West Indies of 80s vs Pakistan of 90s vs Australia of 2000s vs India of 2010s in ODIs

Tusker · Oct 15, 2017

wrongun said:
No, I'll demonstrate an exact allegory of your argument.

The umpiring error shown below (according to your logic) proves that the entire WI series of dominance was orchestrated by home board umpires

Can you show me where I said ONE umpiring error = Proof of anything ?

R0H1T · Oct 15, 2017

wrongun said:
No, I'll demonstrate an exact allegory of your argument.

The umpiring error shown below (according to your logic) proves that the entire WI series of dominance was orchestrated by home board umpires conspiring to raise the WI to greatness at the expense of their own teams (no logic or motive for this need by provided, in accordance with your own example). So yes, WI may have SEEMED to be one of the atg teams & dominate for 15 years, but really it was all up to the umpires.

Now, go show me the share of wrong calls vs the WI. Start with India tour of WI 82/83 please.

Craig McDermott clearly missing the ball & clipping the helmet- a single error which proves a vast conspiracy which negates the entire WI golden era- seen below.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HezgwT8fBU

That;s just one, there's a at least a dozen going against India starting with the Brisbane test in 2003, mostly against one team & certainly favoring another, by one set of umpires all inside 12 months!

Proactive_ · Oct 15, 2017

Tusker said:
lets try again with visual effects :

See if you can spot the relevant bit.

But you alleged that it was a systematic ploy against specifically the Indians. Where is the conspiracy? The Indian captain termed it as a part of the game and "moved forward". By your logic, there would always have been a conspiracy against every team that had the short end of the stick as far as umpiring as concerned.

I already showed you two HUGE decisions that went against Aus in the 2001 Kolkata Test. One in the middle of the big partnership and other being one of the worst LBW decisions ever where the ball pitched atleast a foot outside leg. Where did all the conspiracy go then?

the Great Khan · Oct 15, 2017

the windies of the 80's would hammer everyone.

Ahmad Shah · Oct 15, 2017

Rana said:
Pak of the 90s is a joke. As if they were a dominant force outside Asia??

Same goes with India, they are not invincible outside home. You cannot compare them to the Australia side upto the year 2007. That side was a monster everywhere

Pakistan in 90s were the most dominatant force
even in outside asia

in 90s Pakistan won series in england not once but twice 1992 n 96
in 90s Pakistan[/RIGHT] drawn series in south africa 1998
in 90s pakistan even won test match in australia 1995
in 90s pakistan drawn series in india 1999 and also won asian test championship
in 90s pakistan reached final of world cup which was held in england 1999

Rana · Oct 15, 2017

Ahmad Shah said:
Pakistan in 90s were the most dominatant force
even in outside asia

in 90s Pakistan won series in england not once but twice 1992 n 96
in 90s Pakistan[/RIGHT] drawn series in south africa 1998
in 90s pakistan even won test match in australia 1995
in 90s pakistan drawn series in india 1999 and also won asian test championship
in 90s pakistan reached final of world cup which was held in england 1999

10 years from now, there could well be a thread in which people will argue that the Pakistan under Misbah's captaincy was a dominant force like the Aussies and the Saffers etc. They can also list an amount of monumental achievements like you have to back that claim. What people tend to disregard is the inconsistency that has always been a key error when it comes to Pakistan. When I compare the strong teams of now with the Monster Australian side, I always look for the level of consistency that was part and parcel with the Aussies. Unfortunately, I have never witnessed dominance at such a consistent level they way the Aussies were. They were relentless, they hardly ever lost. They won 2 ICC world cups with an unbeaten streak. It was near impossible to beat them in Australia, and they were expected to win away from home every time. That is what you call domination my friend

Tusker · Oct 15, 2017

Proactive_ said:
But you alleged that it was a systematic ploy against specifically the Indians. Where is the conspiracy?

Where did I say that ? I said Aus were usually the benefeciares of umiring decisions.

Because genuine honest mistakes tend NOT to overwhelmingly favor one side. Mind you this requires some common sense to understand. Don't fret if you don't get it.

Whether conspiracy or sheer incompetence of diabolical proportions or act of God ... the bottom line is Aussies benefited heavily from umpiring in that series. This is diametrically opposite to your earlier position of "ohh nothing was wrong wonly wid umpiring" ( see below your quotes ). Want to backtrack now or shift goal posts ?

The Indian captain termed it as a part of the game and "moved forward". By your logic, there would always have been a conspiracy against every team that had the short end of the stick as far as umpiring as concerned.

So now you have shifted goal post to Captains Press conference comments to decide if the umpiring was diabolical? What did you expect Ganguly to say when Bowden had apologized already ? That Umpiring sucks and be fined heavily by Match Referee ? There were just no checks and balances for umpires back then. They were like cowboys. Could get away with murder without any repercussions whatsoever. It took a hard stance by BCCI to get Bucknor fired in 2008 but he had single handedly wrecked many a test matches for India.

I already showed you two HUGE decisions that went against Aus in the 2001 Kolkata Test. One in the middle of the big partnership and other being one of the worst LBW decisions ever where the ball pitched atleast a foot outside leg. Where did all the conspiracy go then?

Have you found the footage with pitch mat for RD's lbw ? I guess not.

And no wonder you missed mentioning Gillespie's caught behind. Also missed is VVS laxman given out caught behind off his fore arm in 1st inngs. Perhaps it doesn't fit your agenda ?

You still want to continue this discussion about Kolkatta 2001 ?

Here Gillespies repreive and he went on to add more than 100 runs with Waugh after that ... that single decision completely changed the course of that match : https://youtu.be/mQGTXhqVmCQ?t=5m32s

And here is the VVS 1st inngs decision: https://youtu.be/mQGTXhqVmCQ?t=19m41s

So here are your quotes from yesterday ... that I want you to comment on now.

But again, I just don't remember any controversy regarding umpiring in that series. You're again trying to stir the pot for no reason.

And since when did you start having beef with Bowden? At this rate, you're probably gonna run out of every non Indian umpire to have ever officiated before the DRS. Not a single player from either side ever commented on the umpiring in that series, not even board officials or any other related personnel.

jnaveen1980 · Oct 15, 2017

austerlitz said:
Lee,gillespie,mcgrath and warne are no comparison for roberts,holding,marshall,garner,croft.
Haynes-greenidge equal or near equal of hayden-langer.
Richards ahead of ponting.
Llyod,gomes,Kalicharan/Rowe,Richardson equal of any lower order.But gilchrist evens it out.

West Indies of the 80s are the only team to ever whitewash england 5-0 in england,australia 3-0 in australia and india 3-0 in India.Credit to Imran's pakistan where its due .They were the one side that fought west indies well during that time.Drew a couple of series home and away though finally lost 2-0 in 92.

Heck India beat them twice in 1983 world cup. Australia had a crazy unbeaten streak. West Indies never had to play against "always favorites" South Africa and their genuine quicks or rejuvenated Srilanka.

Proactive_ · Oct 15, 2017

Tusker said:
Where did I say that ? I said Aus were usually the benefeciares of umiring decisions.

Because genuine honest mistakes tend NOT to overwhelmingly favor one side. Mind you this requires some common sense to understand. Don't fret if you don't get it.

Whether conspiracy or sheer incompetence of diabolical proportions or act of God ... the bottom line is Aussies benefited heavily from umpiring in that series. This is diametrically opposite to your earlier position of "ohh nothing was wrong wonly wid umpiring" ( see below your quotes ). Want to backtrack now or shift goal posts ?

