Who's the greater captain between MS Dhoni and Imran Khan?

[Deewana]

Pakistan's greatest captain vs arguably India's greatest captain !
Who was better?

Though statistically Dhoni won more trophies but one has to remember that during Imran's era their was only 1 ICC Trophy (i.e. World Cup) But During Dhoni's era Their were 3 ICC Trophies.

 

[Buffet]

Two clear favorites based on formats. Test IK and ODI Dhoni.

 

[Bilal7]

Dhoni is rated as a poor captain even by Indian cricket fans who were exuberant when Kohli replaced him. Dhoni has always been a defensive captain who couldn't manage pace bowlers and relied on his spinners choking the opposing batsmen into making mistakes. This tactic worked in ODIs but not in tests.

Imran Khan was a leader rather than simply a captain. Unlike Dhoni, he did not get to captain Pakistan's most talented side but rather made the likes of Ramiz Raja into World Cup winners. He's hailed as a legendary captain even by Indian cricket fans.

Dhoni is severely outmatched here. The best Pakistani captain to compare him to would be Misbah.

 

[Sachin136]

Dhoni is rated as a poor captain even by Indian cricket fans who were exuberant when Kohli replaced him. Dhoni has always been a defensive captain who couldn't manage pace bowlers and relied on his spinners choking the opposing batsmen into making mistakes. This tactic worked in ODIs but not in tests.

Imran Khan was a leader rather than simply a captain. Unlike Dhoni, he did not get to captain Pakistan's most talented side but rather made the likes of Ramiz Raja into World Cup winners. He's hailed as a legendary captain even by Indian cricket fans.

Dhoni is severely outmatched here. The best Pakistani captain to compare him to would be Misbah.

I am not sure where you heard that. Most Indians (and people all over the world) rate Dhoni as a brilliant ODI captain. Some were happy at him being replaced by Kohli not because of his captaincy but because Dhoni is strecthing his career too long. Even now, Dhoni handles a lot of the on-field captaincy.

Misbah and Dhoni are not comparable as LOI captains.

 

[troodon]

Two clear favorites based on formats. Test IK and ODI Dhoni.

India never even had a half decent bowling attack under MSD in Tests. It's not his fault that he had to switch to defensive tactics most of the time.

Imran always had great fast bowlers under his disposal. So it's easy to attack and win more matches.

In ODI's what Dhoni achieved with mediocre attacks is truly astonishing.

I say MSD is the greatest ODI captain ever. His tactics of drying up runs and putting pressure on opposing batsmen with terrible bowlers under his belt is stuff of legends.

Tests - IK

Odi's - MSD

 

[Ab Fan]

MSD is not a great test captain at the first place and nowhere near India's best test captain.

In odis though, not many can match the leadership and tactical ability of MSD.

On topic, its quite clear:-

Tests- Imran
Odis- MSD

Anyways, I see a lot of potential in this thread to emerge a blockbuster one. So people can carry on.

 

[Tusker]

India never even had a half decent bowling attack under MSD in Tests. It's not his fault that he had to switch to defensive tactics most of the time.

Still won more Test matches than Imran ever did ... MSD remains the *ONLY* captain to White wash the Aussies twice at home !!

 

[3rdWheel]

Let us look at what each of them achieved for their respective countries :

1- Imran Khan

-ODI World Cup
-Multiple Test Series victory over India
-Drew Test Series in Australia
-Hammered New Zealand everywhere
-Good records against England, West Indies and South Africa
-Took Pakistan to no.1 (If I'm not mistaken)

2- MS Dhoni

-T20 World Cup
-ODI World Cup
-Asia Cup
-Champions Trophy
-No.1 ODI Team
-No.1 Test Team
-India were on top of Pakistan

Even a blind person will go with MS Dhoni. The greatest thing happened to the world of Cricket

 

[Third_Umpire]

Immi, for his outsized influence on Pakistan cricket. From picking diamonds in the rough like Wasim and Waqar, to keeping a rag tag team together and making it a world champion, he did it all.

MS is Mr. Cool, won many big matches. But he had more support, better players at his disposal and a more functional board.

 

[Stewie]

Dhoni always relies on battingvputting a huge score and then stifling the opposition with spinners and getting them to make mistakes. Kind of a one trick pony who fails when batting fails or wicket is not aiding spinners.
A brilliant captain is one who knows how to Marshall his bowlers and set fields and fight when batting puts up a low score, something Imran had to several times during his career.

He also introduced tons of new strategies in the game. He was a pioneer of reverse swing. He played a leggie in ODIs and before him nobody had done that.

I don't think there is any comparison here. Imran is miles ahead of dhoni and ganguly and a more apt comparison will be between him and border or Taylor who were brilliant astute and fortune changing captains for their teams like Imran.

 

[thehub]

Both captain's are slightly overrated by respective fans. But I would take Dhoni over Imran as he has achieved a lot with mediocre bowlers like Ishant, rpsingh,etc. Made India one of the top teams and thrashed their arch rivals for fun everywhere.

 

[Tusker]

Dhoni always relies on battingvputting a huge score and then stifling the opposition with spinners and getting them to make mistakes. Kind of a one trick pony who fails when batting fails or wicket is not aiding spinners.
A brilliant captain is one who knows how to Marshall his bowlers and set fields and fight when batting puts up a low score, something Imran had to several times during his career.

T20 WC Final - 2007
T20 KO vs SAF - 2007
T20 Group game vs
ICC - CT 2013
Lords Test - 2013
....
.....

Try finding as many low scoring big matches that Imran won ... that too with crap bowlers lol

 

[Stewie]

T20 WC Final - 2007
T20 KO vs SAF - 2007
T20 Group game vs
ICC - CT 2013
Lords Test - 2013
....
.....

Try finding as many low scoring big matches that Imran won ... that too with crap bowlers lol

So you are going to compare t 20 performances with tests and ODIs now?

If you want to compare genuine cricket skills test cricket is it... PERIOD... or 50 overs to an extent... what's Dhonis record overseas in tests when he doesn't have spin friendly pitches to rely on?

