Where will Arsenal finish in the Premier League 2023/24?

[Firebat]

After bottling last year's title race at the death, when they had led the table for so long, Arsenal went into the summer market and came out with Declan Rice, Kai Havertz, David Raya and Jurrien Timber (who picked up an ACL injury on debut).

There's been a lot of discussion on whether Arsenal have done enough to bridge the gap to City, or even whether other teams like Liverpool, Spurs, Man United, Newcastle, Chelsea etc have moved ahead.

So far Arsenal have not clicked into gear, picking up 10 points from 12 with some unconvincing performances.

The question is: where will Arsenal finish this season? Can they go one step further, are they still just the 2nd best or will they be back to scrapping for top 4?

Vote and discuss.

 

[MenInG]

I feel there is enough in this side to get to the top.

Will not be easy but they just need to get organized, learn from mistakes and hope they are not unlucky with injuries

 

[Extra_Cover]

Arsenal is now easily part of the Big 3 in Premier League (City, Liverpool and Arsenal). They arguably should be finishing in top 3.

Arsenal with their win over Man United last weekend shows exactly the kind of grit needed to steal crucial points. The problem for Arsenal is that City currently is the strongest club in the world. City is unbelievably strong with very strong backup squad too. For Arsenal to win PL in the presence of this City team it would be quite a monumental achievement. I have my hopes with Arsenal to win PL this year but that would mean they have to play out of their skins for the entire length of the tournament.

 

[Amjid Javed]

Arsenal ain't winning no league title. First of all look at the transfer business.

Havertz in from xhaka
Timber in for holding / Tierney
Raya for Turner

So Rice is only addition to so called over depth of squad

In January - Tomiyasu (Asia cup), Partey and elneny (Afcons) will be gone in January for a month.

So squad is again short defensively

Saliba, Gabriel, kiwor, Zinchenko, Tomiyasu, White are the defensive options left now, Tomiyasu and Zinchenko are injury liabilities.

Timber is out from pretty much most of season and Partey will be out for a whole so team is already stretched.

Defensively there has been no improvement last season team conceded 40+ goals and this season has started in same poor fashion. 4 clean sheets in last 27 home PL games that ain't winning you a title. Gifting cheap goals game after game.

Also there is the mental block vs man city, 12 PL games in a row is pathetic to say the least and Pep just tactically schools Fraudeta every time he plays them.

Arsenal will have to play their strongest line up as well in CL which will put a strain on squad. Fraudeta has already shown he can't rotate effectively in all competitions over last 3 seasons, throwing away cups in embarrassing fashion.

City have increased the quality gap since last season and are already off to a flyer.

The biggest factor will be the end of season fixtures. Arsenal have to go to Man City, brighton, spurs and man united in last 9 games. Fraudeta has shown he can't rotate or manage a squad effectively at pressure end of season, this season will be more even more evidence of that with fixtures Arsenal have. Man city in comparison have an easy run in their last 9 games.

Arsenal's (last 9 games)

Man City (a)

April

2: Luton (h)

6: Brighton (a)

13: Aston Villa (h)

20: Wolves (a)

27: Tottenham (a)

May

4: Bournemouth (h)

11: Manchester United (a)

19: Everton (h)

No title for Arsenal and probably a trophyless season, they ain't winning the CL and have a tough league Cup game vs Brentford.

Fraudeta fan boys are in for a seriously reality check this season and I'm sure new excuses will be rolled out.

Liverpool will be Man city's main challengers this season.

 

[KingKhanWC]

There is no chance of Arsenal winning the title. Scraped through the 4 matches so far. Once Dec, Jan arrives, the injuries will pile up, the squad isnt simply good enough to end with 90 points which would be required to beat City.

3rd only because the others arent too great either.

 

[Amjid Javed]

Seems like one of the "positive" I will back my fraudeta and Arsenal brigade has given up already. Oh and its no mamoon shock horror, so in the "pre-season" prediction thread they were giving it large how Arsenal's squad has improved and that City were weaker.




So from saying Arsenal are going to win it to 2nd in space of 4 games.

Reality has sunk it looks like

 

[Amjid Javed]

There is no chance of Arsenal winning the title. Scraped through the 4 matches so far. Once Dec, Jan arrives, the injuries will pile up, the squad isnt simply good enough to end with 90 points which would be required to beat City.

3rd only because the others arent too great either.

Liverpool will finish 2nd, but City will win league by 9-10 points. Can't see Liverpool maybe getting 80 points, but won't get 90.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Liverpool will finish 2nd, but City will win league by 9-10 points. Can't see Liverpool maybe getting 80 points, but won't get 90.

Gomez and Matip played superbly v Villa, if we can keep our defence in good form, we can stick close to them but yes ,they will likey run away with it towards the end.

The bookies also have City, LFC and Arsenal in that order.

 

[Amjid Javed]

Gomez and Matip played superbly v Villa, if we can keep our defence in good form, we can stick close to them but yes ,they will likey run away with it towards the end.

The bookies also have City, LFC and Arsenal in that order.

Liverpools run in towards end of season isn't to tough, similar to Man City, with vast majority of games that you could win. Just depends if you can avoid injuries and stick with City until that point.

 

[Saj]

I think it'll be second again behind Man City.

 

[Firebat]

Seems like one of the "positive" I will back my fraudeta and Arsenal brigade has given up already. Oh and its no mamoon shock horror, so in the "pre-season" prediction thread they were giving it large how Arsenal's squad has improved and that City were weaker.

So from saying Arsenal are going to win it to 2nd in space of 4 games.

Reality has sunk it looks like

I made an already hopeful and unlikely prediction, as I said in my original post, and now that Timber tore his ACL in literally the first game, I'm suddenly less hopeful Yes shock horror.

Speaking of giving it large, I wonder when did the reality sink for you last year that Arsenal were title challengers, after you had given it large all summer before that we would never get as good a chance to get top 4 and will finish 5th?

