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Why are away series wins so rare even for top teams?

Nikhil_cric

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There has been a lot of criticism, and rightfully so, of India's away record and the no. 1 ranking in recent years. While India had held the no. 1 ranking from 2016 to 2020, it was claimed that India had indulged in home-bullying to maintain the ranking. While there certainly is an element if truth to this, it dawned on me that most top 8 teams don't win a lot of away series while playing each other. India's golden run to the top in tests started in 2015 and , in the last 6 years , the number of away series wins for top 8 teams playing each other is

India - 6
England - 4
Australia - 2
NZ - 1
SA - 2
SL -2
Pakistan - 2
West indies - 0


Is this an exceptionally tough era for away series wins? Discuss
 
The reason behind it is influence of T20 cricket, it has made it harder for teams to succeed in alien conditions in test cricket.

Some may say that a lot of test players don't play T20s but this doesn't mean it is not in their minds. They know that they can earn a lot of money with T20 leagues and hence, they focus on all parts.

In some other era, Mayank Agarwal would have been all conditions batsman but in this era, he is finding it hard because of T20s influence.
 
There has been a lot of criticism, and rightfully so, of India's away record and the no. 1 ranking in recent years. While India had held the no. 1 ranking from 2016 to 2020, it was claimed that India had indulged in home-bullying to maintain the ranking. While there certainly is an element if truth to this, it dawned on me that most top 8 teams don't win a lot of away series while playing each other. India's golden run to the top in tests started in 2015 and , in the last 6 years , the number of away series wins for top 8 teams playing each other is

India - 6
England - 4
Australia - 2
NZ - 1
SA - 2
SL -2
Pakistan - 2
West indies - 0

Is this an exceptionally tough era for away series wins? Discuss

Excellent thread.
You only mentioned series away wins. What % is this of the total series played.
How many series (number of tests, W/D/L)?
 
Mainly because home teams have found the best ways to utilize their home conditions

Take India and England for example- it's insanely hard for any team in the world to replicate what Anderson and Broad or Jadeja and Ashwin do in English or Indian conditions respectively. They are easily the best in those conditions, and most teams that tour are already at a disadvantage.

Even if teams manage to find bowlers good enough to compete- they have to now reckon with team depth. In home conditions, England have the possibility of playing upto 3 allrounders - Curran, Woakes and Stokes. Not only are they extremely good bowlers in home conditions, but also great batsman in home conditions, which doesn't translate away from home. India can play two spinners who can both bat well- which they can't do in seaming conditions(and then they end up having a very weak tail)

And even after all of that bowlers have to reckon with Home conditions batsman who are extremely difficult to replicate. For example - Warner and Rohit Sharma, are absolutely amazing at home. It would be a miracle if any touring team can find batsman that replicate their home exploits.

To sum up, all touring teams have to find an extremely good team or be very lucky if they have to win away from home.
 
There has been a lot of criticism, and rightfully so, of India's away record and the no. 1 ranking in recent years. While India had held the no. 1 ranking from 2016 to 2020, it was claimed that India had indulged in home-bullying to maintain the ranking. While there certainly is an element if truth to this, it dawned on me that most top 8 teams don't win a lot of away series while playing each other. India's golden run to the top in tests started in 2015 and , in the last 6 years , the number of away series wins for top 8 teams playing each other is

India - 6
England - 4
Australia - 2
NZ - 1
SA - 2
SL -2
Pakistan - 2
West indies - 0


Is this an exceptionally tough era for away series wins? Discuss

In the period I mentioned above , India has won 6 out of 9 away series, Australia- 2 out of 8 and England - 4 out of 12.
 
Key reasons

1. Favorable pitches for home team ( both batters & bowlers ). Ashwin knows how to bowl on Indian pitches much better than Lyon & vice versa
2. No need for acclimatization for home team
3. Not a big factor but still crucial - home team tail enders generally bat better in home tests than foreign team's tail enders which makes getting 20 wickets tougher for away side

One reason Australia & South Africa win so often in each other's country is their playing conditions are very similar !

1 big mystery is why Sri Lanka never won test in India even in hey days of Murali / Mahela / Sanga when they regularly won in Sri Lanka on similar pitches. Probably psychological
 
Lack of sporting wickets is the key reason and then comes the players who are legends at home but pathetic abroad. :inti
 
Again why exclude Bangladesh? SENA teams and India haven't won a series there in the last decade.

Including Bangladesh, since 2015.

Pakistan have 3 away series wins

Sri Lanka also have 3 away series wins

West Indies have 1 away series win

So, Pak and SL have more away series wins than NZ,Aus and SA since 2015.
 
Again why exclude Bangladesh? SENA teams and India haven't won a series there in the last decade.

Including Bangladesh, since 2015.

Pakistan have 3 away series wins

Sri Lanka also have 3 away series wins

West Indies have 1 away series win

So, Pak and SL have more away series wins than NZ,Aus and SA since 2015.

OP clearly said it's between the top 8 teams which Bangladesh aren't...
 
Cricket schedule is a lot more busy nowadays with Cricket leagues and T20 matches. Teams basically show up a week or two before playing them and get absolutely destroyed in alien conditions because more time is required as well as multiple practice matches.

Only reason Pakistan have done well in England in recent years is because they actually show up very early since it's off-season and get used to the conditions.
 
Is this an exceptionally tough era for away series wins? Discuss

Most teams cannot bat in alien conditions any more. England batters cannot cope with spin in India or bounce in Australia. Indians cannot cope with swing in England.

It used to be different - England batters came up playing on some spin wickets at home playing decent home spinners and overseas stars. But now the wickets are homogenous slow seamers - if a County groundsman makes a spin wicket or a fast bouncy wicket, his Club gets docked points. So young batters do not learn the skills.

Whereas Indians came to play for County sides and learned to master the local conditions. Now all the Kolpaks have left, perhaps more Indians will get a chance in County jobs like Gavaskar, Vengsarkar, Azhar, Kapil, Kumble and Tendulkar all did.
 
There has been a lot of criticism, and rightfully so, of India's away record and the no. 1 ranking in recent years. While India had held the no. 1 ranking from 2016 to 2020, it was claimed that India had indulged in home-bullying to maintain the ranking. While there certainly is an element if truth to this, it dawned on me that most top 8 teams don't win a lot of away series while playing each other. India's golden run to the top in tests started in 2015 and , in the last 6 years , the number of away series wins for top 8 teams playing each other is

India - 6
England - 4
Australia - 2
NZ - 1
SA - 2
SL -2
Pakistan - 2
West indies - 0


Is this an exceptionally tough era for away series wins? Discuss

Small incremental advantages can add up, but when you play in home conditions, there are too many advantages, and adding them up makes it very hard for visiting teams to overcome those challenges.

---------------------

Home team bowling and batting are likely to do better in home conditions.

Visting team bowling and batting are likely to poorer in away conditions.


Add both of them, the advantage of the home team becomes large, and only really good teams will be able to surpass it against top teams playing at home.
 
Beating world class teams at home in Test cricket has always been a major challenge because over the course of the series, it is extremely difficult for the away batsmen and bowlers to outperform the home batsmen and bowlers because the conditions will favor the latter.

That is why it is laughable to see people hype 90’s Pakistan as some world class Test side even though they lost 5-6 series at home. Strong teams do not lose multiple series at home.
 
