What could have been acceptable was turned into a questionable extreme

[Titan24]

As I have always said that win and loss is part of any sport. Ratio of that depends upon the overall systems and necessary support in place for the national team so that they can do the processes right.

However, any of these things not in place doesnt mean that anyone can get away with any sort of decisions and administrators completely ignoring it by using the things in first paragraph as an excuse.

Thing is when Shaheen was brought into the side in 2017, it was a really good addition to a reasonably developed setup with Amir, Hasan bowling well while Rumman, Shaheen and few others as back up. Yes Shaheen was brought into the national team after 1 FC match and handful of T20 matches but that is something which Pak possibly could have afford at that time. He was transitioned into international cricket with T20s then ODIs and eventually test. To be honest he is highly skillful but, is far from fully developed as of now himself.

Further during Mickey's tenure Hasnain was tried against Aus before world cup for few matches. The whole process was somewhat acceptable at the time atleast in case of Shaheen as he gave the attack much more variety.

Unfortunately the whole process in recent times has taken an extreme turn. Haider Ali, Abdullah Shafique, Naseem Shah, Mohammad Hasnian, Mohammad Musa, Haris Rauf are too many names without considerable domestic experience or performances. They all havent played handful domestic matches combined and developing so many cricketers at international level at once comes at a big cost.

If at all Haider Ali's inclusion could somewhat have been acceptable considering dearth of batting resources available for Pak though in ideal scenario he would have played atleast 2-3 seasons of domestic cricket with performances to even for any other team.

Rather than focusing upon developing Haider first and other players who are young at international level like Khushdil Shah, Hussain Talat etc. They brought in Abdullah Shafique just like they did with pacers like Naseem, Hasnain etc when Shaheen is still under development. Even when Abdullah scored a century, many posters including me were highly impressed but, at the same time said that best way would be to allow him a complete couple of seasons before bringing him to national setup.

To manifest this whole process of developing so many players is an extreme, one can easily look around and wont be able to find a single team with so many players with experience of under 10 FC matches.

In modern day cricket with so much analysis around even if someone is as good as a past legend and you feel like he is going to become future star or something, still you cant afford to bring in straight into national team without any development at domestic level. As a fan of cricket and fan of Pak team it has been a really surprising year for me as I cant even pin point a point of time in last 2-3 decades in any cricket nation's history that they have so many with under 10 FC matches playing any format for their respective country.

I rate some of the mentioned players decently but, the way they have been transitioned into national setup needs some sort of accountability as these youngsters along with Pak national team all have been bearing the costs.

 

[Xoib]

This is what I have been crying about for past couple of months

We have two really good raw talents (Haider and Naseem) and we are in the process of destroying them as we are expecting them to deliver from the getgo in two really critical roles (limited overs format number 3 and test match 3rd pacer) when they are atleast couple of years away from being international class for atleast 2 seasons they have been allowed to develop there skills, temperament with their respective QeA sides.

 

[Xoib]

It's also the reason I kept on insisting in Mubasher Khan thread that don't fast track him just let him develop on his own for couple of seasons before thinking of giving him an upgrade to senior side

 

[Mamoon]

The problem is that our fans cannot be satisfied because they are always fishing for excuses.

If Misbah had picked Imran or Sohail over Naseem in the playing XI for the England series, our fans wouldn’t stop talking about how Misbah favors old players and how his decision to hold Naseem back cost Pakistan the series.

It is not about the senior-junior divide only. We need to accept the reality that 99% of the players coming through are not international class.

They are hyped to the moon when they do well in domestic cricket or the low budget league PSL but once they get exposed to the higher level of international cricket, they look like rabbit in headlights.

 

[Markhor]

POTW. This fast-tracking policy has become a massive concern under Misbah and I hope Mohammad Wasim puts an end to it.

Not only are we showing a disrespect to the rigors of international cricket by thinking we can pluck kids from obscurity and throw them into tough overseas tours, we are disrespecting our domestic system which for all its flaws is still the best way of allowing youngsters to learn their craft.

 

[Mamoon]

Pakistani fans: Misbah prefers oldies and doesn’t give young players a chance.

Also Pakistani fans: Misbah fast-tracks youngsters without allowing them FC experience.

Misbah can never win from Pakistani fans. Never.

 

[JaDed]

Top post.

 

[Xoib]

Pakistani fans: Misbah prefers oldies and doesn’t give young players a chance.

Also Pakistani fans: Misbah fast-tracks youngsters without allowing them FC experience.

Misbah can never win from Pakistani fans. Never.

You are taking it to an extreme
Not picking Haider Nasseem etc does not mean we pick Kashif bhatti Sohail Khan etc.

Misbah and Waqar biggest issue is that when they went in to looking for talent they went two extremes on one end you have Naseem, Haider, Abdullah Musa etc who needs couple of season at fc level to develop and are undercooked or they go for Bhatti, Fawad, Imran Khan Sr etc who are in the twilight of their career. It was the likes of Adil Amin, Suad, Salah uddin, Zia ul Haq, Ehsan Adil the payers on the 23-30 age range with plenty of FC expiernce who should have been givin a chance unfortunately this core of players have been completely ignored in the new setup.

 

[Markhor]

Pakistani fans: Misbah prefers oldies and doesn’t give young players a chance.

Also Pakistani fans: Misbah fast-tracks youngsters without allowing them FC experience.

Misbah can never win from Pakistani fans. Never.

There has to be a balance. I don't mind one, maybe two "project players" who are in and around the squad playing the odd game.

However as Titan24 rightly points out I cannot recall as many unproven players in an international squad as Pakistan have. This romantic 80s/90s era notion of players off the street taking the world by storm is nonsense as the gap is too big between amateur and professional cricket now.

 

[Mamoon]

There has to be a balance. I don't mind one, maybe two "project players" who are in and around the squad playing the odd game.

However as Titan24 rightly points out I cannot recall as many unproven players in an international squad as Pakistan have. This romantic 80s/90s era notion of players off the street taking the world by storm is nonsense as the gap is too big between amateur and professional cricket now.

Who defines the balance? The fans do, and when the outcome isn’t what they expect, they change the definition of this balance so that they can continue to bash Misbah.

Our fans are always looking for a punching bag because they are not willing to accept that they players aren’t good enough, experienced or not.

I am not talking about Titan24 in particular because he happens to be one of the new sensible and perspective Pakistani posters.

 

[Mamoon]

You are taking it to an extreme
Not picking Haider Nasseem etc does not mean we pick Kashif bhatti Sohail Khan etc.

Misbah and Waqar biggest issue is that when they went in to looking for talent they went two extremes on one end you have Naseem, Haider, Abdullah Musa etc who needs couple of season at fc level to develop and are undercooked or they go for Bhatti, Fawad, Imran Khan Sr etc who are in the twilight of their career. It was the likes of Adil Amin, Suad, Salah uddin, Zia ul Haq, Ehsan Adil the payers on the 23-30 age range with plenty of FC expiernce who should have been givin a chance unfortunately this core of players have been completely ignored in the new setup.

Yes and most of the players in the 23-30 age group are also not international level. So what do we do now?

 

[Energy]

Good thread and points to a major selection flaw within the PCB.

Why do we have a fast track policy? Because the selectors/coaches cannot be bothered to toil following the domestic season 'closely'. Whatever floats in the highlights and media is automatically up for grabs. The first decision Misbah made as selector was to bring in Akmal, Shehzad and Irfan into the team without any logic. And then be shameless enough to continue pursuing shambolic selections thereafter.

It doesn't matter how good Wasim will be in his role as selector, if he cannot get along with Misbah and Waqar then it will be a disaster.

 

[Xoib]

Yes and most of the players in the 23-30 age group are also not international level. So what do we do now?

Trust the system that is there atleast one or two of six may turn out to be decent the solution is not to ruine young men careers by bringing them early when they are not ready.

 

[Xoib]

Even some of the best rated prodigies such as cameron Green or ollie Pope are only brought in to the set up when they have 20-25 games and have performance to back up while we throw these young boys with just couple of FC games experience in their kitty

 

[Titan24]

The problem is that our fans cannot be satisfied because they are always fishing for excuses.

If Misbah had picked Imran or Sohail over Naseem in the playing XI for the England series, our fans wouldn’t stop talking about how Misbah favors old players and how his decision to hold Naseem back cost Pakistan the series.

It is not about the senior-junior divide only. We need to accept the reality that 99% of the players coming through are not international class.

They are hyped to the moon when they do well in domestic cricket or the low budget league PSL but once they get exposed to the higher level of international cricket, they look like rabbit in headlights.

Pakistani fans: Misbah prefers oldies and doesn’t give young players a chance.

Also Pakistani fans: Misbah fast-tracks youngsters without allowing them FC experience.

Misbah can never win from Pakistani fans. Never.

I knew it might come across as something to put blame on but, I clarified that in the first paragraph that this is not about the wins or losses in recent times but rather the process which is unprecedented in Pak as well as other cricket playing nation’s history. Results might not have been different but, developing so many players in national team when they should be developed (Whatever good or bad) in the domestic circuit. My post is about this never seen before process which we cant hide behind the mediocrity of the team or the system. Things around in the system not good enough shouldnt mean anyone can get away with anything on the premises that result wouldnt have been different.

Its not about winning the fans in my opinion, its about getting the process right. I am not debating about they quality of upcoming players or the performances, point is as I have said in the last paragraph or so that no one can point a single squad of any top 8 teams going around in any format in last 2-3 decades with so many players with less than 10 matches of 4 day cricket/ FC cricket.

Bringing in youngsters doesnt mean playing someone after 1 or so FC matches rather it can be younger players with a reasonable FC experience which would mean they know more about their own skillset, strengths, weaknesses much more and thus can be reflected in their action. Abdullah, Naseem etc would still have been considered young after two years based upon any definition.

Again the point is not related to the performance but the process which needs accountability as it can cost national team and also can hinder the process of these younger players. Mediocrity of the team is not a license to do anything with the team.

 

[indianpanacea]

1)The problem with pak.is being impatient.
2)picking wrong players for wrong format.
3)Making young ones face music while preserving old guards...
How on earth was iftikhar,Shoaib malik made to play on Pakistani pitches and not playing iftikhar in New Zealand?and making the young Haider and shafiq as Scape goats .
I remember same happened to Umar Amin in England 2010.
What the hell is going on?You make youngster play in home conditions for at least 3-4 series but here the case is reverse?
Who is responsible?
Historically all Asian sides have struggled in New Zealand??If Babar was unfit shouldn't imam be drafted in T20 squad?

 

[MMHS]

Two T20s, PAK played identical XI, of which one is forced - Abdullah for Babar. If I take out that, this is the official age of the XI

1. Rizwan 28
2. Babar 26
3. Haider 21
4. Hafeez 40
5. Shadab 23
6. Khusdil 25
7. Imad 32
8. Faheem 27
9. Wahab 35
10. Shaheen 21
11. Rauf 27

There are two players over 35, two under 23. Average age of the XI : 29.

One of the two oldies is head & shoulders above other batsmen bat Captain; and the 35!years of pacer was instrumental in at least 2 of the last 3-4 wins.


