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What do you think of Two Nation Theory? Has it failed or worked out well?

MSaad1237

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Two Nation Theory:.

This theory supported the proposal that Muslims and Hindus should be two separate nations. It is the ideology that the main identity and unifying aspect of Muslims in the Indian subcontinent is their religion, rather than their language or ethnicity.


It also says that Muslims and Hindus basically can't live together and should form 2 Separate Nations. Pakistan was formed for the Muslims of the Subcontinent on the basis of 2 Nation Theory, but if you look at it, MORE Muslims live in India than in Pakistan, also Muslims and Hindus (or Indians and Pakistanis) work together in Gulf Countries and Great Britain, also share same apartments even rooms and have no issues with it.. Even our actors/actresses go to India and perform there without any issues.


We are living in 21st Century, year 2015 the era of Globalization, is stuff like 2 Nation Theory still applicable??
Why can't Pakistan be a country for Pakistanis rather than Indian Muslims??

I'm a Pakistani btw, and I love my country cause its my motherland, I think since the partition has happened now Pakistan should be a country for Pakistanis , where everyone has equal rights.. Pakistanis are still different to Indians in lot of ways, even Indian Muslims and Pakistani Muslims are different.


Please give your views, thanks..
 
I'm a Pakistani btw, and I love my country cause its my motherland, I think since the partition has happened now Pakistan should be a country for Pakistanis , where everyone has equal rights.. Pakistanis are still different to Indians in lot of ways, even Indian Muslims and Pakistani Muslims are different.


Please give your views, thanks..

Holy %^*#! I cant believe I have an evil twin who advocates for equal rights for all Pakistanis irrespective of their religion.

[utube]dqGoiQifp9k[/utube]​
 
If the migrated Muslims are still calling themselves Muhajir and not Pakistani, even Bangladesh separated from us, so how can you justify 2 Nations theory?? It sounds more like 'Mullah Logic' than anything else..


But idea of Pakistan is still justifiable as its geography is somewhat different from India..
 
If the migrated Muslims are still calling themselves Muhajir and not Pakistani, even Bangladesh separated from us, so how can you justify 2 Nations theory?? It sounds more like 'Mullah Logic' than anything else..


But idea of Pakistan is still justifiable as its geography is somewhat different from India..

Migrated people call themselves Pakistanis

Muhajir does not literally mean a mohajir in this context

it is similar to a Punjabi or Pathan. Just an ethnic grouping term. ideally none should be there

also.. Bangladesh independence does not do anything to weaken or destroy 2 naton theory (assuming you say it was valid before that). The 2 nation theory said that subcontinent Muslims were a different nation. Not a state or country but a different nation. Bangladesh is still an independent Muslm country. If Bangladesh had rejoined India then you could say that nation theory died or doesnt exist
 
in any case i feel subcontinent should have been 5 or so different countries and be a bloc like western europe or the carribean countries etc
 
in any case i feel subcontinent should have been 5 or so different countries and be a bloc like western europe or the carribean countries etc

To be fair, the British played a large part in India's unification. They get criticized for their horrible treatment of the locals (rightfully) but India would never have existed as it is today without them. The last proper (ie a solid state) unification of what is known today as India was 2000 years ago with the Maurya.
 
It also says that Muslims and Hindus basically can't live together and should form 2 Separate Nations.

I have read a bit but not really an expert on this but I think this line of thinking brought the current days for Pakistan. Many may not want to see it that way but when you say that you can't live with other people unless your religion is in majority then as nation, you are likely to go in certain direction.

If you can't live as minority then you are surely not going to allow minorities to live well when you get into majority. That's the way I see it. Pakistan was made for Muslims of SC because they couldn't live well as minority. That was the thought process. Well, Islam is also divided in Sunni and Shia Islam. So with earlier though process, it's not surprising to see Sunni Islam now trying to dominate in Pakistan and Shias getting targeted.

I don't know if that exist in India but they do have issue with riots where Hindus and Muslims kill each other. Question should be - Taken together, Muslims(Shia+Sunni) live a safer life in Pakistan or in India. There is no point in taking cherry picked 10-15 years. This question should be asked after 100 years to get a fair idea. Success should be measured in 5-6 generations.

I recon, the total population of Muslims in SC would have been pretty large. I am not sure about how much this minority issue would have been a true problem in longer periods. There were some issues at that time for sure otherwise a demand of country based on religion wouldn't have come. Anyway, Pakistan for Muslims of SC was just a sales pitch for getting a country otherwise doors won't be shut for others to come in later. Israel is only other country formed on basis of religion and they take all Jews any time. Local landlords in Pakistan fully supported a new country because they would have lost everything. Based on that I have read, landlords still have their lands so they got the best deal due to this new country.
 
Imagine blacks getting a separate country in US because they were treated badly. In this hypothetical scenario, it's likely that blacks won't be really tolerant to non-blacks after getting a new country. They are also likely to get into an argument about who purer black down the line. Not guaranteed but a likely progression. It won't create a very good social scenario. Forming a country based on religion or race is likely to create own set of problems. Just my line of thoughts here based on human nature. I don't mean any offence. After all , Pakistan is your country now.

I don't think that forming a country based on religion or race is going to be a great idea but to judge failure or success, you need to give some time. After 100 years , you can judge. Now having said all this, it's meaningless to debate failure or success of concept which formed your country. It exist and that's a reality. You didn't play any part in making it but you are born in Pakistan.

I see many PPers debating what was the vision when Pakistan was formed. I think it's meaningless. Vision of 3 generations back is not important. Only one thing matters and that will be the vision of current generation. Collectively you do what you think is the best for country right now. It may differ or remain same as earlier vision but it should be the vision of current generation. That's what matters.
 
Migrated people call themselves Pakistanis

Muhajir does not literally mean a mohajir in this context

it is similar to a Punjabi or Pathan. Just an ethnic grouping term. ideally none should be there

also.. Bangladesh independence does not do anything to weaken or destroy 2 naton theory (assuming you say it was valid before that). The 2 nation theory said that subcontinent Muslims were a different nation. Not a state or country but a different nation. Bangladesh is still an independent Muslm country. If Bangladesh had rejoined India then you could say that nation theory died or doesnt exist



Lol you're wrong bro, Muhajirs = Those who have migrated from India to Pakistan (they are not 1 ethnic group or didn't arrive from 1 part only) Its not a ethnic grouping term..

