Mughal Empire Appreciation Thread - Positive Contributions of Mughals in Indian Subcontinent

[JaDed]

I am not sure it is a great point. It is a lot more complex than that.

Many of these Muslim dynasties that went to India fought, lived and died there. Several of these rulers and their soldiers had intermarriages with the locals. Which means a huge chunk of the 200 million indian muslims today would be descendants of these various invading dynasties. There's a heritage link.

For Christians, the story is different. The British and Potuguese rulers kept to themselves, they exploited the local resources and market conditions and sent them back to Europe. They eventually returned to their countries after service. So christians in India today don't have any ancestral links with their European colonisers.

Fair point , but those ancestral links to Mughals are films at best they don’t even speak their language.

 

[Poseidon]

This .

 

[CricketCartoons]

Irrespective I have condemned Ashoka in other threads and have condemned Kings as such .

I do see what Muslims do with Caliphate etc and i realised that unfortunately late in life irrespective isn’t Raj dharma an aspect which Vajpayee always pushed for?
As part of dharmic ideological shouldn’t that matter?

I always saw you as a person with heart at the right place, even though we are on opposite ideologies. Hindus have been fooled by making them feel guilty of being hindu and by putting the burden of secularism on them. These brainwashed hindus become the first responders for commies and islamists and become a useful idiot for them to undermine hindu causes. Many hindus will say that RSS should be banned, or Bajrang Dal should not be so communal. Even right wing hindus say that we should not cross this line, or we should learn to ignore things. I tell them that does the other side even ignore anything remotely related to you? I have worked in TN for 3 years (2020-2023). I found them such good and emotional people who have been brainwashed into believing in ideologies which are going to harm them. I told them that they can hate northies as much as they want, but at least protect your own culture and religion. You are going to see interesting things in TN in next 5-10 years.

 

[sweep_shot]

This is the underlying difference. Subcontinent muslims praise every muslim invader no matter how bad a muslim he was, because he helped the spread of Islam. Indian christians separate the religion from the european colonialists. I admire the muslim viewpoint here, because that is how I want hindus to be.

I condemn injustice no matter who does it. What I do not do is to play along with BJP narratives.

Anyway, this thread is specifically about their positive contributions. For negative stuffs, there are other Mughal threads.

 

[sweep_shot]

This .

Classy Mughal biryani. I also love their paratha (Mughlai paratha).

 

[CricketCartoons]

I condemn injustice no matter who does it. What I do not do is to play along with BJP narratives.

Anyway, this thread is specifically about their positive contributions. For negative stuffs, there are other Mughal threads.

Appreciate your virtue signalling, but no need. I already admire you. Your definition of injustice may be different to mine.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Classy Mughal biryani. I also love their paratha (Mughlai paratha).

I have not found Moghlai paratha outside bengal. Too much oil. Tumi ranna koro?

 

[sweep_shot]

I have not found Moghlai paratha outside bengal. Too much oil. Tumi ranna koro?

Mughlai paratha is quite popular in Bangladesh. I also found it in Toronto (one store sells it).

Ranna pari but Mughlai paratha pari na.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Mughlai paratha is quite popular in Bangladesh. I also found it in Toronto (one store sells it).

Ranna pari but Mughlai paratha pari na.

I have been to Dhaka. Bengali non veg good is under rated in India, most indians only know of bengali sweets. Ami gorur mangsho chaara sob kichu ranna kori.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

That’s exactly the same logic for Saudi vs Yemen, Israel vs Palestine but we know which matters more, even to Pakistanis India attacking will matter more than Iran attacking them which was obvious.

No it isnt the same.

 

[RexRex]

Hindus have been fooled by making them feel guilty of being hindu and by putting the burden of secularism on them. These brainwashed hindus become the first responders for commies and islamists and become a useful idiot for them to undermine hindu causes. Many hindus will say that RSS should be banned, or Bajrang Dal should not be so communal. Even right wing hindus say that we should not cross this line, or we should learn to ignore things.

Which line is it that you want to cross ? Your critiques are the same in most India threads - that hindus are apologists and weak but you've never specifically said what it is you want to change.

Do you want the laws and Constution of India to be amended ? Maybe declare India as a hindu theocracry where minorites are officially declared as second class citizens ?

 

[CricketCartoons]

Which line is it that you want to cross ? Your critiques are the same in most India threads - that hindus are apologists and weak but you've never specifically said what it is you want to change.

Do you want the laws and Constution of India to be amended ? Maybe declare India as a hindu theocracry where minorites are officially declared as second class citizens ?

Laws and constitution of india is amended all the time. Or do you think it is the gospel? Constitution is to serve the people, not the other way round.

 

[RexRex]

Fair point , but those ancestral links to Mughals are films at best they don’t even speak their language.

Given that India was attacked about by half a dozen muslim dynasties since 1000AD and they stayed rather than leave, I would guess that a majority of the muslims in subcontinent are descendants of these invaders. So that's more than 100 million in population.

Is that a fair estimate ?

 

[RexRex]

Laws and constitution of india is amended all the time. Or do you think it is the gospel? Constitution is to serve the people, not the other way round.

