Why have England failed to produce ATGs and elite players?

[Toaster]

I have always found it strange that England, a country that has so much resources and facilities, has failed to produce a single ATG/Elite player since the 1960s. Almost all of their greats are from the pre 1960s era, a time in which international cricket was at its infancy with a handful of competitive teams. After 1960s, their production line seems to have dried. True, they have produced players with borderline cases of greatness or who were as good as ATGs for a few years, like Botham, Pietersen, Anderson,Cook but none of them are regarded as high as SRT, Ponting, Murali, Warne, Marshall, Ambrose, Waqar, Mcgrath, Kohli and fell short of greatness due to some reason or other. Among the present generation, only Joe Root looks like a would-be ATG case but it remains to be seen whether he ends up as an elite player. In fact, England has produced a generation of boring players with zero flair( Kp and flintoff being an exception). But the lack of ATG players in their team has not prevented England from achieving great results in test cricket as they relied on discipline and 'the sum is greater than the parts' theory.

How does one explain this phenomenon? For a country like England which hastop class facilities and County Cricket, this is really surprising.

 

[Buffet]

I have always found it strange that England, a country that has so much resources and facilities, has failed to produce a single ATG/Elite player since the 1960s. Almost all of their greats are from the pre 1960s era, a time in which international cricket was at its infancy with a handful of competitive teams. After 1960s, their production line seems to have dried. True, they have produced players with borderline cases of greatness or who were as good as ATGs for a few years, like Botham, Pietersen, Anderson,Cook but none of them are regarded as high as SRT, Ponting, Murali, Warne, Marshall, Ambrose, Waqar, Mcgrath, Kohli and fell short of greatness due to some reason or other. Among the present generation, only Joe Root looks like a would-be ATG case but it remains to be seen whether he ends up as an elite player. In fact, England has produced a generation of boring players with zero flair( Kp and flintoff being an exception). But the lack of ATG players in their team has not prevented England from achieving great results in test cricket as they relied on discipline and 'the sum is greater than the parts' theory.

How does one explain this phenomenon? For a country like England which hastop class facilities and County Cricket, this is really surprising.

Eng produced many ATGs when not many countries were playing cricket. It stopped producing ATGs when others started playing cricket. That's why I am skeptical of all those yesteryear's ATG stats.

 

[Toaster]

Eng produced many ATGs when not many countries were playing cricket. It stopped producing ATGs when others started playing cricket. That's why I am skeptical of all those yesteryear's ATG stats.

Asking purely out of curiosity, what do you think is the reason behind this phenomenon?

 

[Ab Fan]

They have produced many country greats in last 10 years though.

Pieterson
Cook
Broad
Anderson
Swann
Root
Stokes

 

[Toaster]

They have produced many country greats in last 10 years though.

Pieterson
Cook
Broad
Anderson
Swann
Root
Stokes

I am well aware of the players you mentioned but all of them fall short of the ATG category due to some reason or other.

 

[R0H1T]

Asking purely out of curiosity, what do you think is the reason behind this phenomenon?

#donisnotGOAT

 

[cricketjoshila]

I have always found it strange that England, a country that has so much resources and facilities, has failed to produce a single ATG/Elite player since the 1960s. Almost all of their greats are from the pre 1960s era, a time in which international cricket was at its infancy with a handful of competitive teams. After 1960s, their production line seems to have dried. True, they have produced players with borderline cases of greatness or who were as good as ATGs for a few years, like Botham, Pietersen, Anderson,Cook but none of them are regarded as high as SRT, Ponting, Murali, Warne, Marshall, Ambrose, Waqar, Mcgrath, Kohli and fell short of greatness due to some reason or other. Among the present generation, only Joe Root looks like a would-be ATG case but it remains to be seen whether he ends up as an elite player. In fact, England has produced a generation of boring players with zero flair( Kp and flintoff being an exception). But the lack of ATG players in their team has not prevented England from achieving great results in test cricket as they relied on discipline and 'the sum is greater than the parts' theory.

How does one explain this phenomenon? For a country like England which hastop class facilities and County Cricket, this is really surprising.

English media losing influence.

 

[Buffet]

Asking purely out of curiosity, what do you think is the reason behind this phenomenon?

