Which aspect is the current Pakistani team worst in - batting, bowling or fielding?

[Shoaib88]

As we all know, post champions trophy 2017, Pakistan has sucked in all formats and in all aspects of cricket. However, things have gone significantly south since Misbah has taken over (my opinion).

We keep reaching new lows every time we play. The recent Shaheens match against domestic B team in New Zealand was cherry in top. We played all the hyped future talents in that match and got smashed by 9 wickets with more than half of the overs remaining in our strongest format.

As we are currently terrible in all aspects, my question is which aspect is the current pakistani team worst in- batting, bowling or fielding? The reason for this question is very important. This will help narrow down the grassroot problem Pakistan cricket faces once we compare how we used to fare in this aspect in the past and what has changed.

 

[Shoaib88]

In all 1st test match threads, I am seeing people saying how our bowling now is worse than our batting. This is the thread where we can explore this issue in depth.

 

[DRsohail]

Bowling.

 

[Shoaib88]

Bowling.

Agreed. Can you also please remind me what aspect were we the strongest in until 2010?

 

[DRsohail]

Agreed. Can you also please remind me what aspect were we the strongest in until 2010?

Our bowling was always good and batting was decent . We have fallen down in both departments but I do believe out bowling has regressed allot, spin, pace and allrounders. All are missing.

 

[DRsohail]

Our fielding is better now I think.

 

[Shoaib88]

Our bowling was always good and batting was decent . We have fallen down in both departments but I do believe out bowling has regressed allot, spin, pace and allrounders. All are missing.

Exactly our bowling has regressed a lot. Our batting has always been inconsistent and our fielding has always been terrible. However, the question is, how have pakistan gone from having one of the best bowling attacks in the world to one of the worst bowling attacks in the world within the last decade?

 

[Rana]

Bowling for sure. We have serious issues in this department, enough to end our hopes of winning Test matches ever again if we do not address them seriously

 

[Hyperion66]

Bowling without a doubt. The much maligned Pak batting tend to put respectable totals onboard more often than not. Also their lower middle order is probably one of the best in the world.

 

[Firebat]

Is all of the above an option?

 

[Firebat]

Our fielding is better now I think.

They would not have scored 431 in the 1st innings if we fielded well, and our bowling wouldn't seem so bad any more. We created many chances

 

[hitthestump]

If the problem is the bowling what do we do about it?

It's an obvious one but the first step needs to be to remove Waqar. Naseem is going nowhere, Abbas has gone backwards, Shaheen is only good with the new ball which was never Waqar's speciality in his own career.

There's no real excuse for a country like Pakistan with as many pace options as we have to be bowling so toothlessly. Ponting called it the worst attack he's ever seen. A year later we're no better. Waqar has got to go.

 

[Markhor]

Even during our worst batting talent droughts, I still felt we had an attack capable of taking 20 wickets.

Now you don't know where the runs or the wickets are coming from.

 

[DandyFellow]

Our fielding was and still is our worst. It is something that makes our bowling look even worse. Had the catches been taken 400 would not have been scored. Both Williamson and Nicholls would have been out early.
But fielding of our team was always bad. We used to compensate fielding by world class bowling by Wasim and Waqar. One way to make our mediocre bowling look good is to have good fielders.

 

[ElRaja]

batting.

in a test match if you give the oppositions best batsmen 3 chances there is no way you can logically expect them not to score 400.

the approach pak took to their first innings however was unforgivable. pak batted 102 overs, if they had shown some intent pak shd have scored at least 300.

as good as nz are, pak chose to bat in a manner which allowed nz to take control. this shows pak have no confidence in their own batting abilities, therefore the batting must be worse.

 

[Buffet]

In all 1st test match threads, I am seeing people saying how our bowling now is worse than our batting. This is the thread where we can explore this issue in depth.

Those people are spot on.

------------------------

Batting stats of the last 2 years:


One way to do a quick comparison can be how far Pakistan is in batting and bowling against the top team in the last 2 years.


Pakistan batting is averaged 30 and the highest batting team avg was 40. Only 3 batting teams are far ahead of Pakistan.


......................................................

..

In bowling, it's a horrible picture,

Bowling stats of the last 2 years:

The top bowling side averaged around 20, but Pakistan's average is almost double and touching 40. Pakistan is in the last spot and all teams have a better bowling average in the last 2 years.




Simply said, Pakistan has been scoring 300 runs per inning. Not great, but not too bad, but bowlers have been giving around 400 runs per inning. You can hardly win much if bowlers give 400 runs in each inning.

Now, you can argue about dropping catches, but have you seen how many catches India and Aus dropped in this ongoing series? yet, Indians are averaging near 20. I don't think it's just about fielding here. Pakistani bowling looks toothless. talent talk is nonsense. You can not put inexperienced bowlers in test match and expect them to know how to set up batsmen. They need to play first-class cricket.

 

[ask_analyse_act]

Those people are spot on.

------------------------

Batting stats of the last 2 years:


One way to do a quick comparison can be how far Pakistan is in batting and bowling against the top team in the last 2 years.


Pakistan batting is averaged 30 and the highest batting team avg was 40. Only 3 batting teams are far ahead of Pakistan.

View attachment 105707
......................................................

..

In bowling, it's a horrible picture,

Bowling stats of the last 2 years:

The top bowling side averaged around 20, but Pakistan's average is almost double and touching 40. Pakistan is in the last spot and all teams have a better bowling average in the last 2 years.

View attachment 105708


Simply said, Pakistan has been scoring 300 runs per inning. Not great, but not too bad, but bowlers have been giving around 400 runs per inning. You can hardly win much if bowlers give 400 runs in each inning.

Now, you can argue about dropping catches, but have you seen how many catches India and Aus dropped in this ongoing series? yet, Indians are averaging near 20. I don't think it's just about fielding here. Pakistani bowling looks toothless. talent talk is nonsense. You can not put inexperienced bowlers in test match and expect them to know how to set up batsmen. They need to play first-class cricket.

Clear indication Waqar is a nobody in terms of coaching. Doesn’t worth at all, he is there to collect the fat pay cheque.

