What do you think of Two Nation Theory? Has it failed or worked out well?

[mithun_minhas]

Tamils can be fair as well.Its a misconception that Tamils are dark.

Agreed. The below picture is of a tamil man. Aravind Swamy.

 

[adit_sh]

I am not talking about what you want. You are free to be go to any nation you like. But India should have been a Hindu nation. There are Catholic and Islamic nations, but no Hindu nation in the world. India should stop being apologetic about its dharmic past, and do everything to protect and promote the Hindu religion. The Indian muslims should be given another piece of land and there should be a permanent settlement. So that India can get rid of its hindu muslim problem and both Muslims and Hindus can live in separate countries. Muslims would be happy that they will become a majority instead of minority and no longer oppressed by hindus, and hindus can be happy that they can have a complete beef ban, end to love jihad and vote bank politics. Win win for both.

If you believe India is a hindu nation then I would like to iterate that Hindu in principle accepts/preach that all religion leads to one GOD. So inherently it is secular. The recent developments from RSS/VHP or any other prominent outfits are just reciprocating to what other religions are doing in terms of conversion all over the world. Minority of population indulging in anti-secular activities does not mean that the identity is in question. The majority of population irrespective of any religion are secular.

We are secular, accepts all religion and we should strive to achieve that 100%. Our identity has been secularism since many 1000 years ago.

 

[CricketCartoons]

If you believe India is a hindu nation then I would like to iterate that Hindu in principle accepts/preach that all religion leads to one GOD. So inherently it is secular. The recent developments from RSS/VHP or any other prominent outfits are just reciprocating to what other religions are doing in terms of conversion all over the world. Minority of population indulging in anti-secular activities does not mean that the identity is in question. The majority of population irrespective of any religion are secular.

We are secular, accepts all religion and we should strive to achieve that 100%. Our identity has been secularism since many 1000 years ago.

How can hinduism preach that all religions lead to one God, when there was no other religion during its formation. Any verse from vedas or puranas which says islam or christianity are also true religion?
Hinduism is secular? How can a religion be secular. Oxymoron. Secular means separation of state and religion, that's it.

If India is secular, why does it allow muslims the right to have more than one wife, but it prevents hindus from it, when polygamy and polyandry is both allowed in hinduism? Why this apartheid?

Muslims got a homeland during partition. Those who wanted to live under Islamic laws migrated. Those who stayed behind are now also clamouring for islamic laws? How fair is that?

That is why there should be another partition, a final partition. Muslim country and a Hindu country. Muslims won't have to witness riots and oppression from Hindus, and Hindus won't have to be forced to let go of their religious practices because it offends the minorities.

 

[adit_sh]

How can hinduism preach that all religions lead to one God, when there was no other religion during its formation. Any verse from vedas or puranas which says islam or christianity are also true religion?
Hinduism is secular? How can a religion be secular. Oxymoron. Secular means separation of state and religion, that's it.

If India is secular, why does it allow muslims the right to have more than one wife, but it prevents hindus from it, when polygamy and polyandry is both allowed in hinduism? Why this apartheid?

Muslims got a homeland during partition. Those who wanted to live under Islamic laws migrated. Those who stayed behind are now also clamouring for islamic laws? How fair is that?

That is why there should be another partition, a final partition. Muslim country and a Hindu country. Muslims won't have to witness riots and oppression from Hindus, and Hindus won't have to be forced to let go of their religious practices because it offends the minorities.

You are analyzing in a different direction.
Hinduism is not a Religion but just a way of life. When I say it accepts all the religion that means it accepts any forms and method of prayers that one wish to perform ( Includes all the forms). So the secularism is in the thinking of the people who lives in the east side of Indus( InduuSS or Hindu derived from Indus). You will not get this point because you did not brought up with secular values.

Are you a muslim? which I seriously doubt because you would not have asked this question in the way you asked - why does it allow muslims the right to have more than one wife I would leave it to my fellow PPers who are possess good knowledge of Quran to answer this. This was relevant at some point of time and it was allowed as per the holy book. I dont think it is relevant any more even in the muslim world today( but this is my personal opinion)

but it prevents hindus from it, when polygamy and polyandry is both allowed in hinduism? Why this apartheid? - I can answer this. Every civlization evolves and in an era where this was needed, this was followed but traditions and human intelligence/thinking and technologies evolves with time. This leads to practical problems more than anything else so people living in the east side of Indus thought that way and made it a law. Muslims did not agree to it so they followed as it is. See this suggest that it accepts all the acceptance.

Muslims got a homeland during partition. Those who wanted to live under Islamic laws migrated. Those who stayed behind are now also clamouring for islamic laws? How fair is that?

>>>>.This is entirely the choice of the people who migrated. If people think thats the way to go then thats the way.

Dude - Riots are bad, Not giving land on the basis of religion is pathetic, driving people out of homeland like Kashmiri Pandits are ridiculous etc......But these are very small compared to the %age of the population who lives in peace. Not saying everything is very rosy but we will strive to achieve our core values of tolerance and acceptance. Most people are, and thats our identity.
We dont want a Hindu country - sorry !

 

[adit_sh]

Just wanted to add that many has taken advantage of our core values of tolerance and acceptance in the past and that has resulted in fundamentalism and some of our core values are eroded. We need to find a optimal solution of driving the aggressors away and at the same time live peacefully with fellow countrymen.

 

[CricketCartoons]

You are analyzing in a different direction.
Hinduism is not a Religion but just a way of life. When I say it accepts all the religion that means it accepts any forms and method of prayers that one wish to perform ( Includes all the forms). So the secularism is in the thinking of the people who lives in the east side of Indus( InduuSS or Hindu derived from Indus). You will not get this point because you did not brought up with secular values.

Are you a muslim? which I seriously doubt because you would not have asked this question in the way you asked - why does it allow muslims the right to have more than one wife I would leave it to my fellow PPers who are possess good knowledge of Quran to answer this. This was relevant at some point of time and it was allowed as per the holy book. I dont think it is relevant any more even in the muslim world today( but this is my personal opinion)

but it prevents hindus from it, when polygamy and polyandry is both allowed in hinduism? Why this apartheid? - I can answer this. Every civlization evolves and in an era where this was needed, this was followed but traditions and human intelligence/thinking and technologies evolves with time. This leads to practical problems more than anything else so people living in the east side of Indus thought that way and made it a law. Muslims did not agree to it so they followed as it is. See this suggest that it accepts all the acceptance.

Muslims got a homeland during partition. Those who wanted to live under Islamic laws migrated. Those who stayed behind are now also clamouring for islamic laws? How fair is that?

>>>>.This is entirely the choice of the people who migrated. If people think thats the way to go then thats the way.

Dude - Riots are bad, Not giving land on the basis of religion is pathetic, driving people out of homeland like Kashmiri Pandits are ridiculous etc......But these are very small compared to the %age of the population who lives in peace. Not saying everything is very rosy but we will strive to achieve our core values of tolerance and acceptance. Most people are, and thats our identity.
We dont want a Hindu country - sorry !

Hindus and Muslims are not compatible. They can live peacefully as neighbours in countries where there is strong law enforcement, not in third world countries.

Hindus are whining that they are victims, and muslims are whining that they are victims.
Love jihad, cow slaughter, muslim appeasement. Hindutva, mosque demolition, riots. and all that crap.

Which takes us away from more important issues like poverty, hunger, education farmer suicides, crony capitalism and corruption.