Many ATG's of yesteryear would have been a just a solid players with more competition. Cricket is also a declining sports in Eng.

 

[babajee]

England mai tailunt nahi hai

 

[R0H1T]

England mai tailunt nahi hai

Imported talent to hai #KP

 

[austerlitz]

English players are too orthodox in their approach.They produce upto very good but not ATG.
Only ATG would be botham and underwood with boycott,cook,anderson,gooch,pietersen being borderline.

Also i think english conditions hinder their ability against bounce,and also spin..bowlers become too dependant on swing.

 

[Varun]

They get knighthoods and MBEs after a trivial home series vs Australia, little wonder they don't want to have 15+ year careers in Tests and ODIs against the cricketing world at large, like Kallis/Tendulkar/Ponting/Lara etc.

 

[James]

Mainly cultural reasons. A lot of British sporting talent is attracted to football and rugby first. Also there is massive social bias in top level English cricket towards the old boy’s networks, and the private school system in particular which only educates 7% of British children - very few English cricketers of the recent past attended a state-funded school.

 

[Rana]

The concept of English ATG is measured by the performance during an Ashes tour. The English players get paid enough to not have to play upto the age of 40 as players from other countries. You will notice most of their best players will retire at the age of 33-34 and done with Domestic cricket also. These are players who have 'been there, done that', which means they have all played 2-3 ashes series having won at least one of those series. These players (besides cook and Anderson) do not play for records. Plus even those that have the prolific statistics have something about their game that suggests they are weak at a particular aspect of the game, be it conditions, venues or certain bowlers etc.

 

[Big Mac]

The idea that Botham and Cook aren't all time greats is pretty silly.

 

[Rana]

Another thing I would like to add...

Most of these English players have come through a system where playing cricket is a privilege instead of a passion, necessity. This is starkly in contrast with someone like Sachin Tendulkar or Wasim Akram (Bonafide ATGs), players who have had to struggle day and night to get noticed first and then kept up the tenacity due to their initial struggles to actually make it to the highest level. Yes, great English players have struggled to reach at that level, but the fact that ATGs such as the ones mentioned had to fight harder for their goals have indeed played a great role in maintaining their mental composure at this level

 

[jnaveen1980]

KP would have been one albeit he is a South African. Botham is one. Gower is by far my favorite English player. But ATG has to be defined clearly first before we decide who is ATG who is not.

 

[Anik Sharma]

Many great England players who I think had the talent and Potential to be ATGs debuted late or retired early or both. Ex - Strauss, Swann, Peterson.

 

[Cric1234]

Root might end up as ATG Cook Pieterson came close but didn't kick on to be ATGs other decent batsmen have come from England.
Australia have produced more talented ATG batsmen in the last 40 years Ponting Hayden Chappell possibly Gilchrist Waugh Border when they only had 1 pre 1960s Bradman otherwise English batsmen were dominant how good were they if not ATG in modern day terms then there isn't 1 in the history of English cricket.

 

[Toaster]

Many great England players who I think had the talent and Potential to be ATGs debuted late or retired early or both. Ex - Strauss, Swann, Peterson.

Sums of the failure of ECB to handle mercurial and prodigious talents.

 

[Robert]

I have always found it strange that England, a country that has so much resources and facilities, has failed to produce a single ATG/Elite player since the 1960s. Almost all of their greats are from the pre 1960s era, a time in which international cricket was at its infancy with a handful of competitive teams. After 1960s, their production line seems to have dried. True, they have produced players with borderline cases of greatness or who were as good as ATGs for a few years, like Botham, Pietersen, Anderson,Cook but none of them are regarded as high as SRT, Ponting, Murali, Warne, Marshall, Ambrose, Waqar, Mcgrath, Kohli and fell short of greatness due to some reason or other.

I’d pick Botham ahead of most of those guys. Imagine a more complete batsman than Stokes with Anderson’s bowling and a champion slip catcher.

But the County Championship became a breeding ground of mediocrity decades ago. It s too easy for a County pro to play for ten years without being international standard.

If they cut the number of teams down to ten or better still six, the standard of competition will go up.

