Where does Stuart Broad rank amongst England's best-ever Test bowlers?

[Robert]

Surprise suprise one of the two prominent members of the old era hype brigade rates Caddick and Hoggard above Anderson and Broad.

What’s old about 1994-2008? Feels like last week!

 

[Robert]

[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] - it is also disingenuous of you to accuse me of a lack of respect and regard when I have for years defended A&B from allegations of being useless away from home.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

Angus Fraser who played 46 tests is better than Anderson
Bhuvneshwar kumar averages much better than Anderson overseas,I reckon he just needs to play 20 more tests with the same output to overtake Anderson.
Bhuvi kumar away avg-26
Anderson's away avg-32
Does legacy and longevity hold no weight?

Top 5 English fast bowlers
1.Trueman
2.Anderson
3.Willis
4.Broad
5.Snow

 

[Ab Fan]

It's been 15 years down the line and Anderson and Broad still feature among the strongest bowling attack that England fields today. Does that count for nothing?

Mark Wood averages 20 away from home and Jofra is seen as the next big thing for England but all this hype doesn't make them as good as Anderson and Broad. It takes years of performance to become what they are. If they do it for a couple of years and then fade away, will it make them better than A&B?

Anderson and Broad have built a legacy smething which Hoggard, Caddick , Fraser etc don't have.

Gough has some legacy although he was nowhere in top 10 bowlers of his era but is still widely regarded as one of the supreme bowlers of England from that era, more so in ODIs but we don't see anyone demeaning him by claiming that he won't have fared well in this era with no reverse swing, no dirt-in-a-pocket story to make, no Mike Atherton, flat pitches, small boundaries and players with magnificent hitting ability.

 

[Robert]

Angus Fraser who played 46 tests is better than Anderson
Bhuvneshwar kumar averages much better than Anderson overseas,I reckon he just needs to play 20 more tests with the same output to overtake Anderson.
Bhuvi kumar away avg-26
Anderson's away avg-32
Does legacy and longevity hold no weight?

Top 5 English fast bowlers
1.Trueman
2.Anderson
3.Willis
4.Broad
5.Snow

Longevity - no, none, Else Walsh is a better bowler than Marshall.

You have put someone with good returns in India and Australia below someone who is no more than a stock bowler there.

 

[Last Monetarist]

Longevity - no, none, Else Walsh is a better bowler than Marshall.

Using that ludicrous logic, Neil Mallender was a better bowler than Darren Gough.

 

[Mamoon]

[MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION]

What is the point of having a good record away from home when you are useless at home?

Gough, Caddick, Hoggard averaged around 30 in England which is clearly not good enough. In comparison, Anderson averages 23 at home. He is a vastly, vastly superior bowler than all three in English conditions, and that is ultimately the most important factor for an English bowler.

As far as away performances are concerned, Caddick and Gough had the good fortune of not playing in India where as Anderson had the wood over a batsman of Tendulkar’s caliber.

Furthermore, Anderson has played three times as many Test matches as those three while they have played comparable number of F/C matches. Longevity needs to be respected and admired when you are comparing two cricketers especially when the player with less number of matches does not have a vastly superior record.

Caddick and Hoggard were nothing more than decent bowlers. Gough was excellent but clearly inferior to Anderson and just below Broad. If you want facts, then it is also a fact that if Gough, Caddick and Hoggard were around today, they would not have been ahead of Anderson and Broad in the pecking order.

I do not wish to accuse you of belittling Anderson and Broad, but you are clearly doing their performances and contributions great disservice by degrading them to the level of Caddick and Hoggard.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Longevity - no, none, Else Walsh is a better bowler than Marshall.

You have put someone with good returns in India and Australia below someone who is no more than a stock bowler there.

Walsh's average is around 4.5 runs per wicket poorer than Marshall's which is why his longevity does not really count. Longevity does matter when you take into account bowlers who have similar averages. Anderson's career since june 3, 2010 - Wickets = 428 Average = 23.82 . That is a world class record and superior to the entire careers of a large number of bowlers. Now we can argue that he is not in the league of Steyn because he hasn't produced as many matchwinning spells away and that's a fair argument but since the comparison is with English bowlers , there is a case for him and Broad being in the GOAT English bowlers' argument purely based on what they've done since 2010.

 

[MenInG]

Stuart Broad was left out of the playing XI for the first Test against West Indies. He was disappointed after being dropped and answered his detractors in brilliant fashion since coming back. He was instrumental in England’s victory in the 2nd Test after picking up 6 wickets. Broad then brought the goods with the bat in the final Test. Broad slammed a fifty off just 33 balls to take England to a respectable total. Broad also made the record for the joint third-fastest Test fifty for England as the hosts ended up making 369 runs in their first innings.

It was just not with the bat that he contributed but Broad also picked up 2 wickets to reduce West Indies to 137-6 before the close of play on Day 2.

Broad revealed after the day’s play he made an experiment to adopt Australian great Shane Warne’s stance at the crease and it paid off on Saturday.

Peter Moores, his former England coach and current mentor at Nottinghamshire, suggested a technical tweak to his game when he was up against fast bowlers and that new approach was in full display at Old Trafford.

Ian Botham is the only England player to have scored quicker test 50s -- having done so off 28 and 31 balls. Broad matched the feats of Allan Lamb and Andrew Flintoff.

“They were quite important runs. It was about changing the momentum of the innings. West Indies bowled beautifully this morning and I think if I had gone out there and tried to play regulation I think there was a ball with my name on it,” Broad told a news conference.

“I tried to up the momentum, hit the bowlers off a length and try and take Kemar (Roach) and Shannon (Gabriel) away from what they’d done so well in the first 40 minutes.

“Tactically it was the right thing to do and something I’ve worked on with Peter Moores at Nottinghamshire. He brought me the example of Shane Warne who didn’t look particularly pretty at times but hit balls in different areas and was really effective, especially in the 2005 Ashes.”

Leg spinner Warne was one of cricket’s greatest bowlers, but he was often a major irritant to opponents with the bat as he notched up 12 test 50s.

Broad said the idea was to stay leg side to eliminate the possibility of being trapped lbw and then back his ability to hit the straight ball.

“There was a little bit of thought process in the madness, but I did enjoy myself out there,” he said.

Broad also contributed with the ball on Saturday to put England in a strong position with the tourists 137-6 when bad light stopped play, trailing by 232 runs.

“We’ve given ourselves a great opportunity. Our number one aim tomorrow has to be to try and bowl them out so that we have the option of a follow-on,” Broad added.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/cric...ick-fire-50/story-5q5QpA5QI0M9wbD8E7jfkL.html

 

[Robert]

So pleased that he seems to have got back to a good mental state with his batting. A big part of Strauss’s team’s success were Broad’s counterattacking runs down the order.