And the proof that the umpiring ALWAYS "overwhelmingly" favored only the Australians is? I've already shown you multiple wrong decisions in a single match going against the Australians from the 98 and 01 tours. If there wasn't any implied malice in your alleged criticism of the umpiring, then what are you arguing for? It's funny that only Tusker from PakPassion has arrived at this path breaking judgement that umpiring used to "always favour the Aussies". Also funnily, it seems like no cricket playing nation ever encountered bad umpiring while playing against Australia except for India. You really think it was such a consistent affair with Australia, wouldn't it have been brought much more to light by not just India but also other countries playing them? Funny how it works.

And no, there is nothing wrong with the umpiring because you've backtracked on your earlier narrative of casting aspersions on the integrity of the umpires which was your initial argument.. to now a point that you can't even put forth a concrete reason for your criticism.

So now you have shifted goal post to Captains Press conference comments to decide if the umpiring was diabolical? What did you expect Ganguly to say when Bowden had apologized already ? That Umpiring sucks and be fined heavily by Match Referee ? There were just no checks and balances for umpires back then. They were like cowboys. Could get away with murder without any repercussions whatsoever. It took a hard stance by BCCI to get Bucknor fired in 2008 but he had single handedly wrecked many a test matches for India.

Why not? You make every Test match that India played against Australia sound like Sydney 2008 with your exaggerations. If there were indeed that many decisions going against India on a consistent basis, BCCI would have been the last organisation alive to not jump into the mud fight. They illustrated that clearly in SA 2001 by throwing a hissy fit over Tendulkar's ball tampering (something he himself admitted to by saying that "everyone does it").

Have you found the footage with pitch mat for RD's lbw ? I guess not.

And no wonder you missed mentioning Gillespie's caught behind. Also missed is VVS laxman given out caught behind off his fore arm in 1st inngs. Perhaps it doesn't fit your agenda ?

You still want to continue this discussion about Kolkatta 2001 ?

Here Gillespies repreive and he went on to add more than 100 runs with Waugh after that ... that single decision completely changed the course of that match : https://youtu.be/mQGTXhqVmCQ?t=5m32s

And here is the VVS 1st inngs decision: https://youtu.be/mQGTXhqVmCQ?t=19m41s

So here are your quotes from yesterday ... that I want you to comment on now.

The RD LBW is in the highlights package that you yourself posted. I'd be pretty interested to know your thoughts as to how it's anything but a plumb LBW.

And as the Kolkata 2001 Test showed, wrong decisions were against both the teams. If it was Gillespie and Laxman for India; it was Gilchrist (who scored a match winning century in the previous match) and Dravid (who went on to score 180+ and save the match in question). It's funny that how you wouldn't talk about that Umpire Bansal's antics in the Kolkata Test who was raising the finger not even a second after any Indian's appeal. Funny how you sweep all the questionable Indian umpiring from the 98 and 01 series under the carpet.

Tusker · Oct 15, 2017

And no, there is nothing wrong with the umpiring because you've backtracked on your earlier narrative of casting aspersions on the integrity of the umpires which was your initial argument.. to now a point that you can't even put forth a concrete reason for your criticism

So lets see this ... 7 wrong decisions made in one single test majority favoring Aus equates to No problems with umpiring ? Are you still claiming that Aus won fair and Square ? :))

And for the Last time your RD LBW Does NOT have a Replay with the pitch MAT.

And yeah I stand by my claim that Umpiring invariably favored Aus in matches vs India. That it happened many times suggests more than honest mistakes. Where I live honest mistakes tend to cut both ways over a period of time.

So far all you have is one or two decisions for which there were equal bad decisions going against India in that 2001 Kolkatta test.

Proactive_ · Oct 15, 2017

Tusker said:
So lets see this ... 7 wrong decisions made in one single test majority favoring Aus equates to No problems with umpiring ? Are you still claiming that Aus won fair and Square ?

And for the Last time your RD LBW Does NOT have a Replay with the pitch MAT.

And yeah I stand by my claim that Umpiring invariably favored Aus in matches vs India. That it happened many times suggests more than honest mistakes. Where I live honest mistakes tend to cut both ways over a period of time.

So far all you have is one or two decisions for which there were equal bad decisions going against India in that 2001 Kolkatta test.

But what were the wrong decisions? You're going by the words of a correspondent. A correspondent can claim any close LBW shout that didn't go India's way as a decision against India.. does it prove anything? Because the BCCI simply ignoring 7 nicks not being given by the umpires or seven inside edge LBW decisions against Indian batsmen.. just seems way to outrageous to be true. It's funny that you think that even in the DRS era, decisions don't influence the entire outcome of series. Remember Joe Root's dismissal in the last over in the 2nd T20 by Umpire Shamshuddin, which cost them the series? Part of a conspiracy.. ain't it?

rizwanak · Oct 15, 2017

West Indies, no doubt

Tusker · Oct 15, 2017

Proactive_ said:
But what were the wrong decisions? You're going by the words of a correspondent. A correspondent can claim any close LBW shout that didn't go India's way as a decision against India.. does it prove anything? Because the BCCI simply ignoring 7 nicks not being given by the umpires or seven inside edge LBW decisions against Indian batsmen.. just seems way to outrageous to be true.

the same media report didnt seem outrageous when you were trying to twist it to suit your agenda ... wonder why ... lol :))

It's funny that you think that even in the DRS era, decisions don't influence the entire outcome of series. Remember Joe Root's dismissal in the last over in the 2nd T20 by Umpire Shamshuddin, which cost them the series? Part of a conspiracy.. ain't it?

I didnt see that match. Feel free to post a clip or details. Pretty sure it did not have like half a dozen decisions going wrong because we would have heard about it.

Proactive_ · Oct 15, 2017

Tusker said:
the same media report didnt seem outrageous when you were trying to twist it to suit your agenda ... wonder why ... lol

I was only quoting what Ganguly ACTUALLY said.

I didnt see that match. Feel free to post a clip or details. Pretty sure it did not have like half a dozen decisions going wrong because we would have heard about it.

Hard to find the footage due to copyright.. but look here:

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/...ngland-2nd-T20I-england-in-india-t20i-series/

Bumrah to Root, OUT, appeal for lbw, and that's a wicket that will breathe life into the Indian cmap. Looked like an optimistic appeal but the umpire raised the finger quickly. Root tried to pull across the line when he could have simply tucked it to the leg side. Looks like there was an inside-edge. Root unlucky
JE Root lbw b Bumrah 38 (82m 38b 2x4 0x6) SR: 100.00

Tusker · Oct 15, 2017

Proactive_ said:
I was only quoting what Ganguly ACTUALLY said.

Why were you even responding to a media report if it was so dubious ?

Hard to find the footage due to copyright.. but look here:

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/...ngland-2nd-T20I-england-in-india-t20i-series/

Bumrah to Root, OUT, appeal for lbw, and that's a wicket that will breathe life into the Indian cmap. Looked like an optimistic appeal but the umpire raised the finger quickly. Root tried to pull across the line when he could have simply tucked it to the leg side. Looks like there was an inside-edge. Root unlucky
JE Root lbw b Bumrah 38 (82m 38b 2x4 0x6) SR: 100.00

don't think there was any DRS for T20s

Tusker · Oct 17, 2017

[MENTION=129939]wrongun[/MENTION] how is that search for a Testmatch where numerous umpiring decisions went against Aus working out so far ?

wrongun · Oct 21, 2017

Tusker said:
[MENTION=129939]wrongun[/MENTION] how is that search for a Testmatch where numerous umpiring decisions went against Aus working out so far ?

It's not. Your position is ridiculous.

How is the search for umpiring errors in the 82/83 series WI vs India going? You are yet to disprove my theory that WI dominance was caused entirely by umpiring errors.

jeetu · Oct 21, 2017

WI 's 80's ODI team was good but not great. They were better ODI side in 70's. Their peak was probably 1979 WC.
In 80's WI team failed at big stage consistently.
WI in 83 lost Finals to India. Lost to Pakistan in B&H Series (85)in Semi finals. Fail to qualify for Semi Final spot 87 WC.

ask_analyse_act · Oct 21, 2017

West Indies and Australia were highly domianant on their peaks for a longer stretch . India and Pakistan are not a match. They can be second to them

khurram39 · Oct 21, 2017

when ever a team has its combination for a longer period of time they emerge as a good team.

