Why doesn't Hashim Amla have peer reputation on a similar level to Virat Kohli and AB de Villiers?

[Ab Fan]

Smith is too far behind other top batsmen in World. Cant recall when was last time he won game for Aussies on his own. He is probably 4th best batsman in his team after Warner, Finch, and Stoinis( heck Id even place Maxi ahead of him)
So, how is this sentence ‘not behind’ worlds top batsmen makes any sense?

He is legit 3 levels behind AB, Warner, Kohli. He is in same league as Rahane the Odis batsman, which doesnt say much. His WC performance was great but it was overall team performance and also in Semis against India, it was Maxi show that gave them huge total. His WC performance is quite overrated. He didnt won any games on his own nor does he has potential too.

Ofc in no world does Munaf is even closed to Waqar let alone better.

Now you are discrediting him by comparing with Rahane. He averages 42 in odis and his peak years are still ahead. Someone like Guptill averages only 43.

Smith has not only performed in WC knockouts in his career.

His 164 vs NZ was a really top quality inning.

http://www.howstat.com/cricket/Statistics/Matches/MatchScorecard_ODI.asp?MatchCode=3966

He has also chased down a 300+ total once against India by smashing a brilliant 149.

http://www.howstat.com/cricket/Statistics/Matches/MatchScorecard_ODI.asp?MatchCode=3874

And really, that semi match you definitely cant take credit from him. Maxi scored what?? 23 runs off 14 balls? Johnson scored 28 off 9 balls but are these innings anything in front of Smith 105 of 93 balls ?

Also, Aus could have lost the Quarter final if not for Smith inning again. Wahab was bowling at its peak( the only one or two moment where he bowled great).

Definitely a very good odi batsmen and better than anyone from his team bar Warner. No questions on that. Not even too far behind him.

Clearly,it also proves that there was no hypocrisy in my previous posts.

 

[Ab Fan]

Finch averages 38 in odis and has improved only recently in last two years.

Some posters are mentioning names that dont even have better stats than Smith.

Rahane averages what? 35?

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Finch averages 38 in odis and has improved only recently in last two years.

Some posters are mentioning names that dont even have better stats than Smith.

Rahane averages what? 35?

Finch's average is lower because he's an opener. His RPI is higher than Smith, and Finch also has better conversion rate.

 

[Tusker]

Go ahead and make a thread on it.

Lee, Jayasuriya and de Silva are ODI ATGs and are acknowledged by fans. Bracken isn't though. Many would pick Jayasuriya and de Silva over AB too in PP. Even you can check the thread on Sanath vs AB in odis and you will get the answer there itself.

Nobody who understands ODI Cricket considers Lee, Jaya, Silva , Bracken as ODI Greats never mind ATGs. Please tell me you are joking when you say Jayasuriya > Kohli / ABD !!

Here is Bracken Vs Waqar in WC and CT matches :

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...late=results;trophy=12;trophy=44;type=bowling

(BTW the gap widens even more in favor of Bracken if you take out associate nations )

So according to your theory Bracken > Waqar ??

 

[giri26]

Nobody who understands ODI Cricket considers Lee, Jaya, Silva , Bracken as ODI Greats never mind ATGs. Please tell me you are joking when you say Jayasuriya > Kohli / ABD !!

Here is Bracken Vs Waqar in WC and CT matches :

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...late=results;trophy=12;trophy=44;type=bowling

(BTW the gap widens even more in favor of Bracken if you take out associate nations )

So according to your theory Bracken > Waqar ??

Are you serious when you say Brett Lee is not a ODI ATG? 380 wickets at 23 and 9 five wicket hauls? He is for sure a ODI ATG. Jaya as well, his average doesn't do justice to the impact he created in world cricket. Sometimes you need to look past the averages. I am not here to compare anyone and say someone in better than the other as I don't believe in comparisons but for sure Lee and Jayasuriya are ODI legends and ATG players.