 

[Robert]

[MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION]

What is the point of having a good record away from home when you are useless at home?

Gough, Caddick, Hoggard averaged around 30 in England which is clearly not good enough. In comparison, Anderson averages 23 at home. He is a vastly, vastly superior bowler than all three in English conditions, and that is ultimately the most important factor for an English bowler.

As far as away performances are concerned, Caddick and Gough had the good fortune of not playing in India where as Anderson had the wood over a batsman of Tendulkar’s caliber.

Furthermore, Anderson has played three times as many Test matches as those three while they have played comparable number of F/C matches. Longevity needs to be respected and admired when you are comparing two cricketers especially when the player with less number of matches does not have a vastly superior record.

Caddick and Hoggard were nothing more than decent bowlers. Gough was excellent but clearly inferior to Anderson and just below Broad. If you want facts, then it is also a fact that if Gough, Caddick and Hoggard were around today, they would not have been ahead of Anderson and Broad in the pecking order.

I do not wish to accuse you of belittling Anderson and Broad, but you are clearly doing their performances and contributions great disservice by degrading them to the level of Caddick and Hoggard.

Gough was an all-conditions fast bowler, the only real one since Bob Willis retired. Anderson and Broad are not. They need the conditions to be right to take wickets, else they are reduced to stock bowlers. We have seen this many times.

Please stop confusing your opinions with facts.

 

[Last Monetarist]

Gough was an all-conditions fast bowler, the only real one since Bob Willis retired. Anderson and Broad are not. They need the conditions to be right to take wickets, else they are reduced to stock bowlers. We have seen this many times.

Please stop confusing your opinions with facts.

Again, that all-conditions point is your opinion. Gough was average at home (underscored by a bowling average of 30) and rubbish in South Africa (two appalling tours in 95/96 and 99/00). He was clearly more effective on abrasive, rough surfaces which allowed him to take advantage of reverse swing with that slingy action.

 

[Mamoon]

Gough was an all-conditions fast bowler, the only real one since Bob Willis retired. Anderson and Broad are not. They need the conditions to be right to take wickets, else they are reduced to stock bowlers. We have seen this many times.

Please stop confusing your opinions with facts.

An “all-conditions” bowler who averaged 30 in home conditions?

What stopped Gough from performing like Anderson in England?

You don’t seem to be listening to yourself.

 

[Robert]

Again, that all-conditions point is your opinion. Gough was average at home (underscored by a bowling average of 30) and rubbish in South Africa (two appalling tours in 95/96 and 99/00). He was clearly more effective on abrasive, rough surfaces which allowed him to take advantage of reverse swing with that slingy action.

Let’s dial down hyperbolic language like rubbish and appalling - applying your definition, Wasim was rubbish and appalling against England, but we know he wasn’t - and talk about facts instead.

- All the England bowlers except Cork turned up to that first SA series carrying injuries.
- Gough averaged under 20 in NZ and SL - neither having abrasive rough surfaces. So not “clearly”.

Look at his strike rate home and away. That’s up there with the very best of all time.

 

[Robert]

An “all-conditions” bowler who averaged 30 in home conditions?

What stopped Gough from performing like Anderson in England?

You don’t seem to be listening to yourself.

Strike rate 51 in England against real test batsmen, not the T20 sloggers of today. That’s “performing” in my book.

 

[Last Monetarist]

Let’s dial down hyperbolic language like rubbish and appalling - applying your definition, Wasim was rubbish and appalling against England, but we know he wasn’t - and talk about facts instead.

- All the England bowlers except Cork turned up to that first SA series carrying injuries.
- Gough averaged under 20 in NZ and SL - neither having abrasive rough surfaces. So not “clearly”.

Look at his strike rate home and away. That’s up there with the very best of all time.

My last couple of points on this as we clearly are not going to agree:

1. The pitches on the 97 tour to NZ were flat featherbeds, NZ changed their wickets to become green seamers in the early 2000s

2. Sri Lankan wickets are the very definition of rough, abrasive, flat surfaces, you are not even listening to yourself by now

 

[Robert]

My last couple of points on this as we clearly are not going to agree:

1. The pitches on the 97 tour to NZ were flat featherbeds, NZ changed their wickets to become green seamers in the early 2000s

2. Sri Lankan wickets are the very definition of rough, abrasive, flat surfaces, you are not even listening to yourself by now

Oh for goodness sakes.

I have been following England in NZ since 1984. Kiwi wickets were invariable green seamers until fairly recently when climate change started to kick in.

SL wickets are dusty and crumbly, not rough and abrasive.

 

[Last Monetarist]

Oh for goodness sakes.

I have been following England in NZ since 1984. Kiwi wickets were invariable green seamers until fairly recently when climate change started to kick in.

SL wickets are dusty and crumbly, not rough and abrasive.

Bloody hell, stop digging a hole.

I have been following NZ cricket since the early 90s, so that excuse about age won't wash with me.

NZ wickets in the 90s were invariably slow and flat, arguably deliberately to allow their medium-pacers to be more effective. That series in 97 was played on slow tracks, which caused England to play both Croft and Tufnell. Even the second test at Wellington was on a slowish track, however, the NZ batsmen threw away their wickets on the first day by chasing wide balls outside off-stump to be bowled out for 120 odd.

The point on Sri Lankan wickets is tautological for me. Either way the end effect is to aid fast bowlers that can bowl effective reverse swing.

 

[Mamoon]

Strike rate 51 in England against real test batsmen, not the T20 sloggers of today. That’s “performing” in my book.

Anderson has played 86 Tests in England. He has taken 373 wickets at an average of 23.

And he has bowled to the following assortment of batsmen:

Tendulkar
Lara
Ponting
Kallis
Dravid
Langer
Hayden
Amla
De Villiers
Sangakkara
Mahela
Chanderpaul
G. Smith
S. Smith
Kohli
Williamson
Laxman
Inzamam
Younis
Yousuf
Clarke
Pujara

These are just off the top of my head. I have probably missed out on a few names.

So who are these not “real” Test batsman and mainly T20 sloggers?

That is as impressive a list as the one Gough bowled to in the 90s and early 2000s.

Also bare in mind that tail-enders are better today than they were 15-20 years ago, so it was actually easier for someone like Gough to clean up the tail cheaply.

In spite of that, Anderson has proved himself to be a vastly superior bowler in English conditions.

Your problem is that you have been primed to discredit contemporary cricketers one way or the other, even it means resorting to sweeping, condescending statements that do no hold true on close inspection.