 

[Robert]

Root might end up as ATG Cook Pieterson came close but didn't kick on to be ATGs other decent batsmen have come from England.
Australia have produced more talented ATG batsmen in the last 40 years Ponting Hayden Chappell possibly Gilchrist Waugh Border when they only had 1 pre 1960s Bradman otherwise English batsmen were dominant how good were they if not ATG in modern day terms then there isn't 1 in the history of English cricket.

They also had Trumper, Ponsford, McCabe, Morris, Hassett, Harvey and Simpson.

 

[Cric1234]

They also had Trumper, Ponsford, McCabe, Morris, Hassett, Harvey and Simpson.

They were decent batsmen but not great batsmen Bradman averaged 100 but the rest of the Aussie batsmen averaged sub 50.
You'd have to go back to Hammond to find the best ever English batsman possibly he's not even mentioned in best ever lists it's all about era one guy is focused on and bringing his average down to modern day greats that others are forgotten about Hammond suffers due to this.

 

[giri26]

They were decent batsmen but not great batsmen Bradman averaged 100 but the rest of the Aussie batsmen averaged sub 50.
You'd have to go back to Hammond to find the best ever English batsman possibly he's not even mentioned in best ever lists it's all about era one guy is focused on and bringing his average down to modern day greats that others are forgotten about Hammond suffers due to this.

I think definition of great needs to be adjusted according to the era. There weren't many who averaged in 50's in 80's and 90's. I can just pull just 3 names from top of my head in the 80's Sunil, Viv and Miandad. I am probably missing someone. Even in the 90's only Waugh, Sachin and Lara averaged in 50's. So would you name someone who averaged 45+ as great in the 80's? I would say so. The three mentioned above were ATG's and the others were greats for their side. Since the millennium we have lots of people averaging in the 50's so that has become benchmark for greats. Should not be applied to all eras.

 

[Toaster]

I think definition of great needs to be adjusted according to the era. There weren't many who averaged in 50's in 80's and 90's. I can just pull just 3 names from top of my head in the 80's Sunil, Viv and Miandad. I am probably missing someone. Even in the 90's only Waugh, Sachin and Lara averaged in 50's. So would you name someone who averaged 45+ as great in the 80's? I would say so. The three mentioned above were ATG's and the others were greats for their side. Since the millennium we have lots of people averaging in the 50's so that has become benchmark for greats. Should not be applied to all eras.

The English guys have never been that grrat statiscally since the 1960s. Apparently, none of their batsman averages above 50 in tests starting from that period, barring Joe Root. Their bowlers have also failed to average less than 25 in tests.

 

[cricketjoshila]

The last ATG from England Was Ian Botham.

 

[Robert]

They were decent batsmen but not great batsmen Bradman averaged 100 but the rest of the Aussie batsmen averaged sub 50.

They were great all right. But Bradman was beyond anyone else, a superman.

 

[wrongun]

I think definition of great needs to be adjusted according to the era. There weren't many who averaged in 50's in 80's and 90's. I can just pull just 3 names from top of my head in the 80's Sunil, Viv and Miandad. I am probably missing someone. Even in the 90's only Waugh, Sachin and Lara averaged in 50's. So would you name someone who averaged 45+ as great in the 80's? I would say so. The three mentioned above were ATG's and the others were greats for their side. Since the millennium we have lots of people averaging in the 50's so that has become benchmark for greats. Should not be applied to all eras.

I would lose my citizenship if I didn't remind you that Allan Border averaged 50 in that very period (including 50avg IN the WI).

 

[Convict]

They don't drop players.

Australia's good batsmen throughout history generally all got recognises young, got selected and performed decently and then got dropped to sort out their games/get the kick up the bum when they inevitably started to fail. This has pretty much been the case with all of our great batsman bar people like Hussey who had to work for over a decade just to get a chance.

What this does is builds character because its not easy and forces them to fix errors in their game that were exposed. It is hard to go from the limelight to obscurity.
And generally they all come back as completed players.

If Renshaw were playing for England he wouldn't have been dropped for this series due to his Age and previous precord.

On the other hand if you are rated and perform okay it seems to be pretty hard to get dropped from England so players can cruise in a safety zone of averaging in the low 40s for their entire career.

