What If Series: What will be state of non muslims in Mughal Renaissance era of India

[DeadlyVenom]

Yeah the Hindus resurrecting one of their holiest shrines is their fault ... not surprising.

Here is the correct sequence of events:

1. Muslims destroy one of the holiest Hindu Temples
2. Build a Mosque on top of it using Pillars from the very same temple and using the same foundation
3. 400+ years later Hindus politely ask to get back the temples.
4. Muslims blatantly refuse. Multiple attempts are made to resolve the dispute amicably but the Muslims never budge.
5. The case goes to the courts and it drags on for decades
6. Seeing that there is no point in taking the civilized approach the Hindus bring down the Mosque in 1992
7. Muslims respond by rioting across the country.
8. Get owned
9. And now you are blaming Hindus for something that they never started ( Unless ofcourse you blame Hindus for not stopping Babar from demolishing the temple in the first )

Did you say sickness ?

It exposes your mentality when you say people being burned alive is getting "owned".

Day by day the so called peaceful facade you guys present gets stripped away.

 

[uppercut]

It exposes your mentality when you say people being burned alive is getting "owned".

Day by day the so called peaceful facade you guys present gets stripped away.

And your mentality where you are batting for bonafide thugs who have no compunctions on resorting to violence/intolerance at the drop of a hat is what .... ? How is that supposedly very peaceful innocent facade where you were advocating that nobody should resort to violence working out ?

 

[DeadlyVenom]

And your mentality where you are batting for bonafide thugs who have no compunctions on resorting to violence/intolerance at the drop of a hat is what .... ? How is that supposedly very peaceful innocent facade where you were advocating that nobody should resort to violence working out ?

I'm not sure which thugs you have found me batting for.

So far you and your friends have called Muslims trash. Said Muslims who are killed deserve it. Is happy for people to murder and rape as long as they can justify it as being owned. Refer to people dying as being owned. Consider 80 deaths to be Greater than 100000 and swat away Hindus being killed by other Hindu Kings, and temples being destroyed by Hindus as nothing, because it doesn't suit your agenda.

I haven't made any such statements. Go and find one.

On the other hand, I have shown myself to be a defender of Hindu rights to be offended by cow slaughter, a defender of religious sensibilities, a protector of temples against the murder of innocents, and a diligent student of subcontinent history.

 

[Stewie]

International organizations have raised concerns, however a non Pakistani organisation wouldn't be allowed to come into Pakistan by Pakistani authorities to do any research regarding minority mistreatment, no way in hell I see this happening. This is a country that is practically failed in almost every category, known for religious extremism, intolerance, terrorism, nuclear profileration, bankrupt, have not had Prime Minister complete a full term since its creation.

Pakistani muslims themselves have to solve this crisis, they are accountable for this dire situation. If the Quran teaches you to treat everyone equally well then it sure is time to put it into practice before minorities of Pakistan disappear for good in the future.

Actually that’s not true. There are plenty of researches on this and you are welcome to google and you will find them. Pakistan still officially claims to be democratic even though it’s a facade, but they do attempt to abide by such norms and entertain international cooperation whether you like it to admit it or not.

And based on what I am reading so far the minority numbers are being under represented by the government for a reason. I’ll share the details later. I also did not see in any of the international or “neutral” reports that Pakistan has been guilty of mass genocide or mass forced conversions like Indians like to claim or have been told by their government.

Of course the reports don’t paint a rosy picture of the overall minority situation. Unfortunately there are instances of forced conversions and other abuses, but nothing at the scale that would reduce the population percentage from 20 odd % to low single digits. Those numbers are actually a result of various other incidents.

Funny thing is I read reports that a lot of Hindus actually took the Indian offer and moved to India but ended up moving back to Pakistan after a while.

 

[uppercut]

On the other hand, I have shown myself to be a defender of Hindu rights to be offended by cow slaughter, a defender of religious sensibilities, a protector of temples against the murder of innocents, and a diligent student of subcontinent history.

Is that why you are doggedly refusing to answer the pointed question I asked you earlier in the thread in post# 126 ?

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Is that why you are doggedly refusing to answer the pointed question I asked you earlier in the thread in post# 126 ?

I've answered it.

 

[uppercut]

I've answered it.