Based on the data - now let’s discuss what else could have been done here. To me, this is absolutely perfect balance considering that the two oldies are earning their spot and on a fair judgement, third oldie Malik deserves a chance over the talent of Khusdil .....

I won’t write my thoughts here - floor is open, please populate.

 

[Xoib]

Two T20s, PAK played identical XI, of which one is forced - Abdullah for Babar. If I take out that, this is the official age of the XI

1. Rizwan 28
2. Babar 26
3. Haider 21
4. Hafeez 40
5. Shadab 23
6. Khusdil 25
7. Imad 32
8. Faheem 27
9. Wahab 35
10. Shaheen 21
11. Rauf 27

There are two players over 35, two under 23. Average age of the XI : 29.

One of the two oldies is head & shoulders above other batsmen bat Captain; and the 35!years of pacer was instrumental in at least 2 of the last 3-4 wins.


Based on the data - now let’s discuss what else could have been done here. To me, this is absolutely perfect balance considering that the two oldies are earning their spot and on a fair judgement, third oldie Malik deserves a chance over the talent of Khusdil .....

I won’t write my thoughts here - floor is open, please populate.

Thanks for missing the point of the thread.

 

[MMHS]

Thanks for missing the point of the thread.

Educate me please - I want to learn.

 

[Markhor]

Two T20s, PAK played identical XI, of which one is forced - Abdullah for Babar. If I take out that, this is the official age of the XI

1. Rizwan 28
2. Babar 26
3. Haider 21
4. Hafeez 40
5. Shadab 23
6. Khusdil 25
7. Imad 32
8. Faheem 27
9. Wahab 35
10. Shaheen 21
11. Rauf 27

There are two players over 35, two under 23. Average age of the XI : 29.

One of the two oldies is head & shoulders above other batsmen bat Captain; and the 35!years of pacer was instrumental in at least 2 of the last 3-4 wins.


Based on the data - now let’s discuss what else could have been done here. To me, this is absolutely perfect balance considering that the two oldies are earning their spot and on a fair judgement, third oldie Malik deserves a chance over the talent of Khusdil .....

I won’t write my thoughts here - floor is open, please populate.

It's not an issue of age but taking kids onto tough overseas tours with scant FC experience. Particularly concerning is the imbalance between FC and T20 cricket.

Musa Khan - 9 matches (26 T20s).
Mohammad Hasnain - 2 matches (44 T20s).
Naseem Shah - 16 matches (12 T20s).
Shaheen Afridi - 17 matches (67 T20s).
Haider Ali - 8 matches (31 T20s).
Abdullah Shafiq - 1 match (13 T20s).

Now how will these youngsters learn their craft and develop into Test cricketers when these youngsters are being fast tracked into the national setup ? How can you develop Test cricketers being fed a non-stop diet of useless T20s ?

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Need to respect domestic cricket. And pick from there. Fast tracking the whole team is only going to lead to chaos. Only 2 or maybe 3 players could be fast tracked that too if they are pacers or once-in-a-generation talent probably like Shaheen.
Fast tracking batters leads to failure majority of the time because you need to discipline yourself except in t20is. Even David Warner was only brought in t20is and was brought in the longer formats after more than 2 years after he had proven himself in the domestic cricket.

 

[MMHS]

It's not an issue of age but taking kids onto tough overseas tours with scant FC experience. Particularly concerning is the imbalance between FC and T20 cricket.

Musa Khan - 9 matches (26 T20s).
Mohammad Hasnain - 2 matches (44 T20s).
Naseem Shah - 16 matches (12 T20s).
Shaheen Afridi - 17 matches (67 T20s).
Haider Ali - 8 matches (31 T20s).
Abdullah Shafiq - 1 match (13 T20s).

Now how will these youngsters learn their craft and develop into Test cricketers when these youngsters are being fast tracked into the national setup ? How can you develop Test cricketers being fed a non-stop diet of useless T20s ?

This is for T20 I believe because PAK’s Test side is probably the oldest and most domestically experienced in contemporary world, even considering official age - just check back how many years of domestics Azhar, Shan, Abid, Haris, Rizwan, Yasir, Abbas, Babar, Fawad, Faheem has played and I believe each or most of them will start in Boxing Day Test, subject to fitness. And, I am sure we’ll read obituary the other extreme as well after the Tests ....

Now bro, I can pull up hundreds of threads here cursing Misbah for his man crash on oldies, therefore it’s a bit hypocritical to bash him (or the process) to fast track youngsters. There are two extremes indeed, but if I take out the one extreme end of this XI, you know ..... I have seen PAK batting yesterday. Point is, PAK youngsters have to deliver as well - no one is expecting Abdullah, Haider or Khusdil to match remotely close to what Hafeez did yesterday, but ..... This time Shadab even can’t give the excuse of rust ....

Coming to this T20 squad - just about few weeks back two domestic T20 tournaments ended - National T20 & PSL. The players picked here are the best performers of those two - only missing are Man of Series Fakhar, who showed his class against ZIM few weeks back to be dropped and man of the final Malik - these days serving the witch hunt for his age.

The list that you have posted, it would have been questionable had all of them played together. But, it’s quite normal that you’ll have few new faces in squad, few oldies as well and core squad between 23 to 35 - that’s exactly has been done here and domestically each of the players (bar Abdullah) has enough games. Next T20, probably they’ll drop Abdullah for Talat but this is what it is and it’s just not good enough to be honest.

 

[Titan24]

It's not an issue of age but taking kids onto tough overseas tours with scant FC experience. Particularly concerning is the imbalance between FC and T20 cricket.

Musa Khan - 9 matches (26 T20s).
Mohammad Hasnain - 2 matches (44 T20s).
Naseem Shah - 16 matches (12 T20s).
Shaheen Afridi - 17 matches (67 T20s).
Haider Ali - 8 matches (31 T20s).
Abdullah Shafiq - 1 match (13 T20s).

Now how will these youngsters learn their craft and develop into Test cricketers when these youngsters are being fast tracked into the national setup ? How can you develop Test cricketers being fed a non-stop diet of useless T20s ?

Exactly. Also 7 of the matches Naseem played were test matches and 2-3 tour matches if I am not wrong making up the tally currently, thus manifesting international cricket being used as platform to develop his basics.

 

[Titan24]

Two T20s, PAK played identical XI, of which one is forced - Abdullah for Babar. If I take out that, this is the official age of the XI

1. Rizwan 28
2. Babar 26
3. Haider 21
4. Hafeez 40
5. Shadab 23
6. Khusdil 25
7. Imad 32
8. Faheem 27
9. Wahab 35
10. Shaheen 21
11. Rauf 27

There are two players over 35, two under 23. Average age of the XI : 29.

One of the two oldies is head & shoulders above other batsmen bat Captain; and the 35!years of pacer was instrumental in at least 2 of the last 3-4 wins.


Based on the data - now let’s discuss what else could have been done here. To me, this is absolutely perfect balance considering that the two oldies are earning their spot and on a fair judgement, third oldie Malik deserves a chance over the talent of Khusdil .....

I won’t write my thoughts here - floor is open, please populate.

Point wasnt about combinations of the playing XI rather exposing quite a few younger players to international cricket too early. Why Abdullah Shafique had to be replacement of Babar to start with and why it was so necessary for o debut him against Zim after just 1 FC and handful T20 matches. Why couldn’t be have played couple of seasons of domestic cricket, be more assured and confident of his game before debuting? He himself said he wasn’t expecting a call up.

In the meanwhile there were other players who could have played and be part of the squad while Abdullah could have played the QAE trophy. There are currently 5 players in the T20 squad with less than 10 FC matches (Haider, Hasnian, Abdullah, Musa, Haris). I cant think of any squad by any team with so these many players with so little FC matches in any format, If there have been such squads by any team in the last 2 decades or so kindly mention them, even one such squad would surprise me.

Same was the case with Naseem Shah coming straight into test XI after while Shaheen was already under development. Not only that Musa without anything came into XI in the same test series against Aus. Results could have been the same irrespective of the players but, thats no excuse of such ordinary decisions.

Thats pretty poor way of handling team and young players in my opinion. Again as I mentioned in my post, its not about the result but, rather the process lf how things have been handled in the last year so.

 

[MMHS]

Pardon me guys - I am a bit lost these days. PP these days is showing bipolar syndrome among passionate fans - there is another thread running around now about the talent and I am picking exact names from that thread with a note that “even Younis was producing one innings per series”

Abdullah Shafique
Haider Ali
Saud Shakeel
Mubasir Khan - who can bat Top Six and bowl off-spin as a support spinner.
Mohammad Nawaz - who can bat at six and bowl slow left-arm as a part-time support spinner.
Rohail Nazir - who looks like a Top Six batsman who can keep wicket
Amad Butt - who can bowl 140K and be a decent Number 8.
Shadab Khan - who is a legitimate Test Number 7 who can bowl part-time leg-spin.
Zafar Gohar - who can also bat at 8 and be a decent support spinner.
Sajid Khan - who is a top class off-spinner who can bat at 8.
Naseem Shah
Shaheen Shah Afridi


Therefore, I got a bit chuckled ..... no worries, I got the point of the thread.

 

[MMHS]

Point wasnt about combinations of the playing XI rather exposing quite a few younger players to international cricket too early. Why Abdullah Shafique had to be replacement of Babar to start with and why it was so necessary for o debut him against Zim after just 1 FC and handful T20 matches. Why couldn’t be have played couple of seasons of domestic cricket, be more assured and confident of his game before debuting? He himself said he wasn’t expecting a call up.

In the meanwhile there were other players who could have played and be part of the squad while Abdullah could have played the QAE trophy. There are currently 5 players in the T20 squad with less than 10 FC matches (Haider, Hasnian, Abdullah, Musa, Haris). I cant think of any squad by any team with so these many players with so little FC matches in any format, If there have been such squads by any team in the last 2 decades or so kindly mention them, even one such squad would surprise me.

Same was the case with Naseem Shah coming straight into test XI after while Shaheen was already under development. Not only that Musa without anything came into XI in the same test series against Aus. Results could have been the same irrespective of the players but, thats no excuse of such ordinary decisions.

Thats pretty poor way of handling team and young players in my opinion. Again as I mentioned in my post, its not about the result but, rather the process lf how things have been handled in the last year so.

After couple of innings, if that guy Abdullah can draw threads in PP like : Abdullah Shafique vs Shubhman Gill”, then I guess the young man deserved a call.

Did I read here why Naseem was picked ...... really? Incredible, I have to say.

I am actually caught into two extremes - 20 wickets in three Test in UK, 100 wickets by 25th Test ...... to this.

Any way, I have got the point of the thread - only issue is selection & combination. These are two easiest things to fix, as they say if you have the ingredients, just need to change the chef.....

 

[Titan24]

After couple of innings, if that guy Abdullah can draw threads in PP like : Abdullah Shafique vs Shubhman Gill”, then I guess the young man deserved a call.

Did I read here why Naseem was picked ...... really? Incredible, I have to say.

I am actually caught into two extremes - 20 wickets in three Test in UK, 100 wickets by 25th Test ...... to this.

