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Where would Jacques Kallis rank amongst the great cricketers and all-rounders?

Harsh Thakor

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On mere figures Jacques Kallis is the greatest all-rounder ever and amongst the top 5 cricketers of all. His figures are simply stupendous or staggering and surpass even those of Imran ,Sobers and Tendulkar as a cricketer.

However what went against him is that he lacked the 'x ' factor of stalwart like Sobers ,Lara ,Imran,Botham or even Kapil and often did not step the gas sufficiently to win games.Kallis also was not at his best with both bat and ball for most of his career and for major part was great batsmen who bowled.Also not at his best in tests in England and Australia.Eclipsed greatly by Sobers as a match-winner as well as Imran and Miller or Botham in his peak.Kallis was not as explosive as Sobers with the bat or Imran ,Botham,Hadlee or even Kapil with the ball.Kallis also capitalized greatly on the minnow sin test cricket.


Neverthless he was the best of all all-rounders to bat for your life and in that regard in the Tendulkar-Lara class.Kallis also took 5 wickets and scored a century twice which Imran .Miller or Kapil have never done.He also was outstanding with the ball in some series like against West Indies at home and England in 1998.Significantly he even opened the great South African attack with the new ball which is remarkable.Considering his era it would have been very difficult for Kallis to carry such a heavy load with the ball.Kallis made a major contribution in South Africa reaching the top of the pedestal in test cricket unlike Tendulkar,Lara,Botham or Hadlee even if he averaged more in draws than wins.If not the executioner he was the architect of many victories for his side.South Africa with Kallis retained top sport in test cricket for a greater duration than Pakistan with Imran but ofcourse Imran played when West Indies were at their best.Had he played in the 1980's with tracks much more helpful he may well have been the leading all-rounder even if overshadowed by the ball by Imran ,Hadlee,Botham and Kapil.His figures in ODI's were marvellous.Phenomenal performance averaging 44 as a batsmen and 31 with the ball.


Arguably he has been grossly under rated like at 52nd place in Cristopher Martin Jenkins best 100 list and 80th place in Geoff Armstrong's 100 best.Both rank him below Sobers,Imran ,Miller,Botham,Hadlee and Kapil .I wonder what their criteria was.Only David Gower does him true justice placing him in the top 15 just below Imran and Botham.Kallis in my evaluation overall as a cricketer may be a notch below Bradman,Hobbs,Sobers,Imran,Viv,Tendulkar,Warne,Hammond ,Lara etc and in the category of Wasim Akram,Sunil Gavaskar,Ian Botham,Adam Gilchrist ,Richard Hadlee etc.

Kallis could not define an era like Botham,Sobers or Imran or entertain crowds like Kapil Dev but was morally right up there.If I had to guess he may be 2nd to Sobers as an all-rounder and amongst the top 15 cricketers of all.However with a gun on my head on another day he would by a whisker be below the likes of Miller,Imran,Botham .I have unanimity that Sobers was no1 but often feel in no man's land where Jacques would actually rank.
 
In the top 5 all rounders of all time. Below Sachin ,Lara ,Ponting,and Viv as a batsmen.
 
In the top 5 all rounders of all time. Below Sachin ,Lara ,Ponting,and Viv as a batsmen.

Where as a cricketer Overall?Around equal to Gilchrist ,McGrath or Wasim?Would he be a more suitable candidate than Imran ,Miller,Botham or even Sobers in a World xi?
 
Definitely in top 5. Very underrated cricketer, always loved his fighting spirit. Would Always want him in my team as an allrounder.
 
Very close behind Sobers as greatest all-rounder. You can’t really argue with all those centuries, wickets and catches.
 
Well it goes without saying that he's the best cricketer of his generation.

As a batsman alone he's the second best of his generation after Lara.
 
Pretty darn high. He was a colossul player and South Africa's greatest. I'd rank him higher than specialists like Sachin, McGrath and Muralitharan on the greatest cricketers list.

Probably the third or fourth-best all-rounder of all time, after Sobers, Imran and perhaps, Miller.
 
The greatest allrounder ever. People take the captaincy exploits of Imran and Kapil in World cup wins into consideration. Take those away and there is no greater all rounder with 600 International wickets and 25000 runs and hundreds of catches.
 
Great player, one of the all time greats. personally I won't pay to watch him play though. Was more of a statistician delight rather than a fan.

For those I have the pleasure to seehere is who I will pay to watch for all roundes, in my order of choice s:
Kapil
Botham
Imran
Chris cairns
Flintoff
Akram
Hadlee
 
Where as a cricketer Overall?Around equal to Gilchrist ,McGrath or Wasim?Would he be a more suitable candidate than Imran ,Miller,Botham or even Sobers in a World xi?