Not explicitly. I need the name of the party that you hold responsible for the loss of lives post the Barbi demoltion. No vaguery.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Not explicitly. I need the name of the party that you hold responsible. No vaguery.

I hold the Hindus whipped up by Shiv Sena etc responsible for the killing of Muslims and vice versa with the Muslim rioters.

This is a very simple to understand but you keep rabbiting on about it post by post. I'm not sure what difficulties you are experiencing here.

 

[uppercut]

I hold the Hindus whipped up by Shiv Sena etc responsible for the killing of Muslims and vice versa with the Muslim rioters.

This is a very simple to understand but you keep rabbiting on about it post by post. I'm not sure what difficulties you are experiencing here.

The difficulty is how did you arrive at Hindus being guilty for what happened post the demolition of the Babri Mosque. See the sequence of events that lead up to that I posted in post# 160. Unless ofcourse your expectation is that Hindus put up with Muslim extremism ?

 

[DeadlyVenom]

The difficulty is how did you arrive at Hindus being guilty for what happened post the demolition of the Babri Mosque. See the sequence of events that lead up to that I posted in post# 160. Unless ofcourse your expectation is that Hindus put up with Muslim extremism ?

My expectation is that people don't resort to mob violence and kill hundreds of people, many of whom had nothing to do with the original incident in question.

Again. It's very simple.

You on the other hand seem to be scrambling around for excuses for murder. Or for people getting "owned" by being burnt alive. Is this what your religion teaches you is acceptable behaviour?

 

[uppercut]

My expectation is that people don't resort to mob violence and kill hundreds of people, many of whom had nothing to do with the original incident in question.

But that would entirely be Muslims who started the rioting as they took offense to the demolition of the mosque. So your expectation is that Hindus should have just tolerated that Massacre ?

Again. It's very simple.

You on the other hand seem to be scrambling around for excuses for murder. Or for people getting "owned" by being burnt alive. Is this what your religion teaches you is acceptable behaviour?

Hold on ... not so fast. Does your religion teach you to demolish other places of worship ? It most certainly appears to be so s going by the countless temples that were destroyed by barbarians that YOU and soo many posters here take pride in. When this sort of idiotry happens in the modern times it will eventually lead to conflicts. So shouldn't your ire be directed at those scumbags who even today doggedly fight for retaining such Mosques that were built on very sacred Hindu temples ?

 

[DeadlyVenom]

But that would entirely be Muslims who started the rioting as they took offense to the demolition of the mosque. So your expectation is that Hindus should have just tolerated that Massacre ?

You believe that in response to Muslims allegedly starting rioting that Hindus had every right to kill people that may not have participated in the riots?

It's important you clarify your position here.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Actually that’s not true. There are plenty of researches on this and you are welcome to google and you will find them. Pakistan still officially claims to be democratic even though it’s a facade, but they do attempt to abide by such norms and entertain international cooperation whether you like it to admit it or not.

I would be skeptical on any research coming out of Pakistan, the country is a circus, nothing can be taken seriously.

And based on what I am reading so far the minority numbers are being under represented by the government for a reason. I’ll share the details later. I also did not see in any of the international or “neutral” reports that Pakistan has been guilty of mass genocide or mass forced conversions like Indians like to claim or have been told by their government.

Of course the reports don’t paint a rosy picture of the overall minority situation. Unfortunately there are instances of forced conversions and other abuses, but nothing at the scale that would reduce the population percentage from 20 odd % to low single digits. Those numbers are actually a result of various other incidents.

Funny thing is I read reports that a lot of Hindus actually took the Indian offer and moved to India but ended up moving back to Pakistan after a while.

This could be true in some cases, India is not a 1st world country, if the Pakistani Hindus came to India expecting it to be Europe and end up struggling to find work, go without food etc may have potentially moved back to Pakistan. However it could also be false...





bold..

 

[HalBass9]

I would be skeptical on any research coming out of Pakistan, the country is a circus, nothing can be taken seriously.

Same goes for India. Except Sri Lanka, all of the sub-continent is a circus.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Not only that, you are now defending the caste system by trying to weasel your way around it. Fact of the matter is the dominant religion of India does in fact have a system that discriminates amongst its followers.

