What should teams do to run through Indian top order?

[Ab Fan]

In limited overs arena, this has become the ultimate challenge for teams. The Indian top order, comprising of Shikhar Dhawan, Rohit Sharma and Virat Kohli have carried the Indian batting from a long while now, from the series in South Africa to the series in England to now Asia Cup.

The fragile middle order has managed to save themselves from embarrasment thanks to the masterclass effort by the trio up front.

How long will this continue and when can we get to watch a bowling attack running through the top order and letting middle order do the talking or gets tested under crucial situations of the game? What needs to be done to get through the trio?

Rohit struggled in SA conditions but Dhawan and Kohli are finding things too easy for them from a while now.

Discuss!

 

[Bangalorean]

Happened once in CT'2017 !

 

[AamchiMumbaikar]

CT2017 finals say 'hello'

 

[Ab Fan]

Flukes can be discarded conveniently.

 

[Itachi]

A "fluke" will be a proper answer.

Against all odds where even the crows sing like a Nightingale, when the night becomes brighter than the day..... The undeserving team, via a process known as "fluke" will run through the top order.

 

[Indiafan]

Take catches?

 

[Shandarchowka]

Some sad replies there.. Just play them in swinging conditions and even Zimbabwe and Bangladesh will run through them

 

[Indiafan]

CT2017 finals say 'hello'

340+ target in a major final has never been chased in cricket history

 

[Ab Fan]

The only way I see teams can run through this side is if they score 300 batting first.

Even there, the trio can win India matches but opposition has a great chance to succumb Indian top order lineup under the scoring pressure.

 

[Shafi]

Just accept we don't have bowlers to do that. Luck happens once in a blue moon.

 

[Ab Fan]

Some sad replies there.. Just play them in swinging conditions and even Zimbabwe and Bangladesh will run through them

In SA against SA, Dhawan and Kohli piled lots of runs in that 6 match ODI series.

 

[bujhee kom]

Just accept we don't have bowlers to do that. Luck happens once in a blue moon.

Maybe Pk did fluke the CT.

 

[YousafTheBeast]

Pick Junaid Khan, again we let India win due to selections

 

[Peshwa]

In SA against SA, Dhawan and Kohli piled lots of runs in that 6 match ODI series.

But that was South Africa C team

 

[KingKhanWC]

Against England where the new ball does a bit, only Kohli scored a 50+ in the last 2 matches meaning India lost the series.

Here in UAE, the new ball is the best time to bat, it's just other top orders have played poorly.

In the World Cup in England, India wont be dominating with its top order. OP gets excited because he's Indian.

 

[Swing]

Try not to drop the catch of Rohit Sharma for starters maybe?

 

[zeusathon]

Take catches atleast. If you don't take them against inform batsmen, you're to blame. Teams put extra effort in fielding against such players but we are stuck with our fantasizes of running over the order like we used to do in past.

 

[Ab Fan]

But that was South Africa C team

I am not talking about winning/losing. I am only talking about top 3 piling loads of runs and are non-stoppable these days. The bowlers were the best SA could field.

 

[Savak]

9 times out of 10 India will bat perfectly in these conditions. They just know how to bat in conditions which don't aid the bowlers.

 

[AamchiMumbaikar]

340+ target in a major final has never been chased in cricket history

Of course but OP is projecting as if we are Aussies of 2000's
We have a weak/ old middle order which rarely gets exposed/ tested. When it gets exposed in a major semi/ final match it will be CT2017 finals repeat.

Pant, KL and Pandey should play instead of our current 4,5,6. Jadeja too isn't a sure start XI because he gets predictable on phattas.

 

[Asif321]

Take the catches

 

[JaDed]

Against England where the new ball does a bit, only Kohli scored a 50+ in the last 2 matches meaning India lost the series.

Here in UAE, the new ball is the best time to bat, it's just other top orders have played poorly.

In the World Cup in England, India wont be dominating with its top order. OP gets excited because he's Indian.

Good think about Indian openers is they learn from mistakes in ODI, it has been a trend so hoping they do away with the new ball and bat on to make runs, bar one match in CT 2017 ,they actually did that in all.matches.

 

[JaDed]

9 times out of 10 India will bat perfectly in these conditions. They just know how to bat in conditions which don't aid the bowlers.

You guys batted here too ,it's your own home ground now how should Indians k ow batting here better than Pak is beyond me.

 

[Ab Fan]

Of course but OP is projecting as if we are Aussies of 2000's
We have a weak/ old middle order which rarely gets exposed/ tested. When it gets exposed in a major semi/ final match it will be CT2017 finals repeat.

Pant, KL and Pandey should play instead of our current 4,5,6. Jadeja too isn't a sure start XI because he gets predictable on phattas.

No, I never said it is anywhere close to Aus of 2000s, lol. I just feel the top 3 is one of the strongest top 3 you get to see. Almost similar to Gilchrist, Hayden and Ponting. But middle order is massively fragile and needs to be tested or else if they are brought up like it was in CT final, similar story will happen.

Atleast, I wanted to see how they go with the 250 odd chase even.

 

[Ab Fan]

This top 3 makes me envious.