You missed the last line. Read it and tell us if that is what you want ?

 

[Champ_Pal]

An invader is an invader if he or she does not adopt to the local customs and traditions. Almost all of them kept it to themselves. Akbar tried a bit and he was deemed a kafir.

The fact is, India was already rich before Mughals came. It was Central Asia that was suffering with poverty and chaos all the time. The sedentary people of India had no answer to the Turko-Mongol hordes.

Mughals may have done some contribution to the Indian advancement . You can say that about any invading force trying to takeover someone else’s land and resources. In indias case, it would still have been self sufficient without all these foreign forces occupying it.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

And Christians in India don't consider Portuguese as some kind of heroes.

No, instead it seems you have drawn a line under it because you don't want to upset Christian nations, and instead make a hue and cry about Mughal legacy instead. But I actually agree with the hindutvas who have been calling from an apology from the Pope, at least they seem to be standing up and making their voices heard.

 

[Champ_Pal]

What about the Hindu empires and rival kingdoms?

What Hindu empires or Buddhist empires did in India is an internal matter.
Almost every Islamic kingdom or Empore was in conflict with its neighboring Muslim empires. That does not give a non- Muslim force to come and occupy them and enforce protection tax on locals.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Irrespective I have condemned Ashoka in other threads and have condemned Kings as such .

I do see what Muslims do with Caliphate etc and i realised that unfortunately late in life irrespective isn’t Raj dharma an aspect which Vajpayee always pushed for?
As part of dharmic ideological shouldn’t that matter?

Ashoka’s nickname was Chand Ashok. Which means Tyrant Ashoka.

 

[uppercut]

Genocide is good if you give people biriyani

I noticed that too .... quite disturbing. And the same folks cry a river when Israel dishes out the same meds to their fellow religionists.

This thread is a living breathing live example of why there will never be any peace for Non-Muslims in any place where there is any sort of Muslim population. Just shocking medieval rogue bully mentality even in 21st century.

Appears that they are built with a completely different moral compass altogether, with no compunctions whatsoever. In their mind they are very very clear and un-apologetic about what Non-Muslims deserve ... so much so that they actually are convinced that they are making the world a better place thru their actions .... whether it be rationalizing Jizya, forced conversions, Temple destruction or plain good old fashioned genocide. Disgraceful.

​

 

[Champ_Pal]

Given that India was attacked about by half a dozen muslim dynasties since 1000AD and they stayed rather than leave, I would guess that a majority of the muslims in subcontinent are descendants of these invaders. So that's more than 100 million in population.

Is that a fair estimate ?

Indian Muslims have nothing to do with any central Asian or Arab people.
Indian Muslims are broadly divided into 3 categories

Ashraf - only about 5-6% of Muslim population. They include mixed populations with invaders, Upper caste converts and Mixed Pathans.

Ajlaf - they are converts from Shudras, backward castes and Orher backward castes. They form almost 70% of Muslim population in India.

Arzal - They are Dalit converts and they form about 20% of Muslim populations in India.

Ashraf don’t marry Ajlaf or Arzal. Ajlaf don’t marry Arzal.

Mos celebrity Muslims and prominent ones with political power are all Ashrafis.

 

[sweep_shot]

I noticed that too .... quite disturbing. And the same folks cry a river when Israel dishes out the same meds to their fellow religionists.

This thread is a living breathing live example of why there will never be any peace for Non-Muslims in any place where there is any sort of Muslim population. Just shocking medieval rogue bully mentality even in 21st century.

Appears that they are built with a completely different moral compass altogether, with no compunctions whatsoever. In their mind they are very very clear and un-apologetic about what Non-Muslims deserve ... so much so that they actually are convinced that they are making the world a better place thru their actions .... whether it be rationalizing Jizya, forced conversions, Temple destruction or plain good old fashioned genocide. Disgraceful.

​

Nobody supported genocide here.

Indians aren't exactly the right people to lecture on human rights. We know what you did during Gujrat massacre, 1984 anti-Sikh riots, Kashmir etc.

There are many places where Muslims and non-Muslims are living peacefully side by side. Looks like you get your knowledge from B-grade BJP news channels.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

What Hindu empires or Buddhist empires did in India is an internal matter.
Almost every Islamic kingdom or Empore was in conflict with its neighboring Muslim empires. That does not give a non- Muslim force to come and occupy them and enforce protection tax on locals.

When thise hindu empires attacked another kingdom did the people they attack consider it an internal matter?

 

[uppercut]

Nobody supported genocide here.

The fact that you are singing praises of Mughal rulers in 2024 , who specialized in massacres is there for everybody to see.

Indians aren't exactly the right people to lecture on human rights. We know what you did during Gujrat massacre, 1984 anti-Sikh riots, Kashmir etc.

Who started these episodes and which Indian poster here goes about rationalizing these events ? Lets start with Gujrat who killed unarmed Hindu pilgrims mostly women and children travelling in a train in broad daylight ?

There are many places where Muslims and non-Muslims are living peacefully side by side. Looks like you get your knowledge from B-grade BJP news channels.