 

[therealAB]

[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION]

I don't think that the argument is that Gough is better in England, even Robert will consider Anderson better in these conditions.

The issue with Anderson is that he has generally ranged from average to dire away from home, and Gough's overseas record is much, much better.
If Anderson had to play his home games in any country, he would be a very average bowler, Terry Alderman like. Gough however has the skills to excel in all conditions

 

[Mamoon]

[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION]

I don't think that the argument is that Gough is better in England, even Robert will consider Anderson better in these conditions.

The issue with Anderson is that he has generally ranged from average to dire away from home, and Gough's overseas record is much, much better.
If Anderson had to play his home games in any country, he would be a very average bowler, Terry Alderman like. Gough however has the skills to excel in all conditions

Robert appears to be arguing against it.

First, he called Gough an all-conditions bowler even though he wasn’t very good in English conditions.

Second, he dismissed Anderson’s horn record because he padded up stats against T20 sloggers and not real Test batsman. That is also a completely ludicrous claim as I showed in my previous post.

The argument that Gough was better than Anderson away from home has merit, but we also need to consider other factors such as Anderson has played a lot more in tougher conditions, Gough never had to bowl to the likes of Tendulkar, Dravid and Laxman in India, and the fact that he had his fair share of stinkers as well.

Besides, I am not sure if doing well away from home is all that significant when you are not that good at home, the place where you are going to play the majority of your matches.

Gough was no McGrath. He was an okayish bowler in England and a good bowler overseas, but Anderson is one of the greatest bowlers ever in terms of bowling in English conditions.

Overall, it is obvious that Anderson is the better bowler and will rank higher in terms of the greatest English bowlers of all time.

Robert is among the very, very few people who would rank Gough above Anderson in the pantheons of English greats, and then he takes his arguments to uncharted levels of ridiculousness by placing the likes of Caddick and Hoggard above Anderson.

 

[Ab Fan]

497 test wickets now, inching closer to 500.

 

[King_Kohli]

Stuart Broad just 3 wickets away from 500 test scalps. Glenn McGrath and Dale Steyn's average even after so many wickets is just fantastic.

 

[King_Kohli]

Got dropped from the 1st test, made his comeback in the 2nd test with 6 wickets. Now in the 3rd test, scored a fifty in the first innings in crucial time, now takes 6/31 to rattle the West Indies. Brilliant for Stuart Broad, excellent player.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Bloody hell, stop digging a hole.

I have been following NZ cricket since the early 90s, so that excuse about age won't wash with me.

NZ wickets in the 90s were invariably slow and flat, arguably deliberately to allow their medium-pacers to be more effective. That series in 97 was played on slow tracks, which caused England to play both Croft and Tufnell. Even the second test at Wellington was on a slowish track, however, the NZ batsmen threw away their wickets on the first day by chasing wide balls outside off-stump to be bowled out for 120 odd.

The point on Sri Lankan wickets is tautological for me. Either way the end effect is to aid fast bowlers that can bowl effective reverse swing.

Also its worth mentioning that some of the tests in Australia in which Gough played had some good juicy pitches for seamers . The ultra flat Aussie pitches were more a 2000's phenomenon and apart from a session or two, NZ pitches have stayed pretty flat most of the time since around 2003/04 as well.

 

[Robert]

[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION]

I don't think that the argument is that Gough is better in England, even Robert will consider Anderson better in these conditions.

The issue with Anderson is that he has generally ranged from average to dire away from home, and Gough's overseas record is much, much better.
If Anderson had to play his home games in any country, he would be a very average bowler, Terry Alderman like. Gough however has the skills to excel in all conditions

A sensible post at last.

At times I despair of this place! I spend years defending Anderson from HTB accusations, and now I'm doing him "great disservice" anyway. He's excellent in helpful conditions, but on a flat wicket he turns into a stock bowler even in England - remember Shai Hope smacking him about on the last Windies tour? Whereas on a flat wicket someone like Gough has the extra mph and lift to shake up the batsman and get wickets.

 

[Robert]

Bloody hell, stop digging a hole.

I have been following NZ cricket since the early 90s, so that excuse about age won't wash with me.

NZ wickets in the 90s were invariably slow and flat, arguably deliberately to allow their medium-pacers to be more effective. That series in 97 was played on slow tracks, which caused England to play both Croft and Tufnell. Even the second test at Wellington was on a slowish track, however, the NZ batsmen threw away their wickets on the first day by chasing wide balls outside off-stump to be bowled out for 120 odd.

The point on Sri Lankan wickets is tautological for me. Either way the end effect is to aid fast bowlers that can bowl effective reverse swing.

Well if they were slow and flat, medium pace would not be effective.

It is more correct to say that NZ wickets have mostly been green seamers which promote medium pace seam bowling of the Snedden and Chatfield ilk.

In 2000 IIRC, there was a drop-in pitch which got easier and easier to bat on, so that Thorpe hit the fastest test double century before immediately being eclipsed by Astle, with good bowlers Gough and Caddick flying into the stands.

If the SL wickets aid fast bowlers bowling reverse swing, why has SL never produced a bowler with those attributes? Malinga was quick but a LO specialist with a moderate test record.

 

[Robert]

[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION]

I don't think that the argument is that Gough is better in England, even Robert will consider Anderson better in these conditions.

The issue with Anderson is that he has generally ranged from average to dire away from home, and Gough's overseas record is much, much better.
If Anderson had to play his home games in any country, he would be a very average bowler, Terry Alderman like. Gough however has the skills to excel in all conditions

Furthermore [MENTION=151648]therealAB[/MENTION], Anderson's home averaged and strike rate have sharply improved in the last five seasons as he has had weak batting lines to bowl at - either with techniques spoiled by T20 or lack of experience in England - only Kohli is a significant player.

 

[therealAB]

Furthermore [MENTION=151648]therealAB[/MENTION], Anderson's home averaged and strike rate have sharply improved in the last five seasons as he has had weak batting lines to bowl at - either with techniques spoiled by T20 or lack of experience in England - only Kohli is a significant player.

I would generally agree, but he is still a very good bowler in the UK, probably a 24 average bowler. He tends to bowl quite a few miracle balls like the one to hope yesterday that would get anybody out. Still obviously a long way from Marshall/McGrath/Hadlee/Lillee/Alderman/Trueman etc as a fast bowler purely in England though

 

[Robert]

Anyway I am pleased that Broady is having such a good match and look forward to him being attack leader for a year or two yet.

