Why did Kapil Dev perform so poorly in England?

[as-95]

So there have been plenty of threads recently comparing all rounders from different generations so I dug into their stats a bit. Although it is common consensus that Imran Khan and Sobers are the greatest all rounders of all time, the hierarchy below them is subject to debate. The general consensus is that Botham and Hadlee are ranked below Khan and Sobers followed by Kallis and then potentially Kapil Dev.

Although I agree with this hierarchy, I don't feel it does Kapil Dev justice as he was a superb all rounder in his own right. He was just unlucky to play amongst far better all rounders which take the shine from his star!

Due to the aforementioned threads, I did some digging and learned that Kapil Dev performed extremely poorly in England. England has long been known as a fast bowlers paradise! The pitches and weather conditions make it possible for fast bowlers to wreck havoc! However, Kapil Dev was unable to capitalise whereas other fast bowlers would be licking their lips at the prospect of wrecking havoc in England! Although a career bowling average of 29.64 is unremarkable, Dev's bowling average increases to 39.18 in England! This is 7 more runs per wicket than Dev's compatriot Ishant Sharma!

Can anyone offer any insight as to why a great bowler like Kapil Dev performed so poorly in a well known hunting ground for fast bowlers?

 

[Slog]

Surprising given English conditions seem to be tailor made for his type of bowling

 

[warcry]

going by those stats, then comparing kapil dev with matthew hoggard is demeaning.. to matthew hoggard who averaged 30 in england.

 

[as-95]

Surprising given English conditions seem to be tailor made for his type of bowling

Very surprising indeed! That is why this question is so perplexing! 13 test matches is a fair sample size and a bowling average of 39.18 is too high to ignore!

 

[as-95]

going by those stats, then comparing kapil dev with matthew hoggard is demeaning.. to matthew hoggard who averaged 30 in england.

You are correct. Hoggard had far superior stats to Dev in England. Hoggard's bowling average in England is far superior to Kapil's bowling average of 39. On the other hand though, Kapil Dev has a marginally better career bowling average than Hoggard (29.64 compared to Hoggard's 30.5.) Despite little difference between Kapil and Hoggard's bowling, Kapil was also a good batsman so was far more valuable to his team than Hoggard!

Do you think you can offer any insight to Kapil's poor performance in England?

 

[RainMan_]

Kapil has always been an average bowler, especially away from home. Its not surprising that he was taken to the cleaners in England even though conditions in England were superb for fast bowling during his time.

If u look at his overall bowling stats away from home u will see that he averages 33 with the ball which is extremely poor considering the the fact that played in a bowling friendly era.


He got thrashed in NZ, SA and Pak as well.

 

[warcry]

You are correct. Hoggard had far superior stats to Dev in England. Hoggard's bowling average in England is far superior to Kapil's bowling average of 39. On the other hand though, Kapil Dev has a marginally better career bowling average than Hoggard (29.64 compared to Hoggard's 30.5.) Despite little difference between Kapil and Hoggard's bowling, Kapil was also a good batsman so was far more valuable to his team than Hoggard!

Do you think you can offer any insight to Kapil's poor performance in England?

the only way i could possibly offer any insight if i watched him bowl in england live on tv.
since that is not possible, there is not much i can say.

maybe there were drop catches, biased umpires, no support from the other bowlers, not enough runs on the board.

or maybe he couldnt handle the dukes ball and bowled short and wide filth in effort to bowl phhasst.

there could be multiple reasons why.

 

[as-95]

Kapil has always been an average bowler, especially away from home. Its not surprising that he was taken to the cleaners in England even though conditions in England were superb for fast bowling during his time.

If u look at his overall bowling stats away from home u will see that he averages 33 with the ball which is extremely poor considering the the fact that played in a bowling friendly era.


He got thrashed in NZ, SA and Pak as well.

Thanks for the insight! Having followed up on your stats, I can confirm that you are correct! Averaging 42 and 37 in NZ and South Africa respectively is very poor. These are also countries that are supportive to fast bowlers so I remain baffled why he failed so emphatically!

Being thrashed around in Pakistan is not a great surprise as the pitches don't really lend themselves towards fast bowlers so an average of 40 isn't as pathetic as it sounds... However, Kapil's record at home in India is very good and the conditions aren't too different to Pakistan. Could it be that he simply had a mental block when playing against Pakistan?

 

[Muhammad10]

Wow, those are some poor statistics! So he actually had a pretty bad record in multiple countries, can't say he performed around the world. After looking into it, it appears he failed to perform with the ball in at least FOUR countries (Bowling averages: England: 39.18, New Zealand: 42.13, Pakistan: 40.02 and South Africa: 37.37)!

Meanwhile, he also had mediocre numbers in Sri Lanka and Zimbabwe, meaning he only performed well with the ball in THREE out of NINE countries! After seeing these damning statistics, one has to objectively conclude that he was the least deserving of ATG status out of the famous quartet of all rounders, especially in relation to Test cricket, as it was a closer contest between the four in ODIs.

 

[Monsee]

Wow, those are some poor statistics! So he actually had a pretty bad record in multiple countries, can't say he performed around the world. After looking into it, it appears he failed to perform with the ball in at least FOUR countries (Bowling averages: England: 39.18, New Zealand: 42.13, Pakistan: 40.02 and South Africa: 37.37)!

Meanwhile, he also had mediocre numbers in Sri Lanka and Zimbabwe, meaning he only performed well with the ball in THREE out of NINE countries! After seeing these damning statistics, one has to objectively conclude that he was the least deserving of ATG status out of the famous quartet of all rounders, especially in relation to Test cricket, as it was a closer contest between the four in ODIs.

But But But he was an out of this world batsman with truly amazing SR for that era

Seriously, this puts in to perspective all the whinning going on (here on PP for ages) about some of Pak batsmen like Inzi and Miandad having average records in 2 countries out of all they played in...let's see how the hypocrisy ensues from here onwards since their greatest ever Phaast Bowler is deemed null and void by his record in 6 out of 9 countries he played in!!!

 

[cricketindiafan]

Kapil has always been an average bowler, especially away from home. Its not surprising that he was taken to the cleaners in England even though conditions in England were superb for fast bowling during his time.

If u look at his overall bowling stats away from home u will see that he averages 33 with the ball which is extremely poor considering the the fact that played in a bowling friendly era.


He got thrashed in NZ, SA and Pak as well.

He won an away series in England with those stats. When was the last time your team played a test in England?

On topic, he did struggle in England. Was outbowled by Chetan Sharma and Binny on the 86 tour where he led us to a series win. Typical pattern of our England tours was bowler friendly pitches in first test, and flatties for the other two tests.

Maybe, he was also preserving his energy for the WI and Aus tour

 

[Corridor of Uncertainty]

Fail to understand how putting Kapil down serves any purpose more than hyping him up.

He was an awesome player, one of the best ever and stats are not everything.

 

[RainMan_]

Thanks for the insight! Having followed up on your stats, I can confirm that you are correct! Averaging 42 and 37 in NZ and South Africa respectively is very poor. These are also countries that are supportive to fast bowlers so I remain baffled why he failed so emphatically!

Being thrashed around in Pakistan is not a great surprise as the pitches don't really lend themselves towards fast bowlers so an average of 40 isn't as pathetic as it sounds... However, Kapil's record at home in India is very good and the conditions aren't too different to Pakistan. Could it be that he simply had a mental block when playing against Pakistan?

I don't think its only the mental block. I think It's the combination of his lack of skill, quality and temperament.

@ Other posters, pls don't get me wrong. He was a decent bowler in test. But u can't just ignore the fact that having a bowling average of 40 on lively wickets of Eng, SA and NZ and that too in the bowling friendly era of 80s certainly doesn't look good, does it?

Just imagine what would've happened to his bowling figure if he had to bowl on today's flat wickets. As I said many times, he was a decent bowler who could bat a bit. Nothing more than that. Since this thread is only about bowling I won't even mention how was he asca batsman. If anyone look at his overall batting stat he'll get a pretty good idea about his batting capability anyway.