Any way, I have got the point of the thread - only issue is selection & combination. These are two easiest things to fix, as they say if you have the ingredients, just need to change the chef.....

I am not talking about the hype of players by fans. As I have said and no one can point a a single squad with 5 players with less than 10 matches in any format. At the same time two pacers debuting in Aus with less than 10 FC matches between them.

Regarding Naseem or even any other the point why they have been picked so early.

If there are examples, floor is open. Its not about who is winning or losing and whether some combination would have made a difference or not, its about inducting players before they are ripe, which impacts the team as well as growth of the players.

Unfortunately it looks like you again missed the point of the thread and trying to take it into the same direction which you like to take everything into

 

[shah_1]

Lyon played only 4 FC before making test debut and had a bowling SR of 80+, talk about fast tracking a player then developing him. I remember Steyn and Rabada also being fast tracked.

It is not something new [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION]. We can't develop players as simple as that.

 

[Titan24]

Lyon played only 4 FC before making test debut and had a bowling SR of 80+, talk about fast tracking a player then developing him. I remember Steyn and Rabada also being fast tracked.

It is not something new [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION]. We can't develop players as simple as that.

Thing is he was just one guy in the squad and eventually in the playing XI, which can be acceptable considering the dearth of spin bowling options in Aus. There weren’t many other spinners were available in Aus at that time with considerably more matches and some performances. Okeefe probably was one.

Developing multiple players at international level at the same time in the fields where there are options available is unprecedented.

 

[usmanraheel]

1)The problem with pak.is being impatient.
2)picking wrong players for wrong format.
3)Making young ones face music while preserving old guards...
How on earth was iftikhar,Shoaib malik made to play on Pakistani pitches and not playing iftikhar in New Zealand?and making the young Haider and shafiq as Scape goats .
I remember same happened to Umar Amin in England 2010.
What the hell is going on?You make youngster play in home conditions for at least 3-4 series but here the case is reverse?
Who is responsible?
Historically all Asian sides have struggled in New Zealand??If Babar was unfit shouldn't imam be drafted in T20 squad?

Beautiful comments my friend. I totally agree.

Also great thread OP, couldn't agree more.

 

[Savak]

Playing youngsters is fine, Pakistan is not blessed with choices. Chopping changing dropping players after 1-2 failures is the problem, if you pick someone, give them the entire series before axing them.

 

[Maliq_Mudasir]

Beautiful comments my friend. I totally agree.

Also great thread OP, couldn't agree more.

Imam is also injured.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

As I have always said that win and loss is part of any sport. Ratio of that depends upon the overall systems and necessary support in place for the national team so that they can do the processes right.

However, any of these things not in place doesnt mean that anyone can get away with any sort of decisions and administrators completely ignoring it by using the things in first paragraph as an excuse.

Thing is when Shaheen was brought into the side in 2017, it was a really good addition to a reasonably developed setup with Amir, Hasan bowling well while Rumman, Shaheen and few others as back up. Yes Shaheen was brought into the national team after 1 FC match and handful of T20 matches but that is something which Pak possibly could have afford at that time. He was transitioned into international cricket with T20s then ODIs and eventually test. To be honest he is highly skillful but, is far from fully developed as of now himself.

Further during Mickey's tenure Hasnain was tried against Aus before world cup for few matches. The whole process was somewhat acceptable at the time atleast in case of Shaheen as he gave the attack much more variety.

Unfortunately the whole process in recent times has taken an extreme turn. Haider Ali, Abdullah Shafique, Naseem Shah, Mohammad Hasnian, Mohammad Musa, Haris Rauf are too many names without considerable domestic experience or performances. They all havent played handful domestic matches combined and developing so many cricketers at international level at once comes at a big cost.

If at all Haider Ali's inclusion could somewhat have been acceptable considering dearth of batting resources available for Pak though in ideal scenario he would have played atleast 2-3 seasons of domestic cricket with performances to even for any other team.

Rather than focusing upon developing Haider first and other players who are young at international level like Khushdil Shah, Hussain Talat etc. They brought in Abdullah Shafique just like they did with pacers like Naseem, Hasnain etc when Shaheen is still under development. Even when Abdullah scored a century, many posters including me were highly impressed but, at the same time said that best way would be to allow him a complete couple of seasons before bringing him to national setup.

To manifest this whole process of developing so many players is an extreme, one can easily look around and wont be able to find a single team with so many players with experience of under 10 FC matches.

In modern day cricket with so much analysis around even if someone is as good as a past legend and you feel like he is going to become future star or something, still you cant afford to bring in straight into national team without any development at domestic level. As a fan of cricket and fan of Pak team it has been a really surprising year for me as I cant even pin point a point of time in last 2-3 decades in any cricket nation's history that they have so many with under 10 FC matches playing any format for their respective country.

I rate some of the mentioned players decently but, the way they have been transitioned into national setup needs some sort of accountability as these youngsters along with Pak national team all have been bearing the costs.

For the bold underline part above.

There is a counter argument against this philosophy that you must take into consideration.

And that is, the level and quality of our domestic cricket is SO LOW and SO POOR that it simply does not produce top international quality batsmen no matter how good and how long has a player performed in the domestic.

What are you saying here? If Haider or Abdullah or Hasnain etc had played more domestic cricket, they would have performed better in the international arena?

No sir.
We have seen it over and over and over again when a dropped out new comer is pushed back into domestic, and he piles runs over runs and centuries over centuries but soon as he gets back into the international team, he becomes a deer caught in the headlights, again.
Forget Umer Akmal or Kamran Akmal or Khurram Manzoor .... even IMRAN FARHAT was scoring centuries after centuries in domestic after being kicked out from the national side. So, what is the worth and value of our current domestic cricket? ZERO!

You send Haider and Abdullah back into the domestic and they will pile centuries for you. And you believe that they will set the world on fire after being recalled into the national side?
NO SIR! This a tried and tested route that we have been on a million times already. It's like hiring Waqar Yonus a caoch over and over again, and hope that he will produce another Waqar or Wasim.

Once you and I agree that performing in Pakistan's domestic cricket and/or having long playing experience in domestic cricket, is almost a negligible factor in fast tracking the player into the national side, THEN we come to the question, as to what should be our alternative?

For long term solution, yes we need to dig deep at the grass root level, and improve and raise the quality and standard of our domestic cricket. Obviously, this cant and this won't happen overnight, and it needs an an entire new thread.

Read the OP here for starters.

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...Will-Dav-Whatmore-read-this&highlight=woolmer



The question then is, what is the quick solution?
And the answer is: We need to identify talented youngsters in our domestic cricket who are QUICK LEARNERS and train them at the job.

(If you notice, we actually followed this philosophy off the field but, instead of picking a sharp and talented candidate who may have lacked experience, we selected a complete duffer, and fast tracked him to become a coach and chief selector)

So, what do we need to do?
We should strike a balance between picking great domestic performers and also fast tracking a few youngsters who have shown signs of being talented and they are quick leaners, and we should train them at job.

Frankly speaking, if you calm down a little and analyze your OP again, you might feel that it may have a slight hint of a rant delivered in frustration after we loss two games. Had we won these two games, you would've NEVER created the OP. (even though we had the same players and same set up)

So, IMO, in this particular 2 game loss, what we saw was expected and it's OK. We might lose 0-3 and it's still OK.

The reason is, the product of our domestic cricket is lesser in quality than what NZ's domestic has produced. This is one MAJOR factor.

Just think about it,
On one hand you can compare Siefert vs Rizwan to get the idea of our domestic product vs theirs.

And on the other hand you have put our young chicks against the veterans in the likes of Southee and Boult.
What did you expect?
This is the second MAJOR factor behind the loss.

Once we acknowledge this, we should be able to come to an agreement that sending Haider and Abdullah etc back into domestic to get "considerable experience" will be a TOTAL WASTE OF TIME.
Keep grinding a good and talented domestic prospect for years in the domestic FC should not be a standard either.


Instead we should make them play more and more international games so that they are pitched against tougher oppositions and become battle hardened. Yes, they will need right coaching and right guidance to go through this transition but that's our best bet.

You know, if you play ping pong or chess, you will notice that in general. the top level players don't play with weaker players unless it's a tournament game. The reason is very simple, the quality of their own game becomes weak and diluted. They always look for tougher oppositions to sharpen their skill.
And on the hand, when a weaker player keeps on playing with tough player, his own game starts to improve.

And this is our key here. We need to put these talented youngsters against tougher oppositions instead of against domestic trundlers on dead pitches. There is no use of it.

And here is part of the problem.
Knowing that our domestic quality is poor, we simply don't have those set of eyes who could identify talented quick learners in the domestic, fast track them into international arena (as we once did with young Wasim, Waqar and Inzi) and then coach/train them at job.

Whether it's Misbah, or Saleem Jaffer, Basit Ali OR WHOEVER, they simply don't have the ability to identify that needle in the haystack. I mean, for goodness sake, Baber Azam was considered a "reject and failure" by these duffers.

But now, with tons of pressure from the fans. there is a little hope that we forced the selectors to pick the youngsters. We now got these young kids thrown out in the deep water. Yes, they will get slaughtered by the opposition in the beginning but that's part of the training. They should simply play more and more international cricket (provided that they are talented and quick learners) and they will be better off, rather then spending more time in domestic cricket.

These two losses?
I say, we didn't do too bad when we were able to drag both games into the last over. This is good enough. We were 20 odd runs short in both games that can be blamed on the absence of Baber :: wink ::

What we need now, is to properly coach these young batsmen to step up from domestic and learn how is the counter attack launched in the international arena?
Dean Jones was our best bet to do this job but we got unlucky to see his unexpected demised but then was never gonna be selected for the job anyway. And Misbah is perhaps the worst possible person do it or manage this responsibility. All eyes on Younus Khan now.

 

[Thunderbolt14]

Pardon me guys - I am a bit lost these days. PP these days is showing bipolar syndrome among passionate fans - there is another thread running around now about the talent and I am picking exact names from that thread with a note that “even Younis was producing one innings per series”

Abdullah Shafique
Haider Ali
Saud Shakeel
Mubasir Khan - who can bat Top Six and bowl off-spin as a support spinner.
Mohammad Nawaz - who can bat at six and bowl slow left-arm as a part-time support spinner.
Rohail Nazir - who looks like a Top Six batsman who can keep wicket
Amad Butt - who can bowl 140K and be a decent Number 8.
Shadab Khan - who is a legitimate Test Number 7 who can bowl part-time leg-spin.
Zafar Gohar - who can also bat at 8 and be a decent support spinner.
Sajid Khan - who is a top class off-spinner who can bat at 8.
Naseem Shah
Shaheen Shah Afridi


Therefore, I got a bit chuckled ..... no worries, I got the point of the thread.

You’re cherry picking a post from a non-Pakistani. I don’t think any poster on PP aside from that person wants all these names fast tracked. They are all reasonable talents but there is no bipolarity involved - it’s okay for 18 year olds to be praised on PP. Doesn’t mean they need to be fast tracked immediately, or even worse, played in the wrong format.