 

[Buffet]

Clear indication Waqar is a nobody in terms of coaching. Doesn’t worth at all, he is there to collect the fat pay cheque.

How much role he has in selecting bowlers? Pakistan is throwing many newbies and hoping that something will stick. That can surely happen, but odds are not too high with that approach.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

As we all know, post champions trophy 2017, Pakistan has sucked in all formats and in all aspects of cricket. However, things have gone significantly south since Misbah has taken over (my opinion).

We keep reaching new lows every time we play. The recent Shaheens match against domestic B team in New Zealand was cherry in top. We played all the hyped future talents in that match and got smashed by 9 wickets with more than half of the overs remaining in our strongest format.

As we are currently terrible in all aspects, my question is which aspect is the current pakistani team worst in- batting, bowling or fielding? The reason for this question is very important. This will help narrow down the grassroot problem Pakistan cricket faces once we compare how we used to fare in this aspect in the past and what has changed.

It HAS to be batting.

Our batting has traditionally been down but not THIS bad. We used to have Amir Sohails and Saeed Anwars, and Javeds, and Inzis and Yousfus and Yonuses in the middle order then, Razzaq Wasim, Imran in the lower order who all could bat.

But now, we have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!

Top and middle order is a haystack and lower order batters don't know how to hold a bat.

There is an extremely good thread started here in the OP which gives us a great insight behind the decline in our performance.
It surely is the batting. There is simply no spine.

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...ade-ending-12-31-2019&p=11010266#post11010266


As for our pace bowling goes, yes it has significantly gone down too. From Wasim Akram and we stooped down to Sohail Tanvir and named seating enclosures after him. But in my opinion, we still have some potential in Naseem Shah if coached and guided properly. And then Shaheen isn't doing too bad on the other side.
But yes, indeed we need a good potent spinner. We just don't anyone right now.

Make a note that the bowling era is long gone from cricket. It's all about batting now.
You get good batsmen who can pile runs, you are good to go.

Even if we had good bowlers of the past playing now, they will be smacked all over the park. Modern day batsmen have become monsters. And we need such batsmen to be able to survive.

Having a great pace bowling attack is always good but having a strong batting line is more important than ever before.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Selection. It's not a great bowling attack but then again you need to select the right bowlers for the right tours. It won't make you a world beater but it's better than what it is now. Also a finger spinner who can provide control .

Batting is missing babar but otherwise it's OK. Problem is this an exceptionally strong NZ at home and its IMO the greatest NZ side of all time. You would have won the 1st test in England with a better bowling attack.

 

[Yk313]

Which aspect? I think the audacity to try and field an XI during this technology-data-biomechanics era itself is laudable itself.

 

[Fahdi]

Our bowling has been down right atrocious for the many years playing in SENA. England is the place where we are best at and last tour we were horrible there as well. The bowling has under performed on 2 tours of NZ, 2 tours of SA and 2 tours of Australia.

Batting has been terrible as well but we have lower expectations to start with and we have put up some good scores on more than a few occasions. Any decent bowling line up would have cashed in on those chances.

 

[indianpanacea]

Basically selection policy is wrong.Either teenagers or old men are played.No investment being done on talent.psl has become selection parameter...PCB should establish a cardinal rule that only players with at least 20 matches in domestic cricket (QEA)shall be selected..pls.no parachuting of teenagers in team..
For T-20 a minimum of 40 matches be made the milestone.

 

[shamaan]

fielding defonitely

 

[shamaan]

Our fielding is better now I think.

our fielding got better but now since the fielding coach as left its been below international cricket

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Those people are spot on.

------------------------

Batting stats of the last 2 years:


One way to do a quick comparison can be how far Pakistan is in batting and bowling against the top team in the last 2 years.


Pakistan batting is averaged 30 and the highest batting team avg was 40. Only 3 batting teams are far ahead of Pakistan.

View attachment 105707
......................................................

..

In bowling, it's a horrible picture,

Bowling stats of the last 2 years:

The top bowling side averaged around 20, but Pakistan's average is almost double and touching 40. Pakistan is in the last spot and all teams have a better bowling average in the last 2 years.

View attachment 105708


Simply said, Pakistan has been scoring 300 runs per inning. Not great, but not too bad, but bowlers have been giving around 400 runs per inning. You can hardly win much if bowlers give 400 runs in each inning.

Now, you can argue about dropping catches, but have you seen how many catches India and Aus dropped in this ongoing series? yet, Indians are averaging near 20. I don't think it's just about fielding here. Pakistani bowling looks toothless. talent talk is nonsense. You can not put inexperienced bowlers in test match and expect them to know how to set up batsmen. They need to play first-class cricket.

Very interesting stat.

 

[Markhor]

Those people are spot on.

------------------------

Batting stats of the last 2 years:


One way to do a quick comparison can be how far Pakistan is in batting and bowling against the top team in the last 2 years.


Pakistan batting is averaged 30 and the highest batting team avg was 40. Only 3 batting teams are far ahead of Pakistan.

View attachment 105707
......................................................

..

In bowling, it's a horrible picture,

Bowling stats of the last 2 years:

The top bowling side averaged around 20, but Pakistan's average is almost double and touching 40. Pakistan is in the last spot and all teams have a better bowling average in the last 2 years.

View attachment 105708


Simply said, Pakistan has been scoring 300 runs per inning. Not great, but not too bad, but bowlers have been giving around 400 runs per inning. You can hardly win much if bowlers give 400 runs in each inning.

Now, you can argue about dropping catches, but have you seen how many catches India and Aus dropped in this ongoing series? yet, Indians are averaging near 20. I don't think it's just about fielding here. Pakistani bowling looks toothless. talent talk is nonsense. You can not put inexperienced bowlers in test match and expect them to know how to set up batsmen. They need to play first-class cricket.

Shocking stats busting myth of Pakistan's bowling strength. Question is why such a decline ?

UAE conditions are one reason as are the green FC pitches pre-IK's reforms where skilless bowlers made merry. However one issue not as discussed - people talk about T20s destroying batting techniques in Tests, but I'm starting to think it's doing more damage to bowlers.

