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Was the Muslim rule over the Indian subcontinent, the best thing ever to occur to this region?

The Muslim rule over the Indian subcontinent was the best thing ever to occur for the region

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daytrader said:
You say that but the cultural influence of the Mughals is evident in Indian society. It in only now that it's being opposed
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Not at all. Only now we are learning from the mughal culture and doing what mughals would do. We are inspired from all the muslim rulers and their single minded devotion for their religion.
 
CricketCartoons said:
This is a myth. They tied up with upper castes. Even the sufis ignored the dalits. I am sure you cannot give any numbers (not your fault), but can you give even few examples of muslims marrying dalit origin muslims? Otherwise even provide some text of those times where they showed even some sympathy for dalits.

All hindus irrespective of their castes were infidels for them.

Dehlavi, writing in Tafhimat-e-Ilahiyya says: Oh Kings! Mala'a'la' urges you to draw your swords and not put them back in their sheaths again until Allah has separated the Muslims from the polytheists and the rebellious Kafirs and the sinners are made absolutely feeble and helpless.

These are just samples. I can provide tons of authentic text right from the primary sources. I challenge you to provide even one paragraph where any muslim king or any scholar/poet during the muslim rule talked about giving respect to dalits.
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It's not a myth, the loathsome breast tax was a reality.

As for your other points, the proof is in the numbers. India has the 3rd largest Muslim population in the World.

Don't really want to get into the spread of Islam in the sub continent but as you like to read, please research the role of Sufi Saints and Islamic missionaries. They spread the Islamic word and converted lower castes as the Islamic principles of equality and justice were very appealing. Not everything was done by the sword
 
CricketCartoons said:
Just dont tell a lowly sub human hindu infidel like me that they are my heritage.
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Statpadder Inc said:
If only they could follow these ideals in the present times and show respect to non Muslims, shias and minorities
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Look bros, clearly this is an emotional topic for you guys and I apologize sincerely if I hurt any sentiments. That was not the intention.

This thread is turning into a point scoring match and defeats the purpose. No more from my side as I was just having fun, don't want to hurt any more feelings.

As one of my favourite Indian songs go

Holi khele Rangveera Avadh mei, Holi khele Rangveera
 
daytrader said:
It's not a myth, the loathsome breast tax was a reality.

As for your other points, the proof is in the numbers. India has the 3rd largest Muslim population in the World.

Don't really want to get into the spread of Islam in the sub continent but as you like to read, please research the role of Sufi Saints and Islamic missionaries. They spread the Islamic word and converted lower castes as the Islamic principles of equality and justice were very appealing. Not everything was done by the sword
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I meant it is a myth that muslim invaders emancipated dalits. Most of the conversions were from upper caste and OBC. Dalits remained untouched.

Show me any text from contemporary historian of the muslim rule that they cared about dalits. I can give you tons of text from primary sources that they saw hindus, irrespective of caste, as infidels.

This is a later day invention by some muslims to attribute virtues to the invaders, so that they can continue to take pride in them. Not supported by any contemporary text.

Even Syed Ahmed Khan, the so called modernist muslim intellectual, hated that lower castes would be ruling. It is all in his speeches.

I don't want your opinion and imagination. I want text from contemporary historians or any primary source to support your opinion.
 
daytrader said:
Look bros, clearly this is an emotional topic for you guys and I apologize sincerely if I hurt any sentiments. That was not the intention.

This thread is turning into a point scoring match and defeats the purpose. No more from my side as I was just having fun, don't want to hurt any more feelings.

As one of my favourite Indian songs go

Holi khele Rangveera Avadh mei, Holi khele Rangveera
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Nothing to apologize. You are a soldier for your religion. I also see myself as a soldier for my religion, and soldiers respect soldiers and understand why they are doing what they are doing.
 
daytrader said:
You say that but the cultural influence of the Mughals is evident in Indian society. It in only now that it's being opposed
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Cultural influence and oppression can occur at the same time. They are not mutually exclusive.
 
CricketCartoons said:
Nothing to apologize. You are a soldier for your religion. I also see myself as a soldier for my religion, and soldiers respect soldiers and understand why they are doing what they are doing.
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Lol no boss I'm no soldier and also not overtly religious. My knowledge is not even 10% of the real soldiers of my deen (the Hufaaz and Ulemah). We are keyboard warriors at best
 
The people who has voted 'Yes' in favour of barbaic Islamic invasion in India are mostly people living abroad who probably takes part in human right protest for people in Palestine & Kashmir in western world. Hilarious.

As I said before, if hypocrisy has a face many people will be seeing theirs if they look into the mirror.
 
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daytrader said:
Lol no boss I'm no soldier and also not overtly religious. My knowledge is not even 10% of the real soldiers of my deen (the Hufaaz and Ulemah). We are keyboard warriors at best
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Do good deeds properly, sincerely and moderately and know that your deeds will not make you enter Paradise, and that the most beloved deed to Allah is the most regular and constant even if it were little. (Sahih al Bukhari)

Every effort, no matter how small, counts.
 
daytrader said:
Look bros, clearly this is an emotional topic for you guys and I apologize sincerely if I hurt any sentiments. That was not the intention.