Please tell me what about the 20 Crore Muslims who are living in India with all religious communities?? Whats the justification for Pakistan then when it was formed for Muslims of Subcontinent??
 
In my opinion in a way the creation of Israel is also on the basis of 2 Nation Theory, the Jews didn't want to live with the Arabs muslims in the middle East and created a Separate Homeland on the basis of Religion in the Middle East?? Do you justify this??
 
I have read a bit but not really an expert on this but I think this line of thinking brought the current days for Pakistan. Many may not want to see it that way but when you say that you can't live with other people unless your religion is in majority then as nation, you are likely to go in certain direction.

If you can't live as minority then you are surely not going to allow minorities to live well when you get into majority. That's the way I see it. Pakistan was made for Muslims of SC because they couldn't live well as minority. That was the thought process. Well, Islam is also divided in Sunni and Shia Islam. So with earlier though process, it's not surprising to see Sunni Islam now trying to dominate in Pakistan and Shias getting targeted.

I don't know if that exist in India but they do have issue with riots where Hindus and Muslims kill each other. Question should be - Taken together, Muslims(Shia+Sunni) live a safer life in Pakistan or in India. There is no point in taking cherry picked 10-15 years. This question should be asked after 100 years to get a fair idea. Success should be measured in 5-6 generations.

I recon, the total population of Muslims in SC would have been pretty large. I am not sure about how much this minority issue would have been a true problem in longer periods. There were some issues at that time for sure otherwise a demand of country based on religion wouldn't have come. Anyway, Pakistan for Muslims of SC was just a sales pitch for getting a country otherwise doors won't be shut for others to come in later. Israel is only other country formed on basis of religion and they take all Jews any time. Local landlords in Pakistan fully supported a new country because they would have lost everything. Based on that I have read, landlords still have their lands so they got the best deal due to this new country.


[/QUOTE]Imagine blacks getting a separate country in US because they were treated badly. In this hypothetical scenario, it's likely that blacks won't be really tolerant to non-blacks after getting a new country. They are also likely to get into an argument about who purer black down the line. Not guaranteed but a likely progression. It won't create a very good social scenario. Forming a country based on religion or race is likely to create own set of problems. Just my line of thoughts here based on human nature. I don't mean any offence. After all , Pakistan is your country now.

I don't think that forming a country based on religion or race is going to be a great idea but to judge failure or success, you need to give some time. After 100 years , you can judge. Now having said all this, it's meaningless to debate failure or success of concept which formed your country. It exist and that's a reality. You didn't play any part in making it but you are born in Pakistan.

I see many PPers debating what was the vision when Pakistan was formed. I think it's meaningless. Vision of 3 generations back is not important. Only one thing matters and that will be the vision of current generation. Collectively you do what you think is the best for country right now. It may differ or remain same as earlier vision but it should be the vision of current generation. That's what matters.[/QUOTE]






I pretty much agree with you bro,, question is How can we Justify Pakistan now?? How can we find its true identity and write its history???

I think its best to call Pakistan the country for Pakistanis and not for SC Muslims, cause that theory has failed IMO.
 
In my opinion in a way the creation of Israel is also on the basis of 2 Nation Theory, the Jews didn't want to live with the Arabs muslims in the middle East and created a Separate Homeland on the basis of Religion in the Middle East?? Do you justify this??

Entire chain of thought process, where you create a country based on religion, will have it's own set of problems. Israel is also facing issues here. Israel and Pakistan didn't come exactly the same way but both were formed based on religion.

I am no one to justify for Israel or Pakistan. I was just presenting my view point about how I see this entire thing. Bear in mind that, I didn't know much about Pakistan 1 year ago so my views are still going to throw some weird stuff. I know the history of Israel much better than Pakistan but I think it was a wrong choice to have a homeland in that region. All Jews could have moved to US. On per capita basis, they have contributed the most by a big margin in development of human race in the last 100 years. Having them all here would have been better for our country and better for all Jews as well. I live in Jewish dominated area but my views are not influenced due to that.
 
I pretty much agree with you bro,, question is How can we Justify Pakistan now?? How can we find its true identity and write its history???

I think its best to call Pakistan the country for Pakistanis and not for SC Muslims, cause that theory has failed IMO.

When majority in your generation think the same then this will become a non-issue. No will bother with how the country was formed. I won't call it fail concept yet. As I said, I will like to wait for 5-6 generations even though I don't like this chain of thoughts for forming a country based on religion.

I also think that you don't really have to argue anymore for Pakistan being a home for SC Muslims. It's pointless now. It may have been used as slogan 50 years ago despite not really being true even back then. But right now, Pakistan exists for all Pakistanis, nothing more & nothing less. Whoever is outside, remains outside and whoever is inside , remains inside. You can't rewrite history but it's great that you are trying to learn from history.

You don't have to justify Pakistan. It's history. Nations get formed and boundaries keeps changing. You may agree or disagree but history is history. Just make sure to know your history but you can't justify the decision taken by earlier generations. You can only do your bit to shape up current generation. You are just one person but everyone counts.
 
The whole premise of the OP is merely an aesthetic overview. Retrospective in nature, thus discounts some of the crucial historical factors that led up to the formation of the Two-Nation Theory and its supposed implementation in 1947.

Your understanding of the Two-Nation theory is also very basic. The theory was simply 'Muslims and Hindus can't live with each other' - yet its implementation was more diverse and was concerned primarily with the concept of assuring Muslim self-determination, as part of the movement to realise Muslim political rights in the subcontinent. Majority of the literature supports the view that the role of 'Pakistan' as a separate sovereign state itself - despite being considered the golden achievement of the 2NT, was not the aim of the Muslim League leaders and Quaid e Azam himself (who were supposedly aiming for a special rights/status of the Muslims of India within United India - something along the lines of Ireland and UK, Quebec in Canada).

In order to fully assess the efficacy of the concept, it is pertinent to return to the history and socio-pol econ conditions, as well as the vision of the Two-Nation Theory itself. The coining of the Muslim identity from 1857 onwards, the struggle for Muslim rights, the efforts to reconcile various ways of ensuring Muslim self-determination apart from blatant Partition, the political parlaying and framing of the Muslim question by the Congress and the British, etcetera.

