective bullying of Australia. Not punter. He hardly had any challenge there.

Ponting played in 5 world cups. 96, 99, 03, 07, 11 - not 4 world cups.

He won 3 out of 5 WC tournaments, 2 of which he captained, and lost only 1 WC game as captain.

You are asking me where Ponting was in 1996? Like that matters after he won 3 WCs.

Retrospection is futile in this case.

 

[sweep_shot]

I would say Ponting and Kohli.

Ponting has won multiple World titles. Kohli was an ODI beast at his peak.

 

[jnaveen1980]

You know that's not how it works.

Mohinder Amarnath's 1983 WC performance was a one hit wonder, and his bowling average in Tests and bilateral ODIs are abysmal. Consistency is also a criteria for GOAT.

As for ABDV, he is an IPL GOAT contender, not ODI GOAT IMO. As I said, no one cares about a World Cup record unless said said player has won the WC.

Look, my point is this, silverware matters in the GOAT debate, but your opening gambit is an assertion that silverware is a weak criteria in the GOAT debate. Clearly its not.

Consistency is 95% silvareware 5%. Especially if you are part of a ATG team that wins 34 world cup matches in a row that should be 0%. You are going to win anyway. What is the big deal there. Australia winning 1987 world cup is a bigger achievement them winning in 1999,2003,2007 because they were underdogs. If you are part of the side and you help them win then your silverware performance can be given weightage. If Punter had played for NZ would he have won any world cup? I doubt so.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Ponting played in 5 world cups. 96, 99, 03, 07, 11 - not 4 world cups.

He won 3 out of 5 WC tournaments, 2 of which he captained, and lost only 1 WC game as captain.

You are asking me where Ponting was in 1996? Like that matters after he won 3 WCs.

Retrospection is futile in this case.

Are we talking about Wimbledon or French open? He won? So Mcgrath who has a total of 12 wickets in world cup semis/finals at 13 avge did nothing? or Warnie who won MOM in semi and final. Team wins. INdividuals don't win. Unless it is an innings like Kapil Dev's 175 you cannot attribute a win to one player.

 

[Technics 1210]

Consistency is 95% silvareware 5%. Especially if you are part of a ATG team that wins 34 world cup matches in a row that should be 0%. You are going to win anyway. What is the big deal there. Australia winning 1987 world cup is a bigger achievement them winning in 1999,2003,2007 because they were underdogs. If you are part of the side and you help them win then your silverware performance can be given weightage. If Punter had played for NZ would he have won any world cup? I doubt so.

Chanderpaul was consistent but his name is never mentioned in ATG let alone GOAT.

95% consistency is a way too high, but even if I grant you this notion, we could list many ODI players based on consistency, but the differential will be silverware, and the performances within when winning said silverware.

As for Ponting playing for NZ, seriously? A hypothetical? Might as well ask what if Kohli played for Pakistan!

 

[Technics 1210]

Are we talking about Wimbledon or French open? He won? So Mcgrath who has a total of 12 wickets in world cup semis/finals at 13 avge did nothing? or Warnie who won MOM in semi and final. Team wins. INdividuals don't win. Unless it is an innings like Kapil Dev's 175 you cannot attribute a win to one player.

What are you on about? How did Tennis get a mention now?

Yeah teams win, but are you now going to riddicule the man of the match award? Ponting's 140* in the 2003 WC final sealed it for Australia.

Also you forget one crucial point, the Captain. The captain is an individual responsibility, and Ponting as captain won the WC in 2003 (without Warne and Bevan) and 2007.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Chanderpaul was consistent but his name is never mentioned in ATG let alone GOAT.

95% consistency is a way too high, but even if I grant you this notion, we could list many ODI players based on consistency, but the differential will be silverware, and the performances within when winning said silverware.

As for Ponting playing for NZ, seriously? A hypothetical? Might as well ask what if Kohli played for Pakistan!