Such as ? The biggest example is in India where Muslims demanded a separate state and they are on record for reasons to separate leading to what is the worlds most horrific communal violence where the death toll beggars belief.

You should be the very last person on Gods green earth to talk about peace with that sort of track record.

 

[sweep_shot]

The fact that you are singing praises of Mughal rulers in 2024 , who specialized in massacres is there for everybody to see.




Who started these episodes and which Indian poster here goes about rationalizing these events ? Lets start with Gujrat who killed unarmed Hindu pilgrims mostly women and children travelling in a train in broad daylight ?




Such as ? The biggest example is in India where Muslims demanded a separate state and they are on record for reasons to separate leading to what is the worlds most horrific communal violence where the death toll beggars belief.

You should be the very last person on Gods green earth to talk about peace with that sort of track record.

I was highlighting positive contributions of Mughals.

Mughals were just like many other empires (Spanish Empire, British Empire, Portuguese Empire, French Empire etc.).

Also, I noticed you cheekily avoided talking about 1984 anti-Sikh riot. It doesn't fit the narrative perhaps. This was also not the first anti-Sikh event.

 

[uppercut]

I was highlighting positive contributions of Mughals.

Mughals were just like many other empires (Spanish Empire, British Empire, Portuguese Empire, French Empire etc.).

Highlighting positive contributions of Mughals is a bit like highlighting contributions of the German Nazi rule claiming that they built world class transportation system. Do you understand the problem or should I spell that out for you ?

Also, I noticed you cheekily avoided talking about 1984 anti-Sikh riot. It doesn't fit the narrative perhaps. This was also not the first anti-Sikh event.

Nope I said start with Gujrat, not avoid the other 2 ... read my post again. So who started Gujrat massacre ?

 

[sweep_shot]

Highlighting positive contributions of Mughals is a bit like highlighting contributions of the German Nazi rule claiming that they built world class transportation system. Do you understand the problem or should I spell that out for you ?




Nope I said start with Gujrat, not avoid the other 2 ... read my post again. So who started Gujrat massacre ?

Mughals are not like Nazis. If you think they are, 90% of the empires in that period were Nazis also.

Only some Indians may consider Mughals to be Nazis. Nobody else.

Regarding Gujrat, if someone starts something, it doesn't mean you behave like a bunch of animals and commit massacre. You take the criminal to court. That's how a civilized society behaves.

 

[Rajdeep]

There is no better time to remember the genocide committed by Mughal terrorists than just a day before Ayodhya Temple inaugration. Not sure if it was intentional but my token of thanks to OP for opening this thread.

 

[sweep_shot]

One thing I would appreciate is the timing of the thread. There is no better time to remember the genocide committed by Mughal terrorists than just a day before Ayodhya Temple inaugration. Not sure if it was intentional but my token of thanks to OP for opening this thread.

It is a reminder how Mughals dominated India just like how Australia dominated India in 2023 WC final.

 

[Rajdeep]

It is a reminder how Mughals dominated India just like how Australia dominated India in 2023 WC final.

Oh no, getting touchy now are we?

Mughals dominated Indian subcontinent by force, something Israel is doing now to Palestine. We are just erasing the evil history, starting from Ram Mandir inauguration on Monday.

 

[uppercut]

Mughals are not like Nazis.

ohh yeah .... if so then Iam Santa Clauss .... as I said before this is a case of unique moral compass that is specialty of Muslims. I mean which British and Portugese or Germans do you find gloating over their past ?

Here this is a just ONE single random example and this episode and this is during Akbar who people paint as a very benovelent ruler. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Chittorgarh_(1567–1568)

Now imagine what must have happened under other Muslim rulers who were not so benevolent.

If you think they are, 90% of the empires in that period were Nazis also.

Then it becomes even more pertinent for you to distance yourselves with these "Empires" .... but thats my moral compass ... How does your moral compass evaluate this ?

Only some Indians may consider Mughals to be Nazis. Nobody else.

Go ahead and provide your interpretation of the Wiki Link I posted above ( Sieze of Chittor ) ... I want to see how you interpret that event considering how our moral compass's are much different.

Regarding Gujrat, if someone starts something, it doesn't mean you behave like a bunch of animals and commit massacre. You take the criminal to court. That's how a civilized society behaves.

If you want all benefits of Civilized society then the first order of business is to behave like one. Now go ahead and tell me when was the last time you un-conditionally condemned the Godhra massacre.

 

[sweep_shot]

Oh no, getting touchy now are we?

Mughals dominated Indian subcontinent by force, something Israel is doing now to Palestine. We are just erasing the evil history, starting from Ram Mandir inauguration on Monday. Your thread is a timely reminder of the genocide, so thank you.

Israel and Mughal are not the same.

Israel kicked out Palestinians from their lands and took over. Look up "Naqba".

Mughals ruled India just like British Empire did. They didn't displace. Indian lands are still with Indians.

So, not the same.