 

[Monsee]

Fail to understand how putting Kapil down serves any purpose more than hyping him up.

He was an awesome player, one of the best ever and stats are not everything.

Yep, stats are only everything when putting down Pak players especially batsmen in Australia and SA!

One rule for India and another for rest of them

 

[Monsee]

I don't think its only the mental block. I think It's the combination of his lack of skill, quality and temperament.

@ Other posters, pls don't get me wrong. He was a decent bowler in test. But u can't just ignore the fact that having a bowling average of 40 on lively wickets of Eng, SA and NZ and that too in the bowling friendly era of 80s certainly doesn't look good, does it?

Just imagine what would've happened to his bowling figure if he had to bowl on today's flat wickets. As I said many times, he was a decent bowler who could bat a bit. Nothing more than that. Since this thread is only about bowling I won't even mention how was he asca batsman. If anyone look at his overall batting stat he'll get a pretty good idea about his batting capability anyway.

I personally respect him quite a bit for being an excellent medium pacer especially his out swinger, one of the best in his era for that alone. But the way some Indians hype his bowling and then refuse to accept that Imran was much faster, awesome, skilled, and dangerous as a bowler, is what makes you wonder if this envy and jealousy or what!

 

[Corridor of Uncertainty]

Yep, stats are only everything when putting down Pak players especially batsmen in Australia and SA!

One rule for India and another for rest of them

No, same rule. I didn't think the other threads were right either.

 

[Monsee]

^^^Seen many like you, only to turn in to the 'Others' in a few months; thosebeen here a long time can confirm this phenomenon as well!

 

[barah_admi]

A bowling average of almost 40 is atrocious for a bowler who led the pack. What was his batting like?

 

[Robert]

So there have been plenty of threads recently comparing all rounders from different generations so I dug into their stats a bit. Although it is common consensus that Imran Khan and Sobers are the greatest all rounders of all time, the hierarchy below them is subject to debate. The general consensus is that Botham and Hadlee are ranked below Khan and Sobers followed by Kallis and then potentially Kapil Dev.

England has long been known as a fast bowlers paradise!

Can anyone offer any insight as to why a great bowler like Kapil Dev performed so poorly in a well known hunting ground for fast bowlers?

Not many England tracks have been good for fast bowling in the last thirty years as they are mosttly slow seamers. For example I recall England going in with Willis, Dilley and Cowans at Headingley against NZ, all of whom were quicker than Hadlee and the Kiwis, yet NZ won. Hadlee commented that the England quicks were too quick to exploit the conditions.

But one would expect FM swingers like Kapil to do very well. I have no clue why not, unless the England batters were just very used to his style.

 

[jeetu]

Kapil Dev in England
Series Breakdown
[table=width: 500, class: grid, align: center]
[tr][td]Series [/td][td]Mat [/td][td]Runs [/td][td]Bat Av [/td][td]100 [/td][td]Wkts [/td][td]Bowl Av [/td][td]5W [/td][td]Winner [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]1979 [/td][td]4 [/td][td]45 [/td][td]7.5 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]16 [/td][td]30.93 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]England [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]1982 [/td][td]3 [/td][td]292 [/td][td]73 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]10 [/td][td]43.9 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]England [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]1986 [/td][td]3 [/td][td]81 [/td][td]20.25 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]10 [/td][td]30.6 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]India [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]1990 [/td][td]3 [/td][td]220 [/td][td]55 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]7 [/td][td]63.57 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]England [/td][/tr]
[/table]

 

[Bilal7]

Fail to understand how putting Kapil down serves any purpose more than hyping him up.

He was an awesome player, one of the best ever and stats are not everything.

Except he wasn't an "awesome player", like his performances reveal. He was certainly a good player but nothing more than that.

 

[Bilal7]

A batting average of 26 away from home and a bowling average of 38 and SR of 80+ outside of India, Australia and West Indies. Yes, an "awesome player" for sure.

However, there is no denying that he was excellent with the ball in Australia and West Indies. That is why he is a good player overall. I suggest people stop hyping him into something he is not because I don't enjoy the guy being exposed like this.

 

[Junaids]

Thanks for the insight! Having followed up on your stats, I can confirm that you are correct! Averaging 42 and 37 in NZ and South Africa respectively is very poor. These are also countries that are supportive to fast bowlers so I remain baffled why he failed so emphatically!

Being thrashed around in Pakistan is not a great surprise as the pitches don't really lend themselves towards fast bowlers so an average of 40 isn't as pathetic as it sounds... However, Kapil's record at home in India is very good and the conditions aren't too different to Pakistan. Could it be that he simply had a mental block when playing against Pakistan?

The answer is really rather simple.

Kapil Dev was a bowler who was naturally a conventional outswing bowler in the 130-135K pace range, and he was very good at that.

But that also meant that he was India's fastest ever bowler (until little Chetan Sharma came along in the mid-1980's).

In some places (notably Australia and the West Indies) Kapil Dev made a deliberate effort to bowl as fast as he could - sometimes nudging the 140K mark, or close to it - and he did well as a consequence. He relied less upon movement than he did on pace, line and length, and unlike most Indian and Pakistani bowlers when he was in Australia he got his length right. (Which Mohammad Amir has repeatedly got wrong).

There was an assumption that Kapil Dev's medium-fast away-swing would work well in England and New Zealand, and that was a bad misreading of the conditions. Those two countries actually differ significantly.

In England it is more about seam off the wicket than swing in the air.

Kapil Dev really had no seam skills at all, and he swung the ball too early, rather than having the lethal late awayswing of Ian Botham (1977-1980) or Jimmy Anderson or even Jacques Kallis.

Similarly, in New Zealand as the current Wellington Test shows, it's about seam and swing on Day 1, but then usually conditions become like Australia. Kapil Dev just got it wrong.

He was a really good bowler.

I don't know why Indians get upset when I compare him to a Poor Man's Heath Streak with the ball - it's exactly what he was. They were quite similar, as was Jacques Kallis who was a bit faster, but didn't get to use the new ball.

Kapil Dev:
434 wickets in 131 Tests
Average 29.64. Strike Rate 63.9

Heath Streak:
216 wickets in 63 Tests
Average 28.14, Strike Rate 62.7

Jacques Kallis:
292 wickets in 166 Tests
Average 32.65, Strike Rate 69.2

Kapil Dev would be the world's greatest player in this current weak era.

As I often say, in an era of 4 Great All-Rounders he was the Fifth Best All-Rounder. (In case you're wondering, Mike Procter until 1980, Clive Rice from 1980).

Unfortunately it was the Jubilee Test at Bombay in 1980 which sealed Kapil Dev's reputation as the Fifth Best Out Of Four.

He and Ian Botham were both at their peak and both performed to the absolute best of their ability. And this is what happened.

India First Innings
Kapil Dev 0
Ian Botham 22.5-7-58-6

England First Innings
Ian Botham 114
Kapil Dev 29-8-64-3

India Second Innings
Kapil Dev 45 not out
Ian Botham 26-7-48-7

England Second Innings
Kapil Dev 8-2-21-0
Ian Botham did not bat.

Same pitch, same conditions, same match.

And both of them batting and bowling as well as they could.

 

[Junaids]

Just to emphasise those Jubilee Test comparisons:

Ian Botham took 13 wickets for 106 runs in 48.5 overs.

Kapil Dev took 3 wickets for 85 runs in 37 overs on the same pitch.

 

[Swashbuckler]

Just to emphasise those Jubilee Test comparisons:

Ian Botham took 13 wickets for 106 runs in 48.5 overs.

Kapil Dev took 3 wickets for 85 runs in 37 overs on the same pitch.

Jubilee test was just 1 match. Basing everything on one match is rubbish. I can prove that a random journeyman>Lara/Warne/Sachin/Kallis/Younis if allowed to pick one match.