Better to have a final partition for hindus and muslims so that both can finally work on real issues instead of hogging limelight with this sickular debate.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Just wanted to add that many has taken advantage of our core values of tolerance and acceptance in the past and that has resulted in fundamentalism and some of our core values are eroded. We need to find a optimal solution of driving the aggressors away and at the same time live peacefully with fellow countrymen.

core values of tolerance and acceptance. lol. what about casteism. The single most reason for most problems in india. anyway you can wax eloquent about your religion or way of life, none of my concern. but india is neither a hindu nation nor a secular country. It has to pick one and can't remain equivocal. and i am more towards it being a hindu nation, because this planet does not have a country devoted to hindus (sikhs need one too, but that is a separate topic).

 

[adit_sh]

core values of tolerance and acceptance. lol. what about casteism. The single most reason for most problems in india. anyway you can wax eloquent about your religion or way of life, none of my concern. but india is neither a hindu nation nor a secular country. It has to pick one and can't remain equivocal. and i am more towards it being a hindu nation, because this planet does not have a country devoted to hindus (sikhs need one too, but that is a separate topic).

Casteism is completely misinterpreted by many Indians unfortunately and we are confident that we will completely come over it and it has been significantly reduced over the period of time. Every civilization has problems , the important thing is to recognize it and solve which we are doing. We have remained equivocal for generations and will remain ONE. Just because you think it is not secular doesnt mean it is not. We know how to live together and the instances in which we live peacefully are far far ahead of the instances where we did not.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Casteism is completely misinterpreted by many Indians unfortunately and we are confident that we will completely come over it and it has been significantly reduced over the period of time. Every civilization has problems , the important thing is to recognize it and solve which we are doing. We have remained equivocal for generations and will remain ONE. Just because you think it is not secular doesnt mean it is not. We know how to live together and the instances in which we live peacefully are far far ahead of the instances where we did not.

Another emotional rant not based on reality.
You think India is secular? Then why are laws being made to ban cow slaughter. And why muslims are allowed polygamy, but hindus are not extended the same rights?

My friend, India is pseudo secular. And the only solution for this is another partition. Hindus and Muslims just cannot live together without one or the other having to compromise.

 

[filthyfulltoss]

I am not talking about what you want. You are free to be go to any nation you like. But India should have been a Hindu nation. There are Catholic and Islamic nations, but no Hindu nation in the world. India should stop being apologetic about its dharmic past, and do everything to protect and promote the Hindu religion. The Indian muslims should be given another piece of land and there should be a permanent settlement. So that India can get rid of its hindu muslim problem and both Muslims and Hindus can live in separate countries. Muslims would be happy that they will become a majority instead of minority and no longer oppressed by hindus, and hindus can be happy that they can have a complete beef ban, end to love jihad and vote bank politics. Win win for both.

wow 10/10 logic this is such an amazing point oh my god please write a book!

"There is no Hindu nation in the world so india should be hindu nation"

I got goosebumps reading such intellectualism.

Wow.

 

[CricketCartoons]

wow 10/10 logic this is such an amazing point oh my god please write a book!

"There is no Hindu nation in the world so india should be hindu nation"

I got goosebumps reading such intellectualism.

Wow.

India is not just any country. It is the only country which Hindus can call their home, and where their religious rights can be protected.
It is not just about the religion, it is about the culture. Teaching of Sanskrit raises the hackles of sickularists because apparently it is a "hindu" language. And I am not just advocating India to be a Hindu state, I am advocating a partition so that remaining muslims get another homeland where they can live in peace, away from Hindu tyranny. And Hindus can live in peace without muslim and sickular tyranny.

 

[kaayal]

India is not just any country. It is the only country which Hindus can call their home, and where their religious rights can be protected.
It is not just about the religion, it is about the culture. Teaching of Sanskrit raises the hackles of sickularists because apparently it is a "hindu" language. And I am not just advocating India to be a Hindu state, I am advocating a partition so that remaining muslims get another homeland where they can live in peace, away from Hindu tyranny. And Hindus can live in peace without muslim and sickular tyranny.

And if the muslims don't want to leave their homeland what will you do?

 

[niishaa]

India is not just any country. It is the only country which Hindus can call their home, and where their religious rights can be protected.
It is not just about the religion, it is about the culture. Teaching of Sanskrit raises the hackles of sickularists because apparently it is a "hindu" language. And I am not just advocating India to be a Hindu state, I am advocating a partition so that remaining muslims get another homeland where they can live in peace, away from Hindu tyranny. And Hindus can live in peace without muslim and sickular tyranny.

Where do you suggest another homeland to be for muslims then? can u explain clearly what the plan is?

 

[CricketCartoons]

And if the muslims don't want to leave their homeland what will you do?

Then they will have to live according to the laws of the new country. If they chose to stay in Hindu India, they will have to follow the laws. Or else they can move to Muslim India. Same goes for Hindus.

 

[wasim-fan]

I thought jury was already in on this in 1971 and countless such instances in history.

Nationhood is overrated in any case

 

[adit_sh]

Where do you suggest another homeland to be for muslims then? can u explain clearly what the plan is?

another break India campaign with so called on religions terms. Many are on prowl with this agenda...

 

[adit_sh]

Another emotional rant not based on reality.
You think India is secular? Then why are laws being made to ban cow slaughter. And why muslims are allowed polygamy, but hindus are not extended the same rights?

My friend, India is pseudo secular. And the only solution for this is another partition. Hindus and Muslims just cannot live together without one or the other having to compromise.

Yes there are difference of opinions which will be sorted out.

If you can disapprove this statement then I agree with whatever you say and this is just based on numbers not emotional rant.

"The instances in which we live peacefully are far far ahead of the instances where we did not"

 

[Buffet]

Hindus and Muslims are not compatible. They can live peacefully as neighbours in countries where there is strong law enforcement, not in third world countries.

Can Hindus live with other Hindus in third world countries without killing each other?

Can Muslims live with each other in third world countries without killing each other?

If answer to both questions can't be emphatic yes then putting all Hindus and all Muslims in two buckets won't solve anything. Both groups won't suddenly start flourish after getting into two separate buckets.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Where do you suggest another homeland to be for muslims then? can u explain clearly what the plan is?

I am just giving an idea, like Iqbal. The implementation and the nitty gritties can be sorted out by others well equipped to do so.

Yes there are difference of opinions which will be sorted out.

If you can disapprove this statement then I agree with whatever you say and this is just based on numbers not emotional rant.

"The instances in which we live peacefully are far far ahead of the instances where we did not"

Will you travel in airplanes if I tell you it has 90% success of no fatal crash? So the daily instances of "peace" means nothing when one day everything ends in riots or bomb blast.

Can Hindus live with other Hindus in third world countries without killing each other?

Can Muslims live with each other in third world countries without killing each other?

If answer to both questions can't be emphatic yes then putting all Hindus and all Muslims in two buckets won't solve anything. Both groups won't suddenly start flourish after getting into two separate buckets.

Of course, it will not stop people from killing people. Muslims still kill muslims in Pakistan and Hindus still kill Hindus in India. But at least it will stop the religious persecution of muslims by hindus, and hindus by muslims. And then we can start giving attention to more pertinent issue that this debate on "secularism". Among the english media, the thought leaders, and the politicians, the only issue is whether the "secular fabric of the nation" is safe or not. Which is such a red herring. To HELL with this hindu muslim conflict. The pseudo seculars and the hindutva parties both benefit from this false debate, as it gives them justification for their existence and keeps attention away from their performance.

 

[yeh cheez]

Pakistan is not a fully Islamic country either, it may be ~40% there.

The Islamic parties are not winning any votes so they cannot come into power and start pushing towards total Sharia.

The Mullahs are getting restless, every failure is blamed on the country not being totally Islamic.