Did Ghostdegaard's quality sink in after he equalled the non-penalty goal record for a PL midfielder and made the PFA Team of the Year, after you had given it large for a year about how terrible he is and how he can't score?

Did Rice being an Arsenal player sink in after that last minute goal on Sunday, after you'd given it large all summer that he's going to City and Edu ain't gonna secure him? I could go on and on and on, these are just the ones off the top of my head.

Mamoon isn't here, so there is quite literally nobody on this forum taking these predictions and being correct about everything as seriously as you, that you have to mention me and call me out in every other post when I've never done the same to you. Perhaps still bitter from how badly our summer 2021 debates aged, don't worry mate we'll sweep it under the rug and move forward. No one gives it large except you, we're all happy to be right or wrong.

Anyway, back on topic. You've had multiple posts here, including your customary rant on fraudteta fanboys, yet puzzlingly haven't answered the question nor cast a vote Reluctant to double down on Arsenal finishing 4th behind United? Looks like reality has sunk in faster than the Titanic Instead of mentioning City every post since we're not in the title picture, let's get a Man United fixture breakdown analysis to see at which point they take an unassailable lead over us!

Bring yourself down a peg or two, and don't be shy to cast a vote just because I made them public! I indulged just this once but I won't call them out again don't worry, as you rightly said in the other thread it's all a bit of fun mate

 

[Amjid Javed]

I made an already hopeful and unlikely prediction, as I said in my original post, and now that Timber tore his ACL in literally the first game, I'm suddenly less hopeful Yes shock horror.

Speaking of giving it large, I wonder when did the reality sink for you last year that Arsenal were title challengers, after you had given it large all summer before that we would never get as good a chance to get top 4 and will finish 5th?

Did Ghostdegaard's quality sink in after he equalled the non-penalty goal record for a PL midfielder and made the PFA Team of the Year, after you had given it large for a year about how terrible he is and how he can't score?

Did Rice being an Arsenal player sink in after that last minute goal on Sunday, after you'd given it large all summer that he's going to City and Edu ain't gonna secure him? I could go on and on and on, these are just the ones off the top of my head.

Mamoon isn't here, so there is quite literally nobody on this forum taking these predictions and being correct about everything as seriously as you, that you have to mention me and call me out in every other post when I've never done the same to you. Perhaps still bitter from how badly our summer 2021 debates aged, don't worry mate we'll sweep it under the rug and move forward. No one gives it large except you, we're all happy to be right or wrong.

Anyway, back on topic. You've had multiple posts here, including your customary rant on fraudteta fanboys, yet puzzlingly haven't answered the question nor cast a vote Reluctant to double down on Arsenal finishing 4th behind United? Looks like reality has sunk in faster than the Titanic Instead of mentioning City every post since we're not in the title picture, let's get a Man United fixture breakdown analysis to see at which point they take an unassailable lead over us!

Bring yourself down a peg or two, and don't be shy to cast a vote just because I made them public! I indulged just this once but I won't call them out again don't worry, as you rightly said in the other thread it's all a bit of fun mate

Arsenal were title challengers? What was the end result a trophyless season. No one cares who finished 2nd in the league apart from loser fans like immy and mamoon who like to cap and twerk for mediocrity.

Yeah I said oddegard output was poor and at the time it was. He finally got some end product. He still dissapeared at pressure end of season. Cheerleading at crowd and team huddles after every goal conceded was sign of cheer leader captain. Proper captains lead there team over the line.

So basically Timbers injury is difference between man city and Arsenal winning league this season is it?

 

[MenInG]

AJ we are awaiting your vote on this poll.

 

[Firebat]

So basically Timbers injury is difference between man city and Arsenal winning league this season is it?

Haha, this is your takeaway from my post? Doesn't read the post, misses the point by a country mile as per. At least we know which new lie you'll parrot all season about my views.

Still giving it large about my votes and predictions, when's yours coming again? 3-5 business days? And when you select 4th, we'd all appreciate that Man United fixture breakdown since these are so serious, reality hasn't sunk in fully for me yet.

Get those votes in folks! @topspin @Rana @IMMY69 @Iqbal'sh @Rizzy1

 

[Amjid Javed]

AJ we are awaiting your vote on this poll.

Everyone made their pre-season predictions, so not sure why another thread to vote where Arsenal will finish was needed. In addition there is already an Arsenal season thread.

I'm not going to make a pre-season prediction and then another one 4 games in, that's just something that Mamoon and others will do.

Arsenal are unfortunately not winning the title this season. When uve supported the club for over 35+ years you know and sense when your team is capable of doing so. This team does not have the mental capability, the mentality or the manager to win the title.

The fact he's fumbled pressure end of season 3 years running and had made same mistakes and not learnt. City are that good you can't afford minor mistakes nor can you afford to drop points in consecutive games.

Arteta hasn't fixed either issue, not a single "positive brigade" can even counter that fact or prove it otherwise.

Go back and look at Arsenal's title wins and look at back end of season performances

88/89 - last 10 games (won 6, drawn 3, lost 1)
90/91 after losing to Chelsea in Feb - (won 8, drawn 5) - won title with game to spare
97/98 - won 10 games in a row at back end of season and won title 2 games to spare ( also 13 wins from 14 at back end of season) up to the Everton game.
01/02 - won 13 games in row at end of season (won 15 out of last 16 games, 1 draw)
03/04 - Arsenal won 11 (including 9 in a row), drawn 2 going into spurs game where they won title with 5 games left.

This Arsenal team has shown they can NOT do this "at back end of the season" .

Again have a look at last 9 fixtures and is any fan With a sense of reality telling me that the club is going to buck its April time end of season collapse again?

 

[Amjid Javed]

Haha, this is your takeaway from my post? Doesn't read the post, misses the point by a country mile as per. At least we know which new lie you'll parrot all season about my views.

Still giving it large about my votes and predictions, when's yours coming again? 3-5 business days? And when you select 4th, we'd all appreciate that Man United fixture breakdown since these are so serious, reality hasn't sunk in fully for me yet.