 

[Bilal7]

I am not sure where you heard that. Most Indians (and people all over the world) rate Dhoni as a brilliant ODI captain. Some were happy at him being replaced by Kohli not because of his captaincy but because Dhoni is strecthing his career too long. Even now, Dhoni handles a lot of the on-field captaincy.

Misbah and Dhoni are not comparable as LOI captains.

I was talking about tests where he is has always been a poor captain. Misbah is a better test captain while Dhoni is a better ODI captain.

 

[Robert]

IK played in an era were there were a lot of drawn matches. Batters had tighter defences because there was less pressure to score fast. Crease occupation was more important.

He took a shambolic PAK side and made it into a war machine which won in India and England and gave even WI a fright in their own yard. He was tactically better than Dhoni, more aggressive and I think he was a better man-manager too.

 

[ExpressPacer]

I'm sorry but this thread is comedic and Indian fans are you he biggest bunch of hypocrites you'll ever see. Extremely biased. Dhoni is not even worth the dirt on Imran Khan's 30 year old spikes. IK played at a time when. Most Tests were drawn, fewer matches were played and his rivals were ATG captains themselves. Heck, IK didn't even go on easy tours while Dhoni was captaining his team vs Zimbabwe until a few months ago. Mods please take this thread down because Dhoni will never be a percent of the man or captain IK was. You can simply see that through the fact that Imran Khan was never forced to retire from captaincy because of a stupendous talent like Wasim whereas all cricketing greats IN India and abroad were calling for MSD's head until just recently.

MSD had the disposal of a great team, IK on the other hand turned a bunch of minnow, massively under talented nobody's into some of the greatest cricketers to have played the game. Yes. You heard me. Most of you lads weren't born until late in the 80's so I seriously doubt you had the experience of watching Imran Khan captain. None of the bowlers were world beaters except Wasim, even who IK turned into a good bowler because of his guidance.

Imran Khans's greatness can be seen through the mere fact that he's a part of most ATG XI's AS captain and was asked by the military dictator of the country (who was a religious fanatic) to return to the team despite IK being famous for his playboy and asymmetrical to Islam lifestyle. Such was his greatness as captain. Please think before making such a stupid comparison.

 

[Hitman]

I'm sorry but this thread is comedic and Indian fans are you he biggest bunch of hypocrites you'll ever see. Extremely biased. Dhoni is not even worth the dirt on Imran Khan's 30 year old spikes. IK played at a time when. Most Tests were drawn, fewer matches were played and his rivals were ATG captains themselves. Heck, IK didn't even go on easy tours while Dhoni was captaining his team vs Zimbabwe until a few months ago. Mods please take this thread down because Dhoni will never be a percent of the man or captain IK was. You can simply see that through the fact that Imran Khan was never forced to retire from captaincy because of a stupendous talent like Wasim whereas all cricketing greats IN India and abroad were calling for MSD's head until just recently.

MSD had the disposal of a great team, IK on the other hand turned a bunch of minnow, massively under talented nobody's into some of the greatest cricketers to have played the game. Yes. You heard me. Most of you lads weren't born until late in the 80's so I seriously doubt you had the experience of watching Imran Khan captain. None of the bowlers were world beaters except Wasim, even who IK turned into a good bowler because of his guidance.

Imran Khans's greatness can be seen through the mere fact that he's a part of most ATG XI's AS captain and was asked by the military dictator of the country (who was a religious fanatic) to return to the team despite IK being famous for his playboy and asymmetrical to Islam lifestyle. Such was his greatness as captain. Please think before making such a stupid comparison.

Like Geoff Boycott's ATG XI, then?

 

[IMMY69]

I think is churlish to compare them in ODI's.

IK was captain of the ODI side in a completely different era and therr have been far too many changes in ODI's since then.

 

[Hasan123]

I would go with Imran Khan.

 

[Buffet]

India never even had a half decent bowling attack under MSD in Tests. It's not his fault that he had to switch to defensive tactics most of the time.

That may be true, but I never saw Dhoni using pacers properly in the test format. He was just an average captain in the test format, but probably the best in history of ODI format. Indians would have not achieved even half of what they achieved without his captaincy in shorter format. You will see how it goes in future.

 

[Tusker]

So you are going to compare t 20 performances with tests and ODIs now?

Read the OP ... it clearly mentions ICC Trophies and not tests.

If you want to compare genuine cricket skills test cricket is it... PERIOD... or 50 overs to an extent... what's Dhonis record overseas in tests when he doesn't have spin friendly pitches to rely on?

All formats are important. And in Ind/Pak Tests are the least favourite format. You can pretending otherwise but this is the harsh truth.

And what makes you think Imran didn't get favourable pitches made at home ?

In anycase Dhoni won 6 Test matches away compared to Imran's 5. Its not like Imran won a boat loads of Test matches away from home despite having some legendary bowling resources in his team.

 

[Mirpur express]

Dhoni has achieved a lot but Khan is Khan the greatest captaan of all.

 

[thehub]

Dhoni has achieved a lot but Khan is Khan the greatest captaan of all.

With No stats to back up. Same Khan fans would throw the stats when discussion is about best all rounder.

 

[CricFan2012]

Since I despise the test format and consider it an abomination in the way of crickets success and longevity, ill go with Dhoni, ODIs are more important.

 

[Stewie]

Read the OP ... it clearly mentions ICC Trophies and not tests.



All formats are important. And in Ind/Pak Tests are the least favourite format. You can pretending otherwise but this is the harsh truth.

And what makes you think Imran didn't get favourable pitches made at home ?

In anycase Dhoni won 6 Test matches away compared to Imran's 5. Its not like Imran won a boat loads of Test matches away from home despite having some legendary bowling resources in his team.

Just because India doesn't play Pakistan in tests you can't claim it so. Last time we played you at your home in tests, the stadia were packed.

And whatever the thread title says is beside the point: tests are the ultimate skill "test" for any cricketer.

 

[Stewie]

Read the OP ... it clearly mentions ICC Trophies and not tests.



All formats are important. And in Ind/Pak Tests are the least favourite format. You can pretending otherwise but this is the harsh truth.

And what makes you think Imran didn't get favourable pitches made at home ?