Very easy to look back and say 'oh this happened. Why? Doesn't make sense in this day and age.' You can take this holistic approach and ask a number of questions from here onwards - Why was the Soviet Union an entity, a force to be reckoned with for nearly half a century if it's end was to simply implode under its own weight and wither away? Why is Marxist/Communism still being taught in schools if it is supposedly 'proven' that these theories make no sense? But once you look deeper into it, the 2NT seems a perfectly logical political philosophy in the dawn era of nationalism and ethno-nationalism. Look at the global conflicts today, you can see that despite all neoliberal institutions and their transnational development programs, we've not all moved on from the sheer importance of nationalism and securing political rights within territorial bounds.
 
A very impressive commentary from blinding light. Indeed, it is necessary to historically contextualise the two nation theory, as well as being alert to the many the factors that ultimately shaped the Pakistan demand and its eventual creation.
 
So was it really a Two Nation Theory or just a bargaining chip that eventually lead to partition because of political brinkmanship by various players.
 
Funnily enough it worked out pretty well for the Indians who were against the Two Nation ideology. Not so much for Pakistanis though.
 
Do remember, it has been 68 years since that date, So whatever happened, good or bad cannot be blamed on that one decision alone. The actions of 2-3 generations after that date also contributed a lot to the present. And your actions will again contribute to the future. You can take the best of decisions and still ruin it if after making the choice, you then go ahead and make some further bad choices. And you can make a really bad choice and then make things better by your actions and choices in the future. Nothing is set in stone.

Having said that, i am opposed about dividing people up based on one trait. Because if you look for differences in human beings you will find as many as you want. Divide on religion, divide on sects, divide on casts, divide on languages. Where does it stop? When a minority wants separate country then they become the majority and then the new minority will complain. Do we keep on dividing? It is better to look at uniting people and simplification. In historical times nations were tiny. Now we have much bigger nations.Humanity's progress and the way technology is advancing, it makes sense for more and more people to start working together and uniting, setting aside our differences.
 
Funnily enough it worked out pretty well for the Indians who were against the Two Nation ideology. Not so much for Pakistanis though.

I think it's worked out quite well to be honest. I wouldn't want to live in a country where I couldn't buy a house in a nice part of town because I was the wrong religion.
 
I think it's worked out quite well to be honest. I wouldn't want to live in a country where I couldn't buy a house in a nice part of town because I was the wrong religion.

I think people might have the same problem in some partsPakistan as well. Well if housing in an area is your biggest concern then I think it is valid. Though I love how you use the analogy despite the fact that you live thousands of miles away from either country
 
Do remember, it has been 68 years since that date, So whatever happened, good or bad cannot be blamed on that one decision alone. The actions of 2-3 generations after that date also contributed a lot to the present. And your actions will again contribute to the future. You can take the best of decisions and still ruin it if after making the choice, you then go ahead and make some further bad choices. And you can make a really bad choice and then make things better by your actions and choices in the future. Nothing is set in stone.

Having said that, i am opposed about dividing people up based on one trait. Because if you look for differences in human beings you will find as many as you want. Divide on religion, divide on sects, divide on casts, divide on languages. Where does it stop? When a minority wants separate country then they become the majority and then the new minority will complain. Do we keep on dividing? It is better to look at uniting people and simplification. In historical times nations were tiny. Now we have much bigger nations.Humanity's progress and the way technology is advancing, it makes sense for more and more people to start working together and uniting, setting aside our differences.

A lot of wishes have been made to wash both states of dogmatic bull made from the ruling classes

We can only hope really, so many of these people are untouchable in terms of their statements and what goes on behind the scenes
 
TNT has been proven right. Hindus and Muslims are indeed separate people and not meant to live together. The only way they can live together is by tolerating the others existence, and tolerating is never a nice thing. Pakistan is sure about its identity as an Islamic nation, but India is still having an identity crisis trying to be secular what is essentially a non secular nation.

Partition was the best thing to happen, except for the communal holocaust which could have been prevented. The blood is on the hands of Nehru, Jinnah and Mountbatten.
 
TNT has been proven right. Hindus and Muslims are indeed separate people and not meant to live together. The only way they can live together is by tolerating the others existence, and tolerating is never a nice thing. Pakistan is sure about its identity as an Islamic nation, but India is still having an identity crisis trying to be secular what is essentially a non secular nation.

Partition was the best thing to happen, except for the communal holocaust which could have been prevented. The blood is on the hands of Nehru, Jinnah and Mountbatten.

I like this post.

But Hindus and Muslims had been living side by side for a long time before partition. Without too much drama.
 
The creation of Bangladesh was a blow to the TNT but i think India has generally been better off after Partition. Our population would have been 1.6 billion otherwise :O.
 
In hindsight, TNT could be the best thing that happened to India, because as we see in Pakistan that based on Sharia Law; a Non-Muslim Pakistani is banned from holding positions of power in Govt and a Muslim is banned from changing his/her religion. If India was undivided perhaps it would have these draconian laws and some more. :9:
 
IMO religious riots in india were/are after math of partition, I don't know why people still thinks that it benefited india.
 
Imo Pakistan was just a dummy nation set up by Britian to keep the sub-continent from being stabilized
 
I like this post.

But Hindus and Muslims had been living side by side for a long time before partition. Without too much drama.




More Muslims live in India than in either Pakistan or Bangladesh.
 
TNT has been proven right. Hindus and Muslims are indeed separate people and not meant to live together. The only way they can live together is by tolerating the others existence, and tolerating is never a nice thing. Pakistan is sure about its identity as an Islamic nation, but India is still having an identity crisis trying to be secular what is essentially a non secular nation.

Partition was the best thing to happen, except for the communal holocaust which could have been prevented. The blood is on the hands of Nehru, Jinnah and Mountbatten.

So people getting along despite their differences is somehow wrong to you? To me it shows the most amazing aspect of human beings. There is absolutely nothing wrong with trying to find a middle ground and try to co-exist with people, tolerating and being tolerated, adjusting and being adjusted

What identity are you talking about? In thousands of years of human history is religion our only identity? What about shared culture and history and languages?