There is a difference between debuting a 20 year old youngster with 1 first class game and a 25 year old youngster with 50 first class games, even if both are equally hyped by PP. i hope you’ll understand my drift.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

After couple of innings, if that guy Abdullah can draw threads in PP like : Abdullah Shafique vs Shubhman Gill”, then I guess the young man deserved a call.

Did I read here why Naseem was picked ...... really? Incredible, I have to say.

I am actually caught into two extremes - 20 wickets in three Test in UK, 100 wickets by 25th Test ...... to this.

Any way, I have got the point of the thread - only issue is selection & combination. These are two easiest things to fix, as they say if you have the ingredients, just need to change the chef.....

We should have an option open to fast track an extra talented and promising you player but to some extent, I agree with you here.

The player hype is absolutely crazy among some Pakistan fans.

A small little glimpse in a young player, and they put him over the moon.

Every other young player who gets interviewed by PP, has the same mantra,

"I am ready to represent Pakistan.
I can fill the gap left by Inzi.
I am fully confident to play test cricket.
I can resolve the opening problem.
I am the solution of middle order batting crisis.
I am the one!".

This is the general feel; however, the question is, are you even international quality? The answer in almost all cases is a big fat NO!.

You are an avid fan and I guess you will understand my gist here, but when you look at the VERY FIRST ball of the second T20, you would notice that Pakistan team did not deserve to win this game.

It was absolute halwa, full toss on the front foot by Boult, and Rizwan couldn't do anything about.
The fact that we pulled this game up to the last over is a moral victory.

The standard of our domestic cricket is just not good enough to continuously produce international level batsmen.
Averages catch up and once every decade we produce a good batsman. Zaheer, Javed, Inzi, Yosuf, Yonus and now Baber Azam.

Otherwise, it's mostly an army of trundlers ready to raise their collars in the field, and give sajadas in the ground after scoring a 50 against Afghanistan.

 

[Titan24]

For the bold underline part above.

There is a counter argument against this philosophy that you must take into consideration.

And that is, the level and quality of our domestic cricket is SO LOW and SO POOR that it simply does not produce top international quality batsmen no matter how good and how long has a player performed in the domestic.

What are you saying here? If Haider or Abdullah or Hasnain etc had played more domestic cricket, they would have performed better in the international arena?

No sir.
We have seen it over and over and over again when a dropped out new comer is pushed back into domestic, and he piles runs over runs and centuries over centuries but soon as he gets back into the international team, he becomes a deer caught in the headlights, again.
Forget Umer Akmal or Kamran Akmal or Khurram Manzoor .... even IMRAN FARHAT was scoring centuries after centuries in domestic after being kicked out from the national side. So, what is the worth and value of our current domestic cricket? ZERO!

You send Haider and Abdullah back into the domestic and they will pile centuries for you. And you believe that they will set the world on fire after being recalled into the national side?
NO SIR! This a tried and tested route that we have been on a million times already. It's like hiring Waqar Yonus a caoch over and over again, and hope that he will produce another Waqar or Wasim.

Once you and I agree that performing in Pakistan's domestic cricket and/or having long playing experience in domestic cricket, is almost a negligible factor in fast tracking the player into the national side, THEN we come to the question, as to what should be our alternative?

For long term solution, yes we need to dig deep at the grass root level, and improve and raise the quality and standard of our domestic cricket. Obviously, this cant and this won't happen overnight, and it needs an an entire new thread.

Read the OP here for starters.

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...Will-Dav-Whatmore-read-this&highlight=woolmer



The question then is, what is the quick solution?
And the answer is: We need to identify talented youngsters in our domestic cricket who are QUICK LEARNERS and train them at the job.

(If you notice, we actually followed this philosophy off the field but, instead of picking a sharp and talented candidate who may have lacked experience, we selected a complete duffer, and fast tracked him to become a coach and chief selector)

So, what do we need to do?
We should strike a balance between picking great domestic performers and also fast tracking a few youngsters who have shown signs of being talented and they are quick leaners, and we should train them at job.

Frankly speaking, if you calm down a little and analyze your OP again, you might feel that it may have a slight hint of a rant delivered in frustration after we loss two games. Had we won these two games, you would've NEVER created the OP. (even though we had the same players and same set up)

So, IMO, in this particular 2 game loss, what we saw was expected and it's OK. We might lose 0-3 and it's still OK.

The reason is, the product of our domestic cricket is lesser in quality than what NZ's domestic has produced. This is one MAJOR factor.

Just think about it,
On one hand you can compare Siefert vs Rizwan to get the idea of our domestic product vs theirs.

And on the other hand you have put our young chicks against the veterans in the likes of Southee and Boult.
What did you expect?
This is the second MAJOR factor behind the loss.

Once we acknowledge this, we should be able to come to an agreement that sending Haider and Abdullah etc back into domestic to get "considerable experience" will be a TOTAL WASTE OF TIME.
Keep grinding a good and talented domestic prospect for years in the domestic FC should not be a standard either.


Instead we should make them play more and more international games so that they are pitched against tougher oppositions and become battle hardened. Yes, they will need right coaching and right guidance to go through this transition but that's our best bet.

You know, if you play ping pong or chess, you will notice that in general. the top level players don't play with weaker players unless it's a tournament game. The reason is very simple, the quality of their own game becomes weak and diluted. They always look for tougher oppositions to sharpen their skill.
And on the hand, when a weaker player keeps on playing with tough player, his own game starts to improve.

And this is our key here. We need to put these talented youngsters against tougher oppositions instead of against domestic trundlers on dead pitches. There is no use of it.

And here is part of the problem.
Knowing that our domestic quality is poor, we simply don't have those set of eyes who could identify talented quick learners in the domestic, fast track them into international arena (as we once did with young Wasim, Waqar and Inzi) and then coach/train them at job.

Whether it's Misbah, or Saleem Jaffer, Basit Ali OR WHOEVER, they simply don't have the ability to identify that needle in the haystack. I mean, for goodness sake, Baber Azam was considered a "reject and failure" by these duffers.

But now, with tons of pressure from the fans. there is a little hope that we forced the selectors to pick the youngsters. We now got these young kids thrown out in the deep water. Yes, they will get slaughtered by the opposition in the beginning but that's part of the training. They should simply play more and more international cricket (provided that they are talented and quick learners) and they will be better off, rather then spending more time in domestic cricket.

These two losses?
I say, we didn't do too bad when we were able to drag both games into the last over. This is good enough. We were 20 odd runs short in both games that can be blamed on the absence of Baber :: wink ::

What we need now, is to properly coach these young batsmen to step up from domestic and learn how is the counter attack launched in the international arena?
Dean Jones was our best bet to do this job but we got unlucky to see his unexpected demised but then was never gonna be selected for the job anyway. And Misbah is perhaps the worst possible person do it or manage this responsibility. All eyes on Younus Khan now.

I respectfully disagree.

Firstly it has nothing to do with the result of the T20 series vs England as I have mentioned in my post. My analysis is based upon the process in place since last year or two.

Further I am not talking about dropping anybody rather I am questioning the timing of selections.

We dont even see Westindies or even Zim/Ireland for that matter bringing in players with so little domestic experience. Chemar Holder debuted for WI in NZ, and he had experience of 20 FC matches.

If we just think about domestic standard is bad than WI and few other teams should be the first one to fast track the youngsters and become a top side. So my question is why dont they or any team for that matter implement it?

In my opinion development comes in two parts and you have completely ignored the first part and training young players at for both part of the development at international level is a costly option and not at all feasible in the long run.

First part is maturing ones own game by understanding the strengths, weakness, gaining the much needed confidence on ones abilities, self awareness and game awareness. Irrespective of the variation in the standard of cricket at domestic level, when you play FC matches it brings in maturity in the game of the player and he has more understanding of playing different sort of bowlers, in different situations and conditions. In addition to that it teaches the players, how to practice and what state of mind you need when you are out of form and how to capitalize on a good form you had in a season. So you cant skip the part of domestic experience just because one thinks the quality isn't good enough.

Yes second part is development to international level and that does require either a top domestic structure or right mentors and coaches.

However, skipping even the first part which domestic circuit in Pakistan can easily offer is totally questionable and there is no way it can be defended.

You can check the debutants of Pakistan in last decade or two and any decent cricketer we have produced came in the team after decent amount of domestic experience. Be it Asif, Amir, Babar etc.

I dont mind one or two players being fast tracked if they are really good and team needs that kind of player but, you cant have 30, 40% of the squad based upon fast tracked youngsters. Just because you dont have international quality in certain department, it doesnt mean you are going to fast track not one but number of good young players without much matches under their belt. What you do is you keep an eye on that player and eventually transition him into international cricket in a season or two.

I have asked posters to share examples from last two decades that which other team implemented this model and had so many fast tracked youngsters in any format. Its unprecedented process if we consider any team irrespective of whether there domestic structure is bad or good.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

I respectfully disagree.

Firstly it has nothing to do with the result of the T20 series vs England as I have mentioned in my post. My analysis is based upon the process in place since last year or two.

Further I am not talking about dropping anybody rather I am questioning the timing of selections.

We dont even see Westindies or even Zim/Ireland for that matter bringing in players with so little domestic experience. Chemar Holder debuted for WI in NZ, and he had experience of 20 FC matches.

If we just think about domestic standard is bad than WI and few other teams should be the first one to fast track the youngsters and become a top side. So my question is why dont they or any team for that matter implement it?

In my opinion development comes in two parts and you have completely ignored the first part and training young players at for both part of the development at international level is a costly option and not at all feasible in the long run.

First part is maturing ones own game by understanding the strengths, weakness, gaining the much needed confidence on ones abilities, self awareness and game awareness. Irrespective of the variation in the standard of cricket at domestic level, when you play FC matches it brings in maturity in the game of the player and he has more understanding of playing different sort of bowlers, in different situations and conditions. In addition to that it teaches the players, how to practice and what state of mind you need when you are out of form and how to capitalize on a good form you had in a season. So you cant skip the part of domestic experience just because one thinks the quality isn't good enough.

Yes second part is development to international level and that does require either a top domestic structure or right mentors and coaches.

However, skipping even the first part which domestic circuit in Pakistan can easily offer is totally questionable and there is no way it can be defended.

You can check the debutants of Pakistan in last decade or two and any decent cricketer we have produced came in the team after decent amount of domestic experience. Be it Asif, Amir, Babar etc.

I dont mind one or two players being fast tracked if they are really good and team needs that kind of player but, you cant have 30, 40% of the squad based upon fast tracked youngsters. Just because you dont have international quality in certain department, it doesnt mean you are going to fast track not one but number of good young players without much matches under their belt. What you do is you keep an eye on that player and eventually transition him into international cricket in a season or two.

I have asked posters to share examples from last two decades that which other team implemented this model and had so many fast tracked youngsters in any format. Its unprecedented process if we consider any team irrespective of whether there domestic structure is bad or good.

You and I do have some common ground when I stated that

So, what do we need to do?
We should strike a balance between picking great domestic performers and also fast tracking a few youngsters who have shown signs of being talented and they are quick leaners, and we should train them at job.

However, if we follow your suggestion that sending back Haider, Abdullah, Hasnain etc into the domestic and retraining them will improve their performance and maturity, then that's where the difference of opinion is.

