Was it the right decision by New Zealand Cricket to abandon the tour of Pakistan?

[ahsan17]

The word from David White was that the NZ govt had received intel of a specific and credible threat targeted at the team. That’s a pretty big deal, and at that point, no matter how good the security is, it’s hard to keep going forward. Could you imagine if there had been an attempt to harm the players - not even a successful one - and the news had subsequently leaked that the NZC knew about the threat but decided to proceed with the tour anyway? Every single senior official in the NZC would’ve been rightly sacked.

Throw in the fact that one of the players received a death threat before the tour (albeit not a credible one) and that the advice that NZC had originally received from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs was that they shouldn’t tour at all and it’s not hard to see why the NZC reacted as swiftly as they did.

I understand the frustration of Pakistani fans, but a speed bump is better than a car crash. Hopefully things will settle down and the political situation in AfghanisTan will become clearer so that NZ will be able to make up the missed games sometime in the next 12 months.

Nothing new here though It doesn't matter if they can't give the details of this threat. If they can't do that, it is safe to assume either the threat was fake or that it would implicate other countries such as India, so they don't want to share it. Otherwise there's no good reason not to share.

Technically anyone can make up a story or accusation, not give proof, and say we can't give the proof due to confidentiality. It sets a really bad precedent.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

There was no intelligence, if they are not making it public, if they withheld the so called intelligence with utter disregard for Pakistani civilian lives, Pakistani security forces lives, the lives of their fellow Pakistani players then it does not exist period.

I agree that they should have shared the intelligence with Pakistan. Its common decency.

 

[Bahnz]

Nothing new here though It doesn't matter if they can't give the details of this threat. If they can't do that, it is safe to assume either the threat was fake or that it would implicate other countries such as India, so they don't want to share it. Otherwise there's no good reason not to share.

Technically anyone can make up a story or accusation, not give proof, and say we can't give the proof due to confidentiality. It sets a really bad precedent.

This would be fair if this had happened before NZ departed. But NZ clearly wanted this tour to go ahead. They wouldn't have forked out for the expense of flying their players half way around the world, and then incurred the additional expense of chartering a private flight to get their players out of the country asap if they just didn't want to tour and were looking for an excuse to not go through with it. They had that excuse already available to them when the foreign affairs ministry advised against the tour. They wanted this to work, and it clearly has to have taken something really serious for them to call it off. What's more, the NZC wouldn't be in a position to share confidential information from NZ's security bureau. If the PCB wants additional information they need to contact the GCSB rather than the NZC.

 

[street cricketer]

Nothing new here though It doesn't matter if they can't give the details of this threat. If they can't do that, it is safe to assume either the threat was fake or that it would implicate other countries such as India, so they don't want to share it. Otherwise there's no good reason not to share.

Technically anyone can make up a story or accusation, not give proof, and say we can't give the proof due to confidentiality. It sets a really bad precedent.

Ah yes.. Didn't remember the time when India became part of the five eyes and could bully the NZ PM as a country.

 

[ahsan17]

Ah yes.. Didn't remember the time when India became part of the five eyes and could bully the NZ PM as a country.

That's not what I am saying. First, I am not claiming Indian involvement, rather that if theoretically India were involved then 5 eyes might not want to make such information public.

Second, the theoretical Indian involvement could be as simple as calling in a false hoax or if the threat was real then potentially could be behind it.

Again, I am saying possible reasons why 5 eyes might not want to release this information, and Indian involvement is one possibility. The other, more likely possibility is that the intelligence was crap, or that it was made up for political reasons, and in either case they won't release the information.

 

[ahsan17]

This would be fair if this had happened before NZ departed. But NZ clearly wanted this tour to go ahead. They wouldn't have forked out for the expense of flying their players half way around the world, and then incurred the additional expense of chartering a private flight to get their players out of the country asap if they just didn't want to tour and were looking for an excuse to not go through with it. They had that excuse already available to them when the foreign affairs ministry advised against the tour. They wanted this to work, and it clearly has to have taken something really serious for them to call it off. What's more, the NZC wouldn't be in a position to share confidential information from NZ's security bureau. If the PCB wants additional information they need to contact the GCSB rather than the NZC.

