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Why do the Pakistani and Indian military have such contrasting approaches to politics?

Adil_94

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This is a question that has puzzled me for a long time. How has the Indian state managed to preserve its democracy and civil government since 1947 and prevent a military takeover of govt like we have seen in Pakistan and to a lesser extent Bangladesh and many other post colonial states. Does the Indian Army not have an interest in politics or is it just better controlled. And why is the Pakistani military so involved and influential in politics.
 
A true story: In 1957, Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru, visiting the office of General Thimayya, the Chief of Army Staff, saw a steel cabinet behind his desk, and asked the General what it contained.

The General replied that the top drawer contained the nation’s defence plans. And the second drawer contained the confidential files of the nation’s top generals.

And what about the third drawer, enquired Nehru.

Ah, said the General with a straight face, the third drawer contains my secret plans for a military coup against you.

Nehru laughed, but there was apparently a tinge of nervousness to his laughter.

Military dictatorships have been a common phenomenon in the post-colonial states of Asia and Africa, and in the 1950s and 1960s, a dictatorship in India was not an impossibility. In fact, while covering the 1967 general elections, The Times correspondent, Neville Maxwell, prophesied that these might well be the last elections ever in the country. And he was not the only one who believed that sooner or later, India would fall under military rule.

But that eventuality, of course, never happened.

Why not?

The question why the Indian army never attempted to seize power has sometimes been attributed to the fact that it is a disciplined, highly professional army, steeped in proud 250-year old traditions inherited from the British. But this theory doesn’t work, because the Pakistani army was born out of the same traditions and that didn’t seem to stop it from assuming power.

Indeed, one could argue that it was precisely because the Pakistan army was such a highly professional force that there came a time when it felt it could no longer stand by and watch the country slide into chaos, and felt it was its duty to step in.

So clearly this is a question one needs to look at more closely. Which is what political scientist Steven Wilkinson has done with his excellent new book, Army and Nation.

In order to understand what didn’t happen in India, it is perhaps useful to first look at what did happen in Pakistan. The military dictatorship in Pakistan has had an interesting pre-history. It begins in undivided India, where the largest single component of the army was drawn from the undivided Punjab. Hence at the time of Partition, of all the institutions that Pakistan inherited, the most substantive was its army.

Moreover, while in India the Congress Party was a highly evolved, durable organisation, in Pakistan the Muslim League was not much more than “Jinnah and his Private Secretary”. Hence, there was a dangerous structural imbalance in Pakistan, especially after Jinnah’s death in 1948.

Mashallah ho gaya

The Military dictatorship in Pakistan did not come out of the blue. In the early 1950s, for example, there were riots in Lahore that raged on because the civilian authorities were unable to control them. Finally the army was called out, and it swiftly and firmly put down the trouble.

Then the commanding officer made an unusual request: he asked for another couple of days before withdrawing his troops to the barracks. In those few, quick days, the army proceeded to clean up the city, paint public buildings, repair roads, pull down unauthorised structures and plant trees. Then, having performed all these long neglected civic tasks, the army quietly withdrew, leaving Lahore looking as clean and well-ordered as an army cantonment.

This earned the army a great deal of respect among the public: it had managed to do for the city in a few days what the civilian authority had failed to do over the years. Hence, when in 1958, the Governor-General of Pakistan responded to a state of political chaos in the country by declaring martial law, and calling out the army, there was a section of the public that rejoiced at the news. In fact, a saying that went around at the time was, “Pakistan mein ab toh mashallah ho gaya”, playing on the term ‘martial law’, and translating, roughly, as “By the grace of God, things in Pakistan are well now.”

What followed over the next few years was a period of remarkable national development in Pakistan, under the presidency of General Ayub Khan – before the military government began to get corrupted by its own power (as always, inevitably, happens in such a system).

Ring-fencing the Indian army

The Indian Army was born out of the same tradition as Pakistan’s. In British India, the army enjoyed a prominent position in Indian life, and even played a role in policy matters. The Commander-in-Chief, was also the de facto Defence Minister, and was the second most powerful person in the hierarchy after the Viceroy himself. But after Independence things began to change.

Prime Minister Nehru believed that the new India needed to re-think the role of the army, and initiated a policy that would firmly subordinate it to the civilian authority. One of the first things that happened after Independence, for example, was that Teen Murti House, traditionally the grand residence of the army chief, was assigned instead to the Prime Minister: a small matter by itself, perhaps, but a clear indicator of the way the wind was blowing.

Next came a series of budget cuts (resulting, among other things, in hefty cuts in army officers’ generous Raj-era salaries). And when India’s first army chief, Field Marshal Cariappa, publicly criticised the government’s economic performance, he was immediately rapped on the knuckles, and told not to meddle in matters that did not concern him.

Over the years a systematic programme was pursued to ring-fence the armed forces, and their influence in Indian society – a program that was given fresh urgency in 1958 by the military coup in next-door Pakistan (an occurrence that was worryingly praised by Field Marshal Cariappa, who had recently retired as Army chief). A highlight – or, rather, lowlight – of that ring-fencing programme was the appointment of Krishna Menon, a powerful, abrasive, leftist intellectual, as Defence Minister. It was an attempt to put the armed forces unambiguously in their place. Unfortunately, it also had the unintended side effect of leading to the stinging defeat of 1962, but that is a different story.