Bowling six different deliveries an over is not rewarded in Test format. Many T20 wickets are taken from a batsman's error trying to accelerate, but in Tests the art of setting up a batsman is essential. And obviously you won't learn how bowl long spells in a format where 4 overs is your limit.

I'm all in favour of youngsters making money in these leagues but they cannot forge successful Test careers unless they play some FC cricket and our youngsters are totally underexposed:

Mohammad Hasnain - 2 FC and 47 T20s.
Musa Khan - 9 FC and 27 T20s.
Shaheen Afridi - 17 FC (11 are Tests) and 68 T20s.
Haris Rauf - 3 FC and 57 T20s.

 

[JaDed]

Those people are spot on.

------------------------

Batting stats of the last 2 years:


One way to do a quick comparison can be how far Pakistan is in batting and bowling against the top team in the last 2 years.


Pakistan batting is averaged 30 and the highest batting team avg was 40. Only 3 batting teams are far ahead of Pakistan.

View attachment 105707
......................................................

..

In bowling, it's a horrible picture,

Bowling stats of the last 2 years:

The top bowling side averaged around 20, but Pakistan's average is almost double and touching 40. Pakistan is in the last spot and all teams have a better bowling average in the last 2 years.

View attachment 105708


Simply said, Pakistan has been scoring 300 runs per inning. Not great, but not too bad, but bowlers have been giving around 400 runs per inning. You can hardly win much if bowlers give 400 runs in each inning.

Now, you can argue about dropping catches, but have you seen how many catches India and Aus dropped in this ongoing series? yet, Indians are averaging near 20. I don't think it's just about fielding here. Pakistani bowling looks toothless. talent talk is nonsense. You can not put inexperienced bowlers in test match and expect them to know how to set up batsmen. They need to play first-class cricket.

I'm more shocked to see SA's stats WTH, hopefully things improve.

 

[Buffet]

Shocking stats busting myth of Pakistan's bowling strength. Question is why such a decline ?

UAE conditions are one reason as are the green FC pitches pre-IK's reforms where skilless bowlers made merry. However one issue not as discussed - people talk about T20s destroying batting techniques in Tests, but I'm starting to think it's doing more damage to bowlers.

Bowling six different deliveries an over is not rewarded in Test format. Many T20 wickets are taken from a batsman's error trying to accelerate, but in Tests the art of setting up a batsman is essential. And obviously you won't learn how bowl long spells in a format where 4 overs is your limit.

I'm all in favour of youngsters making money in these leagues but they cannot forge successful Test careers unless they play some FC cricket and our youngsters are totally underexposed:

Mohammad Hasnain - 2 FC and 47 T20s.
Musa Khan - 9 FC and 27 T20s.
Shaheen Afridi - 17 FC (11 are Tests) and 68 T20s.
Haris Rauf - 3 FC and 57 T20s.

Agree with the bold part fully. I saw Aus and Indian bowlers setting up batsmen consistently. Then you force errors. Smith was scoring runs for fun in ODI so he is a great form and yet they set him up in the first 2 tests. Sure, he is too good to not score for long, but it shows what can you when you have that skill.

I was trying to make this point in another thread about Naseem and it went into deaf ears. I don't see him any time trying to set up batsmen and forcing an error. You learn that by bowling long spells in domestic. Sure he can learn it in international eventually, but it will cost a lot.

 

[Buffet]

I'm more shocked to see SA's stats WTH, hopefully things improve.

Give it time, it will improve. It may take a few years. Domestic cricket will produce good cricketers. A huge change in one go is causing trouble here.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Give it time, it will improve. It may take a few years. Domestic cricket will produce good cricketers. A huge change in one go is causing trouble here.

South Africa hasn't toured places like UAE/Pakistan and Australia in quite a long time now. The bowling stats would have looked even worse had they toured these places and probably even in New Zealand. They were shockingly poor in India and I suspect they are even worse than those numbers show.

 

[Buffet]

South Africa hasn't toured places like UAE/Pakistan and Australia in quite a long time now. The bowling stats would have looked even worse had they toured these places and probably even in New Zealand. They were shockingly poor in India and I suspect they are even worse than those numbers show.

It's a tough time right now, but I am hopeful for the future. A good domestic structure should help to get back to good/decent level.

 

[PakPremi]

They would not have scored 431 in the 1st innings if we fielded well, and our bowling wouldn't seem so bad any more. We created many chances

Exactly if held onto our catches, reviewed Williamson when he was not given out by umpire, they would have made 350 which was expected of NZ in the form they are in and playing home. Pak bowled well England few times as well. We are also relying on two bowlers Shaheen and Yasir for wickets. Nasim is to raw with almost non existent experience of domestic, and Abbas does not have speed to trouble anyone consistently. Batting to me is worse with Azhar Ali on his very last leg, and Shan/Abid being poor overseas. Early days to judge Fawad at internationals. Only Babar is world class in the team.

 

[ShoaibM]

I think we are ignoring the aussie performance in the second test they may as well be asking the same question. Anyone see how many chances they snuffed?

Yes our fielding needs to improve but we shouldnt be looking for perfection. We have been competitive with a weakened team in one of the toughest places to tour against one of the best teams. India lost 2-0 in these conditions and never made it to day 5. So much wrist slitting over a somewhat decent performance all things considered.

 

[Mamoon]

Those people are spot on.

------------------------

Batting stats of the last 2 years:


One way to do a quick comparison can be how far Pakistan is in batting and bowling against the top team in the last 2 years.


Pakistan batting is averaged 30 and the highest batting team avg was 40. Only 3 batting teams are far ahead of Pakistan.

View attachment 105707
......................................................

..

In bowling, it's a horrible picture,

Bowling stats of the last 2 years:

The top bowling side averaged around 20, but Pakistan's average is almost double and touching 40. Pakistan is in the last spot and all teams have a better bowling average in the last 2 years.

View attachment 105708


Simply said, Pakistan has been scoring 300 runs per inning. Not great, but not too bad, but bowlers have been giving around 400 runs per inning. You can hardly win much if bowlers give 400 runs in each inning.