Not necessarily. The intelligence may not be initially considered a hoax but after someone digs into it more, who knows. The fact that they rushed it all makes it all the more likely it could be a hoax. Think of all the drone strikes that were done based on 'credible intelligence' that killed innocent civilians.

There's no good reason to not release this intelligence now because we are talking about sporting events, not diplomatic espionage and whatnot.

 

[street cricketer]

That's not what I am saying. First, I am not claiming Indian involvement, rather that if theoretically India were involved then 5 eyes might not want to make such information public.

Second, the theoretical Indian involvement could be as simple as calling in a false hoax or if the threat was real then potentially could be behind it.

Again, I am saying possible reasons why 5 eyes might not want to release this information, and Indian involvement is one possibility. The other, more likely possibility is that the intelligence was crap, or that it was made up for political reasons, and in either case they won't release the information.

Why would the five eyes feed false intelligence from India to New Zealand without verifying it. Wouldn't the NZ PM/security agency know that India and Pakistan have a long running history of enmity between each other and therefore considered any information from India as cynical?

 

[ahsan17]

Why would the five eyes feed false intelligence from India to New Zealand without verifying it. Wouldn't the NZ PM/security agency know that India and Pakistan have a long running history of enmity between each other and therefore considered any information from India as cynical?

Because all this happened in a hurry so who knows how much they verified it. Again, this is the organization that droned hundreds, perhaps thousands of innocent civilians, based on 'credible intelligence', when they actually had more time to verify the intelligence.

 

[Bahnz]

Not necessarily. The intelligence may not be initially considered a hoax but after someone digs into it more, who knows. The fact that they rushed it all makes it all the more likely it could be a hoax. Think of all the drone strikes that were done based on 'credible intelligence' that killed innocent civilians.

There's no good reason to not release this intelligence now because we are talking about sporting events, not diplomatic espionage and whatnot.

There was very little time to make that call though, there was only 12 hours between when the NZC was informed by the government of the threat and the scheduled start of the first game (with officials stating that this was when a potential attack would take place).

Again, with respect to releasing information, that's a call for the GCSB. The intelligence on which the decision was based would be Top Secret, meaning that the NZC legally cannot share the details of it with anyone.

 

[street cricketer]

Because all this happened in a hurry so who knows how much they verified it. Again, this is the organization that droned hundreds, perhaps thousands of innocent civilians, based on 'credible intelligence', when they actually had more time to verify the intelligence.

If India had fed the intelligence, NZ would've said they received intelligence from India rather than the five eyes. Besides, NZ wouldn't have considered the threat seriously if India had fed the intelligence in the first place instead of the five eyes. India aren't a part of the five eyes, so it's a far fetched conspiracy theory to implicate an Indian hand in the operations of the five eyes.

 

[ahsan17]

If India had fed the intelligence, NZ would've said they received intelligence from India rather than the five eyes. Besides, NZ wouldn't have considered the threat seriously if India had fed the intelligence in the first place instead of the five eyes. India aren't a part of the five eyes, so it's a far fetched conspiracy theory to implicate an Indian hand in the operations of the five eyes.

Again, to be clear, I am not claiming India is involved, but rather that's one of many possible reasons why they may not want to reveal the intelligence. But if India were involved, the intelligence may not have necessarily come from Indian intelligence, but rather Indian intelligence generating a fake threat, or even sponsoring a genuine one. Again though, I want to be absolutely clear - there are higher likelihood possibilities that the intelligence was just bad without any Indian involvement.

 

[ahsan17]

There was very little time to make that call though, there was only 12 hours between when the NZC was informed by the government of the threat and the scheduled start of the first game (with officials stating that this was when a potential attack would take place).

Again, with respect to releasing information, that's a call for the GCSB. The intelligence on which the decision was based would be Top Secret, meaning that the NZC legally cannot share the details of it with anyone.