Are you ready to accept that Pandya>Stokes based on the Trent Bridge test earlier this year or even better Agarkar>Gillespie based on Adelaide 2003?

 

[as-95]

Wow, those are some poor statistics! So he actually had a pretty bad record in multiple countries, can't say he performed around the world. After looking into it, it appears he failed to perform with the ball in at least FOUR countries (Bowling averages: England: 39.18, New Zealand: 42.13, Pakistan: 40.02 and South Africa: 37.37)!

Meanwhile, he also had mediocre numbers in Sri Lanka and Zimbabwe, meaning he only performed well with the ball in THREE out of NINE countries! After seeing these damning statistics, one has to objectively conclude that he was the least deserving of ATG status out of the famous quartet of all rounders, especially in relation to Test cricket, as it was a closer contest between the four in ODIs.

This is a fair point... i would certainly agree that he is the least deserving of ATG status from the Great quartet including Imran, Botham and Hadlee...

Do you think it is possible to argue that he was not an ATG at all and simply an Indian Great of the game or would that be unfair on Kapil (despite these damning stats)?

 

[as-95]

But But But he was an out of this world batsman with truly amazing SR for that era

Seriously, this puts in to perspective all the whinning going on (here on PP for ages) about some of Pak batsmen like Inzi and Miandad having average records in 2 countries out of all they played in...let's see how the hypocrisy ensues from here onwards since their greatest ever Phaast Bowler is deemed null and void by his record in 6 out of 9 countries he played in!!!

You make a fair point... Someone who is arguably an ATG of the game cannot perform so poorly in 6 out of 9 countries in the world. Im not worried about all of his series losses abroad as its very difficult to win an away Test series against a good side. My qualm with Kapil is his extremely poor performance.

I ask you the same question that i pitched to the previous poster; would you consider Kapil as an ATG of the game or simply an Indian Great?

 

[Robert]

Kapil is an ATG. Eight test hundreds in a tough era on top of 430+ wickets, at one time the world record. Not as good a batter as Botham but a better bowler, not as good a bowler as Hadlee and Imran but a better batter.

 

[as-95]

I don't think its only the mental block. I think It's the combination of his lack of skill, quality and temperament.

@ Other posters, pls don't get me wrong. He was a decent bowler in test. But u can't just ignore the fact that having a bowling average of 40 on lively wickets of Eng, SA and NZ and that too in the bowling friendly era of 80s certainly doesn't look good, does it?

Just imagine what would've happened to his bowling figure if he had to bowl on today's flat wickets. As I said many times, he was a decent bowler who could bat a bit. Nothing more than that. Since this thread is only about bowling I won't even mention how was he asca batsman. If anyone look at his overall batting stat he'll get a pretty good idea about his batting capability anyway.

You are correct. Cricket today is a batsman's game and only the best bowlers survive. On the shortened boundaries and flat pitches, Kapil's stats would probably plummet even more!

The more we debate this, the more I question whether Kapil scrapes into the ATG All rounders list or is simply an Indian Great of the game!

 

[Bhaijaan]

Kapil is an ATG. Eight test hundreds in a tough era on top of 430+ wickets, at one time the world record. Not as good a batter as Botham but a better bowler, not as good a bowler as Hadlee and Imran but a better batter.

Robert has nailed it.

There could not have been a more simpler yet most accurate conclusion of this whole chaos on PP.

Only thing your Bhaijaan might want to as din it is that Kapil Dev did all of that while taking the entire burden of India’s bowling as well as lower order battin in his lonely shoulders. In that sense he was much much bigger player than what his already ATG records suggest. A true war horse!

 

[as-95]

Kapil is an ATG. Eight test hundreds in a tough era on top of 430+ wickets, at one time the world record. Not as good a batter as Botham but a better bowler, not as good a bowler as Hadlee and Imran but a better batter.

Shaun Pollock also has over 400 wickets. Only 13 less than Kapil and in a whopping 23 less Test Matches!!! Pollock also has a FAR superior bowling average and a better strike rate... He also has a superior batting average to Kapil Dev despite having less centuries. Does this mean you also classify Shaun Pollock as an ATG or is he simply a South African Great? Stats aren't everything but going by stats alone, Shaun Pollock looks a superior all rounder to Kapil Dev in all aspects!

 

[Romali_rotti]

I personally respect him quite a bit for being an excellent medium pacer especially his out swinger, one of the best in his era for that alone. But the way some Indians hype his bowling and then refuse to accept that Imran was much faster, awesome, skilled, and dangerous as a bowler, is what makes you wonder if this envy and jealousy or what!

Why in the world would it be envy when all or if not most Indian fans would Admit Imran is the better overall player, it is just pure fact.. Imran is faster and a better overall bowler than DEV, no one would argue this, however we need to cool you down at times when you say things like Imran was a 150 ks bowler etc which is simply not true and the only stat which backs up his quickest speed is a timed speed of 139ks at the speed competition in Aus.....

 

[Romali_rotti]

Shaun Pollock also has over 400 wickets. Only 13 less than Kapil and in a whopping 23 less Test Matches!!! Pollock also has a FAR superior bowling average and a better strike rate... He also has a superior batting average to Kapil Dev despite having less centuries. Does this mean you also classify Shaun Pollock as an ATG or is he simply a South African Great? Stats aren't everything but going by stats alone, Shaun Pollock looks a superior all rounder to Kapil Dev in all aspects!

Not really and I must say a silly comparison. Pollock bowled mostly on the hard bouncy wickets with Donald, had players such as Kallis, Ntini etc in the lineup. Dev had zero support and played mostly on flat pancakes of the sub continent with Madan Lals and ROger Binnys lol...

 

[Bhaijaan]

Shaun Pollock also has over 400 wickets. Only 13 less than Kapil and in a whopping 23 less Test Matches!!! Pollock also has a FAR superior bowling average and a better strike rate... He also has a superior batting average to Kapil Dev despite having less centuries. Does this mean you also classify Shaun Pollock as an ATG or is he simply a South African Great? Stats aren't everything but going by stats alone, Shaun Pollock looks a superior all rounder to Kapil Dev in all aspects!

FYI Shaun Pollock is a legend and a certified ATG. In a world without GlennMcgrath he was probably the best test bowler in his generation.

Taking his captaincy and batting record into account he is right up there among the greatest.

Only thing that goes against popular opinion is him not being too vocal/brash like McGrath/Donald.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Shaun Pollock also has over 400 wickets. Only 13 less than Kapil and in a whopping 23 less Test Matches!!! Pollock also has a FAR superior bowling average and a better strike rate... He also has a superior batting average to Kapil Dev despite having less centuries. Does this mean you also classify Shaun Pollock as an ATG or is he simply a South African Great? Stats aren't everything but going by stats alone, Shaun Pollock looks a superior all rounder to Kapil Dev in all aspects!

Pollock is ATG bhai.

Of course a much better bowler than Dev.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Shaun Pollock also has over 400 wickets. Only 13 less than Kapil and in a whopping 23 less Test Matches!!! Pollock also has a FAR superior bowling average and a better strike rate... He also has a superior batting average to Kapil Dev despite having less centuries. Does this mean you also classify Shaun Pollock as an ATG or is he simply a South African Great? Stats aren't everything but going by stats alone, Shaun Pollock looks a superior all rounder to Kapil Dev in all aspects!

Also Robert is talking about Kapil being an ATG AR which is true.

ATG bowler is a different thing altogether.

 

[as-95]

Not really and I must say a silly comparison. Pollock bowled mostly on the hard bouncy wickets with Donald, had players such as Kallis, Ntini etc in the lineup. Dev had zero support and played mostly on flat pancakes of the sub continent with Madan Lals and ROger Binnys lol...

FYI Shaun Pollock is a legend and a certified ATG. In a world without GlennMcgrath he was probably the best test bowler in his generation.

Taking his captaincy and batting record into account he is right up there among the greatest.

Only thing that goes against popular opinion is him not being too vocal/brash like McGrath/Donald.

Pollock is ATG bhai.