There has been a lot of criticism, and rightfully so, of India's away record and the no. 1 ranking in recent years. While India had held the no. 1 ranking from 2016 to 2020, it was claimed that India had indulged in home-bullying to maintain the ranking. While there certainly is an element if truth to this, it dawned on me that most top 8 teams don't win a lot of away series while playing each other. India's golden run to the top in tests started in 2015 and , in the last 6 years , the number of away series wins for top 8 teams playing each other is

India - 6
England - 4
Australia - 2
NZ - 1
SA - 2
SL -2
Pakistan - 2
West Indies - 0


Is this an exceptionally tough era for away series wins? Discuss

I don't think it is an exceptionally tough era for away series wins. It has been always tough.


--------------------------------------
2011-2015 away series wins

SA 4
Aus 3
Eng 2
Ind 1
SL 1
NZ 1
Pak 1
WI 0

-----------------------

2006 - 2010 Way series wins

SA - 4
Aus - 4
Ind - 3
Pak - 1
NZ - 0
SL - 0
WI - 0

------------------------------------

Outside of the top 3 teams, most teams have won just 1-2 away series in 5 years period. Some have won none.

The top teams won 3-4 away series. India won 6, but they have been ranked 1 for 4-5 years now and I think no other team has a better all condition bowling unit than India and that's why they have been able to win so many away series.

Otherwise, winning away test series has always been tough. Nothing new even if we pretend earlier teams used to win away for fun.

Now, the record of gun WI and Aus team may be better, but they were the two best sides in history. It has always been tough and the reason is obvious.
 
Beating world class teams at home in Test cricket has always been a major challenge because over the course of the series, it is extremely difficult for the away batsmen and bowlers to outperform the home batsmen and bowlers because the conditions will favor the latter.

That is why it is laughable to see people hype 90’s Pakistan as some world class Test side even though they lost 5-6 series at home. Strong teams do not lose multiple series at home.

The bold part is true, that's why when a visiting team wins a long test series they have to really play well for a long time.

Additional point - With 2 test series, you can catch a team off guard to win first test and then draw one test to get a series win. I don't see those series wins the same as when you win a longer series.

For example,

India would not have won the series with 2 tests against Eng and Aus despite being a superior team due to losing the first test. In fact, India was 1-0 against Eng in Eng after 2 tests before Eng won the last 3 to take the series by 3-1.

I don't rate Pakistan 1-1 draw that much in Eng, but I rate their 2-2 highly for the same reason. The longer the series goes, the harder it's for visiting team to win. Eng should be winning the next series against Ind easily due to the series being 5 tests and the venue being Eng. It will really surprise me if India wins the series in Eng.
 
Just to put it in perspective,

1985 - 1989 away series wins

WI - 2 ( they drew series in Ind, NZ, and Pakistan)


So it was hard, even for a great WI team.


Only the Aus team won 7 series in the early 2000's period and that's because they used to play for the win rather than avoid losing. India team is not at the same level as the great Aus team, but have the same mentality. Due to Kohli's mindset, India is going to lose some tests which could have been saved, but they will have many wins as well.
 
IK's team was considered a good team,

2 away series wins for IK in his entire career as a captain.


Clearly, winning away series has been hard in all eras unless we have rose-tinted glass for older eras and ignore reality.
 
IK's team was considered a good team,

2 away series wins for IK in his entire career as a captain.


Clearly, winning away series has been hard in all eras unless we have rose-tinted glass for older eras and ignore reality.

Pakistan's best era in terms of away performances was from 1992-1996, when Pakistan won 5 away series against top 8 teams.

In IK's era Pakistan at home was invincible but away they were just above average.

But you are right about away series wins being tough in every era for teams.
 
Pakistan's best era in terms of away performances was from 1992-1996, when Pakistan won 5 away series against top 8 teams.

In IK's era Pakistan at home was invincible but away they were just above average.

But you are right about away series wins being tough in every era for teams.

Yet, you will see posters expecting that good teams or rank 1 teams should win all away test series. That's almost impossible.

A very good team will win pretty much everything at home and then they will be competitive in most away conditions with few series wins. That has been the case in all eras.
 
The numbers from [MENTION=113824]Nikhil_cric[/MENTION] and [MENTION=97523]Buffet[/MENTION] are eye opening.

I think the biggest difference is the fact that sides like Sri Lanka, West Indies and Pakistan have regressed as sides from what they were in the 90s and 2000s. I think South Africa or even Australia for that matter have joined this list too.

In contrast, only India, England and New Zealand have improved from their 90s versions. And it shows in the away series wins count, particularly in the case of the current Indian and English sides.
 
There has been a lot of criticism, and rightfully so, of India's away record and the no. 1 ranking in recent years. While India had held the no. 1 ranking from 2016 to 2020, it was claimed that India had indulged in home-bullying to maintain the ranking. While there certainly is an element if truth to this, it dawned on me that most top 8 teams don't win a lot of away series while playing each other. India's golden run to the top in tests started in 2015 and , in the last 6 years , the number of away series wins for top 8 teams playing each other is

India - 6
England - 4
Australia - 2
NZ - 1
SA - 2
SL -2
Pakistan - 2
West indies - 0


Is this an exceptionally tough era for away series wins? Discuss

One new feature is t20 advent last 10 years and it’s impact .
A- few players just want to concentrate on t20
B- attacking batters not used to bowlers and balls dominating bat
C- shorter recovery and excessive cricket

Watch the india australia series and see the number of injuries . India won only cos it has been building solid a team and could compete throughout series . But for smaller countries say pak or Sri Lanka , one or two main players injured and their foreign campaign is in much more jeopardy . England tryinh out rotation to avoid that scene but india likely to benifit the most with t20 due to expansion of player volume and size . India almost now has an amazon like advantage in terms of scale . Note how india seems to be doing better and better in long formats .

The last part about away series is that county cricket is not being played as much as Indians: Pakistanis used to . Australia was never a place we played anyways and so Australia - nz tours were historically tougher than England .

Last part is the balls used. Each country seems to have different balls
 
Pakistan's best era in terms of away performances was from 1992-1996, when Pakistan won 5 away series against top 8 teams.

That was an amazing record. Pakistan in 90s was a beast.

Misbah-Pak in SENA is not a bad record either. Better % of wins and draws then India with all the BCCI money and politics
 
That was an amazing record. Pakistan in 90s was a beast.

Misbah-Pak in SENA is not a bad record either. Better % of wins and draws then India with all the BCCI money and politics

A beast that lost 5-6 Test series in Pakistan.
 
That was an amazing record. Pakistan in 90s was a beast.

Misbah-Pak in SENA is not a bad record either. Better % of wins and draws then India with all the BCCI money and politics

Yes they were a beast outside Asia, that team won 5 series in SENA from 1992-1996, also drew in South Africa in 1998.

Misbah's Pakistan only won 1 series in SENA though and drew 1 series in England. So they were far inferior to the 90's team.
 
There has been a lot of criticism, and rightfully so, of India's away record and the no. 1 ranking in recent years. While India had held the no. 1 ranking from 2016 to 2020, it was claimed that India had indulged in home-bullying to maintain the ranking. While there certainly is an element if truth to this, it dawned on me that most top 8 teams don't win a lot of away series while playing each other. India's golden run to the top in tests started in 2015 and , in the last 6 years , the number of away series wins for top 8 teams playing each other is

India - 6
England - 4
Australia - 2
NZ - 1
SA - 2
SL -2
Pakistan - 2
West indies - 0


Is this an exceptionally tough era for away series wins? Discuss

Possibly the difference between top test teams and great ones.

