Was Ricky Ponting as great as his statistics showed?

[Harsh Thakor]

If statistics at the peak period of batting career in test cricket and contribution in matches won is the criteria then Ricky Ponting is the best after Bradman.In his peak period he has statistically overhauled Tendulkar and Lara or even Viv Richards..The only factor against Ponting is that he never had to play against what was arguably the best team of all time and could thrive on weaker bowling attacks unlike Lara and Tendulkar.He also averaged much more at home than overseas. Infact for the best one down batsman title after Bradman Ponting statistically overshadows Sir Viv Richards.Ofcourse Ponting did not have to tackle the likes of Lillee and Thomson or like Greg Chappell have to tackle the great West Indian quicks. However he did decimate the likes of Wasim or Ambrose.Ultimately stats can never tell the real story and without doubt Lara and Tendulkar displayed higher skill against the quality attacks.Ponting may have been as agressive but still not as complete as Tendulkar or as talented as Brian.He has not equalled Lara's best efforts in test matches and series or Tendulkar's longevity or mastery in the most difficult conditions.It just illustrates how little statistics really depicts the true picture.Neverthless I wish to project Ricky Ponting's remarkable statistics.I still feel for pure match-winning he could have overshadowed Tendulkar but not Brian Lara.Sadly Ponting lost his form towards the end unlike Brian while Sachin's great comeback from 2009 to 2011 put him again at the top of the pedestal.

Ricky did not equal Brian or Sachin against spin bowling not equal their mastery on bad tracks.A lot of his runs came against the weaker West Indian attacks of recent times.I would have loved to have seen Ponting bat in the eras of Border and Greg Chappell, particulary against the great Carribean pace quartet.With his great reflexes and mastery of the pull shot he could have outclassed Border and Greg Chappell against pure pace.Overall In lists of 100 best cricketers writers like Cristopher Martin Jenkins unfairly Ponting is not rated amongst the top 45.In Jenkin's analysis even Gooch is ahead.In contrast Ananth Narayan's analyis places Ponting only behind Bradman,Lara and Sachin and ahead of Viv Richards and Jack Hobbs.Cricket ultimately is also about flair ,artistry and impact and in that regard Jack Hobbs and Viv Richards or even Walter Hammond and George Headley were ahead.However I don't think Ponting is 20 places behind Lara and 36 behind Sachin as ranked by the writers of the 1oo greatest cricketers.Overall to me Ponting would rank just in the final best 12 batsman of all time inches below Sunil Gavaskar and Greg Chappell.As a cricketer he would rank about on par with Wasim Akram.

Ricky Ponting's Test career
Period Tests Runs Average 100s/ 50s
Till Dec 1998 22 1209 36.63 2/ 7
Jan 1999 to Dec 2006 87 8114 65.43 31/ 29
Jan 2007 onwards 58 4043 40.83 8/ 26
Career 167 13,366 52.21 41/ 62
The golden years
During that eight-year period between 1999 and 2006, Ponting averaged 50 or more against all opposition except Sri Lanka, against whom he averaged 47.09 in seven Tests. He was especially unstoppable at home, averaging 73.76 from 47 Tests. He wasn't quite as prolific overseas, but still averaged an outstanding 56.55 in40 matches. The only blot during that period - as indeed over his entire career - was his record in India: inseven Test innings there, he scored 40 runs at 5.71; over his entire career, he averaged 26.48 in Tests in India, with one century in 25 innings. Harbhajan Singh was his tormentor on most of those occasions, getting him out ten times, the most occasions any bowler dismissed him. He averaged more than 40 in all other countries in which he played more than one Test.
Highest Test averages between Jan 1999 and Dec 2006 (Qual: 3000 runs)
Batsman Tests Runs Average 100s/ 50s
Ricky Ponting 87 8114 65.43 31/ 29
Jacques Kallis 81 7053 62.41 22/ 35
Rahul Dravid 82 7265 59.54 21/ 31
Mohammad Yousuf 66 5954 58.37 22/ 22
Inzamam-ul-Haq 65 5455 56.23 19/ 24
Matthew Hayden 81 7422 55.80 26/ 27
Sachin Tendulkar 71 5837 55.06 18/ 23
Brian Lara 74 7212 54.63 24/ 23
Steve Waugh 58 3818 52.30 15/ 11
Gary Kirsten 53 4197 51.18 14/ 17
One of the best at No. 3
Through most of the 17 years Ponting played international cricket, he owned the No. 3 spot. In all international cricket, he scored 22,869 runs from that position, which is easily the highest; the second-best is Sangakkara's 16,324. Ponting's 61 international hundreds at that position is 25 more than the next-best.
Breaking up those numbers format-wise, Ponting missed out on 10,000 Test runs at No. 3 by only 96, and though he currently has the most Test hundreds, Sangakkara is only three behind and will probably overhaul that mark pretty soon.
In ODIs, Ponting is easily the most prolific No. 3 batsman with 12,662 runs, almost 5000 more than the next-best (Kallis' 7759). His 29 ODI hundreds at No. 3 is more than twice that of any other batsman at that position (Kallis has 13).
Highest run-getters in Tests at No. 3
Batsman Innings Runs Average 100s/ 50s
Rahul Dravid 219 10,524 52.88 28/ 50
Ricky Ponting 196 9904 56.27 32/ 43
Kumar Sangakkara 169 9222 59.11 29/ 37
Don Bradman 56 5078 103.63 20/ 10
Hashim Amla 95 4734 55.04 16/ 22
Richie Richardson 107 4711 47.11 14/ 21
Rohan Kanhai 90 4689 52.68 13/ 20
David Boon 111 4412 45.48 13/ 20

won match 1995-2012 108 178 24 9157 257 59.46 15240 60.08 30 42 8 1026 53
lost match 1996-2012 31 62 0 2036 242 32.83 3581 56.85 4 12 8 248 12
drawn match 1997-2012 29 47 5 2185 157* 52.02 3961 55.16 7 8 1 235 8