Of course a much better bowler than Dev.

Interesting to see differing views on Pollock... Personally, I always classified Pollock as a South African Great as opposed to an ATG but i'm happy to see the differing viewpoints... He is rarely mentioned when the ATG All rounders are discussed. Would you argue that he is a superior all rounder to Kapil Dev? He is a far superior bowler to Kapil and his batting is decent too. Who would you prefer in your side?

 

[as-95]

Also Robert is talking about Kapil being an ATG AR which is true.

ATG bowler is a different thing altogether.

If Shaun Pollock is an All Time great bowler, he must be an ATG All rounder too in the same way that Richard Hadlee is an ATG bowler but also an all rounder too. Both were extremely skilled bowlers who were decent batsmen too...

Do you think Pollock should get more recognition in the All time All rounder lists? Does he deserve to ranked better than Kapil Dev?

 

[as-95]

A batting average of 26 away from home and a bowling average of 38 and SR of 80+ outside of India, Australia and West Indies. Yes, an "awesome player" for sure.

However, there is no denying that he was excellent with the ball in Australia and West Indies. That is why he is a good player overall. I suggest people stop hyping him into something he is not because I don't enjoy the guy being exposed like this.

Thanks for the insight... It's interesting to see that you classify Kapil as simply a "good" player and believe he shouldn't be hyped into anything more... How would you rank Kapil amongst other all rounders? Does he deserve to be classified as an ATG or simply an Indian Great?

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

If Shaun Pollock is an All Time great bowler, he must be an ATG All rounder too in the same way that Richard Hadlee is an ATG bowler but also an all rounder too. Both were extremely skilled bowlers who were decent batsmen too...

Do you think Pollock should get more recognition in the All time All rounder lists? Does he deserve to ranked better than Kapil Dev?

Pollock is an ATG bowler plus AR.

That too in both formats unlike the Fab 4 AR of the 80s.

He is criminally under-rated.

 

[Robert]

Shaun Pollock also has over 400 wickets. Only 13 less than Kapil and in a whopping 23 less Test Matches!!! Pollock also has a FAR superior bowling average and a better strike rate... He also has a superior batting average to Kapil Dev despite having less centuries. Does this mean you also classify Shaun Pollock as an ATG or is he simply a South African Great? Stats aren't everything but going by stats alone, Shaun Pollock looks a superior all rounder to Kapil Dev in all aspects!

Pollock’s average is artificially inflated by 39 not outs in 156 innings.

Also he had Donald at the other end and played half his career on sporting pitches. Kapil had nobody very good to help him and bowled half the time on unresponsive pitches.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Just to emphasise those Jubilee Test comparisons:

Ian Botham took 13 wickets for 106 runs in 48.5 overs.

Kapil Dev took 3 wickets for 85 runs in 37 overs on the same pitch.

All that matters is what both of the guys you mentioned have done vs the best.. That seals legacies not some Jubilee test match lol, you are not the top dawg till you show up against the best in the business...

 

[RainMan_]

Thanks for the insight... It's interesting to see that you classify Kapil as simply a "good" player and believe he shouldn't be hyped into anything more... How would you rank Kapil amongst other all rounders? Does he deserve to be classified as an ATG or simply an Indian Great?

It's just not him. Most is the knowledgeable cricket fans who understand cricket consider him as someone who's couple of leagues below other great allrounder like Imran, kallis, sobbers, Miller etc.

It's the nostalgic Indians as well as their clueless media that try to portray him as something which he is not. At least his mediocore stats in tests almost everywhere apart from WI and Aus suggests that.

Also don't forget the fact that he failed to score a single double hundred in his entire career. Just didn't have the technique to survive in test cricket.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Interesting to see differing views on Pollock... Personally, I always classified Pollock as a South African Great as opposed to an ATG but i'm happy to see the differing viewpoints... He is rarely mentioned when the ATG All rounders are discussed. Would you argue that he is a superior all rounder to Kapil Dev? He is a far superior bowler to Kapil and his batting is decent too. Who would you prefer in your side?

To be honest Imran also doesnt get mentioned much in discussion on best of the best fast bowlers. He has all the stats and performances yet Marshall, Lillee, McGrath steal the spotlight mostly. Even Wasim gets more mentioning.

Thats how things are strangely and unfairly for many top players.

Imran's test aura often gets him a lot selected on priority in ODIs when Kapil's always been better and more suited to that format.

This is why i am not a big fan of ex players ratings. They are too biased and based on popular opinion mostly.

 

[as-95]

The answer is really rather simple.

Kapil Dev was a bowler who was naturally a conventional outswing bowler in the 130-135K pace range, and he was very good at that.

But that also meant that he was India's fastest ever bowler (until little Chetan Sharma came along in the mid-1980's).

In some places (notably Australia and the West Indies) Kapil Dev made a deliberate effort to bowl as fast as he could - sometimes nudging the 140K mark, or close to it - and he did well as a consequence. He relied less upon movement than he did on pace, line and length, and unlike most Indian and Pakistani bowlers when he was in Australia he got his length right. (Which Mohammad Amir has repeatedly got wrong).

There was an assumption that Kapil Dev's medium-fast away-swing would work well in England and New Zealand, and that was a bad misreading of the conditions. Those two countries actually differ significantly.

In England it is more about seam off the wicket than swing in the air.

Kapil Dev really had no seam skills at all, and he swung the ball too early, rather than having the lethal late awayswing of Ian Botham (1977-1980) or Jimmy Anderson or even Jacques Kallis.

Similarly, in New Zealand as the current Wellington Test shows, it's about seam and swing on Day 1, but then usually conditions become like Australia. Kapil Dev just got it wrong.

He was a really good bowler.

I don't know why Indians get upset when I compare him to a Poor Man's Heath Streak with the ball - it's exactly what he was. They were quite similar, as was Jacques Kallis who was a bit faster, but didn't get to use the new ball.

Kapil Dev:
434 wickets in 131 Tests
Average 29.64. Strike Rate 63.9

Heath Streak:
216 wickets in 63 Tests
Average 28.14, Strike Rate 62.7

Jacques Kallis:
292 wickets in 166 Tests
Average 32.65, Strike Rate 69.2

Kapil Dev would be the world's greatest player in this current weak era.

As I often say, in an era of 4 Great All-Rounders he was the Fifth Best All-Rounder. (In case you're wondering, Mike Procter until 1980, Clive Rice from 1980).

Unfortunately it was the Jubilee Test at Bombay in 1980 which sealed Kapil Dev's reputation as the Fifth Best Out Of Four.

He and Ian Botham were both at their peak and both performed to the absolute best of their ability. And this is what happened.

India First Innings
Kapil Dev 0
Ian Botham 22.5-7-58-6

England First Innings
Ian Botham 114
Kapil Dev 29-8-64-3

India Second Innings
Kapil Dev 45 not out
Ian Botham 26-7-48-7

England Second Innings
Kapil Dev 8-2-21-0
Ian Botham did not bat.

Same pitch, same conditions, same match.

And both of them batting and bowling as well as they could.

Some very interesting points. I appreciate the insight! It's a shame that Procter and Clive Rice were denied International Cricket due to South Africa's isolation. Otherwise we would be able to really test your assertion that they were better all rounders than Kapil Dev at the time!

Your point regarding Heath Streak is also interesting. If Heath Streak played for England or a more fashionable country, he would be more highly rated. He would have played more Test matches and also gained more exposure so I don't think that Kapil being called a poor man's Heath Streak is a sleight by any stretch!!

Its obvious that Kapil Dev is inferior to Imran, Sobers, Botham and Hadlee. How would you rate Kapil alongside Jacques Kallis, Shaun Pollock and Freddie Flintoff?

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Pollock’s average is artificially inflated by 39 not outs in 156 innings.

Also he had Donald at the other end and played half his career on sporting pitches. Kapil had nobody very good to help him and bowled half the time on unresponsive pitches.

What's Pollock's record in Asia?

Can someone post?

Both test and ODIs.