The great test cricket sides, for example Windies in the 80s and early 90s, Aus in the late 90s and early 00s, Pakistan back in the 80s, SA in the late 00s and early '10s...these were greatest sides who won away or were good enough not to lose too often.

India have probably come closest to that since the end of the great saffers side BUT have not won often enough away unless it is Australia or the weak Asian teams of today. Are they currently a great side? I am not so sure.
 
Possibly the difference between top test teams and great ones.

The great test cricket sides, for example Windies in the 80s and early 90s, Aus in the late 90s and early 00s, Pakistan back in the 80s, SA in the late 00s and early '10s...these were greatest sides who won away or were good enough not to lose too often.

India have probably come closest to that since the end of the great saffers side BUT have not won often enough away unless it is Australia or the weak Asian teams of today. Are they currently a great side? I am not so sure.

Here we go again - looking at the past with rose-tinted glass.


Pakistan in the entire 80s( 10 years) won just 2 away test series. They did not avoid losing as well. They lost 4-5 away test series.

Currently, Indians have won 6 test series in 5 years, but they have not won enough just because they won in SL/WI etc. Take out SL/WI and still, they would have won as many test series wins in 5 years as Pakistan had in an entire decade. Not sure how fans can be so dismissive of good teams of the current era.
 
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Even if you ignore series, here is the total number of away test wins in 80s - 10 years

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test wins.jpg
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Here is away test wins by teams in the last 6 years,
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test_wins_kohli.jpg

If you compare Pakistan in 80s, they lost as much as India has lost in the last 6 years, so it not like Pakistan avoided losing.

Many posters simply fail to appreciate current players and current teams.
 
Great WI team had 25 wins and only 7 losses in 80s. That's what made them one of the best teams in history.

Indians will have lot more losses in 10 years, but it won't surprise me if Indians also get close to 25 wins. Indians are nowhere close to the WI team, but it will be a great achievement if they can get 22-25 away test wins in 10 years.
 
Here we go again - looking at the past with rose-tinted glass.


Pakistan in the entire 80s( 10 years) won just 2 away test series. They did not avoid losing as well. They lost 4-5 away test series.

Currently, Indians have won 6 test series in 5 years, but they have not won enough just because they won in SL/WI etc. Take out SL/WI and still, they would have won as many test series wins in 5 years as Pakistan had in an entire decade. Not sure how fans can be so dismissive of good teams of the current era.

WI of 80s, Aus of Waugh/Ponting and Graeme Smith's SA have been the best sides in the last 50 years. I think only these three teams have touched 130 point mark in ICC rankings.

India's best is 125, currently they are at 122. Need to do well in England and SA if they have to reach 130-point mark.

Pakistan were never as great as their fans are claiming. Their highest rating point ever is 111 and have spent just 4 months as top-ranked side.
 
Home advantage is just massive in tests. Teams lose often at home down to luck, had a really bad series, test series was too short. There's even fewer test away series wins where a touring team has outplayed a home team who hasn't massively underperformed.

It becomes almost silly when people go on about it'll be a hard fought/close contest with test series to hype it up, when almost always it isn't. It is even worse between asian and non-asian teams where home advantage is so big it's bordering on ridiculous.

Worse still, I don't think teams prepare pitches fairly for all teams. They might prepare are a harder pitch for teams they just want to beat quickly, and easier pitches for teams they want to milk the series more and get more money. There's talk of making fairer pitches but should teams purposely prepare pitches they are more likely to lose on? And fair pitches really will be pitches that offer nothing to both teams, i.e. flat pitches which leads to more draws and higher innings total.

They should definitely give more points for away wins. I think getting rid of second innings for both teams would shift the advantage away from the home nation a bit too, though this change may go down as unpopular. I think giving the decision to bat or bowl to the away team could help too.
 
WI of 80s, Aus of Waugh/Ponting and Graeme Smith's SA have been the best sides in the last 50 years. I think only these three teams have touched 130 point mark in ICC rankings.

India's best is 125, currently they are at 122. Need to do well in England and SA if they have to reach 130-point mark.

Pakistan were never as great as their fans are claiming.
Their highest rating point ever is 111 and have spent just 4 months as top-ranked side.

Wrong, Pakistan's highest ever rating is 120 points back in July 2006.

https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2006...-above-england-in-world-test-rankings/1800622

2nd best rating is 116 points back in Nov-Dec 1994.

https://web.archive.org/web/2013032...ket.com/match_zone/test_ranking.php?year=1994
 
Great WI team had 25 wins and only 7 losses in 80s. That's what made them one of the best teams in history.

Indians will have lot more losses in 10 years, but it won't surprise me if Indians also get close to 25 wins. Indians are nowhere close to the WI team, but it will be a great achievement if they can get 22-25 away test wins in 10 years.

India's away W/L ratio since 2015 is at par with Pakistan's away W/L ratio in the 90's, so its a pretty good away record to have to be honest.
 
Kohli’s India would comfortably thrash Imran’s Pakistan both home and away. The level of delusion and nostalgia is comical. This is the greatest Asian Test team of all time.

- longest ever reign as the number 1 ranked side for an Asian team.

- longest reign as the number 1 side in the 2010 decade.

- two Test series win in Australia against a bowling attack that would rank among the greatest Australia has ever fielded.

- 36 Test wins for Kohli, 22 more than Imran Khan and 9 more than the second most prolific Asian Test captain.

No Asian team ever can boast better achievements than the post 2015 Indian team.

2015-2023-24? will go down in history as the greatest ever run by an Asian Test team.
 
WI of 80s, Aus of Waugh/Ponting and Graeme Smith's SA have been the best sides in the last 50 years. I think only these three teams have touched 130 point mark in ICC rankings.

India's best is 125, currently they are at 122. Need to do well in England and SA if they have to reach 130-point mark.

Pakistan were never as great as their fans are claiming. Their highest rating point ever is 111 and have spent just 4 months as top-ranked side.

India's best rating is 130. That came some time in the last 6 years.

WI/SA/Ind/AUS have touched 130 points.

Pakistan's best rating under Misbah was 111 and under IK, I think the peak rating was 111 or 112, but Pakistan maintained a higher rating of 113-115 for a duration in the early 90s.

I won't really only look at the highest ratings. You can get it by some easy schedule, but only top teams can maintain high ratings.
 
Kohli’s India would comfortably thrash Imran’s Pakistan both home and away.

Maybe Kohli's India can beat Imran's Pakistan at home but no way will they beat them away. Pakistan from 1981 to 1994 only lost 2 tests at home both to WI and won 24 tests, with W/L ratio of 12. Their W/L ratio at home during that period was even better than WI, so Pakistan was simply unbeatable at home during that era.

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...1981;spanval1=span;template=results;type=team

Even the greatest sider ever WI couldn't beat Pak at home, so Kohli's India stands no chance.
 
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India's away W/L ratio since 2015 is at par with Pakistan's away W/L ratio in the 90's, so its a pretty good away record to have to be honest.

Combined that with probably one of the best home records in the history of cricket. Indians are having a phenomenal run here for the last 5-6 years.