Yes. That is a valid hypothesis. Punter being part of the ATG side was the only reason he holds that many titles. You think he would have been holding that many titles if he had represented even SA who was an equally elite ODI team. For the records Australia won a world cup before Punter (1987), Australia won a world cup even after Punter left (2015), Australia also lost a world cup final with Punter (1996). It is only after Australia became an ATG side in 1999 they started winning world cups. It so happened so many top players represented them. They all played their part. In 2003 when Australia was stuttering against Pakistan, Symonds bailed them out. They struggled against NZ , Bichel bailed them out with bat. In 2003 semi final Australia was struggling in overacst conditions. Once again Symonds bailed them out. So it was not all ponting as you project.

 

[JaDed]

Silverware matters, because hardly anyone remembers (without Google) the accumulated performances in a bilateral ODI series, unless there is a standout statistical achievement, such as SRT's 200*.

Otherwise in ODI, everyone remembers performances in a World Cup or Champions Trophy (without Google).

So Pele and Ronaldo(Brazil) are better than Ronaldo(Portuguese) and Maradona?

 

[Technics 1210]

Yes. That is a valid hypothesis. Punter being part of the ATG side was the only reason he holds that many titles. You think he would have been holding that many titles if he had represented even SA who was an equally elite ODI team. For the records Australia won a world cup before Punter (1987), Australia won a world cup even after Punter left (2015), Australia also lost a world cup final with Punter (1996). It is only after Australia became an ATG side in 1999 they started winning world cups. It so happened so many top players represented them. They all played their part. In 2003 when Australia was stuttering against Pakistan, Symonds bailed them out. They struggled against NZ , Bichel bailed them out with bat. In 2003 semi final Australia was struggling in overacst conditions. Once again Symonds bailed them out. So it was not all ponting as you project.

Where did I say it was all Ponting?

I just said Ponting won 3 WCs, and was captain for the 2 WCs. Played a defining known in the 2003 final. Also why are you avoiding the point of his captaincy in the WC?

For the record, I know Australia won the WC in 87, I know Australia won the WC in 2015, but what is your point here? Are we debating the GOAT ODI team or the GOAT ODI batsman and his achievements?

If you want to talk about being bailed out, then Tendulkar in his 6th WC attempt was bailed out by Gambir and Dhoni in the 2011 WC final, handing Tendulkar the elusive WC win. So we can scrap SRT's WC performances spanning 6 WCs from this GOAT debate - agree?

 

[JaDed]

Pointing Had GOAT Mcgrath with him! it’s not even a fair comparison there..he was litery responsible for 2007 wc

 

[Technics 1210]

So Pele and Ronaldo(Brazil) are better than Ronaldo(Portuguese) and Maradona?

The value of football silverware is no where near the value of Cricket ODI silverware.

Footballers win more silverware for their clubs across many tournaments and leagues, compared to silverware for their country. In cricket ODI there's just the WC and CT silverware.

Totally different dynamics between the 2 sports.

 

[JaDed]

The value of football silverware is no where near the value of Cricket ODI silverware.

Footballers win more silverware for their clubs across many tournaments and leagues, compared to silverware for their country. In cricket ODI there's just the WC and CT silverware.

Totally different dynamics between the 2 sports.

But Footbal WC is the decider for GOAT.. clubs are similar to JAM ODIs

 

[jnaveen1980]

I would say Ponting and Kohli.

Ponting has won multiple World titles. Kohli was an ODI beast at his peak.

350 totals successfully chased 8 times in ODI history

Australia 1
England 2
South Africa 2
India 3

Kohli's scores in those 3 innings 100*(52) vs Aus, 115(66) vs Aus, 122(105) vs England

 

[jnaveen1980]

Where did I say it was all Ponting?

I just said Ponting won 3 WCs, and was captain for the 2 WCs. Played a defining known in the 2003 final. Also why are you avoiding the point of his captaincy in the WC?

For the record, I know Australia won the WC in 87, I know Australia won the WC in 2015, but what is your point here? Are we debating the GOAT ODI team or the GOAT ODI batsman and his achievements?

If you want to talk about being bailed out, then Tendulkar in his 6th WC attempt was bailed out by Gambir and Dhoni in the 2011 WC final, handing Tendulkar the elusive WC win. So we can scrap SRT's WC performances spanning 6 WCs from this GOAT debate - agree?