 

[wrongun]

They don't drop players.

Australia's good batsmen throughout history generally all got recognises young, got selected and performed decently and then got dropped to sort out their games/get the kick up the bum when they inevitably started to fail. This has pretty much been the case with all of our great batsman bar people like Hussey who had to work for over a decade just to get a chance.

What this does is builds character because its not easy and forces them to fix errors in their game that were exposed. It is hard to go from the limelight to obscurity.
And generally they all come back as completed players.

If Renshaw were playing for England he wouldn't have been dropped for this series due to his Age and previous precord.

On the other hand if you are rated and perform okay it seems to be pretty hard to get dropped from England so players can cruise in a safety zone of averaging in the low 40s for their entire career.

I think you've hit it on the head. Bradman, Ponting, Waugh, Clarke, Warne, Hayden, Langer- the list goes on & on all dropped early on. Perhaps on Hussey & Gilly as exceptions- both picked fairly late.

 

[Ocelot]

Mainly cultural reasons. A lot of British sporting talent is attracted to football and rugby first. Also there is massive social bias in top level English cricket towards the old boy’s networks, and the private school system in particular which only educates 7% of British children - very few English cricketers of the recent past attended a state-funded school.

But England's performance in football is abysmal at best, with never winning anything other than 1966 World Cup. They got knocked out of the group stages in 2014 WC. Even the 'golden generation' star-studded team of Beckham, Owen, Gerrard, Scholes, Lampard didn't won anything of note.

 

[Ab Fan]

Botham is a definite ATG.

No one else since Botham.

Since then

Gooch
KP
Stewart
Cook
Gower
Root

All these missed out of ATG. Root is very young. So dont know where to place him.

 

[Robert]

They don't drop players.

Yeah, they do. Bairstow was dropped, as was Root, and Stokes, and Vince, and Hameed, and Anderson, and Swann. Going back, Gooch and Gower were dropped too.

Currently you have a selector who is not looking hard enough round the Counties. Uncle Boyks says there are better players in the Lions and I agree.

 

[giri26]

I would lose my citizenship if I didn't remind you that Allan Border averaged 50 in that very period (including 50avg IN the WI).

yup I knew I was missing someone, that's the reason I mentioned that in my post. Border obviously was a brilliant player and one of the greatest Aussie captain ever.

 

[James]

Is it possible that Boycott could be an ATG? His record as an opener in a much tougher batting era is pretty incredible.

 

[ExpressPacer]

The English aren't obsessed with cricket similar to Asians. Its a summer sport for most of the kids and with time, people are losing interest in the elitist sport.

 

[Anik Sharma]

The English aren't obsessed with cricket similar to Asians. Its a summer sport for most of the kids and with time, people are losing interest in the elitist sport.

Australia(Yeah cricket is more popular there compared to England but still not like the craze in Asia and also a cery low population) and NZ says otherwise.


Your logic doesn't make sense because even in football England don't have many ATGs (compared to South American and other European countries).

 

[Ab Fan]

Is it possible that Boycott could be an ATG? His record as an opener in a much tougher batting era is pretty incredible.

No. He had only one gear i.e. ultra defensive and cared a lot about his average.

Gooch> Boycott!

 

[Robert]

Is it possible that Boycott could be an ATG? His record as an opener in a much tougher batting era is pretty incredible.

Pretty close. He and Gooch are certainly ahead of Cook. I would put Stewart in the Boycott-Gooch class too.

 

[Tusker]

I’d pick Botham ahead of most of those guys. Imagine a more complete batsman than Stokes with Anderson’s bowling and a champion slip catcher.

They were great all right. But Bradman was beyond anyone else, a superman.

Here we go again with the OTT Hyperbole of past players. Jimmy anderson at age 35 is twice the bowler that Ian Botham ever was and lets not even get into things like fitness and professionalism. Unlikely that Botham ever bowled a single ball in his entire career that clocked anywhere close to 140K's. Anderson in his prime would push upto 145Ks.

 

[Outswinger]

Reason 1: County cricket and wickets not conducive to producing genuinely quick all-terrain fast bowlers
Reason 2: Batsman not brought up bouncy, fast wickets. Tend to be less good in Australia/South Africa conditions

I guess these are the reasons why most true cricketing greats come from Australia or South Africa. Especially in the last 20years.

