Why are Gujarati Muslims (especially here in the UK) so fiercely anti-Pakistani?

[Wasim_Waqar]

They are quite a religious bunch.

But for some reason they only hate on Pakistanis.

Is it a feeling of having to show their Hindu brothers that they are more Indian by hating Pakistanis?

 

[Runner Up]

Can't comment as I don't know anything about them. Can you please share any experience you had as to why you think like that?

 

[KingKhanWC]

Well it's not just them but most Indian Muslims are anti-Pakistani for some reason. A lot of them probably feel they need to show their patriotism towards India even more so than Hindu's or Sikhs.

I wouldn't be too harsh on them when we have Pakistani's who are pro-Indian, including many bihari's and other travellers from across the east. You will rarely find them criticise India.

 

[IgnitedMind]

Lot of Indians are anti - Pakistani..not just Indian muslims!!!! Its an Indian thing..not a muslim thing!!

 

[Down2Earth]

I know a gujarati girl that doesn't like pakistan but her brothers support pakistan in cricket, go figure

And yes, they're very religious.

 

[Bewal Express]

Brutal truth is that Pakistanis don`t like Pakistan much either. Ignore the huff and puff, when push comes to shove most Pakistanis will quite happily rob their country.

 

[RWAC]

To all those posters "theorizing" that Gujarati (or other Indian) Muslims show a hate for Pakistan just to prove their loyalty to other Indians, how many people have specifically alluded that to you in person?


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[Wasim_Waqar]

Experiences?

Indian Muslim with hijab- yeah I went to Srinagar and Jammu. Jammu was scary with all those Indian army with guns- there are so many of them.

Me: I can't stand them. They make me sick. They rape and loot...and kill. Two young Kashmiri hijabis were killed after rape.

Indian Muslim: "Oh well, s*** happens."

Also, she was half-Pakistani. She said that she's not Pakistani. She's also marrying one as well.

She said that she hates Pakistanis.

I've heard that it's quite prominent in places like Blackburn.

When it's Gujarat massacre, they want all the sympathy and us to talk up for them. When it's us getting raped etc, s*** happens.

That girl also said "my grandmother said, don't trust a Pakistani."

 

[KingKhanWC]

Wont you be mad if Pakistani Hindus lift a Indian Flag? This issue is patriotic issue....not a religious ...tommarrow if India and Nepal had to compete in something....People would be mad if some hindus waved nepal's flag in India ....

People are free to do as they wish as long as they don't break the law. As far as I know raising any flag in Pakistan is not a crime.

The flag incident is just an example. The best example the pressured silence over Kashmir. Indian Muslims should be making loud noises over this, so much it should be solved by now but they are scared of protesting because they would be seen as traitors. Personally I would find it difficult to be a Muslim in India.

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

KKWC,

My example above illustrates it.

 

[mani1]

Experiences?

Indian Muslim with hijab- yeah I went to Srinagar and Jammu. Jammu was scary with all those Indian army with guns- there are so many of them.

Me: I can't stand them. They make me sick. They rape and loot...and kill. Two young Kashmiri hijabis were killed after rape.

Indian Muslim: "Oh well, s*** happens."

Also, she was half-Pakistani. She said that she's not Pakistani. She's also marrying one as well.

She said that she hates Pakistanis.

I've heard that it's quite prominent in places like Blackburn.

When it's Gujarat massacre, they want all the sympathy and us to talk up for them. When it's us getting raped etc, s*** happens.

That girl also said "my grandmother said, don't trust a Pakistani."

To be fair one Patel from Dewbury said to my face "My Pakistani friends say to me never do business with Mirpuris" amongst other disgusting stuff.
Also similar stuff about Pathans too so we cant really single out Gujratis.

 

[IgnitedMind]

To all those posters "theorizing" that Gujarati (or other Indian) Muslims show a hate for Pakistan just to prove their loyalty to other Indians, how many people have specifically alluded that to you in person?


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Apparently Indian muslim should not dislike pakistan like other Indians(whether disliking by anybody is right is different issues)..otherwise they are playing to Indian Hindus Muslim...

 

[Gattuso]

People are free to do as they wish as long as they don't break the law. As far as I know raising any flag in Pakistan is not a crime.

That has go to be one liberal Pakistan we all are unaware of.
Try raising the British flag over your house the next time you visit Pakistan and tell me the response.

 

[cricf@n]

its just a vice versa some pakistani muslim hates indian muslim and some indian muslim hates pakistani muslims....it will never stop...

 

[dps2009]

The best example the pressured silence over Kashmir. Indian Muslims should be making loud noises over this, so much it should be solved by now but they are scared of protesting because they would be seen as traitors. Personally I would find it difficult to be a Muslim in India.

