Was Virat Kohli's reluctance to include Ravi Ashwin in the 4th Test justified?

[karthikc]

I am just playing th devil's advocate here.

The reason given by Kohli is that Jadeja was included based on th fact that there quite a few left handed batsmen in th England team. In that case wasn't ashwins inclusion an automated choice since 200 of his test wickets have come against left handers.

If being an all rounder is the reason, then Ashwin also is an all rounder with a teat century to his credit.

If it is a horses for courses policy, then does Kohli mean to say that Thakur was selected based on his ability to handle swing bowling of James Anderson and score a quick 50?!

Why horses for courses policy only for bowlers and not for batsmen??

 

[Ab Fan]

I dont think Ashwin's exclusion can be justified. A player of his stature deserves a merit or actually a captain should look to figure out a way to have Ashwin in the XI. That is how valuable a cricketer Ashwin has been for India.

But Jadeja is clearly a better batsman than Ashwin. Ashwin has only two 50+ scores in SENA. Most of his batting exploits are in subcontinent and Windies.

There are two points here. Shardul's performance shouldn't justify Ashwin's exclusion and at the same time Jadeja's non performance with bat shouldn't be used by the other set of people to consider Ashwin's inclusion because Jadeja is a better bat than Ashwin and India need that because of their fragile batting lineup.

 

[Proactive_]

It drips of insincerity to me when Kohli calls Ashwin a legend when he got to 400 Test wickets and then proceeds to bench him for an entire Test series.

Let's get honest here, no "legend" in the history of the game with a great recent record would ever get dropped for an entire series regardless of the conditions.

Obviously something has happened which the outside world isn't privy to. It's all speculation but I don't think we'll see much of Ashwin in overseas tours for the rest of his career.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Not gonna comment on Ashwin in particular but I think the 4 seamer theory has certainly been justified. And I've stick to that stance regardless of whether we have won or not.

 

[AamchiMumbaikar]

Moot point. It has worked so far, did not miss him even in Oval. There was no way he was playing in first 3 tests courtesy weather and conditions.

 

[Itachi]

Even a "legend" doesn't get automatically selected in team India which I DO LIKE. Horses for courses. Use the appropriate tools for different scenarios.

Disregard the stature, position of players. It brings nothing except seniority culture.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Even a "legend" doesn't get automatically selected in team India which I DO LIKE. Horses for courses. Use the appropriate tools for different scenarios.

Disregard the stature, position of players. It brings nothing except seniority culture.

Except there is seniority & status culture.

Applies selectively tho.

 

[IndianMafia]

He did tell after the toss that Jadeja is selected for couple of reasons. One of the reason being that indian team does not have a left arm seamer/spinner in the eleven that makes the team too monotonous.

 

[MP2011]

Except there is seniority & status culture.

Applies selectively tho.

Yeah. Or else the likes of Pujara and Rahane would've been dropped long ago!

 

[OMB]

There will always be someone getting left out. The focus on team selection should be more on batting. The bowlers have performed.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

The ends justifies the means. He has won the test match and probably the series. That is more than enough to vindicate his decision. Ultimately a captain is judged by his victories, Kohli took a big risk by being bold and going against the pundits and fans. If India had lost people would have directly attributed it to not having Ashwin. So now that they have won we should applaud him for taking the risk.

 

[Mamoon]

Kohli has won 38 Tests as captain. He is the most successful Asian Test captain of all time by a country mile, but somehow, PPers always think that he doesn’t know what the correct team combination is and these keyboard warriors know better.

 

[dravidthewall]

Kohli has won 38 Tests as captain. He is the most successful Asian Test captain of all time by a country mile, but somehow, PPers always think that he doesn’t know what the correct team combination is and these keyboard warriors know better.

But but but In WTC under overcast condition he fail to choose 4 fast
bowler stratergy (leaving siraj) and including Ashwin cost the match . That was selection blunder by kohli.

 

[ezhil]

Ashwin record in England is rubbish and in SEna..he should play only in subcontinent pitches...also he is not good in limited overs ....India should not change winning combo.....series victory on the line...if we lose then, history lost...

