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What is wrong with England's top order?

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mkyawar

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I can not remember them scoring 300 in their first innings ever. Cook, Root, Bairstow are all good players but it is astonishing to see them struggle. India should honestly kick themselves in the foot if they loose this series.
 
The same problem that the Pak top order has. Simple as is they are not good enough.
 
mkyawar said:
I can not remember them scoring 300 in their first innings ever. Cook, Root, Bairstow are all good players but it is astonishing to see them struggle. India should honestly kick themselves in the foot if they loose this series.
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India's batting isn't doing too well either. It's only Virat and for the first time Rahane...no one else.
 
mkyawar said:
I can not remember them scoring 300 in their first innings ever. Cook, Root, Bairstow are all good players but it is astonishing to see them struggle. India should honestly kick themselves in the foot if they loose this series.
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You really don't remember them scoring 300 in their first innings?
 
BaankeJi said:
You really don't remember them scoring 300 in their first innings?
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I mean when they are batting first of a test match. Not when they have gotten the team out for 100 like at lords or like they did with Pak at leeds
 
Their best batsmen have stopped scoring a hundred long back.

Their second best batsmen has done fine but he bats lower at 5 and keeping does constrain the batting as well.

Others are mostly a hit or miss.
 
Been flimsy since Andrew Strauss retired and Jonathan Trott vacated the #3 position.
 
Cook’s eyes have gone.

[insert other opener here] is not good enough for test cricket.

Root is a #4 not a #3 and captaincy is affecting his batting.

Bairstow is handicapped by keeping wicket.
 
Surely its time cook made way and buttler dons the gloves

It makes no sense for bairstow batting at 5 and keeping whilst buttler bats at 7 without the gloves
 
Robert said:
Cook’s eyes have gone.

[insert other opener here] is not good enough for test cricket.

Root is a #4 not a #3 and captaincy is affecting his batting.

Bairstow is handicapped by keeping wicket.
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Root should go down and send someone else as #3 from next match.

End is near for Cook.
 
Trevor Bayliss just does not prioritise occupation of the crease.

If Curran hadn’t made quickfire runs in the First Test we’d have lost that too!
 
Even the best of the best teams can come apart in seamer-friendly conditions. That is what we are seeing
 
England has struggled with stable top order after Strauss retired. The top three slots have been a revolving door with multiple openers tried at various times. Dawid Malan, who had a brilliant Australian tour is no longer in favour. The middle order as well has too many ODI type players which doesn't help as well. The biggest issue for England is that Joe Root cannot make hundreds and Alastair Cook scores once in 10 Tests.
 
England seem to have forgotten how to graft. Sometimes you have to accept that the bowlers are on top and you must dig in for a while and defend.
 
Their only batsman who can win games looks like bairstow who has workload of keeping as well. Root should retire if he can't bat in this series as its long run for him in test cricket.
 
I simply do not understand the logic of playing Jos Butler at 7 as a specialist batsman. Is there anyone on this forum who can explain me this. I remember that Mark Boucher and Ab used to play together. We did not see AB keep and boucher bat as a specialist batsman ( this maximised ABs batting). Same with Sanga and Prasanna. Where were the England think tank when god was distributing common sense? Have never heard in the 150 years of test cricket, a specialist batsman batting at number 7, either it is a wicket keeper or an allrounder. England should respect logic and free their number 1 batsman from wicket keeping duties. COMMON SENSE TREVOR BAYLISS AND CO
 
Robert said:
Bairstow is handicapped by keeping wicket.
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Poor argument. Wicketkeeping is in his job description. One cannot use one's job as an excuse for not doing said job.

Having said that, Bairstow has been doing quite well imo. I think it's unfair to say that he hasn't been putting up good shows with the bat. Even in this series he already has an 80 and a 90 in 4 innings. What more do you want?
 
They are irresponsible...if they had gotten out to Shami, India's best bowler, then I could understand, but the collapse came against a bang average bowler with no rhythm, swing or seam. England flayed around, did not look to build and fell apart, as they so often have since the loss of Cook's form and KP in the middle order.
 