I would rather be in a nation of ever changing and adapting identity than a static place where they think they have reached the pinnacle of their identity. The way the word is progressing, the best identity is one as a human being. Every progress is the world today is possible because different people from different religion, culture and country co-operate and tolerate each other.

The thing which you are trying to portray as the weakness of India is in fact it's biggest strength otherwise using your logic we would have been split into a thousand pieces as religion is not the only identity, we have multiple castes, multiple languages, culture which can fit into you logic for dividing a country further.
 
TNT has little ground value as proven again and again specially the case where Bengalis cant move on with West Pakistani ethnicites. Pakistan is Punjab, Pakhtunkwa, Sindh, baluchistan, Kashmir, it is nothing more than a geopolitical entity on ground, for natives it only about improving there standard of living on their land regardless of .
 
So people getting along despite their differences is somehow wrong to you? To me it shows the most amazing aspect of human beings. There is absolutely nothing wrong with trying to find a middle ground and try to co-exist with people, tolerating and being tolerated, adjusting and being adjusted

What identity are you talking about? In thousands of years of human history is religion our only identity? What about shared culture and history and languages?

I would rather be in a nation of ever changing and adapting identity than a static place where they think they have reached the pinnacle of their identity. The way the word is progressing, the best identity is one as a human being. Every progress is the world today is possible because different people from different religion, culture and country co-operate and tolerate each other.

The thing which you are trying to portray as the weakness of India is in fact it's biggest strength otherwise using your logic we would have been split into a thousand pieces as religion is not the only identity, we have multiple castes, multiple languages, culture which can fit into you logic for dividing a country further.

I think in this day and age, countries should be formed based on economic and geographical sustainability rather than on religious or ethnic lines.
Look at India and the U.S. two big diverse nations with their fair share of problems and despite these large problems have remained largely peaceful and democratic throughout their history.
Also I don't get the obsession about formation of small states, look how USSR split up into several different countries and look what the countries are doing now they are haven for human trafficking. Look at the Middle East, their population is entirely Muslim but there is still so much fighting going on between Sunni's and Shia's and large instability looms.
When you are a big country, you have big problems but you also have big influence. US and India are not as rich as the Advanced European countries but exert as much if not more influence than them on the world stage.
When India achieves something on the global stage it makes all the 1.3 billion people happy and proud of different caste,creed and religions, isn't it better than making only a few millions happy who are basically of the same religion or ethnicity?
When nations are formed on economic and geographical sustainability they will most likely prosper and thrive because no matter how advanced man gets he cannot fill his stomach through religion or caste he will need food and transport to survive and thrive.
I therefore disagree with the 2NT as the basic premise of the theory was wrong.
 
Thats a bit harsh Lol.

Its true, look what they did in the Middle East. The West needs to make sure that they are the only stabilized region in the world, they can never let Asia dominate. Lets be honest if Pakistan never spilt from India, then the Sub-continent would have been one of the more prosperous and powerful reigions in the world but the US and its allies can't have that
 
Its true, look what they did in the Middle East. The West needs to make sure that they are the only stabilized region in the world, they can never let Asia dominate. Lets be honest if Pakistan never spilt from India, then the Sub-continent would have been one of the more prosperous and powerful reigions in the world but the US and its allies can't have that

No evidence to show that it would have been prosperous at all. In fact, the SC would've been even poorer and less united with a lot of internal problems
 
Its true, look what they did in the Middle East. The West needs to make sure that they are the only stabilized region in the world, they can never let Asia dominate. Lets be honest if Pakistan never spilt from India, then the Sub-continent would have been one of the more prosperous and powerful reigions in the world but the US and its allies can't have that




I agree with you here.
 
Its true, look what they did in the Middle East. The West needs to make sure that they are the only stabilized region in the world, they can never let Asia dominate. Lets be honest if Pakistan never spilt from India, then the Sub-continent would have been one of the more prosperous and powerful reigions in the world but the US and its allies can't have that

LOL do you even know what prosperity is at which per capita income prosperity starts what are population/resource ratio requisites to achieve it quicker, the gap b/w developed world and others now is considerable let alone at that time when they coudnt care less about these things.
 
Lol you're wrong bro, Muhajirs = Those who have migrated from India to Pakistan (they are not 1 ethnic group or didn't arrive from 1 part only) Its not a ethnic grouping term..

Please tell me what about the 20 Crore Muslims who are living in India with all religious communities?? Whats the justification for Pakistan then when it was formed for Muslims of Subcontinent??

I am a so-called Mohajr

Its a created ethnic grouping term for practical purposes

The Muslim who stayed back in India or could not move to Pakistan. It was their prerogative. It doesnt impract Pakistan in anyway
 
I like this post.

But Hindus and Muslims had been living side by side for a long time before partition. Without too much drama.

Thats one of the biggest myths ever

They were always at each others throats throughout subcontinental history since Muslims first came.

Its just a propagated myth that the British turned us on each other. They did a good job of stengthening the hate thats for sure. But there was no lack of drama
 
The creation of Bangladesh was a blow to the TNT but i think India has generally been better off after Partition. Our population would have been 1.6 billion otherwise :O.

No it hasnt.

It would have been a blow if East Pakistan/ Bangladesh was reabsorbed into India
 
Please tell me what about the 20 Crore Muslims who are living in India with all religious communities?? Whats the justification for Pakistan then when it was formed for Muslims of Subcontinent??


lol what is ethnic and geographic relation of majority of Pakistanis to these indian Muslims, do you think a villager from KPk or Punjab feel some sort of kinship with them beyond some religious hogwash. Ponder on that you will get answer to your ? btw you seemed to me reincarnation of one old member.
 
So people getting along despite their differences is somehow wrong to you? To me it shows the most amazing aspect of human beings. There is absolutely nothing wrong with trying to find a middle ground and try to co-exist with people, tolerating and being tolerated, adjusting and being adjusted

What identity are you talking about? In thousands of years of human history is religion our only identity? What about shared culture and history and languages?

I would rather be in a nation of ever changing and adapting identity than a static place where they think they have reached the pinnacle of their identity. The way the word is progressing, the best identity is one as a human being. Every progress is the world today is possible because different people from different religion, culture and country co-operate and tolerate each other.