 

[Bhaijaan]

It's just not him. Most is the knowledgeable cricket fans who understand cricket consider him as someone who's couple of leagues below other great allrounder like Imran, kallis, sobbers, Miller etc. .

Which knowledgeable fans are you talking about? Cricket as a game doesn't get discussed to a great extent online because of the huge cultural disconnect among fans from Asian/SENA countries. Few mediums that allow some discussions are mostly filled with hate comments anyway with hardly ang any credible comments.

As far as PP is concerned as much as we love it as among the best cricket forums out there, representation of many countries is extremely limited here. Many major nations are represented mostly by 1-2 blokes here. Thats hardly a reflection of overall opinions from such nations.

So i really dont know which knowledgeable cricket discussion populations you have tapped into to draw conclusions that say Kapil's a nobody. You are living in a bubble if you consider all those who disagree with you on cricketing matters online as not part of the so called knowledge group.

 

[Robert]

It's just not him. Most is the knowledgeable cricket fans who understand cricket consider him as someone who's couple of leagues below other great allrounder like Imran, kallis, sobbers, Miller etc.

It's the nostalgic Indians as well as their clueless media that try to portray him as something which he is not. At least his mediocore stats in tests almost everywhere apart from WI and Aus suggests that.

Also don't forget the fact that he failed to score a single double hundred in his entire career. Just didn't have the technique to survive in test cricket.

I don’t consider him a couple of leagues below those guys. What’s so special about 200s? Botham got one, but Imran and Hadlee were nowhere near that mark. I don’t think Miller got one either. If Kapil could not survive in tests how did he get eight centuries, more than Imran?

My abiding memory of Kapil was the four consecutive sixes off Hemings to avoid the follow-on. Nobody else would have done that. Richards or Botham would have bashed the three sixes and then pinched the strike, but Kapil went for that fourth six.

What could anyone have done? That was Kapil for you. The man batted with a fearlessness and a joy that I have not seen since. Had he played with a bit more regard for his average like Imran, he would have doubled his test century haul.

 

[as-95]

A bowling average of almost 40 is atrocious for a bowler who led the pack. What was his batting like?

He had a batting average of 31 which went down to 26 away from home. Make of it what you will but these are not stats worthy of an ATG.

Hence my question. Is Kapil simply an Indian Great or does he scrape into the ATG All rounder list by the skin of his teeth?

 

[as-95]

It's just not him. Most is the knowledgeable cricket fans who understand cricket consider him as someone who's couple of leagues below other great allrounder like Imran, kallis, sobbers, Miller etc.

It's the nostalgic Indians as well as their clueless media that try to portray him as something which he is not. At least his mediocore stats in tests almost everywhere apart from WI and Aus suggests that.

Also don't forget the fact that he failed to score a single double hundred in his entire career. Just didn't have the technique to survive in test cricket.

I don't think scoring a double hundred is a fair barometer on Kapil's ability as a batsman. The already mediocre batting average of 31 dropping to 26 away from home is a fairer assessment than simply stating he doesn't have a double century!

However, you are probably on the money regarding media portrayal elevating his stature when if you actually bother to dig into his stats, he is nothing special at all. His bowling average in tailor made conditions is inexcusable!

Maybe Kapil belongs in the tier below the ATG all rounders amongst the likes of Flintoff, Vettori, Shakib since he doesn't cut it when compared to Hadlee, Botham, Kallis. Imran/ Sobers are in another league amongst themselves!

 

[barah_admi]

He had a batting average of 31 which went down to 26 away from home. Make of it what you will but these are not stats worthy of an ATG.

Hence my question. Is Kapil simply an Indian Great or does he scrape into the ATG All rounder list by the skin of his teeth?

I meant, what was his batting average specifically in England?

As for his overall number,s they are still very good, just not upper tier great alongside Khan and Sobers, or second tier alongside Botham and Kallis. BUT beyond that, yes Dev fits in very well.

However, it is not just numbers but performances and Dev was crucial in India winning their first WC and being their best all format player for a decade.

Not upper tier but still great.

 

[jeetu]

What's Pollock's record in Asia?

Can someone post?

Both test and ODIs.

[table=width: 500, class: grid, align: center]
[tr][td] Tests [/td][td]Mat [/td][td]Runs [/td][td]Bat Av [/td][td]100 [/td][td]Wkts [/td][td]Bowl Av [/td][td]5W [/td][td]Ave Diff [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Overall [/td][td]108 [/td][td]3781 [/td][td]32.31 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]421 [/td][td]23.11 [/td][td]16 [/td][td]9.19 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]In Asia [/td][td]17 [/td][td]550 [/td][td]25 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]60 [/td][td]23.18 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]1.81 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]ODI [/td][td]Mat [/td][td]Runs [/td][td]Bat Av [/td][td]100 [/td][td]Wkts [/td][td]Bowl Av [/td][td]5W [/td][td]Ave Diff [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Overall [/td][td]303 [/td][td]3519 [/td][td]26.45 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]393 [/td][td]24.5 [/td][td]5 [/td][td]1.95 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]In Asia [/td][td]30 [/td][td]491 [/td][td]28.88 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]44 [/td][td]24.5 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]4.38 [/td][/tr]
[/table]

 

[as-95]

[table=width: 500, class: grid, align: center]
[tr][td] Tests [/td][td]Mat [/td][td]Runs [/td][td]Bat Av [/td][td]100 [/td][td]Wkts [/td][td]Bowl Av [/td][td]5W [/td][td]Ave Diff [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Overall [/td][td]108 [/td][td]3781 [/td][td]32.31 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]421 [/td][td]23.11 [/td][td]16 [/td][td]9.19 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]In Asia [/td][td]17 [/td][td]550 [/td][td]25 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]60 [/td][td]23.18 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]1.81 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]ODI [/td][td]Mat [/td][td]Runs [/td][td]Bat Av [/td][td]100 [/td][td]Wkts [/td][td]Bowl Av [/td][td]5W [/td][td]Ave Diff [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Overall [/td][td]303 [/td][td]3519 [/td][td]26.45 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]393 [/td][td]24.5 [/td][td]5 [/td][td]1.95 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]In Asia [/td][td]30 [/td][td]491 [/td][td]28.88 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]44 [/td][td]24.5 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]4.38 [/td][/tr]
[/table]

These are some solid numbers for a bowling all rounder in foreign conditions. This thread has really opened my eyes regarding Pollocks capabilities as a Bowling all Rounder... His bowling average doesn't change in Asia and puts to bed the theory that Pollock was only good on green mambas in South Africa.

Compared to Kapil Dev failing on the majority of his tours abroad, Pollock looks the far more adabtable and flexible all rounder!!!

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

[table=width: 500, class: grid, align: center]
[tr][td] Tests [/td][td]Mat [/td][td]Runs [/td][td]Bat Av [/td][td]100 [/td][td]Wkts [/td][td]Bowl Av [/td][td]5W [/td][td]Ave Diff [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Overall [/td][td]108 [/td][td]3781 [/td][td]32.31 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]421 [/td][td]23.11 [/td][td]16 [/td][td]9.19 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]In Asia [/td][td]17 [/td][td]550 [/td][td]25 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]60 [/td][td]23.18 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]1.81 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]ODI [/td][td]Mat [/td][td]Runs [/td][td]Bat Av [/td][td]100 [/td][td]Wkts [/td][td]Bowl Av [/td][td]5W [/td][td]Ave Diff [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Overall [/td][td]303 [/td][td]3519 [/td][td]26.45 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]393 [/td][td]24.5 [/td][td]5 [/td][td]1.95 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]In Asia [/td][td]30 [/td][td]491 [/td][td]28.88 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]44 [/td][td]24.5 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]4.38 [/td][/tr]
[/table]

Thanks.

There you go.

That should clear up any doubts. [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION]

Plus these stats include the period where he was over the hill which hurt his stats a bit i think.