Then there are groups like the Taliban that want to bring total Sharia at gunpoint. [emoji379]

The tug of war continues.

 

[Slog]

Pakistan is not a fully Islamic country either, it may be ~40% there.

The Islamic parties are not winning any votes so they cannot come into power and start pushing towards total Sharia.

The Mullahs are getting restless, every failure is blamed on the country not being totally Islamic.

Then there are groups like the Taliban that want to bring total Sharia at gunpoint. [emoji379]

The tug of war continues.

Its ironic how religious parties, some of whom run on the mandate of adopting full Shariah if they come in power, have never managed to receive more than 10% of the vote (apart from one election less than 5% in all others) but yet have so much influence and power when it comes to the laws of the land and setting the general discourse and debate in the country.

I wrote a short research paper on it in college to try to explain why and did get some answers but was still left unsatisfied personally eventhough the committee of professors were happy enough. Well they didn't know the on-the-ground activities and influence of these parties.

Anyways, the Pakistani mullah is an insatiable breed. Never satisfied. Give him an inch, he wants a mile and once he gets that he wants even more but with no responsibility attached. Quite unique that a group which historically (now changing I guess) has had little support among the masses has been able to get his way and strong arm populist and loved leaders like Liauquat Ali Khan and Bhutto

 

[Buffet]

Of course, it will not stop people from killing people. Muslims still kill muslims in Pakistan and Hindus still kill Hindus in India. But at least it will stop the religious persecution of muslims by hindus, and hindus by muslims. And then we can start giving attention to more pertinent issue that this debate on "secularism". Among the english media, the thought leaders, and the politicians, the only issue is whether the "secular fabric of the nation" is safe or not. Which is such a red herring. To HELL with this hindu muslim conflict. The pseudo seculars and the hindutva parties both benefit from this false debate, as it gives them justification for their existence and keeps attention away from their performance.

I think you will be better off with large minority rather than tiny or no minority. Diversity is not a bad thing. If you start going this path then you can even divide subgroups within Hindus and Muslims. After you get done with Hindus & Muslim division then division within each group will take the limelight and pretty soon a demand for new country may come based on sub segments within Hindus and Muslims not getting along well.

But I agree that focus should be simply development and lifting folks out of poverty. This religion talk is meaningless. Each country has responsibility to give best possible life to folks living within the country.

 

[mithun_minhas]

I say Hindu culture is the primary reason why India is still united. If ever Some state in India becomes Muslim majority or Christian majority, there will be a big separatist movement.

Its the Hindu religion that is the only commonality between a Punjabi/Rajasthani Hindu and a Telugu/Tamil Hindu. If Hindu culture weakens, India will breakup.

 

[justarslan]

Another emotional rant not based on reality.
You think India is secular? Then why are laws being made to ban cow slaughter. And why muslims are allowed polygamy, but hindus are not extended the same rights?

My friend, India is pseudo secular. And the only solution for this is another partition. Hindus and Muslims just cannot live together without one or the other having to compromise.

There is already de facto second partition with Hindus and Muslims living in separate neighborhoods. Now only need it to become de jure partition.

 

[CricketCartoons]

There is already de facto second partition with Hindus and Muslims living in separate neighborhoods. Now only need it to become de jure partition.

I am extending this separate neighbourhood to separate countries. Good fences make good neighbours. Otherwise hindus and muslims will never be at peace.

 

[Slog]

I say Hindu culture is the primary reason why India is still united. If ever Some state in India becomes Muslim majority or Christian majority, there will be a big separatist movement.

Its the Hindu religion that is the only commonality between a Punjabi/Rajasthani Hindu and a Telugu/Tamil Hindu. If Hindu culture weakens, India will breakup.

I think that was a possibility till 15 or so years ago but now the Indian identity is strong enough on its own

kudos to successive indian governments in strengthening this sense of identity to the point where I feel only some expat Sikhs seriously talk abt an independent homeland

also weren't you the one who mentioned it a few weeks ago how some north eastern indian states were majority Christian now

 

[Ambi]

Those who know india's history of dealing separatist movements won't even think about forming a new country. Government will play all the dirty tricks to deal separatists.

 

[Indiafan]

I am not talking about what you want. You are free to be go to any nation you like. But India should have been a Hindu nation. There are Catholic and Islamic nations, but no Hindu nation in the world. India should stop being apologetic about its dharmic past, and do everything to protect and promote the Hindu religion. The Indian muslims should be given another piece of land and there should be a permanent settlement. So that India can get rid of its hindu muslim problem and both Muslims and Hindus can live in separate countries. Muslims would be happy that they will become a majority instead of minority and no longer oppressed by hindus, and hindus can be happy that they can have a complete beef ban, end to love jihad and vote bank politics. Win win for both.

Ironically, I cannot voice what I want despite being an Indian. Or even if my opinion matches majority of Indians. However you, who has denounced India and do not want to identify as an Indian citizen have all rights to decide which path India should take.

Which nations based solely on religion has and are still progressing? And how long will they continue to progress? Since you are so keen to divide, why stop at religion? Divide on the basis of language. Of caste, Of gender. Of culture

In today's world where do you see true growth and progress? Where people live isolated in silos? Banning everything they are not comfortable with? Making the entire world one uniform entity?

Or do you see true progress where different people bring different things to the table? Where a gay person and a black person and a Muslim person all work towards making humanity progress and better itself each day? We are at cross roads right now. We have two options. Keep on dividing and dividing and dividing, looking at our differences, a hindu is different from a Muslim, an urdu speaker is different from a Pashtoon, whites are different from blacks and so on. Or we finally decide to progress as one, one humanity, realize that we are different because we grew up in different culture, different geographies and the only way to progress is to TOLERATE our difference. The path to progress is NO further divisions but uniting all humanity despite our differences

Dividing on the basis of difference leads to wars and destruction. Terrorism and wars happen because we think we are different and our way of thinking is the ONLY right way. When we realize we were born to be different, that our differences are not as a result of right or wrong but a direct consequence of where we were born and raised, then we will truly accept everyone and progress as one. Instead of destructing statues and cultures, we will invest time in betterment of human race.

And don't think that I can't see that you are trying to raise the same point by being sarcastic or saying the opposite of what you mean. Why should religion be so important when it is science which has increased the life span, science which has reduced mortality rate, science which has better human life in all regards, science which enables us to come to this forum and debate these points? Religion has helped no nation, science and technology has.

 

[Indiafan]

I say Hindu culture is the primary reason why India is still united. If ever Some state in India becomes Muslim majority or Christian majority, there will be a big separatist movement.

Its the Hindu religion that is the only commonality between a Punjabi/Rajasthani Hindu and a Telugu/Tamil Hindu. If Hindu culture weakens, India will breakup.

Not the hindu version of RSS/BJP for sure. The true hindu religion not only acnowkedhes the existence of other religion but believe sthey are other paths to God.

But of course the rest of your post is bull **** and has no proof. We have risen DESPITE religion not because of it. The day you stress any religion, even Hinduism,, is the day we follow the path of destruction which other countries who have adopted religion instead of secularism we have chosen

Religion is not the only thing which divides India, languages, caste, region all do. The day we think one religion, one language, one region, one caste is the answer, the day we break into a million pieces. The RSS/BJP version of Hinduism is no different than the other religion you target.