Now, you can argue about dropping catches, but have you seen how many catches India and Aus dropped in this ongoing series? yet, Indians are averaging near 20. I don't think it's just about fielding here. Pakistani bowling looks toothless. talent talk is nonsense. You can not put inexperienced bowlers in test match and expect them to know how to set up batsmen. They need to play first-class cricket.

Another indication of why Kohli’s India is the GOAT Asian Test team. Scintillating stuff.

 

[AdamM97]

Bowling. Never had high hopes from the batting lineup but watching Pak bowl in Test Cricket is so frustrating. This bowling lineup just isn’t good enough man.

 

[hoshiarpurexpress]

Ok but thats disagreement on tactics I dont see any intellectual dishonesty.

PCB moved on from Mickey because they wanted to focus on test matches first then ODI/T20. Under mickey our limited over teams were doing relatively better but the test team was suffering a lot. Dropping Asad Shafiq and replacing Sarfaraz with Rizwan are two huge steps in the right direction toward fixing our test team.

We can talk about tactics and disagree or whatever but its not fair to say Misbah has shown any intellectual dishonesty. YK and Waqar maybe.

Come on.. he sat on the committee and then fired Mickey, then
joined the same post as himself taking multiple jobs.
That is corrupt behaviour of the highest order. I did not expect this from Misbah.
He clearly has some dislike for youngsters.. unless his hand is forced.

His handling of your best bowler, Amir was disgraceful. All he needed was to sit with him and chalk out a plan and get best out of him till next World Cup. Then move on to next talent and groom him.
In man management, you don't chide people for their choices. You create a flexible environment and work around limitations of people.
Now, millions of rupees of investment on Amir is gone.
So overall, it is dishonesty, ego from top to bottom of the brass.
As an outsider to Pakistan cricket, this is all can say.
There are problems because of which Pakistan is bottom 5 ranked team, when ideally it should be in Top 4.

 

[ShoaibM]

Come on.. he sat on the committee and then fired Mickey, then
joined the same post as himself taking multiple jobs.
That is corrupt behaviour of the highest order. I did not expect this from Misbah.
He clearly has some dislike for youngsters.. unless his hand is forced.

His handling of your best bowler, Amir was disgraceful. All he needed was to sit with him and chalk out a plan and get best out of him till next World Cup. Then move on to next talent and groom him.
In man management, you don't chide people for their choices. You create a flexible environment and work around limitations of people.
Now, millions of rupees of investment on Amir is gone.
So overall, it is dishonesty, ego from top to bottom of the brass.
As an outsider to Pakistan cricket, this is all can say.
There are problems because of which Pakistan is bottom 5 ranked team, when ideally it should be in Top 4.

Well I disagree with you. Youre right that it is possible he double timed Mickey, but the plain truth is we dont know. What we do know is that PCB has a publicized strategy to focus on test matches first, something I very much agree with, and replacing Mickey with Misbah falls nicely into this strategy, so I will believe that is what lead to sacking Mickey. Who in my opinion was an awful choice to coach the Pak test team.

You make some good points about Amir. But honestly when I think about the arc of his career he did most of these things to himself. Its true that Waqar could have handled things better. Like not commenting in public. But I give Misbah credit for making no public statements on Amir. More importantly though if we get beyond this minor tiff, Amir wanted superstar treatment but he has not put in the work that entitles him to it. If you ask me nobody should be treated like a star but Amir certainly has not earned any special treatment. Its a sad story but in my opinion he holds most of the responsibility. Too bad for us, but this stuff happens in sports. You have to deal with it and I give Misbah credit for dealing with it like adults do, quietly and undramatically.

 

[waleed88]

As we all know, post champions trophy 2017, Pakistan has sucked in all formats and in all aspects of cricket. However, things have gone significantly south since Misbah has taken over (my opinion).

We keep reaching new lows every time we play. The recent Shaheens match against domestic B team in New Zealand was cherry in top. We played all the hyped future talents in that match and got smashed by 9 wickets with more than half of the overs remaining in our strongest format.

As we are currently terrible in all aspects, my question is which aspect is the current pakistani team worst in- batting, bowling or fielding? The reason for this question is very important. This will help narrow down the grassroot problem Pakistan cricket faces once we compare how we used to fare in this aspect in the past and what has changed.

Post Champions Trophy? I would say longggggg before that. I would go as far as to say post 2007 world cup. We have been thoroughly mediocre in almost all formats besides Tests in the UAE and England.

 

[Shoaib88]

Post Champions Trophy? I would say longggggg before that. I would go as far as to say post 2007 world cup. We have been thoroughly mediocre in almost all formats besides Tests in the UAE and England.

But we did win the champions trophy by thrashing India. A tournament win can't be called a fluke.

 

[Shoaib88]

Those people are spot on.

------------------------

Batting stats of the last 2 years:


One way to do a quick comparison can be how far Pakistan is in batting and bowling against the top team in the last 2 years.


Pakistan batting is averaged 30 and the highest batting team avg was 40. Only 3 batting teams are far ahead of Pakistan.

View attachment 105707
......................................................

..

In bowling, it's a horrible picture,

Bowling stats of the last 2 years:

The top bowling side averaged around 20, but Pakistan's average is almost double and touching 40. Pakistan is in the last spot and all teams have a better bowling average in the last 2 years.

View attachment 105708


Simply said, Pakistan has been scoring 300 runs per inning. Not great, but not too bad, but bowlers have been giving around 400 runs per inning. You can hardly win much if bowlers give 400 runs in each inning.

Now, you can argue about dropping catches, but have you seen how many catches India and Aus dropped in this ongoing series? yet, Indians are averaging near 20. I don't think it's just about fielding here. Pakistani bowling looks toothless. talent talk is nonsense. You can not put inexperienced bowlers in test match and expect them to know how to set up batsmen. They need to play first-class cricket.

Great statistics! Thanks for that!

 

[Nasty Naz]

Gotta be fielding. Pakistan is so very incompetent at making routine stops and catches. And it's a big reason why our bowling looks as bad as it does as well.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Bowling.

 

[Titan24]

Those people are spot on.

------------------------

Batting stats of the last 2 years:


One way to do a quick comparison can be how far Pakistan is in batting and bowling against the top team in the last 2 years.