I wouldn't rank him higher than Gilchrist. Gilchrist is the greatest keeper batsmen of all time whilst Kallis being the best all rounder of all time is debatable.

I would have Imran and Bottham ahead of him as an all rounder in a World XI.
 
The kind of stats Kallis has , its tough to exclude him from top 3 all rounders of all times.
 
CRICKET SOUTH AFRICA (CSA) today congratulated former Standard Bank Proteas all-rounder Jacques Kallis on being honoured with the Ikhamanga Award in the Silver Division for his excellence in cricket and the role he has played in putting South Africa on the world sports map.

The National Orders ceremony was presided over today by the President, the Honourable Cyril Ramaphosa, at a function in Tshwane. Kallis was not able to attend in person because of his involvement in the Indian Premier League as head coach of the Kolkata Knight Riders and the award was accepted on his behalf by his wife, Charlene, and former Proteas all-rounder, David Rundle.

“It is highly fitting that Jacques should be honoured in this way with this prestigious award,” commented CSA Chief Executive Thabang Moroe. “Jacques’ long list of achievements hardly need repeating but suffice it to say he stands alongside the great Sir Garfield Sobers as the greatest batting all-rounder of all time and is certainly our greatest player of the modern era. He earned his place in every Protea team he represented both as a top-order batsman and as an outstanding swing bowler of lively pace. In addition, his slip catching was legendary and contributed significantly to the successes our fast bowlers enjoyed throughout his career.

“Most of important of all is the outstanding example he has set for the highest standards of sportsmanship and the traditions of the game to inspire not just aspiring young cricketers but the youth of the entire country.

“He is indeed one of the crown jewels of the CSA family and indeed I can speak on behalf of the entire nation in congratulating him and saying how proud we all are of him,” concluded Mr. Moroe.
 
He's the greatest all rounder to have played the game. He lacked the x-factor and belonged to a country without much media hype so he will always be underrated as a cricketer.
 
As a test cricketer, right there at the top. Hitting 45 centuries is no joke then you add his bowling and fielding and he becomes the complete package.
 
A legend of the game. Hard to fill boots for someone like him with multi-skills, being an expertise in batting and slip catching as well.
 
Third best AR in history after Sobers and Imran ahead of Miller and Botham.
 
Tier 1: Imran+Sobers
Tier 2: Hadlee,Botham,Kallis
Tier 3: Pollock, Miller, Shakib
Tier 4: Kapil,Flintoff
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">&#55356;&#57119; ICC Hall of Fame 2020: Jacques Kallis &#55356;&#56831;&#55356;&#56806; <br><br>&#55357;&#56613; 10,000 runs and 200 wickets in both Tests and ODIs<br>&#55356;&#57285; Record 23 Player of the Match awards in Tests<br>&#55356;&#57295; South Africa's highest run-getter in Tests and ODIs <br>&#55357;&#56490; An all-round legend <a href="https://t.co/5sDPlaCcQX">pic.twitter.com/5sDPlaCcQX</a></p>— ICC (@ICC) <a href="https://twitter.com/ICC/status/1297461591424798723?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">August 23, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 
Happy birthday, GOAT.

25,534 international runs.

577 international wickets.

Only player with 20K+ runs and 500+ wickets.

The true all-rounder of the game, Jacques Kallis
 
Ricky Ponting recently declared Kallis as the greatest cricket ever. It's hard to disagree with this.
 
I think Kallis is the best all-rounder of all time. He has 13,000+ Test runs and 11,000+ ODI runs. He has 292 Test wickets and 273 ODI wickets.

Kallis is also one of the best cricketers of all time. Among top 5 for me.
 
I think Kallis is the best all-rounder of all time. He has 13,000+ Test runs and 11,000+ ODI runs. He has 292 Test wickets and 273 ODI wickets.

Kallis is also one of the best cricketers of all time. Among top 5 for me.
He can also legitimately claim to be the best test bat of all time as well as all rounder.

He had a phenomenal career.
 
Kallis has had many great performances.

His best performance probably came in 1998 CT (which South Africa won). I believe he took a 5-fer in the final. He was both the man of the final and man of the series in that tournament.

 
Ricky Ponting recently declared Kallis as the greatest cricket ever. It's hard to disagree with this.

He’s not alone. I believe Kevin Peterson has said the same and a good number of modern day cricketers regard Kallis the greatest ever for being a prolific batter and pacer.

Terrific cricketer.

I personally do not believe the Kallis hype as much and consider him the actual greatest stat padder of all time. When Kallis played Australia and other major nations in top teams i never saw the urgency or fire in his eyes to dominate. South Africa was such a loaded side during his times and they were never able to beat the Aussies. I expected someone like Kallis to rise to the occasion but he was often just silently scoring runs and taking random wickets with no context.
 