Some posters start expecting W/L of great WI/Aus otherwise they think a team is not doing well. They point out, what about this series or that series loss. That's silly because if all series is won then they will become equal to the great Aus/WI team and that's too high a benchmark if we are talking about a team doing well. A team can be a very good team without performing as well as ATG teams.

All teams found it hard to win away series. It was never easy to win away series. Even very good teams found it hard. Great WI/Aus team won plenty and SA under Smith won plenty away, but it has been hard historically to win away series.
 
Maybe Kohli's India can beat Imran's Pakistan at home but no way will they beat them away. Pakistan from 1981 to 1994 only lost 2 tests at home both to WI and won 24 tests, with W/L ratio of 12. Their W/L ratio at home during that period was even better than WI, so Pakistan was simply unbeatable at home during that era.

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...1981;spanval1=span;template=results;type=team

Even the greatest sider ever WI couldn't beat Pak at home, so Kohli's India stands no chance.

The great West Indies team lacked a proper spinner. It was a major factor why they couldn’t win in Pakistan.

Kohli’s India with Ashwin and Jadeja stand a better chance than the great West Indies against Imran’s Pakistan in Pakistan.

Kohli’s India has stronger batting unit and spin bowling attack than Imran’s Pakistan, and that is why they will beat them home and away.

The lack of a proper spinner in the great West Indies team is the main reason why a lot of people rate the 2000s Australia higher. The Shane Warne factor cannot be ignored.
 
When you talk about Kohli’s India as the greatest Asian Test side, people talk about their losses in South Africa, England and New Zealand.

The issue is that to be the greatest Asian side, you do not have to be invincible; you simply have to do better than other Asian sides of the past.

If India would have won in South Africa, England and New Zealand in addition to their current achievements, they would be talked about in the same bracket as the great West Indies and Australia. However, they are nowhere near that league.

Nevertheless, when you compare their achievements to that of other great Asian sides of the past, they certainly stand out from the rest.
 
Home advantage is just massive in tests. Teams lose often at home down to luck, had a really bad series, test series was too short. There's even fewer test away series wins where a touring team has outplayed a home team who hasn't massively underperformed.

That's why I think it is extremely hard to win an away series with 4-5 tests.

Winning a series with 2 tests is much easier. 3 tests it gets harder. 4 tests extremely difficult. 5 is even harder than 4. To win a series with 4-5 tests against a top team is extremely difficult. In the case of the SENA vs Asian team, it is even harder due to conditions being different.

Indians won back-to-back series in Aus with 4 tests in series. They surprised me because I did not expect them to do it due to the difficulty of doing it. Now just because they did it in Aus, I don't expect them to do it in Eng. It has not become easier just because they did in Aus. It will remain hard due to conditions and Eng being a top team in their home.
 
Even the greatest sider ever WI couldn't beat Pak at home, so Kohli's India stands no chance.

Huge exaggeration there. The Indian team of the 80s drew with Pakistan twice in their home.

And that Indian team had speed demons like Chetan Sharma, Madan Lal, Manoj Prabhakar, Roger Binny, Salil Ankola leading the pace attack while the spin attack was headed by Maninder Singh, Anshuman Gaekwad, Ravi Shastri, Arshad Ayub, etc.

I would say the current Indian team wouldn't have embarrassed itself with messrs Bumrah, Shami, Yadav, Siraj, Ashwin, Jadeja et al leading the Indian attack. They afterall have a W/L ratio of 12.5 since 2015 at home. It would have been a very competitive series both home and away between the two teams.
 
The great West Indies team lacked a proper spinner. It was a major factor why they couldn’t win in Pakistan.

Kohli’s India with Ashwin and Jadeja stand a better chance than the great West Indies against Imran’s Pakistan in Pakistan.

Kohli’s India has stronger batting unit and spin bowling attack than Imran’s Pakistan, and that is why they will beat them home and away.

The lack of a proper spinner in the great West Indies team is the main reason why a lot of people rate the 2000s Australia higher. The Shane Warne factor cannot be ignored.

I would counter that by saying that WI beat India in India 3-0 in 1983/84 on their pace attack alone. Their pace attack was the greatest ever and they were able to win everywhere on the strength of their pace attack alone, so it tells us about the strength of Imran's Pakistan at home that even the greatest side ever WI couldn't beat them.

Also Pakistan batting of the 80's was pretty good at playing spin and Pakistan also had good bowlers of spin in Iqbal Qasim, Abdul Qadir and Tauseef Ahmed, as evidenced by their beating India in India in 1987. So Ashwin and Jadeja as good as they are will still be countered by 80's Pak batting and Pakistan's spin attack will trouble Kohli's India who are not as good as playing spin, as their predecessors were.

Another thing is that Kohli's India is good at bullying weak sides away from home like SL and WI but they struggle against stronger teams like Eng, NZ and SA away from home.

Add to this the fact that Pakistan at home in 80's and early 90's was one of the strongest home teams ever, certainly stronger than the current NZ, Eng and SA teams at home whom Kohli's India couldn't beat. So I see no reason why Kohli's India will beat Imran's Pak in Pak.
 
Kohli’s India would comfortably thrash Imran’s Pakistan both home and away. The level of delusion and nostalgia is comical. This is the greatest Asian Test team of all time.

- longest ever reign as the number 1 ranked side for an Asian team.

- longest reign as the number 1 side in the 2010 decade.

- two Test series win in Australia against a bowling attack that would rank among the greatest Australia has ever fielded.

- 36 Test wins for Kohli, 22 more than Imran Khan and 9 more than the second most prolific Asian Test captain.

No Asian team ever can boast better achievements than the post 2015 Indian team.

2015-2023-24? will go down in history as the greatest ever run by an Asian Test team.

I disagree with a comfortably thrash comment.

Any strong team at home is very hard to beat let alone getting comfortably thrashed by visiting team. Pakistan was a very strong team at home.
 
Huge exaggeration there. The Indian team of the 80s drew with Pakistan twice in their home.

Yes they drew twice in Pakistan, but also lost to Pakistan at home in 1987 and never won a Test let alone a series against Imran's team. But I do agree that the series between Kohli's India and Imran's Pakistan will be competitive but both teams will find it hard to win in each other homes, as suggested by both teams W/L ratio at home. Its very hard to win away against a team which is very strong at home.
 
...

Even if you ignore series, here is the total number of away test wins in 80s - 10 years

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View attachment 107878
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Here is away test wins by teams in the last 6 years,
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View attachment 107879

If you compare Pakistan in 80s, they lost as much as India has lost in the last 6 years, so it not like Pakistan avoided losing.

Many posters simply fail to appreciate current players and current teams.

This is inaccurate. Pakistan played far fewer test matches, as did many of the teams at the time, and there were far higher drawn tests than there are now.
 
This is inaccurate. Pakistan played far fewer test matches, as did many of the teams at the time, and there were far higher drawn tests than there are now.

So, is that the reason why they lost very few tests at that time?

It was easier to draw back then unlike today when you mostly get results in 90% of game. If you look by winning %, India will be comfortably ahead, if you look at not losing %, Pakistan will be ahead.
 
A beast that lost 5-6 Test series in Pakistan.

A beast that won 5 away test series against top 8 teams and created cricketers with 400+,500+ wickets and 8000+ runs.