 

[Romali_rotti]

I don’t consider him a couple of leagues below those guys. What’s so special about 200s? Botham got one, but Imran and Hadlee were nowhere near that mark. I don’t think Miller got one either. If Kapil could not survive in tests how did he get eight centuries, more than Imran?

My abiding memory of Kapil was the four consecutive sixes off Hemings to avoid the follow-on. Nobody else would have done that. Richards or Botham would have bashed the three sixes and then pinched the strike, but Kapil went for that fourth six.

What could anyone have done? That was Kapil for you. The man batted with a fearlessness and a joy that I have not seen since. Had he played with a bit more regard for his average like Imran, he would have doubled his test century haul.

Rob,

You are a huge Dev fan it seems, I have noticed time and time again, even when I put Botham down for his poor performance vs WI, you have came out and rated Dev ahead as a bowler. I can appreciate you as a poster, considering you are an ENG fan and how you at times rate DEV ahead of Botham shows you have zero bias and you don't look through the prism of fan boyism....

Now lets get your honest opinion:

Who would rate as the best bat out of the 4 and why:

1) DEV
2) Imran
3) Botham
5) Hadlee

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

I don’t consider him a couple of leagues below those guys. What’s so special about 200s? Botham got one, but Imran and Hadlee were nowhere near that mark. I don’t think Miller got one either. If Kapil could not survive in tests how did he get eight centuries, more than Imran?

My abiding memory of Kapil was the four consecutive sixes off Hemings to avoid the follow-on. Nobody else would have done that. Richards or Botham would have bashed the three sixes and then pinched the strike, but Kapil went for that fourth six.

What could anyone have done? That was Kapil for you. The man batted with a fearlessness and a joy that I have not seen since. Had he played with a bit more regard for his average like Imran, he would have doubled his test century haul.

Kapil in this era would have been a superstar really.

He bashed peak Donald and scored a test century with a broken arm or something in the early 90s.

Him and Viv would have been a riot in the batting friendly era.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Kapil in this era would have been a superstar really.

He bashed peak Donald and scored a test century with a broken arm or something in the early 90s.

Him and Viv would have been a riot in the batting friendly era.

The 100 Dev scored in SA vs Donald and co was a treat, I saw that innings to TV, rest of the Indian batting just folded like a pack of cards.. But I don't recall Dev having an arm injury though in that innings..

 

[Junaids]

Some very interesting points. I appreciate the insight! It's a shame that Procter and Clive Rice were denied International Cricket due to South Africa's isolation. Otherwise we would be able to really test your assertion that they were better all rounders than Kapil Dev at the time!

Your point regarding Heath Streak is also interesting. If Heath Streak played for England or a more fashionable country, he would be more highly rated. He would have played more Test matches and also gained more exposure so I don't think that Kapil being called a poor man's Heath Streak is a sleight by any stretch!!

Its obvious that Kapil Dev is inferior to Imran, Sobers, Botham and Hadlee. How would you rate Kapil alongside Jacques Kallis, Shaun Pollock and Freddie Flintoff?

I think that there are three categories of pace bowling all-rounder.

1. Batsmen who can bowl
Garry Sobers batted 10/10, bowled 5/10
Jacques Kallis batted 9/10, bowled 5/10
Clive Rice batted 8/10, bowled 6/10

(Grading compared to Specialist bowlers and batters)

2. Genuine balanced all-rounders
Imran Khan batted 7/10, bowled 9/10
Kapil Dev batted 7/10, bowled 7/10
Ian Botham batted 7/10, bowled 8/10
Mike Procter batted 7/10, bowled 9/10
Andrew Flintoff batted 7/10, bowled 7/10

3. Bowlers who could bat
Shaun Pollock batted 6/10, bowled 9/10
Richard Hadlee batted 5/10, bowled 9/10
Wasim Akram batted 4/10, bowled 9/10
Mitchell Johnson batted 4/10, bowled 8/10

 

[as-95]

I meant, what was his batting average specifically in England?

As for his overall number,s they are still very good, just not upper tier great alongside Khan and Sobers, or second tier alongside Botham and Kallis. BUT beyond that, yes Dev fits in very well.

However, it is not just numbers but performances and Dev was crucial in India winning their first WC and being their best all format player for a decade.

Not upper tier but still great.

An average of 35. This is higher than Kapil's career average of 31 so he batted slightly better. However, the pathetic bowling average of 39 tarnishes his all round performance!

This is a fair assessment. I would agree that Kapil is a third tier all rounder in the tier below Kallis and Botham. As such he is a great all rounder and probably an Indian cricketing great as opposed to an ATG!

 

[Robert]

Rob,

You are a huge Dev fan it seems, I have noticed time and time again, even when I put Botham down for his poor performance vs WI, you have came out and rated Dev ahead as a bowler. I can appreciate you as a poster, considering you are an ENG fan and how you at times rate DEV ahead of Botham shows you have zero bias and you don't look through the prism of fan boyism....

Now lets get your honest opinion:

Who would rate as the best bat out of the 4 and why:

1) DEV
2) Imran
3) Botham
5) Hadlee

I’m not a particular Kapil fan to be truthful, but there seems a lot of historic revisionism around here these days and the bloke was really good for a long time and doesn’t get the credit he deserves.

As for your list where is #4?

I would say that Botham is the best bat overall - but the dent in his figures against WI counts against him. And his figures drop off spectacularly in his last few years. He was so annoying because you knew he could be another Sobers if he would only focus. He should not have played after the 86/7 Ashes series which saw his last century and last fivefer. But he still got another fifteen or so tests of bad performances which was a bit sad remembering the lion he used to be. If I were him I would have worked really hard on my batting and taken up offspin - he got a fivefer bowling in that style in 1984.

Imran made himself into a reliable test match #6. He, Botham and Kapil could get into their test sides purely as batters. Hadlee could not - he was more of a bowler who would get fast test fifties.

 

[as-95]

I think that there are three categories of pace bowling all-rounder.

1. Batsmen who can bowl
Garry Sobers batted 10/10, bowled 5/10
Jacques Kallis batted 9/10, bowled 5/10
Clive Rice batted 8/10, bowled 6/10

(Grading compared to Specialist bowlers and batters)

2. Genuine balanced all-rounders
Imran Khan batted 7/10, bowled 9/10
Kapil Dev batted 7/10, bowled 7/10
Ian Botham batted 7/10, bowled 8/10
Mike Procter batted 7/10, bowled 9/10
Andrew Flintoff batted 7/10, bowled 7/10

3. Bowlers who could bat
Shaun Pollock batted 6/10, bowled 9/10
Richard Hadlee batted 5/10, bowled 9/10
Wasim Akram batted 4/10, bowled 9/10
Mitchell Johnson batted 4/10, bowled 8/10

Interesting split. Since you rated Kapil's batting ability to be on par with Pollocks earlier on, would it be fair for Pollock to scrape in to the Balance all rounder category?

Also I see that Flintoff and Kapil Dev have received the same rating by yourself. I believe this is a fair comparison as neither of them are true top tier all rounders but are a tier or two below the greats like Imran, Botham etc... Who would you rather have in your team between Kapil Dev and Flintoff if both were at their peaks?

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

The 100 Dev scored in SA vs Donald and co was a treat, I saw that innings to TV, rest of the Indian batting just folded like a pack of cards.. But I don't recall Dev having an arm injury though in that innings..

There was an injury to his right hand.

Coming back to the third Test, Allan Donald had steamed through the Indian batting line-up after being put in to bat on what looked like a sporting wicket. He had been quoted as saying that the Indians ran from fast bowling and justified his claims by taking five for 55 as India were bowled out for 212; the only silver lining for the visitors was skipper Mohammad Azharuddin’s fighting 60. However, South Africa could not make the most out of Donald’s heroics and got a first-innings lead of just 63 runs, grace à Hansie Cronje’s patient 135.

The Indians would have hoped for a turnaround in their batting in the second innings. They had, after all, the likes of Ravi Shastri, Sanjay Manjrekar, Sachin Tendulkar and Azharuddin in their ranks. But Donald wasn’t satisfied with just five wickets for the match.