Comparing current batsman with older bowler looks like a kind of joke as they are playing on a fairly flat pitches.
comparison of Warne and Miandad is interesting as both were ATG but i think Miandad plays spin really well and undoubtedly Warne is under pressure.

austerlitz · Oct 21, 2017

These guys are delusional.Nothing comes close to west indies.
Between 1980 and 1995 they didn't lose a single test series home or away with several 5-0 results.Unbeaten 15 years.No team will ever beat that.If you stretch it back to 1976 -80 they only lost 1 tests series in new zealand 1-0 where they basically threw the test matches in protests of cheating umpires.

Australia between 96 and 2007 lost 3 away series to India(98,2001,07-08),one ashes to england and one away to sri lanka.Don't see how this is comparable.

Leave alone pakistan and india,nowhere close.They take pride in being able to draw series abroad.

Abdullah719 · Oct 21, 2017

austerlitz said:
These guys are delusional.Nothing comes close to west indies.
Between 1980 and 1995 they didn't lose a single test series home or away with several 5-0 results.Unbeaten 15 years.No team will ever beat that.If you stretch it back to 1976 -80 they only lost 1 tests series in new zealand 1-0 where they basically threw the test matches in protests of cheating umpires.

Australia between 96 and 2007 lost 3 away series to India(98,2001,07-08),one ashes to england and one away to sri lanka.Don't see how this is comparable.

Leave alone pakistan and india,nowhere close.They take pride in being able to draw series abroad.

I think you missed the ODIs part of the title

Usman Chadda · Oct 21, 2017

India of 2010s and Pakistan of 90s should never be mentioned in the same breath as the two other teams. Both are akin to a minnow when compared with two of the most dominant cricket teams im the history of cricket.

austerlitz · Oct 21, 2017

Abdullah719 said:
I think you missed the ODIs part of the title

Oops.:3dbiggrin But i would still say its a toss up between west indies early 1980s and australia early 2000s,australia having a chance only because of warne.

tandapanii · Oct 21, 2017

TheNightWatchman said:
Who would win in a hypothetical tournament between the 4. Yes, India and Pakistan probably aren't as unbeatable like WI and Aus were but they were still one of the best teams in their respective generations.

Also Bonus. Who would be the top 5 bowlers and batsmen altogether from these teams. And (Who would win golden bat and golden ball in this hypothetical tournament)

Also just to make this more fun. Who would win these contests
Imran vs Dhoni
Wasim vs Kohli
McGrath vs Viv
Marshall vs Sehwag
Warne vs Miandad

Dhoni and Kohli would be bunnies.

Viv would eat up McGraths 80mph deliveries under modern rules and boundary sizes.

Marshall makes a mockery of flat track Sehwag and Miandad cant get a sr above 60 against Warne.

Honestly, the Aussie ODI side from 99-03 was THE BEST EVER. They would, in say, a 5 match series, beat the teams from anywhere between 3-2 to 5-0. I've never seen a team like that before or since.

Tusker · Oct 21, 2017

wrongun said:
It's not. Your position is ridiculous.

You don't even understand my position. For instance .... I don't claim all great teams mentioned in the title of this thread benefited from umpiring. However Aus of 00s did benefit which you deny on the grounds that Aus also suffered from umpiring decisions in that decade. As far as I know there is no equal to the Bluru and SCG tests in terms of poor umpiring. So the question of looking at 80s test matches does not even arise.

Anyhow I did not follow the WI of 80s and I know for sure that the Indian team definitely does not benefit from umpires.

austerlitz · Oct 21, 2017

tandapanii said:
Dhoni and Kohli would be bunnies.

Viv would eat up McGraths 80mph deliveries under modern rules and boundary sizes.

Marshall makes a mockery of flat track Sehwag and Miandad cant get a sr above 60 against Warne.

Honestly, the Aussie ODI side from 99-03 was THE BEST EVER. They would, in say, a 5 match series, beat the teams from anywhere between 3-2 to 5-0. I've never seen a team like that before or since.

Best ever would face Roberts- holding -marshall - garner.Australia was humiliated by ambrose(an aging one) several times.Wonder what will happen when they face 4.I remember ambrose making hayden look like a nightwatchman.
Greenidge,haynes,richards,lloyd,kallicharan/richardson,gomes/rowe,dujon is a brute force in batting too.

Tusker · Oct 21, 2017

austerlitz said:
Best ever would face Roberts- holding -marshall - garner.Australia was humiliated by ambrose(an aging one) several times.Wonder what will happen when they face 4.I remember ambrose making hayden look like a nightwatchman.
Greenidge,haynes,richards,lloyd,kallicharan/richardson,gomes/rowe,dujon is a brute force in batting too.

You need to realize that other teams have closed the gap in terms of ability to play fast bowling. Back then very few batsmen knew how to play fast bowling. Roberts, Holding and Co will not have the same success bowling to the current day batsmen as they did back in their days. And its not like these were extraordinarily fast bowlers like some old posters like them to paint.

Tusker · Oct 21, 2017

austerlitz said:
Watch some videos of robelinda2 with full match highlights of that era in youtube.Watch fire in babylon movie.West indies deserved their reputation.Even in modern era i remember curtly ambrose as a terror.

I have watched plenty of WI footage from the 80s. Nothing remotely comes close to Johnson, Brett Lee, Bond, Akhtar , Starc, and even peak Steyn.

austerlitz · Oct 21, 2017

Tusker said:
You need to realize that other teams have closed the gap in terms of ability to play fast bowling. Back then very few batsmen knew how to play fast bowling. Roberts, Holding and Co will not have the same success bowling to the current day batsmen as they did back in their days. And its not like these were extraordinarily fast bowlers like some old posters like them to paint.

Go watch the videos on youtube of garner,marshall,roberts and holding.Uploaders robelinda2 and 172Allrounder721,and from the vault videos from cricket.au.Some truly unplayable stuff.

Like i said,curtly ambrose the last west indian great pace bowler even at the latter half of his career with his pace reduced was making hayden look like a club batsman.What you have to understand is that kallis,sangakkara,dravid,sehwag,hayden and ponting made the bulk of their runs post 2000.Pitches flatter and bowling attacks much much weaker.No walsh-ambrose-bishop,no wasim-waqar,no donald-pollock at peak ,aussies never had to face mcgrath,only an inconsistent shoaib.That is why the 2 main 90s decade great batsmen - tendulkar and lara are always a level above these 2000s era greats.

Ambrose was a more menacing version of mcgrath.Watch some of micahel holding's spells in 1980-81 and 1976 england.Imran khan said on live interview he fled to the other end to avoid facing michael holding and how andy roberts almost killed him.Malcolm marshall is universally regarded as the greatest fast bowler ever - this by wasim akram and several others.He and roberts ended several careers and shortened many more,and batsmen wearing helmets for that matter.Just watch some of garner's spells to greg chappell - the best batsman of 70s and 80s along with gavaskar and richards.

austerlitz · Oct 21, 2017

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ah524EPXxo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKKEgM41y2I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpYQNOEGQus
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-f5pfBgpNE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMmKSR2Pfes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xq3TlmNFeYM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EP8grMGB_WY

austerlitz · Oct 21, 2017

Tusker · Oct 21, 2017

austerlitz said:
Go watch the videos on youtube of garner,marshall,roberts and holding.Uploaders robelinda2 and 172Allrounder721,and from the vault videos from cricket.au.Some truly unplayable stuff.