 

[I think therfore I am]

ohh yeah .... if so then Iam Santa Clauss .... as I said before this is a case of unique moral compass that is specialty of Muslims. I mean which British and Portugese or Germans do you find gloating over their past ?

Here this is a just ONE single random example and this episode and this is during Akbar who people paint as a very benovelent ruler. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Chittorgarh_(1567–1568)

Now imagine what must have happened under other Muslim rulers who were not so benevolent.




Then it becomes even more pertinent for you to distance yourselves with these "Empires" .... but thats my moral compass ... How does your moral compass evaluate this ?




Go ahead and provide your interpretation of the Wiki Link I posted above ( Sieze of Chittor ) ... I want to see how you interpret that event considering how our moral compass's are much different.




If you want all benefits of Civilized society then the first order of business is to behave like one. Now go ahead and tell me when was the last time you un-conditionally condemned the Godhra massacre.

If not for the Mugahls, Genghis Khan would have conquered all of India and mascared all

 

[sweep_shot]

Question is why did Indians always get dominated? They got dominated by Mughals and then British. Almost 600 years of domination.

It is only after 1962 Indo-Sino war (which they lost badly), they started to take military seriously.

 

[Rajdeep]

Israel and Mughal are not the same.

Israel kicked out Palestinians from their lands and took over. Look up "Naqba".

Mughals ruled India just like British Empire did. They didn't displace. Indian lands are still with Indians.

So, not the same.

Actually what Mughals did is even worse. They forcefully converted the religion of millions of hindus, broken their places of worships, tried to change the demography and made Indians subservant in their own country. Unlike today where we see Free Palestine protest every weekend in London, there was no one human rights back then and no one to raise the voice for hindus. Your support for them with a 'Free Palestine' signature is comically ironical. As I said, you are only supporting an evil empire like Mughal simply due to their religious faith. No point pretending otherwise.

 

[uppercut]

If not for the Mugahls, Genghis Khan would have conquered all of India and mascared all

How would he do that from his grave considering that he was dead for about 200 yrs before Babur?

 

[Rajdeep]

If not for the Mugahls, Genghis Khan would have conquered all of India and mascared all

Hain? Yeh kab hua dost?

Isn't Babur was a 5th generation descendant of Genghis Khan through his mother's side?

Babur beat Ibrahim Lodi in 1504, the sultanate of Delhi which was already weak at that time. That is how Mughal empire started.

 

[Rajdeep]

Question is why did Indians always get dominated? They got dominated by Mughals and then British. Almost 600 years of domination.

It is only after 1962 Indo-Sino war (which they lost badly), they started to take military seriously.

Indians?

Your question should be - why did we subcontinent people always got invaded by evil empires in the past and how do we ensure it never happens in future.

 

[JaDed]

Given that India was attacked about by half a dozen muslim dynasties since 1000AD and they stayed rather than leave, I would guess that a majority of the muslims in subcontinent are descendants of these invaders. So that's more than 100 million in population.

Is that a fair estimate ?

Can’t tell, even if they are their ancestral links are only of religion, is there anything else that ties them to this? Mughal rulers many drank , spoke probably Persian, I doubt they were pious Muslims.

 

[Suleiman]

Nevertheless, Mughals came and converted millions of Indians into Islam. Since 1947, followers of that faith has been given a separate country. All we are now saying is, please leave us alone now and let us decide whom we want to appreciate. If Indians consider Mughals as invaders and want to erase their names, they have all the right to do so.

Just as you say you have the right to erase Mughal influence, we have the right to remember them.
But as usual, Indians phir ro rahein hain

Can’t really blame them though. Heavily edited textbooks and media with plenty of propaganda to make their pagan centric empires look like shining beacons of hope and peace while any and all outsider as evil- unless they were angraiz or Portuguese ofc.

 

[I think therfore I am]

Hain? Yeh kab hua dost?

Isn't Babur was a 5th generation descendant of Genghis Khan through his mother's side?

Babur beat Ibrahim Lodi in 1504, the sultanate of Delhi which was already weak at that time. That is how Mughal empire started.

What i was referring to was

The Battle of Kili between the Mongols of the Chagatai Khanate under Qutlugh Khwaja and the Delhi Sultanate led Alauddin Khilji in 1299. It resulted in the expulsion of the Mongol forces from the Indian Subcontinent.

FYI no Hindu army was strong enough to do this

 

[I think therfore I am]

Indians?

Your question should be - why did we subcontinent people always got invaded by evil empires in the past and how do we ensure it never happens in future.

Simple answer too weak. The biggest humiliation for Indian sub continent was the partiion. Damm

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Actually what Mughals did is even worse. They forcefully converted the religion of millions of hindus, broken their places of worships, tried to change the demography and made Indians subservant in their own country. Unlike today where we see Free Palestine protest every weekend in London, there was no one human rights back then and no one to raise the voice for hindus. Your support for them with a 'Free Palestine' signature is comically ironical. As I said, you are only supporting an evil empire like Mughal simply due to their religious faith. No point pretending otherwise.

This propagation that Mughals forcefully converted hindus to Islam might be popular in recent hindutva literature, but then why would there be any hindus left in India? Are you saying that the hindus that remained hindus are of certain regions and that proves their martial abilities?