Sam99 said:
Their only batsman who can win games looks like bairstow who has workload of keeping as well. Root should retire if he can't bat in this series as its long run for him in test cricket.
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At age 27? He’s got eight or nine years left. But I think he should give up the captaincy and get back to run scoring. I think the top seven should be:

Bairstow
Jennings (if he gets runs tomorrow)
Vince
Root
Morgan (captain)
Stokes
Buttler or Foakes (w)
 
the_outsider said:
Poor argument. Wicketkeeping is in his job description. One cannot use one's job as an excuse for not doing said job.

Having said that, Bairstow has been doing quite well imo. I think it's unfair to say that he hasn't been putting up good shows with the bat. Even in this series he already has an 80 and a 90 in 4 innings. What more do you want?
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Big hundreds of course. Take the gloves off him and let him focus on run-scoring.

What’s poor about it? He came into the side as a top-order batsman. They gave him the gloves when Prior retired.

Look at Stewart who averaged 46 as a non-keeper and 34 as a keeper.
 
Too many players in there who look good when they go in at 200/2, but haven't got the temperament to grind it out and bat for long periods.
 
Robert said:
Big hundreds of course. Take the gloves off him and let him focus on run-scoring.

What’s poor about it? He came into the side as a top-order batsman. They gave him the gloves when Prior retired.

Look at Stewart who averaged 46 as a non-keeper and 34 as a keeper.
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Yes but he is in the team as first choice keeper. That's part of the role he is entrusted with playing.

By that logic we should never compare regular top order batsmen with any keepers because they are completely different roles. But that really doesn't happen does it? Because it's too arbitrary to quantify keeping contribution. So that's why we leave that out of the discussion.

As they say, don't let the job get in the way of the job.
 
Saj said:
Too many players in there who look good when they go in at 200/2, but haven't got the temperament to grind it out and bat for long periods.
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I believe that's exactly what Pujara, Kohli and Rahane did.

Pujara played 200+ balls
Kohli played 197
Rahane played 94

Sounds like long periods to me.

PS: And the score was 111 when Pujara and Kohli started batting together. Not 200.
 
the_outsider said:
I believe that's exactly what Pujara, Kohli and Rahane did.

Pujara played 200+ balls
Kohli played 197
Rahane played 94

Sounds like long periods to me.

PS: And the score was 111 when Pujara and Kohli started batting together. Not 200.
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Thread is about England...
 
Simply put .... Indians are the better Team in this match. They were not in the First and 2nd Test Match !!!
 
the_outsider said:
Yes but he is in the team as first choice keeper. That's part of the role he is entrusted with playing.

By that logic we should never compare regular top order batsmen with any keepers because they are completely different roles. But that really doesn't happen does it? Because it's too arbitrary to quantify keeping contribution. So that's why we leave that out of the discussion.

As they say, don't let the job get in the way of the job.
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So entrust him with opening the batting and not keeping instead.
 
they are batting quite well in the 2nd innings... already 23 in 9 overs.
 
I don't expect win but top 4 are due for runs so there is a possibility of match getting closer.
I hope at least Ollie pope makes his mark today.
 
No idea what’s going on. Poorest top & upper-middle order that England have fielded in decades. Cook historically was a world-class batsman abd Root / Bairstow are there currently, but individual talent aside it’s their non-partnerships and inability to occupy the crease for long periods that is really hurting England.
 
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England have become the new Pakistan. Constantly shuffling their openers, lousy catching, inconsistency, bizarre selections, overreliance on their key bowlers, and frequent batting collapses.

Cook is clearly a fading force whilst Root's batting a position too high IMO.
 
James said:
No idea what’s going on. Poorest top & upper-middle order that England have fielded in decades. Cook historically was a world-class batsman abd Root / Bairstow are there currently, but individual talent aside it’s their non-partnerships and inability to occupy the crease for long periods that is really hurting England.
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I would go further than ‘decades’ - this us the worst England top five in history.