Yeah I am weaseling my way out, those are big words coming from a poster that bought caste system into a thread that has nothing to do with it. Like @sweep_shot bro says the whataboutisms..

Since you brought up caste system, I merely pointed out that the Indian president is from the tribal caste, reminding you unlike Pakistan (where minorities are concerned) ppl of lower caste have found prosperity & recognition regardless of caste in India, which ppl of higher caste have not achieved, can you say the same for minorities in Pakistan?.

How in the world is the caste system issue in India dwindling the population of its minorities ? what in the world does that have anything to do with minorities numbers getting lower in Pakistan ?

However in the overall, yes you are correct, caste system is pathetic, horrible and is a major dent for Hinduism no 2 ways about it, now get back to the thread...

So while you’re yapping away about non Arabs (or as you say cOnVeRts) Vs Arabs, maybe look in your own country of how followers of Hinduism are classified and discriminated first.

Majority of Pakistanis and Bangladeshi muslims are converts, you are not part of the Arab culture, just stated facts, I don't know why you are getting upset over it. You can't be something you are not, you can always pretend though and live in your own little world, Pakistanis tend to do that a bit looking at the state of the country...

I conduct myself as a Muslim. I’ve said on this section of the forum before as well, nationality is far down the list for me in terms of identity, if even that. Pakistan is operating as a failed state currently and leaves a lot to be desired in terms of fulfilling human rights for non Muslims and Muslims alike. I will admit that, nothing to hold me back from saying that.

I appreciate what you are saying here, kudos and you are not in denial like a lot of Pakistanis living in Britain.

But that has to do with the failure of Pakistan and its failure to stand firm on the faith that it claims to be a republic of. Got nothing to do with Islam.

Pakistan was founded on the basis of Islam, it has been an total utter disaster and failure. I believe Islamic mindset contributed to the mess that is now Pakistan. Only thing separating Pakistan from a totally failed state like Ethiopia or Somalia is that the country has nuclear weapons, which means the powers from the 1st world nations cannot allow it to go rogue like the African countries mentioned above, so a lifeline will always be provided to stay barely afloat.

 

[Stewie]

I would be skeptical on any research coming out of Pakistan, the country is a circus, nothing can be taken seriously.



This could be true in some cases, India is not a 1st world country, if the Pakistani Hindus came to India expecting it to be Europe and end up struggling to find work, go without food etc may have potentially moved back to Pakistan. However it could also be false...





bold..

I think you misunderstood me. I googled and I found several such researched from independent/external sources. We have obviously established you have little faith in anything internally from Pakistan so we are not even going to waste time discussing those.

I would like to cite just one that I think may address an important point here:

Pakistan's Religious Minorities Say They Were Undercounted in Census

www.voanews.com

Religious minorities claim that prior governments also tended to undercount them because it allowed Islamabad to draw smaller constituencies and apportion fewer seats in the assemblies and the Senate.

Currently, religious minorities may contest only 33 reserved seats in the assemblies and four seats in the Senate.

Pakistan's NADRA records show 6,146 registered Sikhs, down from an estimated 2 million at the time of partition in 1947.

Rights activists say that many Sikhs, who primarily live in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa and Punjab, have left Pakistan to escape Islamist militant attacks and institutional discrimination.

So its rather an unfortunate picture. Pakistan is obviously not doing enough for the welfare of minorities. But given the rise of extremism as well as dire economic conditions in the country, it has actually become easier for minorities than say mainstream Muslims in Pakistan to leave Pakistan for greener economic pastures overseas, under the pre-text of religious discrimination and threat to life.

This trend can be blamed for rapidly decreasing number of minorities in Pakistan over the year. So far, I have seen zero reports from external and reputable international sources confirming mass genocide or mass conversions in Pakistan. That is not to say there are obviously reported incidents here and there but nothing to the extremes the Indians seem to think.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Same goes for India. Except Sri Lanka, all of the sub-continent is a circus.

I don't disagree, India is a 3rd world country afterall.

 

[Suleiman]

Yeah I am weaseling my way out, those are big words coming from a poster that bought caste system into a thread that has nothing to do with it. Like @sweep_shot bro says the whataboutisms..

Since you brought up caste system, I merely pointed out that the Indian president is from the tribal caste, reminding you unlike Pakistan (where minorities are concerned) ppl of lower caste have found prosperity & recognition regardless of caste in India, which ppl of higher caste have not achieved, can you say the same for minorities in Pakistan?.