No Asian side has ever had that many tests wins away as Pakistan of 1992-96 let alone Kohli+Dhoni India that lost 9/11 SENA series within a span of 10 years.

Kohlis record is almost comparable to Misbah (58.3 vs 47 % win rate) even with Misbahs disadvantages like playing not at all in Pakistan while Kohlis India is supported by worlds richest board while playing in home on 100% doctored pitches. Still Misbah managed to have better SENA record than Kohli.

Like always your opinions do not matter, Number matters and Misbah has very good numbers.
 
DRS has made playing spin more difficult. Batsmen are too scared to use pads to fend off the ball these days. The more bat you use, higher the chance of getting out.

Batting certainly is more difficult today than 2000s - 2010s.
 
Yes they were a beast outside Asia, that team won 5 series in SENA from 1992-1996, also drew in South Africa in 1998.

Misbah's Pakistan only won 1 series in SENA though and drew 1 series in England. So they were far inferior to the 90's team.

yes but 90s Pak lost and drew at home while Misbah created a very strong fortress in UAE with far inferior players. 90s Pak had a superb record away though.

Misbah also drew against war machine England in England (India failed in Eng miserably at the same time). At one points in the series Misbah almost was on verge of making history by taking the series in England ... point is Misbah has a very good record as a captain esp if you keep in mind that he started late in his career, was handed over a team recovering from match fixing scandals, not playing at home at all, cash strapped board. He still managed to retire with a 47 % win rate overall (compared to ~58 of Kohli) with 27 % wind/draw rate in SENA (higher than Kohli-India 21 or 23 % I think). He also averaged 52+ as a batsman while being captain. His captaincy groomed people like Azhar Ali who are moving towards 7000 test runs with mid 40s average, Yasir Shah who will retire with 300+ test scalps and Babar Azam who will be the greatest Pakistani LOI batsman ever. Misbah had his faults, he had temperament issues and also he ruined careers of few but we should give respect where its due.
 
This is inaccurate. Pakistan played far fewer test matches, as did many of the teams at the time, and there were far higher drawn tests than there are now.

Are you reading the stats correctly about matches played, won, and lost? The higher draw means you will lose less as well, but W/L should take care of that.


Away W/L for Pakistan in 80s in 37 tests: 0.5

Away W/L for India in the last 6 years in 32 tests: 1.3


How in the world you will praise 80s of Pakistan for winning away and at the same time criticize the last 6 years of the Indian team for not winning enough? Does not make any sense.

I am not saying that Pakistan in 80s was not good, but I feel many of us have rose-tinted glass for past eras and we don't appreciate greatness in the current era.
 
So, is that the reason why they lost very few tests at that time?

It was easier to draw back then unlike today when you mostly get results in 90% of game. If you look by winning %, India will be comfortably ahead, if you look at not losing %, Pakistan will be ahead.

You will look at W/L to avoid only looking at win% or loss %.

For me, I prefer a 2-2 away result far higher than 1-1 in a long series even though win-loss may look the same, but W/L is a decent proxy of how teams are doing.
 
A beast that won 5 away test series against top 8 teams and created cricketers with 400+,500+ wickets and 8000+ runs.

No Asian side has ever had that many tests wins away as Pakistan of 1992-96 let alone Kohli+Dhoni India that lost 9/11 SENA series within a span of 10 years.

Kohlis record is almost comparable to Misbah (58.3 vs 47 % win rate) even with Misbahs disadvantages like playing not at all in Pakistan while Kohlis India is supported by worlds richest board while playing in home on 100% doctored pitches. Still Misbah managed to have better SENA record than Kohli.

Like always your opinions do not matter, Number matters and Misbah has very good numbers.

I agree that numbers matter, opinions don’t.

That is why Kohli is the greatest Asian Test captain with 36 wins and counting. No other Asian captain comes close to these numbers.

That is why this Indian side is the greatest Asian Test side of all time. They have spent the most number of days as number 1 ranked team compared to previous Asian sides.

They also spent the most number of days as the number 1 ranked team in the 2010-2020 decade.

They are also the only Asian team in history that does not have a “0” in the column of the number of Test series wins in Australia.

These are more impressive numbers than any Asian team has ever produced.
 
I disagree with a comfortably thrash comment.

Any strong team at home is very hard to beat let alone getting comfortably thrashed by visiting team. Pakistan was a very strong team at home.

It is also important to factor in that the 80’s was a very weak era for spin bowling.

The Indian spin bowling was nothing great in-between the era of the quartet and the emergence of Kumble in the 90’s.

West Indies did not have a proper spinner.

Australia did not have a world class spinner in that decade.

Sri Lanka was the weakest team of the decade and did not have a world class spinner either and neither did New Zealand.

If India had the likes of Ashwin and Jadeja, Australia had Warne/Lyon, Sri Lanka had Muralitharan/Herath etc., Pakistan’s home record under Imran would be under threat.

My point is that deducing that the current Indian team would struggle to beat Imran’s Pakistan in the 80s based on how they fared at home in their era is a bit misleading because they didn’t have to face spinners of Ashwin and Jadeja caliber in their prime years.
 
I would counter that by saying that WI beat India in India 3-0 in 1983/84 on their pace attack alone. Their pace attack was the greatest ever and they were able to win everywhere on the strength of their pace attack alone, so it tells us about the strength of Imran's Pakistan at home that even the greatest side ever WI couldn't beat them.

Also Pakistan batting of the 80's was pretty good at playing spin and Pakistan also had good bowlers of spin in Iqbal Qasim, Abdul Qadir and Tauseef Ahmed, as evidenced by their beating India in India in 1987. So Ashwin and Jadeja as good as they are will still be countered by 80's Pak batting and Pakistan's spin attack will trouble Kohli's India who are not as good as playing spin, as their predecessors were.

Another thing is that Kohli's India is good at bullying weak sides away from home like SL and WI but they struggle against stronger teams like Eng, NZ and SA away from home.

Add to this the fact that Pakistan at home in 80's and early 90's was one of the strongest home teams ever, certainly stronger than the current NZ, Eng and SA teams at home whom Kohli's India couldn't beat. So I see no reason why Kohli's India will beat Imran's Pak in Pak.

80’s was easily the weakest decade for spin bowling. Pakistani batsmen of the 80’s were not tested by spinners of the caliber of Warne, Muralitharan, Ashwin, Lyon, Jadeja, Swann, Herath etc.

Kohli’s India bullied Australia twice in Australia with a bowling attack that would rank among the greatest Australia has ever fielded.

Imran’s Pakistan failed to win in Australia then and they will fail to win in Australia today against Cummins, Hazlewood, Starc and Lyon.

The Indian team that Imran’s Pakistan beat was far inferior to the current Indian side.
 
It is also important to factor in that the 80’s was a very weak era for spin bowling.

The Indian spin bowling was nothing great in-between the era of the quartet and the emergence of Kumble in the 90’s.

West Indies did not have a proper spinner.

Australia did not have a world class spinner in that decade.

Sri Lanka was the weakest team of the decade and did not have a world class spinner either and neither did New Zealand.

If India had the likes of Ashwin and Jadeja, Australia had Warne/Lyon, Sri Lanka had Muralitharan/Herath etc., Pakistan’s home record under Imran would be under threat.