A bodybuilder MUST resist against weights to build more muscle and tone up his shape. He definitely also need time and right food intake.

And our domestic cricket cannot and will not provide that higher resistance for these youngsters to become resilient at the international arena.
So our body builders in the domestic are spending time by lifting tooth pics in hopes to compete in the international arena.

I firmly believe that now that they are (Haider, Hasnain, Imran Butt, Hasnain, Rauf etc) here AND IF they are truly talented, then we should not look back. And make them play more and more international games and provide proper training, guidance AND encouragement that should help them in the transition.

Your post gave me a little food for thought and I just glanced at some numbers and statistics (that I hardly EVER get impressed with, no matter how good they look) but take a look.

Rizwan has played 89 FC games and 134 List A games and 25 T20 internationals.
Seifert has played 38 FC games and 38 List A games and 29 T20 internationals.

Are you saying that if Rizwan had played EVEN MORE domestic cricket, he would have had better quality than Siefert - OR - if Rizwan is sent back into Pak domestic where he plays another 50 FC games, he will then come back as same quality as Siefert? Probably you like this wishful thinking, and I don't have a problem with it.

My philosophy is that since Rizwan may or may not a talent like Siefert but he is the very best among the very we have produced.

Now if we want to improve Rizwan then we have to put him against the likes of Sieferts and de Kocks and Jos Butlers and Risab Pants etc over and over again. This is the kind of resistance that Rizwan needs to face and fight against, in order to improve his game.

Obviously, this example is not particular to Rizwan only but I am talking in general terms.

A talented Pakistan young player has better chances to grow and improve quickly if he plays 20 BBL games rather than playing local 50 T20 games.

The vetting process to fast track a player; however, should be strict.
Not every lallu panju from domestic cricket should be fast tracked.
There must be a great set of eyes that should be able go BEYOND the domestic scorecards and be able identify the extra ordinary hidden talent.

And again, yes I agree that domestic performers should not be ignored; however, domestic machoism should not be THE ONLY criteria to select youngsters into the national team.

 

[Rana]

You and I do have some common ground when I stated that



However, if we follow your suggestion that sending back Haider, Abdullah, Hasnain etc into the domestic and retraining them will improve their performance and maturity, then that's where the difference of opinion is.

A bodybuilder MUST resist against weights to build more muscle and tone up his shape. He definitely also need time and right food intake.

And our domestic cricket cannot and will not provide that higher resistance for these youngsters to become resilient at the international arena.
So our body builders in the domestic are spending time by lifting tooth pics in hopes to compete in the international arena.

I firmly believe that now that they are (Haider, Hasnain, Imran Butt, Hasnain, Rauf etc) here AND IF they are truly talented, then we should not look back. And make them play more and more international games and provide proper training, guidance AND encouragement that should help them in the transition.

Your post gave me a little food for thought and I just glanced at some numbers and statistics (that I hardly EVER get impressed with, no matter how good they look) but take a look.

Rizwan has played 89 FC games and 134 List A games and 25 T20 internationals.
Seifert has played 38 FC games and 38 List A games and 29 T20 internationals.

Are you saying that if Rizwan had played EVEN MORE domestic cricket, he would have had better quality than Siefert - OR - if Rizwan is sent back into Pak domestic where he plays another 50 FC games, he will then come back as same quality as Siefert? Probably you like this wishful thinking, and I don't have a problem with it.

My philosophy is that since Rizwan may or may not a talent like Siefert but he is the very best among the very we have produced.

Now if we want to improve Rizwan then we have to put him against the likes of Sieferts and de Kocks and Jos Butlers and Risab Pants etc over and over again. This is the kind of resistance that Rizwan needs to face and fight against, in order to improve his game.

Obviously, this example is not particular to Rizwan only but I am talking in general terms.

A talented Pakistan young player has better chances to grow and improve quickly if he plays 20 BBL games rather than playing local 50 T20 games.

The vetting process to fast track a player; however, should be strict.
Not every lallu panju from domestic cricket should be fast tracked.
There must be a great set of eyes that should be able go BEYOND the domestic scorecards and be able identify the extra ordinary hidden talent.

And again, yes I agree that domestic performers should not be ignored; however, domestic machoism should not be THE ONLY criteria to select youngsters into the national team.

Good post. Makes sense as well. I think England are kind of doing the same with Tom Banton just like Pakistan have taken a punt with Haider Ali and Shafique.

 

[Titan24]

However, if we follow your suggestion that sending back Haider, Abdullah, Hasnain etc into the domestic and retraining them will improve their performance and maturity, then that's where the difference of opinion is..

So here is a thing; Is Abdullah Shafique more talented than Babar Azam was at 20-21? If not than why was Babar not fast tracked into national team at 19-20 years of age (His hype was there since his U16 days). Why Babar got his debut after around 20 odd FC matches and 40, 50 odd list A games at 22 years of age? Was it wrong to not pick him up straight from U19 because as per your logic domestic cricket plays no role in any sort of development and he might have been better off playing international cricket straight away.

Thing is you cant start to pick talented club cricketers or U16, U19 or so cricketers straight to the national team and develop them over there. International cricket is meant to teach anyone basics but yes if someone has played enough domestic cricket that he atleast knows the basics, he can be brought into national team for better development if his potential is recognized.

I never suggested to send them back now as it will impact their confidence. In my opinion atleast few of them could have been selected atleast an year or two later. Shaheen’s fast tracking couple or so years ago was enough and maybe Haider’s now due to only considering the lack of stroke makers in team. Rest could have easily be given 1 or two seasons of domestics and they dont have to understand their game at international level.

39 vs 80 FC matches might not make much difference in development but 1 vs 20 surely does. 39 FC game and 80 odd is not the point, the point is that there should atleast be a minimum number before selecting someone. I think maybe around 15-20 FC matches are enough for the first stage of development which I have mentioned. Growth and development of tge first phase hits a plateau at one point and irrespective lf how much any player plays in domestic after that its not gonna change much regarding the first phase of development.

Again my question is which cricket nation in the whole world has implemented this fast tracking many youngsters policy in a successful manner? There are surely other weak domestic structures around the world and even they dont fast track so many youngsters

Why did WI let Chemar Holder play 20 odd FC matches before debut as their domestic structure is also surely not WC? They could have just fast tracked him at 19 years of age straight after the U19 world cup along with few others and they might have become world class players by now as per the fast tracking strategy. Thing is no country can afford development of player even for the first phase where he starts to understand his own game at international. There was a reason that Aussies like Ponting were surprised when they questioned Naseem and Musa debuting in Aus with not even handful of FC matches as no team does that irrespective of quality of domestic cricket.

I dont think any country even tried because irrespective of the quality of domestic cricket, game time helps the growth of ones game to a certain level which includes number of characteristics and yes for development upto international level there is more that will need to be done.

I definitely dont agree with how Saud Shakeel who could have been selected couple of years ago is still not in Pak national team. He is at the point where domestic cricket can possibly play a very limited role till now and is only a platform for him to perform and get selected for Pak team and start second phase of his development to become a decent international player. Two years ago he was perfectly ripe for international debut, if Pak cricket fraternity believed about his talent just like they did for Babar when he was 22.

If someone is considered a top talent I dont mind him getting selected despite not great FC numbers. Babar averaged around just 30 in FC cricket and Root averaged around mid 30s but despite everyone in the structure knowing they are going to play for their national team, they allowed them to play a decent amount of FC cricket and then selected them at them irrespective if the returns.

 

[Titan24]

Good post. Makes sense as well. I think England are kind of doing the same with Tom Banton just like Pakistan have taken a punt with Haider Ali and Shafique.

Banton has played 14 FC matches even though he is considered a white ball player as of now, around 20 List A games and 30 odd T20 games. There is a big difference if we compare it to young Pakistani counter parts. If we consider Saqib Mehmood the pacer who is another youngster, he has played 16 FC games, 20 odd list A games and 20 odd T20s.

I dont mind such induction of youngsters.

 

[Thunderbolt14]

Banton has played 14 FC matches even though he is considered a white ball player as of now, around 20 List A games and 30 odd T20 games. There is a big difference if we compare it to young Pakistani counter parts. If we consider Saqib Mehmood the pacer who is another youngster, he has played 16 FC games, 20 odd list A games and 20 odd T20s.

I dont mind such induction of youngsters.

Indeed, there’s a big difference, and even now people think Banton needs some more time in first class cricket.

Also, a lot of examples in this thread about the system not being good enough are in reference to the previous system where it was indeed easy to get by without have any “resistance training”, so to speak (the chess example, or with weight lifting).

The current system does indeed provide indicators of enough competition that international batsmen like Asad Shafiq are getting out for ducks regularly (which in the hate he gets, people take for granted, but it’s actually quite shocking) and international bowlers like Hassan Ali have to work very hard for their wickets (and he indeed is, he has to be so accurate that people are praising his form).

Abdullah Shafique and Haider Ali would definitely have benefited from some more first class cricket which is no longer as low quality as it used to be, and at the very least the four day game against New Zealand A.

 

[Titan24]

Indeed, there’s a big difference, and even now people think Banton needs some more time in first class cricket.

Also, a lot of examples in this thread about the system not being good enough are in reference to the previous system where it was indeed easy to get by without have any “resistance training”, so to speak (the chess example, or with weight lifting).

The current system does indeed provide indicators of enough competition that international batsmen like Asad Shafiq are getting out for ducks regularly (which in the hate he gets, people take for granted, but it’s actually quite shocking) and international bowlers like Hassan Ali have to work very hard for their wickets (and he indeed is, he has to be so accurate that people are praising his form).

Abdullah Shafique and Haider Ali would definitely have benefited from some more first class cricket which is no longer as low quality as it used to be, and at the very least the four day game against New Zealand A.

Absolutely.

If any such policy is to be applied, it should be fast tracking good talents to the main xi of domestic cricket. We have just seen Mubashir Khan getting promoted to main XI and by the time he is 21-22 hopefully he will have around 15-20 FC matches. Cameron Green has already got 21 FC matches at just 21 years of age and that too in the 6 team structure, which shows that his talent was recognized earlier and he got promoted to the main XI of domestic team sooner.

In previous Pak domestic structure talent recognition was ordinary and Abdullah Shafique has just played 1 FC match at 21 years of age. His talent should have been recognized earlier and he should have played 15-20 FC matches by now before debuting for Pakistan.

 

[Last Monetarist]

Both Abdullah Shafique and Haider Ali had no business to be selected for the pointless matches against Zimbabwe. They should have spent that time playing first class cricket and learning how to bat against the red ball.

Utter disgrace from the PCB and Misbah. It's laughable how the likes of Wasim Khan and Mani keep hiding behind Misbah and escape criticism, ultimately they are just as incompetent.

 

[shah_1]

Playing on slow and low bounce pitches is going to make them learn how to bat in NZ? Playing FC won't improve your skills at all. Playing 1 FC or 15 FC matches will make no difference. They will still commit on front foot before the delivery is bowled because it is managable in Pakistan and cycle goes on

We simply don't have the coaching methods in place to correct their techniques for quality fast bowling . Indians don't have access to gabba like pitches yet they don't problem against pace and bounce. The coaching starts from a very young age.