An unrecognised achievement

By the 1970s, the Indian armed forces had finally been rendered ‘coup-proof’ by a comprehensive system of checks and balances that had been put in place. And that might be considered to be one of the major achievements of the Nehru era: ensuring the durability of Indian democracy. It’s an achievement that is not sufficiently recognized; an achievement underscored by the fact that all our South Asian neighbours – Pakistan, Bangladesh, Burma and Sri Lanka– have experienced military coups, actual or attempted.

Wilkinson explains how this ‘coup proofing’ was implemented, through a package of carefully thought-out measures, ranging from diversifying the ethnic composition of the armed forces to setting up rugged command and control structures, re-casting the order of precedence between civil and military authorities, paying close attention to promotions, disallowing army officers from making public statements, creating a counter-balancing para-military force, and topping off this entire effort with little touches like ensuring that retired chiefs of staff are usually sent off as ambassadors to faraway countries.

The end result of all this is that when, in 2012, newspapers breathlessly reported that there had been a coup attempt, with army units being surreptitiously moved towards Delhi in the wake of the General V.K. Singh affair, people like you and I, merely shrugged, said, “What nonsense,” and turned to the sports page.

We perhaps don’t realise what a luxury that kind of certainty that is.


https://scroll.in/article/731426/why-there-has-never-been-a-military-dictatorship-in-india
 
I'm optimistic that Pakistan has seen it's last military coup. The civilian politicians need to stop looting and plundering and the army will stay in the barracks. We also need the judiciary to be strong and not authenticate any military coup.
 
In simplistic terms, once we got past the first 10-20 years of independence with the same (democratic) system at the end as the one we began with, that only made it more difficult for any opportunistic military commander to march to the capital and hoist the flag.

Pakistan wasn't so lucky. They lost Jinnah very early in their nationhood and the void was duly filled by the army soon after. And once it happened for the first time, it was only a matter of years into the next civilian run that it could happen again - and it did. And again.
 
Our generals are not ambitious enough,plus they don't get enough time to "popularize" themselves.I come to know quicker about Pakistani generals taking in charge(could be coz of forum) than Indian ones.
 
If we look at the liberated countries since World War 2, I think India might be the only one to have avoided a military coup altogether.
 
This is a question that has puzzled me for a long time. How has the Indian state managed to preserve its democracy and civil government since 1947 and prevent a military takeover of govt like we have seen in Pakistan and to a lesser extent Bangladesh and many other post colonial states. Does the Indian Army not have an interest in politics or is it just better controlled. And why is the Pakistani military so involved and influential in politics.
Pakistan need strong political leaders who can take on Pakistan Army and put them on their place. Pakistan Army was created for Pakistan but it more looks like Pakistan was created for Pakistan Army. :facepalm: Pakistan Army do all sort of bad things and get away with it because they are not accountable.
 
Pakistan need strong political leaders who can take on Pakistan Army and put them on their place. Pakistan Army was created for Pakistan but it more looks like Pakistan was created for Pakistan Army. :facepalm: Pakistan Army do all sort of bad things and get away with it because they are not accountable.

Yeah, that's not going to happen. The system is so heavily tilted in the army's favor that anytime their privileged position is threatened, they can browbeat the government into giving them even more privileges and push comes to shove, there's always the threat of a coup.
 
Yeah, that's not going to happen. The system is so heavily tilted in the army's favor that anytime their privileged position is threatened, they can browbeat the government into giving them even more privileges and push comes to shove, there's always the threat of a coup.

May be if the democratic government delivered the army would have had less of a standing in the eyes of people. However, PMLN and PPP have only looted the nation. It not difficult to understand.
 
The Potohar region of the Pak Punjab (when we talk of "Punjabi Army", it's barely southern Punjab or even central one in fact) has been famous for providing soldiers to the Britisn Indian Army (some 60% of the volunteers to the BIA during WWII came from this little place, with the majority being Muslims who would make up Pakistan). The local tribes always had a martial approach to politics (Kayanis, Rajputs, ...) and just translated their archaic traditions into the new configuration of a nation-State when Pakistan was founded ; it was facilitated by Field Marshall Ayyub Khan - a tool of the reactionary bourgeoisie -, when he took the power from the socialist Fatima Jinnah.

India was too large for its "martial races" to monopolize power, and already had many years of "popular political tradition" in Maharashtra and Bengal even before the Partition (because of the strong Mughal tradition continued by the British, the anthropological structure in Pak regions was such that only feudal families were made representative of the political structure - see the Unionist Party in the Punjab - : there was no tradition of seeking popular suffrage to legitimize its rule ; it was hereditary, or at least imposed "from above" ; thus the lack of "democratic" impetus - Jinnah in fact was one of the rare "self made" Pakistan Movement leader).
 
May be if the democratic government delivered the army would have had less of a standing in the eyes of people. However, PMLN and PPP have only looted the nation. It not difficult to understand.

It's not like the military has done any better, having ruled the country for half of its existence. Only reason people have a better image of them is because no one is allowed to talk about their misdeeds and failings or they disappear like Saleem Shahzad and the bloggers did. Never read of any of their failings in textbooks either. If any elected government had that kind of control over how they're reported on, they'd have similar approval ratings.
 
I think there are several factors that need to be noted.

