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What Happens to Saeed Ajmal's Legacy?

CricFan2012

CricFan2012

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After he's been showed to be a chucker he is now extremly ineffective which goes on to show he only ever got wickets due to his doosra which was chucked.

What do people have to say for this? Whatever happens to all those batsmen that got out or teams that lost due to Ajmals chucking?

I am by no means a hater but his excuse for chucking has been that accident is looking like a lie now.

Another thing thats even more sad is that people still consider him a hero... Then they say that why ICC didnt take action prior. I think ICC was too weak, they finally manned up and decided to ban chuckers despite their popularity.
 
You can't ignore that he was cleared previously. He was caught this time and forced to change the action because of a deterioration in his action as well as due to changes in ICC protocol. If the rules had always been implemented like this, the only doosra bowler would have possibly been Saqlain and no one would remember a certain Muralitharan as one of the greats of the game. It's a complicated situation, really.
 
Questionable, at best. A tragic end to a great career.
 
What happens to the legacy of bowlers who used to bowl body-line before it was made illegal? What happens to the legacy of batsmen and bowlers who used to get biased treatment from home umpires before neutral umpiring became the norm? What happens to the legacy of bowlers who used to tamper with the ball before the ICC starter to crack down on it?

Ajmal was cleared in 09 and continued bowling legally until he was called and banned during 2014. The ICC's methods of analyzing a bowler's action changed so how is it Ajmal's fault if he kept on doing what he always did? He was just unlucky to play in-between eras when the ICC's rules were changing. Had he been playing in the era of Bhajjan and Murali, nothing would be said about him.

He remains a champion spinner, one of the greatest of all time in ODIs, and the one bowler who carried the Pakistani attack for a good four years, in all formats. His legacy is intact and my respect for him has even increased with the hunger and hard work that he has shown in redeeming his action.
 
Guess you could say its been....

*puts on sunglasses*

chucked in the bin

*csi miami theme plays*
 
Were these rules in place 20-25+ years ago? Was ball tampering not considered as art of bowling many many years ago? These man made rules wont change the natural understanding and concept of the game.
 
These rules were in place while Ajmal was bowling and getting wickets.

Was the team management not concerned on his action? It did seem suspicious when he started wearing long sleeves.
 
You can't take away what he has achieved. It remains there in the records. But obviously, the shine has come off a bit due to changing perceptions about his bowling action before and now. But you can't say now that all he did before was illegal; when he got those wickets they were legally earned, so he gets the credit for them deservedly.
As far as legacy goes, it will be mixed now depending on who you talk to. Hardcore fans will get behind their hero, others will look at his legacy differently now. That's how it has been for most cricketers in the upper middle echelon - mixed legacies.
 
CricFan2012 said:
These rules were in place while Ajmal was bowling and getting wickets.

Was the team management not concerned on his action? It did seem suspicious when he started wearing long sleeves.
Click to expand...

Ajmal was cleared and comfortably. These rules were not in place before 2014, if they were, Ajmal would have been found to be chucking back in 09.
 
The fact remains that when he got those wickets, they were, are, and should be considered legal. It does not matter if his action deteriorated, which I think did happen.
There is no way any test whether done in 2009 or 2014 will miss a difference of 30 degrees. He could not have been bowling at 45 degrees in 2009, it would be preposterous to think, don't you think? This is why his overall legacy will be always be mixed and with a question mark.
 
He'll be remembered as a chucker, that's all.

More importantly, he needs to retire.
 
His legacy now will surely be tainted. It will not be too far fetched to claim that e got all those wickets because he was Chucking !! Not easy to argue against that either. The Purist will easily discard him, how can you blame them either !! Us average Joe will feel sorry for him and move on. So such is life .. not easy to be a Cricket fan in Pakistan at the moment.
 
Abdullah719 said:
You can't ignore that he was cleared previously. He was caught this time and forced to change the action because of a deterioration in his action as well as due to changes in ICC protocol. If the rules had always been implemented like this, the only doosra bowler would have possibly been Saqlain and no one would remember a certain Muralitharan as one of the greats of the game. It's a complicated situation, really.
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No positive legacy.

His previous "clearance" was dubious anyway once UWA's indulgence towards chuckers and "flexibility" with testing points on the arm became public knowledge.