 

[Last Monetarist]

Playing on slow and low bounce pitches is going to make them learn how to bat in NZ? Playing FC won't improve your skills at all. Playing 1 FC or 15 FC matches will make no difference. They will still commit on front foot before the delivery is bowled because it is managable in Pakistan and cycle goes on

We simply don't have the coaching methods in place to correct their techniques for quality fast bowling . Indians don't have access to gabba like pitches yet they don't problem against pace and bounce. The coaching starts from a very young age.

The purpose of playing first-class cricket isn't learning how to bat in New Zealand or Australia, but to learn how to build an innings, improve concentration and shot selection. You don't learn those things while playing hit and giggle cricket. The longer they bat, even if on pitches with low bounce, the more rounded cricketers they become.

I am not expecting amazing results, but exposing young cricketers to an exclusive run of white ball matches means that one is giving up on development before starting. None of the Indian cricketers learned how to play cricket in the IPL, and those that did don't really excel at international level.

 

[ask_analyse_act]

Yes and most of the players in the 23-30 age group are also not international level. So what do we do now?

Only when the chances given , they can perform. Misbah and Waqar are seriously undercooked for coaching role. They cannot develop any batsman or bowler. These two were part of the team setup since 2010, can u name one player they developed who is international class and is still playing.

There are a number of players who they chopped changed and destroyed their careers.

MA on the other hand had three years tenure and he gave Babar , Imam, Fakhar, Shadab, Imad, Hasan Ali, so far

 

[Titan24]

The purpose of playing first-class cricket isn't learning how to bat in New Zealand or Australia, but to learn how to build an innings, improve concentration and shot selection. You don't learn those things while playing hit and giggle cricket. The longer they bat, even if on pitches with low bounce, the more rounded cricketers they become.

I am not expecting amazing results, but exposing young cricketers to an exclusive run of white ball matches means that one is giving up on development before starting. None of the Indian cricketers learned how to play cricket in the IPL, and those that did don't really excel at international level.

This.

 

[ask_analyse_act]

Selecting Abdullah Shafique after just one FC game is extreme of new level.

 

[ask_analyse_act]

The purpose of playing first-class cricket isn't learning how to bat in New Zealand or Australia, but to learn how to build an innings, improve concentration and shot selection. You don't learn those things while playing hit and giggle cricket. The longer they bat, even if on pitches with low bounce, the more rounded cricketers they become.

I am not expecting amazing results, but exposing young cricketers to an exclusive run of white ball matches means that one is giving up on development before starting. None of the Indian cricketers learned how to play cricket in the IPL, and those that did don't really excel at international level.

100% agree

 

[Titan24]

Really surprised that some pretty good posters think that playing FC cricket makes no difference to growth in any aspect. Looks like we wasted 6 years of Babar Azam, should have been brought into the international side when he was 16 years old and oozing talent as supposedly playing 20 odd FC matches, 50 odd list A matches served no purpose in his growth. Wasted few years of Amir as he took 50-60 odd FC wicket before his debut while Asif had around 200 wickets.

Then we are surprised to see when certain players dont live upto the hype without realizing that he was yet to be tested and live upto the hype even at domestic level by playing atleast some matches, let alone international.

Playing at junior level and then transitioning to the FC level is itself is a big step up which teaches youngsters a lot of things. How can playing against best cricketers in the country (Irrespective of their quality) cannot help you develop into something more than you were at junior level. Yes you might not become world class by only that or might not get acclimatized to other conditions around but, there is simply no way one can say FC cricket wont improve anything.

There is absolutely no way one can defend debuting players after 1 or so FC matches in any format. I have asked everyone on the forum its the right way to go about things to share atleast one example in last few decades where a team selects so many players with under 10 domestic matches. I am yet to see one across the board. Even Zimb, Ire select players with more experience despite the shortcomings of their system.

 

[Xoib]

Really surprised that some pretty good posters think that playing FC cricket makes no difference to growth in any aspect. Looks like we wasted 6 years of Babar Azam, should have been brought into the international side when he was 16 years old and oozing talent as supposedly playing 20 odd FC matches, 50 odd list A matches served no purpose in his growth. Wasted few years of Amir as he took 50-60 odd FC wicket before his debut while Asif had around 200 wickets.

Then we are surprised to see when certain players dont live upto the hype without realizing that he was yet to be tested and live upto the hype even at domestic level by playing atleast some matches, let alone international.

Playing at junior level and then transitioning to the FC level is itself is a big step up which teaches youngsters a lot of things. How can playing against best cricketers in the country (Irrespective of their quality) cannot help you develop into something more than you were at junior level. Yes you might not become world class by only that or might not get acclimatized to other conditions around but, there is simply no way one can say FC cricket wont improve anything.

There is absolutely no way one can defend debuting players after 1 or so FC matches in any format. I have asked everyone on the forum its the right way to go about things to share atleast one example in last few decades where a team selects so many players with under 10 domestic matches. I am yet to see one across the board. Even Zimb, Ire select players with more experience despite the shortcomings of their system.

Good Post.
Some of our international standard cricketers in the last decade Azhar Ali, Asad Shafiq (yes I know) yasir, abbas all came In to the side after prven fc performces. Even with Babar he had 2-3 seasons of FC expiernce.

 

[Kroll]

I don't think its as bad as its being made out to be. As you say, Shaheen came in 2017, then a couple of years later, Naseem, Hasnain and Musa came followed by Abdullah and Haider. So there's a been a bit of a staggered approach and we can see its not always both batters and bowlers coming in at the same time.

Promising youngsters are always part and parcel of most international teams regardless of their domestic setup. Also, T20 plays a large part in this, could we reasonably expect to see all these names if the only format was test and ODI?

Naseem was too young and too raw, same with Musa when they were thrown into test matches in Australia, that much is true but ideally their exposure should have been limited to T20 cricket only until they had enough FC experience to merit the test place.

As [MENTION=151861]Colorblind Genius[/MENTION] states, the Pakistan domestic structure is rank rotten, so there needs to be a balance. I don't think you can say with absolute conviction that X, Y and Z need to play for an X, Y and Z amount of time in domestics before they should be considered for international duty.

As far as I know, some of the previous greats of Pak cricket didn't play much domestic cricket before being handed their international caps and that's way before the advent of T20's. If the current crop are not producing, then looking at youngsters who are showing good potential is the right thing to do.

 

[shah_1]

The purpose of playing first-class cricket isn't learning how to bat in New Zealand or Australia, but to learn how to build an innings, improve concentration and shot selection. You don't learn those things while playing hit and giggle cricket. The longer they bat, even if on pitches with low bounce, the more rounded cricketers they become.

I am not expecting amazing results, but exposing young cricketers to an exclusive run of white ball matches means that one is giving up on development before starting. None of the Indian cricketers learned how to play cricket in the IPL, and those that did don't really excel at international level.

Did I say Abdullah Shafique should have debut that early? I'm saying simply that we are NOT SKILLED enough compared to four top teams. Their training methods are far more advance, better for development of youngsters. 1 FC or 15 FC matches, still our youngsters will lag behind England. India, Australia and NZ talent. Their system is million times better than us

It is sad watching our U19 batsmen compared to rest of the world, diabolical and shambolic level, just a reflection of the poor system.

 

[Titan24]

I don't think its as bad as its being made out to be. As you say, Shaheen came in 2017, then a couple of years later, Naseem, Hasnain and Musa came followed by Abdullah and Haider. So there's a been a bit of a staggered approach and we can see its not always both batters and bowlers coming in at the same time.

Promising youngsters are always part and parcel of most international teams regardless of their domestic setup. Also, T20 plays a large part in this, could we reasonably expect to see all these names if the only format was test and ODI?

Naseem was too young and too raw, same with Musa when they were thrown into test matches in Australia, that much is true but ideally their exposure should have been limited to T20 cricket only until they had enough FC experience to merit the test place.

As [MENTION=151861]Colorblind Genius[/MENTION] states, the Pakistan domestic structure is rank rotten, so there needs to be a balance. I don't think you can say with absolute conviction that X, Y and Z need to play for an X, Y and Z amount of time in domestics before they should be considered for international duty.

As far as I know, some of the previous greats of Pak cricket didn't play much domestic cricket before being handed their international caps and that's way before the advent of T20's. If the current crop are not producing, then looking at youngsters who are showing good potential is the right thing to do.

Shaheen is still under development. What was the point of fast tracking Naseem and Musa after 4-6 FC matches? Musa didnt even perform in 4 day cricket before his Test debut. I just dont understand the rush in getting every decent young player to play international cricket.

Promising youngsters are part of international teams but how many so many players in any squad with so less FC matches? Even in T20 cricket and white ball specialists played by some others have more FC matches in their telly.

There is no formula but there should be a system which sees the growth and development. Atleast couple of seasons in domestic cricket should be a basic thing. Also is Pakistant domestic system the only rotten one? I have already given example of Chemar Holder twice, debuting for WI after 20 FC matches. Is there any example of any cricketing nation successfully implementing the fast tracking approach of so many players? Or is this that we are trying to invent one?

One cant confuse the era of 90s with current one. Also how many youngsters were fast tracked? Wasim was one while others like Inzi, Waqar, Saeed etc came through with some domestic experience if I am not wrong. Yousuf, Shoaib and others also had good amount of FC experience. Further 90s had Imran and then Wasim which could have helped some youngsters more by directly playing under them, here we have an inexperienced coach, young captain and fast tracked youngsters. Not to forget the level of analysis now involved in the game, every new player is already well researched and is tested so any shortcomings are going to be captured straight away.

In last two decade any decent cricketer we have produced played some decent amount of domestic cricket. Bet is Babar, Amir and Asif. Even Hassan Ali had more than 100 FC wickets before his debut for Pakistan.

I understand this is one approach of doing it but, its a risky and a costly one with no past examples to get confidence from.

 

[Thunderbolt14]

Shaheen is still under development. What was the point of fast tracking Naseem and Musa after 4-6 FC matches? Musa didnt even perform in 4 day cricket before his Test debut. I just dont understand the rush in getting every decent young player to play international cricket.

Promising youngsters are part of international teams but how many so many players in any squad with so less FC matches? Even in T20 cricket and white ball specialists played by some others have more FC matches in their telly.

There is no formula but there should be a system which sees the growth and development. Atleast couple of seasons in domestic cricket should be a basic thing. Also is Pakistant domestic system the only rotten one? I have already given example of Chemar Holder twice, debuting for WI after 20 FC matches. Is there any example of any cricketing nation successfully implementing the fast tracking approach of so many players? Or is this that we are trying to invent one?

One cant confuse the era of 90s with current one. Also how many youngsters were fast tracked? Wasim was one while others like Inzi, Waqar, Saeed etc came through with some domestic experience if I am not wrong. Yousuf, Shoaib and others also had good amount of FC experience. Further 90s had Imran and then Wasim which could have helped some youngsters more by directly playing under them, here we have an inexperienced coach, young captain and fast tracked youngsters. Not to forget the level of analysis now involved in the game, every new player is already well researched and is tested so any shortcomings are going to be captured straight away.