No he didn' Australia won 3 cups where Punter was part of it. Stop saying X , Y, Z won the world cup. It is not possible. That is why i presented the hypothesis if he had represented NZ. No individual can win a world cup. Period.

 

[Technics 1210]

No he didn' Australia won 3 cups where Punter was part of it. Stop saying X , Y, Z won the world cup. It is not possible. That is why i presented the hypothesis if he had represented NZ. No individual can win a world cup. Period.

Your hypothesis are irrelevant. Lets talk facts and not what ifs.

Ponting did win 3 WCs. This is a fact. You can be pedantic about it, so lets, Ponting was the captain for 2 WC wins, and captaincy is an individual responsibility thus an individual performance - ergo as captain, Ponting lead Australia to 2 WC wins single handedly. Facts do not care about feelings.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Should we say Mcgrath as GOAT in ODI more wickets in world cup knocks out than any one at miserly average. Fantastic career.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Your hypothesis are irrelevant. Lets talk facts and not what ifs.

Ponting did win 3 WCs. This is a fact. You can be pedantic about it, so lets, Ponting was the captain for 2 WC wins, and captaincy is an individual responsibility thus an individual performance - ergo as captain, Ponting lead Australia to 2 WC wins single handedly. Facts do not care about feelings.

Now 3 becomes two. Don't say he singlehandedl won. That is an insult to other contributors. He led an ATG side that would win in auto pilot mode. He didn't really have to anything. I will give you that. He led the side 2 two world cup wins. No different from Dhoni leading India to win two world cups one in T20, one in ODI.

 

[Technics 1210]

The contribution of individuals do make a difference and do lead to wins, if they didn't then MOTM amd MOTS awards would be irrelevant.

Match Winners.

 

[Technics 1210]

Now 3 becomes two. Don't say he singlehandedl won. That is an insult to other contributors. He led an ATG side that would win in auto pilot mode. He didn't really have to anything. I will give you that. He led the side 2 two world cup wins. No different from Dhoni leading India to win two world cups one in T20, one in ODI.

How does 3 become 2? I said at the start of the reply, Ponting won 3 WCs. This will never change. He has 3 WC medals. Fact.

I was being pendantic since you keep going on about how not one individual wins the WC, well, in terms of captaincy it is an individual responsibility, and by this measure Ponting has won 2 WCs individually - single handedly as captain - and 1 WC as a team. But now you go on about auto-pilot?

Okay look, Tendulkar has not won a WC, and neither has Kohli by your logic. If you want to undermine and discredit Ponting's WC acheivements the we can wipe SRT's WC stats along with Kohli's WC stats. We can scrap MOTM and MOTS awards too as wins are all a 'team' effort. Agree?

 

[jnaveen1980]

How does 3 become 2? I said at the start of the reply, Ponting won 3 WCs. This will never change.

I was being pendantic since you keep going on about how not one individual wins the WC, well, in terms of captaincy it is an individual responsibility, and by this measure Ponting has won 2 WCs individually - single handedly as captain - and 1 WC as a team. But now you go on about auto-pilot?

Okay look, Tendulkar has not won a WC, and neither has Kohli by your logic. If you want to undermine and discredit Ponting's WC acheivements the we can wipe SRT's WC stats along with Kohli's WC stats. We can scrap MOTM and MOTS awards too as wins are all a 'team' effort. Agree?

Did i disagree? No. Tendulkar did not win world cup. You need a strong unit to win a world cup. Raina played his part, Gambhir played his part, Dhoni played his part, yuvraj played a major part. Sehaag, Bhajji, Munaf everyone did their part.

 

[Technics 1210]

Did i disagree? No. Tendulkar did not win world cup. You need a strong unit to win a world cup. Raina played his part, Gambhir played his part, Dhoni played his part, yuvraj played a major part. Sehaag, Bhajji, Munaf everyone did their part.

Are you for real?

You are arguing from pedantry.