That's my point though - the fact that it all happened so quickly lends it to more likelihood that the intelligence was bad. I mean they spend days and weeks on intelligence for drone attacks and still end up droning the wrong party, despite having more assets on the ground. This has even less chance of being accurate.

 

[Gilly]

That's my point though - the fact that it all happened so quickly lends it to more likelihood that the intelligence was bad. I mean they spend days and weeks on intelligence for drone attacks and still end up droning the wrong party, despite having more assets on the ground. This has even less chance of being accurate.

It wont matter how often you bring up the US military droning the wrong party or tell us how the intelligence was wrong it wont change anything, NZC will take the advice from its own intelligence over everything. NZC will stick by their own just like you will stick by your own, thats how the world works.

 

[Babeikh]

Western intelligence doesn't exactly have an impeccable record so I would personally take much of what they say with a pinch of salt.

The truth is we don't know whether they made the right decision or not because they are refusing to share any details of what this supposed threat was. My thoughts:

If there really was a genuine credible threat then you cannot blame the New Zealanders for wanting to leave and not take any chances. However the way they handled the situation was disgracefully arrogant and just about sums up the level of delusion and false sense of superiority and self importance that exists in the western nations. It sums up exactly why their countries are completely finished and increasingly irrelevant in international geopolitics and why they are going to get absolutely thrashed by East Asia (and China in particular) in the next 20 years. They need to get off their high horse of fake moral superiority.

The reasonable way of dealing with this - as Wasim Khan rightfully said - would have been to share the details of the threat with our government and security agencies. No not the sources - the details of the threat itself - ie. what exactly is going to happen, who do you think is behind this. This would have allowed our agencies to investigate and mitigate. If they still had to leave then fine but we could at least then take action and get these dangerous individuals who clearly have no regard for human life off the streets and away from where they can cause harm.

Frankly New Zealand should hang their heads in shame. If an attack now does take place - God Forbid - they will have blood on their hands.

 

[MenInG]

There was no hiding the relief from New Zealand Cricket (NZC) officials once the Black Caps arrived safely in Dubai following the abandoned tour of Pakistan.

The job is not over yet as NZC works to get the majority of the 34-strong touring party home and into emergency MIQ rooms over the next week or so.

But once the dust settles on the dramatic events of the weekend, there is no question the sport’s national governing body has its work cut out mending fences with their Pakistan counterparts, whose ability to host international cricket was again thrown in doubt.

“As we know they’re a very passionate cricketing nation and they’re obviously disappointed. We understand their disappointment,” NZC chief executive David White said.

“We’ve got a very close working relationship with Pakistan Cricket. We’d like to think that over the next few days, weeks and months that we’ll work through this to ensure that we play the content that we’ve missed out on and we continue our close working relationship.”

White was clear that NZC was left with no choice but to cancel the tour on Friday, just moments before the first one-day international in Rawalpindi, after the New Zealand Government passed on “credible, direct and targeted threats” aimed at the Black Caps.

But Pakistan officials have not been shy in venting their frustration at the abrupt decision, which could have ramifications for upcoming tours scheduled in the country.

The PCB was reportedly awaiting a decision from the England men’s and women’s teams on the fate of their short tours set for next month. The West Indies are also due to play in Pakistan in December followed by Australia in February.

“There’s a lot of pressure created on Pakistan cricket and (especially) Pakistan cricket at home,” PCB chairman Ramiz Raja said in a video message, adding that he plans to raise the issue with the International Cricket Council.

“The fight to survive is the base on which we challenge the whole world. If such a situation is developed (again) when international cricket comes under pressure in Pakistan, we will challenge them once again.”

Making their first tour of Pakistan since 2003, the Black Caps were scheduled to play three ODIs and five Twenty20 internationals.

White was hopeful those matches would be rescheduled, though exactly when that would be was up in the air with the Future Tours Programme already “pretty tight”.

Then there is also the prospect of the PCB wanting to be compensated for lost revenue, which White said would be discussed in due course.