Political Culture - in the colonial era authoritarianism remained more deeply entrenched in the areas that now constitute Pakistan compared with the rest of India. These areas were acquired for strategic rather than commercial reasons and were annexed much later by Britian. In relation to the this, Tan Tai Yong has argued that Punjab’s key role as a recruiting ground for the Indian army during colonial times, meant it was in Britain’s interest to ensure that the state remained placid and military interests were protected. What emerged as a result according to Tan Tai Yong was a civil-military state in the Punjab. There was an entrenchment, a convergence and a nexus of interests between the bureaucracy, the military and rural notables. The foundations were therefore already in place for a civil-military alliance to take control of the state apparatus at the time of Pakistan's birth. This contrasts with rest of India where there was a growing politicisation before the end of the Raj leading to a political culture at independence that was conducive to a democratic ethos and the presence of a ruling elite schooled in and believing in the merits of democracy.

Political parties - By 1947 the Muslim League remained a ramshackle organisation dependent on its unity mainly on the cause of Pakistan and the moral leadership of Jinnah. Many landlords jumped on the Muslim League bandwagon in the 1940s. Many of them were known more for their opportunism and factionalism than ideological commitment. Once Pakistan was achieved it was not surprising that the Muslim League disintegrated as landlords squabbled. Jinnah worked hard in the last decade to strengthen the party, but 10 years was simply not enough to transform it into a strong institution. Indeed it must be remembered that the struggle for Pakistan was only for 7 years, and that its creation only became inevitable after 1946. There was not enough time for Muslim League to institutionalise the mass support or to prepare for independent statehood. In popular conceptions, Pakistan symbolised the unity of Muslims and the individual commitment of Muslims to Islam. But this was an aspirational vision, rather than one which was a detailed blue-print of for the exercise of state power in an independent Muslim state. It could be argued that the lack of a shared and nuanced vision halted the constitution making process. On the other hand, the Congress party had become more strongly institutionalised by 1947 and had experience of government and as an ‘umbrella’ party was able to deal with the processes of bargaining and accommodation to become the dominant party. The Congress well before independence had looked to address potential interference from the army. Such discussions were absent in the Muslim League. India also took a number of important steps to reduce the likelihood of a coup after independence. To point to just a couple: in 1947, the Commander in Chief was removed from Cabinet and made to report to the Defence Minister. In 1955 the Commander in Chief’s power was also reduced within in the military, when they were downgraded to the new position of “Chief of Army Staff.” This in fact encouraged interservice rivalries making successful coordination much more difficult.

Effect of Partition - Pakistan faced massive problems at the time of partition and was ill-equipped for independent statehood. Pakistan soon after its birth was battling to survive and barely a going-concern. Having to carve out a new institutional structure, linking provinces to a new centre and that too in financially difficult circumstances, severely hampered the development of a democratic process, with an emphasis instead on consolidating the state. Pakistan also had to guard the north-west frontier (a massive cost burden on its own) as well as the new border with India with meagre tax revenues. The lack of strategic depth in Pakistan and the perceived threat of India led to an effort to strengthen the army as well as an emphasis on an over-centralised state. Maintaining territorial integrity was viewed as more crucial than developing democracy. The greater sense of insecurity Pakistan felt, also encouraged Pakistani elites to seek assistance from the US, cementing the international connections between bureaucrats and military officials and Washington, which helped the army achieve pre-eminence in the cold war context. In addition Mohammad Waseem has drawn attention to the fact that many of the Muslim League politicians upon migration to the new land lost their local power bases. Clearly there existed an incentive not to hold elections for these politicians. India on the other hand inherited the British Raj’s unitary centre, the bureaucracy and the personality of British India. It was on stronger economic and strategic foundations and did not face the same financial constraints as Pakistan. The size of India also made military takeover much more difficult owing the level of co-ordination required.

Social and economic Structure - the dominance of landlords in Punjab, the demographic majority of Punjab in West Pakistan, but the demographic majority of Bengal overall in Pakistan, the dominance in the army of northern Punjabis, the stark divisions between West and East Pakistan, the high number of refugees as a proportion of the population, were all factors less favourable in promoting democracy as they undermined stability. India on the other hand had a social structure marked by incredible diversity which meant no one group had a majority. Division based on caste also made collective action to overthrow a democratic regime very difficult, as Perry Anderson has recently argued. It needs to be stated as well that the Pakistan army was highly ethnically imbalanced. In Pakistan – unlike India – the massive Punjabi overrepresentation in the army (a colonial inheritance) was not cross-cut by other cleavages. As Morris Janowitz, has noted “armies with high internal cohesion will have greater capacity to intervene in domestic politics.”
 
Thanks @KB it was a good read and i do agree on most points you raised.
 
MA Jinnah did not live long enough to implement his views on future politicians leaving Pakistan fatherless at a very young age. After him we had no mature politicians to guide the country, those who opposed the creation of Pakistan then wanted to take credit for it coming in to being. India had a great advantage with Nehru living well after independence that benefitted his country in many ways.
 
I think there are several factors that need to be noted.