In last two decade any decent cricketer we have produced played some decent amount of domestic cricket. Bet is Babar, Amir and Asif. Even Hassan Ali had more than 100 FC wickets before his debut for Pakistan.

I understand this is one approach of doing it but, its a risky and a costly one with no past examples to get confidence from.

Very very good posts on this thread. I think this is the primary failure of Misbah as Chief Selector - cases like Mohammad Irfan being recalled might get more attention, but Misbah has done his unintentional best to ruin the careers of folks like Abdullah Shafique who is missing out on one of the most important years of his life right now - this would have been a transformative first class season for him, playing all games for the Central Punjab first XI.

On the other side of the coin, it also meant Saud Shakeel got ignored, stalling his career development as he’s already matured enough for the first class level.

The hope is that we get some more level headed selections from Mohammad Wasim, rather than a case of two extremes.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

So here is a thing; Is Abdullah Shafique more talented than Babar Azam was at 20-21? If not than why was Babar not fast tracked into national team at 19-20 years of age (His hype was there since his U16 days). Why Babar got his debut after around 20 odd FC matches and 40, 50 odd list A games at 22 years of age? Was it wrong to not pick him up straight from U19 because as per your logic domestic cricket plays no role in any sort of development and he might have been better off playing international cricket straight away.

Thing is you cant start to pick talented club cricketers or U16, U19 or so cricketers straight to the national team and develop them over there. International cricket is meant to teach anyone basics but yes if someone has played enough domestic cricket that he atleast knows the basics, he can be brought into national team for better development if his potential is recognized.

I never suggested to send them back now as it will impact their confidence. In my opinion atleast few of them could have been selected atleast an year or two later. Shaheen’s fast tracking couple or so years ago was enough and maybe Haider’s now due to only considering the lack of stroke makers in team. Rest could have easily be given 1 or two seasons of domestics and they dont have to understand their game at international level.

39 vs 80 FC matches might not make much difference in development but 1 vs 20 surely does. 39 FC game and 80 odd is not the point, the point is that there should atleast be a minimum number before selecting someone. I think maybe around 15-20 FC matches are enough for the first stage of development which I have mentioned. Growth and development of tge first phase hits a plateau at one point and irrespective lf how much any player plays in domestic after that its not gonna change much regarding the first phase of development.

Again my question is which cricket nation in the whole world has implemented this fast tracking many youngsters policy in a successful manner? There are surely other weak domestic structures around the world and even they dont fast track so many youngsters

Why did WI let Chemar Holder play 20 odd FC matches before debut as their domestic structure is also surely not WC? They could have just fast tracked him at 19 years of age straight after the U19 world cup along with few others and they might have become world class players by now as per the fast tracking strategy. Thing is no country can afford development of player even for the first phase where he starts to understand his own game at international. There was a reason that Aussies like Ponting were surprised when they questioned Naseem and Musa debuting in Aus with not even handful of FC matches as no team does that irrespective of quality of domestic cricket.

I dont think any country even tried because irrespective of the quality of domestic cricket, game time helps the growth of ones game to a certain level which includes number of characteristics and yes for development upto international level there is more that will need to be done.

I definitely dont agree with how Saud Shakeel who could have been selected couple of years ago is still not in Pak national team. He is at the point where domestic cricket can possibly play a very limited role till now and is only a platform for him to perform and get selected for Pak team and start second phase of his development to become a decent international player. Two years ago he was perfectly ripe for international debut, if Pak cricket fraternity believed about his talent just like they did for Babar when he was 22.

If someone is considered a top talent I dont mind him getting selected despite not great FC numbers. Babar averaged around just 30 in FC cricket and Root averaged around mid 30s but despite everyone in the structure knowing they are going to play for their national team, they allowed them to play a decent amount of FC cricket and then selected them at them irrespective if the returns.

Really surprised that some pretty good posters think that playing FC cricket makes no difference to growth in any aspect. Looks like we wasted 6 years of Babar Azam, should have been brought into the international side when he was 16 years old and oozing talent as supposedly playing 20 odd FC matches, 50 odd list A matches served no purpose in his growth. Wasted few years of Amir as he took 50-60 odd FC wicket before his debut while Asif had around 200 wickets.

Then we are surprised to see when certain players dont live upto the hype without realizing that he was yet to be tested and live upto the hype even at domestic level by playing atleast some matches, let alone international.

Playing at junior level and then transitioning to the FC level is itself is a big step up which teaches youngsters a lot of things. How can playing against best cricketers in the country (Irrespective of their quality) cannot help you develop into something more than you were at junior level. Yes you might not become world class by only that or might not get acclimatized to other conditions around but, there is simply no way one can say FC cricket wont improve anything.

There is absolutely no way one can defend debuting players after 1 or so FC matches in any format. I have asked everyone on the forum its the right way to go about things to share atleast one example in last few decades where a team selects so many players with under 10 domestic matches. I am yet to see one across the board. Even Zimb, Ire select players with more experience despite the shortcomings of their system.

OK so lets go one at a time.
First, Baber Azam is a classic AND exceptional case.

Two things played their role - First, the "hype building" around a youngster is so common among many pak fans that you can't really tell if it's valid anymore.

On one hand Baber was hyped you say? But on the other hand, he was a reject by many selectors. Which one would you take?

Second, and I think you sorta answered your own question. What is the definition of "fast tracking"? A certain # of FC games? 20 you say, and 50 odd List A games?
Obviously, we can't set a hard coded rule here but you must understand that the dynamics of Pakistan cricket are very unique when you compare it with the other "weak" domestic boards.

Look back to about 40 years of history and you will probably find a theme, that we generally have 3 traditional ways of players getting into the national team.

1 - Domestic product on Merit
2 - Fast Tracking
3 - Nepotism (a thin slice in the pie).

Both 1 and 2 clicked simultaneously, (Wasim Waqar and Inzi made it through the fast tracking route and trained at the job, while the rest were mostly merit). and we had an absolute world beater of a team in the 90's

The gradual decline started from the 2000's when that generation of ace cricketers got on their knees and we failed to continue the fast tracking route. We simply didn't have those set of expert eyes of Imran Javed and Sarfaraz to find the next gen of Wasim Waqar and Inzi.

Think again about the dynamics of Pak cricket. If there was no fast tracking of the RIGHT CANDIDATES we wouldn't have had that great of a team of 90's.
Fortunately or unfortunately, this is what has worked for us.

Again, the slow oozing influx from option 1 and 3 above wasnt enough to retain the standard of 90's. Our domestic cricket does not produce that many great players on consistent basis to have a solid national team. We MUST find those needles in the haystack and fast track them to be trained at the job.

How is our domestic atmosphere different, you may ask?
There is definitely a pretty daunting factor of corruption for starters. And I know this for a fact that (and not trying to impress or anything) but I have played First Class cricket and Quaid-e-Azam trophy in Pakistan. I also have the honor of representing all Pakistan college 11 vs All Sri Lanka college eleven in an international game.
Weak bowlers are pitched against sifaarshi batsmen, fielders are paid to let go of the boundaries, wicket keepers purposely miss the run outs/stumping chances; all in an effort underline a great batting performance by weak and corrupt batsman.
Same goes for the bowlers, third class bowlers are pitched against the tail enders who get perks to give away their wickets, thus making the bowler look good on the paper.
Many, many promising young kids are chased away by pedophiles in our domestic cricket administration. Some get their future slaughtered by not having any influence. There is quite a rampant drug abuse in our domestic cricket. Many guys pay an out of pocket cost/bribe (a few 100's thousand Rs) to play 10 odd FC games at the expense of a talented player, just to be able to apply for a visa to play Jr. Country cricket in England. Few who do get visa, end up doing illegal odd jobs in Europe. The corruption in our domestic cricket used to run so deep that if I talk openly about it and name a few names, I will probably be banned.
I hope it's has improved now, and I have nothing but good wishes for Pak cricket.

So getting back to the point, fast tracking is our need due to our domestic cricket dynamics, but it's an EXTREMELY difficult task to pin down the right candidate.
Even Imran Khan flunked when he "fast tracked" Zahid Fazal and Iqbal Sikander in the 92 WC.

Here you have Waqar Yonus fast tracking Musa Khan, isn't that an irony?

I think what we differ in is the threshold of exactly what would be "fast tracking", and I don't think it can easily be put in numbers.
A certain # of FC and List A games? Probably not bad for starters but won't always work.

There could be players who will show signs of great talent that is above and beyond domestic level only after a few FC games, and there will be those who will shine after being given a good grind in the domestic.

There will be and there has been, quite a few of those who have been Tarzans in the domestic but they become flying ducks in the international arena. And this is one of the reasons why I keep saying that domestic machoism should not be the only criteria for selection.


For the last decade or two, we have shut down the fast tracking route. And it's because of the reasons said above, we don't the eyes to pick the talent, and we don't have the proper support to train the young guns at job.

After a long time, we have fast tracked a couple of players after a huge fan pressure on selectors, so I am supporting the idea albeit that we don't have the proper support in place to train them at job.

On the hindsight, if we had kept Abdullah and Haider and whoever to be grinded some more in the domestic then you would probably need to retain the likes of Shaob Maliks and Asad Shafiques and Ahmad Shehzads and Umer Akmals and Kamran Akmals, and Khurram Manzoors etc in the team. Would you rather wanted that?

 

[Last Monetarist]

Did I say Abdullah Shafique should have debut that early? I'm saying simply that we are NOT SKILLED enough compared to four top teams. Their training methods are far more advance, better for development of youngsters. 1 FC or 15 FC matches, still our youngsters will lag behind England. India, Australia and NZ talent. Their system is million times better than us

It is sad watching our U19 batsmen compared to rest of the world, diabolical and shambolic level, just a reflection of the poor system.

I totally agree. Our domestic system is mediocre and consequently produces sub-standard cricketers. That won't change till grassroots coaching and facilities at club and school level improve, which will probably take a couple of generations.

Nonetheless, we exacerbate the problem by pigeonholing young players in white ball cricket.

 

[Last Monetarist]

Both 1 and 2 clicked simultaneously, (Wasim Waqar and Inzi made it through the fast tracking route and trained at the job, while the rest were mostly merit). and we had an absolute world beater of a team in the 90's

The gradual decline started from the 2000's when that generation of ace cricketers got on their knees and we failed to continue the fast tracking route. We simply didn't have those set of expert eyes of Imran Javed and Sarfaraz to find the next gen of Wasim Waqar and Inzi.

While I agree broadly with the points you are making, fast-tracking wasn't the reason that the likes of Wasim and Waqar succeeded. They primarily learned to bowl in county cricket.

Whereas, young batsmen such as Inzamam, Saeed Anwar, Aamir Sohail did not learn to bat at international level but at their respective departments (regardless of the level of quality). Some of the old Wills Cup matches were not many steps removed from international cricket, and the ones that were televised during the 80s and 90s attracted massive interest.

All that changed with the advent of the 2000s as the quality of domestic cricket fell off a cliff. It will take a decade under the new structure, along with investment in grassroots infrastructure and coaching, to undo the damage.

 

[Markhor]

I think some are getting sidetracked here. Obviously Pakistan's domestic system, while significantly improved under the new format, is still behind Australia, India and England due to pitches, quality of coaching etc.