 

[karthikc]

Ashwin record in England is rubbish and in SEna..he should play only in subcontinent pitches...also he is not good in limited overs ....India should not change winning combo.....series victory on the line...if we lose then, history lost...

What do you mean..in wtc he bowled well

 

[sweep_shot]

It was justified. India won convincingly.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Ashwin was excluded because pathetic middle order needed some cushion. Guess what Jadeja was unable to provide. He flunked in both innings with bat. His bowling has become pedestrian. Too many noballs. Full tosses. He had a big rough to play with against a vulnerable line up who struggled against spin only recently. But he was bowling filth most of the time. Siraj probably was not needed in hindsight. He looked jaded in the first innings and most part of the second innings.

 

[jnaveen1980]

But but but In WTC under overcast condition he fail to choose 4 fast
bowler stratergy (leaving siraj) and including Ashwin cost the match . That was selection blunder by kohli.

If it was oval or lords that selection would have been justified. Rain forecast was there for all 5 days. Just that England let us get away with selection blunders their team is very poor. NZ won't let us get away.

 

[Cryin Out Loud]

Nope not justified. Wasn’t enough in Jadeja’s batting performance to justify it. And Ashwin is a bowler at the top of his game.

 

[dravidthewall]

If it was oval or lords that selection would have been justified. Rain forecast was there for all 5 days. Just that England let us get away with selection blunders their team is very poor. NZ won't let us get away.

Siraj plays big role in lords win.He bowled beautifully in 5th day ..same said to shardul who contribute both bat and bowl in oval to win game for india. India restricted New Zealand for 130 for 6 something in 1st innings.That time it was great chance for india to take lead of 20 or 30 runs ..but they choose two spinners and they gone for wicketless..If siraj or shardul were there ,new Zealand allout by 170 or 180 runs in 1st innings...

 

[jnaveen1980]

Siraj plays big role in lords win.He bowled beautifully in 5th day ..same said to shardul who contribute both bat and bowl in oval to win game for india. India restricted New Zealand for 130 for 6 something in 1st innings.That time it was great chance for india to take lead of 20 or 30 runs ..but they choose two spinners and they gone for wicketless..If siraj or shardul were there ,new Zealand allout by 170 or 180 runs in 1st innings...

Yes. That much i agree. But there are other matches where he should have gone with Ashwin and he didn't. Just that NZ took advantage of that blunder. But England couldn't. At the oval Thakur basically protected Kohli's selection blunder with bat.

 

[AamchiMumbaikar]

Except there is seniority & status culture.

Applies selectively tho.

2 spinners do not make sense in first 3 tests on those green tops. Jadeja >> Ashwin as a batsman and is a south paw.
Ashwin could have replaced Umesh/ Shardul/ Siraj in 4th test. Siraj was not because he delivered in previous tests, Shardul/ Umesh are the ones in question and both justified their spots.

Are you hinting Rahane/ Pujara should have been replaced with Ashwin?

 

[AamchiMumbaikar]

Yes. That much i agree. But there are other matches where he should have gone with Ashwin and he didn't. Just that NZ took advantage of that blunder. But England couldn't. At the oval Thakur basically protected Kohli's selection blunder with bat.

As he clicked, we need to agree he punted and it paid off big time!

 

[jnaveen1980]

As he clicked, we need to agree he punted and it paid off big time!

But 4 seamers was an overkill at the oval. England also realized it badly. They also went in with 4 seamer foolishly instead of another spinner. Bumrah's one day type spell took the pitch out of the equation. This England line up is so woeful they have been collapsing against all the teams recently (ireland, west indies).

 

[AamchiMumbaikar]

But 4 seamers was an overkill at the oval. England also realized it badly. They also went in with 4 seamer foolishly instead of another spinner. Bumrah's one day type spell took the pitch out of the equation. This England line up is so woeful they have been collapsing against all the teams recently (ireland, west indies).

England team was weak even in 2018 still we lost 1-4. We lose to movement, any decent guy with seam movement will bundle us out and then they have to score only 250-300.