See my other post above.

Like i said,curtly ambrose the last west indian great pace bowler even at the latter half of his career with his pace reduced was making hayden look like a club batsman.What you have to understand is that kallis,sangakkara,dravid,sehwag,hayden and ponting made the bulk of their runs post 2000.Pitches flatter and bowling attacks much much weaker.No walsh-ambrose-bishop,no wasim-waqar,no donald-pollock at peak ,aussies never had to face mcgrath,only an inconsistent shoaib.That is why the 2 main 90s decade great batsmen - tendulkar and lara are always a level above these 2000s era greats.

This only proves that Steyn is the greatest ever bowler. For a better explanation see [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION]s post here : http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...an-in-the-last-15-years&p=9478468#post9478468

Ambrose was a more menacing version of mcgrath.Watch some of micahel holding's spells in 1980-81 and 1976 england.Imran khan said on live interview he fled to the other end to avoid facing michael holding and how andy roberts almost killed him.Malcolm marshall is universally regarded as the greatest fast bowler ever - this by wasim akram and several others.He and roberts ended several careers and shortened many more,and batsmen wearing helmets for that matter.Just watch some of garner's spells to greg chappell - the best batsman of 70s and 80s along with gavaskar and richards.

please post the videos that you are talking about as I might have missed it.

austerlitz · Oct 21, 2017

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eL2KADkPQYM

Tusker · Oct 21, 2017

austerlitz said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ah524EPXxo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKKEgM41y2I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpYQNOEGQus
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-f5pfBgpNE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMmKSR2Pfes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xq3TlmNFeYM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EP8grMGB_WY

Thanks. Pick one of this which is the best according to you ... don't have enough time on hand right now to go thru all of them.

austerlitz · Oct 21, 2017

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4LKGnXJi2E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAXNm1ysuOA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtDcuGh1RdA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuszoyG7nSY

Tusker · Oct 21, 2017

austerlitz said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4LKGnXJi2E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAXNm1ysuOA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtDcuGh1RdA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuszoyG7nSY

Pick ONE which is the best of the lot in your opinion.

austerlitz · Oct 21, 2017

Tusker said:
Thanks. Pick one of this which is the best according to you ... don't have enough time on hand right now to go thru all of them.

Fine.Take your pick.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ah524EPXxo
Garner humiliates greg chapell.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKKEgM41y2I
Hospitalize with bouncers collection.(not very imp in this context)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpYQNOEGQus
Holding humiliates Botham at his peak and then sends him packing with tail between his legs 1981

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-f5pfBgpNE
Holding terrorizes England 1976

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMmKSR2Pfes
Holding vs australia 1979 - short glimpses

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xq3TlmNFeYM
Andy Roberts sets up chapell brotehrs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EP8grMGB_WY
Andy Roberts humiliates england captain Greig.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yG0zHieeXqw
Roberts crushes england.

More ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4LKGnXJi2E
ODI bowling montage -
Roberts humiliates border.Dismissals of Miandad,imran,chapell etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAXNm1ysuOA
Walsh and Bishop rough up robin smith.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtDcuGh1RdA
Unplayable Joel garner

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuszoyG7nSY
Joel garner big ODI montage.

And i haven't even started on Marshall or Amrose - the 2 deadliest.

Tusker · Oct 21, 2017

austerlitz said:
Fine.Take your pick.

Don't have the time to look thru all and pick which is why asked you to pick one that is best according to you ... however Here is one from the current era :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1CMFxm5rhk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8lPgYN61QM

Let me know anything that comes remotely close to that from your list never mind Akhtar, Bond, BLee, Steyn who have even better bowling spells.

austerlitz · Oct 21, 2017

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nol94jVqCXk
Imran describing how he ran from Michael holding to the other end.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKgVoEapWC0
Holding greatest ever over to boycott.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pp5VF9MkKuw
Croft and Holding Montage

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIFGOCGfGY8
Ambrose collection.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4e6k8_oAJk
Ambrose annihilates australia of early 90s.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGByGXHxXc0
Pakistan of early 90s all out 43 in ODI vs declining west indies.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMnVflwc13k
Ambrose destroys Australia mid 90s.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=re3UpUjnM58
Ambrose montage.

austerlitz · Oct 21, 2017

Tusker said:
Don't have the time to look thru all and pick which is why asked you to pick one that is best according to you ... however Here is one from the current era :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1CMFxm5rhk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8lPgYN61QM

Let me know anything that comes remotely close to that from your list never mind Akhtar, Bond, BLee, Steyn who have even better bowling spells.

What you showed me is one bowler at his all time peak in one series.Now imagine 4 bowlers like this all day year after year.Take any of the videos i picked,doesnt make a difference.Mitchell johnson is a baby compared to these giants.

austerlitz · Oct 21, 2017

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntqfr2zfIRg
An old marshall destroys england 1988

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUDQimDIU6k
Malcolm marshall collection(great vid)

Tusker · Oct 21, 2017

austerlitz said:
What you showed me is one bowler at his all time peak in one series.Now imagine 4 bowlers like this all day year after year.

Peter Siddle and Ryan Harris who were the other 2 bowlers bowl just as fast as Roberts, Marshall, Ambrose etc ... just that they don't have the OTT hype to go with it because it is much much harder to dominate batsmen now than it was for the WI fast bowlers. Things have changed drastically if you havent noticed.

Take any of the videos i picked,doesnt make a difference.Mitchell johnson is a baby compared to these giants.

your wish ... so tell me how this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ah524EPXxo
is so faar better than the Johnson video I posted above. Joel Garner is a baby compared to Johnson when it comes to measured pace (and not pace as described thru words) . Go do a frame by frame comparison of those two videos and you will see why.

austerlitz · Oct 21, 2017

Tusker said:
Peter Siddle and Ryan Harris who were the other 2 bowlers bowl just as fast as Roberts, Marshall, Ambrose etc ... just that they don't have the OTT hype to go with it because it is much much harder to dominate batsmen now than it was for the WI fast bowlers. Things have changed drastically if you havent noticed.

your wish ... so tell me how this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ah524EPXxo
is so faar better than the Johnson video I posted above. Joel Garner is a baby compared to Johnson when it comes to measured pace (and not pace as described thru words) . Go do a frame by frame comparison of those two videos and you will see why.

Joel garner was the slowest of the 4 horsemen of the WI and known for his awkward bounce and yorkers and extremely miserly economy rate.Mitch still isn't a match for him.Waay too inconsistent and on most days just a sprayer.You really comparing siddle and harris with the west indian quicks......

austerlitz · Oct 21, 2017

Tusker said:
Peter Siddle and Ryan Harris who were the other 2 bowlers bowl just as fast as Roberts, Marshall, Ambrose etc ... just that they don't have the OTT hype to go with it because it is much much harder to dominate batsmen now than it was for the WI fast bowlers. Things have changed drastically if you havent noticed.

your wish ... so tell me how this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ah524EPXxo
is so faar better than the Johnson video I posted above. Joel Garner is a baby compared to Johnson when it comes to measured pace (and not pace as described thru words) . Go do a frame by frame comparison of those two videos and you will see why.

You want pace?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-f5pfBgpNE
Holding terrorizes England 1976

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpYQNOEGQus
Holding humiliates Botham at his peak and then sends him packing with tail between his legs 1981

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKgVoEapWC0
Holding greatest ever over to boycott.

Roberts too is 150-155.

Tusker · Oct 21, 2017

austerlitz said:
You want pace?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-f5pfBgpNE
Holding terrorizes England 1976

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpYQNOEGQus
Holding humiliates Botham at his peak and then sends him packing with tail between his legs 1981

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKgVoEapWC0
Holding greatest ever over to boycott.

Roberts too is 150-155.