 

[Tusker]

Are you serious when you say Brett Lee is not a ODI ATG? 380 wickets at 23 and 9 five wicket hauls? He is for sure a ODI ATG. Jaya as well, his average doesn't do justice to the impact he created in world cricket. Sometimes you need to look past the averages. I am not here to compare anyone and say someone in better than the other as I don't believe in comparisons but for sure Lee and Jayasuriya are ODI legends and ATG players.

These ratings of ATGs are thrown around quite liberally these days ... but sorry these tags sit better on the likes of Waz, Tendulkar, Waqar, McGrath , Warne etc. Do you seriously believe that those 2 players deserve to be amongst these 5 ? Seriously ?

 

[giri26]

These ratings of ATGs are thrown around quite liberally these days ... but sorry these tags sit better on the likes of Waz, Tendulkar, Waqar, McGrath , Warne etc. Do you seriously believe that those 2 players deserve to be amongst these 5 ? Seriously ?

Brett Lee surely does in ODI. He was a average Test player though.The guy was instrumental in Aussies winning 2003 WC, bowled a brilliant spell in the semi-finals defending a low total.

 

[Buffet]

These ratings of ATGs are thrown around quite liberally these days ... but sorry these tags sit better on the likes of Waz, Tendulkar, Waqar, McGrath , Warne etc. Do you seriously believe that those 2 players deserve to be amongst these 5 ? Seriously ?

Waqar in ODI? I don't think he got even close to an ATG career.

 

[Tusker]

Waqar in ODI? I don't think he got even close to an ATG career.

3rd highest Wkt taker in ODIs , Most 5 fers. Was just a great ODI bowler especially before injury.

 

[Itachi]

Jayasuria revolutionized odi cricket. That alone makes him an odi great.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Are you serious when you say Brett Lee is not a ODI ATG? 380 wickets at 23 and 9 five wicket hauls? He is for sure a ODI ATG. Jaya as well, his average doesn't do justice to the impact he created in world cricket. Sometimes you need to look past the averages. I am not here to compare anyone and say someone in better than the other as I don't believe in comparisons but for sure Lee and Jayasuriya are ODI legends and ATG players.

I am not sure how many remembers 2003 world cup final. India's main reason for opting to field first was Brett Lee who was in red hot form during the world cup. They were afraid of top order collapse against Lee. He was one of the main reason for their success in 2003 campaign.

 

[Ab Fan]

Nobody who understands ODI Cricket considers Lee, Jaya, Silva , Bracken as ODI Greats never mind ATGs. Please tell me you are joking when you say Jayasuriya > Kohli / ABD !!

Here is Bracken Vs Waqar in WC and CT matches :

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...late=results;trophy=12;trophy=44;type=bowling

(BTW the gap widens even more in favor of Bracken if you take out associate nations )

So according to your theory Bracken > Waqar ??

Bracken is not in same league as Waqar in odis.

Lee is an ODI ATG and so is Jayasuriya. I personally won't pick Sanath over AB/Kohli but some might pick him over AB.

Waqar is also an ATG but not in top5.

 

[Mamoon]

Both Jayasuriya and Lee are ODI ATGs. Jayasuriya is arguably the second greatest opener of all time along with Gilchrist, and only a handful of bowlers have been better than Lee in this format.

 

[AMSS]

Lee's status as the greatest ODI pacer is beyond pale.

Gilchrist and Jayasurya are ODI greats but not on account of their batting exploits alone. They were complete ODI packages due to other skillsets they brought to the table. Jayasurya, of course, gets additional credit for properly revolutionizing the opener's job description. Although, I do think Sachin himself was no less destructive in terms of SR compared to Jayasurya.

 

[AMSS]

Did a little bit of Statsguru to confirm my hunch re aggressive openers of the 90s.



Sachin marginally slower than Gilly and Jayasurya but of course with a vastly superior average.

 

[shariqnoor]

Both Jayasuriya and Lee are ODI ATGs. Jayasuriya is arguably the second greatest opener of all time along with Gilchrist, and only a handful of bowlers have been better than Lee in this format.