Political Culture - in the colonial era authoritarianism remained more deeply entrenched in the areas that now constitute Pakistan compared with the rest of India. These areas were acquired for strategic rather than commercial reasons and were annexed much later by Britian. In relation to the this, Tan Tai Yong has argued that Punjab’s key role as a recruiting ground for the Indian army during colonial times, meant it was in Britain’s interest to ensure that the state remained placid and military interests were protected. What emerged as a result according to Tan Tai Yong was a civil-military state in the Punjab. There was an entrenchment, a convergence and a nexus of interests between the bureaucracy, the military and rural notables. The foundations were therefore already in place for a civil-military alliance to take control of the state apparatus at the time of Pakistan's birth. This contrasts with rest of India where there was a growing politicisation before the end of the Raj leading to a political culture at independence that was conducive to a democratic ethos and the presence of a ruling elite schooled in and believing in the merits of democracy.

Political parties - By 1947 the Muslim League remained a ramshackle organisation dependent on its unity mainly on the cause of Pakistan and the moral leadership of Jinnah. Many landlords jumped on the Muslim League bandwagon in the 1940s. Many of them were known more for their opportunism and factionalism than ideological commitment. Once Pakistan was achieved it was not surprising that the Muslim League disintegrated as landlords squabbled. Jinnah worked hard in the last decade to strengthen the party, but 10 years was simply not enough to transform it into a strong institution. Indeed it must be remembered that the struggle for Pakistan was only for 7 years, and that its creation only became inevitable after 1946. There was not enough time for Muslim League to institutionalise the mass support or to prepare for independent statehood. In popular conceptions, Pakistan symbolised the unity of Muslims and the individual commitment of Muslims to Islam. But this was an aspirational vision, rather than one which was a detailed blue-print of for the exercise of state power in an independent Muslim state. It could be argued that the lack of a shared and nuanced vision halted the constitution making process. On the other hand, the Congress party had become more strongly institutionalised by 1947 and had experience of government and as an ‘umbrella’ party was able to deal with the processes of bargaining and accommodation to become the dominant party. The Congress well before independence had looked to address potential interference from the army. Such discussions were absent in the Muslim League. India also took a number of important steps to reduce the likelihood of a coup after independence. To point to just a couple: in 1947, the Commander in Chief was removed from Cabinet and made to report to the Defence Minister. In 1955 the Commander in Chief’s power was also reduced within in the military, when they were downgraded to the new position of “Chief of Army Staff.” This in fact encouraged interservice rivalries making successful coordination much more difficult.

Effect of Partition - Pakistan faced massive problems at the time of partition and was ill-equipped for independent statehood. Pakistan soon after its birth was battling to survive and barely a going-concern. Having to carve out a new institutional structure, linking provinces to a new centre and that too in financially difficult circumstances, severely hampered the development of a democratic process, with an emphasis instead on consolidating the state. Pakistan also had to guard the north-west frontier (a massive cost burden on its own) as well as the new border with India with meagre tax revenues. The lack of strategic depth in Pakistan and the perceived threat of India led to an effort to strengthen the army as well as an emphasis on an over-centralised state. Maintaining territorial integrity was viewed as more crucial than developing democracy. The greater sense of insecurity Pakistan felt, also encouraged Pakistani elites to seek assistance from the US, cementing the international connections between bureaucrats and military officials and Washington, which helped the army achieve pre-eminence in the cold war context. In addition Mohammad Waseem has drawn attention to the fact that many of the Muslim League politicians upon migration to the new land lost their local power bases. Clearly there existed an incentive not to hold elections for these politicians. India on the other hand inherited the British Raj’s unitary centre, the bureaucracy and the personality of British India. It was on stronger economic and strategic foundations and did not face the same financial constraints as Pakistan. The size of India also made military takeover much more difficult owing the level of co-ordination required.

Social and economic Structure - the dominance of landlords in Punjab, the demographic majority of Punjab in West Pakistan, but the demographic majority of Bengal overall in Pakistan, the dominance in the army of northern Punjabis, the stark divisions between West and East Pakistan, the high number of refugees as a proportion of the population, were all factors less favourable in promoting democracy as they undermined stability. India on the other hand had a social structure marked by incredible diversity which meant no one group had a majority. Division based on caste also made collective action to overthrow a democratic regime very difficult, as Perry Anderson has recently argued. It needs to be stated as well that the Pakistan army was highly ethnically imbalanced. In Pakistan – unlike India – the massive Punjabi overrepresentation in the army (a colonial inheritance) was not cross-cut by other cleavages. As Morris Janowitz, has noted “armies with high internal cohesion will have greater capacity to intervene in domestic politics.”

@POTW post by @KB. Nice to know the Paksitani perspective on the fate of military in both countries. I had read upon the Indian example way back. This was very informative.
 
Which book would anybody recommend if i want to read about unbiased political history of Pakistan based on actual facts like KB states usually in his posts
 
With all due respect to Pakistan and i hope my Pakistani friends spare me the bashing but democracy in Pakistan cant prosper with feudalism.Feudalism and democracy are poles asunder.The Land lords Jagirdars control huge swathes of lands and properties so the landless workers who dont even own land or house do they really own their votes?How much influence do these land lords have on voting?

Secondly i have seen on this forum a huge support for Army ruling.Though the trend is decreasing.Army cannot rule,its not their job.Pak Army holds power not through the gun but through the influence it has on the people.

Third Pakistan needs to be divided in more provinces.No province should hold more than 20% of total seats of NA.

Indians simply wont accept any semblance of dictatorship.Indira Gandhi learnt it the hard way.