The thing which you are trying to portray as the weakness of India is in fact it's biggest strength otherwise using your logic we would have been split into a thousand pieces as religion is not the only identity, we have multiple castes, multiple languages, culture which can fit into you logic for dividing a country further.
Very uplifting post.

The tragedy of the horrors of Partition and the communal violence that occurred is that its led to 68 years of mistrust and mutual resentment. If Partition had been handled better, and had Mountbatten stuck to the original June 1948 deadline for British withdrawal, the movement of populations and the settlement of borders could have been arranged in an orderly transition, thus avoiding the decades of enmity between Pakistan and India that was to follow.

The TNT as [MENTION=14431]blinding light[/MENTION] rightly mentions was infact originally a One Nation Theory. Muslims and other minorities would have their rights in a decentralised Indian state. Congress though insisted on a strong centre and it led to the collapse of the 1946 Cabinet Mission Plan that Jinnah actually agreed to.
 
Muslims in Pakistan does not have to worry that Hindu Baniya will not rent them their house and this is normal problem for Hindustani Muslims and this is the case in Bombay too.
 
So people getting along despite their differences is somehow wrong to you? To me it shows the most amazing aspect of human beings. There is absolutely nothing wrong with trying to find a middle ground and try to co-exist with people, tolerating and being tolerated, adjusting and being adjusted

What identity are you talking about? In thousands of years of human history is religion our only identity? What about shared culture and history and languages?

I would rather be in a nation of ever changing and adapting identity than a static place where they think they have reached the pinnacle of their identity. The way the word is progressing, the best identity is one as a human being. Every progress is the world today is possible because different people from different religion, culture and country co-operate and tolerate each other.

The thing which you are trying to portray as the weakness of India is in fact it's biggest strength otherwise using your logic we would have been split into a thousand pieces as religion is not the only identity, we have multiple castes, multiple languages, culture which can fit into you logic for dividing a country further.

I am not talking about what you want. You are free to be go to any nation you like. But India should have been a Hindu nation. There are Catholic and Islamic nations, but no Hindu nation in the world. India should stop being apologetic about its dharmic past, and do everything to protect and promote the Hindu religion. The Indian muslims should be given another piece of land and there should be a permanent settlement. So that India can get rid of its hindu muslim problem and both Muslims and Hindus can live in separate countries. Muslims would be happy that they will become a majority instead of minority and no longer oppressed by hindus, and hindus can be happy that they can have a complete beef ban, end to love jihad and vote bank politics. Win win for both.
 
Muslims in Pakistan does not have to worry that Hindu Baniya will not rent them their house and this is normal problem for Hindustani Muslims and this is the case in Bombay too.

Exactly. At least a Muslim Pakistan is ruled by a fellow Muslim, not some Hindu Ram Singh.
 
I like this argument.

Struggle for 60 years because you follow corruption, nepotism, bribery and all other evils of the society.

Blame it on the Two Nation theory.

See India being better than Pakistan at the moment economically.

Vindicate your stand.

Walk away leaving people confused even more than before.

Perfectly done OP.

:14:
 
I will say this, however - it's all about economics.

All questions, doubts on the validity of the TNT will disappear if Pakistan suddenly becomes an economic powerhouse. Show the money and get all the political validations in the world to justify your existence. No one will give a damn, or ask about the first nations of America, the native Americans, the aborginals elsewhere.

A big fat if, of course. But that is the way this cruel world operates. Hence all arguments, moral justifications and counterfactuals are ultimately futile.
 
Was a controversial decision at the time but absolutely justified today.
.

Pakistanis should be respected for sticking to the basic princilpes for an Islamic republic.

Eventhough i respect pakistanis sticking to their ideals, India I believe should strive towards secularism fighting the regressive subcontinental culture & in future accomplishing a freedom state for all races & religions.

While Pakistan has already achieved its objective of a state based on religion, a centuries long struggle lies ahead for India & Bangladesh to achieve a truly become a secular state.
 
Was a controversial decision at the time but absolutely justified today.
.

Pakistanis should be respected for sticking to the basic princilpes for an Islamic republic.

Eventhough i respect pakistanis sticking to their ideals, India I believe should strive towards secularism fighting the regressive subcontinental culture & in future accomplishing a freedom state for all races & religions.

While Pakistan has already achieved its objective of a state based on religion, a centuries long struggle lies ahead for India & Bangladesh to achieve a truly become a secular state.

An objective which must be changed to secular state if Pakistan is ever to progress.
 
An objective which must be changed to secular state if Pakistan is ever to progress.

Secularism doesnt guarantee progress.
Lot of Islamic nations are much more progressive then India both in culture & economy
 
Secularism doesnt guarantee progress.
Lot of Islamic nations are much more progressive then India both in culture & economy

True, but they don't have religious wars being fought on their turfs in the name of liberation of Islam.
 
The creation of Bangladesh was a blow to the TNT but i think India has generally been better off after Partition. Our population would have been 1.6 billion otherwise :O.

it might have a blow if BD decides to merged with india, its just another muslim country no matter if peoples say that they are peoples republic or communist republic the lifestyle of the peoples tells the story
 
I like this argument.

Struggle for 60 years because you follow corruption, nepotism, bribery and all other evils of the society.

Blame it on the Two Nation theory.

See India being better than Pakistan at the moment economically.

Vindicate your stand.

Walk away leaving people confused even more than before.

Perfectly done OP.

:14:

agreed Dr., I sometimes blame my parents for my own failure
 
Muslims in Pakistan does not have to worry that Hindu Baniya will not rent them their house and this is normal problem for Hindustani Muslims and this is the case in Bombay too.

If the biggest worry for Muslims in India is not getting a place in overcrowded Mumbai, I would say they are much better off than most countries in the world including Pakistan. #firstworldproblems
 
If the biggest worry for Muslims in India is not getting a place in overcrowded Mumbai, I would say they are much better off than most countries in the world including Pakistan. #firstworldproblems

Muslims may be better off or worse off in india, that is least of my concerns. My concern is for hindus who have no country to call their own. Cant even practice their religion without sickulars creating an uproar over it. And made to feel guilty for everything wrong in the country. India needs another full and final partition.
 