The CC doesn’t produce test batsmen like it used to any more. Jennings, Malan and a raft of other guys are not test quality.

Cook is done but the selectors don’t have the guts to call time, hoping against hope that he has one more big ton in him. Root is unsuited to captaincy. Bairstow is handicapped by the keeper’s gloves.

I am afraid that they are not coached well either. Lose Bayliss for tests, lose Ramps.
 
Since 2017 England openers are just struggling.

Opening partnership record in 2017

[table=width: 600, class: grid, align: center]
[tr][td]Team [/td][td]Partners [/td][td]Inns [/td][td]NO [/td][td]Runs [/td][td]High [/td][td]Avg [/td][td]100 [/td][td]50 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Australia [/td][td]5 [/td][td]30 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]1292 [/td][td]173* [/td][td]44.55 [/td][td]3 [/td][td]8 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]India [/td][td]6 [/td][td]31 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]1239 [/td][td]188 [/td][td]39.96 [/td][td]3 [/td][td]5 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Ireland [/td][td]1 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]74 [/td][td]69 [/td][td]37 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]1 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]New Zealand [/td][td]1 [/td][td]14 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]503 [/td][td]83 [/td][td]35.92 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]5 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]South Africa [/td][td]4 [/td][td]39 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]1244 [/td][td]243 [/td][td]31.89 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]6 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Zimbabwe [/td][td]4 [/td][td]9 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]243 [/td][td]99 [/td][td]30.37 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]1 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Pakistan [/td][td]5 [/td][td]18 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]520 [/td][td]155 [/td][td]28.88 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]2 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Bangladesh [/td][td]6 [/td][td]27 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]737 [/td][td]118 [/td][td]28.34 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]4 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Sri Lanka [/td][td]9 [/td][td]39 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]987 [/td][td]116 [/td][td]25.3 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]7 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]West Indies [/td][td]2 [/td][td]28 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]694 [/td][td]113 [/td][td]24.78 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]4 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]England [/td][td]2 [/td][td]34 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]766 [/td][td]80 [/td][td]22.52 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]5 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Afghanistan [/td][td]1 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]34 [/td][td]19 [/td][td]17 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[/table]
 
the_outsider said:
Poor argument. Wicketkeeping is in his job description. One cannot use one's job as an excuse for not doing said job.

Having said that, Bairstow has been doing quite well imo. I think it's unfair to say that he hasn't been putting up good shows with the bat. Even in this series he already has an 80 and a 90 in 4 innings. What more do you want?
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Right now England are in desperate need of someone who can bat in the top order and score hundreds. It might be tome for Johnny to grow up and be that person. No one else they pick seems capable.
 
Root has played 72 tests and has got just 13 hundreds. Unacceptable for a guy averaging 50+!
 
bairstow must be tried as an opener. I think he will succeed as an opening batsman.
 
Ab Fan said:
Root has played 72 tests and has got just 13 hundreds. Unacceptable for a guy averaging 50+!
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Really disappointing conversion rate.

This is why KP would get into most people’s all-time England XI whereas currently Root would not, despite KP averaging 47 in his career and Root averaging over 50.

Averages are important but are not the be-all end-all. KP threw out quite a few more cheap scores and stodgy dismissals than Root does, but at least when KP got in he would generally score, score big and influence the outcome of the match.
 
James said:
Really disappointing conversion rate.

This is why KP would get into most people’s all-time England XI whereas currently Root would not, despite KP averaging 47 in his career and Root averaging over 50.

Averages are important but are not the be-all end-all. KP threw out quite a few more cheap scores and stodgy dismissals than Root does, but at least when KP got in he would generally score, score big and influence the outcome of the match.
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KP was comfortably a better batsman than Root even if KP was averaging 35 and Root averaged 75.
 
England used to have a solid top order in Strauss, Cook, Trott and Bell. Even after Strauss's retirement the addition of Root ensured it was a dominant batting unit. They did the hard grind, saw of the opening spell, softened the ball and when the middle-lower order came out were facing tiring opposition bowlers helping them make merry.