In anycase Dhoni won 6 Test matches away compared to Imran's 5. Its not like Imran won a boat loads of Test matches away from home despite having some legendary bowling resources in his team.

Is it the number or the win loss ratio that's important? What's dhonis win/loss ratio vs Imran's win/loss ratio in away tests?

It's not Imran's fault there was not much cricket played during that era. That's like claiming tendulkar or dravid were better batsmen than headman because they have more runs.. look at the damn averages.

 

[Tusker]

Just because India doesn't play Pakistan in tests you can't claim it so. Last time we played you at your home in tests, the stadia were packed.

Is that why there was no big celebrations when Pak won a test series in WI for the first time in more than 50 yrs ? Compare that to the recent CT win and you will get the hint. And no the grounds aren't always full even in Ind-Pak test matches.

And whatever the thread title says is beside the point: tests are the ultimate skill "test" for any cricketer.

If that was the case ... then soo many Test greats would not have had ordinary ODI records ... for example Cook, Boycott, Gavaskar, Pujara etc etc .... only the true greats will do well in all formats.

 

[Stewie]

Is that why there was no big celebrations when Pak won a test series in WI for the first time in more than 50 yrs ? Compare that to the recent CT win and you will get the hint. And no the grounds aren't always full even in Ind-Pak test matches.



If that was the case ... then soo many Test greats would not have had ordinary ODI records ... for example Cook, Boycott, Gavaskar, Pujara etc etc .... only the true greats will do well in all formats.

The true test will always be tests. You can believe what you want. Besides it's not like Imran did bad in ODIs either. Point is if ODI performances are comparable you go with tests.

But we are talking about captaincy here and not performance as a player. You argument may have some weight for the latter, certainly not the former. How good you are as captain always gets judged by your record in tests.

But we can throw around all the numbers and criteria for getting those numbers: at the end of the day you judge a captain by what he achieved for his team and how he lead them.

where imran was lucky was he had the best bowlers available to him and he was himself a great bowler. It may come down to how he single handed was responsible for picking them, we all know his history as a dictator in charge. Just because of those two features of his era as captain, he had a big advantage as captain because bowlers win test matches. Not batsmen. Especially away from the subcontinent you need bowlers who can take 20 wickets in unfamiliar conditions.

And this is where dhoni is at a significant disadvantage, because he could not get the same results from his bowlers outside the subcontinent as he did at home, where the wickets aided him. His overseas record is atrocious.

So it's a rather subjective thing: I don't thInk Pakistanis and Indians can ever convince each other on this topic.

 

[PakLFC]

Imran Khan towers over Dhoni. It's not even close.

 

[yasir]

Two clear favorites based on formats. Test IK and ODI Dhoni.

That is about right. They both were great Captain!!

 

[Billy1999]

I think Imran was the better captain.

Made Players as well as being a top captain.

 

[Tusker]

The true test will always be tests. You can believe what you want. Besides it's not like Imran did bad in ODIs either. Point is if ODI performances are comparable you go with tests.

Believing is one thing but substantiating that belief thru irrefutable facts is a different matter all together ... as it stands it is very plain and obvious that a Great Test match player will not automatically succeed in ODIs nor is the reverse true. therefore you cannot claim that Testmatches are a true measure of cricketing skills. Very select bunch of cricketers will excel in both formats. Don't even bother trying to refute it. Therefore your assumption that Test Cricket being superior to all other formats is flawed. Especially when we consider factors such as popularity.

But we are talking about captaincy here and not performance as a player. You argument may have some weight for the latter, certainly not the former. How good you are as captain always gets judged by your record in tests.

But we can throw around all the numbers and criteria for getting those numbers: at the end of the day you judge a captain by what he achieved for his team and how he lead them.

where imran was lucky was he had the best bowlers available to him and he was himself a great bowler. It may come down to how he single handed was responsible for picking them, we all know his history as a dictator in charge. Just because of those two features of his era as captain, he had a big advantage as captain because bowlers win test matches. Not batsmen. Especially away from the subcontinent you need bowlers who can take 20 wickets in unfamiliar conditions.

And this is where dhoni is at a significant disadvantage, because he could not get the same results from his bowlers outside the subcontinent as he did at home, where the wickets aided him. His overseas record is atrocious.

So it's a rather subjective thing: I don't thInk Pakistanis and Indians can ever convince each other on this topic.

How a Captain leads during adversity is a true measure of leadership and strategic thinking skills. Despite being handicapped by pathetic bowlers Dhoni managed to win more Tests than Imran even overseas. For all the bowling riches that Imran had he has nothing spectacularly different results than MSD to show for in Tests.

 

[DRsohail]

Let us look at what each of them achieved for their respective countries :

1- Imran Khan

-ODI World Cup
-Multiple Test Series victory over India
-Drew Test Series in Australia
-Hammered New Zealand everywhere
-Good records against England, West Indies and South Africa
-Took Pakistan to no.1 (If I'm not mistaken)

2- MS Dhoni

-T20 World Cup
-ODI World Cup
-Asia Cup
-Champions Trophy
-No.1 ODI Team
-No.1 Test Team
-India were on top of Pakistan

Even a blind person will go with MS Dhoni. The greatest thing happened to the world of Cricket

look at ur comparison and then conclusion.mind boggling ....for tests it is imran miles ahead of all asian captains..for odi it is MS no doubts....but ik wasnt that bad in odi as dhoni was in tests,,

 

[DRsohail]

Let us look at what each of them achieved for their respective countries :

1- Imran Khan

-ODI World Cup
-Multiple Test Series victory over India
-Drew Test Series in Australia
-Hammered New Zealand everywhere
-Good records against England, West Indies and South Africa
-Took Pakistan to no.1 (If I'm not mistaken)

2- MS Dhoni

-T20 World Cup
-ODI World Cup
-Asia Cup
-Champions Trophy
-No.1 ODI Team
-No.1 Test Team
-India were on top of Pakistan

Even a blind person will go with MS Dhoni. The greatest thing happened to the world of Cricket

but we are not blind..

 

[thehub]

Not sure why people here adding beating India or England in 80s as a big achievement by Imran. India and England were average teams in 80s, especially in test. Pakistan definitely had better bowlers than these two teams and decent batsmen.