Tendulkar did indeed win a WC! He was part of a team that won a WC, he contributed to the WC win, but in the end it still goes down as Tendulkar has won a world cup! Same as Dhoni won a World cup, same as Kohli won a world cup!

Even Tendulkar is on record saying he wanted to win the WC - what was he thinking that he would score all the runs? No, that he will end up lifting the WC and say to the world that he has won the world cup.

So are you scraping all WC stats then in the GOAT debate?

You know what I think, I think that 2003 WC loss has effected you real bad, and you are just hating Ponting for the 140*

 

[jnaveen1980]

Richards/Sachin are the two contenders as Kohli himself said. Rest are all not that much. Punter with a meagre career average of 41 and a strike rate of 80 is laughable to be considered as a GOAT. ABDV has a career average of 51 and a strike rate over 100.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Are you for real?

You are arguing from pedantry.

Tendulkar did indeed win a WC! He was part of a team that won a WC, he contributed to the WC win, but in the end it still goes down as Tendulkar has won a world cup! Same as Dhoni won a World cup, same as Kohli won a world cup!

Even Tendulkar is on record saying he wanted to win the WC - what was he thinking that he would score all the runs? No, that he will end up lifting the WC and say to the world that he has won the world cup.

So are you scraping all WC stats then in the GOAT debate?

You know what I think, I think that 2003 WC loss has effected you real bad, and you are just hating Ponting for the 140*

What is pedantic is using a grand total of 240 runs he scored in final out of his 13000 runs to project him as a GOAT. Have you looked at his career stats?

 

[Technics 1210]

What is pedantic is using a grand total of 240 runs he scored in final out of his 13000 runs to project him as a GOAT. Have you looked at his career stats?

Dear oh dear, that's not being pedantic that's sensationalism.

GOAT is not just about WCs, I made this clear in my first post of this thread.

And, WC is not just about the runs scored in the finals either, but if you want to play by this logic, 240 runs scored in WC finals is still a hell of a lot more than 23 runs in world cup finals by Tendulkar. (5 in 2003, and 18 in 2011), and more than Kohli's 35 runs in World cup finals (35 in 2011). Ponting still has scored more than Tendulkar and Kohli combined I World Cup finals. Going by your logic.

If you're GOAT is down to what Kohli says and to AVG and SR, and scrapping silverware performances and stats, then I have nothing more to say to you and I bid you a good night.

PS : Ponting has won 3 World Cups, the most by any ODI player.

 

[jnaveen1980]

PUnter is Australia's GOAT. That has some merit due to volume of runs he scored. Nobody is remotely close to him. Gilly is next with 4000 runs short.

 

[dravidthewall]

Virat Kohli
day light
.
.
.
SRT
VIV
PONTING

 

[sweep_shot]

What is pedantic is using a grand total of 240 runs he scored in final out of his 13000 runs to project him as a GOAT. Have you looked at his career stats?

I feel like you are giving too much weight to runs scored in bilateral ODIs. Those games don't count match.

Netherland's RTD has the best ODI average in history. That doesn't mean much.

Only ICC events should count to determine someone's greatness.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Dear oh dear, that's not being pedantic that's sensationalism.

GOAT is not just about WCs, I made this clear in my first post of this thread.

And, WC is not just about the runs scored in the finals either, but if you want to play by this logic, 240 runs scored in WC finals is still a hell of a lot more than 23 runs in world cup finals by Tendulkar. (5 in 2003, and 18 in 2011), and more than Kohli's 35 runs in World cup finals (35 in 2011). Ponting still has scored more than Tendulkar and Kohli combined I World Cup finals. Going by your logic.

If you're GOAT is down to what Kohli says and to AVG and SR, and scrapping silverware performances and stats, then I have nothing more to say to you and I bid you a good night.

PS : Ponting has won 3 World Cups, the most by any ODI player.

Silverware performances are just a feather in the cap. Your career defines your GOATNess. Being a part of ATG side allowed him to be part of the final albeit against 3 weak finalists. How many had that luxury? This is like Ganguly scoring a 100 in 2003 semi final. Sure against who? Kenya. During that period there was absolutely no side that could match Australia. Others were like minnows as they had an unit that could destroy any opposition from any situation.