 

[Ab Fan]

<B>Anderson since 26 Jul 2010(10 years)</B>

105 tests 424 wickets @ 23.9

Home avg - 21
Away avg - 29
Neutral avg (UAE which is also away)- 20
In Asia-27

<B>Broad since 2013</B>

88 tests 325 wickets @ 26.0

Home avg - 24
Away avg - 28
Neutral(UAE) - 27
In Asia - 31

Given their longevity and workload( about 13 tests per year(88/7) for Broad, it's a given that when you play that many tests you will ultimately break down and that will affect your stats), I would argue that these performances make very strong claims for a great to borderline ATG level bowler and anyone would agree that their away performance or in Asia are far from what you call "stock bowler".

For all the hype that Gough and Caddick and whoever are given here, England would have probably wished to have bowlers like Anderson and Broad who average 23 and 26 at home in that era, they would have atleast won a few series they lost at home.

 

[Zaz]

Broad and Anderson are excellent bowlers particularly at home but considering the likes of trueman, statham, snow, willis, botham, gough caddick, hoggard, harmison etc played for england it is debateable whether they would get into an alltime england 11

 

[Robert]

<B>Anderson since 26 Jul 2010(10 years)</B>

105 tests 424 wickets @ 23.9

Home avg - 21
Away avg - 29
Neutral avg (UAE which is also away)- 20
In Asia-27

<B>Broad since 2013</B>

88 tests 325 wickets @ 26.0

Home avg - 24
Away avg - 28
Neutral(UAE) - 27
In Asia - 31

Given their longevity and workload( about 13 tests per year(88/7) for Broad, it's a given that when you play that many tests you will ultimately break down and that will affect your stats), I would argue that these performances make very strong claims for a great to borderline ATG level bowler and anyone would agree that their away performance or in Asia are far from what you call "stock bowler".

For all the hype that Gough and Caddick and whoever are given here, England would have probably wished to have bowlers like Anderson and Broad who average 23 and 26 at home in that era, they would have atleast won a few series they lost at home.

Firstly, where have I applied hyperbole regarding Gough and Caddick?

Secondly, I don’t believe A&B would have averaged low twenties during the 1990s when test batsmen had tighter defensive techniques and longer concentration, due to less LO cricket.

 

[Ab Fan]

Firstly, where have I applied hyperbole regarding Gough and Caddick?

Secondly, I don’t believe A&B would have averaged low twenties during the 1990s when test batsmen had tighter defensive techniques and longer concentration, due to less LO cricket.

I never referred to anyone in particular. But there is no comparison between bowlers with 500 and 600 wickets at 28 and 26 with 15+ years career to bowlers with 150 and 200 wickets at 27 and 29-30. Any such comparison is hyperbole.

Someone above already listed out the number of batsmen that Anderson and Broad have bowled to, so this defensive technique and long concentration is an irrelevant point now. We can keep doing ifs and buts while comparing across era but will not come to any conclusion on that basis.

Anderson skills with the Duke bowl is up there with the best of all-time, he has bowled many unplayable deliveries throughout his career. I have no doubt that England would have been a better team in 90s than they were if they had A&B playing for them. Some of those home series that England lost at home, they would have won that.

 

[James]

<B>Anderson since 26 Jul 2010(10 years)</B>

105 tests 424 wickets @ 23.9

Home avg - 21
Away avg - 29
Neutral avg (UAE which is also away)- 20
In Asia-27

<B>Broad since 2013</B>

88 tests 325 wickets @ 26.0

Home avg - 24
Away avg - 28
Neutral(UAE) - 27
In Asia - 31

Given their longevity and workload( about 13 tests per year(88/7) for Broad, it's a given that when you play that many tests you will ultimately break down and that will affect your stats), I would argue that these performances make very strong claims for a great to borderline ATG level bowler and anyone would agree that their away performance or in Asia are far from what you call "stock bowler".

For all the hype that Gough and Caddick and whoever are given here, England would have probably wished to have bowlers like Anderson and Broad who average 23 and 26 at home in that era, they would have atleast won a few series they lost at home.

Two very strong records, particularly Anderson’s which is ATG level!

I always knew that Anderson was good in Asia, and mainly India, but I honestly didn’t expect such incredible numbers!

 

[MenInG]

499 for Broad:

Australia - 118
Bangladesh - 8
India - 70
Ireland - 7
New Zealand - 66
Pakistan - 54
South Africa - 75
Sri Lanka - 30
West Indies - 69

 

[HappyWarsFan]

Lol @ the chest thumping after performing vs Windies at home. The English really do love hyping up their players.

 

[Robert]

I never referred to anyone in particular. But there is no comparison between bowlers with 500 and 600 wickets at 28 and 26 with 15+ years career to bowlers with 150 and 200 wickets at 27 and 29-30. Any such comparison is hyperbole.

Someone above already listed out the number of batsmen that Anderson and Broad have bowled to, so this defensive technique and long concentration is an irrelevant point now. We can keep doing ifs and buts while comparing across era but will not come to any conclusion on that basis.

Anderson skills with the Duke bowl is up there with the best of all-time, he has bowled many unplayable deliveries throughout his career. I have no doubt that England would have been a better team in 90s than they were if they had A&B playing for them. Some of those home series that England lost at home, they would have won that.

Sure, but their records weren’t so crash hot when those top batters were still playing. They have got crash hot in the last four years while facing perhaps one WC batter at home in Anderson’s case, and two or three in Broad’s.

Many of the top batters that [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] listed had jobs in CC so they were used to English conditions and facing swing and seam there. Consequently the Frasers, Goughs and Caddick had a harder job over their careers than A&B. In the last few years players are more interested in lucrative T20 league work than getting the CC jobs which would round off their techniques and equip them to face good English seam/swing bowling. If bowlers of the ability of the nineties boys were bowling now, they would average 20 at home over recent seasons too.

 

[Robert]

Two very strong records, particularly Anderson’s which is ATG level!

I always knew that Anderson was good in Asia, and mainly India, but I honestly didn’t expect such incredible numbers!

Because they aren’t correct. He averages 36 in India and a creditable 30 in SL over that period.

 

[Ab Fan]

<B>Because they aren’t correct</B>. He averages 36 in India and a creditable 30 in SL over that period.

How exactly are they incorrect? Averages 20 in UAE, so when you aggregate it's 27.

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...0;spanval1=span;template=results;type=bowling

 

[Zaz]

Theyre 2 fine bowlers But wouldnt make my bowling england x1 From the last 60 years id have

Trueman
Willis
Snow
Botham
Underwood

Bench

Anderson
Statham
Gough

 

[Ab Fan]

Sure, but their records weren’t so crash hot when those top batters were still playing. They have got crash hot in the last four years while facing perhaps one WC batter at home in Anderson’s case, and two or three in Broad’s.