I wish my Pakistani friends all the goodluck and pray they have functioning strong and vibrant democracy.
 
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With all due respect to Pakistan and i hope my Pakistani friends spare me the bashing but democracy in Pakistan cant prosper with feudalism.Feudalism and democracy are poles asunder.The Land lords Jagirdars control huge swathes of lands and properties so the landless workers who dont even own land or house do they really own their votes?How much influence do these land lords have on voting?

Secondly i have seen on this forum a huge support for Army ruling.Though the trend is decreasing.Army cannot rule,its not their job.Pak Army holds power not through the gun but through the influence it has on the people.

Indians simply wont accept any semblance of dictatorship.Indira Gandhi learnt it the hard way.

I wish my Pakistani friends all the goodluck and pray they have functioning strong and vibrant democracy.

Very good point.
 
[MENTION=142288]TQ89[/MENTION] anatol lieven has a really good book on Pakistan.

Also anything about Ian Talbot explains the reasons for the 'democracy deficit' in the regions that make u
up Pak today.

But now it seems Paks democracy is maturing
 
NS & Co are keep on saying there is Sazish behind their Govt Toppling, yet in 100s of press conferences and Jilsas, not once anybody has mention who is doing all that, now that is called power!!

People don't realize that Pakistan Army has never really gone out of power, their finances, their control on policy has always been very strong, even when Political Party or popular leader rules, he has to submit himself to the policies and agenda set by Army...Has politicians ever defeated Army? - No, Army only go in the background by external pressure, then they control the policy and money from background...

On top of that, they are very popular in public, some how they have been able to blame everything on politicians and have to never face audit. There strategy is working so well. Soon they will run out of politicians to blame ;-)

@KB has a good post on the reason why Army is so Strong!!


Does Democracy really works in India?

This is a separate discussion, but I am not too excited about the state of India with 70 years of democratic rule. They have 700-900M poors, lifting them out of poverty is still as monumental task as it was 70 years ago. If you look at around the world, democracy really works when certain critical mass is in middle class, democracy is not helping build a middle class, how do you build a middle class??

Recent success of India and China was mainly driven by West needing cheap labor, nothing intrinsically happen in both cases. That was still not enough to lift them from poverty. They will find it more difficult in next 2-3 decades to haul poor along the way, when industrialization wipes out more jobs(mostly at lower level).

Democracy has not helped India to be a creative or innovative society, for that you need middle class, with Indian dominant culture of cast system that was even more difficult. Again democracy does not help build middle class, which maybe is the bed rock of prosperity and progress. Middle Class is expensive proposition for 1.3B population countries, it always will be. Even West is having difficult time keeping strong and vibrant middle class!!
 
Pakistan also needs more provinces.No province should hold more than 20% seats of NA.

This is the key, with the correct political climate this won't happen. Law needs to be made that states, no "state" should hold an X amount of seats in NA under any circumstances.
 
With all due respect to Pakistan and i hope my Pakistani friends spare me the bashing but democracy in Pakistan cant prosper with feudalism.Feudalism and democracy are poles asunder.The Land lords Jagirdars control huge swathes of lands and properties so the landless workers who dont even own land or house do they really own their votes?How much influence do these land lords have on voting?

Secondly i have seen on this forum a huge support for Army ruling.Though the trend is decreasing.Army cannot rule,its not their job.Pak Army holds power not through the gun but through the influence it has on the people.

Third Pakistan needs to be divided in more provinces.No province should hold more than 20% of total seats of NA.

Indians simply wont accept any semblance of dictatorship.Indira Gandhi learnt it the hard way.

I wish my Pakistani friends all the goodluck and pray they have functioning strong and vibrant democracy.

This.

We have too much concentration of power in one province

And Army is also Punjab-centric so there isnt any groundswell opposition among masses when it takes over
India isnt dominated by any one provice/state

And obv the civilian govts have rarely given any reason to 'long' for them
 
With all due respect to Pakistan and i hope my Pakistani friends spare me the bashing but democracy in Pakistan cant prosper with feudalism.Feudalism and democracy are poles asunder.The Land lords Jagirdars control huge swathes of lands and properties so the landless workers who dont even own land or house do they really own their votes?How much influence do these land lords have on voting?

Secondly i have seen on this forum a huge support for Army ruling.Though the trend is decreasing.Army cannot rule,its not their job.Pak Army holds power not through the gun but through the influence it has on the people.

Third Pakistan needs to be divided in more provinces.No province should hold more than 20% of total seats of NA.

Indians simply wont accept any semblance of dictatorship.Indira Gandhi learnt it the hard way.

I wish my Pakistani friends all the goodluck and pray they have functioning strong and vibrant democracy.

Brilliant post
 
With all due respect to Pakistan and i hope my Pakistani friends spare me the bashing but democracy in Pakistan cant prosper with feudalism.Feudalism and democracy are poles asunder.The Land lords Jagirdars control huge swathes of lands and properties so the landless workers who dont even own land or house do they really own their votes?How much influence do these land lords have on voting?

Secondly i have seen on this forum a huge support for Army ruling.Though the trend is decreasing.Army cannot rule,its not their job.Pak Army holds power not through the gun but through the influence it has on the people.

Third Pakistan needs to be divided in more provinces.No province should hold more than 20% of total seats of NA.