 

[Indiafan]

Humanity is amazing. Humanity has amazing potential. We can reach for anything and accomplish anything. Whether it is reaching for the stars and spreading through the galaxy or whether it is becoming immortal and eradicating poverty

What is stopping us? Superstition and hate. Your religion tells you to hate gays. But what if a gay person is the most brilliant scientist on the earth who is likely to find a cure for cancer? But we wont let him reach his potential because our culture tells us to hate gay. Women should be covered and should not mingle with guys. But what if a women scientist has the potential to make space travel possible? Will she have the time and energy to spend on research after making sure she is dressed appropriately and is not alone with makes?

Dogma, superstitions and difference has set back humanity's progress by decades. If we have to achieve our true potential, we have to look beyond our differences. Asia might have some technology US scientists can use to progress Hindus might need something a Muslim scientist has developed. We are different, there is no two ways about it. However, it is when we try to prove that our way is the right way just because we grew up in a certain family in a certain region, that things become murky. We all are the product of generations of culture and geography. There is not wrong or right, true or false. We all are in the same boat, groping for answers. For some of us, it comforts us to know that all the answers have been revealed. But there is no way that is true. There is an entire universe to explore. No religious text talks about the unification of all physical laws or what is at the end of the universe. Let's spend our time and energy is advancing humanity and making scientific progress. Because what history has shown us is that time always has the last laugh on those who believe they know the truth. Superstitious and rigid people fall behind and history laughs at them. From the people who thought that sun revolved around the earth to those who thought earth was 6000 years old. They are mocked by history. Time only knows progress and search for more scientific truths. we have been given brilliant brains, lets use them.

 

[mithun_minhas]

Humanity is amazing. Humanity has amazing potential. We can reach for anything and accomplish anything. Whether it is reaching for the stars and spreading through the galaxy or whether it is becoming immortal and eradicating poverty

What is stopping us? Superstition and hate. Your religion tells you to hate gays. But what if a gay person is the most brilliant scientist on the earth who is likely to find a cure for cancer? But we wont let him reach his potential because our culture tells us to hate gay. Women should be covered and should not mingle with guys. But what if a women scientist has the potential to make space travel possible? Will she have the time and energy to spend on research after making sure she is dressed appropriately and is not alone with makes?

Dogma, superstitions and difference has set back humanity's progress by decades. If we have to achieve our true potential, we have to look beyond our differences. Asia might have some technology US scientists can use to progress Hindus might need something a Muslim scientist has developed. We are different, there is no two ways about it. However, it is when we try to prove that our way is the right way just because we grew up in a certain family in a certain region, that things become murky. We all are the product of generations of culture and geography. There is not wrong or right, true or false. We all are in the same boat, groping for answers. For some of us, it comforts us to know that all the answers have been revealed. But there is no way that is true. There is an entire universe to explore. No religious text talks about the unification of all physical laws or what is at the end of the universe. Let's spend our time and energy is advancing humanity and making scientific progress. Because what history has shown us is that time always has the last laugh on those who believe they know the truth. Superstitious and rigid people fall behind and history laughs at them. From the people who thought that sun revolved around the earth to those who thought earth was 6000 years old. They are mocked by history. Time only knows progress and search for more scientific truths. we have been given brilliant brains, lets use them.

+1000000000000
You are a very good motivational speaker.

 

[moumotta]

As some one said earlier once you start separating identities and start highlighting differences rather than commonalities there is no end to it. 60 years ago it was Hindus and Muslims can not live together. Then it was Bengali and Punjabi muslims are different. Then Ahmadis aren't really Muslims and in time Shias and Sunnis should be at each others throats and prove each other wrong.

It is like a snow boulder. Once it starts rolling it gathers its own momentum and becomes unstoppable.

 

[Swanny]

Humanity is amazing. Humanity has amazing potential. We can reach for anything and accomplish anything. Whether it is reaching for the stars and spreading through the galaxy or whether it is becoming immortal and eradicating poverty

What is stopping us? Superstition and hate. Your religion tells you to hate gays. But what if a gay person is the most brilliant scientist on the earth who is likely to find a cure for cancer? But we wont let him reach his potential because our culture tells us to hate gay. Women should be covered and should not mingle with guys. But what if a women scientist has the potential to make space travel possible? Will she have the time and energy to spend on research after making sure she is dressed appropriately and is not alone with makes?

Dogma, superstitions and difference has set back humanity's progress by decades. If we have to achieve our true potential, we have to look beyond our differences. Asia might have some technology US scientists can use to progress Hindus might need something a Muslim scientist has developed. We are different, there is no two ways about it. However, it is when we try to prove that our way is the right way just because we grew up in a certain family in a certain region, that things become murky. We all are the product of generations of culture and geography. There is not wrong or right, true or false. We all are in the same boat, groping for answers. For some of us, it comforts us to know that all the answers have been revealed. But there is no way that is true. There is an entire universe to explore. No religious text talks about the unification of all physical laws or what is at the end of the universe. Let's spend our time and energy is advancing humanity and making scientific progress. Because what history has shown us is that time always has the last laugh on those who believe they know the truth. Superstitious and rigid people fall behind and history laughs at them. From the people who thought that sun revolved around the earth to those who thought earth was 6000 years old. They are mocked by history. Time only knows progress and search for more scientific truths. we have been given brilliant brains, lets use them.

This !!

Also imo humans are the true gods & this planet is our heaven.

Humans are the only speices that can truly make a huge difference to the world.

Each of us has the potential to do such amazing things which no other species can imagine. Be it soaring to great heights or diving to greatest depth. Travelling at great speeds, giving rise to world changing events at the flick of a switch.

Every life form is affected by the decisions we take everyday. We can annhilate an entire species or give rise to new ones.

We are the caretakers. We have resonsibility towards every other species.


Our biggest sin is that we are so blinded by our greed & a desire of scoring extra credits for a supposed afterlife we have totally ignored what we are doing to our beloved heaven, the only place we can call our home.

We are laying waste to our only home in this universe.

Its about time we take control & start fulfilling our duty towards our home planet.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Ironically, I cannot voice what I want despite being an Indian. Or even if my opinion matches majority of Indians. However you, who has denounced India and do not want to identify as an Indian citizen have all rights to decide which path India should take.

Which nations based solely on religion has and are still progressing? And how long will they continue to progress? Since you are so keen to divide, why stop at religion? Divide on the basis of language. Of caste, Of gender. Of culture

In today's world where do you see true growth and progress? Where people live isolated in silos? Banning everything they are not comfortable with? Making the entire world one uniform entity?

Or do you see true progress where different people bring different things to the table? Where a gay person and a black person and a Muslim person all work towards making humanity progress and better itself each day? We are at cross roads right now. We have two options. Keep on dividing and dividing and dividing, looking at our differences, a hindu is different from a Muslim, an urdu speaker is different from a Pashtoon, whites are different from blacks and so on. Or we finally decide to progress as one, one humanity, realize that we are different because we grew up in different culture, different geographies and the only way to progress is to TOLERATE our difference. The path to progress is NO further divisions but uniting all humanity despite our differences

Dividing on the basis of difference leads to wars and destruction. Terrorism and wars happen because we think we are different and our way of thinking is the ONLY right way. When we realize we were born to be different, that our differences are not as a result of right or wrong but a direct consequence of where we were born and raised, then we will truly accept everyone and progress as one. Instead of destructing statues and cultures, we will invest time in betterment of human race.

And don't think that I can't see that you are trying to raise the same point by being sarcastic or saying the opposite of what you mean. Why should religion be so important when it is science which has increased the life span, science which has reduced mortality rate, science which has better human life in all regards, science which enables us to come to this forum and debate these points? Religion has helped no nation, science and technology has.

Indiafan bhai, you are like that uncleji who would insist that unhappy couple live under the same roof and not go for a divorce, just because in your ideal world everyone must live happily together.