 

[Itachi]

If shaw somewhat comes in to the same category, this fab 4 will be a nightmare for opposition.

 

[Rana]

Build pressure if you can’t pick them up when they are fresh at the crease. Indian top order players release pressure by targeting a boundary per over.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Swing!

You have got to find the right conditions to swing it around and surely it's a challenge for any batsmen and not just these 3. Amir, Junaid have had success when they moved the ball at will.

 

[Itachi]

Build pressure if you can’t pick them up when they are fresh at the crease. Indian top order players release pressure by targeting a boundary per over.

The main strength is picking the gaps in my opinion. Even if they don't get a boundary, they'll make sure to get at least 4-5 runs. Boundaries are bonus.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Bat first, Put up a huge total. That too on bigger grounds with a bit in it for bowling.That is the only chance. Scoreboard pressure will get to them. But if you put up a middle of the road score. One of the three will play on their terms and come good. Only when you are forced to play against their nature they can be undone.

 

[cricketindiafan]

Prepare bowler friendly wickets when playing at home. On pitches with swing and seam, Sharma and Dhawan are very inconsistent.

Other thing is to wait for finals, see India win toss and chose to chase. Pressure of chase in finals gets to all three of them. All three have mediocre record in finals.

 

[ind_win]

all the breast-beating , so to say, is good - agreed the trio is very good - but they are not good in finals and India has no middle order. The trio and then lower order, that is very scary for a bad day in the office.
With Gill, Pant and Shaw in the mix in 2 years time, the team will be good. But then the other two, barring kohli, may or may not be in their prime. Anyhow, we have to enjoy the present moment. So, have to say, 'well-played trio'.

 

[the_outsider]

Prepare bowler friendly wickets when playing at home. On pitches with swing and seam, Sharma and Dhawan are very inconsistent.

Other thing is to wait for finals, see India win toss and chose to chase. Pressure of chase in finals gets to all three of them. All three have mediocre record in finals.

Rohit and Dhawan have played 2 finals. Rohit has failed in both. But Dhawan scored 31 with a SR of 130 in the CT 13 final which was a 20-over game.

Virat has played 3 finals. He scored a very crucial 35 in 2011 and was the highest scorer in the CT 13 final scoring 43.

So mediocre is not the word I would use for Dhawan and certainly not for Kohli.

 

[ads101]

If you have good opening pair of fast bowlers who bowl well with the new ball, you're going to pressure the top order and get wickets. Just like CT. And then their middle order isn't that great. The issue is that their top 3 batsmen stay in long enough that they can milk the spinners/middle overs too.

More over if the Top 3 are restricted in terms of SR, their middle order isn't good enough to rescue the run rate later.

Usually at least for Pakistan (and most likely other teams too), we've had bad bowling upfront. Amir restricts runs but doesn't take wickets, and his partner bowls badly and gets smashed. Hence no pressure created upfront. Which is partly why I want Abbas in the side, we need more consistent bowlers with the new ball, not loose cannons.

While this is perhaps the strongest ODI top three in history (not just India's), I still think India's 2011 batting line up was better. That one was so scary, it didn't matter if one guy got out, someone else would just come in and bat just as well. When you had batsmen like Yuvraj, Dhoni in their prime, even Raina was a force at 7. Now if you manage to decimate the top 3 the line up is vulnerable.

 

[cricketindiafan]

Rohit and Dhawan have played 2 finals. Rohit has failed in both. But Dhawan scored 31 with a SR of 130 in the CT 13 final which was a 20-over game.

Virat has played 3 finals. He scored a very crucial 35 in 2011 and was the highest scorer in the CT 13 final scoring 43.

So mediocre is not the word I would use for Dhawan and certainly not for Kohli.

What? Read your post again, verify the facts and then comeback. All three average in 20s in ODI finals

 

[JattMaula]

If you have good opening pair of fast bowlers who bowl well with the new ball, you're going to pressure the top order and get wickets. Just like CT. And then their middle order isn't that great. The issue is that their top 3 batsmen stay in long enough that they can milk the spinners/middle overs too.

More over if the Top 3 are restricted in terms of SR, their middle order isn't good enough to rescue the run rate later.

Usually at least for Pakistan (and most likely other teams too), we've had bad bowling upfront. Amir restricts runs but doesn't take wickets, and his partner bowls badly and gets smashed. Hence no pressure created upfront. Which is partly why I want Abbas in the side, we need more consistent bowlers with the new ball, not loose cannons.

While this is perhaps the strongest ODI top three in history (not just India's), I still think India's 2011 batting line up was better. That one was so scary, it didn't matter if one guy got out, someone else would just come in and bat just as well. When you had batsmen like Yuvraj, Dhoni in their prime, even Raina was a force at 7. Now if you manage to decimate the top 3 the line up is vulnerable.

11 WC batting was better overall.

But bowling was very conditions dependent. Hosting helped us. Pakistan lost golden chance in semi final.

 

[troodon]

WE will br massively exposed in the world. Up once top 3 fails.

The middle order of Jadhav,Rayadu, MSD will not score more than 50 runs at 4 rpo when they are under pressure.