Many of the top batters that [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] listed had jobs in CC so they were used to English conditions and facing swing and seam there. Consequently the Frasers, Goughs and Caddick had a harder job over their careers than A&B. In the last few years players are more interested in lucrative T20 league work than getting the CC jobs which would round off their techniques and equip them to face good English seam/swing bowling. If bowlers of the ability of the nineties boys were bowling now, they would average 20 at home over recent seasons too.

Lol, a lot of factors changes when you bring T20 techniques and other factors into consideration when talking about modern era players. Or else it can be argued that back in 90s, everyone used to tamper with the ball to get that extra advantage, so precisely their stats should only be taken seriously by demeaning it by 3-4 lower. We all know everyone used to do it, ex-cricketers have said it in their interviews.

This no longer happens today and in modern era, everyone takes Mitchell Starc test stats by pinch of salt even though he has taken 4+ WPM which is genuinely brilliant and arguably on par with Windies ATG, Michael Holding who used to bowl to batsmen without helmets, no bouncers rule and with really no major workload.

So, it applies both way, just that you tend to highlight one but ignore the other.

 

[Ab Fan]

Theyre 2 fine bowlers But wouldnt make my bowling england x1 From the last 60 years id have

Trueman
Willis
Snow
Botham
Underwood

Bench

Anderson
Statham
Gough

They are not England's best ever and will most likely not make it to all time England XI but undoubtedly their best bowler since Willis.

 

[MenInG]

Seasoned pacer Stuart Broad has shown that he still has “fire in the belly” to achieve a lot more for England, said former skipper Michael Atherton, asserting that the “champion sportsman” has the potential to claim 600 Test wickets.

After being ignored for the series opener against the West Indies in Southampton, the 34-year-old pacer silenced his critics by putting up scintillating performances in the remaining two Tests. He ended the third day of the series decider with 499 Test wickets, just one short of the coveted 500 mark.

Eng vs WI: West Indies teetering after Broad's show with ball

“The mark of a champion sportsman is not when you get knocked down, but how you bounce back and we’ve seen that in this series with Stuart Broad,” Atherton wrote in a column for ‘Sky Sports’

“When you get left out, that’s when you find out a little bit more about yourself. Some players, when they get to that stage and get left out, they might just say, ‘Well, I’ve done enough with my career’

“But clearly Stuart Broad, with that fire in the belly he showed, has got more to come and he doesn’t just want to get 500 wickets - he wants to get up to 600 as well,” Atherton added.

Broad, who is England’s all-time second highest wicket-taker in the longest format of the game, had minced no word in criticising the decision of leaving him out of the first Test, which the host lost against the West Indies.

But brought back into the side for the remaining two games, Broad went on to claim six wickets in the series-levelling second Test before handing England the advantage with eight wickets in the ongoing final Test.

“After being left out for the first Test at the Ageas Bowl, he had some things to say about it but my, has he backed up those words with actions. When you look at the way he’s bowled in this match, he just looks like he’s going to get a wicket every ball,” Atherton said.

Recently, Broad said he wanted to emulate compatriot James Anderson, who is still going strong at 37. The duo had been leading England’s bowling attack for years and are considered as one of the most successful fast bowling pairs in world cricket.

“Broad made the point that he’s actually quite a bit younger than James Anderson. Of course everyone brackets Broad and Anderson together because they’ve played together for so long,” Artherton said.

“True, he’s not going to get anywhere near Muttiah Muralitharan at 800 but just to be the fourth fast bowler to get 500 wickets would show remarkable longevity and stamina.

“He’s had a body that’s enabled him to do it and central contracts have helped as well - he doesn’t play white-ball and he doesn’t play much county cricket now either,” Atherton said.

https://sportstar.thehindu.com/cric...n-500-wickets-600-wickets/article32202544.ece

 

[Zaz]

They are not England's best ever and will most likely not make it to all time England XI but undoubtedly their best bowler since Willis.

id say bar gough theyre the best england have had in the last 35 years

 

[Mamoon]

They are not England's best ever and will most likely not make it to all time England XI but undoubtedly their best bowler since Willis.

Anderson walks into the all-time England XI because he holds the unique and highly illustrious record of having the most Test wickets in history for a fast bowler. This record trumps most other records and statistics including bowling averages.

Quantity should not trump quality, but you simply cannot ignore ~600 Test wickets at a highly respectable average of 26.

Anderson has unparalleled quantity and also a lot of quality. It is frankly ludicrous to not place him among the top 3 England bowlers of all time.

He has achieved what no other fast bowler in history has, and that alone is more than enough to place him among the elite pantheons of English cricket.

 

[Robert]

How exactly are they incorrect? Averages 20 in UAE, so when you aggregate it's 27.

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...0;spanval1=span;template=results;type=bowling

Oh ok, you counted UAE in {Asia} as well as {neutral}. Anderson has done well in the desert which gives the lie to this myth that he needs cloud cover to take wickets.

 

[Zaz]

Anderson walks into the all-time England XI because he holds the unique and highly illustrious record of having the most Test wickets in history for a fast bowler. This record trumps most other records and statistics including bowling averages.

Quantity should not trump quality, but you simply cannot ignore ~600 Test wickets at a highly respectable average of 26.

Anderson has unparalleled quantity and also a lot of quality. It is frankly ludicrous to not place him among the top 3 England bowlers of all time.

He has achieved what no other fast bowler in history has, and that alone is more than enough to place him among the elite pantheons of English cricket.

Lets not get too carried away Hats off to their fitness but they have been blessed to play for a board which organises a lot and i mean a lot of test cricket, looks after them very well and pays them very well so they dont have to run themselves down playing other formats

If they were born 20 years earlier or in a different cricketing country they wouldnt have had the number of test matches they have or these records They may well be retired from tests and be playing the t20 leagues around the world like many of their counterparts

Theyre certainly excellent bowlers but theyve had a lot of advantages which many other bolwers around the world dont have

 

[Forum363]

Just highlights how criminal it was to leave him out in the first test for Bouncer Specialist Archer. Anderson is probably the only bowler in the world better than Broad in those conditions, and Wood is the fastest in the country (and has performed brilliantly on the last tour) so it made sense to select them. But it was terrible by Stokes and England to leave out Broad and it’s cost them a Test Match. If it rains further tomorrow, the decision may even cost them the trophy.

 

[Ab Fan]

Oh ok, you counted UAE in {Asia} as well as {neutral}. Anderson has done well in the desert which gives the lie to this myth that he needs cloud cover to take wickets.

UAE is not neutral for SENAW. Its just mentioned as neutral in cricinfo statsguru. So, I had to post their stats seperate.

They are home games for Pakistan while away games for the rest.