I think people might have the same problem in some partsPakistan as well. Well if housing in an area is your biggest concern then I think it is valid. Though I love how you use the analogy despite the fact that you live thousands of miles away from either country

I own property in Pakistan though. Plus the majority of my relatives still live there and can live wherever they choose. Perhaps there problems for minorities in Pakistan as they are well documented here, but as I'm not one of them I can only give my own point of view. One of the reasons I would never move to the middle east is because there are restrictions in some of those countries which prevent immigrants from owning property. Now that seems harsh, but compare it to regions in India where their own citizens born and bred can't buy a house in a nice part of the city.
 
I will say this, however - it's all about economics.

All questions, doubts on the validity of the TNT will disappear if Pakistan suddenly becomes an economic powerhouse. Show the money and get all the political validations in the world to justify your existence. No one will give a damn, or ask about the first nations of America, the native Americans, the aborginals elsewhere.

A big fat if, of course. But that is the way this cruel world operates. Hence all arguments, moral justifications and counterfactuals are ultimately futile.

how can you be economically viable if your country is being prostituted for the "greater good" of the ummah :facepalm:
 
It's really futile to talk about these things now. What's done is done, rest is all hindsight. You really don't gain anything from discussing it.
 
It's really futile to talk about these things now. What's done is done, rest is all hindsight. You really don't gain anything from discussing it.

but instead of repeating the BS that's been carried out in the last 60 years we can try to change it...
 
So was it really a Two Nation Theory or just a bargaining chip that eventually lead to partition because of political brinkmanship by various players.

I would frame it somewhat differently. The question needs to be asked first, why many Muslims adopted their religious identity as their principal political identity? This conflation of the religious and political identities did not make Pakistan inevitable, but it was a pre-requisite to its creation, an enabling factor. Then secondly, why did the movement for Pakistan succeed and why it did emerge in the form it did in 1947?

In explaining the first question some weight needs to be given to the colonial impact and interaction - the communications revolution which knitted India together (better roads, the building of railways, the introduction of a national postal service, the growth of the telegraph system and the massive expansion of printed publications); the British perception of India as a religiously segmented society which led to them privileging religious identity; British institutions - the introduction of the census which for the first time led to a bureaucratically defined religious community bound by the state and which effaced diversity within religious communities and separate electorates which institutionalized a political Muslim identity; and finally the political structure and how this shaped certain responses from Indian elites. Local interests became soldered to provincial interests in the aftermath of the Montagu-Chelmsford reforms of 1919, which devolved power to the provinces. This increased provincial competition at the expense of co-operation. In addition the increase in the electorate forced politicians to become more responsive to the view ‘on the ground’ and more willing to manipulate divisions for political advantage. The emphasis on numbers led to a shift in focus from Muslim minority to Muslim majority provinces, strengthening provincial outlooks, which became intermeshed with communalism. Provincialism would later manifest itself as a core part of Muslim League program for weak centre in contrast to Congress’s insistence on inheriting the strong unitary centre. Devolution on a provincial basis also influenced the Congress. Centrifugal tendencies inherent in Dyarchy, as the reforms of 1919 came to be known were matched by a centripetal stance by Congress. Congress authoritarianism, which alienated many Muslims, therefore was partly a result of the structure of politics which the British constructed.

Some weight needs to be given to the impact on Hindu revivalism. Indian nationalism became suffused with Hindu symbolism. Components of cultural nationalism included, the Vedic myth, memories of Shivaji, the icon of Bharat Mata and the Kali cult, the symbol of the Cow and the river Ganges. In the nineteenth century one needs to pay attention to the movement to replace the Persian script with the Nagri script and the Cow Protection movements as well as the influence of the Arya Samaj, especially in the Punjab. In the twentieth century William Gould demonstrated how Hindu nationalism manifested itself in the level of local politics amongst the ostensibly ‘secular’ Congress party. Gould shows, firstly, how Hindu holy men intermeshed the language of nationalism with that of religion. He shows, secondly, that festivals and temples, laced with religious meaning, were often the arenas where nationalism was espoused. Thirdly, he points to the pervasive use of religious symbols, and indeed religious figures, in mobilizing the masses. Finally, he looks at how Hindu ideas of sin and pollution were used in ways, which marginalized Muslims.

Away from politics, Sudhir Chandra examined late nineteenth-century Hindi literature, to demonstrate how ‘communal consciousness’ was often fused with ‘national consciousness’ which excluded minorities whilst Charu Gupta in an original work “locates the growth of Hindu communalism in everyday sites and relationships through the prism of gender.”

Thirdly, attention needs to be paid to ideas in the Indo-Muslim tradition and how Islamic civilizational ideas, especially that of the umma interacted with modern nationalist ideals. As the distinguished historian of Muslim history in South Asia, Francis Robinson, says, for many Muslims, “being part of the Muslim community is a central part of being a Muslim.” Marshall Hodgson writes, “there has been a continuous pressure towards persuading Muslims to adopt like standards, like ways of living based on Islamic ideals prevailing at a given time...everywhere Muslims are noted for their keen consciousness of the Muslim community...and maintain in the most diverse geography not only the essential distinctiveness of Islamic rites...but also to some degree, a sense of common cultural heritage.”

Fourthly, there is the long history of Muslim revivalism. Although it pre-dates the colonial encounter, the entrenchment of British power particularly challenged Muslims. ‘As Western power grew’ wrote Francis Robinson, ‘the fundamental nature of its challenges became clearer. There was the challenge of defeat. How was it that the Muslim community, which the Quran described as the ‘greatest nation raised up for mankind’ and which had been throughout its history an expanding and dominant force, had come to be subjected to the power of the West?’ One response to British pre-eminence was that of the ulama of the Deoband. In the absence of state power, this movement emphasised individual conscience and knowledge of God’s word as the ultimate guarantor of Islamic society. Another response was that of the Ahl-I Hadith. Of similar background to the Deobandis, but more elitist and more extreme, they rejected even the decisions of the medieval law schools and were dedicated to purifying practices not in accordance with their interpretation of ‘proper’ Islam. Then there was the movement of the Barelvis, who called themselves the Ahl-i Sunnat wa Jamaat' and defended popular sufi practices under fire. Finally, there was Islamic modernism, which in late nineteenth century was symbolised by the Sayyid Ahmad Khan and the Aligarh movement that sought to recover the spirit of Islam within the context of contemporary needs. These movements drew sharper distinctions between Muslim and non-Muslim.