Get those votes in folks! @topspin @Rana @IMMY69 @Iqbal'sh @Rizzy1

I made my prediction pre-season it's done, oh wait are you going to create a thread to vote after a set number of games through rest of the season?

What's point in making a prediction before season starts and then after 4 games?

Sort of nonsense approach mamoon takes.

Is there going to be another vote after 8 or 10 games? Mid season? One in April?

I don't need to select an "option" my prediction was made before season started. I'm not doing a mamoon flip flop all way through the season.

 

[Firebat]

I made my prediction pre-season it's done, oh wait are you going to create a thread to vote after a set number of games through rest of the season?

What's point in making a prediction before season starts and then after 4 games?

Sort of nonsense approach mamoon takes.

Is there going to be another vote after 8 or 10 games? Mid season? One in April?

I don't need to select an "option" my prediction was made before season started. I'm not doing a mamoon flip flop all way through the season.

You've been here since 2004 bro. We are always creating more polls and threads throughout the season, in fact you did one of them last season. Most people don't mind nor care because they don't take it this seriously.

Anyway, good to know you stand by your prediction unlike me, respect sir

 

[Firebat]

Everyone made their pre-season predictions, so not sure why another thread to vote where Arsenal will finish was needed. In addition there is already an Arsenal season thread.

I'm not going to make a pre-season prediction and then another one 4 games in, that's just something that Mamoon and others will do.

Arsenal are unfortunately not winning the title this season. When uve supported the club for over 35+ years you know and sense when your team is capable of doing so. This team does not have the mental capability, the mentality or the manager to win the title.

The fact he's fumbled pressure end of season 3 years running and had made same mistakes and not learnt. City are that good you can't afford minor mistakes nor can you afford to drop points in consecutive games.

Arteta hasn't fixed either issue, not a single "positive brigade" can even counter that fact or prove it otherwise.

Go back and look at Arsenal's title wins and look at back end of season performances

88/89 - last 10 games (won 6, drawn 3, lost 1)
90/91 after losing to Chelsea in Feb - (won 8, drawn 5) - won title with game to spare
97/98 - won 10 games in a row at back end of season and won title 2 games to spare ( also 13 wins from 14 at back end of season) up to the Everton game.
01/02 - won 13 games in row at end of season (won 15 out of last 16 games, 1 draw)
03/04 - Arsenal won 11 (including 9 in a row), drawn 2 going into spurs game where they won title with 5 games left.

This Arsenal team has shown they can NOT do this "at back end of the season" .

Again have a look at last 9 fixtures and is any fan With a sense of reality telling me that the club is going to buck its April time end of season collapse again?

Very true, Arsenal haven't shown yet that they can finish strongly at the pressure end of the season. I think there's a few different factors behind that, not just the manager, but there we go.

So we know that it's unlikely we can finish the season strong enough to win the title this year. What I want to know is, where does 4th come in? Why keep discussing the title race when you think we're scrapping for 4th? Isn't that overly pessimistic?

 

[Amjid Javed]

Very true, Arsenal haven't shown yet that they can finish strongly at the pressure end of the season. I think there's a few different factors behind that, not just the manager, but there we go.

So we know that it's unlikely we can finish the season strong enough to win the title this year. What I want to know is, where does 4th come in? Why keep discussing the title race when you think we're scrapping for 4th? Isn't that overly pessimistic?

The reason I chose 4th before season started was for following reasons. (My opinion)

- Man City will win the league ( no one has closed the gap on them)
- Liverpool were fixing their midfield, which ultimately helps the balance of the team which means, with their Attack I see them finishing 2nd. Also they will likely rest players for europa league group stages so they are fresh for PL
- Arsenal transfer interms of depth has not really improved sufficiently to fight on all 4 fronts.
- we are in the CL, so we ain't going to be able to put 2nd string teams out in Europe. That will put a strain on squad and I believe the PL form will suffer at somepoint because of it. Your all ready seeing Saka looking burnt out. I mentioned before season started we needed cover
- In addition we have players going to Afcon (Partey / elneny) and Asia cup (Tomiyasu) in January, so again we will be left with less option which will impact the PL games I believe.
- last 2 seasons Arsenal have had no Europe and then the europa league and the squad had still fallen off a cliff at end of season with its form.
- Arteta has shown he can't rotate a team effectively, every time he had points get dropped etc.. so yeah I didn't think we would finish top 2.

For me it was a toss up between 3rd and 4th between Arsenal and united, I went with united 3rd as I thought they would improve on last season.

in regard to "factors" of why team keeps collapsing each season.

That's on the manager and his poor squad and in game management at pressure end of season.

Also if the club had accountability fir failure in EL, bottling top 4 and the title the mentality would improve. Instead the club brushes it under the carpet and dresses it up as "progress,"

That weak mentality is why we ain't winning PL or CL this season

 

[Amjid Javed]

You've been here since 2004 bro. We are always creating more polls and threads throughout the season, in fact you did one of them last season. Most people don't mind nor care because they don't take it this seriously.

Anyway, good to know you stand by your prediction unlike me, respect sir

I wanted to change My prediction, as did @James - but I said No

Last season I said Liverpool would win title, I was wrong

I'd rather have a prediction then change it. Every week like mamoon did which is a waste of time.

 

[Rizzy1]

I think this City team is just to good unfortunately. We are well capable of getting 85 points ish but issue is Man City will probably hit 90+ , so have to be realistic and say it will unfortunately be 2nd again. Easy to say if Arsenal get Rice injured etc we are in trouble but if City have Haaland injured I think could make it more interesting. Before anyone says as talented as he is Alvarez is no Haaland.
So yeah 2nd unless Peps doctors go missing and make it interesting.

We are clearly best of the rest

Side note - if we are in the mix come January and strengthen then would be good to re-assess this poll.

A good Champions League run is a must!