But the final nail in his coffin is that he is incapable of being effective with a straight arm. It makes it obvious that he chucked to get all his wickets. Talk of a deterioration in his action is exposed as lies simply because he cannot return to an action which is both legal and effective.
 
His record will remain in record books but many will put a mental asterisk against his record.

Also, it's clear now that he wasn't chucking due to any accident.
 
Can see people clinging to the notion that dear old ajmal 'was cleared before' hence will go down as a good spinner.

Plain fact will be that he was chucking earlier, and as soon as the ban hammer came down.. his 'special case' due to 'some accident' went into the trash can and he got himself a rectified action within decent time as well.
 
His legacy has been ruined because of the chucking action. Among Pakistani spinners, he will be always below Qadir, Saqlain, Mushtaq, Kaneria and Afridi.
 
Afraid so.

He will always carry an asterisk, just like Murali.

People say that Murali was cleared, but they omit to mention that he was also found guilty of chucking too.

In January 1999 when Ross Emerson called Murali onfield for chucking that was a conviction for chucking. There was no further or later testing process at that time.

The same was true in 1995 when Darrell Hair called Murali for chucking. That too was a final conviction.

The only argument that Murali was not a chucker is also the same as the argument that actually he was. It is to say "there wasn't a robust lab testing process at the time, so he should not be viewed as a man twice found guilty of chucking but rather as a man exonerated by later technology."

But even later technology has shown, viz Saeed Ajmal, that people exonerated by the University of Western Australia's technology and lax testing protocols could actually be caught as chuckers under the current, stricter application of the rules.

So we are back to Murali being a man twice found guilty of chucking. His later exoneration was under a now-discredited testing system, and is worthless.
 
Dont use the word chucker for him. His action had been found illegal. Use the word illegal. Well his statistics are intact officially so we must not feel sorry for the batsmen who got out to him. If he had been banned and had he not cleared his action only then it would have been sad if people considered him their hero.
 
Not much positive remains, sadly.
He shouldn't have come back without extensive domestic performances and making sure he was still effective. He only has himself to blame.
 
The only difference between 2009 and 2014 is in 2009 a bowler could do the testing with a different action and get cleared then revert to his old action in matches. In 2014 they started overlaying his match action over his testing action to make sure that bowlers bowled the same in testing as they did in matches.
 
Bilal7 said:
What happens to the legacy of bowlers who used to bowl body-line before it was made illegal? What happens to the legacy of batsmen and bowlers who used to get biased treatment from home umpires before neutral umpiring became the norm? What happens to the legacy of bowlers who used to tamper with the ball before the ICC starter to crack down on it?

Ajmal was cleared in 09 and continued bowling legally until he was called and banned during 2014. The ICC's methods of analyzing a bowler's action changed so how is it Ajmal's fault if he kept on doing what he always did? He was just unlucky to play in-between eras when the ICC's rules were changing. Had he been playing in the era of Bhajjan and Murali, nothing would be said about him.

He remains a champion spinner, one of the greatest of all time in ODIs, and the one bowler who carried the Pakistani attack for a good four years, in all formats. His legacy is intact and my respect for him has even increased with the hunger and hard work that he has shown in redeeming his action.
Click to expand...

+1
 
So Bilai7, you're okay that Ajmal has been found out to be chucking? Are you okay with the fact that he won you so many games be using an illegal action?

I don't think Murali really has a legacy, many will mention Warne to be a better spinner than him, Bhajji hasn't been that good of a bowler most of his career, but on the other hand Ajmal was blatantly flexing above 15 and getting economical figures with wickets. That's unfair, this has impacted Pakistan most of all who are struggling as they relied on him.
 
CricFan2012 said:
So Bilai7, you're okay that Ajmal has been found out to be chucking? Are you okay with the fact that he won you so many games be using an illegal action?

I don't think Murali really has a legacy, many will mention Warne to be a better spinner than him, Bhajji hasn't been that good of a bowler most of his career, but on the other hand Ajmal was blatantly flexing above 15 and getting economical figures with wickets. That's unfair, this has impacted Pakistan most of all who are struggling as they relied on him.
Click to expand...

What do you not understand about Ajmal getting cleared once and bowling well within the legal limits? He was tested and there was nothing found wrong with his action, what was he supposed to do? Build a time-machine and find out what happens in 2014?