My point is that deducing that the current Indian team would struggle to beat Imran’s Pakistan in the 80s based on how they fared at home in their era is a bit misleading because they didn’t have to face spinners of Ashwin and Jadeja caliber in their prime years.

It is not easy to beat a strong home team. Sure, it can be done.

Yes, on turning tracks Pakistan would have most likely lost against Ashwin and Jadeja, but the pitch used to be super flat in Pakistan. I think a poor Indian team played 4 tests in Pakistan when IK was captain and the scoreline was 0-0. I may be wrong and someone can correct me.

It is very hard for any team to visit India and have a 0-0 score in a long series even on a flat pitch. Eng got flat pitches in their last series and could not draw more than one test. Pakistan also had an issue with playing fewer overs due to light.

As a team, I do think Kohli's team will overpower IK's team in most cases, but still, it is not easy to force a win in super flat pitches in Pakistan. You could say that Indians may have a decent chance to win, but it won't be easy.
 
I agree that numbers matter, opinions don’t.

That is why Kohli is the greatest Asian Test captain with 36 wins and counting. No other Asian captain comes close to these numbers.

That is why this Indian side is the greatest Asian Test side of all time. They have spent the most number of days as number 1 ranked team compared to previous Asian sides.

They also spent the most number of days as the number 1 ranked team in the 2010-2020 decade.

They are also the only Asian team in history that does not have a “0” in the column of the number of Test series wins in Australia.

These are more impressive numbers than any Asian team has ever produced.

And at same time has 7 out of 7 series loses in new zealand, South africa and england.

Jai hind india. Why dont you go do bhangra over all the great performances in those series.

7-0 series loses pretty much hammered in every series, just like ur brain cells have been hammered with fact you always fail to mention this.
 
Why no mention of how pathetic kohlis india have been in SA, ENG or NZ the fact they struggle against moving ball?

I am not sure how much you watched Indians play in the latest SA and Eng series if you think they were pathetic. They were poor in NZ for sure.
 
I am not sure how much you watched Indians play in the latest SA and Eng series if you think they were pathetic. They were poor in NZ for sure.

Please enlighten me how they were poor in SA or england.

There batting was average in SA.

In england there batting failed in 3 out of 4 inns in 1st two tests which meant they went 2-0 down.

There bowlers then failed to kill of englands batting when they had them on the ropes in 4th and 5th tests cosr thing the games.

Same thing in NZ - poor batting and again indias inability to run through kiwis lower order cost them the game.

India have lost in all 3 places for same reasons.

But this is a great team because it did well in Aus. Which shows there batsmen can play pace and bounce but cant play moving ball else where.
 
And at same time has 7 out of 7 series loses in new zealand, South africa and england.

Jai hind india. Why dont you go do bhangra over all the great performances in those series.

7-0 series loses pretty much hammered in every series, just like ur brain cells have been hammered with fact you always fail to mention this.

To be the greatest Asian Test team, you do not have to win every series. You only need to do better than other Asian sides. It is relative.

This is the greatest Asian Test side because their list of achievements are simply greater than other Asian Test sides of the past.

If they had won in South Africa, England and New Zealand as well, they would be compared to West Indies and Australia. However, that is not the case. They are nowhere that level but they are better than other Asian sides of the past.
 
To be the greatest Asian Test team, you do not have to win every series. You only need to do better than other Asian sides. It is relative.

This is the greatest Asian Test side because their list of achievements are simply greater than other Asian Test sides of the past.

If they had won in South Africa, England and New Zealand as well, they would be compared to West Indies and Australia. However, that is not the case. They are nowhere that level but they are better than other Asian sides of the past.

Oh so again performance in Austalia is the bench for a great Asian side is it?

No team had ever won in SA until SL did so why isnt that used is a yard stick?

Lets just select one venue to push your agenda hey. Laughable to say least.
 
Please enlighten me how they were poor in SA or england.

There batting was average in SA.

In england there batting failed in 3 out of 4 inns in 1st two tests which meant they went 2-0 down.

There bowlers then failed to kill of englands batting when they had them on the ropes in 4th and 5th tests cosr thing the games.

Same thing in NZ - poor batting and again indias inability to run through kiwis lower order cost them the game.

India have lost in all 3 places for same reasons.

But this is a great team because it did well in Aus. Which shows there batsmen can play pace and bounce but cant play moving ball else where.

Their batting in SA when SA itself could not score runs in their home ground? Did you see any tests or going by Cricinfo?

If you think their performance in SA/Eng was the same as their performance in NZ, it's useless to talk.
 
Their batting in SA when SA itself could not score runs in their home ground? Did you see any tests or going by Cricinfo?

If you think their performance in SA/Eng was the same as their performance in NZ, it's useless to talk.

Prove it otherwise how indias performances were different in ENG and SA compared to NZ?

Wheres your proof? Or just going to cry like all other indians about toss? Weather? Luck? Etc...

I watched all 3 series. I await your response then i will detail how india lost in all 3 places.

Which ive already done on england series on another thread.

The only time india done well is when both batsmen and bowlers have done a job. Where one of units has failed or both they have lost.

India have lost all the series because of

Poor batting
Poor bowling (failure to knock over teams lower orders in tight situatuons)
Dropped catches.

Keep hiding being the toss, weather and luck excuse so you can stay in denial out how poor india have been on tour in these places.
 
Oh so again performance in Austalia is the bench for a great Asian side is it?

No team had ever won in SA until SL did so why isnt that used is a yard stick?

Lets just select one venue to push your agenda hey. Laughable to say least.

If the Sri Lanka team that won in South Africa in 2019 goes onto achieving the highs this India team has, they would also be considered the greatest Asian Test team.

India won not once but twice in Australia, and they also dismissed the notion that they only won in 2018 because Smith and Warner weren’t there.

They outclassed full-strength Australia with their fringe players and solidified their claim as the GOAT Asian Test side.

I repeat - the following list of achievements tower over the achievements of all Asian Test sides of the past:

- longest reign as the number 1 side for any Asian team ever

- longest reign as the number 1 side among all teams in the 2010-20 decade

- back to back series wins in Australia against one of the greatest attacks Australia has ever fielded.

The second win also came against arguably the greatest batsman Australia has produced since Bradman and who was kept quiet in 3 out of 4 matches. Moreover, India were playing its fringe players.

- their captain has 36 Test wins which is 22 greater than Imran Khan and 9 more than the second most prolific Asian Test captain. He is not even down yet and well on his way to achieving 50+ Test wins as captain.

All these achievements are accumulatively greater than the achievements of previous Asian Test sides.
 
Prove it otherwise how indias performances were different in ENG and SA compared to NZ?

Wheres your proof? Or just going to cry like all other indians about toss? Weather? Luck? Etc...

I watched all 3 series. I await your response then i will detail how india lost in all 3 places.

Which ive already done on england series on another thread.

The only time india done well is when both batsmen and bowlers have done a job. Where one of units has failed or both they have lost.

India have lost all the series because of

Poor batting
Poor bowling (failure to knock over teams lower orders in tight situatuons)
Dropped catches.

Keep hiding being the toss, weather and luck excuse so you can stay in denial out how poor india have been on tour in these places.

Oh, you watched India playing in SA, Eng, and NZ and yet think that they were equally poor in those 3 places. Glad that you cleared it up.
 
DRS has made playing spin more difficult. Batsmen are too scared to use pads to fend off the ball these days. The more bat you use, higher the chance of getting out.