I agree that people should not fight, and live with mutual respect and all that jazz. I also agree that religion inhibits progress and the sooner religion becomes irrelevant the better for the world. But I also know that this is not going to happen. Muslims and Hindus just cannot live in peace. Either they need a danda, or a good fence for coexistence. Their values are not just different, but often opposite to each other. Let them part ways and live according to their religious laws. Otherwise one or the other will always have to compromise to satisfy the other. This creates ill will and resent. The only solution to this conflict is a final partition.

 

[Swanny]

Indiafan bhai, you are like that uncleji who would insist that unhappy couple live under the same roof and not go for a divorce, just because in your ideal world everyone must live happily together.

I agree that people should not fight, and live with mutual respect and all that jazz. I also agree that religion inhibits progress and the sooner religion becomes irrelevant the better for the world. But I also know that this is not going to happen. Muslims and Hindus just cannot live in peace. Either they need a danda, or a good fence for coexistence. Their values are not just different, but often opposite to each other. Let them part ways and live according to their religious laws. Otherwise one or the other will always have to compromise to satisfy the other. This creates ill will and resent. The only solution to this conflict is a final partition.

What makes you think brahmins, kshatriyas, dalits, etc can live together ? Are there any instanances from history that they were living happily together. Werent they separated by fences too ?

Look at conditions in the Middle East, its the same religion but still people continue to fight for their brand of religion ( among other reasons ).

 

[CricketCartoons]

What makes you think brahmins, kshatriyas, dalits, etc can live together ? Are there any instanances from history that they were living happily together. Werent they separated by fences too ?

Look at conditions in the Middle East, its the same religion but still people continue to fight for their brand of religion ( among other reasons ).

So you want hindus and muslims to live together so that hindus can be united, otherwise they will fall apart? You want hindu unity using the muslim bogeyman?

 

[Swanny]

So you want hindus and muslims to live together so that hindus can be united, otherwise they will fall apart? You want hindu unity using the muslim bogeyman?

What's your main concern hindus not getting their own country or minoritiies / majority being abused becoz of India being a pseudosecular / sickular country ?

 

[CricketCartoons]

What's your main concern hindus not getting their own country or minoritiies / majority being abused becoz of India being a pseudosecular / sickular country ?

My concern is that the happiness of indian muslims and hindus is a zero sum game. Hindus had to live for 60 odd years under anti hindu congress, and muslims had to live under anti muslim bjp. And it has become a battle of hindus and muslims. The issues are not development, but how to keep the anti muslims or the anti hindus out of power. The only national debate revolves around the "secular fabric of the nation". These idiots are hogging too much limelight and eating footage. I am frankly sick of this hindu muslim thing. Let there be another partition and put an end to this sickular joke.

 

[Swanny]

@ CC if your major concern is there not being a hindu country then i guess you are the first person i have heard this from. Even most of the hindus dont care about having a separate hindu country.

If you are saddened at the treatment / victim mentality of minority / majority d/t India being a pseudosecular / sickular country then i'm afraid there will always be minorities / majorities even if India becomes a secular, hindu or islamic country.

I guess unfortunately India will continue to be a psedosecular / sickular country for the forseeable future.

 

[CricketCartoons]

@ CC if your major concern is there not being a hindu country then i guess you are the first person i have heard this from. Even most of the hindus dont care about having a separate hindu country.

If you are saddened at the treatment / victim mentality of minority / majority d/t India being a pseudosecular / sickular country then i'm afraid there will always be minorities / majorities even if India becomes a secular, hindu or islamic country.

I guess unfortunately India will continue to be a psedosecular / sickular country for the forseeable future.

I dont know about the indians you know, but at least on this forum, the majority of them are from privileged backgrounds, living in their protected gated communities, think they know a lot about india, but know jack about it. I doubt they would have spent a day in a village. All they know is bollywood, ipl, and sickularism/communalism. I have had enough of them and have now declared a war against these idiots.

 

[mallu]

My concern is that the happiness of indian muslims and hindus is a zero sum game. Hindus had to live for 60 odd years under anti hindu congress, and muslims had to live under anti muslim bjp. And it has become a battle of hindus and muslims. The issues are not development, but how to keep the anti muslims or the anti hindus out of power. The only national debate revolves around the "secular fabric of the nation". These idiots are hogging too much limelight and eating footage. I am frankly sick of this hindu muslim thing. Let there be another partition and put an end to this sickular joke.

but...

What about Christians? New country for them?

What about the Dalits? Don't think they will be happy, fearing oppression from savarnas. Wouldn't the reservations cause issues?

 

[desi_launda]

I have heard horror stories about Mumbra and Mallupuram,how is the situation there?

 

[Swanny]

I dont know about the indians you know, but at least on this forum, the majority of them are from privileged backgrounds, living in their protected gated communities, think they know a lot about india, but know jack about it. I doubt they would have spent a day in a village. All they know is bollywood, ipl, and sickularism/communalism. I have had enough of them and have now declared a war against these idiots.

You have declared a war on us by posting on PP ? How will it be beneficial to your partition movement ?

Shouldnt you be starting a petition or doing a dharna outside of PM's residence ?

 

[BeautifulGame]

My concern is that the happiness of indian muslims and hindus is a zero sum game. Hindus had to live for 60 odd years under anti hindu congress, and muslims had to live under anti muslim bjp. And it has become a battle of hindus and muslims. The issues are not development, but how to keep the anti muslims or the anti hindus out of power. The only national debate revolves around the "secular fabric of the nation". These idiots are hogging too much limelight and eating footage. I am frankly sick of this hindu muslim thing. Let there be another partition and put an end to this sickular joke.

How did u determine Congress is a anti- Hindu government ?.If that is the case how did majority of Hindus vote for Congress in those 60 years .
And no Loksabha election has mainly been fought on anti Hindu or Anti Muslim agenda .
More politics is fought in India based on caste appeasement .They hinder development more than any religion based Party.
So u advocate separate country for every caste and sub caste ?
I identify more with a Tamil Muslim than any Hindu from Bihar or Punjab etc.So why would we even agree for a sole country for Hindus ?
The argument that we need a separate state for Hindus is absorb we consider most Indians identify themselves more on caste and Language than religion

 

[desi_launda]

How did u determine Congress is a anti- Hindu government ?.If that is the case how did majority of Hindus vote for Congress in those 60 years .
And no Loksabha election has mainly been fought on anti Hindu or Anti Muslim agenda .
More politics is fought in India based on caste appeasement .They hinder development more than any religion based Party.
So u advocate separate country for every caste and sub caste ?
I identify more with a Tamil Muslim than any Hindu from Bihar or Punjab etc.So why would we even agree for a sole country for Hindus ?
The argument that we need a separate state for Hindus is absorb we consider most Indians identify themselves more on caste and Language than religion

It is because Hindus care for others but others do not care for them.

 

[CricketCartoons]

How did u determine Congress is a anti- Hindu government ?.If that is the case how did majority of Hindus vote for Congress in those 60 years .
And no Loksabha election has mainly been fought on anti Hindu or Anti Muslim agenda .
More politics is fought in India based on caste appeasement .They hinder development more than any religion based Party.
So u advocate separate country for every caste and sub caste ?
I identify more with a Tamil Muslim than any Hindu from Bihar or Punjab etc.So why would we even agree for a sole country for Hindus ?
The argument that we need a separate state for Hindus is absorb we consider most Indians identify themselves more on caste and Language than religion

Hindus voted for Congress all these years because the did not know the truth..even now most dont know what Congress stands for. Congress, after the electoral debacle, had an internal survey asking how to improve its image and look pro hindu. Now rahul baba is visiting kedarnath to appeal to the hindus.