 

[Rizzy1]

Wait hold on did AJ predict 4th for Arsenal? WOW. After watching how United played at the end of the season and the shambles of players they have, you thought they would finish above Arsenal? I find that staggering.
What signings did you think them or their fraud manager would make after looking at his previous 2 windows that would make them significantly better than Arsenal?

 

[IMMY69]

I've put my vote in!

Always back your team, no matter what.

No one expected us to lead the table for all but the last few games of last season. Some didn't even exorct us to make top four.

City are a great team and yes they have a great manager, but sometimes you get that luck and then anything can happen.

Also, a very big positive is that, even though we haven't been great so far, we've still managed to pick up 10 points out of 12.

Much tougher tests await, buts it's one game at a time...

 

[IMMY69]

Also, on a side note, don't ever read too much into fixture schedules and run in's.

In August last year I said we could be out of it come October but look how that turned out.

Big teams lose or draw against smaller teams... it's what makes the game so enthralling. So, like I said above, take one game at a time.

 

[topspin]

Haha, this is your takeaway from my post? Doesn't read the post, misses the point by a country mile as per. At least we know which new lie you'll parrot all season about my views.

Still giving it large about my votes and predictions, when's yours coming again? 3-5 business days? And when you select 4th, we'd all appreciate that Man United fixture breakdown since these are so serious, reality hasn't sunk in fully for me yet.

Get those votes in folks! @topspin @Rana @IMMY69 @Iqbal'sh @Rizzy1

Before the start of the season, I predicted Arsenal would finish 2nd. I felt we lacked players in a few positions including RW, CAM and a FW.

Signing Havertz was a terrible decision. It was time for Xhaka to go but he's certainly not inferior to the German.

I think Timber's injury is huge.Zinchenko is poor and Tomiyasu is injury prone. Also, now Tierney is on loan which is criminal as he's far better than these two at LB. I hate the way he's been treated.

Due to the problems we have at LB, I'm gonna change my prediction from 2nd to 3rd.

 

[Amjid Javed]

Before the start of the season, I predicted Arsenal would finish 2nd. I felt we lacked players in a few positions including RW, CAM and a FW.

Signing Havertz was a terrible decision. It was time for Xhaka to go but he's certainly not inferior to the German.

I think Timber's injury is huge.Zinchenko is poor and Tomiyasu is injury prone. Also, now Tierney is on loan which is criminal as he's far better than these two at LB. I hate the way he's been treated.

Due to the problems we have at LB, I'm gonna change my prediction from 2nd to 3rd.

You also forgot Partey is out for at least 6 weeks which puts strain on rest of midfield and we will playing 2 games a week and will have to play strongest side.

Also partey, elneny and tomiyassu will be gone in January for a month at Afcons and Asia cup respectively. To many of fan base don't even realize things like this and how it will impact the team.

Ateast you've used a sensible view.

 

[topspin]

You also forgot Partey is out for at least 6 weeks which puts strain on rest of midfield and we will playing 2 games a week and will have to play strongest side.

Also partey, elneny and tomiyassu will be gone in January for a month at Afcons and Asia cup respectively. To many of fan base don't even realize things like this and how it will impact the team.

Ateast you've used a sensible view.

Unfortunately we're always going to have this problem with Partey as he's simply injury prone, also at pivotal moments of a match and in crucial stages of the season, I don't trust him. Not only is injury prone but also he's not mentally built like Declan Rice.

Arteta was stupid to try him at RB. His role in the team should be merely to deputise Declan Rice.

I'm glad he was injured before the Man U game, can you imagine Rashford vs Partey . The Man U winger would put him in a burger bun but I would like to think Arteta would've given up this experiment with him at RB even if he was fully fit.

 

[Amjid Javed]

To add to above their are 2 international breaks so the likes of Rice, saka will be playing most of games for England and then playing PL, CL pretty much every week. In case of Rice with partey injured, Arsenal now can't afford a Rice injury or suspension during next 2 months

Other wise it will be jorghino, havertz and oddegard in midfield

 

[Amjid Javed]

Unfortunately we're always going to have this problem with Partey as he's simply injury prone, also at pivotal moments of a match and in crucial stages of the season, I don't trust him. He's not mentally built like Declan Rice.

Arteta was stupid to try him at RB. His role in the team should be merely to deputise Declan Rice.

I'm glad he was injured before the Man U game, can you imagine Rashford vs Partey . The Man U winger would put him in a burger bun.

Pushing Partey physically with stupid demands of RB im not surprised he got injured. A top quality midfielder will need to be signed in January or next summer and partey phased out.

Jorginho should play vs everton instead of havertz, as we can't afford a weak midfield against a physical Everton team which had beaten us 5 times in last 7 visits to goodison Park.

 

[topspin]

To add to above their are 2 international breaks so the likes of Rice, saka will be playing most of games for England and then playing PL, CL pretty much every week. In case of Rice with partey injured, Arsenal now can't afford a Rice injury or suspension during next 2 months

Other wise it will be jorghino, havertz and oddegard in midfield

For a 3rd choice DM, Jorgino is an asset. The problem is Havertz. Any one of Trossard, Vieira, ESR, Nelson, Zinchenko can fill his left CAM role in the side better than him.

 

[Amjid Javed]

For a 3rd choice DM, Jorgino is an asset. The problem is Havertz. Any one of Trossard, Vieira, ESR, Nelson, Zinchenko can fill his left CAM role in the side better than him.

Vieira has done well as sub, but don't think he's that quality to be starting games. Also Everton away is not the game to be playing two 8s in Vieira and oddegard who have zero physical presence. Everton literally have bullied our midfield physically in last 3 games at goodison. Playing Rice and Jorginho would give Arsenal decent physicality and control.

ESR ain't getting no game time, Arteta has kept him at club but then has no interest in developing him or giving him sufficient game time. Will just end up another Balagun situation. If I was ESR and when he was fit he scored 10+ goals in PL season and you see losers like havertz playing ahead of you just shows how poorly squad is managed.