Holdings recorded pace ( again this is not to be confused with pace as described in various verbal certificates of achievement which you are probably referring to ) is in the low 140s.

Evidence: https://youtu.be/bPDW7hj1yfs?t=11m52s

There is no reliable evidence of Roberts having bowled above 150K's you can find Roberts Top speed in that same video above at 138.6K's

Whats so earth shatteringly great about this NOW ? Yes it used to be in the 70s but we are now in 2017

austerlitz · Oct 21, 2017

Tusker said:
Holdings recorded pace ( again this is not to be confused with pace as described in various verbal certificates of achievement which you are probably referring to ) is in the low 140s.

Evidence: https://youtu.be/bPDW7hj1yfs?t=11m52s

There is no reliable evidence of Roberts having bowled above 150K's you can find Roberts Top speed in that same video above at 138.6K's

Whats so earth shatteringly great about this NOW ? Yes it used to be in the 70s but we are now in 2017

Do you even understand the difference between a modern speed gun which records the speed out of the bowlers hand and that tests cameras which record it of the pitch.Off the pitch the speed is reduced by 10-15% depending on how fast or slow the pitch is.So add that percentage to 138.5 and you get an approximate to the mdoern estimate.Above 150 kph.

Tusker · Oct 21, 2017

austerlitz said:
Do you even understand the difference between a modern speed gun which records the speed out of the bowlers hand and that tests cameras which record it of the pitch.Off the pitch the speed is reduced by 10-15% depending on how fast or slow the pitch is.So add that percentage to 138.5 and you get an approximate to the mdoern estimate.Above 150 kph.

This is one of the most notorious urban myths propagated by Thommo ... none of the speed measurements in that video I posted were measured in that manner. This has been confirmed by the people who actually did those measurements.

Otherwise you will have Thommos speed well in excess of 170Ks which only baseball pitchers can manage (even that is rare)

austerlitz · Oct 21, 2017

Tusker said:
This is one of the most notorious urban myths propagated by Thommo ... none of the speed measurements in that video I posted were measured in that manner. This has been confirmed by the people who actually did those measurements.

Otherwise you will have Thommos speed well in excess of 170Ks which only baseball pitchers can manage (even that is rare)

Its not an urba myth and yes,thomson was the fastest in history.If you see some of his deliveries due to his weird action and rugby player physique he was able to hurl them at tremendous pace.If you look at michael holding's bowling videos(the ones i posted) and you try and tell me that is the pace of a ryan harris or hardik pandya,i'm sorry the joke's on you.I can clearly see the difference in videos myself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cukAdBEpMs
You seriously trying to tell me this guy is mid 140s?Lol.

Proactive_ · Oct 22, 2017

Ok so I open the thread and to my absolute shock (not), see [MENTION=134300]Tusker[/MENTION] once again trying to discredit anything not to do with today's generation. Marshall as fast as Peter Siddle? Try telling Sunil Gavaskar that, who almost had his helmet blown away by a Malcolm Marshall bouncer on a slow Kanpur deck in 1983, and this is Sunil Gavaskar we're talking about, someone who is regarded by the likes of Wasim Akram as the best batsman he ever bowled to and Wasim bowled well into the 21th century. This mindset that anything and everything that happened before the era of 300 high resolution cameras doesn't hold a candle to today's era is beyond asinine and highly ignorant.

Tusker · Oct 22, 2017

austerlitz said:
Its not an urba myth and yes,thomson was the fastest in history.If you see some of his deliveries due to his weird action and rugby player physique he was able to hurl them at tremendous pace.If you look at michael holding's bowling videos(the ones i posted) and you try and tell me that is the pace of a ryan harris or hardik pandya,i'm sorry the joke's on you.I can clearly see the difference in videos myself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cukAdBEpMs
You seriously trying to tell me this guy is mid 140s?Lol.

So you actually believe that Thommo's release speed is in the mid 170K's similar to baseball speeds ? Seriously ?

And yes it is definitely a urban myth:

See Post# 52 on this thread:
http://www.cricketweb.net/forum/cri...-over-ever-bowled-test-cricket-history-4.html

If you still don't believe go take a closer look at that footage of fast bowler competition ... the screen with the mesh is only at the bowlers end. If you still dont believe then go do a frame-by-frame comparison between the Michael Holding 141Ks delivery with any measure 141Ks from current era. If your claim that the speeds were measured at batsmans end is true then the Michael Holding delivery will win by a significant and noticeable margin.

Tusker · Oct 22, 2017

Proactive_ said:
Ok so I open the thread and to my absolute shock (not), see [MENTION=134300]Tusker[/MENTION] once again trying to discredit anything not to do with today's generation. .

Just like the Aussies and umpiring discussion above in this thread from which you ran away ?

austerlitz · Oct 22, 2017

Tusker said:
So you actually believe that Thommo's release speed is in the mid 170K's similar to baseball speeds ? Seriously ?

And yes it is definitely a urban myth:

See Post# 52 on this thread:
http://www.cricketweb.net/forum/cri...-over-ever-bowled-test-cricket-history-4.html

If you still don't believe go take a closer look at that footage of fast bowler competition ... the screen with the mesh is only at the bowlers end. If you still dont believe then go do a frame-by-frame comparison between the Michael Holding 141Ks delivery with any measure 141Ks from current era. If your claim that the speeds were measured at batsmans end is true then the Michael Holding delivery will win by a significant and noticeable margin.

If you are telling me that thomson was bowling 140s when the ball was whizzing past the batsman before he could even get the bat up,one ball went over his head one bounced the boundary.Right that was hardik pandya pace.Only delusional people would say that.The speed gun of today uses totally different methods than earlier,there is no comparison.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKgVoEapWC0
This michael holding is hardik pandya pace.Just look at the distance the stumps cartwheeled to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nol94jVqCXk
This is imran khan who admits openly he fled before michael holding.He saw waqar and wasim at their peak.I guess he was lying.But ofcourse you know better than imran khan.

austerlitz · Oct 22, 2017

By the results of that test,andy roberts and dennis lillee were slower than bhubaneshwar kumar.Just 125-135 kph trundlers.They were irfan pathan level bowlers.

Tusker · Oct 22, 2017

austerlitz said:
If you are telling me that thomson was bowling 140s when the ball was whizzing past the batsman before he could even get the bat up,one ball went over his head one bounced the boundary.Right that was hardik pandya pace.Only delusional people would say that.The speed gun of today uses totally different methods than earlier,there is no comparison.

Since you completely ignored all the facts I mentioned in my previous post I take it that you are not really interested in a proper fact based discussion ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKgVoEapWC0
This michael holding is hardik pandya pace.Just look at the distance the stumps cartwheeled to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nol94jVqCXk
This is imran khan who admits openly he fled before michael holding.He saw waqar and wasim at their peak.I guess he was lying.But ofcourse you know better than imran khan.

If only I had a dollar for every old **** who goes "omg I kept/faced/watched him bowl and I swear it broke the speed of sound" type claims. :facepalm:

They may believe them but it's the typical "back in my day, we swam upriver both ways with crocodiles for company" type claims. It seems ludicrous to say that every sport has people running faster, jumping higher, hitting harder and pitching faster but In The Golden Age of Cricket the men were men and batsmen hit bouncers for four with a straight bat while blindfolded off front foot no less.

But in any case all of the claims are irrelevant because we actually have measured data and decent footage to judge using our own eyes ( and most importantly brain !!) so it's not a matter of "belief" anymore. But hey, people still believe that the moon landing was fake so data is clearly not enough in some people's eyes and ofcourse there is place for alternate facts.

Tusker · Oct 22, 2017

austerlitz said:
By the results of that test,andy roberts and dennis lillee were slower than bhubaneshwar kumar.Just 125-135 kph trundlers.They were irfan pathan level bowlers.