Longest no.1 ranked ODI side in history Australia 52 months 2002-2007




So as per your logic Do you agree Mcgrath is the GOAT ODI bowler?

 

[JaDed]

Should we say Mcgrath as GOAT in ODI more wickets in world cup knocks out than any one at miserly average. Fantastic career.

Malcom Marshall, Wasim Akram, Glen Mcgrath all Goats!
Cummins might make it.. Starc could had but career went down drastically eventhough he is the Mos of 2015 one.

 

[JaDed]

Virat Kohli
day light
.
.
.
SRT
VIV
PONTING

lol Virat is daylight from them but the other way.

 

[jnaveen1980]

I feel like you are giving too much weight to runs scored in bilateral ODIs. Those games don't count match.

Netherland's RTD has the best ODI average in history. That doesn't mean much.

Only ICC events should count to determine someone's greatness.

Being part of a great side will automatically give the players who are part of the side a great advantage. Psychologically that is a major advantage if you know you are going to win anyway. RTD scored mostly against minnows. Players we talk about play mostly against regular countries. SL winning a world cup, India winning a world cup, OZ winning a world cup (1987) came against odds unlike West Indies winning in 1975/79 a time when most countries didn't even know how to play a ODI. and Australia winning 3 back to back world cups when they were far superior side to anyone else. So scoring a 240 runs in 4 ODi finals (one where he makes 140).cannot be a criteria to deceide one's greatness. If you play 4 finals you are going to click ine one anyway. Came on a road. You think if Bangladesh plays world cup final shakib won't click in one of them? Richards clicked in one, failed in 2. As a pure batsman i rate ABDV over Punter any day. Neither of them are GOATs.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Malcom Marshall, Wasim Akram, Glen Mcgrath all Goats!
Cummins might make it.. Starc could had but career went down drastically eventhough he is the Mos of 2015 one.

As per the criteria. Mcgrath has the highest world cup knock out wickets (semi/final) much better than Akram. His career average/economy/strike rate all better than Akram. Only a 100 wickets less. What makes others better ODI GOATs? Since we pay a lot of importance to "winning world cup"

 

[Technics 1210]

Silverware performances are just a feather in the cap. Your career defines your GOATNess. Being a part of ATG side allowed him to be part of the final albeit against 3 weak finalists. How many had that luxury? This is like Ganguly scoring a 100 in 2003 semi final. Sure against who? Kenya. During that period there was absolutely no side that could match Australia. Others were like minnows as they had an unit that could destroy any opposition from any situation.

Longest no.1 ranked ODI side in history Australia 52 months 2002-2007




So as per your logic Do you agree Mcgrath is the GOAT ODI bowler?

When you post this stuff do you realise what you are posting and how it undermines your view?

Tendulkar was also part of an ATG Indian side when he won the WC in 2011 playing against a weak SL side in the final who had lost their 2 prime bowlers (Muttiah Muralitharan and Angelo Mathews) on the eve of the final.

Want to scrap Tendulkar's 4 ODI centuries vs Kenya and 1 ODI century vs Namibia too?

All you have acheived so far in this thread is fallicious attempts at discrediting Ponting's ODI legacy by some warped logic of yours, but in the process you have undermined Tendulkar's ODI leagacy using the same logic!

As a result you have been reduced to GOAT ODI bowler debate in a GOAT ODI batsman thread!

 

[dravidthewall]

lol Virat is daylight from them but the other way.

How many of thease below scored while chasing. Kohli is gun in chasing the score, that puts him above all thease, Some of his batting highlights masterclass knock vs peak malinga, chasing 350 score vs australia, 2011 final match when india lost 2 quick wickets for 23 , than steady the ship with gambhir and lay india solid flatform. 46 ODI hundreads in just 257 innings. Kohli is monster against pakistan in worldcup and asia cup. His 183 knock against pakistan chasing 330 plus score in asia cup. Ponting has great support from his team mates, and he never done it while chasing, feast in 2003 worldcup final against india thrundlers, that too flatform laid by adam gilchrist already. Sachin is close to kohli but, apart from his worldcup brilliance, didnt remember he chased any important match, although 350 chase vs austrlia in ODI was his great match but india lost that by some 6 -7 runs. VIV Dominace was 1975,1979 world cup, but he didnt play many ODIs in his career.