Time to bring in Shaw in the middle order. KL Rahul is a must in LOI’s. But Rayadu’s Biryani seems to be too good to pass on for Shastri and co.

 

[the_outsider]

What? Read your post again, verify the facts and then comeback. All three average in 20s in ODI finals

Which fact did I get wrong? Pray tell me.

 

[Stewie]

You have to bowl stump to stump and not give too many scoring opportunities.. the too three of indian ODI team are free flowing and if you choke the runs, they will take risks and then its upto the fielding to take those chances..

But on flat wickets with no seam, spin, swing, this is the best you can do with two new white balls.

I dont think they are that dangerous in tests but in ODIs, certsinly a big force...

 

[cricketindiafan]

Which fact did I get wrong? Pray tell me.

Cricinfo -> Statsguru -> ODIs -> Batting -> Advanced Filter -> India -> Match type -> Tournament Finals -> Submit

Do this, you’ll have your answer

 

[the_outsider]

Rohit and Dhawan have played 2 finals. Rohit has failed in both. But Dhawan scored 31 with a SR of 130 in the CT 13 final which was a 20-over game.

Virat has played 3 finals. He scored a very crucial 35 in 2011 and was the highest scorer in the CT 13 final scoring 43.

So mediocre is not the word I would use for Dhawan and certainly not for Kohli.

Cricinfo -> Statsguru -> ODIs -> Batting -> Advanced Filter -> India -> Match type -> Tournament Finals -> Submit

Do this, you’ll have your answer

Don't sidestep the question.

I have qouted my original post. Point out which fact that I mentioned incorrect. You asked me to verify facts, right? So tell me specifically which of my facts is incorrect.

 

[Savak]

Practice the art of defensive bowling in ODI's and T-20's. If you go to attack this line up with blind pace, aggression like the Australian mindset or the Imran Khan mindset, then you will get murdered as these Indian's love pace and the ball coming on to the bat and to play their shots.

But Malinga and Kulusekra showed in the 2014 T-20 final in the final 4 overs that if the bowlers stick to a discplined plan and bowl to their field placings and are willing to give up trying to pick up wickets and be content with just limiting scorings to singles, they can contain the Indian batting line up.

 

[DRsohail]

Only swinging conditions.

 

[Swashbuckler]

In a pressure match all teams will fancy their chances against our jellyfish top 3.

 

[the_outsider]

Practice the art of defensive bowling in ODI's and T-20's. If you go to attack this line up with blind pace, aggression like the Australian mindset or the Imran Khan mindset, then you will get murdered as these Indian's love pace and the ball coming on to the bat and to play their shots.

But Malinga and Kulusekra showed in the 2014 T-20 final in the final 4 overs that if the bowlers stick to a discplined plan and bowl to their field placings and are willing to give up trying to pick up wickets and be content with just limiting scorings to singles, they can contain the Indian batting line up.

That will certainly not work against a six hitter like Rohit.

And I doubt that approach will work against Kohli either. I remember that match. And it was mostly Yuvraj who struggled. Kohli was still hitting his shots but later on he simply couldn't get on strike because Yuvraj was struggling to rotate strike. And I remember that Australia tried this approach against Kohli in the 2016 T20 WC. It didn't work. And it's always unlikely to work against batmen like Kohli who relies as much on running between the wickets as he does on boundry hitting. Even without hitting boundaries he is good enough to convert ones into twos and eek out 7 runs an over.

 

[Savak]

That will certainly not work against a six hitter like Rohit.

And I doubt that approach will work against Kohli either. I remember that match. And it was mostly Yuvraj who struggled. Kohli was still hitting his shots but later on he simply couldn't get on strike because Yuvraj was struggling to rotate strike. And I remember that Australia tried this approach against Kohli in the 2016 T20 WC. It didn't work. And it's always unlikely to work against batmen like Kohli who relies as much on running between the wickets as he does on boundry hitting. Even without hitting boundaries he is good enough to convert ones into twos and eek out 7 runs an over.

Kohli was hitting shots but straight to the fielders. You have to bowl smart on these flat lifeless wickets and understand the realities and put your ego aside. You have to accept you cant blast the batsman out with pace on these wickets and your next best option is to restrict the boundaries to singles by bowling intelligently to your field and having the fielders in the right places. This is what Dhoni as captain specialized in and this is why he was able to get the best out of avg bowling resources in the limited overs format.

 

[Savak]

That will certainly not work against a six hitter like Rohit.

And I doubt that approach will work against Kohli either. I remember that match. And it was mostly Yuvraj who struggled. Kohli was still hitting his shots but later on he simply couldn't get on strike because Yuvraj was struggling to rotate strike. And I remember that Australia tried this approach against Kohli in the 2016 T20 WC. It didn't work. And it's always unlikely to work against batmen like Kohli who relies as much on running between the wickets as he does on boundry hitting. Even without hitting boundaries he is good enough to convert ones into twos and eek out 7 runs an over.

Kohli was finding the boundaries and even hit the odd six against Faulkener. The aussies unlike the Sri Lankan's did not have their fielders in the right place.