Pakistan batting is averaged 30 and the highest batting team avg was 40. Only 3 batting teams are far ahead of Pakistan.

View attachment 105707
......................................................

..

In bowling, it's a horrible picture,

Bowling stats of the last 2 years:

The top bowling side averaged around 20, but Pakistan's average is almost double and touching 40. Pakistan is in the last spot and all teams have a better bowling average in the last 2 years.

View attachment 105708


Simply said, Pakistan has been scoring 300 runs per inning. Not great, but not too bad, but bowlers have been giving around 400 runs per inning. You can hardly win much if bowlers give 400 runs in each inning.

Now, you can argue about dropping catches, but have you seen how many catches India and Aus dropped in this ongoing series? yet, Indians are averaging near 20. I don't think it's just about fielding here. Pakistani bowling looks toothless. talent talk is nonsense. You can not put inexperienced bowlers in test match and expect them to know how to set up batsmen. They need to play first-class cricket.

Good stats, thanks for sharing. These stats are pretty telling, Pak bowling definitely needs to be improved and looked into.

 

[Suleiman]

[MENTION=97523]Buffet[/MENTION], those are some eye opening stats.

I underestimated India. And also underestimated how bad our bowling actually is. That is truly pathetic, being dead last.

 

[moghul]

Is all of the above an option?

That would have been an easy option.

With batting and bowling at all time worst, hard to pick one, but I think bowling standard has deteriorated more than batting.

 

[moghul]

With ICC's crackdown on chuckers , our winning formula has gone.

 

[tyron_woodley]

[MENTION=97523]Buffet[/MENTION], those are some eye opening stats.

I underestimated India. And also underestimated how bad our bowling actually is. That is truly pathetic, being dead last.

Lol understimated India.

 

[moghul]

Coaching , since Mickey left.

 

[MMHS]

The weakest “facet” of PAK game are by order (No . 1 is weakest)

1. Game intelligence
2. Bowling
3. Fielding
4. Batting

Batting actually isn’t that weak in Test - it’s quite resilient and can spend time; but shot making is a big issue for which batting in LO cricket is struggling.

But boy, Rizwan’s post game speech sums up the intelligence level .....

 

[wrongun]

Those batting stats surprised me. If Pakistan just had a settled opening combo they could probably close that gap to the top 3 by 5 runs or so.

Fielding has improved a bit. Not the best but mid tier catching side now & probably mid tier outfielding.

Test catch rates 2020
South Africa 81.4%
England 79.4%
Zimbabwe 79.2%
Pakistan 79.1%
Sri Lanka 78.8%
Bangladesh 77.3%
New Zealand 76.4%
India 75.5%
Australia 71.4%
West Indies 63.0%


Definitely the main issue is the bowling. Look at it in the cold light of day...

The seam attack is led by a 22 year old (21? 20?) with 12 Tests & <50 Test wickets. He's a good bowler but in any other country he's the young quick learning his trade not expected to lead the entire attack.

Then he is teaching a 19 year old as first change bowler...

Abbas is the senior bowler but he's not striking lately. Badly need him to step up. Or Hassan Ali to return to his best.

 

[Buffet]

[MENTION=97523]Buffet[/MENTION], those are some eye opening stats.

I underestimated India. And also underestimated how bad our bowling actually is. That is truly pathetic, being dead last.

Bowling stats are so poor due to inexperience in the pace bowling unit.

 

[Buffet]

Those batting stats surprised me. If Pakistan just had a settled opening combo they could probably close that gap to the top 3 by 5 runs or so.

Fielding has improved a bit. Not the best but mid tier catching side now & probably mid tier outfielding.

Test catch rates 2020
South Africa 81.4%
England 79.4%
Zimbabwe 79.2%
Pakistan 79.1%
Sri Lanka 78.8%
Bangladesh 77.3%
New Zealand 76.4%
India 75.5%
Australia 71.4%
West Indies 63.0%


Definitely the main issue is the bowling. Look at it in the cold light of day...

The seam attack is led by a 22 year old (21? 20?) with 12 Tests & <50 Test wickets. He's a good bowler but in any other country he's the young quick learning his trade not expected to lead the entire attack.

Then he is teaching a 19 year old as first change bowler...

Abbas is the senior bowler but he's not striking lately. Badly need him to step up. Or Hassan Ali to return to his best.

I was also surprised by the batting output of Pakistan. With a settled opening pair, their output would have been much closer to the top 3. I don't think they have done too bad in batting.

A major issue has been their bowling and that's by a large margin due to the reasons you mentioned. They needed a bit of experience in the pace unit. If their bowling was somewhere in middle like batting, then they would have lost fewer games.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Those batting stats surprised me. If Pakistan just had a settled opening combo they could probably close that gap to the top 3 by 5 runs or so.

Fielding has improved a bit. Not the best but mid tier catching side now & probably mid tier outfielding.

Test catch rates 2020
South Africa 81.4%
England 79.4%
Zimbabwe 79.2%
Pakistan 79.1%
Sri Lanka 78.8%
Bangladesh 77.3%
New Zealand 76.4%
India 75.5%
Australia 71.4%
West Indies 63.0%


Definitely the main issue is the bowling. Look at it in the cold light of day...

The seam attack is led by a 22 year old (21? 20?) with 12 Tests & <50 Test wickets. He's a good bowler but in any other country he's the young quick learning his trade not expected to lead the entire attack.

Then he is teaching a 19 year old as first change bowler...

Abbas is the senior bowler but he's not striking lately. Badly need him to step up. Or Hassan Ali to return to his best.

Apart from the latest test in NZ, Pakistan have been one of the best catching sides in the last 2 years. Which actually shows that it is the bowling that's been suffering.

 

[Suleiman]

Bowling for sure.

I think we all kinda knew at the back of our minds that our batting is decent, but the bowling has been so atrocious that we kinda skim over that this batting is more solid than a few squads we’ve put out in the last 12 or so years.

So that’s cool, and I think we have good test bats in domestics too.

Pace bowling looks p bad right now, and I think it’s just that we don’t have an actual pacer with a few years under his belt to guide the younglings along.