 

[Ab Fan]

Anderson walks into the all-time England XI because he holds the unique and highly illustrious record of having the most Test wickets in history for a fast bowler. This record trumps most other records and statistics including bowling averages.

Quantity should not trump quality, but you simply cannot ignore ~600 Test wickets at a highly respectable average of 26.

Anderson has unparalleled quantity and also a lot of quality. It is frankly ludicrous to not place him among the top 3 England bowlers of all time.

He has achieved what no other fast bowler in history has, and that alone is more than enough to place him among the elite pantheons of English cricket.

I agree to an extent but some might argue that there are many bowlers out there in past with unprecedented numbers for their respective era and hold a stronger claim to England all-time XI than Anderson would.

 

[Robert]

Lets not get too carried away Hats off to their fitness but they have been blessed to play for a board which organises a lot and i mean a lot of test cricket, looks after them very well and pays them very well so they dont have to run themselves down playing other formats

If they were born 20 years earlier or in a different cricketing country they wouldnt have had the number of test matches they have or these records They may well be retired from tests and be playing the t20 leagues around the world like many of their counterparts

Theyre certainly excellent bowlers but theyve had a lot of advantages which many other bolwers around the world dont have

Plus they would not have had central contracts and therefore would have been breaking down through CC injuries as did nearly all faster bowlers of that era.

They might have played sixty tests and have 200 wickets each, but both were slow starters if you recall so I doubt they would have got that far.

Whereas Fraser, Caddick, Gough, Hoggard and Harmison were all immediately effective in tests.

 

[Junaids]

He’s different - a symptom of having his career in an era in which he plays more overseas Tests than domestic First Class matches.

Let’s be frank: he is another Poor Man’s McGrath - just like Hazlewood and Stuart Clark. Or Shaun Pollock minus the batting.

He’s well-suited to an era in which very few batsmen have the discipline to leave deliveries outside off-stump.

But he would have struggled until around 1987.

 

[aloo paratha]

Lol @ the chest thumping after performing vs Windies at home. The English really do love hyping up their players.

There is no hype. he has 499 test wickets.

 

[MenInG]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-partner="tweetdeck"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">7 bowlers have taken 500 or more Test wickets. Of those 7, only 4 are pace-bowlers:<br><br>Muttiah Muralitharan 800<br>Shane Warne 708<br>Anil Kumble 619<br>James Anderson 589<br>Glenn McGrath 563<br>Courtney Walsh 519<br>Stuart Broad 500<a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Cricket?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Cricket</a></p>— Saj Sadiq (@Saj_PakPassion) <a href="https://twitter.com/Saj_PakPassion/status/1288064221608128512?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 28, 2020</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[MenInG]

Stuart Broad became only the second England bowler to reach 500 Test wickets on the fifth day of the third Test against West Indies at Emirates Old Trafford.

The fast bowler, 34, removed Kraigg Brathwaite to follow team-mate James Anderson in reaching the landmark.

Only six other bowlers in history have taken more wickets than Broad, who is playing in his 140th Test match.

England need to bowl out West Indies on the final day to win the series.

They began the day needing eight wickets to win the three-game series, which has seen Broad roar back to form after he was not selected for the first Test.

Since then, he has taken 15 wickets in two Tests, with potentially more to come as England close in on victory on Tuesday.

"He's a great, not just of English cricket, but of the game," said former England captain Michael Vaughan, who gave Broad his first Test cap against Sri Lanka in 2007.

"He's got 500 wickets, maybe will get to 600 and he has been involved in so many Ashes series wins (four)."

Follow live coverage of England v West Indies - TMS, clips and text
Stuart Broad timeline of Test achievement
Broad trapped Brathwaite lbw to leave West Indies 48-3 in pursuit of a nominal 399 to win the deciding Test with the series level at 1-1.

Anderson also removed Brathwaite, in 2017, to claim his 500th Test wicket.

"Stuart is an absolute credit to himself for the work he's put in the last few years, he is incredible to watch and a real inspiration, not just for the younger members but for me too," said Anderson, who is Test cricket's most successful fast bowler with 589 wickets.

"There's a good chance he'll take more wickets more than me - why can't he play as long as me? He's in good shape and he leads the attack brilliantly and can take as many wickets as he wants."

Leading Test wicket-takers
Bowler Wickets
Table correct as of 12:30 BST on 28 July
Muttiah Muralitharan (Sri Lanka/ICC) 800
Shane Warne (Australia) 708
Anil Kumble (India) 619
James Anderson (England) 589
Glenn McGrath (Australia) 563
Courtney Walsh (West Indies) 519
Stuart Broad (England) 500

Broad, who is the son of former England batter Chris, has taken two Test hat-tricks in his career - against India in 2011 and Sri Lanka in 2014 - but perhaps his most famous spell of bowling was the 8-15 he took to bowl out Australia for 60 at Trent Bridge in 2015.

It's that ability to take clusters of wickets quickly which he is famed for.

"I'm always amazed at how he can just the ball and go on a roll," added Anderson. "I don't feel like I've got that in my game - if I get five wickets it takes me a few days to get there normally!"

Broad has take five wickets in an innings 17 times.

"Just to reflect on this achievement, you think of the long career of Courtney Walsh and he was a tireless bowler," said Test Match Special commentator Daniel Norcross.

"Walsh took 519 wickets spread over quite a few years and he was 38 when he finished. Stuart Broad is only 34."


https://www.bbc.com/sport/cricket/53544455

 

[MenInG]

Stuart Broad says taking his 500th Test wicket felt "amazing" as he reflected on how no longer playing white-ball cricket for England has left him "fresh" and "excited" for the longest form.

The fast bowler dismissed Kraigg Brathwaite to reach the milestone during England's series-winning victory over West Indies in the third #raisethebat Test at Emirates Old Trafford - three years after James Anderson had removed the same batsman to reach 500 Test wickets himself.

Broad - who last played an ODI in February 2016 - spoke to Sky Sports about how "addictive" Test cricket is and how his landmark wicket was made even sweeter by the fact it came in a series victory as England went from 1-0 down to 2-1 winners.

Broad said: "It's special to get the 500, amazing, and what makes it extra special is taking it in a Test match which has led to a win and Test series win. I think you always remember moments as a player when winning games. Winning Test matches is what it's all about.

"I was disappointed when I stopped paying white-ball cricket for England but I think that is paying dividends now," continued Broad, who finished the #raisethebat series with 16 wickets at 10.93 after being omitted from the first Test at The Ageas Bowl.

"I have been fortunate with my injury record and I think that has played a bit part in that.

"I feel fresh and excited every I put the England cap on and get into a Test series. I have also done some technical work that makes me feel in a great rhythm.