Trossard was outstanding when he signed 1 goal, 9 assists and yet didn't see much game time after being player of month in march

Clearly Arteta is only person who seems to think Eddie and havertz are some sort of elite footballers and his other pet favourite crychenko. The guy who got nutmeg in at least 3 big games last season which lead to goals conceded.

 

[Firebat]

Before the start of the season, I predicted Arsenal would finish 2nd. I felt we lacked players in a few positions including RW, CAM and a FW.

Signing Havertz was a terrible decision. It was time for Xhaka to go but he's certainly not inferior to the German.

I think Timber's injury is huge.Zinchenko is poor and Tomiyasu is injury prone. Also, now Tierney is on loan which is criminal as he's far better than these two at LB. I hate the way he's been treated.

Due to the problems we have at LB, I'm gonna change my prediction from 2nd to 3rd.

Zinchenko's role is underrated. Arsenal's philosophy is to dominate the ball and pitch (play the whole game in their half), which limits the chances the opposition can score from. Attack is the best form of defence. The same idea City and Liverpool have, as well as the rest of the league these days. For us, it starts with Zinchenko helping to dominate the midfield, letting another player (usually Xhaka) push up to join the attack. It also confuses the opposition because it's hard to set your team up defensively for a roaming, passing LB who's position cannot be accounted for.

This idea works, and Zinchenko has been crucial to it. It's no secret we looked way more fluent against Fulham when he came on. It's also a big part of the reason we made the jump from 5th to title challengers. We actually concede the least amount of chances and quality of chances in the league behind City. Our downfall comes from silly things like individual errors, loss of concentration, set pieces etc, mistakes that prime VVD, Dias, Stones don't make.

When the team has to buckle down in the lion's den, they stay focused which gives us the best away defensive record in the league. But at home they get too relaxed after long spells of domination and concede from few chances.

Even though it worked, Timber was going to make it work better because he offered the same things as Zinchenko but can also defend. Partey at RB is only a plan C long term, he's never really going to play there if Timber and Zinny are both fit. It certainly has nothing to do with changing the system for Havertz.

This system put us in a title race last year, I'm confident that with a better defensive screen like Rice, it'll do it again this year, but we still lack the extra 10% to get over the line. When Timber returns in March to take Zinchenko's spot, it could add a big boost to the run-in.

As for Tierney, I loved him and he was a cornerstone of Arteta's side for 2 years, but the requirements changed and he's too good a player to be sitting on the bench. These things happen all the time, not a big deal. Kieran himself was injury prone, he got injured at a crucial time in our top 4 race that we bottled soon after.

 

[Firebat]

I think this City team is just to good unfortunately. We are well capable of getting 85 points ish but issue is Man City will probably hit 90+ , so have to be realistic and say it will unfortunately be 2nd again. Easy to say if Arsenal get Rice injured etc we are in trouble but if City have Haaland injured I think could make it more interesting. Before anyone says as talented as he is Alvarez is no Haaland.
So yeah 2nd unless Peps doctors go missing and make it interesting.

We are clearly best of the rest

Side note - if we are in the mix come January and strengthen then would be good to re-assess this poll.

A good Champions League run is a must!

I agree with all of this - we're best of the rest, but Liverpool very close behind.

Players like Rice and Timber have perfect injury records, a lot better than Haaland's, it's impossible to account for serious injuries to them, just dumb luck. It's the case for most teams - if a player like Rodri randomly gets injured for City, Phillips will have to fill his shoes, who's no better than Jorginho really, not even mentioning Partey or Rice.

 

[Amjid Javed]

Difference between City and Arsenal defensively is they have recruited better quality defenders. They can also defend which is the key thing as well.

In addition there have 3 key strengthens to playing in a Pep system

1) Good in one vs one duals, with City having most of the ball, they know they could be countered so they ensure they defenders they pick are good in one vs one situations.

2) positional awareness - being intelligent enough to know the attackers strengths and weakness and which areas to try and keep attackers in to limit damage that can be caused

3) a decent amount of pace, so that they can recover in 1 vs 1 duals

You look at players like Ake, akanji etc.. these guys aren't world class but they have the profile to do the 3 key things needed in a Pep defence. This is why the compliment Diaz, Stones and walker well.

In Arsenal team only saliba and Gabriel have these type of qualities. Zinchenko can't defend. Kiwor is positional poor and in 1 vs 1 duals. Whilst white was really good at RB last season his positional defending is poor (the 2 rashford goals vs Arsenal in last 2 seasons) prime example of not knowing an attackers strengths and weakness. Tomiyasu is average at best in playing the role required in a possession based team which needs defenders good at covering counter attacks.

Arteta has has plenty of time to address this.

The so called "extra man" In midfield so there is more control, what's point having all of the ball if it's slow and passive. Look at how fluid Arsensl were in 1st half of last season is because they played more high risk passes trying to create chances when teams would try and press. Arsenal would then press in packs to win the ball back if a pass went wrong. This then left the team exposed to counter espcially on left side as crychenko can't defend and is poor in one ve one duals.

To compensate that Arsenal are being safety 1st in possession which means less creativity, because they are still scared of being countered. Simply solution get in better defenders in 1 vs 1 duals and then the chances of being counter is reduced. He's had 3.5 years to get recruitment right, do he gets no sympathy at all. No other manager has had such a luxury of been given everything they want over 3.5 and in return failed to deliver in last 3 yearss

Kiwior, Zinchenko, Tomiyasu are not good enough defensively for Artetas system requirements. (Yeah this is why he signed timber)

Also there is no ruthless streak or hunger in this defence to keep cleansheeets etc.. look at number of sloppy or weak goal we conceded and that's a mentality thing.

3.5 seasons in charge and goals conceded is pretty much been around the same mark and we supposedly have "better defenders".