Top Test batsmen since November 2001 to 2007
Batsman Tests Runs Average 100s/ 50s
Ricky Ponting 62 6501 71.43 25/ 22
Mohammad Yousuf 42 4318 66.43 16/ 15
Jacques Kallis 54 5001 62.51 15/ 27
Rahul Dravid 58 5128 61.78 14/ 25
Brian Lara 51 5420 60.89 19/ 15

 

[Varun]

Very poor record in India, giving Warne company. Still a great though.

 

[amax]

he is below the league of viv, tendu lara etc imo, nonetheless a great batsman.

 

[Executioner]

He is a great no doubt. Its not only about stats.

Anyone who actually watched him play would rate him among the best. His cover drive, square drive and pull shot were all superb.

 

[Aman]

He's the best batsmen I've seen.

 

[Haroon786]

Nice article.

 

[Robert]

No, he was not as good as Richards, SRT and Lara, but he was the best murderer of the second-rate bowling of the period 2002-2008, and deserves credit for that.

 

[khalil1986]

No, he was not as good as Richards, SRT and Lara, but he was the best murderer of the second-rate bowling of the period 2002-2008, and deserves credit for that.

A bitter Pom, better than any batsman 'England' have ever produced.

 

[Energetic]

At least Ponting doesn't score a fifth of his 100s against teams like Zimbabwe, Bangladesh, Kenya, Namibia etc. Him and Lara are 2 of the best modern batsman to date who also don't play 4 records either.

 

[khalil1986]

At least Ponting doesn't score a fifth of his 100s against teams like Zimbabwe, Bangladesh, Kenya, Namibia etc. Him and Lara are 2 of the best modern batsman to date who also don't play 4 records either.

Lara doesn't play for records? Haha heard it all now.

 

[OZGOD]

He was a mongrel and had a lot of heart

 

[Sakss]

His percentage and performance in victories was big

I did an analysis here a few days back
http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showthread.php?t=185848

 

[Hitman]

Lara doesn't play for records? Haha heard it all now.

Was thinking the same. Here's Ridley Jacobs, Lara's former team mate -

http://www.espncricinfo.com/westindies/content/story/208591.html

 

[W63L35]

Was Ricky Ponting as great as his statistics showed?

No he was not..... but if he had stayed on and on for 33 more tests ..... then he would have been as great as his stats.

 

[Hitman]

A bitter Pom, better than any batsman 'England' have ever produced.

Really? Better than the great Jack Hobbs? What about Len Hutton and Wally Hammond?

 

[Gunther]

These threads are annoying and sure as hell bound to get one Mr. Bonferroni very angry.

 

[Hitman]

This is the problem with some sour loser fans .... can't appreciate Ponting or Lara without putting Sachin down. I'm an Indian and Ponting has always been one of my favorite batsman.

 

[cricketindiafan]

No 1 test side for close to 10 years, 3 WCs, 2 CTs, - try finding a better cricket resume. He was collosal from early 2000s to 2007-08, perhaps the strongest peak a batsman has ever had. (Bradman not included obviously)

 

[Hitman]

No 1 test side for close to 10 years, 3 WCs, 2 CTs, - try finding a better cricket resume. He was collosal from early 2000s to 2007-08, perhaps the strongest peak a batsman has ever had. (Bradman not included obviously)

With due respect, that's the performance of his team (possibly the strongest ever in history) of which he was an integral part of. By no means it can be credited to him alone as a batsman. Sachin or Lara playing for such a side would have enjoyed such a resume as well. He was a champion batsman though.

 

[soso_killer]

I've been a critic of Ricky especialy towards the twilight of his career. But having said that he was a top player and deserves his stats. Yeah sure you could argue its easy playing your shots when surrounded by world class players. But he did his job

 

[ghalib]

Like Godwin's law, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law), there has to be another - any thread on Pakpassion analyzing any batsman will end up debating Sachin's greatness or lack of it after 10 posts or so...

 

[Inherent Ignorance]

Was Ricky Ponting as great as his statistics showed?

No.

He was better than what his statistics showed.

 

[Inherent Ignorance]

Additional post.

Please note that the statistics show what really happened in his career. This is indisputable.

However, talent and the match situation in which the runs were scored cannot be shown by basic statistics alone. You will need highly advanced statistics to display such characteristics. However, I am not sure if such statistics are readily available to the public.

I apologise for the double post. However, I consider it necessary.

 

[Bhaijaan]

No 1 test side for close to 10 years, 3 WCs, 2 CTs, - try finding a better cricket resume. He was collosal from early 2000s to 2007-08, perhaps the strongest peak a batsman has ever had. (Bradman not included obviously)

Bradly Hogg probably was also part of 70% of those achievements. He is better than Richard Hadlee? No WCs and #1 test ranks to show.

Dont judge players by their team achievements but by what they do in the situations they get to play in.

 

[Robert]

A bitter Pom, better than any batsman 'England' have ever produced.