Imran mainly had two things Windies series and world cup. He had luck playing big factor in both. Windies didn't have both Richards and Marshal in only match that they lost in that series. We all know about rain that helped pak in wc 92. Overall good achievement. No one is denying. Calling him as best ever by country mile in Asia is OTT by his cheerleaders.

 

[ExpressPacer]

Not sure why people here adding beating India or England in 80s as a big achievement by Imran. India and England were average teams in 80s, especially in test. Pakistan definitely had better bowlers than these two teams and decent batsmen.

Imran mainly had two things Windies series and world cup. He had luck playing big factor in both. Windies didn't have both Richards and Marshal in only match that they lost in that series. We all know about rain that helped pak in wc 92. Overall good achievement. No one is denying. Calling him as best ever by country mile in Asia is OTT by his cheerleaders.

Frankly, Imran Khan is 100 times the captain Dhoni will ever be simply for that WI series.

 

[DRsohail]

Frankly, Imran Khan is 100 times the captain Dhoni will ever be simply for that WI series.

they even dont know that imran lost one match to south africa in 92 due to rain.....

 

[pakistan cricket fan]

If Imran has a worst record 8 - 0 overseas trashing then Dhoni is better otherwise not.

 

[Stewie]

Believing is one thing but substantiating that belief thru irrefutable facts is a different matter all together ... as it stands it is very plain and obvious that a Great Test match player will not automatically succeed in ODIs nor is the reverse true. therefore you cannot claim that Testmatches are a true measure of cricketing skills. Very select bunch of cricketers will excel in both formats. Don't even bother trying to refute it. Therefore your assumption that Test Cricket being superior to all other formats is flawed. Especially when we consider factors such as popularity.



How a Captain leads during adversity is a true measure of leadership and strategic thinking skills. Despite being handicapped by pathetic bowlers Dhoni managed to win more Tests than Imran even overseas. For all the bowling riches that Imran had he has nothing spectacularly different results than MSD to show for in Tests.

Nobody is telling you to believe what I believe in by the same token you cannot pass your own belief as a universal law of this world.

True test of a cricketer and as a captain remains in test cricket. This is my belief and that of hundreds of cricket experts. You can continue to believe what you want to believe and like I stated earlier this is a debate nobody will be willing to concede. However, I am heartened by the fact more neutral people here such as Robert tend to agree with my opinion more than yours.

 

[Tusker]

Nobody is telling you to believe what I believe in by the same token you cannot pass your own belief as a universal law of this world.

True test of a cricketer and as a captain remains in test cricket. This is my belief and that of hundreds of cricket experts. You can continue to believe what you want to believe and like I stated earlier this is a debate nobody will be willing to concede. However, I am heartened by the fact more neutral people here such as Robert tend to agree with my opinion more than yours. ��

Yeah they also run away when confronted with facts .... which is what you will do in a short while because you have no logical explanation or other facts to back up your theories. What you are saying about Test Cricket used to be true back in 1970. However we are now in 2017. And in 2017 Test cricket survives because of donations from ODI + T20 Cricket or did you think that the Crows that outnumber spectators in Abu Dhabi during Test matches paid decent money for the privileges of being on the ground ? lol

BTW I see you have quietly side stepped the topic of MSD having more Test wins than Imran (even overseas) despite having very poor bowlers.

The irony of this discussion is that Imran's biggest achievement is that ODI WC !!

 

[Abdullah719]

Yeah they also run away when confronted with facts .... which is what you will do in a short while because you have no logical explanation or other facts to back up your theories. What you are saying about Test Cricket used to be true back in 1970. However we are now in 2017. And in 2017 Test cricket survives because of donations from ODI + T20 Cricket or did you think that the Crows that outnumber spectators in Abu Dhabi during Test matches paid decent money for the privileges of being on the ground ? lol

BTW I see you have quietly side stepped the topic of MSD having more Test wins than Imran (even overseas) despite having very poor bowlers.

The irony of this discussion is that Imran's biggest achievement is that ODI WC !!

Are you saying that Dhoni was a better captain in Tests than IK?

Or is it just a battle of numbers....

 

[thehub]

Frankly, Imran Khan is 100 times the captain Dhoni will ever be simply for that WI series.

Why? Just because you say so. What special he did in that Windies test series? If it was special why he could not win a match as soon Windies main players like Richards and Marshall came back to the side? What to you think about Savrav's team which drew a series in Australia in 2004?

 

[thehub]

Are you saying that Dhoni was a better captain in Tests than IK?

Or is it just a battle of numbers....

His point is Dhoni's test stats are as good as imrans and on top of that dhoni has better odi stats. Hence Dhoni is better.

 

[Abdullah719]

His point is Dhoni's test stats are as good as imrans and on top of that dhoni has better odi stats. Hence Dhoni is better.

How so? Dhoni's away stats read 6 wins and 15 losses, IK 5 wins and 6 losses.

Anyway, this is just base stats; I recall a good number of Indian posters criticising Dhoni repeatedly for his tactics in Tests and calling him a very poor captain in the longest format, specifically away from home.

Anyway, it would be good if [MENTION=140401]Deewana[/MENTION] clarified which formats he meant this comparison for.

 

[Tusker]

Are you saying that Dhoni was a better captain in Tests than IK?

Or is it just a battle of numbers....

I don't segregate Tests and ODI's ... it doesnt work like that. MSD is an under-rated captain ... people have very myopic and short memories and tend to pick only those memories that suit their agenda. So for example people will conveniently pick Imrans performances against WI whereas not many realize that MSD has a better record vs Aussies - the best team of his times.

What I was saying is that for all the hype that Imran you would think that he won significantly more matches than MSD but that is not the case.

 

[thehub]

How so? Dhoni's away stats read 6 wins and 15 losses, IK 5 wins and 6 losses.

Anyway, this is just base stats; I recall a good number of Indian posters criticising Dhoni repeatedly for his tactics in Tests and calling him a very poor captain in the longest format, specifically away from home.

Anyway, it would be good if [MENTION=140401]Deewana[/MENTION] clarified which formats he meant this comparison for.