 

[Asad T]

Question is why did Indians always get dominated? They got dominated by Mughals and then British. Almost 600 years of domination.

It is only after 1962 Indo-Sino war (which they lost badly), they started to take military seriously.

This question is flawed imo -- before the UK came and screwed around the sub-contentient, people in what is now India didn't have any concept of what "India" was.

The folks living in Gujrat and Bengal didn't consider themselves members of the same nation. So to say "why did indians always get dominated" is a misnomer.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

My families are Hindu and Sikh, Dharmic identity is being associated with Dharmic faith.

I have come to believe Hindu and Sikhs have to be strong to protect dharmic religion like Jainism.

But dharmic would be along the lines of Islamic statehood i suppose..

Does Dharmic centre only in the Indian region? I ask because Buddhism has spread among all humanity across all borders, similarly to many Abrahamic religions and beliefs.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Also, I noticed you cheekily avoided talking about 1984 anti-Sikh riot. It doesn't fit the narrative perhaps. This was also not the first anti-Sikh event.

Yeah agree your Raul Puppu's party was involved in the Sikh Riots. You were talking about how Puppu would be a good PM for India in another thread.


You seem to have a habit for strongly supporting invaders, rioters etc...

 

[JaDed]

Does Dharmic centre only in the Indian region? I ask because Buddhism has spread among all humanity across all borders, similarly to many Abrahamic religions and beliefs.

I didn’t compare it to Abrahamic did i.

 

[sweep_shot]

This question is flawed imo -- before the UK came and screwed around the sub-contentient, people in what is now India didn't have any concept of what "India" was.

The folks living in Gujrat and Bengal didn't consider themselves members of the same nation. So to say "why did indians always get dominated" is a misnomer.

Looks like my question/post wasn't clear.

My question was for those Indians who said their ancestors were strong enough to avoid conversions (I think ChennaiFan said that; I lost the post's location). If they were very strong, why did they get dominated for around 600 years?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I didn’t compare it to Abrahamic did i.

Why not? Do you feel it wouldn't measure up?

 

[rpant_gabba]

Israel and Mughal are not the same.

Israel kicked out Palestinians from their lands and took over. Look up "Naqba".

Mughals ruled India just like British Empire did. They didn't displace. Indian lands are still with Indians.

So, not the same.

Isn't there a huge population of Arabs living in Israel?

Wasn't Trans-Jordan planning to absorb majority of what would have been Palestinian state?

Wasn't Egypt controlling Gaza till 67?

 

[sweep_shot]

Isn't there a huge population of Arabs living in Israel?

Wasn't Trans-Jordan planning to absorb majority of what would have been Palestinian state?

Wasn't Egypt controlling Gaza till 67?

The Nakba (Arabic: النكبة an-Nakbah, lit. 'The Catastrophe') is the violent displacement and dispossession of the Palestinian people, along with the destruction of their society, culture, identity, political rights, and national aspirations.[1] The term is used to describe the events that took place during the 1948 Palestine war, as well as the ongoing persecution and displacement of Palestinians by Israel throughout the Palestinian territories (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip).[2]

During the foundational events of the Nakba in 1948, dozens of anti-Arab massacres were conducted and about 400 Arab-majority towns and villages were depopulated;[3] with many of these being either completely destroyed or repopulated by Jewish residents and given new Hebrew names. Approximately 750,000[4] Palestinian Arabs (about half of Palestine's Arab population) fled from their homes or were expelled by Zionist militias and later the Israeli army in what is now Israel proper, which covers 78% of the total land area of the former Mandatory Palestine.

Reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba.

Mughals didn't displace the Indians. India is still with Indians.

Comparing Mughals to Israel is ignorance. Anyway, let's not derail this thread by going off-topic.

 

[cricketjoshila]

No, instead it seems you have drawn a line under it because you don't want to upset Christian nations, and instead make a hue and cry about Mughal legacy instead. But I actually agree with the hindutvas who have been calling from an apology from the Pope, at least they seem to be standing up and making their voices heard.

India makes no bones about talking and exposing the tyranny of British and the Portugese. Indian Christians don't have any issues with it.

Some Indian Muslims though consider Mughals as Heroes.

 

[JaDed]

Why not? Do you feel it wouldn't measure up?

Measure up to what ?

 

[JaDed]

India makes no bones about talking and exposing the tyranny of British and the Portugese. Indian Christians don't have any issues with it.

Some Indian Muslims though consider Mughals as Heroes.

It’s actually very weird it’s usually the Pakistanis that have always lined up to Brits and Americans, it’s amusing yo see how even their ruling elite bow down to Western nations at every junction and yet they keep whining about British and Portuguese to us.

I have come to believe there is some inner angst there somewhere that they are dependent upon handouts from West for everything.

 

[CricketCartoons]

It’s actually very weird it’s usually the Pakistanis that have always lined up to Brits and Americans, it’s amusing yo see how even their ruling elite bow down to Western nations at every junction and yet they keep whining about British and Portuguese to us.