Batting certainly is more difficult today than 2000s - 2010s.

That's true and it should be kept in mind when we talk about the spin playing ability of the previous generation vs current generation. It is much harder to bat against spin now. Yes, good players will still do well, but on average its much harder.
 
India vs South Africa

1st test - South Africa 142/5 - south Africas last 5 wickets put on 134 so go to 286. That effort by the tail pretty much won them the game with 1st inns lead.

INDIAS Bowlers failed to kill SA off in 1st inns.

2nd test - teams pretty even on 1st inns. Then 2nd inns SA 163/5 - philander coming at 7 which shows how long SA tail is. Yet again SA tail put on 90 plus runs which again was decuding factor in game.

INDIAs bowlers failed to kill SA off in 2nd inns.

3rd test - India wins as 1st inns is pretty much level. In 2nd inns this time round indias tail last 4 wickets in a balanced match situation put on 99 runs which is the difference in match.

The series was won by SA because on 2 occasions india failed to go for kill when they had SA on the ropes.

In NZ (2 tests)

1st test - india bowled out 165 however they have NZ 216/6 so still just in game yet let NZ get 348. So again indias bowlers fail to go through teams lower order cheapily. That huge lead wins NZ the game.

2nd test - 1st inns level, india collapses 2nd inns and costs them the game.

So once again india has a chance in match yet poor cricket with bat costs them the game.

England 5 tests.

1st test - chasing 192 batting fails.
2nd test - batting fails both inns and loses.
3rd test - india perform with bat both inns and win match
4th test - england 86/6 and tail gets england 246. 2nd inns 122/5 and get 271. So indias bowlers to blame for failing to kill off england
5th tests - england 177/6 in 1st get 332. Again in a tight matcg indias bowlers fail to do a job.

Have a look through all 3 series

Either indias batting has flopped.

Or

There bowlers in tight situation havent done there job.

Similar defeats in all 3 locations.

But lets us indians just cry about the toss, weather and luck rather than same failings by the team all the time.

Fact india have not been able to take last 4/5 wickets of opposition cheaply has cost them or there batting has folded.
 
Oh, you watched India playing in SA, Eng, and NZ and yet think that they were equally poor in those 3 places. Glad that you cleared it up.

Ive just cleared that up with my response after urs. Yet you still havent told me how indias performances were different.

Feel free to keep crying with your lame excuses.
 
80’s was easily the weakest decade for spin bowling. Pakistani batsmen of the 80’s were not tested by spinners of the caliber of Warne, Muralitharan, Ashwin, Lyon, Jadeja, Swann, Herath etc.

Kohli’s India bullied Australia twice in Australia with a bowling attack that would rank among the greatest Australia has ever fielded.

Imran’s Pakistan failed to win in Australia then and they will fail to win in Australia today against Cummins, Hazlewood, Starc and Lyon.

The Indian team that Imran’s Pakistan beat was far inferior to the current Indian side.

Still Imran's team is the only team to win a Test series in India from 1985-1999. No other team apart from Imran's Pakistan won a Test series in India in this period of 15 years, yet you will have us all believe that series win in India by Imran's team was meaningless :))
 
Still Imran's team is the only team to win a Test series in India from 1985-1999. No other team apart from Imran's Pakistan won a Test series in India in this period of 15 years, yet you will have us all believe that series win in India by Imran's team was meaningless :))

That is because Pakistan was a stronger Test team than India during that period. India were hard to beat at home for non-Asian sides but Pakistan had the same strengths as India and India’s tactics that made them very difficult to beat for others did not work against Pakistan.

It is like how India would have beaten Pakistan in the UAE when Pakistan did not lose a series to Australia, England, South Africa, New Zealand etc.

Not sure why this is so hard to understand, no one is arguing that India was a better Test side than Pakistan in the 80s and 90s. The point is that Kohli’s India is a better side than Imran’s Pakistan.
 
Australia had various different combination of bowlers along side mcgrath/warne axis that were good as a 4 man bowling. Thats one of the reasons they were so good for so long.

Cummings is world class yes. Hazelwood is a good bowler at best. Starc and lyon intests overall are nothing to rave on Bout.

Also i asked you before what exactly have these 4 acheived as a bowling attack against decent side enlighten me?

You are still avoiding the question but I don’t blame you because you dug yourself a hole.

You dismissed the notion that the current Australian attack is one of their best ever, but you have failed with flying colors to list your top 5 Australian attacks of all time excluding the current one.

Yes the McGrath and Warne attack was better than the current one just like the sky is blue, but if you look at all the bowling attacks that Australia has fielded since WWII, the current attack of Cummins, Hazlewood, Starc and Lyon is as good as any attack that Australia have fielding in the last 50-60 years excluding the 2000s attack.

You are dismissive of this attack but you have failed to name better attacks. It says it all.
 
Oh, you watched India playing in SA, Eng, and NZ and yet think that they were equally poor in those 3 places. Glad that you cleared it up.

I've tried arguing with Amjid but he seems to be riled up by Mamoon's posts more than anything else lol. Otherwise he wouldn't miss the obvious difference, if he indeed has watched all the series as he claims.

We are in an era of home dominant teams where touring teams throw in the towel at the first sign of adversity. If a series is indeed close and competitive, forget about the fans who will be biased, the commentators and pundits would be singing praises about the series like the last Border Gavaskar trophy or India's last tour of England when a lot of english commentators were calling it as a highly entertaining and watchable series, as was the reaction during India's tour of South Africa. This was not the case in India's previous tour of England in 2014 when India got flattened after the Lord's victory in the 2nd test and it was all one way traffic.

To me, to know if a series is competitive or not, I would look at the state of the match before the commencement of the last innings of the match. If the visiting team is not out of the match by then and still with a chance of winning or drawing the match, then it means the visitors have competed well into the final days of the match and therefore it's a very close match.

Take India's tour of South Africa in 2017:

1st test at Cape Town: India were set a target of 205 to win. They were still with a chance of winning that test.

2nd test at Centurion: India were set a target of 245. Slightly stiffer target but by no means an impossible one to chase. Most people would give 60-40 or 55-45 to the bowling team with a chance of defending that total.

And in India's tour of England in 2018:

1st test at Edgbaston: India were set a target of 194 to win the match. India were with a good chance of winning that match before the 4th innings started.

4th test at Southampton: India were set a target of 245. Again, same chances as the Centurion test. India were not out of the match before the 4th innings started.

There's no point in saying the Indian batting failed in this juncture and the Indian bowling failed in this juncture of the match. Of course, that's obvious because if they hadn't failed, they would have won the match. That's common sense. But the fact of the matter is that, despite the Indian bowling failing to bowl out England's lower order batsmen cheaply, India were still not out of the match and were in fact with a good chance of winning the tests in Edgbaston and Cape Town. That tells you how close those matches were.

Now take India's tour of New Zealand in 2019:

Before the commencement of the last innings of each test in that series, this was the state of the match -

In the 1st test at Wellington: New Zealand had to score 9 runs to win the test.

In the 2nd test at Christchurch: New Zealand had to chase 132 runs to win the test.

India were well out of the match even before the last innings started, India got comprehensively outplayed by NZ in that series unlike the ones in South Africa and England where India competed hard till the last day, but ultimately fell short due to some shortcomings.