“White Lightning” thundered through the Indian batting line-up yet again on Day Three and took four wickets as India wobbled to 71 for six at stumps with Kapil and Manoj Prabhakar at the crease. All top-six batsmen were out for single-figure scores within 21 overs before Kapil provided some resistance along with Prabhakar. Coming in to bat at 27 for five, it would have been so easy for the former India skipper to be disheartened and consider it a lost cause, but Kapil wasn’t giving up so easy.

The next day, December 29, Kapil forged vital partnerships with the lower order and defied the South African attack with what Wisden described as “a thrilling exhibition of classical driving and forceful leg-side strokes.”Making his knock even more impressive was the fact that Kapil was playing with an injured right hand. “The key was attack,” wrote veteran journalist Suresh Menon, “and there were some of the finest drives you could hope to see on a cricket field. Kapil’s generous back-lift and full follow-through sent the fast bowlers boundary-wards” in what was one of the best counter-attacks you would get to see on a cricket field.

Kapil scored 96 of the 144 runs India added to their overnight score – with one working hand – and in the process reached his eighth Test hundred. He was supported by Prabhakar, Kiran More and Anil Kumble – each of whom scored 17 runs in partnerships of 57, 32 and 77, respectively. The 33-year-old Kapil was eventually the last man to fall, caught in the slips off Donald’s bowling for 129 off 180 balls including 14 fours and a six. What was amazing was that Kapil had utilised half the number of deliveries as Cronje had for his 135.

Kapil’s heroics meant South Africa had to chase down 153 in three hours, or risk the weather intervening on the fifth day. Eventually, South Africa got there comfortably with captain Kepler Wessels scoring 95 out of their score of 155 for one with seven minutes left for stumps. It was a memorable win for the Proteas, their first in 22 years. Incidentally, their last win in 1970 against Australia had come on this very ground. Donald was understandably given the Man of the Match award for his match tally of 12 for 139, but if anyone deserved it other than him, it was Kapil.

The ageing warrior’s knock would go down as one of the finest by an Indian in losing causes – right alongside Azharuddin’s unbeaten 103 at Wellington, VVS Laxman’s 167 at Sydney, Tendulkar’s 136 at Chennai and Tiger Pataudi’s 148 at Headingley. It was, as Menon noted, “thrilling stuff”.

https://www.cricketcountry.com/arti...h-fire-against-a-rampaging-allan-donald-21471

If you or anyone else can find a video of that knock, it would be great.

 

[Napa]

Jubilee test was just 1 match. Basing everything on one match is rubbish. I can prove that a random journeyman>Lara/Warne/Sachin/Kallis/Younis if allowed to pick one match.

Are you ready to accept that Pandya>Stokes based on the Trent Bridge test earlier this year or even better Agarkar>Gillespie based on Adelaide 2003?

My memories of Kapil are individual moments of brilliance which seem to change India's cricket forever. His 175 in WC 1983 and the match-winning catch of Richards in the final, moments like those...

 

[Bilal7]

An average of 35. This is higher than Kapil's career average of 31 so he batted slightly better. However, the pathetic bowling average of 39 tarnishes his all round performance!

This is a fair assessment. I would agree that Kapil is a third tier all rounder in the tier below Kallis and Botham. As such he is a great all rounder and probably an Indian cricketing great as opposed to an ATG!

ATG Tier:

1) Imran
2) Sobers
3) Miller

Great Tier:

4) Kallis
5) Botham
6) Pollock

Good Tier:

7) Kapil
8) Hadlee
9) Mushtaq Mohammad
10) Flintoff

This is only based on their credentials as "all-rounders", not as batsmen or bowlers. Also, the list is not all-inclusive and I'm sure I missed a few deserving names in the top ten.

 

[Muhammad10]

You make a fair point... Someone who is arguably an ATG of the game cannot perform so poorly in 6 out of 9 countries in the world. Im not worried about all of his series losses abroad as its very difficult to win an away Test series against a good side. My qualm with Kapil is his extremely poor performance.

I ask you the same question that i pitched to the previous poster; would you consider Kapil as an ATG of the game or simply an Indian Great?

I suppose there can be a case made for him being a borderline ATG. I think that is more due to his successful ODI career than him in Tests, where he was probably an Indian great or a world class all-rounder at best. Of course, I am not trying to put him down here, but it takes a lot to earn the ATG tag...

In my opinion, Botham and Kapil were both at a similar level as world class players/borderline ATGs, whereas Hadlee and Imran were both bonafide ATGs considering their amazing records. Imran was obviously the greatest among the legendary quartet, no doubt about that.

 

[as-95]

ATG Tier:

1) Imran
2) Sobers
3) Miller

Great Tier:

4) Kallis
5) Botham
6) Pollock

Good Tier:

7) Kapil
8) Hadlee
9) Mushtaq Mohammad
10) Flintoff

This is only based on their credentials as "all-rounders", not as batsmen or bowlers. Also, the list is not all-inclusive and I'm sure I missed a few deserving names in the top ten.

Fair points. The only changes I would make is to add Hadlee to the great tier as he was a level above Kapil et al... However, that is quite a fair ranking. All Time Great is the Greatest possible category so I don't think we should throw players in so easily.

I am also inclined to make the great tier into a lower tier ATG as follows:

ATG:Sobers, Imran
Lower Tier ATG:Botham, Kallis etc
Good/Great tier:Kapil, Flintoff, Shakib etc

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Lol Kapil is a certified ATG all rounder.

Well recognised all over the world.

ATG AR doesn't hav to be an ATG with the ball or bat.

 

[Proactive_]

Ok let's first get this nonsense that Kapil was not an ATG out of the way here.

As a bowler he was a consistently Top 10 ranked bowler for almost a decade and a half. His rankings at the start of every year from 1980 onwards:

1980 - 2
1981 - 3
1982 - 8
1983 - 11
1984 - 3
1985 - 7
1986- 6
1987 - 6
1988 - 6
1989 - 10
1990- 5
1991 - 11
1992- 9
1993- 8
1994 - 8

For all the criticism that has been of his bowling and supposedly poor records, he was good enough to be a Top 10 bowler in an era where there were great bowlers galore, that too carrying a non existent bowling unit to boot. Getting 23 5-fors is no joke. Not calling him a "great bowler" by any means but definitely much above the category of just being "good". He was pretty darn good.

Add to that the fact that he scored 8 Test hundreds (second highest among his all rounder peers), including some absolutely outrageous innings like his 129 in SA towards the end of his career when the scorecard above his name looked something like this:

These facts alone make him qualified enough to be an ATG. And these are just statistics, I'm not even going into the cultural significance his career had on the fast bowling landscape of India or the change in attitudes his method of play brought into the team of no hopers who were more than happy to chase draws, or his significance as the captain of a WC winning team. Kapil is an icon and would be EASILY the first name on the team sheet of any and every international team in 2018.


Sure, his bowling figures aren't as flattering as some of his peers and it's for this reason that he's not regarded as an ATG bowler. But considering what he brought to the team as an overall cricketer.. he's pretty damn well an ATG, and you can bet your bottom dollar on it.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Ok let's first get this nonsense that Kapil was not an ATG out of the way here.

As a bowler he was a consistently Top 10 ranked bowler for almost a decade and a half. His rankings at the start of every year from 1980 onwards:

1980 - 2
1981 - 3
1982 - 8
1983 - 11
1984 - 3
1985 - 7
1986- 6
1987 - 6
1988 - 6
1989 - 10
1990- 5
1991 - 11
1992- 9
1993- 8
1994 - 8

For all the criticism that has been of his bowling and supposedly poor records, he was good enough to be a Top 10 bowler in an era where there were great bowlers galore, that too carrying a non existent bowling unit to boot. Getting 23 5-fors is no joke. Not calling him a "great bowler" by any means but definitely much above the category of just being "good". He was pretty darn good.