Arteta stubbornly will just keep playing a certain way just so his ego gets massaged at trying to prove people wrong. This is why when Arsensl drop points it's usually I'm clumps of games together. Every player has to play a certain way no matter what.

Pep does what he needs to get games won, rather then having his ego massaged. This is why we end up seeing Arsenal team looking burnt out come march etc.. and bench options looking under cooked.

Arsenal will conceded around 40 goals again this season in PL and no title is coming with that.

Pretty much similar to how brendon Rogers was incapable of getting his team to defend when he was Liverpool manager.

 

[topspin]

Vieira has done well as sub, but don't think he's that quality to be starting games. Also Everton away is not the game to be playing two 8s in Vieira and oddegard who have zero physical presence. Everton literally have bullied our midfield physically in last 3 games at goodison. Playing Rice and Jorginho would give Arsenal decent physicality and control.

ESR ain't getting no game time, Arteta has kept him at club but then has no interest in developing him or giving him sufficient game time. Will just end up another Balagun situation. If I was ESR and when he was fit he scored 10+ goals in PL season and you see losers like havertz playing ahead of you just shows how poorly squad is managed.

Trossard was outstanding when he signed 1 goal, 9 assists and yet didn't see much game time after being player of month in march

Clearly Arteta is only person who seems to think Eddie and havertz are some sort of elite footballers and his other pet favourite crychenko. The guy who got nutmeg in at least 3 big games last season which lead to goals conceded.

Totally agree on your view regarding the non-selection of Vieira against Everton. Him and Odegaard would get bullied in midfield. They're both physically very weak. Odegaard worries me more because he has no self-belief in a 1v1 duel.

 

[topspin]

Zinchenko's role is underrated. Arsenal's philosophy is to dominate the ball and pitch (play the whole game in their half), which limits the chances the opposition can score from. Attack is the best form of defence. The same idea City and Liverpool have, as well as the rest of the league these days. For us, it starts with Zinchenko helping to dominate the midfield, letting another player (usually Xhaka) push up to join the attack. It also confuses the opposition because it's hard to set your team up defensively for a roaming, passing LB who's position cannot be accounted for.

This idea works, and Zinchenko has been crucial to it. It's no secret we looked way more fluent against Fulham when he came on. It's also a big part of the reason we made the jump from 5th to title challengers. We actually concede the least amount of chances and quality of chances in the league behind City. Our downfall comes from silly things like individual errors, loss of concentration, set pieces etc, mistakes that prime VVD, Dias, Stones don't make.

When the team has to buckle down in the lion's den, they stay focused which gives us the best away defensive record in the league. But at home they get too relaxed after long spells of domination and concede from few chances.

Even though it worked, Timber was going to make it work better because he offered the same things as Zinchenko but can also defend. Partey at RB is only a plan C long term, he's never really going to play there if Timber and Zinny are both fit. It certainly has nothing to do with changing the system for Havertz.

This system put us in a title race last year, I'm confident that with a better defensive screen like Rice, it'll do it again this year, but we still lack the extra 10% to get over the line. When Timber returns in March to take Zinchenko's spot, it could add a big boost to the run-in.

As for Tierney, I loved him and he was a cornerstone of Arteta's side for 2 years, but the requirements changed and he's too good a player to be sitting on the bench. These things happen all the time, not a big deal. Kieran himself was injury prone, he got injured at a crucial time in our top 4 race that we bottled soon after.

Zinchenko's link up play is good. I agree with you on this part however he is one of the worst defenders (if not the worst) I've seen play for a big club at LB.

Mamoon, used to say TAA does the same job at Liverpool and it worked for Klopp's side however TAA's defending isn't as anywhere near as bad. Also, he's a far bigger asset because he can score goals and is always coming up with a good number of assists. Also defensively, he's not as slow as Zinchenko and has a much bigger physical presence.

Zinchenko leaves Arsenal exposed and is it worth it? I don't think it is because he's nowhere near as good as TAA when linking up play.

Arteta is playing Zinchenko at LB for one sole reason because Pep experimented with it. The Ukrainian is a natural left CAM. You won't see him play LB against England this weekend.

 

[Amjid Javed]

Zinchenko's link up play is good. I agree with you on this part however he is one of the worst defenders (if not the worst) I've seen play for a big club at LB.

Mamoon, used to say TAA does the same job at Liverpool and it worked for Klopp's side however TAA's defending isn't as anywhere near as bad. Also, he's a far bigger asset because he can score goals and is always coming up with a good number of assists. Also defensively, he's not as slow as Zinchenko and has a much bigger physical presence.

Zinchenko leaves Arsenal exposed and is it worth it? I don't think it is because he's nowhere near as good as TAA when linking up play.

Arteta is playing Zinchenko at LB for one sole reason because Pep experimented with it. The Ukrainian is a natural left CAM. You won't see him play LB against England this weekend.

Just emphasises the point I made in my post as well. Pep selects and picks genuine defenders with a certain skill set to play the way he does. We have crychenko, kiwor and tomiyassu who are not fit for purpose to play in a posseion based team where your defenders need to be good in 1 vs 1 duals.

I think people need to go watch the Arsenal vs man city game again at Emirates. Watch how Man city's front 5 only engage in pressing on the 2nd pass of Arsenal's transition, reason being is on both right and left full back areas there are huge gaps to be if Arsensl don't beat the press and means that City then have overload advantage when attacking.

Also watch how many times man city switched the ball quickly into Arsenals left channel to bernado knowing that Zinchenko is nowhere to be seen defensively and Gabriel is then left in one vs one duals with haaland with no cover.

These are the continual tactical blunders which get exposed. But we get told that's how we are playing as it benefits us in midfield, yet leaking goals like a broken tap.

 

[Rizzy1]

Lots of pessimism here. Nobody is saying show blind loyalty but like stop being so miserable about it. Feels like some supporters are waiting for the team to fail just so they can be proven right and say I told you so.

 

[Firebat]

Zinchenko's link up play is good. I agree with you on this part however he is one of the worst defenders (if not the worst) I've seen play for a big club at LB.