What if day 4 was not sunny? What if 2 spinners were tonked in first innings when it was seaming because we chose Ash and Jadeja, their first innings lead itself would have been ~ 200.

 

[Saurav]

its not justified but I also agree with the crowd that its not such a big thing as our pacers are performing

Now inclusion of Rahane is completely unjustified

 

[Saurav]

England team was weak even in 2018 still we lost 1-4. We lose to movement, any decent guy with seam movement will bundle us out and then they have to score only 250-300.

What if day 4 was not sunny? What if 2 spinners were tonked in first innings when it was seaming because we chose Ash and Jadeja, their first innings lead itself would have been ~ 200.

Ash never gets tonked,even Jadeja is reliable as far as economy is concerned

infact its the pacers who were getting tonked on day 2 before Kohli was forced to bring in Jadeja

 

[MP2011]

Siraj has been totally off the boil in the last 2 tests. May be time to rest him and bring in Ashwin?

 

[sindhiboy]

England team was weak even in 2018 still we lost 1-4. We lose to movement, any decent guy with seam movement will bundle us out and then they have to score only 250-300.

What if day 4 was not sunny? What if 2 spinners were tonked in first innings when it was seaming because we chose Ash and Jadeja, their first innings lead itself would have been ~ 200.

Both London test victories were on flat pitches. India are the masters of playing on flat decks. Engalnds bowling is probably better this year than 2018 barring a very poor moeen.

In the 2018 oval test, A freak partnership between butler and stuart broad prevented an india win. England also played two spinners in that test. So two spinners at the oval in september is a good idea .

 

[jnaveen1980]

Siraj has been totally off the boil in the last 2 tests. May be time to rest him and bring in Ashwin?

His pace was significantly down. 4 seamer theory works against averaging batting sides. If they are up against sides with better batting unit they will be worn out.

 

[dildilpak]

Siraj has been totally off the boil in the last 2 tests. May be time to rest him and bring in Ashwin?

Its gonna rain the next test. No point in going with a 3-2 bowling in such scenario.

 

[MP2011]

Its gonna rain the next test. No point in going with a 3-2 bowling in such scenario.

Didn't know this. Thanks.

 

[MP2011]

His pace was significantly down. 4 seamer theory works against averaging batting sides. If they are up against sides with better batting unit they will be worn out.

True. However, there aren't many better batting units left in test cricket. Slightest bit of bowling conditions, and they collapse in a heap.

 

[ezhil]

Look at his past records in England

 

[jnaveen1980]

Look at his past records in England

Shouldn't you do that to Shami? He was averaging 47. Ashwin was averaging 32.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

4 pacers template is working fine and India should continue with the same, Ashwin can come in for Jadeja but that's about it.

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

4 pacers template is working fine and India should continue with the same, Ashwin can come in for Jadeja but that's about it.

Ashwin can come in for Rahane. Even if that doesn't strengthen our batting his bowling will be a huge bonus.

 

[Swashbuckler]

Absolutely not.

There is no explanation for persisting with Rahane and ignoring Ashwin for all 4 tests. What is this selective policy?

Jadeja has been a big disappointment this time, Ashwin should play the fifth test ahead of him.

 

[Swashbuckler]

Look at his past records in England

Better than past records of Jadeja, Shami and Rohit. Rohit turned it around this time. What about past record of Pujara or Rahane?

Ashwin is at the peak of his powers and he played a major part in the historic test series win in Australia. Man of the series against England at home and best bowler in the WTC final. May not be all 4 tests but he should have played after the Headingley massacre.

 

[ezhil]

Ashwin overseas record is a joke.... already 7 tests in England for 18 wickets

 

[ezhil]

He is a home track bully .i feel Ashwin omission is the reason we r not 3-0 now and cannot lose the series like in 2018..

 

[ezhil]

May be Kohli should have given him one test ...but not now with the series victory in line...

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

2 spinners do not make sense in first 3 tests on those green tops. Jadeja >> Ashwin as a batsman and is a south paw.
Ashwin could have replaced Umesh/ Shardul/ Siraj in 4th test. Siraj was not because he delivered in previous tests, Shardul/ Umesh are the ones in question and both justified their spots.