BTW the fact about speeds measured being release speeds in that 1978/79 speed measurement video I posed is in that video itself at about 15:00

https://youtu.be/uRlyFVCLOr4?t=14m55s

after Wayne Daniel bowls a full toss the guy who is commentating on the tests says : "lovely style a full toss ... still it is the speed that it leaves the hand that counts so lets just have a look and find out just how fast it did leave Wayne Daniels hand ... 123.6 "

austerlitz · Oct 22, 2017

Tusker said:
BTW the fact about speeds measured being release speeds in that 1978/79 speed measurement video I posed is in that video itself at about 15:00

https://youtu.be/uRlyFVCLOr4?t=14m55s

after Wayne Daniel bowls a full toss the guy who is commentating on the tests says : "lovely style a full toss ... still it is the speed that it leaves the hand that counts so lets just have a look and find out just how fast it did leave Wayne Daniels hand ... 123.6 "

That speed measurement is different method,see the imran video .Jeff thomson even confirms it.You ahve no answers,i doubt you saw any of the videos and seem to know better than imran khan or basically all the cricket legends you witnessed all eras.Are you really telling me bhuvi kumar/irfan pathan are faster than andy roberts and dennis lillee because they had 'better diet' lolz.

The data is NOT measured in the same way.The old equipment is not used these days because it was unreliable.

I will ask you again -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-f5pfBgpNE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cukAdBEpMs

Does this look like hardik pandya pace?And do watch the videos before commenting.If you don't have time again,don't bother to continue discussion.

Proactive_ · Oct 22, 2017

Tusker said:
Just like the Aussies and umpiring discussion above in this thread from which you ran away ?

Then what would you call your Houndini act in the Kohli thread? Still waiting for the reply to the "rest of the post"

Anyway on a serious note, you didn't provide any reasonable explanation as to why the umpires would have specifically favored Australians over any other team at all times. Your best argument is your intuition which you can't back up. Same with this one. Marshall as fast as Peter Siddle? Still laughing from that one.

tandapanii · Oct 22, 2017

austerlitz said:
Best ever would face Roberts- holding -marshall - garner.Australia was humiliated by ambrose(an aging one) several times.Wonder what will happen when they face 4.I remember ambrose making hayden look like a nightwatchman.
Greenidge,haynes,richards,lloyd,kallicharan/richardson,gomes/rowe,dujon is a brute force in batting too.

In the time period I mentioned Ambrose had one truly stand out test match against the Aussies...and the Windies still lost by a considerable margin.

Plus, in what team would AMbrose be playing alongside Holding and Marshall, as well as Lloyd? When did he bowl with Roberts?

This discussion is not based on a scenario when you can pick and choose the best players across generations and make a team, it is one based on actual time periods. Ambrose played well after Holding and Roberts had retired. You also mentioned Alvin, who only averaged 20 odd in the 1980s and only played one season of test cricket in that time. He is supposed to cause problems to Warne and McGrath?

austerlitz · Oct 22, 2017

tandapanii said:
In the time period I mentioned Ambrose had one truly stand out test match against the Aussies...and the Windies still lost by a considerable margin.

Plus, in what team would AMbrose be playing alongside Holding and Marshall, as well as Lloyd? When did he bowl with Roberts?

This discussion is not based on a scenario when you can pick and choose the best players across generations and make a team, it is one based on actual time periods. Ambrose played well after Holding and Roberts had retired. You also mentioned Alvin, who only averaged 20 odd in the 1980s and only played one season of test cricket in that time. He is supposed to cause problems to Warne and McGrath?

Ambrose came into side 1988.His peak upto 1994-95 when he had pace.Well the attacks are either
Roberts -Holding -Garner- Croft
Roberts- Marshall -Garner -Holding
Marshall - Holding -Garner - Walsh
Marshall -Ambrose- Walsh - Bishop/Patterson

Kallicharan averages 45 in tests.He retired in 1981.So he comes into the equation if u take late 1970s West Indies.From 1983-84 you have Richie richardson who was a gun batsman if you go for 80s.
With the big four - Greenidge,Haynes,Richards,Lloyd.Plus Larry gomes as grafter and Dujon.And hooper coming in from 1987.But Windies peak was probably late 70s to 1988-89 when garner and holding retired - though initially their absence wasn't felt due to bishop and patterson.Its only when patterson went awry after a couple of years and bishop injury that windies got restricted to walsh and ambrose and lost their pace quartet.

tandapanii · Oct 22, 2017

austerlitz said:
Ambrose came into side 1988.His peak upto 1994-95 when he had pace.Well the attacks are either
Roberts -Holding -Garner- Croft
Roberts- Marshall -Garner -Holding
Marshall - Holding -Garner - Walsh
Marshall -Ambrose- Walsh - Bishop/Patterson

Kallicharan averages 45 in tests.He retired in 1981.So he comes into the equation if u take late 1970s West Indies.From 1983-84 you have Richie richardson who was a gun batsman if you go for 80s.
With the big four - Greenidge,Haynes,Richards,Lloyd.Plus Larry gomes as grafter and Dujon.And hooper coming in from 1987.But Windies peak was probably late 70s to 1988-89 when garner and holding retired - though initially their absence wasn't felt due to bishop and patterson.Its only when patterson went awry after a couple of years and bishop injury that windies got restricted to walsh and ambrose and lost their pace quartet.

The thread is west Indies of the 80s, not of the mid 70s. Kali averaged 22 in the one year he played in the 80s and was clearly past his best.

The West Indies would certainly have a very good bowling attack, no doubt which is what would make it a close series. It's all opinion. I give the edge to Australia, who had a better all round attack and great batsmen from 1 all teh way down to wherever Gilly would bat.

austerlitz · Oct 22, 2017

tandapanii said:
The thread is west Indies of the 80s, not of the mid 70s. Kali averaged 22 in the one year he played in the 80s and was clearly past his best.

The West Indies would certainly have a very good bowling attack, no doubt which is what would make it a close series. It's all opinion. I give the edge to Australia, who had a better all round attack and great batsmen from 1 all teh way down to wherever Gilly would bat.

Australian batting is slightly better.Bowling NOT even close.West Indies won everything everywhere including subcontinent.Australia ATG team lost thrice in subcontinent in 10 years.

DRsohail · Oct 22, 2017

WI
aus

india
pakistan.

tandapanii · Oct 22, 2017

austerlitz said:
Australian batting is slightly better.Bowling NOT even close.West Indies won everything everywhere including subcontinent.Australia ATG team lost thrice in subcontinent in 10 years.

India werent as good in that time and WI went life and death with Pakistan twice and should have lost the series in their own backyard if it wasnt for home umpiring, as alluded to by Lara himself lol

In the time we're looking at, the early 2000s, so roughly 2000-2005, Australia lost once to India, drew one and won one. They also beat SL and Pak home and away. Don't see where they were thrashed 3 times ?

austerlitz · Oct 22, 2017

tandapanii said:
India werent as good in that time and WI went life and death with Pakistan twice and should have lost the series in their own backyard if it wasnt for home umpiring, as alluded to by Lara himself lol

In the time we're looking at, the early 2000s, so roughly 2000-2005, Australia lost once to India, drew one and won one. They also beat SL and Pak home and away. Don't see where they were thrashed 3 times ?

That was after roberts,garner and holding retired and marshall missed half the series.Richards was also in decline.Lloyd was gone.Australia also lost to Sl away in 2001.
Lost to India 98,2001,08.

Abdullah719 · Oct 22, 2017

austerlitz said:
Australian batting is slightly better.Bowling NOT even close.West Indies won everything everywhere including subcontinent.Australia ATG team lost thrice in subcontinent in 10 years.

Australia of the 2000s didn't lose any ODI series in Asia.