Firstly, I am offended by your use of the word 'Pom'.

Secondly, your statement is nonsensical. The one Australian who was clearly better than any England batter before or since is Sir Donald Bradman.

 

[Robert]

Really? Better than the great Jack Hobbs? What about Len Hutton and Wally Hammond?

I doubt that he has heard of those people.

 

[amax]

.As a cricketer he would rank about on par with Wasim Akram.

Do not agree with this, Wasim was rarest breed in cricket; Genuine fast left armer. On cricketing abilities(completeness as bowler, peer appreciation, impact on game etc) alone he is one of the very best .

 

[PakPrince]

He is in the same league as Tendulkar and Lara bit a a slightly higher level than both of them

 

[Gilly]

Only supporters that have limited and childish views could deny that Ponting is a cricketing great.

New Delhi, Jan 14: Australian skipper Ricky Ponting beat Master Blaster Sachin Tendulkar, legends Shane Warne, Jacques Kallis, Glenn McGrath, Adam Gilchrist and many others to be voted as the ESPN Cricinfo Player of the Decade for the 2000s.

A jury comprising of 38 former and current players, commentators and cricket writers voted Ponting as the best by a vast majority.

Ponting got 60 points, while Kallis was voted the second best with 37 points and Gilchrist came third with 29 points. Muralitharan (27), McGrath (24), Tendulkar (23) and Warne (20) followed them in the list.

Brian Lara, Rahul Dravid and Shivnarine Chanderpaul were also in the competition, but could not manage enough votes.

Ponting was the player of the decade for his ability to dominate bowlers all across the world for such a long time, Cricinfo quoted Daniel Vettori, New Zealand captain who was part of the jury, as saying.

When informed about the award, Ponting said: It's a great thrill to be recognised in that way. I have played in an era where there's been a lot of great players. Some of the leading run-scorers of all time have played in my time and a lot of the leading wicket-takers of all time have played in my time as well. When you stack that up, to be recognised as the leading player in the decade against some of those other guys makes it a little bit more special.

 

[Cricfan4eva]

Ponting is a great, I don't think anyone denies that. Easily the best bat during 2002-08 period but he did suffer a bit against quality bowling which puts him slightly below the likes of Lara/Tendulkar. At his best though he was far more lethal than those 2. Also never shied away from big stages.. 2003 World cup ton, 2 tons in 100th test, the list could go on...

 

[Kshah]

Ponting was good, a legend but a bit over rated to. His batting declined when all the super stars left which meant when the whole batting line up depended on him his batting form deserted him because he couldn't handle the extra pressure.

Sent from my SGH-T999V using Tapatalk 4

 

[tempus123]

He is in the same league as Tendulkar and Lara bit a a slightly higher level than both of them

Yes sure...

 

[tempus123]

Ponting is a great, I don't think anyone denies that. Easily the best bat during 2002-08 period but he did suffer a bit against quality bowling which puts him slightly below the likes of Lara/Tendulkar. At his best though he was far more lethal than those 2. Also never shied away from big stages.. 2003 World cup ton, 2 tons in 100th test, the list could go on...

Sorry, but how can 2 hundreds in his own 100th Test be a big stage ? I agree with WC final hundred though, however the platform was built by Gilly. When Ponting came to bat, Indian bowling was already on mat and had kind of given up, such was the assault of Gilly on them.

 

[tempus123]

Do not agree with this, Wasim was rarest breed in cricket; Genuine fast left armer. On cricketing abilities(completeness as bowler, peer appreciation, impact on game etc) alone he is one of the very best .

A totally illogical argument to put a batsman in the comparison with a bowler.. but comparing Ponting with Wasim is not fair at all even then.

Wasim did make one of the 3 spots available for fast bowlers in cricinfo's world XI (along with bowlers like Lillee/Marshall) , Ponting didn't even make the Australian XI. Not that cricinfo is be-all in everything, just an angle.

Wasim had kind of an overall great record almost everywhere in the globe, we all know Ponting's legendary struggle against Indian spinners in India.

 

[OZGOD]

My opinion is in this thread from a couple of years ago but I will repost it:

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showthread.php?t=57028&highlight=ponting+cheap+runs

Originally Posted by OZGOD

Originally Posted by rauled
How badly was Ponting exposed by a tall bowler ( in Ishant) who could get good bounce of the pitch ? Mcgrath and Warne would have given Ponting a nightmare had they played for different teams . Ponting for the little he has played in tests against Ambrose and Donald at their peak ...was totally exposed against them.

Care to mention some world beating bowlers that he has scored against at their peak ?

Go to www.cricinfo.com. Tell me who he scored his 2nd and 3rd Test tons against (actually I'll tell you, it was Donald, Pollock, Klusener, Walsh, Ambrose, back in 1997 when they were still at or near their best). Then tell me who he scored his 197 in 1999 against (it was Akram, Akhtar, Saqlain, etc). Then tell me who he scored his 105* in SL against (it was Murali, Vaas, Zoysa etc).

His 125 and 141* against India don't count as it was against the likes of Srinath, Prasad and the other trundlers in your team at the time - obviously by your logic these pie flingers wouldn't even make a district team in OZ so let's pretend those tons never existed. Plus a crap player like Justin Langer who only scores on placid tracks (even though he was raised in Western Australia and played all his domestic cricket at the WACA) scored 223 so Ponting's tons during that series were meaningless - surely he should have scored 500 against such a mediocre attack (by your definition).