 

[Outswinger]

Is it possible that Boycott could be an ATG? His record as an opener in a much tougher batting era is pretty incredible.

Definitely an ATG

 

[Abdullah719]

Here we go again with the OTT Hyperbole of past players. Jimmy anderson at age 35 is twice the bowler that Ian Botham ever was and lets not even get into things like fitness and professionalism. Unlikely that Botham ever bowled a single ball in his entire career that clocked anywhere close to 140K's. Anderson in his prime would push upto 145Ks.

When exactly is/was Anderson's 'prime'? Because I think he's bowling as well now as he ever has, and is probably not clocking beyond 135k these days.

 

[Tusker]

When exactly is/was Anderson's 'prime'? Because I think he's bowling as well now as he ever has, and is probably not clocking beyond 135k these days.

around 2010-2014. Agreed and he has predominantly been a upper 130Ks bowler but he could crank it up when needed.

 

[Chief Destroyer]

They play too much cricket to maintain ATG standards. Also have a soft culture and are too easily satisfied.

 

[Robert]

Here we go again with the OTT Hyperbole of past players. Jimmy anderson at age 35 is twice the bowler that Ian Botham ever was and lets not even get into things like fitness and professionalism. Unlikely that Botham ever bowled a single ball in his entire career that clocked anywhere close to 140K's. Anderson in his prime would push upto 145Ks.

Speed schmeed. When did Anderson take thirteen wickets in a test match in India (and score a century too)?

Incidentally Botham in the mid-eighties reinvented himself as a quickish bowler. While he was not fast in the Marshall sense, he was distinctly sharp. He always got lift off the deck too. Over his career he got a lot of wickets with the bouncer.

Oh, but you don’t think batters like Richards, Gavaskar, Chappell, Border, Miandad were any good either do you?

 

[GoUgandaCranes]

Very few countries produce ATG and elite cricketers and that's the reality of our sport. England have a blueprint for producing a certain kind of cricketer.



1. For Bowlers: Tall preferably over 6 3' ala Harmison, Broad, Anderson, Simon Jones, Caddick, Bob Willis etc.
2. For batters: Technically correct batsmen ala Cook, Gooch, Atherton, Nasser etc.
3. An all-rounder who bats and bowls a bit ala collingwood, holliakes, ealham, defreites, ravi bopara etc.

They rarely diverge from that and when you see country cricket, it's not hard to see why that is so. The pitches aid medium pace bowling and wickets aren't that hard to get if you just put it in the channel. The batsmen too know that they need to have a tight defensive technique and continue to play with upright elbows and bringing the bat and pad together.

The advent of t20 cricket has helped them produce batsmen who are different to the grain and that is good for the game over all.

The also have produced quality players like Flintoff, Root, and now Stokes along with some other divergent players.

That said, during the last 20 years, not many countries have produced an ATG. India have Kohli and if he does well overseas maybe Pujara. Sri Lanka, Pakistan, West Indies have produced literally no cricketer that comes to mind immediately. Australia has Smith and maybe Warner and South Africa have Steyn and that's about it.

The elite players are many but England have produced plenty of elite players during this time.

 

[Toaster]

Very few countries produce ATG and elite cricketers and that's the reality of our sport. England have a blueprint for producing a certain kind of cricketer.



1. For Bowlers: Tall preferably over 6 3' ala Harmison, Broad, Anderson, Simon Jones, Caddick, Bob Willis etc.
2. For batters: Technically correct batsmen ala Cook, Gooch, Atherton, Nasser etc.
3. An all-rounder who bats and bowls a bit ala collingwood, holliakes, ealham, defreites, ravi bopara etc.

They rarely diverge from that and when you see country cricket, it's not hard to see why that is so. The pitches aid medium pace bowling and wickets aren't that hard to get if you just put it in the channel. The batsmen too know that they need to have a tight defensive technique and continue to play with upright elbows and bringing the bat and pad together.

The advent of t20 cricket has helped them produce batsmen who are different to the grain and that is good for the game over all.