This thread is turning into a point scoring match and defeats the purpose. No more from my side as I was just having fun, don't want to hurt any more feelings.

As one of my favourite Indian songs go

Holi khele Rangveera Avadh mei, Holi khele Rangveera
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It's not about being emotional, we had a good debate because we both feel passionately about it.

It's nothing, good to hear another perspective.
 
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Atleast no one can blame Muslims for the caste system in India, Instead they mitigated it and as a result many Hindus who were considered as low rank indians embraced Islam afterward.
 
Romali_rotti said:
One thing is for sure, muslim rule has not turned out well for current day Pakistan....
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It was not the Muslim rule that turned bad for Pakistan, it is the reality that Pakistan (that came into existence in the Name of ISLAM) and its citizens including each and every individual has forgot the real teachings of ISLAM.
 
Itachi said:
From "best thing ever....." to this.

You made quite a jump. That's a U turn bigger than IK lol.
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Hahha... May be its a jump for you but i am not ceding any ground yet, this post was for those who earlier claimed that majority of low classed Hindus rejected any influence of Islam and Muslim rule.
 
Rajdeep said:
I am planning to go to the next 'From River to the Sea, Palestine will be fee' march in central London. All those misinformed white Corbyn supporters who are dancing in this Fee Fee Palestine tune every weekend along with our Bradford friends thiking it is for the humanitarian cause, I just want to inform them that what do they know. The same guys who does 'Fee Fee Palestine' supported by Mayor of London actually supports barbaric Islamic rulers in India who plundered, raped, killed millions of hindus , invaded their land, destroyed their places of worship and converted them. Humanitarian cause is the biggest topi drama in all these.

#FeeFee
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Why would they be Corbyn supporters and what makes you think they are misinformed? Are ordinary educated people unable to speak out against cruel oppression and murder and rape against unarmed helpless people?

Does Muslims supporting Muslims who are being subjected to a Genocide hurt you? Does the Mayor of Londons Religion cause you pain and suffering?

Your posts follow a very predictable, common theme. Any reason for your intense islamophobia? Have you been bullied in your home town?

By the way, it’s : From the River to Sea, Palestine will be Free. Not sure where you got fee fee from. If your being charged a fee to attend these rallies then please stay home and dont go. You wont be missed or wanted there.
 
Without doubt, the Muslim rule and incursions into South Asia was the best thing to happen. Because of these incursions and rule, more than half a billion people today embrace God’s religion, and Muslims contributed to the growth of the arts and architecture which continue to endure to this day. As some other members have stated, they haven’t invested much in science or technology and they bickered and fought among themselves - which ultimately led to the British overpowering them and ending the golden period of the subcontinent.
 
Having seen the nasty rulers of some of the muslim countries in recent years, I now find it hard to believe anything good being said of the past. Obviously whatever happened during muslim rule in the sub-continent is also driven by what the historians say, and those historians were on the payroll of those rulers…
 
The majority of Muslim rulers in India were never vindictive against the Indians but were harsh on the uprising groups but unfortunately the current muslim population in India is paying the price of the past actions of muslim rulers and that is certainly appalling in a so called "secular" country.
 
The Bald Eagle said:
The majority of Muslim rulers in India were never vindictive against the Indians but were harsh on the uprising groups but unfortunately the current muslim population in India is paying the price of the past actions of muslim rulers and that is certainly appalling in a so called "secular" country.
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Not true again, Sikhs have actually documented against all the issues they went through.
Mughals beheaded the 9th sikh Guru do you realise how cruel that is considering Sikhs only have 10 gurus?
Worst was he was beheaded for protecting Pandits.
 
JaDed said:
Not true again, Sikhs have actually documented against all the issues they went through.
Mughals beheaded the 9th sikh Guru do you realise how cruel that is considering Sikhs only have 10 gurus?
Worst was he was beheaded for protecting Pandits.
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Even worst is ,Sikh guru's family was killed by putting them in the walls alive

He was asked to perform a miracle to prove his nearness to God or convert to Islam.The Guru declined, and three of his colleagues, who had been arrested with him, were tortured to death in front of him: Bhai Mati Das was sawn into pieces, Bhai Dayal Das was thrown into a cauldron of boiling water, and Bhai Sati Das was burned alive.
 
JaDed said:
Not true again, Sikhs have actually documented against all the issues they went through.
Mughals beheaded the 9th sikh Guru do you realise how cruel that is considering Sikhs only have 10 gurus?
Worst was he was beheaded for protecting Pandits.
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The conflict with sikhs started in Jahanghir's time when Guru Arjun was killed and that too for showing support and blessings to Jahanghir's elder rebelled son Khousrau. After that it was all about the vendetta and exacting revenge that lead to bloody skirmishes between both communities and ultimately resulted in Sikh rule in 1820 onwards in Punjab.

I am not justifying their crime but just stating there was a political reason behind this animosity.
 