Let me assure you there is not pressured silence. The rest of indian muslims just don't care about the kashmir issue enough .
Indian muslims are fundmentally different from pak muslims ( for the most part, of course there are small pockets of islamic fundamentalists like hydrabad). Thankfully the majority of the civic leaders of muslims in india have also gotten away from the hardline to moderate positions.Also the general impression in indian minds( including indian muslims) of pak meddling in kashmir affairs and sending insurgents across the border has played a part in diminishing sympathy for the kashmiris.

 

[RWAC]

Yeah why can't people just see them as just Indians having a dislike for Pakistan for whatever reasons, just like
other Indians.

But no, it gets the Pakistanis in a frenzy about how a Muslim would dislike another Muslims from another country, when that is something happens even within Muslims from different tribes in the same country.

And hence comes the theories of submission, meekness and show-of-loyalty to other Indians just so it gives them a piece of mind.


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[IgnitedMind]

[People are free to do as they wish as long as they don't break the law. As far as I know raising any flag in Pakistan is not a crime.

The flag incident is just an example. The best example the pressured silence over Kashmir. Indian Muslims should be making loud noises over this, so much it should be solved by now but they are scared of protesting because they would be seen as traitors. Personally I would find it difficult to be a Muslim in India.

Really????? So Nobody will say a word if a Pakisani hindu has an indian flag in pakistan in front of his noise....? oh.....the liberal mindset of pakistanis...wish they had it before writing blasphemy laws!!

and about the other incident...Indian muslims are busy with their lives...many islamic organizations protest against kashmir and they are doing it....why would indian muslim from all over india have time for kashmir!!!!!

 

[akheR]

The only pro-Pakistan Indian Muslims I'd expect would be in U.P. or Hyderabad TBH.

 

[IgnitedMind]

Let me assure you there is not pressured silence. The rest of indian muslims just don't care about the kashmir issue enough .
Indian muslims are fundmentally different from pak muslims ( for the most part, of course there are small pockets of islamic fundamentalists like hydrabad). Thankfully the majority of the civic leaders of muslims in india have also gotten away from the hardline to moderate positions.Also the general impression in indian minds( including indian muslims) of pak meddling in kashmir affairs and sending insurgents across the border has played a part in diminishing sympathy for the kashmiris.

Exactly!!!

 

[RWAC]

Let me assure you there is not pressured silence. The rest of indian muslims just don't care about the kashmir issue enough .
Indian muslims are fundmentally different from pak muslims ( for the most part, of course there are small pockets of islamic fundamentalists like hydrabad). Thankfully the majority of the civic leaders of muslims in india have also gotten away from the hardline to moderate positions.Also the general impression in indian minds( including indian muslims) of pak meddling in kashmir affairs and sending insurgents across the border has played a part in diminishing sympathy for the kashmiris.

Dps you should be the mouthpiece of the average Indian Muslim (or at least most that I have met). That's how exactly I find them to be. Just Indian like any other Indian. Not because they are being pressurized/submissioned in to doing so.

Maybe hearing this from a Muslim would make Pakistanis understand better that Indian Muslims, on average,
think fundamentally different from the Pakistani ones.


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[mani1]

The only pro-Pakistan Indian Muslims I'd expect would be in U.P. or Hyderabad TBH.

This is true a family friend of mine from there has confirmed how Pakistan is the cricket team of choice in his area at least.

 

[IgnitedMind]

Dps you should be the mouthpiece of the average Indian Muslim (or at least most that I have met). That's how exactly I find them to be. Just Indian like any other Indian. Not because they are being pressurized/submissioned in to doing so.

Maybe hearing this from a Muslim would make Pakistanis understand better that Indian Muslims, on average,
think fundamentally different from the Pakistani ones.


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People hear from people who say what they want to hear.

 

[azhar329]

Rightly said, most of them don't subscribe to the "ummah" nonsense..

Watch your mouth. I could talk about your religion, your way of life, your family in a certain way. Try to demonstrate some decency when referring to Islam in the same manner I have in relation to hinduism.

 

[Hasnain_786]

I know a Gujarati friend who is anti-indian

 

[irfan]

That has go to be one liberal Pakistan we all are unaware of.
Try raising the British flag over your house the next time you visit Pakistan and tell me the response.

Why what will happen? We used to have a Union Jack flying from our house for years in Lahore and I've seen it flown from houses in Gujranwala and in Azad Kashmir.

 

[vcool80]

"Malwaris"(Malabari/Kerala Mappila Muslims) Muslims and Pakistanis are really friendly to each other? may be because they are from south India, don't understand the history properly.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Would like to get Biriyani boi's input on this one ...