Now Strauss retired, Trott and Bell no more in the side, Cook out of form and Root unable to convert. Therefore the opposition has an early crack at the middle order who struggle against a relatively fresh cherry.
 
Their side is full of weak links i.e unreliable batsmen who fail to step up when Root, Bairstow, Cook, Stokes fail to deliver. On top of that Cook, a previously reliable batsman is going into a steady decline himself.

They have a revolving door of openers and middle-order batsmen who come into the team, fail and go back to county. So we can only wait and see how long it takes them to find till they get someone permanent in the opening slot and at No. 4. Personally I have a good feeling about Rory Burns and James Vince -- who's one good innings away from kick-starting his test career
 
I'd push Cook down the order if it were possible the issue is no one else to play top order. Root batting at three has made it stronger even if he still isn't converting, much better than all three top wickets going for next to nothing. I don't think batting at 3 is affecting his batting opposed to 4, he wasn't converting his scores at 4 either of recent past.

I don't see much opening talent in England, either too young or just not good enough. England have struggled for years to fill that spot to partner Cook and it hasn't worked. If Bairstow can open that might be something, but is a risk as he's probably not used to it. But the more quality batsmen in the top 4 the better, puts up a solid foundation rather playing catch up.

I'd go for something if possible of:

1. Cook
2. Bairstow
3. Root
4. Pope
5. Morgan (c)
6. Stokes
7. Butler (wk)

Morgan's not the best player, but relieves the captaincy pressures from the rest and I don't see any standout middle order batsmen waiting to be drafted in, who isn't already in the team (like Pope who looks pretty talented).
 
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I agree with the whole thing of captaincy affecting Root's batting, but who would take the mantle? I doubt it, but my mind goes to Stuart Broad. I don't think it's going to be Bairstow or Butler, Stokes won his case and wouldn't want the pressure of captaincy to affect his performances, and Jimmy's on his last legs.

Regarding their top order, for England's sake I do hope that Ollie Pope and James Vince (assuming he replaces injured Bairstow) score mountains of runs in the remaining tests.
 
James said:
Really disappointing conversion rate.

This is why KP would get into most people’s all-time England XI whereas currently Root would not, despite KP averaging 47 in his career and Root averaging over 50.

Averages are important but are not the be-all end-all. KP threw out quite a few more cheap scores and stodgy dismissals than Root does, but at least when KP got in he would generally score, score big and influence the outcome of the match.
Click to expand...

KP is most influential in England's famous wins,except the one in SA.
 
JaDed said:
KP is most influential in England's famous wins,except the one in SA.
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For India, in Tests I rate Laxman above most of their other players because he seemed to save his best for the biggest moments.
 
James said:
For India, in Tests I rate Laxman above most of their other players because he seemed to save his best for the biggest moments.
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Sadly only against Aus but defn better than anyone we have right now other than Kohli.
 
ads101 said:
I'd push Cook down the order if it were possible the issue is no one else to play top order. Root batting at three has made it stronger even if he still isn't converting, much better than all three top wickets going for next to nothing. I don't think batting at 3 is affecting his batting opposed to 4, he wasn't converting his scores at 4 either of recent past.

I don't see much opening talent in England, either too young or just not good enough. England have struggled for years to fill that spot to partner Cook and it hasn't worked. If Bairstow can open that might be something, but is a risk as he's probably not used to it. But the more quality batsmen in the top 4 the better, puts up a solid foundation rather playing catch up.

I'd go for something if possible of:

1. Cook
2. Bairstow
3. Root
4. Pope
5. Morgan (c)
6. Stokes
7. Butler (wk)

Morgan's not the best player, but relieves the captaincy pressures from the rest and I don't see any standout middle order batsmen waiting to be drafted in, who isn't already in the team (like Pope who looks pretty talented).
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remember the name "Dan Lawrence" the essex batsmen who is destined to be England's no.4 or no.5 for years to come.
Not able to convert his starts this season but I have full faith that Lawrence will make it to England test squad shortly.
 
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