The Bald Eagle said:
The conflict with sikhs started in Jahanghir's time when Guru Arjun was killed and that too for showing support and blessings to Jahanghir's elder rebelled son Khousrau.
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According to Jahangir's autobiography Tuzk-e-Jahangiri (Jahangirnama) which discussed Arjan's support for his rebellious son Khusrau, too many people were becoming persuaded by Arjan's teachings and if Arjan did not become a Muslim, the Sikh Panth had to be extinguished
 
The Bald Eagle said:
The majority of Muslim rulers in India were never vindictive against the Indians but were harsh on the uprising groups but unfortunately the current muslim population in India is paying the price of the past actions of muslim rulers and that is certainly appalling in a so called "secular" country.
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Bro, quoting your post from Palestine bloodshed thread

The Bald Eagle said:
Occupiers never persist for ever, Just look at the fate of Soviets and USA in vietnam. Israel will soon meet the same fate and would perish from the face of the earth.
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In one thread you are saying Occupiers never persists and here are glorifying Islamic rulers who occupied Indian land and killed/converted millions.

Are you still unable to see the hypocrisy?
 
JaDed said:
Not true again, Sikhs have actually documented against all the issues they went through.
Mughals beheaded the 9th sikh Guru do you realise how cruel that is considering Sikhs only have 10 gurus?
Worst was he was beheaded for protecting Pandits.
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Why only Guru Tegh Bahadur ji?

Guru Arjan Dev ji was also killed by Mughals.

Guru Gobind Singh ji was also assasinated on the orders of Mughals.
 
Rajdeep said:
Bro, quoting your post from Palestine bloodshed thread



In one thread you are saying Occupiers never persists and here are glorifying Islamic rulers who occupied Indian land and killed/converted millions.

Are you still unable to see the hypocrisy?
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I could just laugh at your comment.

My life would become too easier if you are a student of political science. Before 1649,there was no concept of nation state and the concept of legitimate government ie (a government chosen by the people) came even later as coined by John Locke.

So whoever ruled a region before ruled it for themselves ie their dynasties and the welfare of the people was the secondary goal. So at that time there was no such thing as Occupiers if we go by that definition then even till this date the Occupiers rule England ie the Anglosaxons. So before the medieval age it was the empires era no nation state so you can't equate the Palestinian situation with the above one.
 
The Bald Eagle said:
I could just laugh at your comment.

My life would become too easier if you are a student of political science. Before 1649,there was no concept of nation state and the concept of legitimate government ie (a government chosen by the people) came even later as coined by John Locke.

So whoever ruled a region before ruled it for themselves ie their dynasties and the welfare of the people was the secondary goal. So at that time there was no such thing as Occupiers if we go by that definition then even till this date the Occupiers rule England ie the Anglosaxons. So before the medieval age it was the empires era no nation state so you can't equate the Palestinian situation with the above one.
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The question is why are you glorifying them in 2024? Who cares what happened before 1649...If you are yourself aware that these dynasties didnt care about the welfare of the people, you should be condemning it rather than opening thread here to glorify them. We all know the history and one need not be a political student for it. Islamic invasion of Indian subcontinent was a cruel chapter in history. Whether it was a norm in that era or not is a different discussion but the fact is they were barbaric invaders. You support them and call them a glorious chapter in Indian history but shed crocodile tears for Palestine is a baffling hypocrisy.
 
The Bald Eagle said:
I could just laugh at your comment.

My life would become too easier if you are a student of political science. Before 1649,there was no concept of nation state and the concept of legitimate government ie (a government chosen by the people) came even later as coined by John Locke.

So whoever ruled a region before ruled it for themselves ie their dynasties and the welfare of the people was the secondary goal. So at that time there was no such thing as Occupiers if we go by that definition then even till this date the Occupiers rule England ie the Anglosaxons. So before the medieval age it was the empires era no nation state so you can't equate the Palestinian situation with the above one.
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Nation state or not. Invasion is invasion. Human suffering is human suffering. You cant use different yardstick as per your liking.
 
IndoorCricket said:
Nation state or not. Invasion is invasion. Human suffering is human suffering. You cant use different yardstick as per your liking.
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Exactly my point. How conveniently people using the date excuse and be like look it was the norm back then, so its okay to justify the barbarism today and call it a glorious empire. Immediately then go to the other thread and condemn about the barbarism happening in Palestine and question why the world is silent. Pffff :ROFLMAO:
 
Rajdeep said:
Exactly my point. How conveniently people using the date excuse and be like look it was the norm back then, so its okay to justify the barbarism today and call it a glorious empire. Immediately then go to the other thread and condemn about the barbarism happening in Palestine and question why the world is silent. Pffff :ROFLMAO:
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When Muslims did it in the past, it was glorious. When others do it to Muslims today, it’s inhumanic.
 
Rajdeep said:
Exactly my point. How conveniently people using the date excuse and be like look it was the norm back then, so its okay to justify the barbarism today and call it a glorious empire. Immediately then go to the other thread and condemn about the barbarism happening in Palestine and question why the world is silent. Pffff :ROFLMAO:
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But you are not comparing like to like. Mughal rule was at a time where Indians themselves were barbaric, they practised caste discrimination and widow burning, not to mention wars against other kings of the region.