Indians simply wont accept any semblance of dictatorship.Indira Gandhi learnt it the hard way.

I wish my Pakistani friends all the goodluck and pray they have functioning strong and vibrant democracy.

perfectly described what is wrong with Pakistan's Political system.
 
With all due respect to Pakistan and i hope my Pakistani friends spare me the bashing but democracy in Pakistan cant prosper with feudalism.Feudalism and democracy are poles asunder.The Land lords Jagirdars control huge swathes of lands and properties so the landless workers who dont even own land or house do they really own their votes?How much influence do these land lords have on voting?

Secondly i have seen on this forum a huge support for Army ruling.Though the trend is decreasing.Army cannot rule,its not their job.Pak Army holds power not through the gun but through the influence it has on the people.

Third Pakistan needs to be divided in more provinces.No province should hold more than 20% of total seats of NA.

Indians simply wont accept any semblance of dictatorship.Indira Gandhi learnt it the hard way.

I wish my Pakistani friends all the goodluck and pray they have functioning strong and vibrant democracy.

Well said, but it would be a major task to break up feudalism in Pakistan at this stage, I don't know how India did it, but partition was probably the time to do it.
 
With all due respect to Pakistan and i hope my Pakistani friends spare me the bashing but democracy in Pakistan cant prosper with feudalism.Feudalism and democracy are poles asunder.The Land lords Jagirdars control huge swathes of lands and properties so the landless workers who dont even own land or house do they really own their votes?How much influence do these land lords have on voting?

Secondly i have seen on this forum a huge support for Army ruling.Though the trend is decreasing.Army cannot rule,its not their job.Pak Army holds power not through the gun but through the influence it has on the people.

Third Pakistan needs to be divided in more provinces.No province should hold more than 20% of total seats of NA.

Indians simply wont accept any semblance of dictatorship.Indira Gandhi learnt it the hard way.

I wish my Pakistani friends all the goodluck and pray they have functioning strong and vibrant democracy.
Condescending post.

As for the last sentence. No you don't. Don't lie to yourself.
 
Condescending post.

As for the last sentence. No you don't. Don't lie to yourself.

You don't think feudalism is a hindrance for Pakistan? Please elaborate, I'm assuming you don't agree with the concept rather than the poster who's suggesting it.
 
Well said, but it would be a major task to break up feudalism in Pakistan at this stage, I don't know how India did it, but partition was probably the time to do it.
How did we do it?

One fine day the govt passed the Zamindari abolition act.The Zamindars moved court as Right to Property was a fundamental right and the court upheld the rights of the Zamindars.The govt responded by removing right to property as a fundamental right.Then it followed with the land ceiling act.


It has to be a step by step process.But you are right,partition was the right time to do it.
 
Well said, but it would be a major task to break up feudalism in Pakistan at this stage, I don't know how India did it, but partition was probably the time to do it.

I am not sure feudalism is central problem. Phothar region(Rawalpindi Division) has most high officials of PAK Army, that region is know for recruitment in Army. Land in Phothar is not that fertile to be feudal centric. Feudalism is more centered around lower, Central Punjab and Sindh.

Not all of those areas have influence in Pakistani politics and Army. Sindhs have no influence beyond rular sindhi, which does not produce much anyway. Sarakis are limited to local areas as well. Central Punjab has as much industry as feudal land, feudal are industry owners as well...

Also, Pakistan was 80% rular and 20% urban 70 years ago, now ratio is 70/30(or maybe 2/3 : 1/3). This Urbanization has little effect, Problem remains the lack of strong middle class in both Urban or Rular areas. I am not sure if India has solved that problem either, they have very thin middle class, that's why I don't consider them as great example...Without middle class democracy does not work that well.

West created middle class by industrial revolutions, but that model may not work for China and India, scale is different and something that worked 200 years ago, not necessarily will work now. China has 300M Chinese in Middle class, but 1B poor too, ratio is still too high...

Capitalism has its own challenges, wealth concentrate in small segment of society, much the same way as feudalism...50% of the entire world's wealth is owned by 1% of world population.

One of the reason India got rid of feudals and we did not because Congress was party of Industrialist and Muslim League was party of Feudals (Nawabs, Wadarars, Sardars, Chaudarys etc)...Muslims had more land (1000 years of ruling India) then Industry...
 
A long as there are no more military coups in Pak I am good and happy. Some are saying that Nawaz has in reality been dismissed by the fauj who has been working behind the scenes with IK as their main man. Have to say that Indian politics have matured better then ours since independence. Having said that if the military influences the cleaning of Pak politics from behind the scenes then I have no problems with it.
 
I am not sure feudalism is central problem. Phothar region(Rawalpindi Division) has most high officials of PAK Army, that region is know for recruitment in Army. Land in Phothar is not that fertile to be feudal centric. Feudalism is more centered around lower, Central Punjab and Sindh.

Not all of those areas have influence in Pakistani politics and Army. Sindhs have no influence beyond rular sindhi, which does not produce much anyway. Sarakis are limited to local areas as well. Central Punjab has as much industry as feudal land, feudal are industry owners as well...

Also, Pakistan was 80% rular and 20% urban 70 years ago, now ratio is 70/30(or maybe 2/3 : 1/3). This Urbanization has little effect, Problem remains the lack of strong middle class in both Urban or Rular areas. I am not sure if India has solved that problem either, they have very thin middle class, that's why I don't consider them as great example...Without middle class democracy does not work that well.

