Why have no Pakistani spinners reached 300 Test wickets?

[Rana]

Yasir is 34 officially

He should aim for 400

 

[BreadPakoda]

Mushtaq averaged 33, Qadir averaged 47 outside of Asia (most overrated bowler of all time) and Saqlain got completely found out, he didn't have the necessary skills to succeed past that.
Lyon has been the best spinner in the world in Australian conditions that all bowlers struggle on. While Kumble and Ashwin have generally been poor outside of home, their home records are just so dominant and they are generally able to at least keep it tight away from home unlike people like Qadir

Sehwag destroyed him and his confidence. Otherwise Saqi was a top bowler.

 

[ManFan]

Sehwag destroyed him and his confidence. Otherwise Saqi was a top bowler.

A myth.

Saqi was already averaging ~43 before that series for the previous two years.

Sehwag did him a service because his knees were shot at that point and it saved him the misery of prolonged embarrassment at the international stage.

 

[Bigboii]

Pakistani spin tradition is embarrassing to say the least
Both Sri Lanka and India have WAY superior spin tradition than Pak
Even our spin greats are boderline journeyman in most asian teams

Qadir absolutely garbage outside asia, Mush was decent outside asia but not that dominant in Asia compared to his asian counterparts

Saqlain was great but you need to consistently do good to become a true great (especially when you're playing in Asia, there are no excuses) getting found out is normal for spinners especially know a days but bouncing back from that and getting back to your basics as a spinner shows your true carackter

 

[Bigboii]

There's many reasons from the lack of Test cricket compared to other nations, poor fitness leading to a lack of longevity, controversies, and in Saeed Ajmal's case having his very bowling action reported.

However I feel one of the biggest reasons is Pakistani spinners have forgotten the main skill all spinners ought to have - complete mastery of their stock ball. Saqlain for example became too reliant on the doosra which he overexposed playing so much white ball and county cricket. Batsmen played him like a legspinner. Saqlain's knees also eventually gave out.

Same goes for Mushtaq with his googly. Meanwhile Shane Warne never possessed a great googly but he always had that big turning legbreak that he could land on a penny around off-stump. Yes Warne had other variations but he always could fall back on his stock delivery, and was brilliant at setting up a batsman as opposed to showing off six different deliveries in an over.

Now with the advent of T20 cricket which while has given a new lease of life to spinners, has caused Pakistani spinners to basically replicate Imad Wasim. When you have 4 overs to bowl on a flat pitch against big hitting batsman, your primary objective is to not get hit so you'll see Pakistani spinners bowling wicket-to-wicket darts with no flight, loop or spin. Close-in fielders are reduced to spectators. If you're lucky you'll get a bowled or LBW.

This has also hurt our batsmen's ability to play spin. They were clueless against Afghanistan's spinners last year in the World Cup. They grow up on domestic wickets in Pakistan and UAE that don't break, don't spin and therefore never develop the footwork, technique or strokeplay to master spin.

Brilliant post especially this part

 

[MenInG]

 

[Major]

Dont understand why every here is soo critical of the spinners.

We have had poor captains that did not know how to play spinners. Plus, our captains had this false myth of their team that they are a pace bowling team, thus on Faisalabad wickets they would play pacers and only 1 full time spinners.

Another reason is that Pakistan has always had the spin talent. As soon as one spinner was bowling bad, we had another one ready to bowl.
I remember there was a time, Misbah started to consider to use Abdur Rehman instead of Ajmal as Rehman at one point of his career was bowling better than Ajmal

We only started to see the proper use of spinners when misbah became Captain.

Ajmal would had gotten 400, but ICC start to implement rules for chucking.

Abdur Rehman could had lead the spin attack after ajmal, but his drug usage caused fitness problems.

 

[therealAB]

Rubbish post Qadir was a genuine attacking leggie Its comparitively more difficult to keep the runs down than kumble more medium pacer and ashwin an offie You also have to factor in away umpires n their biases in giving wickets hence why many spinners records were lop sided in that era

Also what rubbish is saqlain got found out? This has nothing to do with the fact His knees were shot n he just wasnt fit enough anymore to play at the highest level rather than being found out

No he was just bad. Umpire bias at home cancelled those at home

I'm looking at average - a more attacking spinner should take more wickets. Despite you saying Qadir was attacking, both Kumble and Ashwin have much better strike rates

Saqlain began to rely too much on variations rather than stock bowling, which when read was very manageable

 

[therealAB]

He never got found out just got too old and had many injuries due to poor diet and not looking after his body. He played long enough and he out performed every Indian spinner almost every time he played against them.

Not sure what you mean by magic bowls that must be the best compliment ever. If he was able to bowl magic bowls that often wondered how batsmen manged to not give there wicket to magic bowls suddenly lol.

He relied on getting batsmen out with huge variation and deliveries that could not be consistently bowled. Top quality spinners like Warne/Murali would generally work batsmen out and set plans

 

[Ab Fan]

Pakistan's greatest test spinners of all-time list:-

1. Saqlain Mushtaq
2. Yasir Shah
3. Danish Kaneria( was unlucky, bowled a lot on flat wickets)
4. Abdul Qadir
5. Mustaq Ahmed
6. Iqbal Qasim
7. Mushtaq Mohammad
8. Intikhab Alam
8. Shahid Afridi
9. Asif Iqbal

 

[Mamoon]

Yasir will get there. He is the fourth best Test spinner of his generation but he has done enough to be considered Pakistan’s greatest ever.