 

[Namak_Halaal]

Well it's not just them but most Indian Muslims are anti-Pakistani for some reason.

KKWC, do you know why Indian Muslims are anti-Pakistani? It's because Indian Muslims have never experienced Azaadi.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Generally the Indian muslims hate Pakistanis much more than the Hindus or Sikhs do. All the muslim brothers i have come across can't even tolerate the word Pakistan being mentioned.

 

[insaan]

My experiences.

My Muslim friends supported Pakistan Cricket team in the 1990s, they switched over to Indian Team in the 2000s. We used to have debates on who is better, Youhana or Dravid.

Again, supporting cricket team means nothing.

Two of my Muslim friends who have relatives in Pakistan, said they grew up hating Pakistan, and had arguments with their Pakistani cousins over which country is better.

Know only one Gujrati Muslim, and she had extreme hatred for Pakistan.

Apart from these examples, other Muslim friends don't think bad about Pakistan. As in they do not rejoice in any bad thing happening in Pakistan.

Know only one Kashmiri friend, a Muslim. He would be diplomatic and nice, and will speak on his objections against the Army when pressed. Not sure whether he hated Pakistan, but he did not like the Indian Army for sure.

Again, cant measure how many hate Pakistan. These are just my experiences.

 

[Gattuso]

Why what will happen? We used to have a Union Jack flying from our house for years in Lahore and I've seen it flown from houses in Gujranwala and in Azad Kashmir.

Learning new things everyday - that really is surprising.

 

[Looney]

Pakistani Memon Gujaratis , Indian Gujaratis or Punjabis of Gujrat ?

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

Sorry: I meant Indian Gujaratis

 

[Asif khan]

Experiences?

Indian Muslim with hijab- yeah I went to Srinagar and Jammu. Jammu was scary with all those Indian army with guns- there are so many of them.

Me: I can't stand them. They make me sick. They rape and loot...and kill. Two young Kashmiri hijabis were killed after rape.

Indian Muslim: "Oh well, s*** happens."

Also, she was half-Pakistani. She said that she's not Pakistani. She's also marrying one as well.

She said that she hates Pakistanis.

I've heard that it's quite prominent in places like Blackburn.

When it's Gujarat massacre, they want all the sympathy and us to talk up for them. When it's us getting raped etc, s*** happens.

That girl also said "my grandmother said, don't trust a Pakistani."

It's very true in Blackburn where there is a large mix of Gujratis and Pakistanis. Most of the Gujratis see the Pakistanis as uncivilised and are appalled by the apparent biddah due to them being strict Jamaatis.

 

[dzor]

My father always told me, 'I don't hate Indians, it only the Pakistani government and Indian Government who hate each other', is this true?

 

[azhar329]

He didn't say anything against Islam dude, what's wrong with you?

The concept of ummah/brotherhood is an established principle of Islam and I dont think its appropriate for him to refer to it as nonsense. For the majority of muslims the ummah is an important concept and for all the muslims worldwide it should be. Ive never referred to any aspect of hinduism on this forum as nonsense and you can check my posts. Before asking whats wrong with me its better you ask why I wrote what I did.

@Gattuso: apology accepted.

 

[Looney]

Sorry: I meant Indian Gujaratis

Once my friend asked an Indian girl what her religion is , her reply : " I am Gujarati ! "

Gujarati is not a religion , it is an ethnicity but you can tell this mentality is a lot like the Jewish people who say being Jewish is a race , ethnicity and religion - everything to them .

Let me tell you , Gujarati people tend to be pretty racist and to this day follow the caste system . They prefer their Gujarati Hindus of their own caste first , then come other Gujarati Hindus , then Gujarati Muslims and then other Indians .

 

[the Great Khan]

Ive lived with them for 30 years..plenty to tell

 

[Bhaijaan]

The concept of ummah/brotherhood is an established principle of Islam and I dont think its appropriate for him to refer to it as nonsense. For the majority of muslims the ummah is an important concept and for all the muslims worldwide it should be. Ive never referred to any aspect of hinduism on this forum as nonsense and you can check my posts. Before asking whats wrong with me its better you ask why I wrote what I did.

@Gattuso: apology accepted.

Many principles of all religions are ridiculed by people, many times by people of the same faith. That doesn't mean they are insulting the religion itself. The Ummah term has been subject of many discussions, i have seen Muslims saying on tv its nothing but dream selling. You don't really have to be so touchy about it.

 

[KingKhanWC]

KKWC, do you know why Indian Muslims are anti-Pakistani? It's because Indian Muslims have never experienced Azaadi.