Are you hinting Rahane/ Pujara should have been replaced with Ashwin?

Words like green tops and dust bowls are overused in cricketing circles.

Which test match was a GREEN top in this series?

A green top is Lords 2014.

A slight tinge of grass in some tests doesn't make it a green top just like a bit of spin or dry surface doesn't make it a dust bowl.

Ashwin could have EASILY played Lords and Oval test.

We won it so all good.

He could have played a role in 1st test 2nd innings too.

The thing is Kohli took a gamble and won.

Had the ball not reversed in Oval, he would have landed in a hot soup and fans would be singing a different tune.

Sooner or later, Kohli's fiascos will catch up with him.

Not saying Ashwin would have won us Oval but the thought process is all wrong.

Right now, Indian pacers are sooo good (and English batsmen are soo bad) that we win inspite of blunders.

 

[Ahmad-GERMANFC]

[MENTION=134809]sensible-indian-fan[/MENTION] in tough spot haha. ive seen him keep attacking Kohli all series yet he has masterminded to a 2-1 lead in England where India has always struggled in recent times

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

[MENTION=134809]sensible-indian-fan[/MENTION] in tough spot haha. ive seen him keep attacking Kohli all series yet he has masterminded to a 2-1 lead in England where India has always struggled in recent times

Haha.

Tho I dont mind a 2-1 lead over England.

My criticism is principle based. Not result based.

Time will tell how this plays out.

 

[dildilpak]

Words like green tops and dust bowls are overused in cricketing circles.

Which test match was a GREEN top in this series?

A green top is Lords 2014.

A slight tinge of grass in some tests doesn't make it a green top just like a bit of spin or dry surface doesn't make it a dust bowl.

Ashwin could have EASILY played Lords and Oval test.

We won it so all good.

He could have played a role in 1st test 2nd innings too.

The thing is Kohli took a gamble and won.

Had the ball not reversed in Oval, he would have landed in a hot soup and fans would be singing a different tune.

Sooner or later, Kohli's fiascos will catch up with him.

Not saying Ashwin would have won us Oval but the thought process is all wrong.

Right now, Indian pacers are sooo good (and English batsmen are soo bad) that we win inspite of blunders.

I dont think that the Oval Jadeja selection was purely a gamble as Kohli had already articulated the reason at toss - pre-existing footmarks which if the predicted sunny weather played out would have developed into a rough. And unlike most of the ‘selectors’ in this forum, the coaches & Kohli have played enough cricket to realize that Jadeja’s bowling into the rough would aid in ball reversing on 4th or 5th day. That was actually an astute assessment, not a gamble.

And while Ashwin is a good bowler, i have seen that Indians do romanticize his importance in SENA conditions then his stats show - maybe the team management were justified to think his batting is a liability in SENA & that was affecting the team balance . India won Gabba without Ashwin & two tests in England, so yeah - it can be done.

 

[Unleashed]

Words like green tops and dust bowls are overused in cricketing circles.

Which test match was a GREEN top in this series?

A green top is Lords 2014.

A slight tinge of grass in some tests doesn't make it a green top just like a bit of spin or dry surface doesn't make it a dust bowl.

Ashwin could have EASILY played Lords and Oval test.

We won it so all good.

He could have played a role in 1st test 2nd innings too.

The thing is Kohli took a gamble and won.

Had the ball not reversed in Oval, he would have landed in a hot soup and fans would be singing a different tune.

Sooner or later, Kohli's fiascos will catch up with him.

Not saying Ashwin would have won us Oval but the thought process is all wrong.

Right now, Indian pacers are sooo good (and English batsmen are soo bad) that we win inspite of blunders.

It seems like this is based on hope rather than any rationale.

Weird for a indian fan to hope like this.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

It seems like this is based on hope rather than any rationale.

Weird for a indian fan to hope like this.

Not hope.

Just looking at reality as it is.

There are countless selection blunders done by Kohli over the years.

Right from 2015.