How in the world is the caste system issue in India dwindling the population of its minorities ? what in the world does that have anything to do with minorities numbers getting lower in Pakistan ?

However in the overall, yes you are correct, caste system is pathetic, horrible and is a major dent for Hinduism no 2 ways about it, now get back to the thread...







Majority of Pakistanis and Bangladeshi muslims are converts, you are not part of the Arab culture, just stated facts, I don't know why you are getting upset over it. You can't be something you are not, you can always pretend though and live in your own little world, Pakistanis tend to do that a bit looking at the state of the country...



I appreciate what you are saying here, kudos and you are not in denial like a lot of Pakistanis living in Britain.


Pakistan was founded on the basis of Islam, it has been an total utter disaster and failure. I believe Islamic mindset contributed to the mess that is now Pakistan. Only thing separating Pakistan from a totally failed state like Ethiopia or Somalia is that the country has nuclear weapons, which means the powers from the 1st world nations cannot allow it to go rogue like the African countries mentioned above, so a lifeline will always be provided to stay barely afloat.

You missed the point again. I am saying that despite the status of lower caste, the fact of the matter is that the idea of caste still exists in the dominant religion of India, and they had to break away from that religious detail to make sure the lower caste get their rights.

Pakistan is awful at upholding rights, but Islam on the other hand has values and principles regarding upholding rights of citizens that Pakistan does not follow. That is on Pakistan. That despite saying it’s an Islamic republic it only uses Islam as a front to consolidate power but not when it comes to human rights.

Secondly, you want to talk about the last 5-30 years of failed countries who happen to be Muslim. Why do you discount the Muslim countries who are actually doing well or how about 1000+ years of history where Islamic empires and societies had major influence on the global scale esp when it comes to minority rights?

You can stay in your delusion that those achievements don’t belong to Bangladesh, Pakistan etc- I don’t really care tbh lol. Muslims are of one nation. That brotherhood extends beyond borders. That is what Islam teaches. Muslim first, then whatever nationality one is comes second. This is why I can criticize Pakistan without skipping a beat because I have no skin in the nationality game.

But you are still struggling to understand that Islam doesn’t care for Arabic culture or not… Islam is sent for all mankind. It’s not just for the Arabs. This is stated by God and His messenger PBUH. Whatever anyone says after that, is your own take on it as you try to cope and look down on an era where Islam ruled India and India prospered.

 

[uppercut]

You believe that in response to Muslims allegedly starting rioting that Hindus had every right to kill people that may not have participated in the riots?

It's important you clarify your position here.

Nothing alleged about it. Either they were responsible for starting the riots in YOUR opinion or NOT. Confirm that please to avoid meaningless back and forth.

But I will still answer your question ...

Obviously no but do You think that its practical and possible to identify to the last man that participated in rioting in a large and extremely populous country like India and let law and order handle them ? And its not like such retaliation hasnt happened in the past. That the past episodes did not serve as a deterrent is telling, this goes back to what I have been saying that violence is a very standard, normal and common means of dispute resolution for Muslims. Therefore You should be the last person to say things like this ( post# 33) : "What I am saying is there is never any provocation for mass slaughter and pogroms. You cannot ever legitimize violence against innocents or whole communities." Your community is the single biggest offender on that count.

 

[uppercut]

Kindly do me the same favor, as your excessive tolerance and intelligence are simply too much for my taste.

Maybe for starters you should stop quoting me then ... See your post# 36 right on the first page as an example. There is nothing to discuss with you as you have been summarily owned in past discussions.

Besides there is not a whole lot to argue with somehow who brackets Hamas and Hezbollah along with Gandhi and Mandela. Thats gotta be the most shocking post on this forum ever.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Nothing alleged about it. Either they were responsible for starting the riots in YOUR opinion or NOT. Confirm that please to avoid meaningless back and forth.

But I will still answer your question ...