I made quite a few points in one of my earlier posts comparing Ajmal's chucking to body line bowling.

Murali doesn't have a legacy? Lol. He's the best spinner of all time according to me and a lot of others. Bhajji managed to pick over 400 wickets for India too but I don't see anyone questioning his legacy.
 
Chucked his way to loads of wickets. Anyway, his records will remain intact as ICC was inept before the stricter rules came up. With the new action, the guy couldn't do jack, unfortunately.
 
Don't you love it when Indian guys on this forum start threads to insult Pakistani bowlers? Your dislike is plain and evident.

Yes Saeed Ajmal chucked. Yes your ODI team is currently better.

Here's another ugly truth: Our ODI team is historically much better than yours and we have won a whopping 20+ more ODIs over you than you have us. Get over it.
 
It is strange that lots of people defending Ajmal. In spite of Murali being the highest wicket taker of all time, people still don't consider him ahead of Warne because of his suspicious action. Murali was cleared like 100 times but still people raise doubts. Why should Ajmal be any different? Once he changed his action he became ineffective. Obviously people will not consider him great anymore. If he had never played for Pakistan again after the suspension, there could have been a speculation at least that the corrected bowling action wouldn't have reduced his effectiveness but now it is not the case. It will be a mixed feeling for everyone and the verdict will be split as it was for Murali. It will be hard to consider him a great bowler.
 
emad1209 said:
Don't you love it when Indian guys on this forum start threads to insult Pakistani bowlers? Your dislike is plain and evident.

Yes Saeed Ajmal chucked. Yes your ODI team is currently better.

Here's another ugly truth: Our ODI team is historically much better than yours and we have won a whopping 20+ more ODIs over you than you have us. Get over it.
Click to expand...

The same Indian guys praise, Saqlain, Akram et all endlessly in the same forum and insult Ishant, Rohit etc.. also. So please don't say our opinion on Ajmal is due to hate. There is no hate towards Ajmal for anyone here, it is just his cricketing credentials which has been questioned.
 
His record should stand.

He wasn't banned from playing at the time and he wasn't even reported.
 
Bilal7 said:
What happens to the legacy of bowlers who used to bowl body-line before it was made illegal? What happens to the legacy of batsmen and bowlers who used to get biased treatment from home umpires before neutral umpiring became the norm? What happens to the legacy of bowlers who used to tamper with the ball before the ICC starter to crack down on it?

Ajmal was cleared in 09 and continued bowling legally until he was called and banned during 2014. The ICC's methods of analyzing a bowler's action changed so how is it Ajmal's fault if he kept on doing what he always did? He was just unlucky to play in-between eras when the ICC's rules were changing. Had he been playing in the era of Bhajjan and Murali, nothing would be said about him.

He remains a champion spinner, one of the greatest of all time in ODIs, and the one bowler who carried the Pakistani attack for a good four years, in all formats. His legacy is intact and my respect for him has even increased with the hunger and hard work that he has shown in redeeming his action.
Click to expand...

Meh two things are very clear

1) He was cleared before as the system for testing was FAULTY which did not force a bowler to match action of match with one during tests

2) He CAN clearly bowl legally which is shown by his new action. So he was deliberately chucking

Bhajji should have been exposed and banned too. However, Murali genuinely had a floppy wrist so he might have been cleared even under new tests
 
emad1209 said:
Don't you love it when Indian guys on this forum start threads to insult Pakistani bowlers? Your dislike is plain and evident.

Yes Saeed Ajmal chucked. Yes your ODI team is currently better.

Here's another ugly truth: Our ODI team is historically much better than yours and we have won a whopping 20+ more ODIs over you than you have us. Get over it.
Click to expand...

So someone with two posts knows how this forum works. Great
 
Ajmal was ranked as a top spinner before he was called for his action but he was never among the greats due to a short career.

Now if he can continue to take wickets, his legacy would be rescued otherwise he should be remembered as a top off spinner of his time.

Its not his fault, that he wasn't called before - actually he was but ICC cleared him to play so he was legal.
 