These days, it's getting ridiculous.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

I dont think that the Oval Jadeja selection was purely a gamble as Kohli had already articulated the reason at toss - pre-existing footmarks which if the predicted sunny weather played out would have developed into a rough. And unlike most of the ‘selectors’ in this forum, the coaches & Kohli have played enough cricket to realize that Jadeja’s bowling into the rough would aid in ball reversing on 4th or 5th day. That was actually an astute assessment, not a gamble.

And while Ashwin is a good bowler, i have seen that Indians do romanticize his importance in SENA conditions then his stats show - maybe the team management were justified to think his batting is a liability in SENA & that was affecting the team balance . India won Gabba without Ashwin & two tests in England, so yeah - it can be done.

1. Didn't say we should drop Jaddu in Oval.

2. Kohli talked about rough reg Jaddu. That aspect he was right.

3. Reverse swing was bonus. Bumrah's magical spell changed the game.

4. Again, it's not about Ashwin per se. He may or may not have won it. It's about continuous blunders in selection.

Kohli gambled with 4 pacers and won.

Fair enough.

There will be a day when the gamble will fall on his face.

And you will see how the same fans will react.

Turn back the clock 5 years, fans used to call me negative for going against Dhoni here.

In tests first and later in LOIs.

What happened next is there for all to see...

I don't think it will happen to Kohli cos India is too strong but continual mistakes are bound to show up someway or the other.

Lets see.

I do hope it doesn't cost India much tho.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

1. Didn't say we should drop Jaddu in Oval.

2. Kohli talked about rough reg Jaddu. That aspect he was right.

3. Reverse swing was bonus. Bumrah's magical spell changed the game.

4. Again, it's not about Ashwin per se. He may or may not have won it. It's about continuous blunders in selection.

Kohli gambled with 4 pacers and won.

Fair enough.

There will be a day when the gamble will fall on his face.

And you will see how the same fans will react.

Turn back the clock 5 years, fans used to call me negative for going against Dhoni here.

In tests first and later in LOIs.

What happened next is there for all to see...

I don't think it will happen to Kohli cos India is too strong but continual mistakes are bound to show up someway or the other.

Lets see.

I do hope it doesn't cost India much tho.

I mean in places like Oval.

Not in general.

4 pace attack is a great concept.

 

[shaz619]

I mean in places like Oval.

Not in general.

4 pace attack is a great concept.

Some Indian fans ruthlessly attack him because he doesn’t pick their favourites but at the end of the day you are now on the brink of a series win in England and have produced your best seam attack ever under Kohli

 

[globalcitizen]

You can be emotional fools on a forum because well no one cares.
Kohli can't be emotional like that and has to pick best team for the conditions. Yes pitch had something for spinners on 5th day but you pick a bowler who can be successful in both the innings.
Umesh and thakur both were successful and Siraj was not getting dropped after good performances in last test.

 

[Space Cat]

Ashwin didnt play here in NZ ether.

Obviously a good bowler but the fact he regularly cannot make his own side dims his legacy in my eyes.

 

[Sir Alex]

Ends justify means. India is leading 2-1 and it would not.have been 3-0 I'd Ashwin played the third test.

Jadeja has justified his selection ojnthese unhelpful pitches with control and also shown his utility with the bat. So no question of dropping him.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Ends justify means. India is leading 2-1 and it would not.have been 3-0 I'd Ashwin played the third test.

Jadeja has justified his selection ojnthese unhelpful pitches with control and also shown his utility with the bat. So no question of dropping him.

??? In the TC final, Ashwin looked way better on an out-and-out seaming track. Jadeja was not good at all. Batting wise Jaddus' 143 runs in 7 innings is nothing to speak of. Ashwin could very well have scored those runs.

India is leading 2-1 thanks to dumb bowling strategy of England at the Lords to tailenders. Wins masked so many blunders.

 

[Saurav]

Ends justify means. India is leading 2-1 and it would not.have been 3-0 I'd Ashwin played the third test.

Jadeja has justified his selection ojnthese unhelpful pitches with control and also shown his utility with the bat. So no question of dropping him.

no they do not. You can win despite bad selections and lose with right ones.