But even with the emergence of religion as the predominant political identity among many Muslims, it was not inevitable that a separate Pakistan state would emerge in the form it did. It was contingent on a number of factors especially between 1937-1946 and this explains the second question. World War II did much to boost the Muslim League’s standing as Britain turned to it because of the number of Muslims in the army and the opposition of the nationalist movement. The role of Congress has also come into sharp focus. Congress obduracy, refusal to countenance a confederal India, mistakes such as not sharing power with the Muslim League following its triumph in the 1937 elections are popular explanations for the eventual partition. Ayesha Jalal has powerfully argued that for the Congress partition was a price worth paying to inherit a strong state. The Congress understood that by accepting partition they were disencumbering themselves of the Muslim League and as such in the words of Joya Chatterji, India could inherit a strong centre “without weightages, reservations and other such devices.” Joya Chatterji has also pointed out that calls for partition came not just from Muslims but in Bengal the Hindu elite keen to restore their dominant position were vociferous in their demands that Bengal be divided. Jinnah’s leadership has also been highlighted, either for his ability to embody and articulate Muslims hopes and aspirations, or for his role as political strategist and negotiator with a fine eye for constitutional detail. Popular pressures should also not be ignored. Sumit Sarkar has argued that the Congress fearing social revolution in the 1940s wanted a settlement quickly and were prepared to accept partition as the price of suppressing popular forces that threatened a social revolution. From a different angle, Ian Talbot has pointed to the role of popular mobilisation in the 1940s in securing Pakistan. Jinnah’s call for a homeland would have translated into nothing had Muslims – ordinary Muslims – not been sincerely moved by it and had not participated in vast numbers in the movement. For Talbot Pakistan was not simply created by a few middle-aged men in ‘smoke filled rooms’.

So there are many factors that contributed to the creation of Pakistan.
 
i would frame it somewhat differently. The question needs to be asked first, why many muslims adopted their religious identity as their principal political identity? This conflation of the religious and political identities did not make pakistan inevitable, but it was a pre-requisite to its creation, an enabling factor. Then secondly, why did the movement for pakistan succeed and why it did emerge in the form it did in 1947?

In explaining the first question some weight needs to be given to the colonial impact and interaction - the communications revolution which knitted india together (better roads, the building of railways, the introduction of a national postal service, the growth of the telegraph system and the massive expansion of printed publications); the british perception of india as a religiously segmented society which led to them privileging religious identity; british institutions - the introduction of the census which for the first time led to a bureaucratically defined religious community bound by the state and which effaced diversity within religious communities and separate electorates which institutionalized a political muslim identity; and finally the political structure and how this shaped certain responses from indian elites. Local interests became soldered to provincial interests in the aftermath of the montagu-chelmsford reforms of 1919, which devolved power to the provinces. This increased provincial competition at the expense of co-operation. In addition the increase in the electorate forced politicians to become more responsive to the view ‘on the ground’ and more willing to manipulate divisions for political advantage. The emphasis on numbers led to a shift in focus from muslim minority to muslim majority provinces, strengthening provincial outlooks, which became intermeshed with communalism. Provincialism would later manifest itself as a core part of muslim league program for weak centre in contrast to congress’s insistence on inheriting the strong unitary centre. Devolution on a provincial basis also influenced the congress. Centrifugal tendencies inherent in dyarchy, as the reforms of 1919 came to be known were matched by a centripetal stance by congress. Congress authoritarianism, which alienated many muslims, therefore was partly a result of the structure of politics which the british constructed.

Some weight needs to be given to the impact on hindu revivalism. Indian nationalism became suffused with hindu symbolism. Components of cultural nationalism included, the vedic myth, memories of shivaji, the icon of bharat mata and the kali cult, the symbol of the cow and the river ganges. In the nineteenth century one needs to pay attention to the movement to replace the persian script with the nagri script and the cow protection movements as well as the influence of the arya samaj, especially in the punjab. In the twentieth century william gould demonstrated how hindu nationalism manifested itself in the level of local politics amongst the ostensibly ‘secular’ congress party. Gould shows, firstly, how hindu holy men intermeshed the language of nationalism with that of religion. He shows, secondly, that festivals and temples, laced with religious meaning, were often the arenas where nationalism was espoused. Thirdly, he points to the pervasive use of religious symbols, and indeed religious figures, in mobilizing the masses. Finally, he looks at how hindu ideas of sin and pollution were used in ways, which marginalized muslims.

Away from politics, sudhir chandra examined late nineteenth-century hindi literature, to demonstrate how ‘communal consciousness’ was often fused with ‘national consciousness’ which excluded minorities whilst charu gupta in an original work “locates the growth of hindu communalism in everyday sites and relationships through the prism of gender.”

thirdly, attention needs to be paid to ideas in the indo-muslim tradition and how islamic civilizational ideas, especially that of the umma interacted with modern nationalist ideals. As the distinguished historian of muslim history in south asia, francis robinson, says, for many muslims, “being part of the muslim community is a central part of being a muslim.” marshall hodgson writes, “there has been a continuous pressure towards persuading muslims to adopt like standards, like ways of living based on islamic ideals prevailing at a given time...everywhere muslims are noted for their keen consciousness of the muslim community...and maintain in the most diverse geography not only the essential distinctiveness of islamic rites...but also to some degree, a sense of common cultural heritage.”

fourthly, there is the long history of muslim revivalism. Although it pre-dates the colonial encounter, the entrenchment of british power particularly challenged muslims. ‘as western power grew’ wrote francis robinson, ‘the fundamental nature of its challenges became clearer. There was the challenge of defeat. How was it that the muslim community, which the quran described as the ‘greatest nation raised up for mankind’ and which had been throughout its history an expanding and dominant force, had come to be subjected to the power of the west?’ one response to british pre-eminence was that of the ulama of the deoband. In the absence of state power, this movement emphasised individual conscience and knowledge of god’s word as the ultimate guarantor of islamic society. Another response was that of the ahl-i hadith. Of similar background to the deobandis, but more elitist and more extreme, they rejected even the decisions of the medieval law schools and were dedicated to purifying practices not in accordance with their interpretation of ‘proper’ islam. Then there was the movement of the barelvis, who called themselves the ahl-i sunnat wa jamaat' and defended popular sufi practices under fire. Finally, there was islamic modernism, which in late nineteenth century was symbolised by the sayyid ahmad khan and the aligarh movement that sought to recover the spirit of islam within the context of contemporary needs. These movements drew sharper distinctions between muslim and non-muslim.