I have come to believe there is some inner angst there somewhere that they are dependent upon handouts from West for everything.

No, it is not some angst about western dependency. They play the west like a fiddle, taking money from them while still being anti western.

The problem is somewhere else. Hindus keep lining up to impress Pakistanis that your music is best, your food it best, sanghis are bad, india pakistan are friends, azaan sounds so musical, hanuman looks so angry, taj mahal so beautiful, ellora so overcomplicated, pakistanis so handsome, indians so bimaru. You will forget 26/11 but agree with them that india is sending terrorist to pakistan. Somehow these hindus, by going full supine want pakistanis to pat their backs and say you are a good indian, the one who opens his mouth if the master wants to spit.

We dont need to so psychoanalysis on pakistanis. They are perfectly fine and have a good understanding of their past, the present and future. They are ghairat mund. It is the hindus who need psychoanalysis. Something very wrong with them.

 

[rpant_gabba]

Reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba.

Mughals didn't displace the Indians. India is still with Indians.

Comparing Mughals to Israel is ignorance. Anyway, let's not derail this thread by going off-topic.

that is a weak non-sequitir post.

address the points I raised. didn't arab nations get together and attack israel in 1948? which also contributed to the nakba

1948 Arab–Israeli War - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In 1946–47, Abdullah said that he had no intention to "resist or impede the partition of Palestine and creation of a Jewish state." Ideally, Abdullah would have liked to annex all of Palestine, but he was prepared to compromise.He supported the partition, intending that the West Bank area of the British Mandate allocated for the Arab state be annexed to Jordan.Abdullah held secret meetings with the Jewish Agency (at which the future Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir was among the delegates) that reached an agreement of Jewish non-interference with Jordanian annexation of the West Bank (although Abdullah failed in his goal of acquiring an outlet to the Mediterranean Sea through the Negev desert) and of Jordanian agreement not to attack the area of the Jewish state contained in the United Nations partition resolution (in which Jerusalem was given neither to the Arab nor the Jewish state, but was to be an internationally administered area). In order to keep their support to his plan of annexation of the Arab State, Abdullah promised to the British he would not attack the Jewish State.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

It’s actually very weird it’s usually the Pakistanis that have always lined up to Brits and Americans, it’s amusing yo see how even their ruling elite bow down to Western nations at every junction and yet they keep whining about British and Portuguese to us.

I have come to believe there is some inner angst there somewhere that they are dependent upon handouts from West for everything.

We are going off topic here and I can see that now that you are "amused" and starting to bite at British Pakistanis, then maybe we need to disengage and allow the thread to remain on topic. There have been some interesting points made here which would benefit from discussion in their own regard.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Israel and Mughal are not the same.

Israel kicked out Palestinians from their lands and took over. Look up "Naqba".

Mughals ruled India just like British Empire did. They didn't displace. Indian lands are still with Indians.

So, not the same.

I don't understand your point. The Mughals did contribute in many ways - certainly in terms of some material progress. But progress while being dominated is perhaps not what the majority want to remember . Also what is to say society would not have progressed in the absence of Mughals? Are they the only ones who brought progress in that time period?

Take a look at Palestine. The most material progress they have ever had any progress is under Israel . Do you think Palestinians are ever going to be happy with a dominant Israel who are a technologically superior entity when they have been beaten into submission while their useless co-religionists twiddled their thumbs and did nothing except howl away on internet forums ?

The World is changing and India is definitely constructing a new identity - for better or for worse .

The Mughals are ancient history and have zero relevance in the new scheme of things.

And it's a myth that Taj Mahal brings the most foreign tourists in India

What rubbish . The most popular places are Goa, Kerala , Himachal etc..

If you think the average foreigner is interested in Mughal history then you give them way too much credit. They could care less.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I don't understand your point. The Mughals did contribute in many ways - certainly in terms of some material progress. But progress while being dominated is perhaps not what the majority want to remember . Also what is to say society would not have progressed in the absence of Mughals? Are they the only ones who brought progress in that time period?

Take a look at Palestine. The most material progress they have ever had any progress is under Israel . Do you think Palestinians are ever going to be happy with a dominant Israel who are a technologically superior entity when they have been beaten into submission while their useless co-religionists twiddled their thumbs and did nothing except howl away on internet forums ?

The World is changing and India is definitely constructing a new identity - for better or for worse .

The Mughals are ancient history and have zero relevance in the new scheme of things.

And it's a myth that Taj Mahal brings the most foreign tourists in India

What rubbish . The most popular places are Goa, Kerala , Himachal etc..

If you think the average foreigner is interested in Mughal history then you give them way too much credit. They could care less.

You can see it across the board, and in fact keyboard warriors can be found amongst the more IT savvy world as you would expect.

Not that there is anything wrong with it, even if you don't have the ability to bomb people into dust, shouldn't we still have the right to raise our voices against injustice?

 

[Nikhil_cric]

You can see it across the board, and in fact keyboard warriors can be found amongst the more IT savvy world as you would expect.

Not that there is anything wrong with it, even if you don't have the ability to bomb people into dust, shouldn't we still have the right to raise our voices against injustice?