Why are you comparing Mughal period to modern day Israel? Israel should be compared to contemporary nations of today to get some context of their place in the world.
 
Rajdeep said:
India is 5th largest economy now and where is Pakistan? Where this Kashmir obsession took them?
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If anybody wants to know about baffling hypocrisy then he needs to read your above comment from another thread.

At one place you and other indian posters say occupation is a occupation, invasion is invasion but then you glorify Indian occupation and persecution of Kashmiris. You, yourself, have partly acknowledged it to be norm back then. So if I am living in past by making this thread in 2024 then Mr enlightened bro why are you glorifying Indian occupation of Kashmir.

I know you will beat around the bush but not answer my question directly.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
But you are not comparing like to like. Mughal rule was at a time where Indians themselves were barbaric, they practised caste discrimination and widow burning, not to mention wars against other kings of the region.

Why are you comparing Mughal period to modern day Israel? Israel should be compared to contemporary nations of today to get some context of their place in the world.
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Spot on bro, also many poor so called "low caste" Hindus embraced Islam because of this discrimination and archaic caste system
 
The Bald Eagle said:
If anybody wants to know about baffling hypocrisy then he needs to read your above comment from another thread.

At one place you and other indian posters say occupation is a occupation, invasion is invasion but then you glorify Indian occupation and persecution of Kashmiris. You, yourself, have partly acknowledged it to be norm back then. So if I am living in past by making this thread in 2024 then Mr enlightened bro why are you glorifying Indian occupation of Kashmir.

I know you will beat around the bush but not answer my question directly.
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Bro, are you sure you are a student of political science? Which university brother? :ROFLMAO:

India did not go and invade Kashmir. The land that is present day J&K always belonged to India. However the people living there didn't wanted to stay with Hindu majority India and demanded a separation. India has all the right to protect its land and respond to any violent secessionist movement.

Islamic rulers invaded the land that is present day India, they were foreign powers came from middle east, looted and plundered, converted or killed millions of people, broken their places of worship etc etc. This is a completely different thing and has no relevance with Kashmir at all. Just like Islamic rulers were foreign powers invaded someone else's land, Israel also did the same in Palestine. However, you are praising Islamic invasion of India as glorious chapter just bcoz those invaders follow the same religion as you but accusing Israel for doing the same. This is hypocrisy...if you are still not able to get it then you are either ignorant or simply trolling. Its okay to sometime accept their own mistake...that don't make them smaller man.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
But you are not comparing like to like. Mughal rule was at a time where Indians themselves were barbaric, they practised caste discrimination and widow burning, not to mention wars against other kings of the region.
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So just bcoz a country or a group of people were backward and practised caste discrimination it gave the right for foreign power to become barbaric towards them? It gives the right invade that land, exploit them, convert or kill millions, break their religious temples etc.?

There are many evil practices in Islam as well. So that justify the invasion of Israel?
Cpt. Rishwat said:
Why are you comparing Mughal period to modern day Israel? Israel should be compared to contemporary nations of today to get some context of their place in the world.
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That is to draw the parallel that both were barbaric invasions. OP shedding crocodile tears for Israel but opens a thread praising glorious Islamic rule is a hypocrisy in my eyes. This contemporary world theory doesn't fly as we are praising barbaric Islamic rulers today even after knowing the barbarism they exposed.
 
Rajdeep said:
India did not go and invade Kashmir. The land that is present day J&K always belonged to India. However the people living there didn't wanted to stay with Hindu majority India and demanded a separation. India has all the right to protect its land and respond to any violent secessionist movement.
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Lol.. Clapping for someone who hails from the "biggest democratic" country in the world and thinks it right of a country to suppress people just because they don't want to be part of it.

No offence bro, but this is what you call hypocrisy personified.
 
Rajdeep said:
So just bcoz a country or a group of people were backward and practised caste discrimination it gave the right for foreign power to become barbaric towards them? It gives the right invade that land, exploit them, convert or kill millions, break their religious temples etc.?

There are many evil practices in Islam as well. So that justify the invasion of Israel?


That is to draw the parallel that both were barbaric invasions. OP shedding crocodile tears for Israel but opens a thread praising glorious Islamic rule is a hypocrisy in my eyes. This contemporary world theory doesn't fly as we are praising barbaric Islamic rulers today even after knowing the barbarism they exposed.
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They weren't barbaric by standards of the time though, that is the point I was making and which has gone completely over your head. If you want to compare with Romans, or Mongols fair enough, but you are comparing with Israel which is a modern nation of the 21st century.

You are justifying modern nations genocide by comparing to what happened centuries ago. If you want to compare genocides would be more honest to compare Israeli genocide to Nazi Germany ethnic cleansing of the Jews.
 
The Bald Eagle said:
Lol.. Clapping for someone who hails from the "biggest democratic" country in the world and thinks it right of a country to suppress people just because they don't want to be part of it.