We should also forget Ponting's 141 against Pakistan in 2002 as it was scored against such crap (compared to MIGHTY AND TALL ISHANT who extracted venomous bounce and averaged a MIGHTY 60 with the ball during the OZ tour but troubled Ponting for one over hence his greatness) bowlers such as Akhtar, Waqar and Saqlain in their pomp. In that vein, his 242 and 257 in 2003 should be discounted, since he scored them against such pie chuckers as Zaheer, Pathan, Nehra et al.

What about his 207 against Pakistan in 2004? It was only scored against Akhtar, Asif, Kaneria et al, none of who are better than the MIGHTY AND TALL ISHANT who extracted venomous bounce and who averaged a MIGHTY 60 with the ball during the OZ tour but troubled Ponting for one over hence his greatness. So let's forget that double ton as well.

What about when he scored 156 against the Pom four prong during the Ashes in 2005 (when Flingtoff, Jones, Harmison, Hoggard in their pomp reversing the ball - but even then none were as good as the MIGHTY AND TALL ISHANT who extracted venomous bounce and averaged a MIGHTY 60 with the ball during the OZ tour but troubled Ponting for one over hence his greatness) and saved a draw for OZ when they were staring a defeat? Forget that - all that rubbish about England having the best bowling attack in the world in 2005 was just that, rubbish - the Poms are crap and no better than the Zims. What about his 120 and 143 against SA in the same match in 2006? It was only Kallis, Nel and Pollock, forget them, they were old and past it by 2006. In that same note, let's also forget his 103 and 116 against SA in SA later that year as it was only against the #2 Test team at the time and obviously as mentioned before Ntini, Pollock, Nel et al were rubbish (especially compared to the MIGHTY AND TALL ISHANT who extracted venomous bounce and averaged a MIGHTY 60 with the ball during the OZ tour but troubled Ponting for one over hence his greatness) and SA fluked getting to the #2 spot.

Even looking at a few of Ponting's Test tons, it's obvious he's scored them on featherbeds against rubbish bowlers. Since he was unable to score a ton against the MIGHTY AND TALL ISHANT who extracted venomous bounce and and averaged a MIGHTY 60 with the ball during the OZ tour but troubled Ponting for one over hence his greatness, none of the tons are meaningful and hence can be defined as cheap runs. Rauled definitely knows his stuff! When's Cricinfo signing him up as an analyst?

 

[tempus123]

Only supporters that have limited and childish views could deny that Ponting is a cricketing great.

I have a point to make regarding Murali here for the decade in question :

His overall record is 800 wickets with average of 22.72..

in the decade of 2000 (1 Jan 2000 to 10th July 2010), his record is 573 wickets with average of 21.01.

We call Murali one of the best ever bowler and when his record "improved" in the second decade, why he still is so far below in votes for the particular decade ? Is there any bias against him ?

 

[Gilly]

I have a point to make regarding Murali here for the decade in question :

His overall record is 800 wickets with average of 22.72..

in the decade of 2000 (1 Jan 2000 to 10th July 2010), his record is 573 wickets with average of 21.01.

We call Murali one of the best ever bowler and when his record "improved" in the second decade, why he still is so far below in votes for the particular decade ? Is there any bias against him ?

It is interesting when you look at it.

From 1st Jan 2000 to 31st Dec 2009 Murali only took 164 wickets away from Sri Lanka, of those 164 43 were against Bang and Zim leaving 121 wickets @ 28 against the top nations over 10 years, or 12.1 wickets per year.

Edit:
Sorry that should be 121 wickets @ 30.9 against the top nations away from home in ten years.

Don't know if that had anything to do with it.

 

[amax]

A totally illogical argument to put a batsman in the comparison with a bowler.. but comparing Ponting with Wasim is not fair at all even then.

Wasim did make one of the 3 spots available for fast bowlers in cricinfo's world XI (along with bowlers like Lillee/Marshall) , Ponting didn't even make the Australian XI. Not that cricinfo is be-all in everything, just an angle.

Wasim had kind of an overall great record almost everywhere in the globe, we all know Ponting's legendary struggle against Indian spinners in India.

Agreed , there is a no algorithm in the world that can map a bowlers stats to a batsman.

 

[tempus123]

It is interesting when you look at it.

From 1st Jan 2000 to 31st Dec 2009 Murali only took 164 wickets away from Sri Lanka, of those 164 43 were against Bang and Zim leaving 121 wickets @ 28 against the top nations over 10 years, or 12.1 wickets per year.

Edit:
Sorry that should be 121 wickets @ 30.9 against the top nations away from home in ten years.

Don't know if that had anything to do with it.

For the period of 1st Jan 2000 to 31st Dec 2009, he took 565 wickets in total, out of which 201 wickets were away.

His record in this period against top teams (bracket shows away record against those teams)

Australia : 37 wickets at average of 32 (9 wickets at 62)
India : 69 wickets at 28 (25 at 44)
-----------------------------------------------

Eng : 91 wickets at 20.37 (32 at 21.93)
SA : 72 wickets at 21.59 (19 at 26.89)
Pak : 58 wickets at 23.51 (35 at 23.94)
NZ : 43 wickets at 19.36 (17 at 12.76)
WI : 62 wickets at 21.20 (21 at 28.76)

As can be seen he failed only in Australia and India away in this period. He was successful against ALL teams overall (home + away inclusive).

Can you please let me know if I missed anything in stats here ? It doesn't seem to match with your observation. Let me know if I got the stats wrong here.