Batting had Misbah and Younis to groom guys like Azhar and Asad, who are duds now but at least had guidance.

Fast bowling wise there has been no consistent pacer in the last 5 years and a lot of names tried. Wahab is too hot and cold, Sohail is over the hill, Rahat is too inconsistent and Amir ran away after being given a golden ticket of life to have a great career after committing a massive crime.

So imo just choose a core of 2-3 pacers (already have 1 quality pacer) and then give them 3 series or so to fit into the scene. Don’t panic and replace pacers after every failed series.

 

[Last Monetarist]

It's been bowling since the bans for Amir and Asif. Ajmal and Hafeez chucking in the UAE notwithstanding.

The batting and fielding are serviceable at least, even if resolutely mediocre.

 

[saeed5646]

Those people are spot on.

------------------------

Batting stats of the last 2 years:


One way to do a quick comparison can be how far Pakistan is in batting and bowling against the top team in the last 2 years.


Pakistan batting is averaged 30 and the highest batting team avg was 40. Only 3 batting teams are far ahead of Pakistan.

View attachment 105707
......................................................

..

In bowling, it's a horrible picture,

Bowling stats of the last 2 years:

The top bowling side averaged around 20, but Pakistan's average is almost double and touching 40. Pakistan is in the last spot and all teams have a better bowling average in the last 2 years.

View attachment 105708


Simply said, Pakistan has been scoring 300 runs per inning. Not great, but not too bad, but bowlers have been giving around 400 runs per inning. You can hardly win much if bowlers give 400 runs in each inning.

Now, you can argue about dropping catches, but have you seen how many catches India and Aus dropped in this ongoing series? yet, Indians are averaging near 20. I don't think it's just about fielding here. Pakistani bowling looks toothless. talent talk is nonsense. You can not put inexperienced bowlers in test match and expect them to know how to set up batsmen. They need to play first-class cricket.

batting average is massively flawed .
1}how many matches have pakistan played "against top side"during that time at home(pak or uae)
2)did not india batting average is higher due to home series against sa while pakistan have none against any of eng,nz ,Sa or aus .
3)it would have been fair comparison if pakistan vs sa test series 2021 is completed

 

[saeed5646]

Those people are spot on.

------------------------

Batting stats of the last 2 years:


One way to do a quick comparison can be how far Pakistan is in batting and bowling against the top team in the last 2 years.


Pakistan batting is averaged 30 and the highest batting team avg was 40. Only 3 batting teams are far ahead of Pakistan.

View attachment 105707
......................................................

..

In bowling, it's a horrible picture,

Bowling stats of the last 2 years:

The top bowling side averaged around 20, but Pakistan's average is almost double and touching 40. Pakistan is in the last spot and all teams have a better bowling average in the last 2 years.

View attachment 105708


Simply said, Pakistan has been scoring 300 runs per inning. Not great, but not too bad, but bowlers have been giving around 400 runs per inning. You can hardly win much if bowlers give 400 runs in each inning.

Now, you can argue about dropping catches, but have you seen how many catches India and Aus dropped in this ongoing series? yet, Indians are averaging near 20. I don't think it's just about fielding here. Pakistani bowling looks toothless. talent talk is nonsense. You can not put inexperienced bowlers in test match and expect them to know how to set up batsmen. They need to play first-class cricket.

batting average is massively flawed .
1}how many matches have pakistan played "against top side"during that time at home(pak or uae)
2)did not india batting average is higher due to home series against sa while pakistan have none against any of eng,nz ,Sa or aus .
3)it would have been fair comparison if pakistan vs sa test series 2021 is completed

this is more fair comparison if we leave out india home series against top side due to pakistan zero series against top side at home from last 2 years
https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...span;team=6;team=7;template=results;type=team

 

[Mamoon]

We are rubbish in all three departments but the batting is relatively better right now.

There is a better chance of Pakistan fluking it’s way to 300-350 against a good attack rather than the bowlers getting the opposition out for less than 300.

 

[Shoaib88]

batting average is massively flawed .
1}how many matches have pakistan played "against top side"during that time at home(pak or uae)
2)did not india batting average is higher due to home series against sa while pakistan have none against any of eng,nz ,Sa or aus .
3)it would have been fair comparison if pakistan vs sa test series 2021 is completed

Partially agreed. Firstly, these stats should always be divided in two parts - Home and Away. Secondly, same applies to Pakistan too. Thirdly, Pakistan is probably better in UAE and English conditions than the Pakistani conditions. I really hope they produce some lively pitches for Saffa series and not like the ones we had pre 2008.

 

[Majid Khan]

Batting v Bowling from the Pakistan team is equally poor and embarrassing , and it has been for years now.

I’ve lost count the number of times I’ve had the feeling whenever Pakistan team plays against any half decent opposition, and when they bat that it feels like a bowler friendly wicket as conditions are not easy for batsmen with the ball moving and darting around opening up their techniques left right and centre - and start to feel sorry for the poor chaps (“bechaaray”).

And then as soon as the Pakistani bowlers come on and it’s the oppositions turn to bat , the feelings change - it’s clearly now a batting paradise and you feel sorry for the bowlers (“bechaaray”) who are sweating and toiling hard bowling long spells but it’s clear that nothing is in their favour due to the batting conditions as opposition batsmen are playing so freely and confidently , each batsman playing with ease.

And then after a while you realise maybe it’s not the pitch or conditions to blame - maybe these “becharay” are just not good enough with bat or ball?

This leaves fielding and running between the wickets , now that’s always been a strength of the Pakistan cricket team, hasn’t it ?

 

[Titan24]

There is a better chance of Pakistan fluking it’s way to 300-350 against a good attack rather than the bowlers getting the opposition out for less than 300.

Its definitely the case the way it has been going for sometime now.

 

[Buffet]

batting average is massively flawed .

You can ignore the relative performance of Pakistan against others. Just look at how Pakistani batsmen and bowlers did in the same pitch/conditions where bowlers also bowled.

Batting scored 300 and bowlers gave around 400 runs in each inning. Same pitch.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

Batting v Bowling from the Pakistan team is equally poor and embarrassing , and it has been for years now.