Obviously no but do You think that its practical and possible to identify to the last man that participated in rioting in a large and extremely populous country like India and let law and order handle them ? And its not like such retaliation hasnt happened in the past. That the past episodes did not serve as a deterrent is telling, this goes back to what I have been saying that violence is a very standard, normal and common means of dispute resolution for Muslims. Therefore You should be the last person to say things like this ( post# 33) : "What I am saying is there is never any provocation for mass slaughter and pogroms. You cannot ever legitimize violence against innocents or whole communities." Your community is the single biggest offender on that count.

Before responding I am going to give you a chance to consider your posts. Read over them and let me know tomorrow if you still stand by them. If so I will continue the discussion.

If after reflecting you would instead prefer to alter your views please also let me know.

 

[uppercut]

Before responding I am going to give you a chance to consider your posts. Read over them and let me know tomorrow if you still stand by them. If so I will continue the discussion.

If after reflecting you would instead prefer to alter your views please also let me know.

Apologies if that post came across as personal but I stand by the overall gist of it i.e.:

1. Mosque demolished by Hindus on 06-Dec-1992
2. Muslims are outraged ( the fact the Mosque was well known to be constructed over a very sacred Temple did not matter at all )
3. Muslims start riots across the country
4. Hindus respond
5. Muslims suffer the most casualties
6. You blame Hindus for the death toll when the fact of the matter is that they very patiently tried to settle the Babri dispute amicably and did so for decades upon decades( not years ). So therefore the blame for the loss of lives and livelihood is squarely on Muslims.
7. If that wasn't sobering more than 30 years later the Muslims haven't budged an INCH on these matters and are pursuing the EXACT same strategy in the case of the Gyanvapi Mosque ( which is also now in courts). It will be interesting to see what you propose the Hindus to do ?

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Apologies if that post came across as personal but I stand by the overall gist of it i.e.:

1. Mosque demolished by Hindus on 06-Dec-1992
2. Muslims are outraged ( the fact the Mosque was well known to be constructed over a very sacred Temple did not matter at all )
3. Muslims start riots across the country
4. Hindus respond
5. Muslims suffer the most casualties
6. You blame Hindus for the death toll when the fact of the matter is that they very patiently tried to settle the Babri dispute amicably and did so for decades upon decades( not years ). So therefore the blame for the loss of lives and livelihood is squarely on Muslims.
7. If that wasn't sobering more than 30 years later the Muslims haven't budged an INCH on these matters and are pursuing the EXACT same strategy in the case of the Gyanvapi Mosque ( which is also now in courts). It will be interesting to see what you propose the Hindus to do ?

One simple question after reading your post. Do you support Israel or Palestine?

 

[uppercut]

One simple question after reading your post. Do you support Israel or Palestine?

I have answered this in the Israel thread a few months back but the answer is : Israel without a shadow of doubt and I have explained this in many posts on one of the Israel threads that was active in the past few months.

Now a similar question to you : who do you support in the recent events in Bangladesh ... Hindus or Muslims ?

 

[The Bald Eagle]

I have answered this in the Israel thread a few months back but the answer is : Israel without a shadow of doubt and I have explained this in many posts on one of the Israel threads that was active in the past few months.

Now a similar question to you : who do you support in the recent events in Bangladesh ... Hindus or Muslims ?

Muslims against Hasina
Hindus against indiscriminate violence.

But pity Uppercut that you went against your own dogma when it came to Palestine.

 

[uppercut]

Muslims against Hasina

So violence was the means to fix that grievance ?

Hindus against indiscriminate violence.

They had very little political say with the situation involving the Hasina govt yet they are the ones that suffered the most.

But pity Uppercut that you went against your own dogma when it came to Palestine.

Please explain how so.

 

[Slim]

Once muslims become majority the Indian Muslims will be no different to a Pakistani or a bangladeshi Muslim. If another partition of India happens and muslims become the majority on the partitioned land, then I can bet my bottom dollar they will make the minorities suffer. This is not a human issue rather an Islamic issue, sub continental muslims cannot let any minorities live in peace with them...

Manipur, Rajisthan, Punjab would like to have a word with you about the crimes of subcontinental Hindu

 

[Champ_Pal]

In their 170 year rule, Mughals had on and off relations with local Hindus and Sikhs.

Babur was a self declared Jihadi. In a poem from his autobiography Babunama, Mr. Babur wrote below.
“For the sake of Islam I became a wanderer, I battled infidels and Hindus, I determined to become a martyr Thank God I became a Killer of Non-Muslims!“

After Babur, it was useless Humayun. No point in talking about him.