I think that's the bottom line here. No matter the living conditions there is always a sense of pride when you have broken away, free to rule yourselves which Indian Muslims have missed out on. I suppose this makes them more pro-Indian, giving them a sense of patriotism.

Who knows one day in the future they too may want to break away but this is long way off at the moment.

 

[IgnitedMind]

^^^^^^

Lets see..

There are Indian muslims in India where their families have lived for generations together with a sense of patriotism to India..under THEIR Indian government bestowed with equal rights

And then there are British Muslims living in present day British (the country which ruled pakistan for a long time) immigrated recently or as long as probably 30/40 yrs..living under the Secular british govt, the queen and following their rules talking about the freedom of broken away, being free to rule themselves and what Indian muslims are missing out on...

aaah.....okay!!

 

[akheR]

^^^^^^

Lets see..

There are Indian muslims in India where their families have lived for generations together with a sense of patriotism to India..under THEIR Indian government bestowed with equal rights

And then there are British Muslims living in present day British (the country which ruled pakistan for a long time) immigrated recently or as long as probably 30/40 yrs..under the Secular british govt, the queen and following their rules talking about the freedom of broken away, being free to rule themselves and what Indian muslims are missing out on...

aaah.....okay!!

lolwut ?

 

[IgnitedMind]

I mean british pakistanis!!

 

[Bhaijaan]

LOL at The Azadi of Pakistani muslims and Indian muslim slavery Is this supposed to make us laugh? And then Ummah related comment is taken offensively.

 

[zzebie]

I think it's the way countries are structured. Significant part of the Muslim community in India used to have a soft corner for Pakistan. Last few decades they are more integrated in the Indian society, which should be the case. As for some poster here talking about azaadi, India is an azaad country and so are its residents, just like i am assuming Muslims living in the UK are azaad, right?

And as far as Gujaratis are concerned, i have noted something similar in tamilians, it's like Hindus, Muslims or Christians, they are tamil first more than any other thing, religion etc follow.

 

[Gattuso]

Who knows one day in the future they too may want to break away but this is long way off at the moment.

All comfy there in Britain ?

And then you wonder why we bring up Bangladesh and Balochistan everytime. What you wish upon us has happened to you before and is going to happen to you many more times on this essentially flawed basis of thinking.

Why do the Gujarati muslims hate you guys I wonder..jeeezzz..thats a hard one

 

[KingKhanWC]

^^^^^^

Lets see..

There are Indian muslims in India where their families have lived for generations together with a sense of patriotism to India..under THEIR Indian government bestowed with equal rights

And then there are British Muslims living in present day British (the country which ruled pakistan for a long time) immigrated recently or as long as probably 30/40 yrs..living under the Secular british govt, the queen and following their rules talking about the freedom of broken away, being free to rule themselves and what Indian muslims are missing out on...

aaah.....okay!!

The day the British government allow a mosque to be ripped down by fascists and then given parts of the land away to those fascists then I will agree Britain is as bad for British Pakistani's as India is for Indian Muslims.

Muslims are more azzad in Britain than they will ever be in Hindustan.

 

[desi_boy]

I respect it as a term in a religeous book - but to stretch it so as to incite/sideline Muslims in other countries to be traitors is what I despise. The Maulana Madani's reply to Musharraf's "concern for Indian muslims" is the most apt reply for this.

Those actions by "some muslims" is what adds fuel to the fire of the Hindu extremists and is the main reason why the other innocent muslims sometimes face the wrath of the hindu extremists.

The term "Ummah" refers to those in the entire Muslim population that feel some sort of religious bond towards each other.......it is not used to incite/sideline muslims to be traitors against the countries of their brith/residences........Also Prophet Muhammad PBUH himself has described his people as ummah and there are several references of how he saw his people as being one despite their ethnicity, place of birth or residence.......As for today, you can have a debate whether Muslims today still constitute an Ummah in the same sence as used in the earlier days Islam in Arabia but you can't go on insult the term itself or use it for nefarious designs such as incite/sideline/treason as you put it.

As for Maulana Madni's Response to Musharraf.....As much as I dislike Musharraf, the Maulana's response was slightly hypocritcal but that is another debate.....if you'd like discuss that we can open another thread for it.

 

[akheR]

I mean british pakistanis!!

You mean Sharia law ?

And as far as Gujaratis are concerned, i have noted something similar in tamilians, it's like Hindus, Muslims or Christians, they are tamil first more than any other thing, religion etc follow.

In Punjab it may have been different.
Read that a Muslim and a Hindu couldn't drink from the same glass, let alone living in the same State : perhaps that's what made the struggle for Partition less apparent in non-North Western Indian zones.