He’s not alone. I believe Kevin Peterson has said the same and a good number of modern day cricketers regard Kallis the greatest ever for being a prolific batter and pacer.

Terrific cricketer.

I personally do not believe the Kallis hype as much and consider him the actual greatest stat padder of all time. When Kallis played Australia and other major nations in top teams i never saw the urgency or fire in his eyes to dominate. South Africa was such a loaded side during his times and they were never able to beat the Aussies. I expected someone like Kallis to rise to the occasion but he was often just silently scoring runs and taking random wickets with no context.

Indian posters just don't know how to credit non-Indian players.

They only want credits for Indian players.

Cringe.

BTW, South Africa won in Australia in the 2008 series.
 
Sure, one can argue that he didn't have that aagh and that dominating persona, but his stats are once in a LIFETIME that no-one has ever, or will ever get close to. The amount of wickets he has is a dream for most bowlers. And the amount of runs that he has is something that most batsmen never even imagine reaching because it's just so many runs.

And for a SENA batsman to average over 55 in Asia and the WI is a huge feat. 45 centuries overall. He's a silent assassin. He'd be given more love had he played for England or Australia.

I don't see how he doesn't walk into any all-time XIs.
 
Indian posters just don't know how to credit non-Indian players.

They only want credits for Indian players.

Cringe.

BTW, South Africa won in Australia in the 2008 series.
Agreed, @Bhaijaan isn't a bad poster but this post was just weak.

I mean this is a guy who batting wise in tests has

A) A 55 avg

B) 45 Test centuries (2nd highest)

C) 48 avg in aus, 58 avg in india, 59 in NZ, 56 in SA, 83 in pak, 55 in uae and WI(wi was a top tier teams at the time), Kallis has only been poor in England and even then he averages 35 and he literally dealt with the toughest bowlers of that era.

D) 13K + Test runs

And as a bowler he has 292 test wickets at an 32 avg which is ordinary for a bowler but for a batting allrounder it's out of this world, to top it off he bowled in a flat track era and not a bowling friendly era like we see today.

Even in odi he has a 44 avg and 17 centuries which is insane since many batters of his era including pointing and lara struggled to cross 40 to 42. 273 wickets in odi as well

If this isn't the best allrounder of all time then I don't know what is. My guess is Indians are salty cause just like root, Steve smith and Travis head, Kallis has bashed India more times then any other country 🤣🤣🤣
 
Agreed, @Bhaijaan isn't a bad poster but this post was just weak.

I mean this is a guy who batting wise in tests has

A) A 55 avg

B) 45 Test centuries (2nd highest)

C) 48 avg in aus, 58 avg in india, 59 in NZ, 56 in SA, 83 in pak, 55 in uae and WI(wi was a top tier teams at the time), Kallis has only been poor in England and even then he averages 35 and he literally dealt with the toughest bowlers of that era.

D) 13K + Test runs

And as a bowler he has 292 test wickets at an 32 avg which is ordinary for a bowler but for a batting allrounder it's out of this world, to top it off he bowled in a flat track era and not a bowling friendly era like we see today.

Even in odi he has a 44 avg and 17 centuries which is insane since many batters of his era including pointing and lara struggled to cross 40 to 42. 273 wickets in odi as well

If this isn't the best allrounder of all time then I don't know what is. My guess is Indians are salty cause just like root, Steve smith and Travis head, Kallis has bashed India more times then any other country 🤣🤣🤣
Sobers and Imran are both better than kallis
 
Kallis is the greatest cricketer ever and top 3 batsman of all time. If he was Indian, they would have crowned him the greatest batsman, bowler and fielder of all time and for a very good reason.
 
Agreed, @Bhaijaan isn't a bad poster but this post was just weak.

I mean this is a guy who batting wise in tests has

A) A 55 avg

B) 45 Test centuries (2nd highest)

C) 48 avg in aus, 58 avg in india, 59 in NZ, 56 in SA, 83 in pak, 55 in uae and WI(wi was a top tier teams at the time), Kallis has only been poor in England and even then he averages 35 and he literally dealt with the toughest bowlers of that era.

D) 13K + Test runs

And as a bowler he has 292 test wickets at an 32 avg which is ordinary for a bowler but for a batting allrounder it's out of this world, to top it off he bowled in a flat track era and not a bowling friendly era like we see today.

Even in odi he has a 44 avg and 17 centuries which is insane since many batters of his era including pointing and lara struggled to cross 40 to 42. 273 wickets in odi as well

If this isn't the best allrounder of all time then I don't know what is. My guess is Indians are salty cause just like root, Steve smith and Travis head, Kallis has bashed India more times then any other country 🤣🤣🤣

Agree.

If Kallis was an Indian, they probably would've made 5-10 Bollywood movies about him. But, since he is a South African, some Indians are stingy to give him credits I guess.