 

[MHN1293]

1-viv
2-Kohli(for his unbelievable consistency and many match winning knocks) /ponting(for winning 3 world cups and and preforming well in them)
3- sachin

 

[Technics 1210]

You know, for someone who claims he doesn't care about silverware, Jnaveen1980 has sure spent a lot of time debating on so called 'feathercaps'.

You'd think he would present his case for Tendulkar being a GOAT beyond such feathercaps, but instead he's opted for the - 'Kohli says Tendulkar is a GOAT' - justification.

This proves beyond all doubt, Silverware matters. Nothing else to see here folks.

 

[Technics 1210]

In other news, Ricky Ponting also captained Australia to 2 conservative Champions Trophy wins.

2006 where he had probably had half the 50% ATG, and in 2009 which was not even an ATG team, and Ponting won the Golden Bat award in the 2009 tournament.

GOAT.

 

[jnaveen1980]

When you post this stuff do you realise what you are posting and how it undermines your view?

Tendulkar was also part of an ATG Indian side when he won the WC in 2011 playing against a weak SL side in the final who had lost their 2 prime bowlers (Muttiah Muralitharan and Angelo Mathews) on the eve of the final.

Want to scrap Tendulkar's 4 ODI centuries vs Kenya and 1 ODI century vs Namibia too?

All you have acheived so far in this thread is fallicious attempts at discrediting Ponting's ODI legacy by some warped logic of yours, but in the process you have undermined Tendulkar's ODI leagacy using the same logic!

As a result you have been reduced to GOAT ODI bowler debate in a GOAT ODI batsman thread!

You have to look at the career. I don't look at world cups alone. That is why i don't say Tendulkar is great because he has the highest runs in world cup even excluding minnows. Your career defines greatness. I put Tendulkar in that category mainly because of his longevity of career played through generations against different kind of bowlers, different set of rules. Punter for the large part of his career was just an accumulator at average strike rate. Right about the Australia started becoming dominant in 1999 Punter's record was
91 ODIs 39 average 3400 plus runs strike rate of 71. Tendulkar 8500 runs at a strike rate of 86 avge of 42 around the same time. Punter's rise started after Australia started becoming a dominant ODi side. Guys like Gilchrist, Hayden.. Bevan, Mark Waugh, Hayden, Steve waugh formed a strong unit. He was just a tuk tuker for a long time. Atleast good 6 or 7 years at the start of his career

 

[Technics 1210]

You have to look at the career. I don't look at world cups alone.

Neither do I. I have made this clear drom the onset of this thread.

 

[jnaveen1980]

You know, for someone who claims he doesn't care about silverware, Jnaveen1980 has sure spent a lot of time debating on so called 'feathercaps'.

You'd think he would present his case for Tendulkar being a GOAT beyond such feathercaps, but instead he's opted for the - 'Kohli says Tendulkar is a GOAT' - justification.

This proves beyond all doubt, Silverware matters. Nothing else to see here folks.

That is not a strong argument. your GOAT definition is based on silverware which belonged to a team of individuals. Using that logic only Australians can be GOAT. I am not going to let you go Do you agree Mcgrath is the GOAT ODi bowler. You cannot bring any stat argument. He beats everyone hands down.

 

[Technics 1210]

I feel like you are giving too much weight to runs scored in bilateral ODIs. Those games don't count match.

Netherland's RTD has the best ODI average in history. That doesn't mean much.

Only ICC events should count to determine someone's greatness.

That's nothing, Shahid Afridi has a higher ODI SR (117) and is 6th in the all time list, after that, Kohli is the first GOAT contender with an ODI SR of 93.67

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/records/282919.html

If we go down the AVG/SR route to determin GOAT ODI status, I demand Afridi should be added to the GOAT contender list!