Thread is about ODIs.

austerlitz · Oct 22, 2017

Abdullah719 said:
Australia of the 2000s didn't lose any ODI series in Asia.

Thread is about ODIs.

He was talking tests.

Abdullah719 · Oct 22, 2017

austerlitz said:
He was talking tests.

Yeah just putting a reminder that the thread is about ODIs....

austerlitz · Oct 22, 2017

Abdullah719 said:
Australia of the 2000s didn't lose any ODI series in Asia.

Thread is about ODIs.

Neither did west indies of early 80s.Beat us 5-0 just after wc 1983 in India in ODIs.

tandapanii · Oct 22, 2017

Abdullah719 said:
Australia of the 2000s didn't lose any ODI series in Asia.

Thread is about ODIs.

This guy distracted me from the ODI point, thanks for reminding me lol

Tusker · Oct 22, 2017

austerlitz said:
That speed measurement is different method,see the imran video .Jeff thomson even confirms it.You ahve no answers,i doubt you saw any of the videos and seem to know better than imran khan or basically all the cricket legends you witnessed all eras.Are you really telling me bhuvi kumar/irfan pathan are faster than andy roberts and dennis lillee because they had 'better diet' lolz.

The data is NOT measured in the same way.The old equipment is not used these days because it was unreliable.

I have clearly told you many times in this thread that Iam not interested in verbal certificates. You can post as many peurile posts along the lines of "ohhh look he is questioning the great khan saab" and what have you. They are not an authority on speed measurements and the technology used. So if you want to continue this discussion you have a choice to make. Either stick to measured speeds or move on as Iam not interested in speeds from verbal statements that are dime a dozen with no scientific backing.

Are you now saying that the speed measured in that speed measurement video is not accurate ?

This is the video clip Iam talking about just to be clear: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPDW7hj1yfs

So please confirm.

And lol at quoting Thommo .. Seriously ? Where do you live ? Wherever it is do they allow you to certify your own achievements :))

) laughable.

I will ask you again -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-f5pfBgpNE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cukAdBEpMs

Does this look like hardik pandya pace?And do watch the videos before commenting.If you don't have time again,don't bother to continue discussion.

I have watched those videos and it is quick but not like some ridiculous speeds that few people here like to claim. And you seem to think that speed can only be achieved by players of certain nationalities ?

Tusker · Oct 22, 2017

Proactive_ said:
Then what would you call your Houndini act in the Kohli thread? Still waiting for the reply to the "rest of the post"

Not sure which Kohli thread you are talking about. Post a link and I will respond.

Anyway on a serious note, you didn't provide any reasonable explanation as to why the umpires would have specifically favored Australians over any other team at all times..

I would have to get into Bucknors and Bowdens heads for that isn't it ? Bottomline is the data conclusively proves that Aus benefited from these umpires especially when India was involved. You have no case here to prove otherwise.

Proactive_ · Oct 22, 2017

Tusker said:
Not sure which Kohli thread you are talking about. Post a link and I will respond.

I would have to get into Bucknors and Bowdens heads for that isn't it ? Bottomline is the data conclusively proves that Aus benefited from these umpires especially when India was involved. You have no case here to prove otherwise.

Where is the data?

Tusker · Oct 22, 2017

Proactive_ said:
Where is the data?

Ehh ? didnt I post a link above on how India got mugged? Didnt Bucknor get fired after SCG ? Let me assure it was not for sexual harrasment. Do you live in a parallel world or what.

Proactive_ · Oct 22, 2017

Tusker said:
Ehh ? didnt I post a link above on how India got mugged? Didnt Bucknor get fired after SCG ? Let me assure it was not for sexual harrasment. Do you live in a parallel world or what.

That is not data unless you have a radically different definition of what data is from the rest of the world. That's one article on one Test matches which doesn't even mention what the "wrong decisions" even were. Bucknor got fired because BCCI threw a hissy fit and threatened to call off the tour. Bullying tactics 101. You'd have to do better than this if you're levying such a serious charge on a cricket team.

Tusker · Oct 22, 2017

Proactive_ said:
That is not data unless you have a radically different definition of what data is from the rest of the world. That's one article on one Test matches which doesn't even mention what the "wrong decisions" even were.

Why don't you prove that the article was wrong and imaginary ? Remember I already posted video clips of two of those decisions.

Bucknor got fired because BCCI threw a hissy fit and threatened to call off the tour. Bullying tactics 101. You'd have to do better than this if you're levying such a serious charge on a cricket team.

And it had nothing to do with him having repeatedly mugged India right ? Even the extremely biased Ian healy on commentary couldnt help notice the muggery. Again what world do you live in where you were told Bucknor did no wrong. Are you sesriously suggesting that SCG test was officiated fairly ? Arguing for the sake of arguing much ?

Proactive_ · Oct 22, 2017

Tusker said:
Why don't you prove that the article was wrong and imaginary ? Remember I already posted video clips of two of those decisions.

Why don't you bring to light what the 7 decisions that the article talks about actually were? Or better, why don't you bring to light some actual "Data" that you claim somehow "proves" that Australia were always helped by umpires?

And it had nothing to do with him having repeatedly mugged India right ? Even the extremely biased Ian healy on commentary couldnt help notice the muggery. Again what world do you live in where you were told Bucknor did no wrong. Are you sesriously suggesting that SCG test was officiated fairly ? Arguing for the sake of arguing much ?

I'm telling you like it is. Any other board other than BCCI and Bucknow would have stayed. BCCI is a bully and wouldn't have played if it didn't get things it's way. Remember the Mike Denness S.A 2000 incident? Fairly or unfairly can also be established if some conclusive evidence come to light that Bucknow was in cahoots with Australia, nothing of this sort has ever come to light.

Also, how about you give your thoughts on this Bucknor decision:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_sHtNRL5q8

Must have been paid by the BCCI, ain't it?

austerlitz · Oct 22, 2017

Tusker said:
I have clearly told you many times in this thread that Iam not interested in verbal certificates. You can post as many peurile posts along the lines of "ohhh look he is questioning the great khan saab" and what have you. They are not an authority on speed measurements and the technology used. So if you want to continue this discussion you have a choice to make. Either stick to measured speeds or move on as Iam not interested in speeds from verbal statements that are dime a dozen with no scientific backing.

Are you now saying that the speed measured in that speed measurement video is not accurate ?

This is the video clip Iam talking about just to be clear: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPDW7hj1yfs

So please confirm.

And lol at quoting Thommo .. Seriously ? Where do you live ? Wherever it is do they allow you to certify your own achievements ) laughable.

I have watched those videos and it is quick but not like some ridiculous speeds that few people here like to claim. And you seem to think that speed can only be achieved by players of certain nationalities ?

Yes,its not that the video is false.But the measurement methods were different,so you cant compare with modern speed gun.And if you have seriously watched the videos your telling me holding is hardik/bumrah pace?

Tusker · Oct 22, 2017

Proactive_ said:
Why don't you bring to light what the 7 decisions that the article talks about actually were? Or better, why don't you bring to light some actual "Data" that you claim somehow "proves" that Australia were always helped by umpires?

So if you don't believe that article that I posted why were you trying to use it to your advantage earlier ? I see you never answered that question. I wonder why. Perhaps desperately trying to wiggle ouut of the proper tangle that you find yourselves in .

I'm telling you like it is. Any other board other than BCCI and Bucknow would have stayed. BCCI is a bully and wouldn't have played if it didn't get things it's way. Remember the Mike Denness S.A 2000 incident? Fairly or unfairly can also be established if some conclusive evidence come to light that Bucknow was in cahoots with Australia, nothing of this sort has ever come to light.

Do you really think ICC is in the business of investigating umpiring blunders? :facepalm:

You might even ask why there wasnt a proper court case to decide based on "proper" evidence. Perhaps its too depressing to see your beloved aussies go down a notch ?