In Bengal too, even if they have always been more liberal, society was polarized on religion AFAIK (landowners = Hindus ; labourers = Muslims.)

 

[Gattuso]

Muslims are more azzad in Britain than they will ever be in Hindustan.

And I can see them utilizing the 'azaadi' to the full extent based on the recent threads about what is happening there.....

 

[desi_boy]

Pakistani Memon Gujaratis , Indian Gujaratis or Punjabis of Gujrat ?

I had very odd experience with Indian Gujarati Muslim I met at a Masjid in Toronto once....... He thought Pakistani Gujratis and Indian Gujaratis were the same and spoke the same language (Gujarati instead of Punjabi/Urdu) since in his understanding the Pakistani Gujratis migrated from Indian Gujarat during Partition.....I tried to explain to him the geographical status/location of both to him (one as northeastern district of Pakistan close to Kashmir and the other Southwestern state of India) but he still didn't believe me........He still believes that all Pakistani Gujratis are infact migrants from India and despise India therefore they don't speak Gujarati in public as it will cause shame and discrimination against them.......At the time I didn't have a map with me otherwise I would've shown him the locations.

 

[zzebie]

You mean Sharia law ?



In Punjab it may have been different.
Read that a Muslim and a Hindu couldn't drink from the same glass, let alone living in the same State : perhaps that's what made the struggle for Partition less apparent in non-North Western Indian zones.

In Bengal too, even if they have always been more liberal, society was polarized on religion AFAIK (landowners = Hindus ; labourers = Muslims.)

Don't know about Bangladesh, but in the state of West Bengal in India, there was a huge Muslim population that was educated and pretty rich as well. More than religious, it was very regional. Certain areas with its population having all the goodies, and certain areas having nothing, not even basic drinking water facilities.
On a side note, it would be interesting to learn about Belgium from you, the role South Asian population plays in that country.

 

[Pure Evil]

I think I perfectly understand where they come from, just read this http://pakpassion.net/ppforum/showthread.php?t=153782&page=1

 

[90MPH]

Honestly I know many Gujrati hindus - I have never felt the anti-Pakistani sentiment. Even my mum is very good friends with one.

Maybe it's different in Northern England or with Gujrati Muslims for some - I really can't speak for others but I have no problems with them.
Even the Sikhs I know I never felt the anti Pakistani feeling. Obviously it's totally differerent in India.

 

[akheR]

Don't know about Bangladesh, but in the state of West Bengal in India, there was a huge Muslim population that was educated and pretty rich as well. More than religious, it was very regional. Certain areas with its population having all the goodies, and certain areas having nothing, not even basic drinking water facilities.

That's what I read.
And thought it would make sense, as the Pakistan movement in fact begin there, and was of popular inspiration, so I'd say that the rational reasons behind that are probably the social differences based on your religious affiliation.

On a side note, it would be interesting to learn about Belgium from you, the role South Asian population plays in that country.

In Belgium, the South Asian community is too tiny to have any social impact : few family's friends from Pakistan, know two Punjabi Sikh guys and one Indian girl was in my college...

Though there was one Pakistan famous in the 90s...

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/8-4Le7UxpjA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

...

Will have to be the torch-bearer of a future bright community.

 

[Looney]

I had very odd experience with Indian Gujarati Muslim I met at a Masjid in Toronto once....... He thought Pakistani Gujratis and Indian Gujaratis were the same and spoke the same language (Gujarati instead of Punjabi/Urdu) since in his understanding the Pakistani Gujratis migrated from Indian Gujarat during Partition.....I tried to explain to him the geographical status/location of both to him (one as northeastern district of Pakistan close to Kashmir and the other Southwestern state of India) but he still didn't believe me........He still believes that all Pakistani Gujratis are infact migrants from India and despise India therefore they don't speak Gujarati in public as it will cause shame and discrimination against them.......At the time I didn't have a map with me otherwise I would've shown him the locations.

Because you were both talking about different Gujaratis and you are both right . Gujrat is a small city in Punjab , the Chaudhry Brothers are from there . PML Q waale . Those people are not Gujaratis , they are Punjabi ethnically .

Then there are the Gujarati who originate from the Indian state of Gujarat and many of them live in Karachi , especially the Hyderi area . They speak the same Gujarati language to this day among themselves . You can find different sects among them : Sunni Memon , Aga Khanis , Bohras . If you have ever been to the Karachi Stock Exchange , you will find many of them there . They really are into business , investing and stock .

The Parsi community of Karachi also speaks Indian Gujarati language .