Let me ask you this. How can you call someone the best by country mile when he has won only 5 games outside. That's nothing. That too with two of the ATG bowlers playing in your side and you yourself is atg all rounder. With that talent you should have lot more.

 

[Stewie]

I don't segregate Tests and ODI's ... it doesnt work like that. MSD is an under-rated captain ... people have very myopic and short memories and tend to pick only those memories that suit their agenda. So for example people will conveniently pick Imrans performances against WI whereas not many realize that MSD has a better record vs Aussies - the best team of his times.

What I was saying is that for all the hype that Imran you would think that he won significantly more matches than MSD but that is not the case.

Brahman is to imran, that dravid is to dhoni.

Nobody side stepping anything. Read up my previous comments. Already addressed.

And you can claim all you want that test cricket is a relic. It is not. It will never be and it will always trump ODIs and t20.

Prime example is de villiers. Focused on t20s and lost all form. Same thing with Kohli. It is a proven fact that when cricketers play an abundance of t20 or limited over cricket they lose their skills. Test cricket keeps them polished.

You can claim all you want about crowd sizes and money blah blah blah but none of that disproves the point that ... and I'm repeating for the umpteenth time: test cricket is the true test of a cricketers skill and the peak of the game of cricket.

Pajama cricket is clown circus with sweater monkeys!

 

[thehub]

Letting India drawing a series in 89 in Pakistan shows how defensive and average he was as a captain. His speech in 92 wc showed he was selfish and can't be a true leader.

 

[Justcrazy]

Dhoni got a good team from Ganguly , If you have to thank someone for upliftment of Indian cricket it has to be Ganguly , not Dhoni.

Imran left a great Team , which under achieved , that is the legacy that he left.

 

[Stewie]

Dhoni got a good team from Ganguly , If you have to thank someone for upliftment of Indian cricket it has to be Ganguly , not Dhoni.

Imran left a great Team , which under achieved , that is the legacy that he left.

Pakistan actually achieved a lot in the 90s all the way up to early 2000s. The team he left was already full of players close to retiring but the others did pretty well. They got fairly close to winning the silverware in ODIs but were truly brilliant in test cricket. You can look at the stats and you will understand that.

And I agree that ganguly was the one who built the strong Indian team and was a far better captain than dhoni. Dhoni just cashed in all the hard work that ganguly out in.

 

[Tusker]

Prime example is de villiers. Focused on t20s and lost all form. Same thing with Kohli. It is a proven fact that when cricketers play an abundance of t20 or limited over cricket they lose their skills. Test cricket keeps them polished.

Yeah soo polished that Alastair Cook, Ballance, Bell, Pujara etc etc etc cannot even make it to the ODI squad hard as they may try.

 

[thehub]

Dhoni got a good team from Ganguly , If you have to thank someone for upliftment of Indian cricket it has to be Ganguly , not Dhoni.

Imran left a great Team , which under achieved , that is the legacy that he left.

I partly agree. Gangly was far better test captain than Dhoni in test. But in ODI Dhoni was in different level because of his calm nature during crisis situation.

That's were Dhoni beat Imran. Difference is huge in ODI whereas in test imho imran is better.

 

[Black Zero]

Dhoni

Even in Pakistan, there are several more successful captains ahead of IK.

 

[Tusker]

Dhoni got a good team from Ganguly , If you have to thank someone for upliftment of Indian cricket it has to be Ganguly , not Dhoni.

Imran left a great Team , which under achieved , that is the legacy that he left.

Wrong. It was Dravid and Kumble who were captains after Ganguly ... the team that MSD "inherited" had crashed and burned just 2-3 months before HE TOOK OVER in the 2007 WC .... short memories and all that.

 

[waleed88]

Pakistan actually achieved a lot in the 90s all the way up to early 2000s. The team he left was already full of players close to retiring but the others did pretty well. They got fairly close to winning the silverware in ODIs but were truly brilliant in test cricket. You can look at the stats and you will understand that.

And I agree that ganguly was the one who built the strong Indian team and was a far better captain than dhoni. Dhoni just cashed in all the hard work that ganguly out in.

Nice theory, only if this were true if Dravid hadn't captained the side for about 2 years, and the team was in really bad shape under his captaincy

 

[ExplicitAI]

The thing is that most of the tournament trophies Dhoni won didn't exist when Imran was playing. Dhoni was somewhat more successful than Imran in ODI's and even though Dhoni convincingly won an ODI world cup in 2011, Imran still managed to win one in 1992 when he was just an ok ODI captain. Tests matches Imran was miles better than Dhoni could've ever hoped for. Imran also made players such as Wasim, Waqar, Anwar, Inzi etc, so I'd have to say Imran still remains the greatest captain from Asia.

 

[Thomaskutty]

Dhoni has won everything under the sun. I won't take Imran's test achievement vs 80s Windies too seriously if Viv and Malcolm didn't play in that test as some posters have mentioned. These two were the backbone of that team.

This narrows it down to the 92 WC where we know rain helped him a lot. Personally I remember Imran as the man who kickstarted Pakistan's long losing streak vs India in world cup games.

 

[Buffet]

Pakistan actually achieved a lot in the 90s all the way up to early 2000s. The team he left was already full of players close to retiring but the others did pretty well. They got fairly close to winning the silverware in ODIs but were truly brilliant in test cricket. You can look at the stats and you will understand that.

And I agree that ganguly was the one who built the strong Indian team and was a far better captain than dhoni. Dhoni just cashed in all the hard work that ganguly out in.

Here are some home series losses for Pakistan in period you are calling the team brilliant,

Lost to SL (1995)

Lost to SA ( 1997)

Lost to Aus ( 1998)

Lost to Zim ( 1998)

Lost to SL (2000)

Lost to Eng ( 2000)

Lost to Ind ( 2004)


It was highly inconsistent team to be called brilliant. Some brilliant players , but underachieved it as team for sure.

 

[Buffet]

Dhoni has won everything under the sun. I won't take Imran's test achievement vs 80s Windies too seriously if Viv and Malcolm didn't play in that test as some posters have mentioned. These two were the backbone of that team.

This narrows it down to the 92 WC where we know rain helped him a lot. Personally I remember Imran as the man who kickstarted Pakistan's long losing streak vs India in world cup games.