The also have produced quality players like Flintoff, Root, and now Stokes along with some other divergent players.

That said, during the last 20 years, not many countries have produced an ATG. India have Kohli and if he does well overseas maybe Pujara. Sri Lanka, Pakistan, West Indies have produced literally no cricketer that comes to mind immediately. Australia has Smith and maybe Warner and South Africa have Steyn and that's about it.

The elite players are many but England have produced plenty of elite players during this time.

England, as pee my opinion, has produced borderline greats with a few players who were capable of reaching the elite level. Kp is one player who comes to my mind but failed to reach the elite level due to external factors. Strauss, Cook, Anderson and Harmison do not quite make it to the elite level. You must be deluded if you think they have produced a player of the calibre of Sachin, Lara, Murali, Warne, Steyn, McGrath, Ambrose, Donald, Kallis, Gilchrist since Botham. Their elite players do not quite match the level with this players.

 

[Tusker]

Speed schmeed. When did Anderson take thirteen wickets in a test match in India (and score a century too)?

Speed is very important these days. Without a min speed you will not trouble most batsmen in the current ERA.

And when did Botham bowl to a batting lineup such as this? :
Sehwag
Tendulkar
Dravid
VVS
Ganguly

Perhaps the WI batting lineup of the 80s but his record against WI is ordinary.

Incidentally Botham in the mid-eighties reinvented himself as a quickish bowler. While he was not fast in the Marshall sense, he was distinctly sharp. He always got lift off the deck too. Over his career he got a lot of wickets with the bouncer.

Oh, but you don’t think batters like Richards, Gavaskar, Chappell, Border, Miandad were any good either do you?

The only thing that Botham re-invented in the mid 80s was his mid-riff. Only played a handfull of matches in the last 5 yrs with significant breaks in between. He was done as a bowler by mid 80s before age 30.

Infact his avg in the last 60 Tests as bowler is 37.56 .... Thats squarely in the Ishant Sharma territory.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...=results;type=bowling;view=reverse_cumulative

So thats literally last 10 yrs of his career.

 

[James]

Botham got 14 Test centuries which is excellent for an all-rounder.

 

[Ab Fan]

Very few countries produce ATG and elite cricketers and that's the reality of our sport. England have a blueprint for producing a certain kind of cricketer.



1. For Bowlers: Tall preferably over 6 3' ala Harmison, Broad, Anderson, Simon Jones, Caddick, Bob Willis etc.
2. For batters: Technically correct batsmen ala Cook, Gooch, Atherton, Nasser etc.
3. An all-rounder who bats and bowls a bit ala collingwood, holliakes, ealham, defreites, ravi bopara etc.

They rarely diverge from that and when you see country cricket, it's not hard to see why that is so. The pitches aid medium pace bowling and wickets aren't that hard to get if you just put it in the channel. The batsmen too know that they need to have a tight defensive technique and continue to play with upright elbows and bringing the bat and pad together.

The advent of t20 cricket has helped them produce batsmen who are different to the grain and that is good for the game over all.

The also have produced quality players like Flintoff, Root, and now Stokes along with some other divergent players.

<B>That said, during the last 20 years, not many countries have produced an ATG.</B> India have Kohli and if he does well overseas maybe Pujara. Sri Lanka, Pakistan, West Indies have produced literally no cricketer that comes to mind immediately. Australia has Smith and maybe Warner and South Africa have Steyn and that's about it.

The elite players are many but England have produced plenty of elite players during this time.

This is not true. ATGs produced by other countries since 90s( last 25 years):

AUS- Mcgrath, Warne, Waugh, Ponting, Gilly
SA- Donald, Pollock, Kallis, Steyn
Ind- Tendulkar, Dravid
WI- Lara, Ambrose, Walsh
Pak- Wasim, Waqar
SL- Murali, Sangakkara
Zim- Andy Flower

Even if you consider 20 years, there are many. In comparison, England have none. You can add Dhoni, Bevan, AB, Lee,Kohli for odis and it increases further.