And what good has that done for anyone - Iraq, Palestine or anyone else?

Powerful state actors are acting in their own interests and destroying people with impunity .

Only in the post war period , was there ever an illusion of a peaceful international order. Increasingly , the myth is bust - if it already wasn't obvious with US actions in Vietnam, South America and the Middle East.

We are back to pre 1945 norms - morality is shaped by power and nothing else.

 

[sweep_shot]

Mughal issue is not same as Israel issue. Not even close. Different time periods and different variables.

Not sure why some Indian posters are bringing in Israel here. This is not an Israel thread. This thread is about positive contributions of Mughals.

If you want to talk about alleged negatives of Mughals, open a thread about it maybe.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Mughal issue is not same as Israel issue. Not even close. Different time periods and different variables.

Not sure why some Indian posters are bringing in Israel here. This is not an Israel thread. This thread is about positive contributions of Mughals.

If you want to talk about alleged negatives of Mughals, open a thread about it maybe.

This is the beauty of free market of opinions. Every view gets to be challenged. If we want echo chambers then we can have threads about positive contribution of Israel and no one would be allowed to challenge the idea in the thread.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Mughal issue is not same as Israel issue. Not even close. Different time periods and different variables.

Not sure why some Indian posters are bringing in Israel here. This is not an Israel thread. This thread is about positive contributions of Mughals.

If you want to talk about alleged negatives of Mughals, open a thread about it maybe.

The standards of morality should apply across time periods.

You can't use the framework of human rights and cry foul when it comes to the occupation of Palestine

And then sit and praise empires that were built on war, coercion and domination - no matter what material progress they have brought about.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

This is the beauty of free market of opinions. Every view gets to be challenged. If we want echo chambers then we can have threads about positive contribution of Israel and no one would be allowed to challenge the idea in the thread.

This. Israeli occupation is the greatest thing to happen to Palestinians because the natives are too backward to rule themselves .

Let's see if this view is acceptable or not.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

This. Israeli occupation is the greatest thing to happen to Palestinians because the natives are too backward to rule themselves .

Let's see if this view is acceptable or not.

Could we use the same logic to say that the the holocaust was the greatest thing to happen to the Jews as it eventually led to the destruction of the Nazi regime? If you agree I will raise a thread to celebrate the genocide of the Jews in 20th century Germany.

 

[Rajdeep]

Mughal issue is not same as Israel issue. Not even close. Different time periods and different variables.

Not sure why some Indian posters are bringing in Israel here. This is not an Israel thread. This thread is about positive contributions of Mughals.

If you want to talk about alleged negatives of Mughals, open a thread about it maybe.

I first brought Israel in this thread (post#124) and drew parallel as both are similar cases. Appreciating Mughals but condemning Israel when both basically did the same genocide is hypocritical in my view. Atleast Palestine people are getting lots of support considering its social media age whereas there was no human rights when Mughals did genocide on hindus. I am glad that many agreeing with me that Mughals did the same as Israel and even worse. There is no point appreciating Taj Mahal when it has blood in it.

 

[Rajdeep]

Could we use the same logic to say that the the holocaust was the greatest thing to happen to the Jews as it eventually led to the destruction of the Nazi regime? If you agree I will raise a thread to celebrate the genocide of the Jews in 20th century Germany.

How did holocaust led to the defeat of Nazi regime? The entire extent of Holocaust and gas chambers were only discovered after Hitlers death when Berlin already fallen to Allied powers. Nazi's lost when they tried to take on Soviet Union during harsh winter in Russia. Pls dnt distort the history...LOL.

 

[sweep_shot]

I first brought Israel in this thread (post#124) and drew parallel as both are similar cases. Appreciating Mughals but condemning Israel when both basically did the same genocide is hypocritical in my view. Atleast Palestine people are getting lots of support considering its social media age whereas there was no human rights when Mughals did genocide on hindus. I am glad that many agreeing with me that Mughals did the same as Israel and even worse. There is no point appreciating Taj Mahal when it has blood in it.

Mughals didn't kick Indians out of India. They ruled it. But, that time period was like that. Many empires ruled many places. They are now all gone. That time period is gone.

Israelis are kicking Palestinians out of their lands. Israel is displacing the Palestinians. Look up "illegal Israeli settlements".

So, not the same issue.

Anyway, we are going in circles.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Could we use the same logic to say that the the holocaust was the greatest thing to happen to the Jews as it eventually led to the destruction of the Nazi regime? If you agree I will raise a thread to celebrate the genocide of the Jews in 20th century Germany.

I didn't say I agree with it. When you point out the glories of an empire , don't expect anyone to agree with it beyond a point.

However, go ahead and create the thread since you clearly believe that to be the case.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I didn't say I agree with it. When you point out the glories of an empire , don't expect anyone to agree with it beyond a point.

However, go ahead and create the thread since you clearly believe that to be the case.