Add to that the fact that he scored 8 Test hundreds (second highest among his all rounder peers), including some absolutely outrageous innings like his 129 in SA towards the end of his career when the scorecard above his name looked something like this:

These facts alone make him qualified enough to be an ATG. And these are just statistics, I'm not even going into the cultural significance his career had on the fast bowling landscape of India or the change in attitudes his method of play brought into the team of no hopers who were more than happy to chase draws, or his significance as the captain of a WC winning team. Kapil is an icon and would be EASILY the first name on the team sheet of any and every international team in 2018.


Sure, his bowling figures aren't as flattering as some of his peers and it's for this reason that he's not regarded as an ATG bowler. But considering what he brought to the team as an overall cricketer.. he's pretty damn well an ATG, and you can bet your bottom dollar on it.

Great post man!

 

[Swashbuckler]

[MENTION=145164]Proactive_[/MENTION] top effort man.

 

[Romali_rotti]

I’m not a particular Kapil fan to be truthful, but there seems a lot of historic revisionism around here these days and the bloke was really good for a long time and doesn’t get the credit he deserves.

As for your list where is #4?

I would say that Botham is the best bat overall - but the dent in his figures against WI counts against him. And his figures drop off spectacularly in his last few years. He was so annoying because you knew he could be another Sobers if he would only focus. He should not have played after the 86/7 Ashes series which saw his last century and last fivefer. But he still got another fifteen or so tests of bad performances which was a bit sad remembering the lion he used to be. If I were him I would have worked really hard on my batting and taken up offspin - he got a fivefer bowling in that style in 1984.

Imran made himself into a reliable test match #6. He, Botham and Kapil could get into their test sides purely as batters. Hadlee could not - he was more of a bowler who would get fast test fifties.

Ahah sorry typo with no.4 ... Fair enough, interesting to know Botham bowled himself to a 5for with offspin, who was the opponent if I may ask ?

 

[Romali_rotti]

There was an injury to his right hand.



https://www.cricketcountry.com/arti...h-fire-against-a-rampaging-allan-donald-21471

If you or anyone else can find a video of that knock, it would be great.

Thanks for that, didnt know Dev was injured while batting. No doubts he was wayyyy more talenteded with the bat that Imran, Botham...

 

[Monsee]

[MENTION=134706]as-95[/MENTION], I would def consider Kapil an ATG All Rounder, well above cluless all rounder of today like Ashwin, Jadeja, and Co. I also consider him an ATG for India but bowling or batting wise, he does not have the stats to be an ATG on the world stage!

Having extremely poor bowling averages (which was his stronger attribute), clearly also shows how Indian fans are so fickle in picking on Pak players for being average/poor in Australia and SA (of all the places), yet are defending Kapil with all their might; real hypocrisy if you ask me.

Now what is ironic is that one hand several people say we should look beyond his stats (especially averages and SR etc.) to judge him yet quite a few Indian fans keep acting like parrots in saying oh since Imran does not have a video showing him bowling at 150 KPH, he cannot be anything more than the 139 KPH despite the fact that: he was recorded while being very new/raw and not established yet back then, having a completely different action, and obviously well before his peak years of 1981-86.

It can't be one rule for Kapil and another for Imran despite the fact that many have indicated that when he was in rhythm, he could bowl as fast as most if not all, something that was eveident in that competition as well!

 

[Pete Rose]

One thread that ties all these threads. It all starts from [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] on the crowd attendance in australia this summer.

 

[Robert]

Ahah sorry typo with no.4 ... Fair enough, interesting to know Botham bowled himself to a 5for with offspin, who was the opponent if I may ask ?

It was SL in 1984. They had the better of the match scoring 400 in their first dig. Wettimuny got 190 as I recall.

 

[Muhammad10]

Thanks for that, didnt know Dev was injured while batting. No doubts he was wayyyy more talenteded with the bat that Imran, Botham...

You keep throwing this "more talented" label around as if he achieved something great by being more talented than players who ended up leaving him far behind. If anything, it reflects poorly on his desire, or lack thereof, to achieve greatness as a cricketer.

What is the use of talent when it fails to live up to its potential, particularly away from home where his team needed him the most? Is Kohli better or Rohit Sharma? I guess I am starting to understand why "bhaijaan" made that Rahul vs Kohli thread now...

 

[as-95]

Lol Kapil is a certified ATG all rounder.

Well recognised all over the world.

ATG AR doesn't hav to be an ATG with the ball or bat.

I don't think he is a certified ATG All rounder. PakPassion doesn't represent views around the whole world, but it's certainly debatable whether Kapil Dev is an ATG or simply an Indian great of the game. His pathetic performances in 6 out of the 9 countries he has played in questions his status with respect to the true ATG All rounders.

 

[Shandarchowka]

He was your everyday allrounder who had some good days. Not really comparable to the likes of Imran, Botham, Sobers, Kallis, or Hadlee. I can imagine Kapil trundling in like Ishant to only get whipped to no end by the batsmen.. would have been fun for spectators..

 

[as-95]

Ok let's first get this nonsense that Kapil was not an ATG out of the way here.

As a bowler he was a consistently Top 10 ranked bowler for almost a decade and a half. His rankings at the start of every year from 1980 onwards:

1980 - 2
1981 - 3
1982 - 8
1983 - 11
1984 - 3
1985 - 7
1986- 6
1987 - 6
1988 - 6
1989 - 10
1990- 5
1991 - 11
1992- 9
1993- 8
1994 - 8

For all the criticism that has been of his bowling and supposedly poor records, he was good enough to be a Top 10 bowler in an era where there were great bowlers galore, that too carrying a non existent bowling unit to boot. Getting 23 5-fors is no joke. Not calling him a "great bowler" by any means but definitely much above the category of just being "good". He was pretty darn good.

Add to that the fact that he scored 8 Test hundreds (second highest among his all rounder peers), including some absolutely outrageous innings like his 129 in SA towards the end of his career when the scorecard above his name looked something like this:

These facts alone make him qualified enough to be an ATG. And these are just statistics, I'm not even going into the cultural significance his career had on the fast bowling landscape of India or the change in attitudes his method of play brought into the team of no hopers who were more than happy to chase draws, or his significance as the captain of a WC winning team. Kapil is an icon and would be EASILY the first name on the team sheet of any and every international team in 2018.


Sure, his bowling figures aren't as flattering as some of his peers and it's for this reason that he's not regarded as an ATG bowler. But considering what he brought to the team as an overall cricketer.. he's pretty damn well an ATG, and you can bet your bottom dollar on it.

Rankings prove nothing and are futile. Kapil Dev never reached the number 1 ranking in bowling and languished in the lower half of the top 10 rankings. There has been plenty of average players who have cracked the top 10 and being a top 10 bowler is no great accomplishment. He was a good bowler amongst the 'lower half of top 10' bowler's during his career. All this proves is that he was amongst the top 10 of bowlers during his playing career. Noone is disputing that he was a top 10 bowler amongst his peers. The question that people are asking is if he deserves to be compared to the ATG all rounders like Imran, Sobers, Hadlee, Kallis etc.

Being a top 10 calibre bowler with a poor bowling average that was severely damaged when he went overseas, damages his claim for ATG status and it is arguable that he is merely an Indian great. This is a great achievement in itself as India have had many legends of the game. It's just arguable that Kapil Dev doesn't sit at the table with the All Time Greats!!!

 

[as-95]

He was your everyday allrounder who had some good days. Not really comparable to the likes of Imran, Botham, Sobers, Kallis, or Hadlee. I can imagine Kapil trundling in like Ishant to only get whipped to no end by the batsmen.. would have been fun for spectators..

This is a fair statement. Kapil was definitely capable of having good days but so were many other all rounders like Freddie Flintoff! However, the greatest all rounders had consistently good days and don'tget whipped in 6 of the 9 countries that they played in. This is why I am questioning whether he is merely an Indian Great or someone who scrapes into the ATG All rounder debate. At the moment, I am more inclined to say he is not an ATG!