Here is the link of my stats query :

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...n;spanval2=span;template=results;type=bowling

 

[Gilly]

For the period of 1st Jan 2000 to 31st Dec 2009, he took 565 wickets in total, out of which 201 wickets were away.

His record in this period against top teams (bracket shows away record against those teams)

Australia : 37 wickets at average of 32 (9 wickets at 62)
India : 69 wickets at 28 (25 at 44)
-----------------------------------------------

Eng : 91 wickets at 20.37 (32 at 21.93)
SA : 72 wickets at 21.59 (19 at 26.89)
Pak : 58 wickets at 23.51 (35 at 23.94)
NZ : 43 wickets at 19.36 (17 at 12.76)
WI : 62 wickets at 21.20 (21 at 28.76)

As can be seen he failed only in Australia and India away in this period. He was successful against ALL teams overall (home + away inclusive).

Can you please let me know if I missed anything in stats here ? It doesn't seem to match with your observation. Let me know if I got the stats wrong here.

Here is the link of my stats query :

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...n;spanval2=span;template=results;type=bowling

Checked my stats and they were from end of 2001, my bad.

Still not a big impact away from home, I'm not even sure if that's why he didn't poll so well in the player of the decade. I do know that Ponting got most of his votes from the Indian players and commentators.

Most of the players considered Ponting as the player that was the biggest danger when playing Australia. I would have thought it would be McGrath but I guess there would be nothing worse than Ponting when he was hitting the ball, absolutely murderous.

Vettori summed it up best when he said "Ponting was the player of the decade for his ability to dominate bowlers all across the world for such a long time"

 

[tempus123]

Checked my stats and they were from end of 2001, my bad.

Still not a big impact away from home, I'm not even sure if that's why he didn't poll so well in the player of the decade. I do know that Ponting got most of his votes from the Indian players and commentators.

Most of the players considered Ponting as the player that was the biggest danger when playing Australia. I would have thought it would be McGrath but I guess there would be nothing worse than Ponting when he was hitting the ball, absolutely murderous.

Vettori summed it up best when he said "Ponting was the player of the decade for his ability to dominate bowlers all across the world for such a long time"

Hmm.. a few examples come to mind for relative comparison of McGrath/Warne/Ponting.. India's record definitely improved in Australia when McGrath didn't play. I think Ponting played all Test series of Border Gavaskar trphy in the decade of 2000s.. and India managed a better share of those matches. When McGrath was around, India couldn't win much against Australia. Tendulkar rated McGrath as the best he had faced, anyway it's one great's opinion.

Eng also won in 2005 when McGrath wasn't playing (he played in Lords and was the chief tormentor of Eng).

It will be interesting to see and compare Ponting's away record with Murali's away record.

Ponting against top teams average away for the same period :

India : 21.85
Eng : 41
NZ : 98 (perhaps explains Vettori the jury's opinion)
SA : 65
SL : 33
WI : 84.

You can see he murdered NZ/SA/WI but wasn't anything special against Ind/SL/Eng.. he didn't perhaps play in Pakistan. Very good peak against NZ with a very low record against India. He was very good overall with average of 51 in this period too, but can't agree with Vettori that he dominated bowlers "all across the world". In fact against India, if you leave the last leg of this decade (2009) in the 2 tours he averaged 3.40 and 11.50 (although 1 Test only), his improved average of 21.8 came in the last tour of his where he averaged 38 and was still troubled by Ishant Sharma and Bhajji.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...0;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting

 

[James]

A bitter Pom, better than any batsman 'England' have ever produced.

Poor comment.

Ponting is an ATG btw.

 

[Gilly]

You can see he murdered NZ/SA/WI but wasn't anything special against Ind/SL/Eng.. he didn't perhaps play in Pakistan. Very good peak against NZ with a very low record against India. He was very good overall with average of 51 in this period too, but can't agree with Vettori that he dominated bowlers "all across the world". In fact against India, if you leave the last leg of this decade (2009) in the 2 tours he averaged 3.40 and 11.50 (although 1 Test only), his improved average of 21.8 came in the last tour of his where he averaged 38 and was still troubled by Ishant Sharma and Bhajji.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...0;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting

Indian fans were unlucky not to see the best of Ponting, his first tour he was sick and should not have played at all and his second tour he had a broken finger.

Just on the bit about Vettori, he was only one of 38 jurors and collectively they overwhelmingly voted Ponting player of the decade.

13 jurors placed Ponting at number 1, six at number 2 and 9 at number 3.

 

[tempus123]

Indian fans were unlucky not to see the best of Ponting, his first tour he was sick and should not have played at all and his second tour he had a broken finger.

ohh.. poor Indians.

He toured India 6 times overall. Following is tour wise average of his :

1996 : 13.50
1998 : 21
2001 : 3.40
2004 : 11.50
2008 : 38
2010 : 56.

His average improved in last 2 tours when Kumble/Bhajji were on decline and the last tour was played on Mohali and Bangalore which aren't exactly rank turners, but still the overall average remained 26.

 

[Gilly]

ohh.. poor Indians.

He toured India 6 times overall. Following is tour wise average of his :

1996 : 13.50
1998 : 21
2001 : 3.40
2004 : 11.50
2008 : 38
2010 : 56.

His average improved in last 2 tours when Kumble/Bhajji were on decline and the last tour was played on Mohali and Bangalore which aren't exactly rank turners, but still the overall average remained 26.