These people simply don't know how to respect legends. Even their own legends.
 
Among the Batting Allrounders in Test cricket Kallis comes next to Sobers. Ratings by some experts don’t make sense as they are like Movie Reviewers who don’t understand how the movie was made. Kallis will be in my all time XI along with Sobers.
 
Definitely a legend of the game.

Slightly overrated as a Test bowler because he didn't do as much outside South Africa. But still great numbers for an all-rounder and an absolute beast with the bat.

Not to mention one of the safest pair of hands in the field.

You add in his ODI exploits and it's obvious he's one of the greatest players to play the game.

One of the reasons he never got enough appreciation even when he was playing had more to do with play style. He never had the flair or entertainment factor expected of a star. Similar to Chanderpaul in a way. You realize these guys are great once you go through their stats but overlook them in the moment.
 
Arguably the best batting allrounder as far as Tests are concerned. Kallis did better as a bowler stats wise as I never saw Sobers bowl. He was someone who retired while still in top form. He could have played for 2 more years in tests and eyed the 50 test 100 mark.
 
Agree.

If Kallis was an Indian, they probably would've made 5-10 Bollywood movies about him. But, since he is a South African, some Indians are stingy to give him credits I guess.

These people simply don't know how to respect legends. Even their own legends.
Indians are not like Pakistani’s who shoot bullets into the legs of their Heroes like what happened to Imran Khan 🤣
 
Kallis is basically a batting all rounder.

He was not a front line bowler in the playing XI. Thus he has to be compared with other batting all rounders. So we should not mix batting and bowling all rounders in this thread.
 
Jacques Kallis doesn't rate despite having the best all-rounder's stats


No all-rounder in the history of Test cricket, including Sir Garfield Sobers, has statistics that compare with South African Jacques Kallis.

Yet ask cricketers, past and present, where Kallis sits on the list of great all-rounders and you won't find the 33-year-old in the top 10.

Kallis has scored 9801 runs in 125 Tests at an average of 55.06 and taken 245 wickets at a highly respectable 30.92. And while he has scored 30 centuries, he has never made a double hundred.

Those figures stack up very well against Sobers, who made 8032 runs at 57.78 in 93 Tests and took 235 wickets at 34.03.

And Sobers is widely regarded as the game's greatest all-rounder.

Why doesn't Kallis receive the recognition his record deserves?

It comes down to how you play the game, according to a couple of Australians who have played with and against some of the world's best all-rounders.

In Keith Stackpole's mind, Kallis is a "selfish cricketer".

"You watch him bat and you are left with the feeling he bats for his average," said Stackpole, who scored seven tons in 43 Tests as an opener.

"And you ask yourself, 'Would I have wanted to play with him?'. The answer is no because he plays for himself.

"He doesn't rate against players such as Gary Sobers, Imran Khan, Keith Miller, Adam Gilchrist, Richard Hadlee, Kapil Dev and Ian Botham.

"Of that group, I would have to place Sobers at one, ahead of Imran, Miller, Hadlee and Gilchrist. Imran Khan was a super cricketer.

"And don't forget another South African in Clive Rice, who was hurt more by apartheid than any other great cricketer.

"Tony Greig is another who doesn't get the recognition he deserves.


"To me he was every bit as good as Ian Botham."


Former Australia quick Rodney Hogg played against Imran, Hadlee, Botham, Kapil, Malcolm Marshall and Rice and saw Sobers on two West Indies tours of Australia.

"Sobers has to be rated on top but I have enormous respect for Imran, and while Hadlee wasn't as good with the bat, he is clearly the best bowler of those all-rounders like Kapil, Botham and Marshall," Hogg said.

"Botham's shocking record against the great West Indies teams counts against him.

"Rice I played against on two tours of South Africa in the mid-'80s and remember him as someone who wanted to kill you with every ball.

"Kallis is a flat-track bully, who dishes it out to the minnows like Bangladesh and Zimbabwe but goes missing against the Australians.

"Sobers played more than half of his Tests against England and Australia, whereas Kallis has picked up around 1000 runs and 40 wickets against Zimbabwe and Bangladesh. They shouldn't count.

"Kallis is a player at age 33 that we will really target in this Test series. And he is boring to watch as a bowler, just constantly bowling outside off-stump."


Rice made 26,331 first-class runs (48 centuries) at 40.95 and took 930 wickets at 22.49 for Transvaal, Nottinghamshire, Scotland and Natal.

Irrespective of where you rate Kallis, what becomes evident when investigating all-rounders is the number of high quality batsmen-bowlers and batsmen-keepers produced in South Africa.

Eddie Barlow, Mark Boucher, Trevor Goddard, Kallis, Denis Lindsay, Brian McMillan, Shaun Pollock, Mike Procter, Rice and John Waite all qualify for the all-rounder tag.