But you objected to those who raise their voices against the slaughter of Palestinians using language which was obviously deemed inapproprate. I have no problem with it, but I don't make the rules.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

But you objected to those who raise their voices against the slaughter of Palestinians using language which was obviously deemed inapproprate. I have no problem with it, but I don't make the rules.

I don't object to it. I said it's pointless/useless.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I don't object to it. I said it's pointless/useless.

Bringing awareness to genocide is never pointless or useless.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Mughals didn't kick Indians out of India. They ruled it. But, that time period was like that. Many empires ruled many places. They are now all gone. That time period is gone.

Israelis are kicking Palestinians out of their lands. Israel is displacing the Palestinians. Look up "illegal Israeli settlements".

So, not the same issue.

Anyway, we are going in circles.

Which books have you read about mughals? Out of curiosity.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Bringing awareness to genocide is never pointless or useless.

Great empires were built on genocide. Bringing awareness to this genocide is not stopping the Israelis or the West or even slowing them down.

So yes , it's pointless.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Mughals didn't kick Indians out of India. They ruled it. But, that time period was like that. Many empires ruled many places. They are now all gone. That time period is gone.

Israelis are kicking Palestinians out of their lands. Israel is displacing the Palestinians. Look up "illegal Israeli settlements".

So, not the same issue.

Anyway, we are going in circles.

Mughals despite all of their torturous tactics couldn't convert the majority, how will they kick the majority out? .

Invaders are called invaders. Just like British or Portuguese were invaders so were the Mughals.

That time is gone and people are decolonizing. And that decolonizing isn't limited to one time period.

Jews were displaced from their land. When they got a small part of the land back, Palestinians and their allies tried to remove them by force. Now most of those allies have high tailed in face of the Israeli might. Palestinians led by Hamas have now resorted to asymmetric warfare.

Its a war and Israel is winning it. And with every win, they are gaining territory. That's what happens in wars.

 

[sweep_shot]

Which books have you read about mughals? Out of curiosity.

I have read about these in high school textbooks when I was living back home.

After that, I mostly read stuffs or watched stuffs from online.

Anyway, what I said was right. Mughals didn't displace the Indians. Indians still have their lands.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Great empires were built on genocide. Bringing awareness to this genocide is not stopping the Israelis or the West or even slowing them down.

So yes , it's pointless.

If whining about genocide was pointless I doubt you'd be reading stories or watching films about the Jewish holocaust for the past century. If the Zionists are committing genocide then it is important that it is being chronicled. In both east and west the mood is starting to turn against israel with the possible exception of Bharat. Starbucks had to flee Morrocco once the public hit back with the boycott, that is the value of speaking out against genocide.

 

[JaDed]

We are going off topic here and I can see that now that you are "amused" and starting to bite at British Pakistanis, then maybe we need to disengage and allow the thread to remain on topic. There have been some interesting points made here which would benefit from discussion in their own regard.

That’s alright cap, open a thread take a dig at us and be happy.
You are not looking for any benefit except to bring down others.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

If whining about genocide was pointless I doubt you'd be reading stories or watching films about the Jewish holocaust for the past century. If the Zionists are committing genocide then it is important that it is being chronicled. In both east and west the mood is starting to turn against israel with the possible exception of Bharat. Starbucks had to flee Morrocco once the public hit back with the boycott, that is the value of speaking out against genocide.

And until and unless you boycotted their businesses which is in itself a form of economic warfare you didn't even get so much as a second look from the Zionists.

Not sure what India has to do here. This has never been India's fight. We are not the ones who gave historically supported the colonial domination.

Everytime you proudly call yourself a Brit, maybe you should closer home to see who has backed Israeli violence against Palestine before taking such a moral high ground.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

And until and unless you boycotted their businesses which is in itself a form of economic warfare you didn't even get so much as a second look from the Zionists.

Not sure what India has to do here. This has never been India's fight. We are not the ones who gave historically supported the colonial domination.

Everytime you proudly call yourself a Brit, maybe you should closer home to see who has backed Israeli violence against Palestine before taking such a moral high ground.

Going by the replies from Bharati posters, it seems they back Israeli violence against Palestine, that was the reason I mentioned it, in fact there has even been a thread raised on that very topic. That's not a criticism by the way, you are free to back whoever you want, it was just an observation.

In Britain the mood of the public has shifted pretty heavily against Israel, even Sunak has quietened down after initially saying there was no question of balance, Britain stood firmly with Israel.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Going by the replies from Bharati posters, it seems they back Israeli violence against Palestine, that was the reason I mentioned it, in fact there has even been a thread raised on that very topic. That's not a criticism by the way, you are free to back whoever you want, it was just an observation.

In Britain the mood of the public has shifted pretty heavily against Israel, even Sunak has quietened down after initially saying there was no question of balance, Britain stood firmly with Israel.

Even the most right wing government in India won't support Israeli actions in Palestine regardless of popular support for Israel.

On the other hand , even the most left wing governments in Britain will never completely stop regardless of whether there is popular support for Israel or not.

Britain is committed to further Israeli interests . So no, there is no equivalence there.

If you are a Brit, you necessarily support Zionist actions regardless of what your personal opinion is. It's simply the nature of the British state.