Pakistan also did well against WI in home games. It was not easy to avoid loss against WI even at home.

 

[Stewie]

Here are some home series losses for Pakistan in period you are calling the team brilliant,

Lost to SL (1995)

Lost to SA ( 1997)

Lost to Aus ( 1998)

Lost to Zim ( 1998)

Lost to SL (2000)

Lost to Eng ( 2000)

Lost to Ind ( 2004)


It was highly inconsistent team to be called brilliant. Some brilliant players , but underachieved it as team for sure.

Have a look at this

http://www.espncricinfo.com/pakistan/content/story/1061345.html

Pakistan beat India in India in Asian test championship and won ODI series there. Pakistan also wo. Triangular in Australia and another bilateral series there in early 2000s
Pakistan were World Cup runners up in 99
To me Pakistan team successes in 90s and early 2000s were substantial.

 

[Tusker]

Dhoni has won everything under the sun. I won't take Imran's test achievement vs 80s Windies too seriously if Viv and Malcolm didn't play in that test as some posters have mentioned. These two were the backbone of that team.

This narrows it down to the 92 WC where we know rain helped him a lot. Personally I remember Imran as the man who kickstarted Pakistan's long losing streak vs India in world cup games.

Not just Viv and Marshall .. Lloyd, Roberts, Garner, Holding had all retired recently and Ambrose was playing in his 1st test.

Link: http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63481.html

The truth is Pakistan only played 3 Tests in WI during the 80s and they were all after those big names had retired.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...eam=7;template=results;type=team;view=results

 

[Tusker]

Have a look at this

http://www.espncricinfo.com/pakistan/content/story/1061345.html

Pakistan beat India in India in Asian test championship and won ODI series there. Pakistan also wo. Triangular in Australia and another bilateral series there in early 2000s
Pakistan were World Cup runners up in 99
To me Pakistan team successes in 90s and early 2000s were substantial.

Not if you lose Test series to Zim and SL at home .... do you realize that SL has never been able to Win a Single Test match In India (let alone a series ) ?

Guess where they have Won most Test matches in - Yep Pakistan !

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...orderby=won;team=8;template=results;type=team

 

[subshakerz]

Imran in tests quite easily. Dhoni has no real test achievements whasoever, he lacked faith in his team and once a team started dominating India, they would go limp quite easily. He often looked hopeless in the field. How can people forget that he was whitewashed twice in a row, lost to England at home and basically was known for a fairly defensive style of cricket. Not to mention that Ganguly built his team for him.

In ODIs, I would give Dhoni the edge, but let us not forget that Imran was pretty successful for his time, winning both the World Cup and the Nehru Cup (Champions Trophy of the time).

 

[subshakerz]

Not just Viv and Marshall .. Lloyd, Roberts, Garner, Holding had all retired recently and Ambrose was playing in his 1st test.

Link: http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63481.html

The truth is Pakistan only played 3 Tests in WI during the 80s and they were all after those big names had retired.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...eam=7;template=results;type=team;view=results

West Indies had Viv and Marshall in the 2nd and 3rd test of the series, and Pakistan should have won had the umpires not got in the way.

Even if WI were weakened compared to early 80s, they were still a superior team to Pakistan and Pakistan held them for three drawn series.

Beating England in England and India in India were significant achievements also. And Imran was unbeaten at home as well, and never was whitewashed, unlike Dhoni.

 

[Tusker]

West Indies had Viv and Marshall in the 2nd and 3rd test of the series, and Pakistan should have won had the umpires not got in the way.

A Pakistani fan should never talk about bad Umpiring .... it invariably backfires ... let me know if you really want to go down that route.

Even if WI were weakened compared to early 80s, they were still a superior team to Pakistan and Pakistan held them for three drawn series.

Well even India held them to a Draw in the 1987 home series ... so whats so great about Imran's achievement ?

Beating England in England and India in India were significant achievements also. And Imran was unbeaten at home as well, and never was whitewashed, unlike Dhoni.

Imran Won a grand sum of 9 Test matches at home ... Dhoni won 21 thats quite a big difference and it includes 2 Whitewashes of strong Aussie sides. Dhoni won 8 out of 8 Tests vs Aus at Home ... something that NO Other Captain has managed not Imran Not Lloyd Not Viv Not anybody even against a much weaker Aussie sides of the 80s.

BTW Imran lost one Test Against the then Minnows SL which is much worse than being beaten by a strong side. Worse he managed only 2 Test Wins in 6 Tests against SL which is pathetic given the bowling resources he had and the strength of opposition (No Murali No Vaas !!). Infact Pak were made to sweat real hard for the only Win against SL at home in 1992. Link : http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63570.html

And ofcourse we know what happened in the 1989 series vs India against a rookie captain in Azhar with a toothless bowling attack.

So as you can see its not all that great record especially considering as he never managed to Win any series against the strongest team of his time - WI - at home.

 

[Abdullah719]

Dhoni won 8 out of 8 Tests vs Aus at Home ... something that NO Other Captain has managed not Imran Not Lloyd Not Viv Not anybody even against a much weaker Aussie sides of the 80s.

You've over-stating the importance of Dhoni beating Australia a bit much I reckon.

Firstly, the Australian side has not been the #1 side in the World during Dhoni's tenure - until Smith retired, South Africa was the best team of that period. Plus, Australia were recently whitewashed by a mediocre SL team and the only time they've recently toured UAE, they received a thrashing of massive proportions as well. They've been rubbish in Asia for a while.

So as you can see its not all that great record especially considering as he never managed to Win any series against the strongest team of his time - WI - at home.

West Indies was unbeaten in Test series for almost 15 years between 1980 and 1995. In this period, Pakistan was the only team to draw a series vs WI in WI. Quite a decent achievement, I reckon.

 

[Tusker]

You've over-stating the importance of Dhoni beating Australia a bit much I reckon.

Overstating ? Then what do you call Pakistani fans drooling all over that ONE Test match that they won against a Weakened WI team. Atleast MSD Won matches Outright.