But he scored 1700 plus runs with 5 hundreds @ 40 in the ODI's in India. Injuries and illness cost him in test matches but he showed his class.

 

[tempus123]

But he scored 1700 plus runs with 5 hundreds @ 40 in the ODI's in India. Injuries and illness cost him in test matches but he showed his class.

Gilly, we usually compare Test records for players.. so if you want to highlight ODI records of his in India (which are not a real Test against spin anyway in Indian flat tracks).. you are free to make your own conclusions. I will leave this debate here.

 

[Gilly]

Gilly, we usually compare Test records for players.. so if you want to highlight ODI records of his in India (which are not a real Test against spin anyway in Indian flat tracks).. you are free to make your own conclusions. I will leave this debate here.

The thread is about Ponting, Ponting plays ODI cricket. I'm not debating you, I'm just giving you information. I didn't vote Ponting the player of the decade so if you want to debate that you need to contact the jurors who voted for him.

I will leave you with this quote,
"Tony Cozier, commentator and journalist, said many people didn't realise just how impressive Ponting's numbers were. "Mark Twain might have been right when he said there are lies, damn lies and statistics but even he couldn't argue with Ponting's amazing numbers."

 

[tempus123]

The thread is about Ponting, Ponting plays ODI cricket. I'm not debating you, I'm just giving you information. I didn't vote Ponting the player of the decade so if you want to debate that you need to contact the jurors who voted for him.

I will leave you with this quote,
"Tony Cozier, commentator and journalist, said many people didn't realise just how impressive Ponting's numbers were. "Mark Twain might have been right when he said there are lies, damn lies and statistics but even he couldn't argue with Ponting's amazing numbers."

I think I will question Vettori's comment, and I already have in this thread, I think he was swayed by Ponting's record against NZ in NZ, though I am not sure. What did he actually mean by "dominated bowlers all across the world" when against Eng/Ind/SL he didn't have an impressive record (in this period) away.

No doubt, Ponting is a very good player of ODIs in India too.. but when you raised Murali's away average, I assumed you meant Test matches only. I think it's reasonable if we apply the same yardstick to judge both Ponting and Murali.

Murali averages 12 in NZ in that period so I will balance it with Ponting's 98..

 

[Gilly]

I think I will question Vettori's comment, and I already have in this thread, I think he was swayed by Ponting's record against NZ in NZ, though I am not sure. What did he actually mean by "dominated bowlers all across the world" when against Eng/Ind/SL he didn't have an impressive record (in this period) away.

No doubt, Ponting is a very good player of ODIs in India too.. but when you raised Murali's away average, I assumed you meant Test matches only. I think it's reasonable if we apply the same yardstick to judge both Ponting and Murali.

Murali averages 12 in NZ in that period so I will balance it with Ponting's 98..

Re-read the thread, someone asked me about Murali not getting many votes in the player of the decade. I replied that it could have something to do with his away record, I was not comparing him with Ponting.

I wasn't judging Mural ( I was asked a question about Murali and I gave an answer)i and if you take the time to read things the player of the decade is judged on tests and ODI's and overall impact on the game.

 

[tempus123]

Re-read the thread, someone asked me about Murali not getting many votes in the player of the decade. I replied that it could have something to do with his away record, I was not comparing him with Ponting.

I wasn't judging Mural ( I was asked a question about Murali and I gave an answer)i and if you take the time to read things the player of the decade is judged on tests and ODI's and overall impact on the game.

I was the one who asked you about Murali

 

[Gilly]

I was the one who asked you about Murali

OK then read my reply, I wasn't comparing him to Ponting.

If you don't think Ponting should have been player of the decade that is fine, remember 25 of the jurors didn't think so either. The thread is about if Ponting is as great as his statistics suggest, I think he is, you think not, all is fine.

 

[tempus123]

OK then read my reply, I wasn't comparing him to Ponting.

If you don't think Ponting should have been player of the decade that is fine, remember 25 of the jurors didn't think so either. The thread is about if Ponting is as great as his statistics suggest, I think he is, you think not, all is fine.

Sorry, I didn't say Ponting wasn't eligible or right choice for player of the decade.. he surely was. Record against one team (India) doesn't dilute other achievements.

Let me clear, my point was only about why Murali is rated so low with votes, you said his away record against top teams could be one reason .. then the debate moved to all this.

 

[amax]

5 top test bats of this generation( in that order).

Lara (best test batsman post IVA Richards)
Tendulker
S Waugh
Kallis
Ponting(closest to viv at peak but faced somewhat low quality fast bowling)

 

[tempus123]

4 top test bats of this generation( in that order).

Lara (best test batsman post IVA Richards)
Tendulker
Kallis
Ponting(closest to viv at peak but faced somewhat low quality fast bowling)

I would make a case for Steve Waugh too.. if you consider he peaked after 1990 and hence after Viv. His battles against Ambrose were legendary. I like Waugh also because of his record in India in tough spinning tracks of Delhi/Kolkata etc. but that's only local view.

 

[amax]

I would make a case for Steve Waugh too.. if you consider he peaked after 1990 and hence after Viv. His battles against Ambrose were legendary. I like Waugh also because of his record in India in tough spinning tracks of Delhi/Kolkata etc. but that's only local view.

missed him, he has survived some of the most fiery spells of fast bowling, I will rate him above Kallis and Ponting behind Lara, Tendu purely as a batsman. ( I have changed my list)

 

[tempus123]

missed him, he has survived some of the most fiery spells of fast bowling, I will rate him above Kallis and Ponting behind Lara, Tendu purely as a batsman. ( I have changed my list)

I think his survival in Delhi Test against Kumble and an unofficial hundred on powdering surface in CWG games against Kumble in ODI shows his skill against spin too. Kumble was very dangerous on such surfaces, almost unplayable.