No offence bro, but this is what you call hypocrisy personified.
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Again, how is that an invasion and what is its relevance to the Mughal rule? If anything, the issue of present day Kashmir also somehow related to those glorious periods known as Islamic invasion. Someone was saying yesterday in another thread that very soon Indian muslims will revolt again and will demand a different country. Assuming he is correct, do you think India should break its country again and accept the demand? No...it doesn't work like that. And if someone resort to violence in the name of secessionist movement, they will be treated accordingly. However this is a completely different discussion to invading foreign lands. Sy comparison of Islamic rulers & Palestine issue is fair, you are simply clutching the straws bringing Kashmir.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
They weren't barbaric by standards of the time though, that is the point I was making and which has gone completely over your head. If you want to compare with Romans, or Mongols fair enough, but you are comparing with Israel which is a modern nation of the 21st century.

You are justifying modern nations genocide by comparing to what happened centuries ago. If you want to compare genocides would be more honest to compare Israeli genocide to Nazi Germany ethnic cleansing of the Jews.
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Nothing has gone over my head. This point of yours have been addressed multiple times by me in this very thread if you care to read. Whatever the standards of that time were is irrelevant to the discussion as this thread was created in 2024 i.e OP is applauding that barbaric rule today. 100 years ago women didn't had the right to vote in UK and that was acceptable standard at that time. However, we can't applaud that in today's world isn't it?

Look lets be honest, its all about religion...lets not beat around the bush. OP is also well aware that Mughals, Ghazni, Ghori's, Taimur's etc were barbaric invaders. Since he is a student of political science, I expect him to at least know this. However, he still finds that period glorious because those invaders followed the same religion as him. However, in the case of Palestine since the invaders were from different religion and the people who are facing barbarism are from his own, he is finding it difficult. At the end of the day it is totally fine as we all support our religion but pls for goodness sake don't tell me it is not hypocritical...LOL :LOL:
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
They weren't barbaric by standards of the time though, that is the point I was making and which has gone completely over your head. If you want to compare with Romans, or Mongols fair enough, but you are comparing with Israel which is a modern nation of the 21st century.

You are justifying modern nations genocide by comparing to what happened centuries ago. If you want to compare genocides would be more honest to compare Israeli genocide to Nazi Germany ethnic cleansing of the Jews.
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So why follow religion from that time?
I’m ready to call our Israel as maniacs. No issue at all
 
Rajdeep said:
Nothing has gone over my head. This point of yours have been addressed multiple times by me in this very thread if you care to read. Whatever the standards of that time were is irrelevant to the discussion as this thread was created in 2024 i.e OP is applauding that barbaric rule today. 100 years ago women didn't had the right to vote in UK and that was acceptable standard at that time. However, we can't applaud that in today's world isn't it?

Look lets be honest, its all about religion...lets not beat around the bush. OP is also well aware that Mughals, Ghazni, Ghori's, Taimur's etc were barbaric invaders. Since he is a student of political science, I expect him to at least know this. However, he still finds that period glorious because those invaders followed the same religion as him. However, in the case of Palestine since the invaders were from different religion and the people who are facing barbarism are from his own, he is finding it difficult. At the end of the day it is totally fine as we all support our religion but pls for goodness sake don't tell me it is not hypocritical...LOL :LOL:
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OP is merely raising the question whether Mughal Empire was the best thing to ever happen to the subcontinent. Considering it was a period where India actually became recognised as a single country spanning lots of former fiefdoms, and also the wealth that was generated at that time, hardly an outlandish claim. It may be that India will go on to surpass that period, but that remains to be seen.
 
JaDed said:
So why follow religion from that time?
I’m ready to call our Israel as maniacs. No issue at all
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Perhaps the religion from that time is still considered superior to other forms of belief. This is a judgement call, just because Shakespeare was a writer from generations ago, doesn't mean he has to be considered inferior to modern writers.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
OP is merely raising the question whether Mughal Empire was the best thing to ever happen to the subcontinent. Considering it was a period where India actually became recognised as a single country spanning lots of former fiefdoms, and also the wealth that was generated at that time, hardly an outlandish claim. It may be that India will go on to surpass that period, but that remains to be seen.
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As far as wealth and development is concerned, the state of Israel is the most developed nation in middle east with its sophisticated technology and resources. So Israel also made lots of development in the land of Palestine. That is why I am also merely raising this comparison whether OP who considers Muslim Rule as most glorious era due to development work ignoring the barbarism will have the same viewpoint on Israel. It is apparent he doesn't and hence I am merely highlighting the hypocrisy.
 
Rajdeep said:
As far as wealth and development is concerned, the state of Israel is the most developed nation in middle east with its sophisticated technology and resources. So Israel also made lots of development in the land of Palestine. That is why I am also merely raising this comparison whether OP who considers Muslim Rule as most glorious era due to development work ignoring the barbarism will have the same viewpoint on Israel. It is apparent he doesn't and hence I am merely highlighting the hypocrisy.
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But the "barbarism" of the Mughal reign was standard for that era, it wasn't restricted to Mughals, in fact you could probably make a case they were a lot less barbaric than other medieval empires across the globe. Israel is a current nation vaporising whole populations, yet you seem to want to praise them for economic and technological achievements. Some might say that is a more barbaric mentality than any empire from centuries ago.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
Perhaps the religion from that time is still considered superior to other forms of belief. This is a judgement call, just because Shakespeare was a writer from generations ago, doesn't mean he has to be considered inferior to modern writers.
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So heads I win tails you lose?