Firstly, the Australian side has not been the #1 side in the World during Dhoni's tenure - until Smith retired, South Africa was the best team of that period. Plus, Australia were recently whitewashed by a mediocre SL team and the only time they've recently toured UAE, they received a thrashing of massive proportions as well. They've been rubbish in Asia for a while.

Aus certainly was the No.1 Team when MSD beat them first in 2008 ( 2 out of 2 Tests ) and that loss was one of the major reasons why Aus lost their No.1 ranking. And the peak ranking of Aus in that time period was 143 which was never achieved by any modern team.

West Indies was unbeaten in Test series for almost 15 years between 1980 and 1995. In this period, Pakistan was the only team to draw a series vs WI in WI. Quite a decent achievement, I reckon.

Most of that achievement was due to Lloyd's captaincy and the 4 fast bowlers of which Only Marshall (past his prime and injured) was remaining. Imran never did anything against *THE* WI team that people refer to

 

[Monsee]

Overstating ? Then what do you call Pakistani fans drooling all over that ONE Test match that they won against a Weakened WI team. Atleast MSD Won matches Outright.



Aus certainly was the No.1 Team when MSD beat them first in 2008 ( 2 out of 2 Tests ) and that loss was one of the major reasons why Aus lost their No.1 ranking. And the peak ranking of Aus in that time period was 143 which was never achieved by any modern team.



Most of that achievement was due to Lloyd's captaincy and the 4 fast bowlers of which Only Marshall (past his prime and injured) was remaining. Imran never did anything against *THE* WI team that people refer to

What stopped Indians and your Big Paa Jee from drawing or even beating this 'Weak-er' WI team as you conveniently call them?

While Imran was drawing series against WI in WI around that time, this is what India was receiving despite having a pertty good team: http://www.espncricinfo.com/india/engine/series/60558.html

Even till Richie Richardon first became captain (after VIV retired), WI was considered an invincible team.

 

[Abdullah719]

Overstating ? Then what do you call Pakistani fans drooling all over that ONE Test match that they won against a Weakened WI team. Atleast MSD Won matches Outright.

Drawing a series overseas is tougher than winning a series at home.

Aus certainly was the No.1 Team when MSD beat them first in 2008 ( 2 out of 2 Tests ) and that loss was one of the major reasons why Aus lost their No.1 ranking. And the peak ranking of Aus in that time period was 143 which was never achieved by any modern team.

According to what I've found, Australia were #1 at the time with a rating of 118 and India #2 with a rating of 115. So the gap really is quite small and beating them at home is entirely conceivable. Nevertheless, this is a very good achievement - I didn't notice the wins in 2008 and was referring to more recent ones where Australia have become hopeless in Asia in general.

Most of that achievement was due to Lloyd's captaincy and the 4 fast bowlers of which Only Marshall (past his prime and injured) was remaining. Imran never did anything against *THE* WI team that people refer to

Granted that Holding and Garner weren't part of the team anymore, but if this was such a small achievement then why couldn't other teams replicate this feat? India toured less than a year later in 1989, faced pretty much the same bowling lineup and lost 3-0 in 4 Tests. WI continued beating all touring teams till 1995.

 

[Muhammad10]

[MENTION=134300]Tusker[/MENTION]

Here's a look at what Dhoni's team achieved outside its comfort zone in Tests:





Here's a look at what Imran's team achieved outside its comfort zone in Tests:





Here's a look at how Captain Dhoni failed to lead from the front in Tests that were outside his comfort zone:





Here's a look at how Captain Imran inspired his team by leading from the front in their toughest battles:





True legends are judged by what they accomplished outside their comfort zones against their mightiest opponents. There is a massive gulf between Dhoni and Imran in Tests. In ODIs, I would just about give Dhoni the edge, but Imran still won a World Cup in Australia/New Zealand, while there was no Champions Trophy or WT20 to win in those days. Overall, I would take Imran Khan in a heartbeat.

 

[Monsee]

^^^But But But, Dhoni is one of the richest players in the world, that edges him ahead of Imran and BCCI is the most powerful board, period!

India and Dhoni win hands down

 

[Tusker]

Drawing a series overseas is tougher than winning a series at home.

doing that with ordinary bowlers is pretty much impossible. yet MSD has won pretty much same % of matches away from home. Just imagine what might have been if he had bowlers like Wasim, Waqar, Imran , Aaquib and Qadir in his team.

According to what I've found, Australia were #1 at the time with a rating of 118 and India #2 with a rating of 115. So the gap really is quite small and beating them at home is entirely conceivable. Nevertheless, this is a very good achievement - I didn't notice the wins in 2008 and was referring to more recent ones where Australia have become hopeless in Asia in general.

This stat below highlights how awesome the Aussie teams were in the 2000-2008 time frame as compared with the WI from 1976-1988

AUS - 94 WON: 70 Lost:11 Draw:13
WI -- 91 WON: 42 LOST:12 Draw:37

Links:

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...anval2=span;team=2;template=results;type=team

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...anval1=span;team=4;template=results;type=team

Granted that Holding and Garner weren't part of the team anymore, but if this was such a small achievement then why couldn't other teams replicate this feat? India toured less than a year later in 1989, faced pretty much the same bowling lineup and lost 3-0 in 4 Tests. WI continued beating all touring teams till 1995.

Not just Holding ... it was Roberts,Garner,Croft,Lloyd, Gomes. Yes they were a great team for a long time after that but when the talk involves WI team of the 80s it is always implies Clive Lloyd's teams.

 

[subshakerz]

Dhoni has two spells in his test captaincy.

The first was from 2009 - 2011. In this time, he was undefeated at home, and won some decent series in NZ and WI, and had a credible draw in SA. He took India to no.1. Uptil this point, you would rightly consider him a peer with Imran.

The second part of his captaincy was a disaster. He was whitewashed in England and Australia before losing at home to England. Then his second leg of foreign tours resulted in him losing to NZ, SA, England and Australia again.

The losses to NZ and SA are quite glaring since in the first test in SA, Dhoni failed to win while setting SA a 400 plus score on a Durban pitch where subcontinent teams have traditionally done well. And in NZ, we remember McCullum scoring a triple ton as India once again threw away a winning position.