 

[amax]

I think his survival in Delhi Test against Kumble and an unofficial hundred on powdering surface in CWG games against Kumble in ODI shows his skill against spin too. Kumble was very dangerous on such surfaces, almost unplayable.

he has played many gritty knocks, his 98 against wasim and waqar in Rawalpindi was a typical example of his resilience, Rashid latif rate this spell from Wasim as the fastest he kept to, Wasim was reported for intimidation after the match.

 

[tempus123]

he has played many gritty knocks, his 98 against wasim and waqar in Rawalpindi was a typical example of his resilience, Rashid latif rate this spell from Wasim as the fastest he kept to, Wasim was reported for intimidation after the match.

Ha ha ha.. intimidation ? By whom ? Waugh said this about Waqar and Wasim :

"They both liked to verbal the batsmen by frequent abuse, and had the capacity and skill to back it up with bowl too. I used to laugh in the match referee's room when Pakistani duo pretended they didn't know English at all and can't speak it let alone abuse anyone in English , when I later learnt both were given commentary jobs after their retirements"

 

[amax]

Ha ha ha.. intimidation ? By whom ? Waugh said this about Waqar and Wasim :

"They both liked to verbal the batsmen by frequent abuse, and had the capacity and skill to back it up with bowl too. I used to laugh in the match referee's room when Pakistani duo pretended they didn't know English at all and can't speak it let alone abuse anyone in English , when I later learnt both were given commentary jobs after their retirements"

I heard Rashid Latif saying in an interview that wasim was called by match referee for Intimidatory bowling to Waugh, I think waugh reported it to match refree.

 

[tempus123]

I heard Rashid Latif saying in an interview that wasim was called by match referee for Intimidatory bowling to Waugh, I think waugh reported it to match refree.

Yes, let me make it clear, Waugh had nothing but regard for Wasim, if my post indicated otherwise, I am sorry. He had regard for all Pakistanis except Salim Malik, and to an extent Latif who called him a match fixer. But he gave credit to Latif for raising the issue also against his own teammen.

 

[amax]

Yes, let me make it clear, Waugh had nothing but regard for Wasim, if my post indicated otherwise, I am sorry. He had regard for all Pakistanis except Salim Malik, and to an extent Latif who called him a match fixer. But he gave credit to Latif for raising the issue also against his own teammen.

no prob, it was an interesting information about 2 ws

 

[AlizeeFan]

Average, great, average

 

[Justcrazy]

Pointing was one of the best , But Lara and Tendulkar better than him. Everyone should agree.

 

[MenInG]

Australian legend Ricky Ponting – who boasts one of the world's best cricket minds – is back with the Hobart Hurricanes, signing on as Head of Strategy.

Ponting, who played eight matches for the Hurricanes in the first two editions of the BBL, has inked a three-year deal with the men's program that will see him identify candidates for the vacant head coach position.

The former Test captain has coached Delhi Capitals in the Indian Premier League for the past five seasons and his in-depth analysis of the game is evident throughout his commentary during Test matches and the KFC BBL as part of the Channel 7 team across the Australia's summer of cricket.

The 47-year-old has also previously held interim and specialist coaching roles with the Australian men’s cricket team.

https://www.cricket.com.au/news/ric...egy-bbl-big-bash-vacant-head-coach/2022-06-09

 

[Mobashir]

He is even better than what is overall statistics showed.
In ODI's he was good everywhere with both averages and SR. Did well on big occasions.
In tests, apart from poor performances in India and a career ending that was very bad he was phenomenal.
I don't buy that he was bad against spin even though his test record isn't good in India. He was not the best but a very good player of spin bowling.

 

[jeetu]

He was one of the best batsman of his time. He was overshadowed by Tendulkar and Lara who were more well rounded batsman.

However he was sitting duck when ball was really spinning.
Comparison of Ricky Ponting inning in Asia from 1-2 inning against 3-4 inning

[table=class: grid, align: center]
[tr][td] 1-2 inning [/td][td]Span [/td][td]Mat [/td][td]Inns [/td][td]NO [/td][td]Runs [/td][td]Ave [/td][td]SR [/td][td]100 [/td][td]50 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]in Bangladesh [/td][td]2006-2006 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]73 [/td][td]36.5 [/td][td]57.93 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]1 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]in India [/td][td]1996-2010 [/td][td]14 [/td][td]14 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]512 [/td][td]36.57 [/td][td]50.24 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]4 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]in Pakistan [/td][td]1998-1998 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]76 [/td][td]- [/td][td]51.7 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]1 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]in Sri Lanka [/td][td]1999-2011 [/td][td]9 [/td][td]9 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]558 [/td][td]69.75 [/td][td]64.28 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]2 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]in U.A.E. [/td][td]2002-2002 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]194 [/td][td]97 [/td][td]58.61 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] 3-4 inning [/td][td]Span [/td][td]Mat [/td][td]Inns [/td][td]NO [/td][td]Runs [/td][td]Ave [/td][td]SR [/td][td]100 [/td][td]50 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]in Bangladesh [/td][td]2006-2006 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]118 [/td][td]- [/td][td]46.64 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]in India [/td][td]1996-2010 [/td][td]14 [/td][td]11 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]150 [/td][td]13.63 [/td][td]55.76 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]1 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]in Pakistan [/td][td]1998-1998 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]43 [/td][td]43 [/td][td]48.86 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]in Sri Lanka [/td][td]1999-2011 [/td][td]7 [/td][td]7 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]165 [/td][td]23.57 [/td][td]43.19 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]1 [/td][/tr]
[/table]

 

[Ab Fan]

Great in a strong team but average in a weak team and didn't do that well vs spin too. I will have Kallis and Sangakkara over him as Kallis will give me a fifth bowling option and Sanga can keep gloves too.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

I think he is a Tier 1 great of that era.