No loksabha is faught on hindu muslim agenda? That is why we see Ram temple become relevant in every election, and bukhari asking muslims to vote for congress. Abdullah saying that those who vote for BJP should go drown in an ocean.

What caste appeasement? Dalits are not being done any favours. They could have easily got what they wanted, but it was Gandhi who went on hunger strike and forced Ambedkar to accept the Poona Pact (which he said was his biggest mistake). Even today Sickulars are only concerned about muslims and not dalits. Muslim parties demanding reservations for muslims? What a joke. So a syed and a khan will get reservation because they are muslims? The only muslims who deserve reservation as the low castes like pasmandas not these scumbag owaisis.

If you identify more with tamil muslims then you wont have a problem living in a muslim india, where you will get tamil muslims, mallu muslims and others as bonus.

 

[Swanny]

You have declared a war on us by posting on PP ? How will it be beneficial to your partition movement ?

Shouldnt you be starting a petition or doing a dharna outside of PM's residence ?

Hindus voted for Congress all these years because the did not know the truth..even now most dont know what Congress stands for. Congress, after the electoral debacle, had an internal survey asking how to improve its image and look pro hindu. Now rahul baba is visiting kedarnath to appeal to the hindus.

No loksabha is faught on hindu muslim agenda? That is why we see Ram temple become relevant in every election, and bukhari asking muslims to vote for congress. Abdullah saying that those who vote for BJP should go drown in an ocean.

What caste appeasement? Dalits are not being done any favours. They could have easily got what they wanted, but it was Gandhi who went on hunger strike and forced Ambedkar to accept the Poona Pact (which he said was his biggest mistake). Even today Sickulars are only concerned about muslims and not dalits. Muslim parties demanding reservations for muslims? What a joke. So a syed and a khan will get reservation because they are muslims? The only muslims who deserve reservation as the low castes like pasmandas not these scumbag owaisis.

If you identify more with tamil muslims then you wont have a problem living in a muslim india, where you will get tamil muslims, mallu muslims and others as bonus.

You convinenitly overlooked my above post. Pls care to answer.

 

[CricketCartoons]

You convinenitly overlooked my above post. Pls care to answer.

overlooked that post because of its stupidity. If I declare a war, then I will choose the battlefield. You dont get to decide where I should take the battle.

 

[BeautifulGame]

Hindus voted for Congress all these years because the did not know the truth..even now most dont know what Congress stands for. Congress, after the electoral debacle, had an internal survey asking how to improve its image and look pro hindu. Now rahul baba is visiting kedarnath to appeal to the hindus.

No loksabha is faught on hindu muslim agenda? That is why we see Ram temple become relevant in every election, and bukhari asking muslims to vote for congress. Abdullah saying that those who vote for BJP should go drown in an ocean.

What caste appeasement? Dalits are not being done any favours. They could have easily got what they wanted, but it was Gandhi who went on hunger strike and forced Ambedkar to accept the Poona Pact (which he said was his biggest mistake). Even today Sickulars are only concerned about muslims and not dalits. Muslim parties demanding reservations for muslims? What a joke. So a syed and a khan will get reservation because they are muslims? The only muslims who deserve reservation as the low castes like pasmandas not these scumbag owaisis.

If you identify more with tamil muslims then you wont have a problem living in a muslim india, where you will get tamil muslims, mallu muslims and others as bonus.

No they voted for congress then becoz they were the better choice then.

And how many Lok sabha elections BJP won using Ram temple .None
Only by projecting Modi as development leader and Gujarat Model BJP could win

No appeasement of caste based political parties .Not reservation

No.There is no connection BTW a Tamil Gounder or Malayalai Nayar with a Gujarathi Muslim .So that's pointless

 

[Swanny]

overlooked that post because of its stupidity. If I declare a war, then I will choose the battlefield. You dont get to decide where I should take the battle.

You're battlefield is a cricket website operated by british pakistanis ? Good luck on achieving your objectives

 

[CricketCartoons]

No they voted for congress then becoz they were the better choice then.

And how many Lok sabha elections BJP won using Ram temple .None
Only by projecting Modi as development leader and Gujarat Model BJP could win

No appeasement of caste based political parties .Not reservation

No.There is no connection BTW a Tamil Gounder or Malayalai Nayar with a Gujarathi Muslim .So that's pointless

BJP started its rise after Shah Bano Case, which underlined the sickular policies of congress. Congress has done so much damage with its brand of sickularism that it cannot be undone. BJP has continued where Congress left and reaping the fruits of sickularism.

You really think Modi won because of development? He lacks basic knowledge of economics. Manmohan would not even hire him as an intern.

Caste appeasement? Seems you are yet another sickular (pro muslim, anti dalit)

What Tamil identity you are talking about? Till 1969 you were madrasis. Madras Presidency -> Madras Province -> Madras State -> Tamil Nadu. Right now only Hindus and Muslims are at loggerheads, since time immemorial. When madrasis also start rioting with each other and develop deep rooted mistrust for each other, we can discuss that. Right now it is pointless to talk about other identities when they dont even compare to the hindu muslim conflict. Hindus and Muslims are separate nations. The earlier everyone realizes, the better will it be for peace in india.

 

[CricketCartoons]

You're battlefield is a cricket website operated by british pakistanis ? Good luck on achieving your objectives

My battlefield is online fora. This forum is just one of them.

 

[Dr_Bassim]

The solution for ethnic and religious divide...

Break up the country on the basis of religion..

But if their is further strife, break up the country again.

Let's divide provinces into countries because then people who are closer together will likely to stop fighting...

Yes, makes perfect sense...

Except Cain slew his own brother Abel, just because he was jealous and that was a blood relation, even stronger than just similar religion and ethnicity.

Which is why dividing countries just because a small minority thinks it's okay is the most stupidest argument in the whole world...

As if that will stop the killing.

People will find other ways to wage war.

Humans are beasts by nature.

That's a fact.

 

[CricketCartoons]

The solution for ethnic and religious divide...

Break up the country on the basis of religion..

But if their is further strife, break up the country again.

Let's divide provinces into countries because then people who are closer together will likely to stop fighting...

Yes, makes perfect sense...

Except Cain slew his own brother Abel, just because he was jealous and that was a blood relation, even stronger than just similar religion and ethnicity.

Which is why dividing countries just because a small minority thinks it's okay is the most stupidest argument in the whole world...

As if that will stop the killing.

People will find other ways to wage war.

Humans are beasts by nature.

That's a fact.

If people start rioting based on religion or ethnicity, then it makes perfect sense to divide the country. It will not stop humans from killing humans. But it will stop oppression of one religion/ethnicity over the other. That is why Pakistan was formed, and that is why Bangladesh was formed. That is why Israel was formed, and that is why Palestine is fighting for its right. If you dont understand that people want to live without being oppressed by other religionists/ethnics, then you are deluded.

 

[Dr_Bassim]

If people start rioting based on religion or ethnicity, then it makes perfect sense to divide the country. It will not stop humans from killing humans. But it will stop oppression of one religion/ethnicity over the other. That is why Pakistan was formed, and that is why Bangladesh was formed. That is why Israel was formed, and that is why Palestine is fighting for its right. If you dont understand that people want to live without being oppressed by other religionists/ethnics, then you are deluded.

Yeah, that's why Pakistan was formed, and still there are Sunni Shia riots in Pakistan.

Now what to do?

Break Pakistan into Sunni Republic of Pakistan and Shia Republic of Pakistan?