 

[Itachi]

Lol.... Is this a question? 1948, 1971, 1999.... Do i need to explain?

Fyi to people here, indian muslims put 'nationality' higher than 'muslim brotherhood'. A hard fact beyond imagination of some people here.

P.s. The hatered is more towards the pakistani political system than to common people. If someone blindly says 'i hate pakistanis', Dammn sure he'l be listening a big lecture atleast from me.

 

[zzebie]

That's what I read.
And thought it would make sense, as the Pakistan movement in fact begin there, and was of popular inspiration, so I'd say that the rational reasons behind that are probably the social differences based on your religious affiliation.



In Belgium, the South Asian community is too tiny to have any social impact : few family's friends from Pakistan, know two Punjabi Sikh guys and one Indian girl was in my college...

Though there was one Pakistan famous in the 90s...

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/8-4Le7UxpjA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

...

Will have to be the torch-bearer of a future bright community.

Good!

 

[ElRaja]

my personal experience of gujis is quite different, although they tend to enjoy taking the mic out of pakistanis every now and again, its nothing personal. i wouldnt call it hate, just banter, ive had quite a few guji friends and ive never felt any hate.

some people are a bit sensitive on this forum imo.

 

[Patriot]

They are quite a religious bunch.

But for some reason they only hate on Pakistanis.

Is it a feeling of having to show their Hindu brothers that they are more Indian by hating Pakistanis?

Everyone will have different experiences and you can't use you misconstrued experiences to generalise a particular group of people. For example at my local Masjid the Imam is a Gujrati, and I have the utmost respect for him and his family. They are very nice people and get along with all the local community, from Pakistanis, to other Indians to Kurds, etc, etc.

Rightly said, most of them don't subscribe to the "ummah" nonsense..

I think Allah explains it best in the Quran. In Surat 49, verse 13, Allah says:

"O mankind! Lo! We have created you male and female, and have made you nations and tribes that ye may know one another. Lo! the noblest of you, in the sight of Allah, is the best in conduct. Lo! Allah is Knower, Aware."

From this we can see that Allah recognises that people belong in different tribes and nations since he created them as such. So Indians should be proud of being Indians, and Pakistanis being proud of their own nationality, irrespective of religion. However, in the eyes of Allah the person who conducts himself the best is the noblest. A very beautiful verse indeed.

However your thinking that Muslims don't subscribe to the idea of an Ummah is a distortion. You need to readjust the lens you are using to analyse this. Yes at a Macro level, I would agree with you that there is no such thing as an Ummah. Nation states form alliances and treaties that transcend the religious "Brotherhood". However if you look at it at the micro level, then it is very clear that the Ummah does exist. What I mean is, the connection between a Muslims and another Muslim at the smallest level. And there is no better example than the Hajj, where Muslims from all over the world gather. The feeling is unexplainable and cannot be translated since there is no such other phenomena as this. I think this is what the Prophet meant when describing the Ummah.

 

[desi_boy]

Because you were both talking about different Gujaratis and you are both right . Gujrat is a small city in Punjab , the Chaudhry Brothers are from there . PML Q waale . Those people are not Gujaratis , they are Punjabi ethnically .

Then there are the Gujarati who originate from the Indian state of Gujarat and many of them live in Karachi , especially the Hyderi area . They speak the same Gujarati language to this day among themselves . You can find different sects among them : Sunni Memon , Aga Khanis , Bohras . If you have ever been to the Karachi Stock Exchange , you will find many of them there . They really are into business , investing and stock .

The Parsi community of Karachi also speaks Indian Gujarati language .

No, I made it perfectly clear to him about the people that lived in Gujrat (ethnic punjabis) in northeastern Pakistan and the Gujaratis that migrated to Pakistan and live in Sindh (karachi mostly).........but he still refused to believe that Punajbi Gujratis had absolutely nothing to do with Indian Gujarat!

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Well it's not just them but most Indian Muslims are anti-Pakistani for some reason. A lot of them probably feel they need to show their patriotism towards India even more so than Hindu's or Sikhs.

I wouldn't be too harsh on them when we have Pakistani's who are pro-Indian, including many bihari's and other travellers from across the east. You will rarely find them criticise India.

Trust me bro, when they are more comfortable around you they open up a bit more. Many of them are pro pakistani deep down and harbour resentment towards the hindu majority. They are just compelled to look anti pakistan to fit in.

 

[deviously~fading~away]

Lot of Indians are anti - Pakistani..not just Indian muslims!!!! Its an Indian thing..not a muslim thing!!

I know tons & tons of Indians. Never experienced any sort of anti-Pakistan feelings. In fact they always keep asking about Pakistani food, cities, clothing etc. Same goes with me. I disagree with certain Indian policies but that never reflects in my behavior with my Indian friends.