Tier 1 - Ponting, Lara
Tier 2 - Kallis, Sanga
Tier 3 - Tendulkar, Dravid

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Lara was nowhere near as good against high quality genuine pace as Ponting or even SRT. Doesnt have a single ton against sides that had Wasim, Waqar, Shoaib, Donald and didnt have to face his own bowlers -Walsh, Ambrose, Bishop- either.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Lara was nowhere near as good against high quality genuine pace as Ponting or even SRT. Doesnt have a single ton against sides that had Wasim, Waqar, Shoaib, Donald and didnt have to face his own bowlers -Walsh, Ambrose, Bishop- either.

I dont think Wasim and Waqar rate Tendulkar over Lara. Don't think Shoaib does either - he mentioned Tendus knees shaking not Lara's.

Will take their word when it comes to a comparison between those players and ability v pace.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

I dont think Wasim and Waqar rate Tendulkar over Lara. Don't think Shoaib does either - he mentioned Tendus knees shaking not Lara's.

Will take their word when it comes to a comparison between those players and ability v pace.

Tendulkar wasnt the one who looked like he died while playing an Akhtar bouncer. Refer CT 04 . But sure . Feel free to take their word though.

 

[NishanKonar]

Ricky Ponting was like Virat Kohli. Had an insane peak ( 2003-07 ) when he was head and shoulders above everyone. But outside those peak years , he was not that great

Lacked the longevity of Lara or Sachin !

 

[TheSultan]

Ricky Ponting was like Virat Kohli. Had an insane peak ( 2003-07 ) when he was head and shoulders above everyone. But outside those peak years , he was not that great

Lacked the longevity of Lara or Sachin !

I’d rather have a better 3-4 year peak than longevity. But regardless I don’t think he beats Lara for peak anyway.

 

[Bewal Express]

He was certainly a better player of fast bowling then either Lara or Tendulkar. Lara started to struggle against the real top pacers when he started to jump back and across rather than just go just back and across. Tendulkar got hit on the head by 85mph like Anderson and although he was good, he never looked comfortable against the real quick guys

 

[TheSultan]

He was certainly a better player of fast bowling then either Lara or Tendulkar. Lara started to struggle against the real top pacers when he started to jump back and across rather than just go just back and across. Tendulkar got hit on the head by 85mph like Anderson and although he was good, he never looked comfortable against the real quick guys

Yes I believe Lara had some eyesight issues from around 2003 onwards - either eyesight or maybe just age and reflexes as we saw with the Younis Khan and his flamingo technique in 2016.

Ponting’s pull shot also deteriorated towards the end of his career too. He got hit a couple of times and would get out to the pull a lot more. But yes, at the top of his game he made fast bowling look pedestrian at times, some of those pulls he had his weight on his front foot which was remarkable

But like all great players - all 3 Ponting, Lara and Younis would defy all the naysayers and produce some quality innings after their troubles too

 

[James]

Ponting at his peak is possibly the best player that I have seen.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Tendulkar wasnt the one who looked like he died while playing an Akhtar bouncer. Refer CT 04 . But sure . Feel free to take their word though.

Shoaib said Tendulkar never scared him ( rather he said he made Tendulkars head legs shake) but said Gilchrist and Lara scared him more.

If you guys are referring to how Tendulkar was better at playing place than Lara based on your observations, then I think its only fair to take into account the opinions of the best pace bowlers.

Tendus like the guy who quietly sits in your town centre and bangs out paintings that you stick to your fridge wall or throw in the bin eventually.

Lara and Ponting are Picasso in comparison.

 

[Bewal Express]

Shoaib said Tendulkar never scared him ( rather he said he made Tendulkars head legs shake) but said Gilchrist and Lara scared him more.

If you guys are referring to how Tendulkar was better at playing place than Lara based on your observations, then I think its only fair to take into account the opinions of the best pace bowlers.

Tendus like the guy who quietly sits in your town centre and bangs out paintings that you stick to your fridge wall or throw in the bin eventually.

Lara and Ponting are Picasso in comparison.

I think Shoaib Actor was being disrespectful towards Tendulkar. I never felt Tendulkar shirked a challenge and I saw pretty much all of his innings, however he was late against the short ball on occasions, but that's a technical issue, not one of courage

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Like alot of other people here, Ponting at his peak was the best batter in the world for me. The only one who comes close is Dravid.

But if we're being honest, Ponting after 2007 was not a particularly great player. He regressed significantly and the side regressed under his captaincy aswell.

But Ponting in that 2003-06 was incredible to watch. The most brutal player against short-bowling and an absolute beast of a cricketer.

 

[Ab Fan]

Another thing with Ponting was that he cashed a lot on flat pattas which was given in 2000s very prominently. He was able to hit big hundreds on those wickets vs largely the fast bowlers who were in their last legs with the pace being down and he was able to cash in big against them.