Mamoon, used to say TAA does the same job at Liverpool and it worked for Klopp's side however TAA's defending isn't as anywhere near as bad. Also, he's a far bigger asset because he can score goals and is always coming up with a good number of assists. Also defensively, he's not as slow as Zinchenko and has a much bigger physical presence.

Zinchenko leaves Arsenal exposed and is it worth it? I don't think it is because he's nowhere near as good as TAA when linking up play.

Arteta is playing Zinchenko at LB for one sole reason because Pep experimented with it. The Ukrainian is a natural left CAM. You won't see him play LB against England this weekend.

You can't just compare "link up play", Zinchenko and TAA are only similar in that their primary role is not to defend. Same is true with Robertson, who's also a middling defender. TAA's role is to be the creative force for Liverpool, like Odegaard standing at RB. It's a totally different system to ours, but the overall idea is still dominate the ball at the expense of defending and rely on big players like VVD and Allison to sweep up any mess. Attack the best form of defence. For us, we ask White, Saliba, Gabriel, Rice to sweep up.

Zinchenko's job is control possession and disrupt the opposition tactics by roaming around freely. I'm not saying he's a good defender or that it's not a weakness, but it's hardly our biggest weakness. The system he was in wasn't ultimately good enough to win a title, but it put us in the title race and made us best of the rest. He deserves more credit for that - the side improved massively with him in it compared to Tierney.

And the vast majority of goals conceded are not his fault, rather it's his contribution that means we score more and don't concede more, so I say yes it was worth it. Let's not forget City rolling up to the Emirates with Bernardo at LB and beating us.

Yes I know you don't win trophies for improving. Obviously the dream / next step is to have a player that can do both, we seemingly signed one but he tore his ACL on debut. Sadly, we're not backed by a nation state that we can buy 300 of them in case one gets injured.

 

[topspin]

And the vast majority of goals conceded are not his fault, rather it's his contribution that means we score more and don't concede more, so I say yes it was worth it. Let's not forget City rolling up to the Emirates with Bernardo at LB and beating us.

I strongly disagree with this. If we look back at last season, the biggest liability in the team was hands down Zinchenko. There were numerous incidents of him misplacing passes, getting dispossessed easily and leaving holes in our defence in the lead up to when we were leaking goals. He was our biggest culprit when it came to conceding goals.

I'm glad we're discussing this now because he's just shown for Ukraine, yet again, that he is a natural central midfielder.

It's blindingly obvious that he's not a LB. He has nothing going for him there, no defensive awareness and ability, no pace and no physical presence.

I know it was still early days for Timber but he looked like the real deal. I just hope he's the same player when he's back to full fitness.

 

[topspin]

You can't just compare "link up play", Zinchenko and TAA are only similar in that their primary role is not to defend. Same is true with Robertson, who's also a middling defender. TAA's role is to be the creative force for Liverpool, like Odegaard standing at RB. It's a totally different system to ours, but the overall idea is still dominate the ball at the expense of defending and rely on big players like VVD and Allison to sweep up any mess. Attack the best form of defence. For us, we ask White, Saliba, Gabriel, Rice to sweep up.

Zinchenko's job is control possession and disrupt the opposition tactics by roaming around freely. I'm not saying he's a good defender or that it's not a weakness, but it's hardly our biggest weakness. The system he was in wasn't ultimately good enough to win a title, but it put us in the title race and made us best of the rest. He deserves more credit for that - the side improved massively with him in it compared to Tierney.

And the vast majority of goals conceded are not his fault, rather it's his contribution that means we score more and don't concede more, so I say yes it was worth it. Let's not forget City rolling up to the Emirates with Bernardo at LB and beating us.

Yes I know you don't win trophies for improving. Obviously the dream / next step is to have a player that can do both, we seemingly signed one but he tore his ACL on debut. Sadly, we're not backed by a nation state that we can buy 300 of them in case one gets injured.

Also, I should add. Tierney is not only a better defender than Zinchenko but a competent one who had more pace running down the left flank and could deliver a good cross.

But let's say for argument sake Tierney isn't as effective when advancing in the opposition half, the bare minimum you get from any defender is to be half decent at defending.

I don't consider Rob Holding's defensive ability to be premier league standard. The fact that Zinchenko is an even worse defender tells you everything you need to know.

 

[Firebat]

I strongly disagree with this. If we look back at last season, the biggest liability in the team was hands down Zinchenko. There were numerous incidents of him misplacing passes, getting dispossessed easily and leaving holes in our defence in the lead up to when we were leaking goals. He was our biggest culprit when it came to conceding goals.

I'm glad we're discussing this now because he's just shown for Ukraine, yet again, that he is a natural central midfielder.

It's blindingly obvious that he's not a LB. He has nothing going for him there, no defensive awareness and ability, no pace and no physical presence.

I know it was still early days for Timber but he looked like the real deal. I just hope he's the same player when he's back to full fitness.

Also, I should add. Tierney is not only a better defender than Zinchenko but a competent one who had more pace running down the left flank and could deliver a good cross.

But let's say for argument sake Tierney isn't as effective when advancing in the opposition half, the bare minimum you get from any defender is to be half decent at defending.

I don't consider Rob Holding's defensive ability to be premier league standard. The fact that Zinchenko is an even worse defender tells you everything you need to know.

Zinchenko is not playing as LB, these formations are fluid. He's a natural central midfielder who spends the vast majority of the game standing in central midfield and running it. Again, it's just a question of system and trade-offs. Zinny is told to stand in midfield when in possession, leaving us exposed is an accepted risk that relies on Gabriel, Saliba, White, Rice, Ramsdale etc covering it up. Just like Alisson, VVD, Fabinho, Henderson used to cover up for TAA and Robertson. It's not Zinchenko's fault or mistake, it's literally the tactic.