Guess Israel takes inspiration from the Ottoman empires, and they are Shakespearean to them.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
But the "barbarism" of the Mughal reign was standard for that era, it wasn't restricted to Mughals, in fact you could probably make a case they were a lot less barbaric than other medieval empires across the globe. Israel is a current nation vaporising whole populations, yet you seem to want to praise them for economic and technological achievements. Some might say that is a more barbaric mentality than any empire from centuries ago.
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When have I ever said it was only restricted to Mughals? OP is not only talking about Mughals but the entire muslim rule for 1000 years which included likes of Ghori, Ghazni, Taimur etc etc.

Not sure why you are keep going back to the era. Barbarism is barbarism, human life is human life irrespective of the era or norm of that period. My point of bringing Israel is since OP condones the Israeli soldiers killing innocent Palestines, one would expect him to condone Islamic rule in India as well if his stance is based on truely humanitarian grounds. However when you cry a river for Palestine but glorify Islamic invaders for doing exactly the same, is hypocritical. Hiding behind the era or whether it was norm back then etc wont help as no one is saying it wasn't. However praising them in 2024 just bcoz Barbarism was a norm back then and somehow showing sympathy for Palestinian shows the dual nature of some. All lives matter...seems to be not the case for OP though.
 
These arguments perfectly distill why the subcontinent is a living hell for millions of people.

Instead of learning from history, we seek to weaponise it. Instead of thinking about meeting the needs of future generations, we want to relitigate ancient conflicts. Imagine if the biggest concentration of humanity on the planet showed this kind of mental exertion in cooperating to solve issues like climate change, food insecurity and healthcare coverage ?

Both Pakistan and India are guilty of politicising its history books. Some Pakistani textbooks bear no relation to reality. I've read some excerpts that simply melts the brain. In India, there's seems to be a concerted effort to erase parts of its own cultural and social history as part of a nationalist agenda.

In fairness, Western countries are not immune from this trend of partialising history. Britain's colonial history is barely taught and heavily whitewashed. However the reality is Indians cannot disown its Muslim history any more than Pakistanis can disown its Hindu and Sikh history, or any more than anybody can disown their own limbs.

I hope one day our societies become mature enough to study history in its entirety from all perspectives, including its inconveniencies. You cheat your children by teaching them such distorted narratives, and inculcate hatred in them that's difficult to unlearn even as adults !
 
The Bald Eagle said:
If anybody wants to know about baffling hypocrisy then he needs to read your above comment from another thread.

At one place you and other indian posters say occupation is a occupation, invasion is invasion but then you glorify Indian occupation and persecution of Kashmiris. You, yourself, have partly acknowledged it to be norm back then. So if I am living in past by making this thread in 2024 then Mr enlightened bro why are you glorifying Indian occupation of Kashmir.

I know you will beat around the bush but not answer my question directly.
Click to expand...

India didn't invade Kashmir. Pakistan invaded Kashmir.
 
Markhor said:
These arguments perfectly distill why the subcontinent is a living hell for millions of people.

Instead of learning from history, we seek to weaponise it. Instead of thinking about meeting the needs of future generations, we want to relitigate ancient conflicts. Imagine if the biggest concentration of humanity on the planet showed this kind of mental exertion in cooperating to solve issues like climate change, food insecurity and healthcare coverage ?

Both Pakistan and India are guilty of politicising its history books. Some Pakistani textbooks bear no relation to reality. I've read some excerpts that simply melts the brain. In India, there's seems to be a concerted effort to erase parts of its own cultural and social history as part of a nationalist agenda.

In fairness, Western countries are not immune from this trend of partialising history. Britain's colonial history is barely taught and heavily whitewashed. However the reality is Indians cannot disown its Muslim history any more than Pakistanis can disown its Hindu and Sikh history, or any more than anybody can disown their own limbs.

I hope one day our societies become mature enough to study history in its entirety from all perspectives, including its inconveniencies. You cheat your children by teaching them such distorted narratives, and inculcate hatred in them that's difficult to unlearn even as adults !
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Hopefully people here will learn something from it.
 
Spinoza: Not to laugh, not to lament, not to curse, but to understand.

The displays of entrenched tribalism do not really help in enhancing understanding. So it might be worth remembering what the joy of studying history, in a serious spirit, can be.

I was drawn to history because the past really is a different country. There is a real wonder in understanding, even if only partially, societies and individuals that are separated by time. It requires imagination and tremendous effort to enter a different mental universe, to understand the very different assumptions, beliefs and ways of thinking that existed in the past.

And it needs to be stressed that the point of a serious study of history is to try to understand, to get beyond impression and beyond moral disquisition.

The more we understand of the past, the more it becomes apparent that reality is plural and the past is complex and multi-faceted and not something we should become fanatical about.

Curiosity is a key virtue whenever we want to enlarge ourselves. And curiosity is a wonderful thing because it implies humility: we acknowledge that there is more to learn, that we don’t know it all.