All would walk into any Test team today, given the lack of genuine all-rounders. England's Andrew Flintoff is one such player, when fit, and New Zealand's Daniel Vettori has batted well enough in the past five years to be rated an all-rounder.

Australia continues to search for a genuine all-rounder, a search that has been going on since Miller retired 50 years ago.

Alan Davidson was a great cricketer but more a bowler than batsman, Gary Gilmour showed glimpses of class and there has been nobody since to nail down the spot, although players such as Phil Carlson, Ken Macleay, Trevor Laughlin and Glenn Trimble have been tried.

Steve Waugh was clearly the best, claiming 92 wickets at 37.44 before reducing his bowling output because of back problems.​
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Doesn't get enough credit. He is unquestionably one of the greatest cricketers to ever play the game. His name should be mentioned along with the greats of the game, rather than just the greatest all-rounders.
 
He is a Goat infact next level Goat , though he instilled the chokers mentality of 90s to next Gen like ABDV Miller Steyn Duminy Amla.

Still Kallis is the perfect definition of a great player , exceptional player
 
Australia batter Steve Smith has hailed former South Africa all-rounder Jacques Kallis as the greatest cricketer the game has ever seen while calling India's Sachin Tendulkar the greatest batter. Speaking to BBC, the Australian star shared his admiration for two of the most celebrated figures in world cricket.

Kallis, often described as the most complete cricketer, was a giant of the game. Representing South Africa from 1995 to 2014, he scored 13,289 Test runs at an average of 55.37, alongside 11,579 runs in ODIs. Equally destructive with the ball, he picked up 292 wickets in Tests and 273 in ODIs, making him arguably the finest all-rounder in cricket history.

Tendulkar, meanwhile, remains the benchmark for batting greatness. The Indian legend retired in 2013 as the highest run-scorer in both Tests and ODIs, with 15,921 runs in 200 Tests and 18,426 runs in 463 ODIs. His tally of 100 international centuries is a record that still stands untouched, underlining why Smith calls him the greatest batter of all time.

Smith himself is widely regarded as one of the finest Test batters of the modern era. Since his debut in 2010, the right-hander has amassed 10,477 runs in 119 Tests at an average of 56.03, including 36 centuries. His unorthodox style, relentless consistency and match-winning knocks have placed him in the same conversations as the legends he admires.

By placing Kallis and Tendulkar at the top, Smith not only paid tribute to two icons but also reminded fans of the high standards that define cricket across generations.

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Link: https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/cr...-cricketer-and-batter-of-all-time/ar-AA1KCuDF

 
Honestly no South African batsman filled me with fear more than Kallis. Whenever he came out to bat against Pakistan, it was ominous signs. And he always punished Pakistan.

One aspect about Kallis that people don't talk enough about is that he was basically a genetic freak. Tall, built like a tank, with such an imposing presence. You have to be a genetic freak to look like that and play for as long as he did while being a proper all-rounder. He played 166 test matches and 328 ODIs.

Only 5 players in the history of this sport have more test caps than him. And none of them were all-rounders.

I don't think there is any doubt in my mind that he is the greatest all-rounder this sport has ever seen.
 
The greatest statistical wonder cricket world has ever seen or will ever see. If I hadn't witnessed the man's 18 year long career from beginning to right till the end I would have blindly accepted him as the undisputed 🐐 of the game.
His odi figures (as batsman) are the most deceiving & contradictory figures that I have ever found. People calling Yousuf,Babar, Amla etc "soft/accumulator/impactless/selfish" need to dig deep & analize this man's odi career to truly understand how much damage he has done throughout the years to his nation, particularly on the biggest of occasions.

I am not cutting Babar or Amla any slack btw, I haven't posted anything for almost 2 years in this forum, so naturally I assume I have been forgotten, but at that time I was one of the most despised posters here by Babar fans due to my scathing & unapologetic review on the man. I was one of the rarest who criticised Babar & called out his selfishness during his golden 19-22 era. I am just saying you can't criticise Babar or Amla & then worship Kallis. Because this man was guilty of every of those crimes that Babar is accused of in white ball cricket.
 
The greatest statistical wonder cricket world has ever seen or will ever see. If I hadn't witnessed the man's 18 year long career from beginning to right till the end I would have blindly accepted him as the undisputed 🐐 of the game.
His odi figures (as batsman) are the most deceiving & contradictory figures that I have ever found. People calling Yousuf,Babar, Amla etc "soft/accumulator/impactless/selfish" need to dig deep & analize this man's odi career to truly understand how much damage he has done throughout the years to his nation, particularly on the biggest of occasions.