Frankly, Im surprised India fans would even now consider Dhoni a good test captain. I recall a sense of relief when he gave it up after losing in Australia.

 

[subshakerz]

Imran by comparison played in a time of slower batsmen and higher rates of draw. But he only lost twice in a full series, the first to England in his first series in 1982 and the second to Australia in 1990. In both though Pakistan at least showed some fight and the team was hardly crushed much less whitewashed the way Dhoni was.

You have to also compare them with their predecessors. In Imran's case, Pakistan basically had not won anywhere outside of NZ, so his achievements were significant and groundbreaking for Pakistan cricket. Before Dhoni, Ganguly had already shown the way of being competitive abroad, and Dhoni didnt really break any new ground but in a way let India slip.

 

[Tusker]

[MENTION=134300]Tusker[/MENTION]

Here's a look at what Dhoni's team achieved outside its comfort zone in Tests:



Here's a look at what Imran's team achieved outside its comfort zone in Tests:



Here's a look at how Captain Dhoni failed to lead from the front in Tests that were outside his comfort zone:




Here's a look at how Captain Imran inspired his team by leading from the front in their toughest battles:




True legends are judged by what they accomplished outside their comfort zones against their mightiest opponents. There is a massive gulf between Dhoni and Imran in Tests. In ODIs, I would just about give Dhoni the edge, but Imran still won a World Cup in Australia/New Zealand, while there was no Champions Trophy or WT20 to win in those days. Overall, I would take Imran Khan in a heartbeat.

Imran lost a Test against then minnows SL despite having a bowling unit that was comprised of ATG bowlers and ended up winning same amount of tests "away from comfort zone" as you call it ... not sure what you are gloating about ? Do you realize that MSD has held the Test No.1 ranking for more months than what Pakistan has managed to hold onto in its entire history ?

True leaders go about their tasks despite limited resources. They win All important trophies at hand on first try and certainly don't lose test matches to lesser teams.

And don't forget that there was no SAF in Imrans time and Aus were at their weakest in the 80s and even India beat England in England and drew in Pakistan in the 80s.

 

[Abdullah719]

This stat below highlights how awesome the Aussie teams were in the 2000-2008 time frame as compared with the WI from 1976-1988

AUS - 94 WON: 70 Lost:11 Draw:13
WI -- 91 WON: 42 LOST:12 Draw:37

Links:

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...anval2=span;team=2;template=results;type=team

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...anval1=span;team=4;template=results;type=team

Similar to how some of the WI greats were missing in the series Pakistan drew against them in 87, this Australian team was also not at its peak. But unlike the WI team which remained unbeaten till 1995, this Australian team was clearly on the way down at the time. Hayden and Lee were on their last legs and players like Langer, Gilchrist, Martyn, McGrath, Warne, MacGill, etc. had already retired. Australia lost to South Africa and England soon after the loss to India, went on to lose a Test to a inexperienced Pakistan team in England and then badly lost an Ashes series at home just two years later.

Not just Holding ... it was Roberts,Garner,Croft,Lloyd, Gomes. Yes they were a great team for a long time after that but when the talk involves WI team of the 80s it is always implies Clive Lloyd's teams.

I mentioned Holding and Garner as they had just recently retired, the likes of Roberts, Croft and Lloyd had retired a few years earlier but West Indies were still a juggernaut at the time and they remained unbeaten till 1995 with good reason.

 

[Tusker]

Similar to how some of the WI greats were missing in the series Pakistan drew against them in 87, this Australian team was also not at its peak. But unlike the WI team which remained unbeaten till 1995, this Australian team was clearly on the way down at the time. Hayden and Lee were on their last legs and players like Langer, Gilchrist, Martyn, McGrath, Warne, MacGill, etc. had already retired. Australia lost to South Africa and England soon after the loss to India, went on to lose a Test to a inexperienced Pakistan team in England and then badly lost an Ashes series at home just two years later.

They were the No.1 team and remained No.1 till next summer ... despite that series loss. Imran on the other hand never won a Series against the best team of his times. That combined with that poor record against lowly SL and the drawn series in 89 vs India are big negatives.

Had MSD been lucky enough to have had 2-3 ATG class bowlers in his team he would have done some truly miraculous things.

 

[Muhammad10]

Imran lost a Test against then minnows SL despite having a bowling unit that was comprised of ATG bowlers and ended up winning same amount of tests "away from comfort zone" as you call it ... not sure what you are gloating about ? Do you realize that MSD has held the Test No.1 ranking for more months than what Pakistan has managed to hold onto in its entire history ?

True leaders go about their tasks despite limited resources. They win All important trophies at hand on first try and certainly don't lose test matches to lesser teams.

And don't forget that there was no SAF in Imrans time and Aus were at their weakest in the 80s and even India beat England in England and drew in Pakistan in the 80s.

He drew far more Tests away, while Dhoni's side was repeatedly clobbered. The W/L ratio says it all. Meanwhile, their individual statistics in these big games were incomparable.

 

[Tusker]

He drew far more Tests away, while Dhoni's side was repeatedly clobbered. The W/L ratio says it all. Meanwhile, their individual statistics in these big games were incomparable.

Yes I know that ... but the point is Imran's leadership did not result into many more Wins despite having a vastly superior bowlers ... its not even a apple-to-apples comparison when it comes to bowling. Yet MSD did very well with limited resources and the quality of opposition he ran into.

 

[subshakerz]

Yes I know that ... but the point is Imran's leadership did not result into many more Wins despite having a vastly superior bowlers ... its not even a apple-to-apples comparison when it comes to bowling. Yet MSD did very well with limited resources and the quality of opposition he ran into.

No Dhoni did not. He suffered two consecutive whitewashes of 4-0 against England and Australia, which by itself should be enough to end this argument.

The whitewash against Australia in 2011 was especially glaring, given that India visited Australia in 2004 and 2007 under Ganguly and Kumble and were competitive in both series, yet in this one lost comprehensively with a full strength side and looked utterly hopeless. And not to mention the instances of Dhoni failing to close games that were in India's pocket, such as in NZ and SA in 2013/2014, and Dhoni's regular lackadaisical attitude in the field letting games meander on, something Imran was never accused of.