And in this spirit of open-mindedness and learning from others, we might wish to recall the words of Kafka:

It is only in the choir that a certain amount of truth may reside.
 
JaDed said:
So heads I win tails you lose?

Guess Israel takes inspiration from the Ottoman empires, and they are Shakespearean to them.
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I doubt Israel took inspiration from the Ottoman empires, this is a spurious connection only being made by some Indian posters.
 
cricketjoshila said:
When Turkey converted Hagia Sofia to mosque, its Turkey going to its Islamic roots.

When Ram Mandir is built, its Hindutva Fascism.
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A secular Hindu is someone who does not practise Hinduism. Even better, if that person loathes Hinduism. Even chanting, 'Jai Sri Ram' for a Hindu is 'Hindutva Extremism'. While anyone having issues with Muslims saying, 'There is no God but Allah' is Islamophobia.
 
@Cover Drive Six you were asking for it in another thread.

Ashoka's own inscriptions tell us that a 100,000 died in the war and an even larger number died from wounds and hunger. A further 150,000 were taken away as captives.

www.hindustantimes.com

This excerpt from a book demolishes Ashoka’s reputation as pacifist

Sanjeev Sanyal’s interesting new book looks at how the Indian Ocean shaped human history. In the process, he questions a number of long held notions including Emperor Ashoka’s reputation as a pacifist
www.hindustantimes.com www.hindustantimes.com

Below are top 10 most cruel Indian rulers both Muslims and Hindus included.
thetemporalwisdom.wordpress.com

Ten Cruel Indian Rulers

Firuz Shah Tughlaq As the head of the Tughlaq dynasty, Firuz Shah Tughlaq ruled over the Sultanate of Delhi for 37 years from 1351 to 1388. The Sultan was a religious fanatic and imposed his Islami…
thetemporalwisdom.wordpress.com thetemporalwisdom.wordpress.com
 
cricketjoshila said:
When Turkey converted Hagia Sofia to mosque, its Turkey going to its Islamic roots.

When Ram Mandir is built, its Hindutva Fascism.
Click to expand...
Turkey was the bastion of Eastern Orthodox Church before Central Asian Turks invaded them around 1400's and forcefully usurped the land from the people living there.
Total crickets on this topic.
 
The Bald Eagle said:
@Cover Drive Six you were asking for it in another thread.

Ashoka's own inscriptions tell us that a 100,000 died in the war and an even larger number died from wounds and hunger. A further 150,000 were taken away as captives.

www.hindustantimes.com

This excerpt from a book demolishes Ashoka’s reputation as pacifist

Sanjeev Sanyal’s interesting new book looks at how the Indian Ocean shaped human history. In the process, he questions a number of long held notions including Emperor Ashoka’s reputation as a pacifist
www.hindustantimes.com www.hindustantimes.com

Below are top 10 most cruel Indian rulers both Muslims and Hindus included.
thetemporalwisdom.wordpress.com

Ten Cruel Indian Rulers

Firuz Shah Tughlaq As the head of the Tughlaq dynasty, Firuz Shah Tughlaq ruled over the Sultanate of Delhi for 37 years from 1351 to 1388. The Sultan was a religious fanatic and imposed his Islami…
thetemporalwisdom.wordpress.com thetemporalwisdom.wordpress.com
Click to expand...
I never considered Ashoka a great person. He killed thousands of people for power and later realized his wrongdoings, converted to Buddhism. Still, he is a thousand times better than the barbaric Mughals.
 
Rajdeep said:
So true. However, now muslims got their own separate country, right?

Wonder why they are not able to replicate the same economic success like their ancestors and living in IMF bailouts. On the other hand secular India, where 80% are Hindus, is flourishing. Looks like the reason behind historical Muslim rule's success were actually Hindus.
Click to expand...

Pakistan never existed nor did India. If Pakistan was created for Muslims then India too was created for Hindus.

Both countries did not exist before 1947.
 
Statpadder Inc said:
What's the opinion about ranjit singh in West Punjab
Click to expand...
Indian Sikh pilgrims reach Pakistan to attend Ranjit Singh’s death anniversary

As many as 447 Indian Sikh pilgrims have arrived at the Gurdwara Punja Sahib in Hassanabdal to participate in rituals in connection with the 185th death anniversary of Maharaja Ranjit Singh.

Upon arrival, the pilgrims were welcomed by officials of the Evacuee Trust Property Board and the Pakistan Sikh Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee.

On this occasion, Sikh Yatrees expressed satisfaction over arrangements made by the government.

Sardar Khushwant Singh, who was heading the jatha of pilgrims, said the people and government of Pakistan had always been welcoming and had taken good care of the Sikh holy sites which was why the country and its people were so dear to the Sikhs.

“We are feeling happy and comfortable here and we thank the government and the Evacuee Trust Property Board (ETPB) for making the best arrangements,” he said.

Speaking on the occasion, deputy Jatha leader Harjinder Kaur said Pakistan was very important for Sikhs because this was where Guru Nanak Dev was born and died.