I am not cutting Babar or Amla any slack btw, I haven't posted anything for almost 2 years in this forum, so naturally I assume I have been forgotten, but at that time I was one of the most despised posters here by Babar fans due to my scathing & unapologetic review on the man. I was one of the rarest who criticised Babar & called out his selfishness during his golden 19-22 era. I am just saying you can't criticise Babar or Amla & then worship Kallis. Because this man was guilty of every of those crimes that Babar is accused of in white ball cricket.
Nobody cares about ODI cricket. Legacies are built on test cricket. And nobody can dispute Kallis' place as one of the all-time greats.

The only thing that matters in ODI cricket is winning the World Cup. And you can't put the blame of South Africa not winning the World Cup solely on him. There are a plethora of players who share the blame to varying degrees.
 
Nobody cares about ODI cricket. Legacies are built on test cricket. And nobody can dispute Kallis' place as one of the all-time greats.

The only thing that matters in ODI cricket is winning the World Cup. And you can't put the blame of South Africa not winning the World Cup solely on him. There are a plethora of players who share the blame to varying degrees.

Kallis was the player of the final in 1998 CT (won by South Africa).

He was also one of the best players in that tournament.
 
Nobody cares about ODI cricket. Legacies are built on test cricket. And nobody can dispute Kallis' place as one of the all-time greats.
Maybe nobody cares about ODI cricket now after post covid era, but back then, story was completely different. So Viv, 2 W's, Sachin, Ponting, Jayasuria, Kohli, Inzamam, Kapil etc have built their legacies solely based on test cricket? ODI didn't play any part in that?
The only thing that matters in ODI cricket is winning the World Cup. And you can't put the blame of South Africa not winning the World Cup solely on him. There are a plethora of players who share the blame to varying degrees.
If the only thing that matters in ODI cricket is winning the world cup then I have to assume Waqar, Anwar,Lara, AB, Rohit, Saqlain, Donald, Pollock, Ambrose, Gibbs, Ganguly,Akhter,Bumrah & many more aren't great ODI players, right? According to your logic these guys aren't great.
I didn't put the blame entirely on Kallis for those WC failures. Plenty of his teammates are to be blamed. However on each of those occasion he either failed or played such momentum killing knocks that opposition were the only beneficiaries. He doesn't have a single standout knock which could have proved that atleast he was close enough to win. I am not even including his t20i career, because then it becomes even more ridiculous, plus t20 should not be used as any form of benchmark for greatness.
 
@Major do you think Misbah was better than Kallis because Misbah had an ICC winner’s medal?
Winning the top trophy in sports matters alot. Infact, its the only thing that matters. A player can be better. Like how Akhtar is better than Joginder Sharma, or how Kallis is better than Misbah. But being better means nothing if you are not winning the top trophy. My criticism on Akhtar is not that he sucked and couldnt win a trophy. My criticism on Akhtar is, his attitude problems ended up leading him to sitting out in ICC tournaments, that he could had won.

At the end of the day the purpose of being a good player is to win just some series or the ICC trophy?

However, i would agree that for Test cricket you cannot the same standard as a Test series itself is a tournament where a players ability is truly judged. But than you cant look at a one of series, you will have to judge based that on a series of test series. Younis Khan did not become a great by winning a world t20 but by his sheer dominance in Test Cricket and becoming the expert 4th innings batter.

But for limited overs cricket the ICC trophy is your main target, not the series. When Kapil won his World Cup, Imran Khan was not just determined to win a few series, he was determined to win the World Cup. Which is why when Zia ul haq gave him that olive branch to come out of retirement and go for the 1992 world cup, he took it and won.
 
Maybe nobody cares about ODI cricket now after post covid era, but back then, story was completely different. So Viv, 2 W's, Sachin, Ponting, Jayasuria, Kohli, Inzamam, Kapil etc have built their legacies solely based on test cricket? ODI didn't play any part in that?

If the only thing that matters in ODI cricket is winning the world cup then I have to assume Waqar, Anwar,Lara, AB, Rohit, Saqlain, Donald, Pollock, Ambrose, Gibbs, Ganguly,Akhter,Bumrah & many more aren't great ODI players, right? According to your logic these guys aren't great.
I didn't put the blame entirely on Kallis for those WC failures. Plenty of his teammates are to be blamed. However on each of those occasion he either failed or played such momentum killing knocks that opposition were the only beneficiaries. He doesn't have a single standout knock which could have proved that atleast he was close enough to win. I am not even including his t20i career, because then it becomes even more ridiculous, plus t20 should not be used as any form of benchmark for greatness.
The old timers can answer this question better. Because after Kerry Pecker came along only they could tell how ODI cricket and series was viewed back than. Was it looked at as tamasha cricket or what.

Cause i remember us being kicked out of the 2007 World Cup and the series we won against Sri Lanka right after the World Cup meant nothing to anyone.