However look at our few proven performers in Tests over last 10-15 years like Mohammad Asif, Misbah-ul-Haq, Azhar Ali, Babar Azam, Yasir Shah and Mohammad Abbas to name a few. These guys grafted for years in FC cricket before earning national selection. Babar had two good FC seasons followed by a strong A tour to England in 2016 before his Test debut. Although it took time to settle in Tests, he immediately made an impact in white ball cricket. We didn't even feel Saeed Ajmal's absence in Tests as Yasir was ready made. Abbas fired straightaway too.

Cricket is about repetition - executing your core skills repeatedly season after season. Batsmen must maximise their time in the middle and gain experience of batting for long periods against different bowlers in different conditions. Bowlers must learn how to bowl long spells and the art of working over a batsman. That fact doesn't change if you have a strong or weak domestic system !

If you keep fast tracking kids prematurely in their development phase - then don't complain when Misbah and co keep hiding behind the excuse of rebuilding and transition phase.

Not all domestic chart toppers will make it. But keep going down the list and you'll find someone who will. That's a better guarantee of success than misguided 90s-era fairytales of plucking kids from obscurity. It may have worked for Wasim Akram but how'd that work for Hasan Raza, Salim Elahi, Zahid Fazal, Irfan Fazil, Qaiser Abbas and Shadab Kabir ?

 

[Colorblind Genius]

The purpose of playing first-class cricket isn't learning how to bat in New Zealand or Australia, but to learn how to build an innings, improve concentration and shot selection. You don't learn those things while playing hit and giggle cricket. The longer they bat, even if on pitches with low bounce, the more rounded cricketers they become.

I am not expecting amazing results, but exposing young cricketers to an exclusive run of white ball matches means that one is giving up on development before starting. None of the Indian cricketers learned how to play cricket in the IPL, and those that did don't really excel at international level.

Theoretically correct and sounds good to the ears but cricket dynamics are greatly changing.

The entire definition of "Building and playing a long innings" has been changed.

T20 has screwed up with the mind of modern day batsmen. They simply don't last long enough.
When was the last time you saw an opener carrying his bat? When was the last time you saw the last partnership adding a 100 runs?
Test matches hardly ever see a draw results these days. Most games are done within 3 to 4 days.

This pace has changed the dynamics.
And even if you learn to build and play long innings in Pak domestic (that you must), it's just not good enough to be of international quality.
Our domestic bowling and fielding standard is so weak and so broken that your simply don't face the kind of strong resistance to test your skill on the next level -IF you are extra talented that is.

You had Javed, Inzi, Yosuf and Younis who were genuinely skillful batsmen that could play long innings with authority. But that's what? 4 batsman in 40 years that our domestic has produced, and we are having an extra loaded focus to grind our players in such atmosphere?

I am all for domestic grinding; however, we MUST improve the standard of domestic cricket, otherwise, exercising by lifting tooth picks and hoping to become a body builder is wishful thinking.

Our domestic talent kids can perhaps be send to more A international tours so that they could potentially become more battle hardened under different playing conditions and against different kinds of bowling attacks rather than over emphasizing on domestic cricket.

 

[Titan24]

I think some are getting sidetracked here. Obviously Pakistan's domestic system, while significantly improved under the new format, is still behind Australia, India and England due to pitches, quality of coaching etc.

However look at our few proven performers in Tests over last 10-15 years like Mohammad Asif, Misbah-ul-Haq, Azhar Ali, Babar Azam, Yasir Shah and Mohammad Abbas to name a few. These guys grafted for years in FC cricket before earning national selection. Babar had two good FC seasons followed by a strong A tour to England in 2016 before his Test debut. Although it took time to settle in Tests, he immediately made an impact in white ball cricket. We didn't even feel Saeed Ajmal's absence in Tests as Yasir was ready made. Abbas fired straightaway too.

Cricket is about repetition - executing your core skills repeatedly season after season. Batsmen must maximise their time in the middle and gain experience of batting for long periods against different bowlers in different conditions. Bowlers must learn how to bowl long spells and the art of working over a batsman. That fact doesn't change if you have a strong or weak domestic system !

If you keep fast tracking kids prematurely in their development phase - then don't complain when Misbah and co keep hiding behind the excuse of rebuilding and transition phase.

Not all domestic chart toppers will make it. But keep going down the list and you'll find someone who will. That's a better guarantee of success than misguided 90s-era fairytales of plucking kids from obscurity. It may have worked for Wasim Akram but how'd that work for Hasan Raza, Salim Elahi, Zahid Fazal, Irfan Fazil, Qaiser Abbas and Shadab Kabir ?

Well put.

 

[Titan24]

OK so lets go one at a time.
First, Baber Azam is a classic AND exceptional case.

Two things played their role - First, the "hype building" around a youngster is so common among many pak fans that you can't really tell if it's valid anymore.

On one hand Baber was hyped you say? But on the other hand, he was a reject by many selectors. Which one would you take?

Second, and I think you sorta answered your own question. What is the definition of "fast tracking"? A certain # of FC games? 20 you say, and 50 odd List A games?
Obviously, we can't set a hard coded rule here but you must understand that the dynamics of Pakistan cricket are very unique when you compare it with the other "weak" domestic boards.

Look back to about 40 years of history and you will probably find a theme, that we generally have 3 traditional ways of players getting into the national team.

1 - Domestic product on Merit
2 - Fast Tracking
3 - Nepotism (a thin slice in the pie).

Both 1 and 2 clicked simultaneously, (Wasim Waqar and Inzi made it through the fast tracking route and trained at the job, while the rest were mostly merit). and we had an absolute world beater of a team in the 90's

The gradual decline started from the 2000's when that generation of ace cricketers got on their knees and we failed to continue the fast tracking route. We simply didn't have those set of expert eyes of Imran Javed and Sarfaraz to find the next gen of Wasim Waqar and Inzi.

Think again about the dynamics of Pak cricket. If there was no fast tracking of the RIGHT CANDIDATES we wouldn't have had that great of a team of 90's.
Fortunately or unfortunately, this is what has worked for us.

Again, the slow oozing influx from option 1 and 3 above wasnt enough to retain the standard of 90's. Our domestic cricket does not produce that many great players on consistent basis to have a solid national team. We MUST find those needles in the haystack and fast track them to be trained at the job.

How is our domestic atmosphere different, you may ask?
There is definitely a pretty daunting factor of corruption for starters. And I know this for a fact that (and not trying to impress or anything) but I have played First Class cricket and Quaid-e-Azam trophy in Pakistan. I also have the honor of representing all Pakistan college 11 vs All Sri Lanka college eleven in an international game.
Weak bowlers are pitched against sifaarshi batsmen, fielders are paid to let go of the boundaries, wicket keepers purposely miss the run outs/stumping chances; all in an effort underline a great batting performance by weak and corrupt batsman.
Same goes for the bowlers, third class bowlers are pitched against the tail enders who get perks to give away their wickets, thus making the bowler look good on the paper.
Many, many promising young kids are chased away by pedophiles in our domestic cricket administration. Some get their future slaughtered by not having any influence. There is quite a rampant drug abuse in our domestic cricket. Many guys pay an out of pocket cost/bribe (a few 100's thousand Rs) to play 10 odd FC games at the expense of a talented player, just to be able to apply for a visa to play Jr. Country cricket in England. Few who do get visa, end up doing illegal odd jobs in Europe. The corruption in our domestic cricket used to run so deep that if I talk openly about it and name a few names, I will probably be banned.
I hope it's has improved now, and I have nothing but good wishes for Pak cricket.

So getting back to the point, fast tracking is our need due to our domestic cricket dynamics, but it's an EXTREMELY difficult task to pin down the right candidate.
Even Imran Khan flunked when he "fast tracked" Zahid Fazal and Iqbal Sikander in the 92 WC.

Here you have Waqar Yonus fast tracking Musa Khan, isn't that an irony?

I think what we differ in is the threshold of exactly what would be "fast tracking", and I don't think it can easily be put in numbers.
A certain # of FC and List A games? Probably not bad for starters but won't always work.

There could be players who will show signs of great talent that is above and beyond domestic level only after a few FC games, and there will be those who will shine after being given a good grind in the domestic.

There will be and there has been, quite a few of those who have been Tarzans in the domestic but they become flying ducks in the international arena. And this is one of the reasons why I keep saying that domestic machoism should not be the only criteria for selection.


For the last decade or two, we have shut down the fast tracking route. And it's because of the reasons said above, we don't the eyes to pick the talent, and we don't have the proper support to train the young guns at job.

After a long time, we have fast tracked a couple of players after a huge fan pressure on selectors, so I am supporting the idea albeit that we don't have the proper support in place to train them at job.

On the hindsight, if we had kept Abdullah and Haider and whoever to be grinded some more in the domestic then you would probably need to retain the likes of Shaob Maliks and Asad Shafiques and Ahmad Shehzads and Umer Akmals and Kamran Akmals, and Khurram Manzoors etc in the team. Would you rather wanted that?

Firstly thanks for a healthy discussion and putting your points across pretty well.

I understand the excitement of fast tracking youngsters but, at the same time I feel its not a process which can be used to as go to one in a continuous manner. As I have said there is no precedent of success in such process across the cricketing world in last couple of decades. Yes in 90s Pak fast track some players but, a lot of different things were at play in that era, I have talked about in my reply to Kroll. I am not saying that domestic stats should be the only thing used to identify players, player can be picked early in the main XIs and domestic cricket can be used as the tool to help them to get comfortable with their own game and grow.

Regarding the argument of weak domestic structure as I have said in my previous numerous posts, I dont see countries with even weaker domestic structure following this strategy.

Yes it can be some sort of invention in the current era and as a Pak fan I hope it gives some positive results going forward.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

Firstly thanks for a healthy discussion and putting your points across pretty well.

I understand the excitement of fast tracking youngsters but, at the same time I feel its not a process which can be used to as go to one in a continuous manner. As I have said there is no precedent of success in such process across the cricketing world in last couple of decades. Yes in 90s Pak fast track some players but, a lot of different things were at play in that era, I have talked about in my reply to Kroll. I am not saying that domestic stats should be the only thing used to identify players, player can be picked early in the main XIs and domestic cricket can be used as the tool to help them to get comfortable with their own game and grow.

Regarding the argument of weak domestic structure as I have said in my previous numerous posts, I dont see countries with even weaker domestic structure following this strategy.

Yes it can be some sort of invention in the current era and as a Pak fan I hope it gives some positive results going forward.

No, it's actually very enjoyable to have a good discussion on cricket, especially Pakistan cricket. And perhaps this is the whole idea of having this great forum.
It's great to have a scholarly discussion in a friendly atmosphere where not only we can understand each other's point of view, but also look deep into the difference of opinion, and actually learn a thing or two from each other. This may also support in refining the solutions once we have identified the problems.

Over and over it has been proven that there are folks here on this forum who seem to have a lot better understanding of this animal that we call Pakistan cricket, they not only have better ideas, intelligence, analytical ability and providing solutions but also they seem to be better qualified when compared to many of those daft who are actually placed on top posts at PCB.