Until DRS came in the Umpires operated like Kings. Absolutely no checks and balances. All rules written or unwritten were in their favor. This is what led to DRS and ironically it was because of Bucknor that we now see a truly fair system (as Tech improves and people understand the futility of fighting against Tech it will totally be a merit based system something you like to crow about all the time ... talk about Irony :))

)

Also, how about you give your thoughts on this Bucknor decision:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_sHtNRL5q8

Must have been paid by the BCCI, ain't it?

This is like saying there is no racism in America because Barrack Obama was elected president twice lol. I never said all decisions made by Bucknor were against India. However Bucknor never even considered contesting his ignominious firing after SCG 2008 which tells me that BCCI were spot on to refuse playing against a gully level 3rd rate umpire.

jeetu · Oct 22, 2017

[table= class: grid, align: center]
[tr][td]Team [/td][td]Span [/td][td]Mat [/td][td]Won [/td][td]Lost [/td][td]Tied [/td][td]NR [/td][td]W/L [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]West Indies [/td][td]1973-1979 [/td][td]23 [/td][td]17 [/td][td]6 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]2.833 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]England [/td][td]1971-1979 [/td][td]46 [/td][td]27 [/td][td]15 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]4 [/td][td]1.8 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Australia [/td][td]1971-1979 [/td][td]31 [/td][td]15 [/td][td]15 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]1 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]New Zealand [/td][td]1973-1979 [/td][td]20 [/td][td]8 [/td][td]9 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]3 [/td][td]0.888 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Pakistan [/td][td]1973-1979 [/td][td]20 [/td][td]8 [/td][td]12 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]0.666 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Sri Lanka [/td][td]1975-1979 [/td][td]5 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]4 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]0.25 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]India [/td][td]1974-1979 [/td][td]13 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]11 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]0.181 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]West Indies [/td][td]1980-1989 [/td][td]170 [/td][td]122 [/td][td]46 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]2.652 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]England [/td][td]1980-1989 [/td][td]120 [/td][td]64 [/td][td]55 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]1.163 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Australia [/td][td]1980-1989 [/td][td]187 [/td][td]91 [/td][td]85 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]9 [/td][td]1.07 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Pakistan [/td][td]1980-1989 [/td][td]162 [/td][td]77 [/td][td]79 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]6 [/td][td]0.974 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]India [/td][td]1980-1989 [/td][td]155 [/td][td]69 [/td][td]80 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]6 [/td][td]0.862 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]New Zealand [/td][td]1980-1989 [/td][td]126 [/td][td]56 [/td][td]66 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]4 [/td][td]0.848 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Sri Lanka [/td][td]1982-1989 [/td][td]95 [/td][td]19 [/td][td]72 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]4 [/td][td]0.263 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Zimbabwe [/td][td]1983-1987 [/td][td]12 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]11 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]0.09 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Bangladesh [/td][td]1986-1988 [/td][td]5 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]5 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]South Africa [/td][td]1991-1999 [/td][td]177 [/td][td]110 [/td][td]61 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]5 [/td][td]1.803 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Australia [/td][td]1990-1999 [/td][td]225 [/td][td]140 [/td][td]81 [/td][td]3 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]1.728 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Pakistan [/td][td]1990-1999 [/td][td]261 [/td][td]146 [/td][td]105 [/td][td]6 [/td][td]4 [/td][td]1.39 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]West Indies [/td][td]1990-1999 [/td][td]195 [/td][td]96 [/td][td]89 [/td][td]4 [/td][td]6 [/td][td]1.078 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]India [/td][td]1990-1999 [/td][td]257 [/td][td]122 [/td][td]120 [/td][td]3 [/td][td]12 [/td][td]1.016 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Sri Lanka [/td][td]1990-1999 [/td][td]217 [/td][td]98 [/td][td]107 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]10 [/td][td]0.915 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]England [/td][td]1990-1999 [/td][td]135 [/td][td]60 [/td][td]70 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]4 [/td][td]0.857 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]New Zealand [/td][td]1990-1999 [/td][td]191 [/td][td]73 [/td][td]105 [/td][td]4 [/td][td]9 [/td][td]0.695 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Zimbabwe [/td][td]1992-1999 [/td][td]126 [/td][td]35 [/td][td]83 [/td][td]4 [/td][td]4 [/td][td]0.421 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Bangladesh [/td][td]1990-1999 [/td][td]32 [/td][td]3 [/td][td]29 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]0.103 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Australia [/td][td]2000-2009 [/td][td]283 [/td][td]202 [/td][td]66 [/td][td]3 [/td][td]12 [/td][td]3.06 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]South Africa [/td][td]2000-2009 [/td][td]254 [/td][td]157 [/td][td]86 [/td][td]4 [/td][td]7 [/td][td]1.825 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Sri Lanka [/td][td]2000-2009 [/td][td]276 [/td][td]155 [/td][td]111 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]9 [/td][td]1.396 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Pakistan [/td][td]2000-2009 [/td][td]267 [/td][td]151 [/td][td]111 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]5 [/td][td]1.36 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]India [/td][td]2000-2009 [/td][td]307 [/td][td]161 [/td][td]130 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]16 [/td][td]1.238 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]New Zealand [/td][td]2000-2009 [/td][td]239 [/td][td]113 [/td][td]111 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]14 [/td][td]1.018 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]England [/td][td]2000-2009 [/td][td]224 [/td][td]100 [/td][td]111 [/td][td]3 [/td][td]10 [/td][td]0.9 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]West Indies [/td][td]2000-2009 [/td][td]232 [/td][td]94 [/td][td]123 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]15 [/td][td]0.764 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Bangladesh [/td][td]2000-2009 [/td][td]174 [/td][td]52 [/td][td]120 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]0.433 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]India [/td][td]2010-2017 [/td][td]196 [/td][td]120 [/td][td]65 [/td][td]4 [/td][td]6 [/td][td]1.846 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]South Africa [/td][td]2010-2017 [/td][td]152 [/td][td]93 [/td][td]53 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]4 [/td][td]1.754 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Australia [/td][td]2010-2017 [/td][td]180 [/td][td]107 [/td][td]61 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]11 [/td][td]1.754 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]England [/td][td]2010-2017 [/td][td]172 [/td][td]92 [/td][td]71 [/td][td]3 [/td][td]6 [/td][td]1.295 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]New Zealand [/td][td]2010-2017 [/td][td]153 [/td][td]73 [/td][td]69 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]9 [/td][td]1.057 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Pakistan [/td][td]2010-2017 [/td][td]173 [/td][td]86 [/td][td]82 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]3 [/td][td]1.048 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Sri Lanka [/td][td]2010-2017 [/td][td]214 [/td][td]99 [/td][td]100 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]13 [/td][td]0.99 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Bangladesh [/td][td]2010-2017 [/td][td]124 [/td][td]50 [/td][td]68 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]5 [/td][td]0.735 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]West Indies [/td][td]2010-2017 [/td][td]147 [/td][td]51 [/td][td]87 [/td][td]4 [/td][td]5 [/td][td]0.586 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Zimbabwe [/td][td]2010-2017 [/td][td]124 [/td][td]35 [/td][td]86 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]0.406 [/td][/tr]
[/table]

West Indies of 80s vs Pakistan of 90s vs Australia of 2000s vs India of 2010s in ODIs

First Class Captain

Local Club Star

Local Club Regular

Senior Test Player

Tape Ball Regular

Hall of Famer

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ODI Captain

Local Club Regular

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Local Club Regular

First Class Captain

First Class Captain

Post of the Week Winner

PPCL Hall of Famer

ODI Debutant

Tape Ball Star

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Senior T20I Player

Tape Ball Star

Debutant

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ODI Debutant

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