West created middle class by industrial revolutions, but that model may not work for China and India, scale is different and something that worked 200 years ago, not necessarily will work now. China has 300M Chinese in Middle class, but 1B poor too, ratio is still too high...

Capitalism has its own challenges, wealth concentrate in small segment of society, much the same way as feudalism...50% of the entire world's wealth is owned by 1% of world population.

One of the reason India got rid of feudals and we did not because Congress was party of Industrialist and Muslim League was party of Feudals (Nawabs, Wadarars, Sardars, Chaudarys etc)...Muslims had more land (1000 years of ruling India) then Industry...

Your last paragraph is far from the truth.The high caste hindus held huge lands.Muslims had been out of power from Delhi for a long time before 1947 and anyways the Muslim majority parts were with Pakistan.

Except Nehru most other Congress leaders came from ordinary families and the Gandhian way of a frugal life was the congress principle.Even to this day politicians in India wont wear expensive western suits but stick to khadi kurta pyajama etc.So there was no way congress would have allowed any feudalism.

You are quite right that Muslim league was a party of feudal lords .The very concept of democracy in Pakistan was therefore compromised.
 
I would question the idea of an all-pervasive feudalism existing in Pakistan. I am reminded of Ayaz Amir’s comment, that ’Commentators who have never spent a night in a village or ever set eyes on a patwari, talk freely about waderas and feudal culture, ascribing all the country’s political problems to these two phenomena.’ Ayaz Amir was surely right when he argued that feudalism was a ‘most overworked concept in Pakistan’. In his colourful piece, written in 1996, Amir derides the ‘urban misconception…that anyone who looks like a hick, dresses like one, has a rural surname, curls his moustache and rides a Pajero…is necessarily a feudal.’

It is not always altogether clear what people mean by the term, for economically there is no question that Pakistan is a capitalist, not feudal country. When most people speak of feudalism they seem usually to be referring to the enormous power wielded by large landlords. Of the five criteria of feudalism that Hamza Alavi usefully identified, it is the “fusion of economic and political power at the point of production and a localised structure of power” that people have in mind. When it comes to democracy, it is usually stated that ‘feudals’ have exerted their local influence, which stems from their landholdings, to coerce votes. The rural magnates have been more interested in upholding local prestige (think Chaudhray Hashmat Khan from the PTV drama Waris) than with political ideology and a national agenda. They are also to a great extent held responsible for the personalised and factionalised nature of Pakistani politics which has weakened political parties.

While it is certainly true that many large landholders have behaved in such ways, it is also too easy to exaggerate the extent of their influence, especially in contemporary Pakistan. As Ayaz Amir has stated large landholdings are now confined mainly to some parts of interior Sindh and the southern belt in Punjab as well as some districts in western Punjab. Central Punjab - the most populous area that also returns most of the members of the national assembly within Punjab - is not an area associated with larger landlords. Pakistani economist, Mahmood Hasan Khan, who has written extensively on agriculture in Pakistan, reminds us that 96% of farms are below 10 hectares and that there has been a reduction in sharecropping tenancy and increased incidence of owner-operated farms. In 1960 there were 41.7% of tenant farms, whereas in 2010 this was only 11%. The growth in self-cultivation is important as tenant farming is more readily associated with feudalism. 78% of farm area is occupied by farm sizes below 50 acres according to the 2010 agricultural census.

Even where large landlords exists, it is also questionable to assume that they always get their way when it comes to elections. In 1970, the Peoples Party under the charismatic leadership of Zulfiqur Ali Bhutto – although himself from a wadero background – inspired countless individuals to vote with their conscience. In 1988, the likes of Pir Pagaro, Muhammad Khan Junejo and Ghulam Mustafa Jatoi lost their seats. Even as far back as 1946, in the provincial elections that paved the way for Pakistan, Ian Talbot has argued that “the growing groundswell of support for the League pressurized its Muslim landlord opponents to desert the Unionist Party.”
 
With all due respect to Pakistan and i hope my Pakistani friends spare me the bashing but democracy in Pakistan cant prosper with feudalism.Feudalism and democracy are poles asunder.The Land lords Jagirdars control huge swathes of lands and properties so the landless workers who dont even own land or house do they really own their votes?How much influence do these land lords have on voting?

Secondly i have seen on this forum a huge support for Army ruling.Though the trend is decreasing.Army cannot rule,its not their job.Pak Army holds power not through the gun but through the influence it has on the people.

Third Pakistan needs to be divided in more provinces.No province should hold more than 20% of total seats of NA.

Indians simply wont accept any semblance of dictatorship.Indira Gandhi learnt it the hard way.

I wish my Pakistani friends all the goodluck and pray they have functioning strong and vibrant democracy.

Beautifully Summed up ! Concentration of power in Punjab is the real problem here...
 
India is too big and diverse to have a coup, they wouldn't survive one.

Size doesn't matter. China is bigger than India, by geography as well as population. And yet is one of most dictatorial countries in the world: no freedom, no human rights, no opposition to the CPC - it's basically a humongous police state. Works well for them.
 