Wait they are also some Qadianis in Pakistan who are not recognized as Muslims and given minority treatment....

Qadiani rePublic of Pakistan..

You are making a lot of sense.

Keep going...

 

[CricketCartoons]

Yeah, that's why Pakistan was formed, and still there are Sunni Shia riots in Pakistan.

Now what to do?

Break Pakistan into Sunni Republic of Pakistan and Shia Republic of Pakistan?

Wait they are also some Qadianis in Pakistan who are not recognized as Muslims and given minority treatment....

Qadiani rePublic of Pakistan..

You are making a lot of sense.

Keep going...

Yes, why not. If Shias are persecuted by Sunnis, why not a separate country for them? I would say same for Ahmadis, but they just dont have the numbers.
You seem to value the land more than the lives of people. And I value lives more than the piece of land.

 

[Swanny]

My battlefield is online fora. This forum is just one of them.

I doubt the Indian govt cares much about people's views on any online forum. People can post anything under an alias these days. They will most probably dismiss it as a petty troll attempt.

Imo you should try better modes of grieviance addressal. I would suggest involving the media in your cause.

TC

 

[KB]

Some have suggested that the expression of difference itself is ultimately divisive. Yet, to the contrary, as some historians have argued it is the denial of difference that has been at root of some of the problems that have afflicted South Asia. The efforts to efface or to treat as secondary any allegiance other than that to the nation has caused unease amongst minorities.

Ayesha Jalal and Sugata Bose in their book on the history of South Asia point very clearly to this insistence by nationalists of singular allegiance to the nation and the idea of unitary and indivisible sovereignty. Regretting that India and Pakistan inherited 'colonial structures of state and ideologies of sovereignty' they argue instead that pre-colonial practices of 'flexible, nuanced, and overarching suzerainties', which had no 'notion of absolute sovereignty' or 'singular allegiance' would have led to a more peaceful South Asian region.

They argue forcefully that partition was at least partly the result of anti-colonial nationalists displaying 'increasing impatience with articulations of cultural difference and diversity'. They are surely correct to assert that 'Particularist identities…could not just be wished away but needed to be accommodated within an enlightened view of anti-colonial nationalism'.

Noted Indian historian, Gyanendra Pandey has argued that not only was there no accommodation of other loyalties in later Indian nationalism but the state became conflated with the nation and the history of India became a history of the state:

“What was missing from this [anti-colonial nationalist] reconstruction of the past was any sense of the common people as historical agents…There was no room here for an accommodation of local loyalties, for continued attachment to religion, or even appreciation of the vigorous struggles that had been waged against these; nor much allowance for the class-divided and regionally diverse perceptions of the ‘imagined community’…

By its denial of subjecthood to the people of India – the local communities, castes and classes – nationalism was forced into the kind of statist perspective that colonialism had favored and promoted for its own reasons. In nationalist historiography, as in the colonial construction of the Indian past, the history of India was reduced in substance to the history of the state.”

It may be pertinent to mention that linguistic reorganisation of Indian states in the 1950s. This was against Nehru’s wishes as giving credence to a 'primordial' identity was seen as potentially weakening the sense of allegiance to Indian nationalism. This was the same insecurity which made Congress wary of a weak centre.However many think that the linguistic reorganisation actually ended up strengthening the Indian Union. Provincial boundaries until then had been a reflection of imperial conquest or strategy. They were therefore highly artificial and did not reflect popular aspirations nor local identities. The reorganisation therefore in the 1950s, produced a better fit between the shape of Indian society in its particular locations and the state borders.

It is in this spirit that South Asia could learn much from the great poet Rabindranath Tagore, who wrote with great wisdom:

"When there is genuine difference, it is only by expressing and restraining the difference in its proper place that it is possible to fashion unity. Unity cannot be achieved by issuing legal fiats that everybody is one."

 

[Stewie]

Gimme a break.. We see such threads from time to time and I am amazed people do not get it straight. There is no denying the fact that it has worked because Pakistanis are happy. Indians are happy. If Pakistanis were unhappy due to partition and Indians were unhappy due to whatever, then we could say it did not work.


But it has. We are a different nation and some of the things we can freely do, we would not have been able to do if we were still Indians.

 

[Laal]

Two different issues.

Was the creation of Pakistan a good step? Yes.
Did the Two Nation Theory fail? Yes, it failed the minute most Muslims decided to stay back in India.

 

[babareazam1]

Gimme a break.. We see such threads from time to time and I am amazed people do not get it straight. There is no denying the fact that it has worked because Pakistanis are happy. Indians are happy. If Pakistanis were unhappy due to partition and Indians were unhappy due to whatever, then we could say it did not work.


But it has. We are a different nation and some of the things we can freely do, we would not have been able to do if we were still Indians.

THe problem with the two nation theory is an admission that we cannot live with someone or tolerate someone of a different religion or race. Having that mindset , we first got rid of people of other religions. Then we turned against ourselves leading to the formation of Bangladesh. Now there are SUnni Shia fights and Balochi Sindhi Punjabi fights. We have proven that it is possible to live with people of other cultures and faiths when we happily go to Europe and Canada and plenty of Indian muslims live with Hindus.

 

[CricketCartoons]

THe problem with the two nation theory is an admission that we cannot live with someone or tolerate someone of a different religion or race. Having that mindset , we first got rid of people of other religions. Then we turned against ourselves leading to the formation of Bangladesh. Now there are SUnni Shia fights and Balochi Sindhi Punjabi fights. We have proven that it is possible to live with people of other cultures and faiths when we happily go to Europe and Canada and plenty of Indian muslims live with Hindus.

That is not the failure of two nation theory. It was the failure of pakistan that instead of being a muslim country it became more of a sunni punjabi country. Hindus and Muslims live peacefully in europe and canada because of the danda, not because of any love for each other. Even here, just let this forum be unmoderated and you will see how much love will flow between hindus and muslims.

 

[BeautifulGame]

BJP started its rise after Shah Bano Case, which underlined the sickular policies of congress. Congress has done so much damage with its brand of sickularism that it cannot be undone. BJP has continued where Congress left and reaping the fruits of sickularism.

You really think Modi won because of development? He lacks basic knowledge of economics. Manmohan would not even hire him as an intern.

Caste appeasement? Seems you are yet another sickular (pro muslim, anti dalit)

What Tamil identity you are talking about? Till 1969 you were madrasis. Madras Presidency -> Madras Province -> Madras State -> Tamil Nadu. Right now only Hindus and Muslims are at loggerheads, since time immemorial. When madrasis also start rioting with each other and develop deep rooted mistrust for each other, we can discuss that. Right now it is pointless to talk about other identities when they dont even compare to the hindu muslim conflict. Hindus and Muslims are separate nations. The earlier everyone realizes, the better will it be for peace in india.

BJP rise came mainly after the Mandal commission implementation.. So did for the likes of RJD SP ect. Then the Babar Masjid demolition and a weak Congress headed by N Rao fueled their rises further .

Why do think OBC communities who are actually the dominant And oppressors in most of rural India have similar reservations.Why do think BJP Govt is banning beefs that's also eaten by plenty of Hindus .Caste appeasement


The Tamil identity that Tamils have had for 2000 years

Most Indians identify first based on caste and language than Religion so asking for separate Hindu rashtra lol.

 

[CricketCartoons]

BJP rise came mainly after the Mandal commission implementation.. So did for the likes of RJD SP ect. Then the Babar Masjid demolition and a weak Congress headed by N Rao fueled their rises further .