 

[Technics 1210]

That is not a strong argument. your GOAT definition is based on silverware which belonged to a team of individuals. Using that logic only Australians can be GOAT. I am not going to let you go Do you agree Mcgrath is the GOAT ODi bowler. You cannot bring any stat argument. He beats everyone hands down.

You are correct, you saying Tendulkar is a GOAT because Kohli said so, is not a strong argument.

 

[jnaveen1980]

You are correct, you saying Tendulkar is a GOAT because Kohli said so, is not a strong argument.

I said i agree with him. That was my opinion as well. Even Richards is debatable being the best side in the world with all the other teams playing like minnows. Still Richards stood out even among his peers. Greenidge/Haynes developed only later. Definitely a GOAT contender. Then this guy who started his career against Imran/Hadlee/Botham and over a period faced the likes of Akram, Donald, Ambrose, Walsh, Marshall, Waqar, Akhtar, Mcgrath, Warne, Murali, Brett Lee, Saqlain, Steyn, Pollock, Malinga. Handled everything thrown at him. He even had to play out of his skin while his team mates selling matches. A guy who was inspired by him, copied his shots practiced and later went on to become one of the greatest India's test opener. Sehwag. That is the real prize. These silverware, gilverware talk are not the real prize.

 

[jnaveen1980]

You don't think they would not have analyzed this? here you go they have done it. Based on the various metrics Tendulkar tops. Punter thanks to his world cup wins finishes second. Kohli 3rd. Richards 4th.

https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/...-the-greatest-odi-batsman-of-all-time-1224849

 

[Technics 1210]

I said i agree with him. That was my opinion as well. Even Richards is debatable being the best side in the world with all the other teams playing like minnows. Still Richards stood out even among his peers. Greenidge/Haynes developed only later. Definitely a GOAT contender. Then this guy who started his career against Imran/Hadlee/Botham and over a period faced the likes of Akram, Donald, Ambrose, Walsh, Marshall, Waqar, Akhtar, Mcgrath, Warne, Murali, Brett Lee, Saqlain, Steyn, Pollock, Malinga. Handled everything thrown at him. He even had to play out of his skin while his team mates selling matches. A guy who was inspired by him, copied his shots practiced and later went on to become one of the greatest India's test opener. Sehwag. That is the real prize. These silverware, gilverware talk are not the real prize.

The fact you continue to assert that my definition of GOAT is only based on silverware despite me making it clear on my first response in this thread that Silverware, Captaincy and ODI career stats all contribute to GOAT definition tells me I am wasting my time with you.

You can pretend Silverware doesn't count but I bet if Tendulkar won 3 World Cups, and was a successful ODI captain, you would be singing a different tune.

As for Tendulkar facing Marshall who was a fraction of the bowler towards the end of his career is just you name dropping now. Same goes for Imran/Hadlee/Botham. Tendulkar facing twilight bowlers is just sensationalism and exaggeration for effect.

Now if Tendulkar had faced Andy Roberts, Michael Holding, Joel Garner, Malcolm Marshall and Colin Croft at their peak then you may have a point, but then Gavaskar would have something to say about that.

As for Ponting, he just faces a bowling machine in his career - didn't you know?

 

[dravidthewall]

How many of thease below scored while chasing. Kohli is gun in chasing the score, that puts him above all thease, Some of his batting highlights masterclass knock vs peak malinga, chasing 350 score vs australia, 2011 final match when india lost 2 quick wickets for 23 , than steady the ship with gambhir and lay india solid flatform. 46 ODI hundreads in just 257 innings. Kohli is monster against pakistan in worldcup and asia cup. His 183 knock against pakistan chasing 330 plus score in asia cup. Ponting has great support from his team mates, and he never done it while chasing, feast in 2003 worldcup final against india thrundlers, that too flatform laid by adam gilchrist already. Sachin is close to kohli but, apart from his worldcup brilliance, didnt remember he chased any important match, although 350 chase vs austrlia in ODI was his great match but india lost that by some 6 -7 runs. VIV Dominace was 1975,1979 world cup, but he didnt play many ODIs in his career.

Forgot to mention Tendulkar's sharjha desert storm and CB series in Australia