ODI series do add to the players value, i will agree to that, but the series success tend to get forgotten.
 
Australia batter Steve Smith has hailed former South Africa all-rounder Jacques Kallis as the greatest cricketer the game has ever seen while calling India's Sachin Tendulkar the greatest batter. Speaking to BBC, the Australian star shared his admiration for two of the most celebrated figures in world cricket.

Kallis, often described as the most complete cricketer, was a giant of the game. Representing South Africa from 1995 to 2014, he scored 13,289 Test runs at an average of 55.37, alongside 11,579 runs in ODIs. Equally destructive with the ball, he picked up 292 wickets in Tests and 273 in ODIs, making him arguably the finest all-rounder in cricket history.

Tendulkar, meanwhile, remains the benchmark for batting greatness. The Indian legend retired in 2013 as the highest run-scorer in both Tests and ODIs, with 15,921 runs in 200 Tests and 18,426 runs in 463 ODIs. His tally of 100 international centuries is a record that still stands untouched, underlining why Smith calls him the greatest batter of all time.

Smith himself is widely regarded as one of the finest Test batters of the modern era. Since his debut in 2010, the right-hander has amassed 10,477 runs in 119 Tests at an average of 56.03, including 36 centuries. His unorthodox style, relentless consistency and match-winning knocks have placed him in the same conversations as the legends he admires.

By placing Kallis and Tendulkar at the top, Smith not only paid tribute to two icons but also reminded fans of the high standards that define cricket across generations.

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Link: https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/cr...-cricketer-and-batter-of-all-time/ar-AA1KCuDF

I'm surprised some of the sore losers haven't accused Steve Smith of sucking upto India for a better IPL contract 🤡
 
The old timers can answer this question better. Because after Kerry Pecker came along only they could tell how ODI cricket and series was viewed back than. Was it looked at as tamasha cricket or what.

Cause i remember us being kicked out of the 2007 World Cup and the series we won against Sri Lanka right after the World Cup meant nothing to anyone.

ODI series do add to the players value, i will agree to that, but the series success tend to get forgotten.

I think ICC trophies get remembered the most. Even Test series can get forgotten after a while.

Does anyone care what happened in a Test series in 1955? Not many will probably remember (or care).
 
I think ICC trophies get remembered the most. Even Test series can get forgotten after a while.

Does anyone care what happened in a Test series in 1955? Not many will probably remember (or care).
Test series win has its charisma, but from a players career perspective you need a large sample size. Abdul Rehman had a more impact on our test wins in that England clean sweep, yet when compared against ajmal, we take ajmal as the better spinner while rehman is remembered as footnote. Because Ajmal performed well on a large sample size
 
His record is phenomenal. Kallis is talked about much but as a bowler, he did better job than many and he was a complete batter as well so proper all-rounder.
 
The old timers can answer this question better. Because after Kerry Pecker came along only they could tell how ODI cricket and series was viewed back than. Was it looked at as tamasha cricket or what.

Cause i remember us being kicked out of the 2007 World Cup and the series we won against Sri Lanka right after the World Cup meant nothing to anyone.
ODI cricket from late 80's upto atleast until 10/11 was as prestigious & significant as test cricket was if not more, to players, media & fans alike. Rise of t20, monopoly of Ind/big 3, end of Australian domination/ Ponting era, retirement of all the 90's legends, Ind/Pak relation becoming nonexistent - each of this & many other points played a significant part in decline of ODI cricket. However it's covid 19 which completely killed & decimated this format permanently.
ODI series do add to the players value, i will agree to that, but the series success tend to get forgotten.
Till this day you & many celebrate Misbah & his boys' unexpected success at the 12/13 series(Aane do or whatever Indians called it) as well as first ever series win in SA later that year. Outside of icc events, if you ask Indians what is their greatest success in ODI cricket, while not majority, but many will certainly answer their 2004 triumph in Pakistan. Subsequently Pakistan's 2005 conquering of Ind is still highly regarded as one of their greatest ODI moments outside of 92 & 17. ODI success just don't tend to be forgotten. Certain memories will remain evergreen.
 
Kallis is a lower tier ATG bat because as mentioned in one of the articles above, he did stat pad a fair bit. He played in a strong lineup where he batted at 4 and has good number of not outs and his career S/R of 45 isn’t great either.

Opposite to him was Brian Lara who has very few not outs and his S/R of 60 was quite impressive for his era.

When we calculate RPI, Lara is at 51 and Kallis is at 46. So, we can see that how Lara is so much ahead by just excluding not outs. It is same as when we compare Stokes batting with Jadeja. Stokes averages 2 lesser than Jadeja but when you calculate RPI, Stokes is at 34 and Jadeja is at 30.

This doesn’t mean we completely leave out the not outs but there needs to be a fair margin to accept the count of not outs for a player, especially those who don’t score runs fast.
 