She said the death anniversary of Maharaja Ranjit Singh was an important event in the Sikh religious calendar as he was the first ruler of the Sikh Empire. Ms Kaur said Sikh pilgrims came to Pakistan with the message of love, peace, friendship and harmony.

She expressed gratitude to the government for granting visas to the Sikh pilgrims.

arynews.tv

Indian Sikh pilgrims reach Pakistan to attend Ranjit Singh’s death anniversary

As many as 447 Indian Sikh pilgrims have arrived at the Gurdwara Punja Sahib in Hassanabdal to participate in rituals in connection with the 185th death
arynews.tv arynews.tv
 

How India’s Hindu Nationalists Are Weaponizing History Against Muslims​


About a months ago, a video emerged of an Indian teacher telling students to slap a 7-year-old classmate. The boy had gotten his multiplication tables wrong, but his real crime was being an Indian Muslim.

India used to be a secular democracy, but its current leader, Narendra Modi of the ruling Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), advances a radically different vision. Modi wants India to become a Hindu nation, in which India’s religious minorities (about 20% of the population) are second-class citizens and Muslims especially (about 14% of Indians) are compelled to accept increasing majoritarian violence. Indeed, stories of terrorizing Indian Muslims have become depressingly common in Modi’s India, with human rights groups documenting rising violence with each passing year. International groups, such as Freedom House and V-Dem, consider India only “partly free” and an “electoral autocracy” owing to the sharp decline of human and civil rights.

The BJP has always considered Muslims to be less Indian than Hindus. The political party was formed in 1980 as an offshoot of the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS), an all-male paramilitary organization founded in 1925 and modeled on Italian fascist groups such as Mussolini’s Blackshirts. Both the BJP and RSS view India as a nation for Hindus, by Hindus, and seek to coalesce and mobilize a Hindu identity that historically was porous and varied.

Early Hindu nationalist leaders endorsed violence against Indian Muslims. For example, in December 1938—mere weeks after Kristallnacht—the Hindu nationalist leader V. D. Savarkar declared that Muslims who oppose Hindu interests “will have to play the part of German-Jews.” The RSS’s second leader, M. S. Golwalkar, proclaimed that Germany’s “purging the country of the semitic Race - the Jews” is “a good lesson for us in Hindusthan to learn and profit by.” Such genocidal calls remain current today. In 2021, a Hindu nationalist leader urged his followers to be prepared to kill millions of Indian Muslims. Watchdog groups, including Genocide Watch and Early Warning (a project of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum), caution that signs of genocide are already manifest in India.

Modi is a lifelong member of the RSS. Before he became India’s Prime Minister in 2014, he was Chief Minister of Gujarat, a state which, during his watch in 2002, saw India’s worst communal riots since partition—leaving at least 1,000 people dead, most of them Muslim. This earned him international rebuke, including a 2005 U.S. travel ban, and notoriety at home as an anti-Muslim strongman. That reputation helped propel Modi and the BJP to victory in India’s 2014 general election. After five years of rising Hindu nationalist violence against Indian Muslims, Modi led the BJP to another election win in 2019. Although many Indians—including many Hindus—oppose the BJP, it currently enjoys unprecedented power to reshape India.

Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi waves to supporters in Kadi in 2002

Textbook wars
A key piece of the BJP’s agenda involves twisting history to demonize Muslims, and Hindu nationalists often zero-in on the Mughals, a dynasty that ruled parts of northern and central India during its heyday from about 1560 to 1720. Chief among Hindu nationalist disinformation about the Mughals are that these kings fuelled Hindu-Muslim conflict, a phenomenon that largely developed during British colonial rule (1757–1947). By vilifying earlier Indian kings, the British deflected attention from their exploitative and harmful colonial enterprise.

Contemporary Hindu nationalists follow British colonial ideas regarding Indian history—but they go further in attacking the Mughals. Sometimes Hindu nationalists falsely accuse the Mughals of committing a genocide. Other times they falsely malign the Mughals as colonialists, which depicts them—and by extension all Muslims today—as a foreign threat to India.

Hindu nationalists have in turn attacked the Taj Mahal as a Mughal-built monument, omitting it from tourist booklets and promoting the conspiracy theory that it used to be a Shiva Temple. They have removed parts of Mughal history from school textbooks. This renders many Indian children ignorant of key parts of their own history, including that the Mughals built a multicultural empire, patronized Hindu and Muslim religious groups, and relied on Hindu elites known as Rajputs to rule.

Hindu nationalists have also razed historical mosques. Most prominently, in 1992, a Hindu mob illegally destroyed an early 16th-century Mughal mosque in Ayodhya, a town in northern India. In 2020, Modi laid the foundation stone for a modern temple to the Hindu god Ram atop the mosque’s ruins. When completed, Ayodhya’s Ram Temple will embody the heady mix of anti-Muslim iconoclasm and Hindu triumphalism that is core to the BJP’s vision.

Source: Time Magazine
 
Western media doesn’t like India’s economic power rise to 5th place in world, India’s record breaking moon landing on South Pole and successfully hosting G20 in India under the leadership of Narendra Modiji
 
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