 

[Patriot]

Isn't that the work of the moderators ? And the said user compared Pakistan to "a dog attacking India" (map thread), Patriot, so he has a really plastic moral compass to reclaim some respect.

I did not read that. If he did then that was disgusting. But the other guy isn't exactly a saint with his comment.

I don't think it's only the moderator's responsibility to be civil and let people know that their posts are extreme. This is supposed to be a civilised discussion on a family forum.

 

[zzebie]

I didn't call the Indian posters murderers or rapists I meant generally the Indian public killed Muslims during part partion and now they try to stand side by side like nothing has happend . I have no authority I know that . When did I use offensive language to fellow ppers ? BTW if you did find my post offensive then I apologise . I genuinely didn't mean to upset anyone .

Nice post. Good on you.
Try to understand that partition was hard on both communities. There were lots of Hindu, Sikh families who just scraped out alive of Pakistan. Same atrocities that are attributed to the Indian side, were committed by the Pakistani side as well. Though not from the northern part of India, i personally know quite a few families(most of them Punjabi), who lost family members while trying to make it back to this side of the border.
It's true that people lost will never come back, but hopefully such bloody things don't happen again

 

[Itachi]

Isn't that the work of the moderators ? And the said user compared Pakistan to "a dog attacking India" (map thread), Patriot, so he has a really plastic moral compass to reclaim some respect.

akher, in that map thread, the question was, how does it looks like?

Someone saw it as dinosaur.

Someone saw as tiger.

Me and some other saw as running dog.

What's the difference in that?

Did i use the term dog in a degraded manner?

I don't think i needed to explain myself here but you are a very respected poster and if i hurt your feelings, i apologise and i'l ask the mod to delete that post as i can't edit it now.

 

[desi_boy]

I did not read that. If he did then that was disgusting. But the other guy isn't exactly a saint with his comment.

I don't think it's only the moderator's responsibility to be civil and let people know that their posts are extreme. This is supposed to be a civilised discussion on a family forum.

+1.....I know I don't often come on this forum but the only reason I even come on this forum and not go to others is because of high quality posts and generally a very civil environment created by the members......if the posts were being flagged by the mods left, right and center then it would be a poor advertisement for this board.

 

[IgnitedMind]

I know tons & tons of Indians. Never experienced any sort of anti-Pakistan feelings. In fact they always keep asking about Pakistani food, cities, clothing etc. Same goes with me. I disagree with certain Indian policies but that never reflects in my behavior with my Indian friends.

Very True. Most people are not ...but a lot of people are in both countries especially who have never met a pakistani/indian in real life.And the reason they are because they are Indian/pakistani and we have history between us ...all I was saying was reason is an Indian thing than a muslim thing..same goes for pakistanis!!!!

I have tonnes of Pakistanis friends ...and I like them as much as any other friends of mine. But if anybody hates it..its a national thing than a religious thing...that was my point.

 

[desi_boy]

Ok fine then ill change it to extremist Hindus and Sikhs . Plus i don't like people generalising about me and don't want to do it to others .

Sign of wise people is that they can admit their mistakes.....

 

[pakistanalltheway]

Nice post. Good on you.
Try to understand that partition was hard on both communities. There were lots of Hindu, Sikh families who just scraped out alive of Pakistan. Same atrocities that are attributed to the Indian side, were committed by the Pakistani side as well. Though not from the northern part of India, i personally know quite a few families(most of them Punjabi), who lost family members while trying to make it back to this side of the border.
It's true that people lost will never come back, but hopefully such bloody things don't happen again

inshallah

 

[Green Leopard]

Having lived in South Africa for 5 years where there is a large faction of Gujarati Muslims (Mainly Surti muslims and Bhoras), what I tended to find even after two generations, that this group was very nostalgic about India, but especially Gujarat. Especially the shia sect tended fiercely pro-indian Gujarat which is no surprise.

Not sure about their anti-Pakistan sentiments (I don't they had any), but they were proud to be Gujaratis, spoke Gujaratis (kids amongst themselves at school too!), and saw Gujarat as their ancestral home.

Anyone guess a famous South African Gujarati Muslim cricket with roots in Surat, India?

PS: On Surat, Gujarat, I think it's home to the oldest mosque (outside Arabia), so no surprise why Gujarati muslims have such affinity to Gujarat.

 

[akheR]

Anyone guess a famous South African Gujarati Muslim cricket with roots in Surat, India?

Sheikh Ahmed Deedat too was a Surti Gujurati.