White liked to think NZC’s decision to abandon the tour would not be held against them when the time comes for Pakistan to return to these shores.

As for the prospect of a New Zealand side touring Pakistan again anytime soon, White said it was too early to say.

“I think what’s important to point out is that for every tour we go on, whether it’s Pakistan or England or anywhere, that we go through a very thorough process covering security, etcetera. This was no exception. In fact, it was probably more in this case.

“I can’t answer that question at the moment, it’s too early. But we’ll assess every tour on its merits.”

NZC covered the cost of the squad's charter flight from Islamabad Airport and subsequent stay in Dubai, where they arrived on Sunday morning (NZ time).

Twenty-four members of the 34-strong touring party are expected to come home over the next week or so once flights and MIQ beds are confirmed.

The rest of the group is remaining in the United Arab Emirates to join up with the Black Caps’ T20 World Cup squad, ahead of that tournament commencing on October 17.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/crick...ntinue-after-standing-by-call-to-abandon-tour

 

[ahsan17]

It wont matter how often you bring up the US military droning the wrong party or tell us how the intelligence was wrong it wont change anything, NZC will take the advice from its own intelligence over everything. NZC will stick by their own just like you will stick by your own, thats how the world works.

That's obvious - I am not even making that argument. Yes each country's government will trust their own intelligence over others. This is between individuals on a forum not affiliated with the government making arguments over the credibility of the intelligence. If someone wants to believe that 5 eyes intelligence agencies are credible, I have no qualms about them believing that. And they should have no qualms over me showing that these intelligence agencies lack credibility with actual proof.

 

[Gilly]

That's obvious - I am not even making that argument. Yes each country's government will trust their own intelligence over others. This is between individuals on a forum not affiliated with the government making arguments over the credibility of the intelligence. If someone wants to believe that 5 eyes intelligence agencies are credible, I have no qualms about them believing that. And they should have no qualms over me showing that these intelligence agencies lack credibility with actual proof.

You have no proof.

 

[ahsan17]

You have no proof.

That's where drone strikes and the Iraq war come in. Now I know you are a right wing Aussie so that might not be enough for you, therefore I have no interest in proving it to you.

 

[Mamoon]

It is not our place to decide whether it was the right decision or not. New Zealand will do what it has to do to protect its players.

The impact that it has on Pakistan cricket is not their concern.

We need to overcome our delusions - the cricket world owes us nothing, and no one is morally / ethically / legally obliged to tour Pakistan.

 

[Gilly]

That's where drone strikes and the Iraq war come in. Now I know you are a right wing Aussie so that might not be enough for you, therefore I have no interest in proving it to you.

If you can show me proof that NZC received bad intelligence then but you cant so we have nothing to discuss then.

 

[ahsan17]

If you can show me proof that NZC received bad intelligence then but you cant so we have nothing to discuss then.

If you can show me proof that it was genuine then perhaps we can talk, otherwise there's nothing to discuss.

See, it can be done both ways with people who are not acting in good faith like yourself.

 

[gani999]

Ok, coming from a proud person of Indian origin here..
Was it the right decision by NZC to abandon the tour? A big NO. The New Zealand government has acted in a very knee-jeeking and immature way.
NZ knew that Pakistan was unsafe, but they still decided to tour. They must have sent their security experts earlier and checked everything out. They also must have worked closely with the Pak authorities to ensure an airtight security bubble was in place. They even sent their players. It just looks very fishy that a ' new threat' , that none of the so-called experts could predict, emerged just on the morning of the match.
Even if there was a new threat', they could have just increased security, played the game without spectators, etc. Something could have been worked out. It was completely unnecessary to cancel the tour.
If I was a Pakistani, I too would be royally ******.

Terrorism is a problem in many cricketing nations. If NZ continues to behave like this, some countries may become wary if inviting them.

 

[MenInG]

Darren Sammy in an interview:

"If field experts are saying that Pakistan is safe, then one should trust them."

"I have been coming to Pakistan for the last 6 years, it has always been a good experience,"