What??? Jayasuriya as the second greatest ODI opener of all time. I can list 5 more openers who are better than Jayasuriya.

1. Tendulkar
2. Mark Waugh
3. Ganguly
4. Herschelle Gibbs
5. Matthew Hayden

Even the recent ones like Shikhar Dhawan and David Warner are better than the ultimate Asia Cup bully Jayasuriya. And had Brian Lara continued as an opener, he would've been one of the best.

 

[Tusker]

Bracken is not in same league as Waqar in odis.
.

But Waqar has nowhere near the same performances as Bracken in big matches ... isnt that what you were trying to argue ?

 

[Tusker]

Jayasuria revolutionized odi cricket. That alone makes him an odi great.

Copied Mark Greatbatch's strategy from the 1992 WC . In any case Tendulkar was a far better Opener in the same time period as Jaya with a far better avg.

 

[Ab Fan]

But Waqar has nowhere near the same performances as Bracken in big matches ... isnt that what you were trying to argue ?

My argument was if two players are of same stature in that format, then WC plays the huge role.

Hence, Smith who has below average stats is still a very good odi player for me.

 

[Tusker]

My argument was if two players are of same stature in that format, then WC plays the huge role.

Hence, Smith who has below average stats is still a very good odi player for me.

how do you decide this stature (without using Worldcup performances) in the case of Kohli vs Smith ?

 

[Tusker]

My argument was if two players are of same stature in that format, then WC plays the huge role.

Hence, Smith who has below average stats is still a very good odi player for me.

how do you decide this stature (without using Worldcup performances) in the case of Kohli vs Smith ?

just to be clear we are ONLY talking ODI's.

Here is the stats:

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...mplate=results;tournament_type=2;type=batting

An Avg of 62 for Kohli vs Avg of 37 for Smith in bilaterals which are the majority of ODI's

It becomes a laughable comparison when we include runs, Strike Rates, 100s and 50s.

 

[AMSS]

Copied Mark Greatbatch's strategy from the 1992 WC . In any case Tendulkar was a far better Opener in the same time period as Jaya with a far better avg.

Copy? Lol. It's all about execution. Jayasuriya executed it better and longer, and that is all that matters. And so what if Tendulkar was a better opener than Jayasurya? Does it somehow take away Jayasuriya's claim as an ATG opener? Perverse logic.

 

[Tusker]

Copy? Lol. It's all about execution. Jayasuriya executed it better and longer, and that is all that matters.

If execution matters more then it has to be Tendulkar

And so what if Tendulkar was a better opener than Jayasurya? Does it somehow take away Jayasuriya's claim as an ATG opener? Perverse logic.

extending that logic lets include a few other openers in the ATG category lol The whole point of ATG is that the bar is very high.

 

[Ab Fan]

how do you decide this stature (without using Worldcup performances) in the case of Kohli vs Smith ?

In odis Kohli is at a different stature to Smith no comparison there absolutely. This is why I always have said in past and will say now too that I consider Kohli an ATG and he will become a GOAT till he retires in odis.

In my all posts, I have also said Smith is a very good odi batsmen.

I also said, Smith is no Kohli or AB in odis but not too far behind other odi batters of the generation.

Now you can tell me my which post hurt you ? Make sure you highlight that in the thread.

 

[Buffet]

3rd highest Wkt taker in ODIs , Most 5 fers. Was just a great ODI bowler especially before injury.

His ODI career gets too much hype due to his peak in Test. He was very expensive bowler and SR of 30 didn't really compensate for that. 1.6 wickets each match and getting plenty of sticks.

If you look at his ranking then he was in the top 10 for just couple of years in his long career. No ATG bowler has that kind of trajectory. ATG bowler in the test format, but not in the ODI format.

 

[DeadBall]

Amla has so less charisma that even his thread turned into Smith vs kohli.

Should have been /thread.