They're the only Indian Muslim community with the ones in Kerala (the Mappilas) to have Arab genetic influences AFAIK.

 

[pakistanalltheway]

I did not read that. If he did then that was disgusting. But the other guy isn't exactly a saint with his comment.

I don't think it's only the moderator's responsibility to be civil and let people know that their posts are extreme. This is supposed to be a civilised discussion on a family forum.

i agree . My post was stupid but only because it was too vague and could have easily been misinterpreted which it was .

 

[akheR]

Did i use the term dog in a degraded manner?
.

It was pretty obvious that you and some fellow Indians just took this thread as an excuse for some subtle troll-feast, there's one helluva gulf between saying "it looks like a dog" and "it-looks-like-a-damn-annoying-god-which-loves-bitting-for-no-reason" and the spirit (I don't say you literally put it that way) of you post was the latter form.
Other Indians too joined the party, "oh no, it's a monkey harming the sari-wali Bharat" and stuff.

You don't need to apologize, I'm not in the position to accept any, but try to keep your hate a bit less obvious.

 

[desi_boy]

Very True. Most people are not ...but a lot of people are in both countries especially who have never met a pakistani/indian in real life.And the reason they are because they are Indian/pakistani and we have history between us ...all I was saying was reason is an Indian thing than a muslim thing..same goes for pakistanis!!!!

I have tonnes of Pakistanis friends ...and I like them as much as any other friends of mine. But if anybody hates it..its a national thing than a religious thing...that was my point.

not necessarily true... I know from my experiences it could be both or neither........what I mean is people could just hate you for your nationality or religion or for ethnicity.......I know my pervious boss absolutely hated Sikhs and he was an Indian.......I've known some Pakistani Punjabis and Pathans through high school and Uni that absolutely hated Mohajirs (according to them MQM and Mohajirs are all the same).......point being hatered comes in many different forms and shapes.......the civil thing to do is to call people on it and educate them.......During high school I used to just nod at their words no matter how uncomfortable I felt.......but now I feel that I am mature enough that when I hear such nonsense I call people on it.....

 

[desi_boy]

Sheikh Ahmed Deedat too was a Surti Gujurati.

They're the only Indian Muslim community with the ones in Kerala (the Mappilas) to have Arab genetic influences AFAIK.

FYI, I've seen some of his lectures on youtube and from what I gathered he tended to lean a bit towards Pakistan rather than India.....At least that's what I felt....

 

[IgnitedMind]

not necessarily true... I know from my experiences it could be both or neither........what I mean is people could just hate you for your nationality or religion or for ethnicity.......I know my pervious boss absolutely hated Sikhs and he was an Indian.......I've known some Pakistani Punjabis and Pathans through high school and Uni that absolutely hated Mohajirs (according to them MQM and Mohajirs are all the same).......point being hatered comes in many different forms and shapes.......the civil thing to do is to call people on it and educate them.......During high school I used to just nod at their words no matter how uncomfortable I felt.......but now I feel that I am mature enough that when I hear such nonsense I call people on it.....

True. I was talking in the context of Indian muslims hating pakistanis..obviously hating anybody is not right...but If Indian muslims are hating pakistan...they are hating because they are Indian...not because they want to be accepted by India.

Same way with Pakistani Hindus. I was talking in this context..ofcourse people can hate anybody for any reason....

 

[90MPH]

akher, in that map thread, the question was, how does it looks like?

Someone saw it as dinosaur.

Someone saw as tiger.

Me and some other saw as running dog.

What's the difference in that?

Did i use the term dog in a degraded manner?

I don't think i needed to explain myself here but you are a very respected poster and if i hurt your feelings, i apologise and i'l ask the mod to delete that post as i can't edit it now.

I respect ur views but I find that dog comment offensive and surprising. It just confirms to me the anti-pakistan is deeply ingrained in the average Indian.

 

[Green Leopard]

I know this off-topic, but what about say British Muslim Soldiers who fought in Iraq and are fighting in Afghanistan.
And what would many of your thoughts be if hypothetically these same Brit Muslim Soldiers were involved in war with Pakistan? (Especially considering many are of Pakistani origin)

Patriotism and religion can be a lethal cocktail with unknown consequences.

 

[Sufi]

I've had no problem with my Indian friends. A lot of them are Gujarati, some are Hindu and Sikh.

This India-Pakistan rivalry is way too far fetched and only stems from South Asia.

Besides, as a muslim, what comes first to you guys? To please your own country, or to please God for the sake of the Ummah?

Remember, God has told us not to pick fault in our Muslim brothers! Muslim brotherhood/Ummah is the essence of Islam, don't let the feeling of nationality strip you apart.