 

[Saurav]

Ends justify means. India is leading 2-1 and it would not.have been 3-0 I'd Ashwin played the third test.

Jadeja has justified his selection ojnthese unhelpful pitches with control and also shown his utility with the bat. So no question of dropping him.

no they do not. You can win despite bad selections and lose with right ones.

 

[CrIc_Mystique]

all said and done, the conditions in Manc are overcast and rainy....and the weather report points to this....dont see ashwin playing.
If not overcast manchester takes spin cue - ball of the century from shane warne.
i guess vhiari/surya for rahane and ishant/shami for siraj is a given
may be ashwin for umesh...at a stretch...
In a way ,if he doesnt play....might be good for us
he will download all the anger on the 20-20 wc.....
Go Indiaaaaaaa

 

[dildilpak]

all said and done, the conditions in Manc are overcast and rainy....and the weather report points to this....dont see ashwin playing.
If not overcast manchester takes spin cue - ball of the century from shane warne.
i guess vhiari/surya for rahane and ishant/shami for siraj is a given
may be ashwin for umesh...at a stretch...
In a way ,if he doesnt play....might be good for us
he will download all the anger on the 20-20 wc.....
Go Indiaaaaaaa

If this match happens, with all the covid cases!

 

[drubwrubnat]

??? Batting wise Jaddus' 143 runs in 7 innings is nothing to speak of. Ashwin could very well have scored those runs.
.

Disclaimer: This is my personal opinion only

You say ashwin couldve score those runs, but he cannot score these runs at will, but jadeja can. He is a hit or miss is Jadeja, but the opposition knows that he can hit.

Its called a deterrent.
Ashwin is very intelligent game wise but its horses for courses. He is not as talented as Warne/ Murali/ Saqlain or even Sachin as a bowler. So what if he is dropped, he will play in other venues.

Btw why is he sitting alone in the team dugouts, and yapping so much on his YT channel leaking inside info and trying to cash in YT while still playing.

 

[MP2011]

Jadeja has justified his selection ojnthese unhelpful pitches with control and also shown his utility with the bat. So no question of dropping him.

He hasn't. For a specialist bat to have scored 140-odd runs in 4 tests is nothing to write home about. And it's not that he has taken bucketful of wickets either.

So no, he hasn't justified his selection, at least not in the 5 tests he played in England this summer.

 

[MP2011]

Obviously a good bowler but the fact he regularly cannot make his own side dims his legacy in my eyes.

Not Ashwin's fault if despite being India's best bowler in the WTC final, he wasn't selected in any of the 4 subsequent tests. He also took a 6-for in the only county game he played for Surrey before England series started.

None of our main bowlers bothered to get any county cricket under their belts, only Ashwin did. They were obviously busy filling their Insta handles with their travel stories.

 

[Cover Drive Six]

Good riddance.
End of the day results are matter. Ashwin's exclusion completely justified with 2-1 result.

Don't fall for the hype of Ashwin fangirls, no one will care after 2-1

 

[street cricketer]

Ashwin being benched during the series is not an indictment on him as a bowler but rather a nod to the conditions in England. Neither England nor New Zealand field a genuine spinner in their home conditions very often because they don't have sunny weather or have green wickets, both of which go against the selection of a genuine spinner.

A sunny weather is a must for the selection of a genuine spinner in the absence of a dry wicket and the only test which had a decent amount of sun this series was the Oval test where Ashwin could have played in the place of Siraj who didn't contribute much in the test. In all other tests, the spinner didn't have a whole deal to work with as there was constant overcast conditions and the wickets had a decent amount of grass cover. Jadeja played in the XI not because he was a spinner but rather as a batsman. NZ wouldn't have fielded any spinner in the series and they would have still won. In places like England, if a seamer has a value of 9 out of 10, a spinner has a value of just 5 or 6. In Australia though, you would want a spinner because the weather is a lot more sunny and the wickets are a lot flatter. A spinner's value would be around 7 or 7.5 in Australia and Ashwin contributed highly to India's series win there.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Good riddance.
End of the day results are matter. Ashwin's exclusion completely justified with 2-1 result.