Size doesn't matter. China is bigger than India, by geography as well as population. And yet is one of most dictatorial countries in the world: no freedom, no human rights, no opposition to the CPC - it's basically a humongous police state. Works well for them.
I think diversity is the key here.China is mostly Han Chinese while India has more diversity than entire Europe combined.
 
[MENTION=142288]TQ89[/MENTION] anatol lieven has a really good book on Pakistan.

Also anything about Ian Talbot explains the reasons for the 'democracy deficit' in the regions that make u
up Pak today.

But now it seems Paks democracy is maturing

Thank you for the suggestion. The reason I am asking for this book is as you know much of what pakistani's living in pakistan know about our history is due to social studies books and we are discouraged from asking questions regarding the logic behind some decisions or changes by the past rulers in schools as well as society in general.

That is the reason most people hold the same fantasical ideas & false myths they read in grade 5-8 and cling onto it for dear life and never accept the truth even when confronted with cold hard facts. If you are lucky to have a knowledegable person in your circle, he unfortunately will be heavily biased towards the party abd he supports and once again not provide you the complete truth.

I have seen many educated people support PP & N league to this day & when asked about their views on politics, all they can resort despite their intelligence is mud slinging. Same goes for those educated people who support army, talk logic with them, question the army's actions and you are traitor. I have friends and uncles in both category.

I wanna know why the country is the way it is, is everything we heard about the 40's, 50's. 60's true or just propaganda?
Why & how did the army become so strong.
Why couldn't bhutto achieve the things he promised?
Why is he adore so much if he couldn't deliver?
Was Bhutto or central punjab elite responsible for our rift with east pakistan?
Was the army partially responsible for rift with east pakistan?
What were our politicians doing in the first 8 years of our country that they couldn't build constitution?
Is this why our people gave so many lives in partition so that the would see their country erode itself in its first decade and then give the perfect excuse to army to rule the country?
Was ayub a visionary or was he an opportunist?
Same questions for Zia?
Why did Zia have to islamize everything when the last person that should talk about islam in pakistan are these bloodthirsty money-hungry rulers?
Why did the people of that time buy his ideas when in fact their own interpretation and implementation of Islam in their daily lives is very questionable?
Our foreign relations mess with US?
Balochistan Problems?
Kashmir issues?

These are just some of the doubts i have regarding the past & many more. Because we didn't become who we are in this millenia without passing through the decades of 50's-80's. And we still have to suffer at the hands same rulers that have their beginning in that period.

I think it is important for me to try to understand what happened back then to understand the current political scenario of Pak & also not fill my head with biased BS & lies for the sake of patriotism.
 
How did we do it?

One fine day the govt passed the Zamindari abolition act.The Zamindars moved court as Right to Property was a fundamental right and the court upheld the rights of the Zamindars.The govt responded by removing right to property as a fundamental right.Then it followed with the land ceiling act.


It has to be a step by step process.But you are right,partition was the right time to do it.

I don't think in India it happened with partition, there was "bhoodan" movement by Vinoba Bhave in late 60's early 70's, in which a lot of jagirdars willingly gave up their land.
 
[MENTION=142288]TQ89[/MENTION] Yeah thats why ive read up more on the academic literature on Pakistan and its creation. to give me a better perspective.
http://pdfbooksfree.pk/pakistan-a-hard-country-by-anatol-lieven/

this is a pdf of the anatol lieven book. Called Pakistan a Hard Country. Have a read see how u find it.

obvs parents n grandparents n teachers will have a very biased state driven narrative about the origins of Pakistan because of the way successive govts have legitimised this narrative.
 
I think there are two reasons:
1)Congress,unlike Muslim League,during British rule had participated actively in politics and run the government after winning 1937 elections.Congress had experience of running a country.Muslim League lacked this experience which allowed military to interfere in politics.This did not happen in India after independence.
2)Second reason is concentration of power among Punjabi based elite.This Punjabi elite includes politicians as well as military men.This elite has its own interests.For example.majority of CPEC projects are based in Punjab and a specific route is preferred over other routes.This has been planned by Punjab based politicians and army(Punjabi elite.)
 
I don't think in India it happened with partition, there was "bhoodan" movement by Vinoba Bhave in late 60's early 70's, in which a lot of jagirdars willingly gave up their land.

The Zamindari abolition act was passed in 1949.The different land ceiling acts in 1950s.

Bhoodan movement was a more a social movement.
 
Your last paragraph is far from the truth.The high caste hindus held huge lands.Muslims had been out of power from Delhi for a long time before 1947 and anyways the Muslim majority parts were with Pakistan.

Except Nehru most other Congress leaders came from ordinary families and the Gandhian way of a frugal life was the congress principle.Even to this day politicians in India wont wear expensive western suits but stick to khadi kurta pyajama etc.So there was no way congress would have allowed any feudalism.

You are quite right that Muslim league was a party of feudal lords .The very concept of democracy in Pakistan was therefore compromised.

It came out wrong, What I meant to say, Upper Class of Muslims(among themselves) was heavily invested in lands as oppose to Industries, hence Muslim League was dominated(even created) by feudal...

Congress had leftist and Industrialist, feudal were not that big of the faction. India later on lean towards Russian block, feudal reforms were kind of inevitable...
 
We lost our democratic intellectuals too soon after the formation of Pakistan. Jinnah and Liaqat Ali Khan died in the first 5 years. Had Jinnah lived 10 years more we would be a different country.

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