"I feel very privileged to play as much as I have in the era I have and played with the players I have played with.

"England have looked after Jimmy [Anderson] and I wonderfully for many years. Would this have been possible in the eighties or nineties? You'd argue not.

"Test cricket at the top level all year round is quite relentless. Fast bowling is hard, Test cricket is hard. We joke about that in the changing room but I think that is why we love it.

"There's something addictive to that hard work you put in away from the game and on match days that lead to Test match wins.

"That's why it's so massively satisfying when you win. It's always a special achievement because you go through massive highs and huge lows."

Broad is just the seventh man to take 500 Test wickets after Anderson, Muttiah Muralitharan, Shane Warne, Anil Kumble, Glenn McGrath and Courtney Walsh.

The seamer's landmark came behind closed doors with fans absent due to the coronavirus pandemic but Broad's father, Chris, was in attendance in his role as match referee.

"Watching [a Sky Sports montage of his career] and looking at the crowds makes you emotional and looking forward to playing in front of crowds again.

"It is a little bit of a shame that after 12, 13 years of playing that my family and friends who have supported me around the world through great days and bad days can't be here to give me a little wave but it was great to have dad here, who looked a bit shy on camera."

Anderson spoke before Broad's 500th wicket about how his fellow seamer could overtake him as England's most prolific bowler in Tests - but Broad says that will be tough with Anderson "still at the peak of his powers".

Broad and England will now take on Pakistan in a three-Test series from next Wednesday and the paceman knows it is unlikely he will play in every match.

"That seems a long way away," added Broad when quizzed about potentially leapfrogging Anderson, who has 589 wickets compared to his own tally of 501.

"Jimmy is still at the peak his powers - he turns 38 soon but is still fit and bowling beautifully with so much control and it is pleasure to be on the field with him. We have enjoyed being back together and it's great it's turned into a Test match win. I think we have a few overs left it in us.

"What a stat that is with Brathwaite being both Jimmy's 500th wicket and mine! Jimmy came to me when we were batting and said 'you know who it is going to be, don't you?'

"I said 'no way, the stars would have to align so much for that to happen!' It was lovely and will be a quiz question in a few years!"

"I can honestly say I have never really set any targets - bowling at Colombo [on my debut] I would have been happy with two!

"Competition keeps everyone performing strongly. It's unrealistic to think all of us will play all three Tests against Pakistan with the workload we've got but we have a real battery of fast bowlers and anyone who comes in can perform."

Broad also praised West Indies - who won the opening Test by four wickets - as the "heroes of the summer" for travelling to England amid the pandemic.

"It would be wrong of me not to say a huge thankyou to the West Indies team for the sacrifice they made coming over here and living in a bio-secure environment for that amount of time. The series wouldn't have been possible without them - they are the heroes of the summer."

https://www.skysports.com/cricket/n...england-test-wicket-in-west-indies-series-win

 

[MenInG]

MANCHESTER, England, July 28 (Reuters) - Stuart Broad says he still feels fresh and is keen to reprise his heroics against West Indies when England return to the test arena next week for a three-match series against Pakistan.

The 34-year-old paceman became only the seventh bowler to reach the milestone of 500 test wickets as he helped England to a resounding 269-run victory over West Indies on Tuesday to win the third test at Old Trafford and clinch the series 2-1.

He took 10 wickets in the test — for only the third time in his career — and was named man of the series despite his surprise omission from the first test in Southampton.

“I’ve never really set any targets and I’ve learned a huge amount through my career, but what is pleasing me at the moment is that I feel so fresh and excited to play the game and I’ve done some technical work that makes me feel in a great rhythm,” he told Sky Sports.

“Now I’m looking forward to a couple of days off outside the bio-secure environment but also looking forward to being back and playing against Pakistan.”

Broad’s 500th wicket came at the start of the day when England rushed to try and dismiss the tourists because the threat of rain hung heavily overhead and there were intermittent stoppages.

He trapped Kraigg Brathwaite leg before wicket for the milestone, matching the achievement of his opening ball partner James Anderson whose 500th test wicket came up at Lord’s three years ago when he dismissed the same batsman.

“What a stat that is,” Broad said. “Jimmy told me in the warm-up, ‘you know who it’s going to be’ and then told me his 500th victim was Brathwaite.

“The stars have to be aligned for that to happen! I think that’s going to be a quiz question for many years to come.”

“When you get a milestone and put in performances, you want them to lead to wins so to get to 500 on a day that we managed to win a test match and a series feels very great, very special,” Broad added.

England meet Pakistan in the first of their three-match series at Old Trafford from Aug. 5-9.

 

[Usman]

Lets not get too carried away Hats off to their fitness but they have been blessed to play for a board which organises a lot and i mean a lot of test cricket, looks after them very well and pays them very well so they dont have to run themselves down playing other formats

If they were born 20 years earlier or in a different cricketing country they wouldnt have had the number of test matches they have or these records They may well be retired from tests and be playing the t20 leagues around the world like many of their counterparts

Theyre certainly excellent bowlers but theyve had a lot of advantages which many other bolwers around the world dont have

Thank you! This post is a masterclass in how to see through hype.

I feel like the other bowlers on the 500 wickets list are there because they were truly spectacular. The English bowlers - particularly Broad - is there through the sheer number of matches he's played. And he's played that many matches for the reasons you've given.

The other element of great fortune for Broad is that English conditions suit fast bowling unlike most others. If he were born in Australia or the sub continent, he may not have even had a career.

 

[MenInG]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">I’m sure everytime I write something about <a href="https://twitter.com/StuartBroad8?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@StuartBroad8</a>, people relate to him getting hit for 6 sixes! Today I request all my fans to applaud what he has achieved! 500 test wickets is no joke-it takes hard work, dedication & determination. Broady you’re a legend! Hats off &#55357;&#56394;&#55356;&#57341;&#55357;&#56908;&#55356;&#57339; <a href="https://t.co/t9LvwEakdT">pic.twitter.com/t9LvwEakdT</a></p>— Yuvraj Singh (@YUVSTRONG12) <a href="https://twitter.com/YUVSTRONG12/status/1288370088223989760?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 29, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[sweep_shot]

I think Broad is the best pacer of all time for England. I put him ahead of Anderson.

 

[Ab Fan]

Broad is 4 years younger than Anderson. I think he will surpass Jimmy because I don't see Jimmy going past the Pakistan series. He should better retire before SL and India away tours.

 

[therealAB]

I think Broad is the best pacer of all time for England. I put him ahead of Anderson.

Trueman?