Akbar tried to be neutral after his initial fights with Rajputs. He made pacts with them, married their woman and tried to start his own religion. He was branded a kafir by many Muslim scholars.

Jehangir was another clown after Akbar. Not worth talking about.

Then came Aurangzeb. Arguably the greatest Mughal emperor. His empire covered almost 80% of modern India. He was cruel towards non-Muslims and wanted them to convert. That actually created a lot of resentment among majority Hindus and Sikhs.

Aurangzeb was followed by a few nobodies who were basically British puppets. Not worth mentioning.

Overall, Mughals did well to hang onto power for 2 centuries in a diverse country like India. Not easy to control crores of people who follow different faith and speak alien language to what Mughals spoke.

Now coming to the hypothetical situation of Mughals coming back to power, they will not be able to hang onto power even if they win a few battles. In this day and age of information, any kind of oppression will be retaliated quickly. If they want to stay in power they will have to pretty much do appeasement politics in favor of Hindus.

 

[Hitman]

In their 170 year rule, Mughals had on and off relations with local Hindus and Sikhs.

Babur was a self declared Jihadi. In a poem from his autobiography Babunama, Mr. Babur wrote below.
“For the sake of Islam I became a wanderer, I battled infidels and Hindus, I determined to become a martyr Thank God I became a Killer of Non-Muslims!“

After Babur, it was useless Humayun. No point in talking about him.

Akbar tried to be neutral after his initial fights with Rajputs. He made pacts with them, married their woman and tried to start his own religion. He was branded a kafir by many Muslim scholars.

Jehangir was another clown after Akbar. Not worth talking about.

Then came Aurangzeb. Arguably the greatest Mughal emperor. His empire covered almost 80% of modern India. He was cruel towards non-Muslims and wanted them to convert. That actually created a lot of resentment among majority Hindus and Sikhs.

Aurangzeb was followed by a few nobodies who were basically British puppets. Not worth mentioning.

Overall, Mughals did well to hang onto power for 2 centuries in a diverse country like India. Not easy to control crores of people who follow different faith and speak alien language to what Mughals spoke.

Now coming to the hypothetical situation of Mughals coming back to power, they will not be able to hang onto power even if they win a few battles. In this day and age of information, any kind of oppression will be retaliated quickly. If they want to stay in power they will have to pretty much do appeasement politics in favor of Hindus.

There was Shah Jahan between Jahangir and Aurangzeb. You forgot to mention him.

 

[Vikram1989]

That’s because everything else said went over your head. Isse kehte hai dehleez pe thook dena- the English translation will be crude unless not used in medical capacity.


KK Muhammad was also probably something that came out of syllabus for you but you probably don’t “read” too much which is a continuing problem lol

Kk mentioned In his auto biography mentioned that there were 30 to 40 Muslims along with him while escavation.As per him ,As soon as they start excavation any person with common sense can say its built on top of a temple as there were multiple inscrpitures in Nagari script, crocodile faced water outlets ,12 pillers of 11th century was found.An Inscription dated 1114 with donar from Gahadvala dynasty was submitted to judge.it was scrutinised by then epigraphy department again with few Muslims and submitted as an evidence by then joint director.

 

[uppercut]

Apologies if that post came across as personal but I stand by the overall gist of it i.e.:

1. Mosque demolished by Hindus on 06-Dec-1992
2. Muslims are outraged ( the fact the Mosque was well known to be constructed over a very sacred Temple did not matter at all )
3. Muslims start riots across the country
4. Hindus respond
5. Muslims suffer the most casualties
6. You blame Hindus for the death toll when the fact of the matter is that they very patiently tried to settle the Babri dispute amicably and did so for decades upon decades( not years ). So therefore the blame for the loss of lives and livelihood is squarely on Muslims.
7. If that wasn't sobering more than 30 years later the Muslims haven't budged an INCH on these matters and are pursuing the EXACT same strategy in the case of the Gyanvapi Mosque ( which is also now in courts). It will be interesting to see what you propose the Hindus to do ?

@DeadlyVenom No response to that ?

 

[Romali_rotti]

@DeadlyVenom No response to that ?

The good old:: do as we say but please please not as we do.