If one cannot see the difference between the two scenarios, I mean I know this is Pakpassion and all, but surely you must dial down some of that passion to bring some objectivity to the discussion.
 
I've tried arguing with Amjid but he seems to be riled up by Mamoon's posts more than anything else lol. Otherwise he wouldn't miss the obvious difference, if he indeed has watched all the series as he claims.

We are in an era of home dominant teams where touring teams throw in the towel at the first sign of adversity. If a series is indeed close and competitive, forget about the fans who will be biased, the commentators and pundits would be singing praises about the series like the last Border Gavaskar trophy or India's last tour of England when a lot of english commentators were calling it as a highly entertaining and watchable series, as was the reaction during India's tour of South Africa. This was not the case in India's previous tour of England in 2014 when India got flattened after the Lord's victory in the 2nd test and it was all one way traffic.

To me, to know if a series is competitive or not, I would look at the state of the match before the commencement of the last innings of the match. If the visiting team is not out of the match by then and still with a chance of winning or drawing the match, then it means the visitors have competed well into the final days of the match and therefore it's a very close match.

Take India's tour of South Africa in 2017:

1st test at Cape Town: India were set a target of 205 to win. They were still with a chance of winning that test.

2nd test at Centurion: India were set a target of 245. Slightly stiffer target but by no means an impossible one to chase. Most people would give 60-40 or 55-45 to the bowling team with a chance of defending that total.

And in India's tour of England in 2018:

1st test at Edgbaston: India were set a target of 194 to win the match. India were with a good chance of winning that match before the 4th innings started.

4th test at Southampton: India were set a target of 245. Again, same chances as the Centurion test. India were not out of the match before the 4th innings started.

There's no point in saying the Indian batting failed in this juncture and the Indian bowling failed in this juncture of the match. Of course, that's obvious because if they hadn't failed, they would have won the match. That's common sense. But the fact of the matter is that, despite the Indian bowling failing to bowl out England's lower order batsmen cheaply, India were still not out of the match and were in fact with a good chance of winning the tests in Edgbaston and Cape Town. That tells you how close those matches were.

Now take India's tour of New Zealand in 2019:

Before the commencement of the last innings of each test in that series, this was the state of the match -

In the 1st test at Wellington: New Zealand had to score 9 runs to win the test.

In the 2nd test at Christchurch: New Zealand had to chase 132 runs to win the test.

India were well out of the match even before the last innings started, India got comprehensively outplayed by NZ in that series unlike the ones in South Africa and England where India competed hard till the last day, but ultimately fell short due to some shortcomings.

If one cannot see the difference between the two scenarios, I mean I know this is Pakpassion and all, but surely you must dial down some of that passion to bring some objectivity to the discussion.

So your telling me that indias failures to bowl opposition out cheaply when they had team 5 wickets down isnt an issue?

End of day if indias bowlers had done there jobs then india would have had lower targets to chase. Keep burying your head in the sand as thats supposidly not an issue.

Nor is indis poor efforts with the bat an issue either?

If a team has a target to chase in last inns doesnt neccisarrily mean the game has been competative.

Why no mention of the oval tests? India were chasing a target there wasnt that competative according to your logic?
 
So your telling me that indias failures to bowl opposition out cheaply when they had team 5 wickets down isnt an issue?

End of day if indias bowlers had done there jobs then india would have had lower targets to chase. Keep burying your head in the sand as thats supposidly not an issue.

Nor is indis poor efforts with the bat an issue either?

If a team has a target to chase in last inns doesnt neccisarrily mean the game has been competative.

Why no mention of the oval tests? India were chasing a target there wasnt that competative according to your logic?

Are you even serious mate? Why do you keep repeating "India failing to bowl England's lower order not an issue?", "India not failing to chase the target not an issue?"..

Yeah, if they had done that, they would've won the match and we wouldn't be discussing it here. Your problem is that you seem to have a deep seated problem with India. Your letting your political bias get the better of your cricketing judgement and don't seem to recognise the difference between a competitive match and an uncompetitive match, your political bias is also why you seem to believe that any match that India loses is an uncompetitive match. Otherwise anybody who has half decent knowledge of the game of cricket would tell you that any match where the losing team falls short by a margin of 30 runs is hardly an uncompetitive match.
 
Are you even serious mate? Why do you keep repeating "India failing to bowl England's lower order not an issue?", "India not failing to chase the target not an issue?"..

Yeah, if they had done that, they would've won the match and we wouldn't be discussing it here. Your problem is that you seem to have a deep seated problem with India. Your letting your political bias get the better of your cricketing judgement and don't seem to recognise the difference between a competitive match and an uncompetitive match, your political bias is also why you seem to believe that any match that India loses is an uncompetitive match. Otherwise anybody who has half decent knowledge of the game of cricket would tell you that any match where the losing team falls short by a margin of 30 runs is hardly an uncompetitive match.

:))) you keep on harping on about political bias. Ive just stated my opinion just like another other fan on here.

Thats the whole point of a sports forum. Well done for acknowledging the the points i made that were critical to indias defeats.

The 1st indian fan on this forum not to cry about the toss or luck etc.. well done. Il make sure MIG or SAJ gives you an award.

Unless india resolve these problems i mentioned then they will lose the series again away to england again. End of day a loss by 20 runs or 100 runs etc.. is irrelevant as the final series score will all both teams playing in series will care about.

Playing 7, 8, 9 series in NZ/SA/ENG and being competativeas you call it in a results driven enviroment is still a loss when series results have occurred.

Prime example in another support. As an Arsenal fan we have played man city twice this season and lost 1-0 both games. That could be seen as competative as only lost each game by a goal. Facts are a loss is loss and no real fans will remember if a team just competed.

If i was an indian fan and for the talent this team has and they kept losing series in same places i wouldnt see it as acceptable.
 
:))) you keep on harping on about political bias. Ive just stated my opinion just like another other fan on here.

Thats the whole point of a sports forum. Well done for acknowledging the the points i made that were critical to indias defeats.

The 1st indian fan on this forum not to cry about the toss or luck etc.. well done. Il make sure MIG or SAJ gives you an award.

Unless india resolve these problems i mentioned then they will lose the series again away to england again. End of day a loss by 20 runs or 100 runs etc.. is irrelevant as the final series score will all both teams playing in series will care about.

Playing 7, 8, 9 series in NZ/SA/ENG and being competativeas you call it in a results driven enviroment is still a loss when series results have occurred.

Prime example in another support. As an Arsenal fan we have played man city twice this season and lost 1-0 both games. That could be seen as competative as only lost each game by a goal. Facts are a loss is loss and no real fans will remember if a team just competed.

If i was an indian fan and for the talent this team has and they kept losing series in same places i wouldnt see it as acceptable.

Your problem is you're viewing this through the perspective of a fan. Whether a match is competitive or not has hardly anything to do with if your team has lost, because in any game, one team is bound to lose and just because it's a lose doesn't mean the game wasn't competitive.

A competitive match means if it was entertaining from start to finish, that's all. It can be between two flawed sides but as long as the result is in the balance till the last day, it's a competitive game. It matters jacksh*t what I feel about the team I support, what matters is how entertaining it is to the neutral viewer and by the accounts of most ex players, commentators and neutral fans, it was a very competitive series, unlike the NZ series where India lost the game often in the first innings itself. There's no point in continuing this discussion further.
 
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