I’ve lost count the number of times I’ve had the feeling whenever Pakistan team plays against any half decent opposition, and when they bat that it feels like a bowler friendly wicket as conditions are not easy for batsmen with the ball moving and darting around opening up their techniques left right and centre - and start to feel sorry for the poor chaps (“bechaaray”).

And then as soon as the Pakistani bowlers come on and it’s the oppositions turn to bat , the feelings change - it’s clearly now a batting paradise and you feel sorry for the bowlers (“bechaaray”) who are sweating and toiling hard bowling long spells but it’s clear that nothing is in their favour due to the batting conditions as opposition batsmen are playing so freely and confidently , each batsman playing with ease.

And then after a while you realise maybe it’s not the pitch or conditions to blame - maybe these “becharay” are just not good enough with bat or ball?

This leaves fielding and running between the wickets , now that’s always been a strength of the Pakistan cricket team, hasn’t it ?

Agree to a large extent but if we get granular, we can clearly see that our pace bowlers DID create chances. KW was dropped once and that was it.

Bowlers can only do so much.

KW is not gonna give you 5 chances and we hope to latch onto one. This is a test match and he is a good batsman. He is not gonna give it to you in a platter. This is not T20.

And then the inexperienced captain was not intelligent enough to FREAKING GO FOR A REVIEW when KW was struck on the pads. The logic is very simple. KW was a big fish who was solid and scoring runs. When the bowlers aren’t doing much then YOU TAKE YOUR CHANCE ON DRS REVIEW.
You have three DRS, freaking TAKE ONE!

What we seriously lack in bowling that is obvious, is a good potent spinner. Someone who can take a wicket or two in the top middle order right away and dent the opposition bating line, just as Ashwin did for India in the second test.

Yasir Shah has such a cringe worthy and sarcastic smile as if he is laughing at the Pakistani fans and selectors, telling them, “Hey fools, look what kinda third class spinner like myself have you guys selected for this test match. Am I the best you guys could find? BTW take a look at my belly, HAHAHAHA”


IMO, Pace bowlers did the best according to their skill and ability. Naseem who is getting a lot of stick here on PP, also bowled a few very good deliveries. We simply didn’t capitalize on the chances in the field.

But the pathetic batting quality of our top order is at an altogether different level. This is our weakest of the weakest department.
There is no excuse at all.
You can’t say. “If the batsman had it reviewed he would’ve been saved” or he got unlucky because the fielder took an out of the world catch or the ball ricocheted with the bowler’s hand and hit the non-striker’s stump etc.

I mean, these guys just fall like flies.

You had a pair of ducks to start the second innings, so we actually played with 9 players. And then our tail end batters bat as if they are playing cricket reserved for mental ret@ds.

Together with bringing solidity in the top order (which no one seems to know how to?) there is a dire need that our tail end batters (who are our bowlers) should work on their batting skills and improve at least 10%

IMO, our pace bowling is something that surely needs improvement; however, we can live with it - but our batting quality is absolutely pathetic.

What do you say? Should we bring back Hafeez into the test side?

 

[Shazzam]

Funny how a coach is supposed to help fix all these things.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

Funny how a coach is supposed to help fix all these things.

Then why waste $200,000.00 a year on coach's salary if he can't help fix it? Why don't we use this money to play lotto and take a chance at hitting a jackpot or perhaps just throw the money out of a running car window?

 

[Last Monetarist]

We really are in trouble if there are still posters that think our bowlers did a decent job in the first test and that it was only the catching that prevented them from bowling New Zealand out on a greentop. It's boneheaded cluelessness.

 

[UzmanBeast]

As we all know, post champions trophy 2017, Pakistan has sucked in all formats and in all aspects of cricket. However, things have gone significantly south since Misbah has taken over (my opinion).

We keep reaching new lows every time we play. The recent Shaheens match against domestic B team in New Zealand was cherry in top. We played all the hyped future talents in that match and got smashed by 9 wickets with more than half of the overs remaining in our strongest format.

As we are currently terrible in all aspects, my question is which aspect is the current pakistani team worst in- batting, bowling or fielding? The reason for this question is very important. This will help narrow down the grassroot problem Pakistan cricket faces once we compare how we used to fare in this aspect in the past and what has changed.

Thanks for the thread.

Firstly, a lot of people know that the CT17, which should have been a signal to the board to invest in youngsters, who inevitably carried us to victory. We invested a lot on young bowlers for the white-ball formats, but with the likes of Misbah and YK just recently closing their test careers (or after the tournament), we never invested in batsmen who could serve us across all formats. That was our first mistake, not investing in young batsmen who could carry the team forward.

Our bowling was looking really good in 2018 with a lot of variety with the likes of Hasan Ali, Usman Shinwari, Mohammad Amir, Junaid Khan, etc. However, those were the white-ball formats, we were struggling to find good pacers for test cricket. At that time period, and even earlier, perhaps from 2016 onwards, Yasir Shah was carrying the bowling in UAE, so pacers weren't really stressed upon. That was a huge mistake, because if we had got some bowlers into the team at that point, we might have had a better bowling attack now. Junaid Khan in my mind should have been in our test team from that point, but the management completely forgot about him. He had a lot to offer in test cricket.

Our lack of investment in batting was put in the back of the minds when Babar started to shine from late 2018 onwards, and with not many other batsmen around him, we'd often find ourselves failing to chase large targets. We also were unable to perform well in test matches with declining forms of Azhar Ali and Asad Shafiq, and with no youth introduced earlier, we were approaching a great downfall in the format.

Fast forward to 2019-2020 where our team was literally in shambles. We had a few bowlers rise and others fade away. Babar became a huge part of the team and we made dramatic changes under the leadership of Misbah, some decisions which inevitably cost us a lot of series and matches. The squad selections became worse, and it got to the point where we made illogical decisions without even considering the repercussions of our poor squad selection on team performance.

Now it's 2021, and we are still not out of the thorns yet. Our batting needs new faces, our bowling desperately needs experience, and we haven't even developed a spinner for all formats.

There was no planning when we won the CT17 and it has cost us in the long run.