 

[MenInG]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Congrats on the win & on the 500th wicket too mate and at only 34 years of age - still plenty of years left, 700+ a good chance &#55357;&#56399;&#55356;&#57339;&#55357;&#56399;&#55356;&#57339;&#55357;&#56399;&#55356;&#57339; <a href="https://t.co/imDx7UPbPw">https://t.co/imDx7UPbPw</a></p>— Shane Warne (@ShaneWarne) <a href="https://twitter.com/ShaneWarne/status/1288170431829233667?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 28, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[sweep_shot]

Trueman?

What has he achieved? Broad has 500 wickets.

 

[therealAB]

What has he achieved? Broad has 500 wickets.

World leading wicket taker
Is a genuine ATG with something that sets him apart, apart from pure longevity

 

[tyron_woodley]

World leading wicket taker
Is a genuine ATG with something that sets him apart, apart from pure longevity

please. in an amateur era. broad is the best ever for England.

 

[King_Kohli]

Who has dismissed Steven Smith most in Tests?

Who has dismissed Hashim Amla most?

Who has dismissed AB de Villiers most?

Who has dismissed Michael Clarke most?

Who has dismissed Ross Taylor most and David Warner?

Answer is one man - Stuart Broad

 

[Robert]

What has he achieved? Broad has 500 wickets.

He achieved the world wicket record, averaging 21 at a strike rate under fifty.

If Trueman were bowling today, given a central contract and the number of tests played, and the relative weakness in defence of many current batters, he would have 800 test wickets.

 

[James]

Thank you! This post is a masterclass in how to see through hype.

I feel like the other bowlers on the 500 wickets list are there because they were truly spectacular. The English bowlers - particularly Broad - is there through the sheer number of matches he's played. And he's played that many matches for the reasons you've given.

The other element of great fortune for Broad is that English conditions suit fast bowling unlike most others. If he were born in Australia or the sub continent, he may not have even had a career.

zzzzz.

Just such utter nonsense. Top to bottom.

 

[Usman]

zzzzz.

Just such utter nonsense. Top to bottom.

Really? So a Broad-type bowler 20 years ago in English cricket would have got 500 wickets too? You must believe that he would have got 500 wickets 20 years ago, because I'm obviously talking nonsense when I say he's got that many wickets because of the number of matches England now play.

And a Broad-type bowler playing the majority of his cricket in a country where the ball doesn't move a great deal (Australia, sub-continent etc) would have got 500 wickets?

Even if you believe all the above is wrong, do you seriously believe Broad playing for a non-big 3 country would have had enough matches to get 500 wickets?

 

[therealAB]

please. in an amateur era. broad is the best ever for England.

Again, if you fail to consider earlier era's please call him the best of the last 30 years. Please

 

[therealAB]

zzzzz.

Just such utter nonsense. Top to bottom.

So you believe that he would have taken 500 wickets with a normal (<120) amount of tests.
I feel that you are a Cook > Gavaskar person

 

[therealAB]

Who has dismissed Steven Smith most in Tests?

Who has dismissed Hashim Amla most?

Who has dismissed AB de Villiers most?

Who has dismissed Michael Clarke most?

Who has dismissed Ross Taylor most and David Warner?

Answer is one man - Stuart Broad

Well, if you pick any bowler with that longevity and a decent amount of skill, they would have a lot of batsmen they dismissed the best.
Especially given that any Aus batsmen of this generation would have been dismissed by either Broad or Anderson the most

 

[Robert]

The other element of great fortune for Broad is that English conditions suit fast bowling unlike most others. If he were born in Australia or the sub continent, he may not have even had a career.

English conditions do not suit fast bowling as the wickets are mostly soft. That is why so few genuinely fast bowlers come through. Gough, Harmison and Flintoff all got 200+ test wickets but nobody else after Dilley has been significant since the eighties.

England does not produce wrist spinners for the same reason.

English wickets suit medium pace swing and seam which is why this type proliferates in English cricket.

Broad would have come through in Australia but would have had a Paul Reiffel or Jason Fleming type career.

 

[KP From India]

Hoggard created havok in Mumbai test 2006 against quality middle order.

 

[Ab Fan]

I would say if Broad would have played for some other teams, he would have been at 425 wickets @26 with home average of 23 and away average of 30. Equally impressive.

It's simple that if he played lesser tests, chances of breaking out is lesser. I recall 2013 & 17 Ashes, Broad would have done better if that was three test series. He started off well in 2017 Ashes but given that everyone was poor, he broke down in that series. Jimmy did well only in the pink ball test.

 

[Robert]

I would say if Broad would have played for some other teams, he would have been at 425 wickets @26 with home average of 23 and away average of 30. Equally impressive.

Had he been Australian he would have struggled to break into the side. There is more competition for places and he would be dropped quicker if he had a slump, rather than carrying on until returning to form. He certainly wouldn’t have got in ahead of Johnson and Harris, wouldn’t get the new ball, and might have a Siddle type career.

 

[Ab Fan]

Had he been Australian he would have struggled to break into the side. There is more competition for places and he would be dropped quicker if he had a slump, rather than carrying on until returning to form. He certainly wouldn’t have got in ahead of Johnson and Harris, wouldn’t get the new ball, and might have a Siddle type career.

Yeah but it's a pointless debate.

Had Murali played for Aus or Eng, he won't had a cricketing career.

 

[Usman]

English conditions do not suit fast bowling as the wickets are mostly soft. That is why so few genuinely fast bowlers come through. Gough, Harmison and Flintoff all got 200+ test wickets but nobody else after Dilley has been significant since the eighties.

England does not produce wrist spinners for the same reason.

English wickets suit medium pace swing and seam which is why this type proliferates in English cricket.

Broad would have come through in Australia but would have had a Paul Reiffel or Jason Fleming type career.

You say this as if Broad is an express pace bowler who bucked the trend of the types of bowlers England produces. He is not express pace but is fast medium swing bowler - exactly the type who benefit from English conditions. The implication, that Broad's success has nothing to do with the assistance given by the pitch and conditions, is not even remotely credible.

Broad is essentially someone who pitches the ball up on a full length and waits for conditions to swing and seam the ball. His style of bowling is perfectly suited to English conditions. In Australia or Asia, this type of bowling is a recipe for being hit to the boundary, repeatedly. I just don't think a Broad type bowler would offer much to an Australian or Asian team with the type of bowler he is. And even if he did somehow get into those teams, he never would have played 140 test matches - not only would Broad not have been good enough, but unlike England, the rest of world largely plays much less cricket.

My purpose is not to discredit Broad. He's done well and congratulations to him. But I think everyone has to be looked at in context. Before anyone starts putting Broad in the same category as McGrath, Courtney Walsh and Akram, they need to look at all the circumstances surrounding Broad's 500 wickets.