But even with the emergence of religion as the predominant political identity among many muslims, it was not inevitable that a separate pakistan state would emerge in the form it did. It was contingent on a number of factors especially between 1937-1946 and this explains the second question. World war ii did much to boost the muslim league’s standing as britain turned to it because of the number of muslims in the army and the opposition of the nationalist movement. The role of congress has also come into sharp focus. Congress obduracy, refusal to countenance a confederal india, mistakes such as not sharing power with the muslim league following its triumph in the 1937 elections are popular explanations for the eventual partition. Ayesha jalal has powerfully argued that for the congress partition was a price worth paying to inherit a strong state. The congress understood that by accepting partition they were disencumbering themselves of the muslim league and as such in the words of joya chatterji, india could inherit a strong centre “without weightages, reservations and other such devices.” joya chatterji has also pointed out that calls for partition came not just from muslims but in bengal the hindu elite keen to restore their dominant position were vociferous in their demands that bengal be divided. Jinnah’s leadership has also been highlighted, either for his ability to embody and articulate muslims hopes and aspirations, or for his role as political strategist and negotiator with a fine eye for constitutional detail. Popular pressures should also not be ignored. Sumit sarkar has argued that the congress fearing social revolution in the 1940s wanted a settlement quickly and were prepared to accept partition as the price of suppressing popular forces that threatened a social revolution. From a different angle, ian talbot has pointed to the role of popular mobilisation in the 1940s in securing pakistan. Jinnah’s call for a homeland would have translated into nothing had muslims – ordinary muslims – not been sincerely moved by it and had not participated in vast numbers in the movement. For talbot pakistan was not simply created by a few middle-aged men in ‘smoke filled rooms’.

So there are many factors that contributed to the creation of pakistan.

potw :14:
 
Good post by [MENTION=71]KB[/MENTION].

As he mentioned, the nationalist movement of Hindus used Vedas/Gita etc which scared Muslims about what would happen when the British leave. Many in India view it was Jinnah alone who was responsible for dividing India, and don't know the role of some in INC.

Anyway what is done is done. But what surprises me is how many Muslims chose not to leave India.
 
Anyway what is done is done. But what surprises me is how many Muslims chose not to leave India.

It wasnt that easy

You either had to be in the border states to Pakistan OR be wealthy enough to migrate a long distance

Also it was mostly from the urdu speaking Muslims

So Deccan, UP, Bihar, Punjab, Delhi, Gujrat

doubt any tamil or kerala muslims would see any point in migrating
 
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doubt any tamil or kerala muslims would see any point in migrating

Hundreds of Muslims from Kerala migrated to Pakistan but later returned as they could not adapt to the changes.
Of course when they returned, the Indian government viewed them as citizens of Pakistan and tried to deport them.

There was/were a few hundred Pakistan passport holders in Kerala. Don't know the status now.
 
Hundreds of Muslims from Kerala migrated to Pakistan but later returned as they could not adapt to the changes.
Of course when they returned, the Indian government viewed them as citizens of Pakistan and tried to deport them.

There was/were a few hundred Pakistan passport holders in Kerala. Don't know the status now.
they didnt migrate due to partition

they came here in 1920-21 for economic opportunities

dont fall under same group

Also..... I just remembered one of my school friends migrated from Madras which is now calcutta

but dont think he is ethnically tamil as he is pretty fair and doesnt have those features
 
Something else, I'd like to add onto what [MENTION=71]KB[/MENTION] said. At that point in time (first half of the 20th century), internationally, nationalism and national self-determination movements were at their apex. All across the globe, nationalism and self-determination even ordained by religion was treated as a goal to be achieved and later, classified and celebrated s a fundamental human right in 1960 by the United Nations (objected to by obviously, the USA, Great Britain, France, etc).

Having a country carved out based on religion was by no means a huge matter, or for that matter, as 'evil' as some rhetoricians make it out to be. The Treaty of Lausanne, 1919 (I think), ordained huge population transfers and mass migrations in between Turkey and Greece on the basis of religions were not merely carried out, but was decided multi-laterally by the supposed critical mass, the 'Great Powers of Europe' and authorised by the US.

Working it out in case of the Indian subcontinent remains the Quaid's achievement - but this is where it is important to focus and think on what was the going-currency for national self-determination in that era - to remove ourselves from the current state of affairs and then think, ponder on what should have been done. This is where the TNT makes sense.
 
they didnt migrate due to partition

they came here in 1920-21 for economic opportunities

dont fall under same group

Also..... I just remembered one of my school friends migrated from Madras which is now calcutta

but dont think he is ethnically tamil as he is pretty fair and doesnt have those features
Tamils can be fair as well.Its a misconception that Tamils are dark.
 
One thing I've noticed is that most Indians refer to Tamils as Tamilians, including Tamils themselves. I've never understood why.
 
But it just seems like they're adding -ian to Tamil, when Tamil alone would've sufficed.

Interesting observation, maybe it's a speciality of south indians, people who speak Kannada are called kannadigas, Malayalam speakers are called malayalis.
 
they didnt migrate due to partition

they came here in 1920-21 for economic opportunities

dont fall under same group

Also..... I just remembered one of my school friends migrated from Madras which is now calcutta

but dont think he is ethnically tamil as he is pretty fair and doesnt have those features

Its Chennai now.Calcutta became Kolkata and its in West Bengal.I know it was unintentional mistake just saying.
 
Well I still don't understand the need of it but i think the debate is over now as we are different countries.
But a bunch of politicians divided the country most hailing from Gujarat jus saying.I would had preferred countries based on language but India finally now is in position where of its citizens identify with themselves being Indian and yes Pakistan needs to find itself but seeing how its going i see most of them finding their roots in Arab and Turkey so best of luck on that.
 
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