 

[ads101]

This is not true. ATGs produced by other countries since 90s( last 25 years):

AUS- Mcgrath, Warne, Waugh, Ponting, Gilly
SA- Donald, Pollock, Kallis, Steyn
Ind- Tendulkar, Dravid
WI- Lara, Ambrose, Walsh
Pak- Wasim, Waqar
SL- Murali, Sangakkara
Zim- Andy Flower

Even if you consider 20 years, there are many. In comparison, England have none. You can add Dhoni, Bevan, AB, Lee,Kohli for odis and it increases further.

You're right, every country has produced at least one except England and New Zealand. And even New Zealand, if Bond had remained fit, sure he probably would have been an ATG too.

I'm not really sure why England don't produce many. Might be the fact few play cricket (and cricket is mostly limited to private/public schools opposed to state schools where it's hardly played). But that excuse could probably be used for other countries too. Having said that England haven't really produced any ATGs in football either despite some really good players.

I think Root will end up as an ATG hopefully. He's a cut above the rest in terms of batsmen England have had for a while.

From England I can only think of a few players in recent years who were talented IMO in order to become an ATG. Root's one. KP is another, although not trained in the Eng set up, KP in his first half of his career was ATG material. Just fell apart largely after losing captaincy and while still good, not at the level he once was. Bell probably had the talent to average 50, but at no point really was excellent in his career. Part of the reason they keep Bob Willis around (despite the fact he can be insightful, I don't think he's a particularly engaging commentator/presenter) I feel is because he was England's last great bowler.

 

[Ab Fan]

You're right, every country has produced at least one except England and New Zealand. And even New Zealand, if Bond had remained fit, sure he probably would have been an ATG too.

I'm not really sure why England don't produce many. Might be the fact few play cricket (and cricket is mostly limited to private/public schools opposed to state schools where it's hardly played). But that excuse could probably be used for other countries too. Having said that England haven't really produced any ATGs in football either despite some really good players.

I think Root will end up as an ATG hopefully. He's a cut above the rest in terms of batsmen England have had for a while.

From England I can only think of a few players in recent years who were talented IMO in order to become an ATG. Root's one. KP is another, although not trained in the Eng set up, KP in his first half of his career was ATG material. Just fell apart largely after losing captaincy and while still good, not at the level he once was. Bell probably had the talent to average 50, but at no point really was excellent in his career. Part of the reason they keep Bob Willis around (despite the fact he can be insightful, I don't think he's a particularly engaging commentator/presenter) I feel is because he was England's last great bowler.

KP underachieved massively. Between 2005-2009 I think, he looked on his way to be a really top tier batsmen not just ATG. But later got very inconsistent and missed out on some big series too.

Bell was a mental midget and never looked like becoming an ATG. Cook over achieved though but was less talented.

Root has talent but we have to wait more. I hope he does better away from home in coming time.

Same has been the case in bowling department - Anderson, Broad, Swann.

Allrounders- Again Flintoff, Stokes( probable but looks difficult)

 

[GoUgandaCranes]

Subtract 20 years from now and we reach 97. Without doing a deep analysis, none of the names that you have mentioned made their debut within this period barring the exception of possibly Gilly. That's what I said when I mentioned the 20 year period.

Since you mentioned 25 years, and even after covering for that, the resultant set will be similar.

English players have a smaller shelf life and are ousted early after failure in an ashes campaign otherwise Gough, Thorpe, Stewart, Devon Malcolm, Cook, Gooch, Gower, Pietersen aren't a bad shout for elite level players.

Gooch is massively underrated on this forum. Go through his stats and he'd be right up there despite having probably the hardest job in cricket - being an opener in England.

The last ATG Pakisan produced was Waqar and he made his debut along with Sachin. Younis has a case but the last batting ATG that we produced is Miandad.

Singling out England is just not right. ATG's are a rare breed.

 

[rudra]

All indian/pak ATG have come from humble background so they have fire in the belly to keep pushing hard and play as long as they can.
Whereas aussies are aggressive in nature and take a lot of pride in their game. Aussies always believe they are the best and strive for that. You would never see them dull or low on confidence.

But the poms are too soft in nature and can't handle defeat.
They still somewhat live in colonial hangover and are scared to get humiliated/embarresed by their former colonies. When they are low they will keep going downhill and when on top they aren't ruthless like aussies.