Repeated this again and on again over here. Ajmal was cleared in 2009. The testing procedures were changed and hence why he was banned last year. That doesn't take away the fact that he took wickets due to his skills. Not really his fault if ICC keeps changing such procedures. Wait until another spinner shows up and they would be required to change the procedures again. I am no one to doubt ICC's current procedure, the UWA facility are a fair judge as to what was right and what was wrong.
 
He was cleared so his records stand just like Muralis, but in the eyes of the players who played against him he will always be a cheater.
 
Indiafan said:
Meh two things are very clear

1) He was cleared before as the system for testing was FAULTY which did not force a bowler to match action of match with one during tests

2) He CAN clearly bowl legally which is shown by his new action. So he was deliberately chucking

Bhajji should have been exposed and banned too. However, Murali genuinely had a floppy wrist so he might have been cleared even under new tests
Click to expand...

No, you are wrong on both accounts. Cameras were not invented two years ago, UWA also ensured that the bowler was replicating his match action. This is a really lame argument against them when even a child of ten would have the sense to watch for any cheating.

He WAS bowling legally, he never bowled a single illegal delivery in cricket. When the procedures changed and his action was deemed illegal, he went through hours of hardwork to correct it.

Like I said, if Ajmal was bowling 10 years ago, he would have been free from bitter people questioning his legacy.
 
Will not be mentioned amongst the best spinners :warne. Maybe will be compared with some :murali
 
Records prior to the ban should stand. It was ICC's fault anyway if a chucker is given a free reign. Public perception of players are not based on stats alone, so Ajmal will never get the same respect he used to get before his ban, unless he can reproduce his bowling magic with the new action.
 
Some people seem to be forgetting that the last time Ajmal was tested before the ban was in 2009. It’s ICC’s fault for not monitoring his action closely all this time even after UWA had made that recommendation to them back in 2009. The fact of the matter is that he was cleared to play until recently. And that’s that. Also you can't expect someone to undergo couple of months of major remedial work and then come back into international cricket and start producing results straight away. It takes time.
 
For instance using modern technology it has been shown that it's pretty much impossible to bowl properly without any straightening for most types of bowlers. So what about the bowlers pre 90s before all the rule changes (ie when the rule was zero straightening). Theoretically most of them would have been bowling illegally back then. But does that mean that their records should be discarded? You can’t apply rules you have only come to know now to the past like that.
 
He deserved the wickets that he has gotten. There won't be a legacy to inspire future bowlers with, unless I guess the icc decides that it wants to somehow allow limited chucking to be a part of the game.
 
He hasn't played much anyway that people will be argue about his legacy tbh.

The stark difference in his performance pre & post action change does put a bit of cloud over his success.

I mean everyone knew he was pushing it at times, like the instance in t20 world cup vs Aus and 40 deg is no joke, it doesn't happen overnight, it would've increased over-time.

Its no co-incidence that both Narine and Ajmal are struggling post remodeled action.
 
A disgraceful chucker who hampered the careers of talented and deserving spinners like Babar for years who is now on his last legs and deserved to have played a lot more for his country, because he has been the best spinner in Pakistan for years but was blocked by you-know-who.

Ajmal can be Pakistan's first champion in darts. I bet he can hit the bull's eye with great accuracy.
 
Mamoon said:
A disgraceful chucker who hampered the careers of talented and deserving spinners like Babar for years who is now on his last legs and deserved to have played a lot more for his country, because he has been the best spinner in Pakistan for years but was blocked by you-know-who.

Ajmal can be Pakistan's first champion in darts. I bet he can hit the bull's eye with great accuracy.
Click to expand...

This is quite easily one of your worst posts of all time.

Not because of your opinion on Ajmal, but your somehow misplaced high opinion of Babar as someone who could have lead an attack lol.
 
Mamoon said:
A disgraceful chucker who hampered the careers of talented and deserving spinners like Babar for years who is now on his last legs and deserved to have played a lot more for his country, because he has been the best spinner in Pakistan for years but was blocked by you-know-who.

Ajmal can be Pakistan's first champion in darts. I bet he can hit the bull's eye with great accuracy.
Click to expand...

What were Babars stats when Ajmal was playing? Right now he doesnt seem all that special.
 
Saqs said:
This is quite easily one of your worst posts of all time.

Not because of your opinion on Ajmal, but your somehow misplaced high opinion of Babar as someone who could have lead an attack lol.
Click to expand...