Why do think OBC communities who are actually the dominant And oppressors in most of rural India have similar reservations.Why do think BJP Govt is banning beefs that's also eaten by plenty of Hindus .Caste appeasement


The Tamil identity that Tamils have had for 2000 years

Most Indians identify first based on caste and language than Religion so asking for separate Hindu rashtra lol.

You don't know how and why the rise of BJP happened. Stick to madrasi history.

Ram Janmabhoomi movement started in 1980s after Rajiv the sickularist overturned the SC verdict on Shah Bano to appease the muslim zealots. And then in trying to "compensate" he tried to appease the hindu zealots by unlocking the babri masjid. These two things, under the watch of "secular" Congress led to rise in fundamentalism.
I am so happy that Rajiv Gandhi met his proper end.

 

[BeautifulGame]

You don't know how and why the rise of BJP happened. Stick to madrasi history.

Ram Janmabhoomi movement started in 1980s after Rajiv the sickularist overturned the SC verdict on Shah Bano to appease the muslim zealots. And then in trying to "compensate" he tried to appease the hindu zealots by unlocking the babri masjid. These two things, under the watch of "secular" Congress led to rise in fundamentalism.
I am so happy that Rajiv Gandhi met his proper end.

How many times BJP formed the govt in 80s using that ?
Only in the 90s BJP ever grow into a national party and that's becoz of reasons mentioned above

 

[CricketCartoons]

How many times BJP formed the govt in 80s using that ?
Only in the 90s BJP ever grow into a national party and that's becoz of reasons mentioned above

Forming the government is the culmination of the rise. Not the beginning of its rise. As I said, stick to madrasi history.

 

[BeautifulGame]

Forming the government is the culmination of the rise. Not the beginning of its rise. As I said, stick to madrasi history.

Rise doesn't equate winning the Lok Sabha as I said in #129.They were even growing as Jan Sangh even before Shah Banu case

But whatever floats ur boat .

 

[CricketCartoons]

Rise doesn't equate winning the Lok Sabha as I said in #129.They were even growing as Jan Sangh even before Shah Banu case

But whatever floats ur boat .

So you concede that rise does not necessarily mean winning the lok sabha, good.
They were not growing as Jan Sangh. They only got to taste power because of the anti indira movement where all opposition merged to take down yet another scumbag from nehru family, indira. Congress won back due to sympathy wave. But once Rajiv the sickular bowed down to the rabid mullahs in shah bano case, and later to hindutva forces by unlocking the babri masjid, there has been no stopping the rise of hindutva. The opportunity for a secular nation has been missed ( in fact killed by the nehru clan).

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Two different issues.

Was the creation of Pakistan a good step? Yes.
Did the Two Nation Theory fail? Yes, it failed the minute most Muslims decided to stay back in India.

If it failed, how come there are still two nations? If Bangladesh had rejoined India you could claim it had failed, but even they insisted on staying separate and indeed there is now a fence dividing Bangladesh from Indian Bengal. So never mind two nations, now we have three!

 

[Nikhil_cric]

If it failed, how come there are still two nations? If Bangladesh had rejoined India you could claim it had failed, but even they insisted on staying separate and indeed there is now a fence dividing Bangladesh from Indian Bengal. So never mind two nations, now we have three!

Why would Bangladesh have to join with India to prove that the two nation theory has failed? The two nation theory claimed that Muslims of the SC were a separate nation from the Hindus irrespective of differences in culture,language etc. etc. The fact that Muslims of East Pakistan broke away to form Bangladesh is sufficient to show that the theory has failed. Religion alone was enough for Muslims to form a nation.

 

[moumotta]

If it failed, how come there are still two nations? If Bangladesh had rejoined India you could claim it had failed, but even they insisted on staying separate and indeed there is now a fence dividing Bangladesh from Indian Bengal. So never mind two nations, now we have three!

In implementing two nation theory Jinnah asked for ONE separate country for muslims, not separate countries for muslim punjabis, muslim malayalis and muslim bengalis. Two nation theory essentially argued that Islam is the primary identity of Indian muslims that superseded language, culture and ethnicity. Clearly religion was seen as a stronger binding force than any of the other cultural or ethnic traits. Events of 1971 proved that theory wrong.

Once separated it is very difficult to bring nations together. There are enough political and other interests that make it almost impossible. If not Pakistan would have joined Afghanistan in 1947. US and Canada do not form one entity despite clear economic benefits and cultural similarities.. Australia and New Zealand don't join together. Nepal is a Hindu nation. There are no religious differences with India and yet they never thought of forming a political union.

To argue that Bangla Desh not joining India some how validates two nation theory is to ignore all the more compelling and practical reasons.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Why would Bangladesh have to join with India to prove that the two nation theory has failed? The two nation theory claimed that Muslims of the SC were a separate nation from the Hindus irrespective of differences in culture,language etc. etc. The fact that Muslims of East Pakistan broke away to form Bangladesh is sufficient to show that the theory has failed. Religion alone was enough for Muslims to form a nation.

The theory succeeded in showing that Hindus and Muslims are separate nations and incompatible.
It failed in showing that Muslims are one nation.

 

[moumotta]

The theory succeeded in showing that Hindus and Muslims are separate nations and incompatible.
It failed in showing that Muslims are one nation.

I will argue it failed to even prove the first bit. Otherwise we would have seen larger and voluntary muslim migration to Pakistan. As it turned out much of the exchange of population that actually took place was from riot hit areas.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

The theory succeeded in showing that Hindus and Muslims are separate nations and incompatible.
It failed in showing that Muslims are one nation.

Yeah that I can somewhat agree with. Although there are 200 million muslim s living in India which kinda disproves that too.

 

[CricketCartoons]

I will argue it failed to even prove the first bit. Otherwise we would have seen larger and voluntary muslim migration to Pakistan. As it turned out much of the exchange of population that actually took place was from riot hit areas.

Hindus and Muslims in India have developed deep fault lines. There are muslim areas in towns and cities, where people don't go. Many muslims identify themselves as muslims first. For example, Tamil muslims protesting against the beef ban in Maharashtra.

Two nation theory is valid and Jinnah was right.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Yeah that I can somewhat agree with. Although there are 200 million muslim s living in India which kinda disproves that too.

But in some districts they are living in a state of apartheid where Muslims live in one area and Hindus live in another. This was stated by one of your own compatriots who lives in Mumbai. I can live a far better life in Lahore than I ever could in Mumbai. So for most Pakistanis the two nation theory was a spanking success.

 

[BeautifulGame]

But in some districts they are living in a state of apartheid where Muslims live in one area and Hindus live in another. This was stated by one of your own compatriots who lives in Mumbai. I can live a far better life in Lahore than I ever could in Mumbai. So for most Pakistanis the two nation theory was a spanking success.

But at least they are allowed to study unlike in Pakistan

http://shiarightswatch.org/en/middl...-education-for-shia-students-in-pakistan.html

 

[CricketCartoons]

But at least they are allowed to study unlike in Pakistan

http://shiarightswatch.org/en/middl...-education-for-shia-students-in-pakistan.html

TNT turned out to be great for Sunni Punjabis, which is like the majority of Pakistan.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

But at least they are allowed to study unlike in Pakistan

http://shiarightswatch.org/en/middl...-education-for-shia-students-in-pakistan.html

Everyone is allowed to study in Pakistan, but obviously miscreants will find themselves duly punished. That would be the same at any school. As we all remember, even cheering for the wrong cricket team can get you lynched in India.

 

[mallu]

May be at the time of partition, it should have been 3 or 4 nations (one each for Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Dalits, Seculars, etc). Because right now the complaining, hating and victim playing are all just too much (at least in some parts of the country).