Don't fall for the hype of Ashwin fangirls, no one will care after 2-1

Well India did win 2 tests in Australia without Kohli. So we can safely leave him out right?

 

[Saurav]

Ashwin being benched during the series is not an indictment on him as a bowler but rather a nod to the conditions in England. Neither England nor New Zealand field a genuine spinner in their home conditions very often because they don't have sunny weather or have green wickets, both of which go against the selection of a genuine spinner.

A sunny weather is a must for the selection of a genuine spinner in the absence of a dry wicket and the only test which had a decent amount of sun this series was the Oval test where Ashwin could have played in the place of Siraj who didn't contribute much in the test. In all other tests, the spinner didn't have a whole deal to work with as there was constant overcast conditions and the wickets had a decent amount of grass cover. Jadeja played in the XI not because he was a spinner but rather as a batsman. NZ wouldn't have fielded any spinner in the series and they would have still won. In places like England, if a seamer has a value of 9 out of 10, a spinner has a value of just 5 or 6. In Australia though, you would want a spinner because the weather is a lot more sunny and the wickets are a lot flatter. A spinner's value would be around 7 or 7.5 in Australia and Ashwin contributed highly to India's series win there.

They don't because they don't have the spinners of quality of Ashwin

Aus has been off graveyard for visiting offies for years. Check Murali's,Bhajji's and Swann's record there.

Ashwin outbowled Lyon by miles there.It doesnt become easy because Ashwin did it.

 

[street cricketer]

They don't because they don't have the spinners of quality of Ashwin

Aus has been off graveyard for visiting offies for years. Check Murali's,Bhajji's and Swann's record there.

Ashwin outbowled Lyon by miles there.It doesnt become easy because Ashwin did it.

Yes you're right and we could easily have played Ashwin in the XI but the number one reason for Ashwin being benched is not himself or the conditions. The number one reason is actually our fast bowlers, or more particularly, the batting ability of our fast bowlers. If our 9, 10 and 11 read like Cummins, Starc and Hazlewood, we could afford to carry Ashwin as both Cummins and Starc are capable lower order batsmen. But unfortunately nearly all of our fast bowlers bat like Hazlewood and therefore we simply couldn't afford to carry Ashwin as well in the XI as we desperately needed someone who could strengthen the lower order.

In fact, the one biggest difference I saw between the 2018 series and this series is that the team management understood that England mostly beat us by virtue of their better lower order and took steps to strengthen our lower order this time around. I would also pin a little bit of blame on Ashwin himself because when their careers started, I think Ashwin was a better batsman than Jadeja. But his batting completely fell down the wayside as his bowling capability, particularly in overseas conditions improved very much in the last 3-5 years. He would often have a waft outside the corridor trying to drive the ball and while Jadeja isn't some great batsman in English conditions, the least he did was he hung around there for some overs.

On hindsight, perhaps Ashwin could have played in place of Jadeja this series as Jadeja didn't set the place on fire with the bat but he did score one fifty and hung around, and let's be honest, before the series started, you would much rather have Jadeja in your lower order than Ashwin purely for batting purpose because Jadeja had better form leading up to the series. What I think is non negotiable though is the 4 bowler template in overseas conditions (3 quicks + one bowling allrounder like Shardul) as it gives a great advantage in terms of bowling. The only conditions where I would change the template to 3+2 is when the conditions are expected to be flat or sunny like at the Oval or in Australia. I think South Africa would roll out green seamers for us to close the gap this winter and Ashwin needs to bat better than Jadeja in the home season to get into the XI for the South African series as I don't think you can play 2 spinners on a green seamer.

 

[Swashbuckler]

Ashwin didnt play here in NZ ether.

Obviously a good bowler but the fact he regularly cannot make his own side dims his legacy in my eyes.

He played the first test in Wellington. Bowled just one innings because of match situation, you almost beat us by an innings.

He is unable to make the side because our middle order batsmen can't bat. Hence they are choosing a slightly better (more in form) batting option in Jadeja/Thakur.