CricFan2012 said:
What were Babars stats when Ajmal was playing? Right now he doesnt seem all that special.
Click to expand...

You are unaware of how good Babar was in his pomp. I'm the last person to overrate, but he could have been our Herath had he been given a chance in his peak years 2007-2012.

Very good bowler, who is clearly over the hill now physically. Another blunder was the mediocre Rehman getting the nod over him as well for the years.
 
Bilal7 said:
No, you are wrong on both accounts. Cameras were not invented two years ago, UWA also ensured that the bowler was replicating his match action. This is a really lame argument against them when even a child of ten would have the sense to watch for any cheating.

He WAS bowling legally, he never bowled a single illegal delivery in cricket. When the procedures changed and his action was deemed illegal, he went through hours of hardwork to correct it.

Like I said, if Ajmal was bowling 10 years ago, he would have been free from bitter people questioning his legacy.
Click to expand...

UWA had no requirement of matching action on ground, that's a blatant lie
 
<b>'Why Harbhajan was not banned': Ex-Pak umpire opens up on ICC's decision to ban Saeed Ajmal from bowling</b>

Saeed Ajmal was one of the finest spinners Pakistan has produced in recent times. His off-spin caused problems to the best batters around the world. However, his career was marred with constant allegations of his chucking. He was also banned from bowling by the International Cricket Council.

In recent years, Saeed Ajmal is one of the best spinners the Pakistan cricket team has produced. During the late 2000s and early 2010s, Ajmal's off-spin troubled some of the best batters across the world.

While he proved to be an extremely useful asset for the Pakistan cricket team in both white and red-ball cricket, his career was marred with controversy as he was constantly hit with allegations of chucking and having an illegal action.

After years of complaints and appeals against him, the International Cricket Council (ICC) banned him from bowling in September 2014 after it was found that his action exceeded the 15-degree level of tolerance allowed.

While Ajmal returned to action for a brief period, he could not have the same impact and played his last game for Pakistan in 2015 and retired from all forms of cricket in 2017.

Former Pakistan umpire Asad Rauf has brought back the decision to ban Ajmal in the mainstream and claimed the allegations made were not true and Ajmal had breached the rules. Ajmal had claimed in an interview that the decision to ban him was because Muralitharan had retired and only a player from Pakistan was under the scanner.

“Many people who have been banned have never been told the reason for it. They don't know about the 15-degree rule and all of that. When media came to talk to me, they told me that they had asked the board office to explain the ban. I asked them, 'what would they know about this? You should have come to us. It's our job',” said Rauf to Sports Pak.tv

“Why did Saeed Ajmal get banned? 63 of his deliveries in Sri Lanka were illegal. It's not because he was banned just because he was from Pakistan. People say ICC behaves like a step-child with Pakistan; such things don't happen at this level. People should've been made aware about such rules.

"People say, 'Saeed Ajmal was banned because he was from Pakistan. Why was Harbhajan not banned?' It's all nonsense. Such decisions are taken at a very high level and strictly according to the laws of the game,” he added.

Ajmal played a total of 35 Test matches for Pakistan in which he took 178 wickets. Meanwhile, he also played 113 ODIs and 64 T20Is in which he had 184 and 85 scalps to his name respectively.

https://www.timesnownews.com/sports...ban-saeed-ajmal-from-bowling-article-92769589
 
It is difficult to be too positive about his legacy as it is clear that he was unable to be effective once his action was remodelled. A sad end to his international career - but there needs to be greater scrutiny of actions at domestic level so that those with suspicious actions can have their actions remodelled. Aqeel Ahmad and Tariq Mehmood had similar problems due to their actions being modelled closely on Murali.
 
So Smith can captain Australia even after cheating, CA looking for loopholes to overturn Warner leadership ban and Ajmal has no legacy double standards
 
Kianig89 said:
So Smith can captain Australia even after cheating, CA looking for loopholes to overturn Warner leadership ban and Ajmal has no legacy double standards
Click to expand...

Smith can still vat and score a million runs. So could Warner. OZ pave attack proved that they could take wickets even without sandpaper.

Ajmal proved to be completely useless without the flex. Imo that hurt his legacy more than the fact that he chucked.
 
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