As I said, the points table shows that the trade-off is worth it (compared to where we were before). The move to a more possession and pitch dominant side, that Zinchenko was the catalyst for, helped Arsenal score literally the most ever goals we've ever scored in a league season since 1964, while conceding pretty much the same as usual. Yes, there were other attacking factors, but you cannot separate Zinchenko's contribution from that record.

Obviously we need to concede less to win a title. Saliba, White, Gabriel, Ramsdale are not elite yet at sweeping up compared to prime VVD & Allison - case in point Rashford's goal at the weekend. Arteta wasn't going to wait for those guys to hit their prime so he decided it was easier to upgrade Zinchenko with Timber (and maybe Ramsdale with Raya).

As for Tierney, he's a totally different player to Zinchenko and his attributes were just not required anymore, it happens all the time. Pep replaced England #1, title-winning, world-class shot stopper Joe Hart with Bravo / Ederson, both of whom are far worse at saving goals, but for the requirements of Pep's system they're way better. And people had to get to grips with the fact that some managers want different qualities from a position, other than what most people want. Not better or worse players, just different.

Tierney's a good defender who's fantastic at overlapping and swinging in crosses. He doesn't work well with Martinelli because Gabi is overlapping himself, he prefers players inside like Xhaka and Jesus to combine with. Tierney worked better with a guy like Aubameyang on the left. And when Arteta wants to close out a game or consolidate, he puts on Tomi for Zinchenko who's a natural CB and a very strong defender. He just put in a monster performance there against Germany.

 

[Amjid Javed]

@Firebat you keep going on about Zinchenkos "trade offs" and how the positives outlay the negatives. Sorry but that's a seriously poor excuse to say the least. You can harp on about the number of goals Arsenal conceded is the same! Did it occur to you that when you go from 8th to 5th to 2nd if you are still conceding 40+ goals in a season you are ultimately going to keep falling short. (Yet your making out Zinchenko isnt. A major problem). You ain't winning a PL title concededing 40+ goals. Arteta is copying Peps methods and difference is Pep got rid of some of his full backs who became liabilities in terms of defending you look at Peps defenders at Barca (puyol, marques, pique) and his current group of defenders and they all have 3 key strengthens to playing in a Pep system

1) Good in one vs one duals, with City having most of the ball, they know they could be countered so they ensure they defenders they pick are good in one vs one situations.

2) positional awareness - being intelligent enough to know the attackers strengths and weakness and which areas to try and keep attackers in to limit damage that can be caused

3) a decent amount of pace, so that they can recover in 1 vs 1 duals

You look at players like Ake, akanji etc.. these guys aren't world class but they have the profile to do actually defende 1st. Even pep said his defenders are their defend. Look at City's defence this season is there anyone there starting all time who can't defend?

so all this Zinchenko trade off as though he transformed Arsenal is hilarious to say the least. Average footballers at best.

The games at Old trafford , Emirates (vs City) and anfield last seasons were big games where he was exposed and nutmegged in all 3 leading to goals. When there are such fine margins when going up against City in a title race. The so called oh well we will just keep playing with a glass jaw ain't going to work.

Then there was oh we can't replace players like man city when they get injured and spend loads of money. Yeah Arsenal will happily spank away 65M on tried and tested dog turd. So yeah Club always has money to spend but has wasted it on unnecessary signing. 3.5 years to build a proper defence so that excuse don't wash either

 

[MenInG]

Tough game for the Gooners but long way to go - let's hope they get lucky with injuries

 

[Amjid Javed]

Tough game for the Gooners but long way to go - let's hope they get lucky with injuries

If Rice injury is serious. That means a midfield of jorghino, havertz and oddegard. 2 Chelsea rejects.

Arteta incompetence was exposed once again today, No plan B

 

[FearlessRoar]

Odegaard: Our full focus is now on Aston Villa​

Every home game, Martin Odegaard gives you his thoughts on the goings-on around the club in his captain’s notes for the matchday programme.

Ahead of our clash with Aston Villa, Martin reflects on our Champions League quarter-final first leg against Bayern Munich, our defeat at Villa Park earlier in the season and lifts the lid on the mood in the camp during this relentless run of huge matches.

There were mixed feelings for us after the game on Tuesday night. For the way we played for most of the game and given how much of it we were able to control, I think we should have got the win. You know in the Champions League, playing against the big teams, you get punished for every mistake you make. That’s what we saw in that game, so that’s the level we are competing at, and that’s the quality these teams all have.

You cannot afford to make those mistakes in this competition, but despite that, we managed to get a result out of it, and it’s still all to play for when we go to Germany next week. We have a good feeling that we can win it there, we are confident, so overall it could have been better on Tuesday, but at the same time it could have been worse, so it’s not too bad.

To be honest though, right now all our focus is on facing Aston Villa today. It’s so close in the league, but all we can do is look at the next game, concentrate 100 per cent on what we have to do, and go out there to get the points. We need three points every time we play because that’s what the league is demanding right now. It’s so tight, so tough at the top and every game is crucial.

It’s a beautiful thing to be a part of right now, involved in all these big games at this important time of the season. Every game means so much, every game is crucial and it’s what everyone wants, being there and fighting for the big trophies. This is where we want to be, so we're enjoying it and embracing it.

We have painful memories of our game away to Aston Villa earlier this season, because we feel we deserved much more than we got. I think we played a pretty good game there, but without getting anything. We know we can definitely build on that to get the result today, and use that game as an extra motivation for us.

The spirit around Sobha Realty Training Centre and in the dressing room is so good right now, that we just can’t wait for the games to come. We are enjoying it every day, being around each other, with so much to work for. We enjoy playing together, we are pushing each other in every single training session and that transmits to the pitch as well. We are a team that enjoys being together.

We want to carry it on, build on what we are doing, and keep improving every day. That’s our challenge right now, and we are ready for it.

Odegaard: Our full focus is now on Aston Villa

Read a snippet of Martin Odegaard's programme notes ahead of our game against Aston Villa on Sunday afternoon

www.arsenal.com