Only Sobers clears him as an all rounder. I am talking about the test format here.
 
Only Sobers clears him as an all rounder. I am talking about the test format here.
What exactly are we talking about here? Is it purely based on stats? If so, then absolutely, there can be no further dispute. But if it's not stats, rather match credentials then you need to explain how was he better than Imran & Botham? What exactly makes him a better all rounder than those two gentlemen? Then there's Miller who belongs to a bygone era, but I have a feeling certain oldtimers who were lucky enough to witness him will claim his greatness.
 
Maybe nobody cares about ODI cricket now after post covid era, but back then, story was completely different. So Viv, 2 W's, Sachin, Ponting, Jayasuria, Kohli, Inzamam, Kapil etc have built their legacies solely based on test cricket? ODI didn't play any part in that?

If the only thing that matters in ODI cricket is winning the world cup then I have to assume Waqar, Anwar,Lara, AB, Rohit, Saqlain, Donald, Pollock, Ambrose, Gibbs, Ganguly,Akhter,Bumrah & many more aren't great ODI players, right? According to your logic these guys aren't great.
I didn't put the blame entirely on Kallis for those WC failures. Plenty of his teammates are to be blamed. However on each of those occasion he either failed or played such momentum killing knocks that opposition were the only beneficiaries. He doesn't have a single standout knock which could have proved that atleast he was close enough to win. I am not even including his t20i career, because then it becomes even more ridiculous, plus t20 should not be used as any form of benchmark for greatness.
How many tri-series, Nehru Cups, Pepsi Cups and what not were played in the 90s? Who remembers any of those series or tournaments today? Nobody recalls any of those tournaments when discussing the legacies of those 90s players besides the people who saw them live. To this day, the most iconic moment that people associate with Wasim Akram is his spell in the 1992 World Cup final. By contrast, people still recall Pakistan's 1988 tour of West Indies and how close they came to beating the most invincible team of that time. People still recall Pakistan's 1992 test series win in England, or even the last time Pakistan won a test match in South Africa. These matches are a part of history and always will be. Because even 30 years from now, historians will understand the value of Pakistan drawing that series in West Indies in '88.

Test cricket lives forever. Those bilateral and tri-series ODIs may have carried weight in the 90s, but today they’ve faded into irrelevance, and become lost to time. And honestly, that feels like the natural order. ODIs never carried the same depth or gravitas as Tests...they were a compromise between spectacle and substance. There’s no real pressure in bilateral ODIs anymore, and most teams don’t even bother playing their best elevens. Add to that how batter-friendly they have made ODI cricket and it basically just feels like an extension of T20 now. Test cricket, by contrast, exposes skill, temperament, and endurance in a way no other format can. And this has always been the case. The World Cup is the lone exception, a tournament whose prestige stands apart, and where there is real pressure and legacies are infact defined.
 
Kallis is a lower tier ATG bat because as mentioned in one of the articles above, he did stat pad a fair bit. He played in a strong lineup where he batted at 4 and has good number of not outs and his career S/R of 45 isn’t great either.

Opposite to him was Brian Lara who has very few not outs and his S/R of 60 was quite impressive for his era.

When we calculate RPI, Lara is at 51 and Kallis is at 46. So, we can see that how Lara is so much ahead by just excluding not outs. It is same as when we compare Stokes batting with Jadeja. Stokes averages 2 lesser than Jadeja but when you calculate RPI, Stokes is at 34 and Jadeja is at 30.

This doesn’t mean we completely leave out the not outs but there needs to be a fair margin to accept the count of not outs for a player, especially those who don’t score runs fast.
Okay, but does Lara have 292 test wickets?
 
It’s unfortunate that Kallis wasn’t born an Indian or Pakistani, else his status as the best cricket player of all time would not have been questioned.

As a bowler, in both tests and ODIs, he has almost 300 wickets in each format. As a batsman, more than 10k runs in each format and almost 300 catches. Who else can compete with him?
 
Okay, but does Lara have 292 test wickets?
That makes Kallis a better cricketer.

But as a batsman, he isn’t as good as his stats. He was rated below Lara, Tendulkar and Ponting from his era and this is probably down to his defensive style of batting.
 
That makes Kallis a better cricketer.

But as a batsman, he isn’t as good as his stats. He was rated below Lara, Tendulkar and Ponting from his era and this is probably down to his defensive style of batting.
Thread is about where Kallis ranks amongst the great cricketers and all-rounders of all time. And personally I think, being a great cricketer trumps being a great batsman or bowler. Also don't think it's far-fetched to say that Kallis ranks at the very top.

What he has been able to achieve with bat and ball is nothing short of remarkable. And I would be very surprised if another cricketer manages to accomplish something similar
 
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