Without him we would never have won the series in Australia, best player from both sides in the 3 tests he played, ahead of Cummins after that SCG rearguard. Without Ashwin we would have headed to Gabba 0-3 down and not 1-1. Disgrace that he is being kept aside while we persist with a rubbish middle order.

 

[Saurav]

Yes you're right and we could easily have played Ashwin in the XI but the number one reason for Ashwin being benched is not himself or the conditions. The number one reason is actually our fast bowlers, or more particularly, the batting ability of our fast bowlers. If our 9, 10 and 11 read like Cummins, Starc and Hazlewood, we could afford to carry Ashwin as both Cummins and Starc are capable lower order batsmen. But unfortunately nearly all of our fast bowlers bat like Hazlewood and therefore we simply couldn't afford to carry Ashwin as well in the XI as we desperately needed someone who could strengthen the lower order.

In fact, the one biggest difference I saw between the 2018 series and this series is that the team management understood that England mostly beat us by virtue of their better lower order and took steps to strengthen our lower order this time around. I would also pin a little bit of blame on Ashwin himself because when their careers started, I think Ashwin was a better batsman than Jadeja. But his batting completely fell down the wayside as his bowling capability, particularly in overseas conditions improved very much in the last 3-5 years. He would often have a waft outside the corridor trying to drive the ball and while Jadeja isn't some great batsman in English conditions, the least he did was he hung around there for some overs.

On hindsight, perhaps Ashwin could have played in place of Jadeja this series as Jadeja didn't set the place on fire with the bat but he did score one fifty and hung around, and let's be honest, before the series started, you would much rather have Jadeja in your lower order than Ashwin purely for batting purpose because Jadeja had better form leading up to the series. What I think is non negotiable though is the 4 bowler template in overseas conditions (3 quicks + one bowling allrounder like Shardul) as it gives a great advantage in terms of bowling. The only conditions where I would change the template to 3+2 is when the conditions are expected to be flat or sunny like at the Oval or in Australia. I think South Africa would roll out green seamers for us to close the gap this winter and Ashwin needs to bat better than Jadeja in the home season to get into the XI for the South African series as I don't think you can play 2 spinners on a green seamer.

I'm debating Ashwin for Thakur/Ishant as part of 4 bowlers. Jadeja has been better batsman for a while now.

Yes Thakur has scored and there is not enough evidence to suggest that he's better batsman than Ashwin.Infact Ashwin's FC record is much better.

As bowlers,Thakur has done nothing Ashwin can't or hasn't done this year.Infact Thakur can be hit around when things are not happening while Ashwin offers economy as a guarantee.

If SA or anyone else offers greentops,I will prefer Thakur too as spin won't be a factor.Otherwise you play Ashwin

 

[Cover Drive Six]

Well India did win 2 tests in Australia without Kohli. So we can safely leave him out right?

Yes we can leave him considering his current form, India winning without his contribution with bat.

 

[Hasan123]

Ashwin is definitely a better bowler than Jadeja. Jadeja got preference in this series due to his batting and fielding being superior to Ashwins.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

1. Didn't say we should drop Jaddu in Oval.

2. Kohli talked about rough reg Jaddu. That aspect he was right.

3. Reverse swing was bonus. Bumrah's magical spell changed the game.

4. Again, it's not about Ashwin per se. He may or may not have won it. It's about continuous blunders in selection.

Kohli gambled with 4 pacers and won.

Fair enough.

There will be a day when the gamble will fall on his face.

And you will see how the same fans will react.

Turn back the clock 5 years, fans used to call me negative for going against Dhoni here.

In tests first and later in LOIs.

What happened next is there for all to see...

I don't think it will happen to Kohli cos India is too strong but continual mistakes are bound to show up someway or the other.

Lets see.

I do hope it doesn't cost India much tho.

He didn't GAMBLE with 4 pacers, you think he gambled but his decision was tactically sound.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

He didn't GAMBLE with 4 pacers, you think he gambled but his decision was tactically sound.

Yes and no.

I specifically mentioned in Oval and not generally.

Check the next post where I quoted myself.

Oval could have easily backfired but for a magic spell.

Lords and Oval were 2 games where if things turned out differently, he would have been criticized like crazy.