Looking into 2021, a few goals that we should set regarding our players are:
1. Either develop Shadab as a batting all-rounder or bowling all-rounder. This in-between fantasy needs to end. If he is a batting-all rounder, give Usman Qadir a go in white-ball cricket.
2. Introduce Zafar Gohar/Sajid Khan to the test team to replace Yasir Shah when his time is up.
3. Introduce Hasan Ali into tests first and then ODI cricket.
4. Work with Faheem Ashraf on his batting and bowling to make him an all-rounder for all formats.
5. Introduce 2 good, young batsmen from domestic into the test team.

That's what we should look to do.

At the moment, our fielding is poor, our batting is weak, and our bowling is inexperienced to sum everything up.

 

[Mobashir]

For me it's the fielding.

 

[Hasan123]

Our bowling is actually depressing. Most of the bowlers don’t know how to set up batters, are clueless when a long partnership is built, and some even have fitness issues.

 

[Majid Khan]

Agree to a large extent but if we get granular, we can clearly see that our pace bowlers DID create chances. KW was dropped once and that was it.

Bowlers can only do so much.

KW is not gonna give you 5 chances and we hope to latch onto one. This is a test match and he is a good batsman. He is not gonna give it to you in a platter. This is not T20.

And then the inexperienced captain was not intelligent enough to FREAKING GO FOR A REVIEW when KW was struck on the pads. The logic is very simple. KW was a big fish who was solid and scoring runs. When the bowlers aren’t doing much then YOU TAKE YOUR CHANCE ON DRS REVIEW.
You have three DRS, freaking TAKE ONE!

What we seriously lack in bowling that is obvious, is a good potent spinner. Someone who can take a wicket or two in the top middle order right away and dent the opposition bating line, just as Ashwin did for India in the second test.

Yasir Shah has such a cringe worthy and sarcastic smile as if he is laughing at the Pakistani fans and selectors, telling them, “Hey fools, look what kinda third class spinner like myself have you guys selected for this test match. Am I the best you guys could find? BTW take a look at my belly, HAHAHAHA”


IMO, Pace bowlers did the best according to their skill and ability. Naseem who is getting a lot of stick here on PP, also bowled a few very good deliveries. We simply didn’t capitalize on the chances in the field.

But the pathetic batting quality of our top order is at an altogether different level. This is our weakest of the weakest department.
There is no excuse at all.
You can’t say. “If the batsman had it reviewed he would’ve been saved” or he got unlucky because the fielder took an out of the world catch or the ball ricocheted with the bowler’s hand and hit the non-striker’s stump etc.

I mean, these guys just fall like flies.

You had a pair of ducks to start the second innings, so we actually played with 9 players. And then our tail end batters bat as if they are playing cricket reserved for mental ret@ds.

Together with bringing solidity in the top order (which no one seems to know how to?) there is a dire need that our tail end batters (who are our bowlers) should work on their batting skills and improve at least 10%

IMO, our pace bowling is something that surely needs improvement; however, we can live with it - but our batting quality is absolutely pathetic.

What do you say? Should we bring back Hafeez into the test side?

Agree , yes let’s bring back Hafeez into the test team - at least he made Pakistan team worth watching when the opposition pace bowlers had a new red cherry in their hand and three slips lined up. Babar Azam being absent makes you realise how substandard the rest of the batsmen are.

And sarcasm and pessimism put to one side, just reading your points about what the batting and bowling are lacking and the remedies for it - nothing has changed in 20 years, it’s been the same problems repeated on loop with fans/commentators/former players proposing the same solutions but nothing changes somehow.

I’m now about as optimistic about seeing Pakistan cricket compete with the best as I am about the Pakistan hockey or even the football team.

Only thing that keeps me interested still is individual brilliance every now and again , to see that once a decade superstar in Pakistan cricket that gets recognised among the worlds best , Babar Azam it is in this era - hope he lives up to his potential.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Babar Azam
Rizwan
Shaheen
Shadab


These 4 are quality.

Add In Faheem for balance.

Add Hasan

Add another good young talent like Gul and Pakistan will be real good.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

For those who said, bowling was our worst aspect.
83/4 before lunch on first day of the second test.

And you want our bowlers to win us the games. By doing what? Get all NZ team out under 100?

 

[Ellipsism]

Shaheen is our only test class bowler.

In terms of batsman we at least have Rizwan and Babar.

Bowling is definitely our weakest point.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

Shaheen is our only test class bowler.

In terms of batsman we at least have Rizwan and Babar.

Bowling is definitely our weakest point.

The weak point in our bowling attack is the missing of a good and potent spinner.
A good spinner immediately gets you a wicket or two to dent the opposition batting line (as Ashwin does for India), and pacers mostly do the clean up job together with inflicting some damage in the start of the innings by removing one or two top order batsmen.

We seriously lack a good spinner in the bowling department but our pace bowling isn't that bad.

It's the batting, specially the top order. And then our tail end batsmen do not know how to hold a bat properly.

 

[Rana]

Silly management

Harris Sohail was a terrible selection for the 2nd Test. Easily the biggest coward we have selected to represent Pakistan in recent history if not ever.

 

[Hyperion66]

Now again batters are playing their hearts out to put up a respectable figure which will most probably be ruined by their bowlers and some posters will have to go to extreme length to prove how batting is the problem.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

Now again batters are playing their hearts out to put up a respectable figure which will most probably be ruined by their bowlers and some posters will have to go to extreme length to prove how batting is the problem.

Lack of a good spinner and dropped catches usually hurt us more than the quality of pace bowling.

 

[Buffet]

Now again batters are playing their hearts out to put up a respectable figure which will most probably be ruined by their bowlers and some posters will have to go to extreme length to prove how batting is the problem.

Won't surprise me if that happens.

 

[Ellipsism]

Lack of a good spinner and dropped catches usually hurt us more than the quality of pace bowling.

The spinner has nearly zero role in NZ.

You simply aren’t gonna take 20 wickets when your bowling hopes are pinned on a single bowler who hasn’t even played 15 test matches.

Abbas is too slow now to trouble anyone and Naseem at less than 140 is completely useless.