His job is really tough because our fast bowlers are abysmal. He is the only spinner in the world who is expected to lead the bowling attack in all conditions.

I consider him the fourth best because in helpful conditions he can match Ashwin, Jadeja and Lyon in terms of impact and wicket-taking ability, he is extremely expensive outside Asia and does not offer the control that these other bowlers do.

Obviously, a lot has to do with the fact that he is a leggie. This really reinforces how big a genius Warne was. By far the greatest spinner to have ever lived and probably ever live.

 

[Pakhs]

He relied on getting batsmen out with huge variation and deliveries that could not be consistently bowled. Top quality spinners like Warne/Murali would generally work batsmen out and set plans

Most absurd reasoning I have ever read. How did he bowl such deliveries consistently then for so long? He did not thing different than any other spinners you mentioned. Infact if anything its the other way around Murali and warne bowled a lot of balls that the batsmen simply couldn't play i.e unplayable deliveries definitely more than saqlain who had a shorter career he did not have the same hunger as those two.

 

[Ab Fan]

Yasir will get there. He is the fourth best Test spinner of his generation but he has done enough to be considered Pakistan’s greatest ever.

His job is really tough because our fast bowlers are abysmal. He is the only spinner in the world who is expected to lead the bowling attack in all conditions.

I consider him the fourth best because in helpful conditions he can match Ashwin, Jadeja and Lyon in terms of impact and wicket-taking ability, he is extremely expensive outside Asia and does not offer the control that these other bowlers do.

Obviously, a lot has to do with the fact that he is a leggie. This really reinforces how big a genius Warne was. By far the greatest spinner to have ever lived and probably ever live.

My opinion on this is that the toughest era for spin bowling was from mid-90s to 2010 as during this period- India, Pak and SL all had some incredible spin playing batsman, the great Australian team had some great players of spin as well and then there were the likes of Lara, Flower, Cook, Kallis, KP etc.

Hence,I will put Saqlain right at top in the greatest Pakistani spin bowlers list. I feel Yasir can be rated second in this list even though he is the fourth best spinner of this generation.

Kaneria is pretty underrated as well.

 

[szrana007]

Pakistani spin tradition is embarrassing to say the least
Both Sri Lanka and India have WAY superior spin tradition than Pak
Even our spin greats are boderline journeyman in most asian teams

Qadir absolutely garbage outside asia,
Mush was decent outside asia but not that dominant in Asia compared to his asian counterparts

Saqlain was great but you need to consistently do good to become a true great (especially when you're playing in Asia, there are no excuses) getting found out is normal for spinners especially know a days but bouncing back from that and getting back to your basics as a spinner shows your true carackter

Mushtaq Ahmed wasn't just decent outside Asia, he was beast outside Asia. He won Pakistan test matches in every SENA country. He was the 2nd most effective legspinner outside Asia after Warne.

 

[therealAB]

Most absurd reasoning I have ever read. How did he bowl such deliveries consistently then for so long? He did not thing different than any other spinners you mentioned. Infact if anything its the other way around Murali and warne bowled a lot of balls that the batsmen simply couldn't play i.e unplayable deliveries definitely more than saqlain who had a shorter career he did not have the same hunger as those two.

Sorry, I could have been more specific
My the magic balls, I referred to the Doosra
Saqlain relied upon his Doosra far more than Murali on his, or Warne on flipper/googly/toppy

Once these became pickable, he struggled

 

[Pakhs]

Sorry, I could have been more specific
My the magic balls, I referred to the Doosra
Saqlain relied upon his Doosra far more than Murali on his, or Warne on flipper/googly/toppy

Once these became pickable, he struggled

Again you are wrong, Saqlain was already a star even before he mastered the doosra if anything bowling doosra meant he had ankle injuries and contributed to his downfall. Besides not many people mastered the doosra anyway. He just did not have the same hunger as the other spinners mentioned and was careless with his diet and recovery. He made a poor attempt at a comback in the 2004 Pakistan series and played a single game he could have if he wanted to played few more after that given his reputation but decided it was enough for him.

 

[Saj]

Impressive strike rate for Yasir.

23 less matches than Qadir and he's only 3 wickets behind him.

 

[mastimasti]

Its obvious they never played enough matches,either through fitness or dubious selections.

I believe this point explains it.

 

[Zaz]

No he was just bad. Umpire bias at home cancelled those at home

I'm looking at average - a more attacking spinner should take more wickets. Despite you saying Qadir was attacking, both Kumble and Ashwin have much better strike rates

Saqlain began to rely too much on variations rather than stock bowling, which when read was very manageable

Qadir played in a era where there were a lot more draws Players had more patience and lower strike rates and were more willing to bat time n play sessions out

Bedi and the indian strike rates were awful but that was a different era to now Batsmen have zero patience now and ability to bat out innings hence spinners n bowlers in general strike so much quicker
hence the bowlers strike rates were higher

 

[Zaz]

Sehwag destroyed him and his confidence. Otherwise Saqi was a top bowler.

One innings series or a player doesnt destroy a bowler

Saqi was on a downward spiral for two years His knees were shot, he was missing matches left right and centre through injuries and his avge was rising steadily well before the india series

He was finished as a bowler by 2004 It had nothing to do with sehwag

 

[therealAB]

Qadir played in a era where there were a lot more draws Players had more patience and lower strike rates and were more willing to bat time n play sessions out

Bedi and the indian strike rates were awful but that was a different era to now Batsmen have zero patience now and ability to bat out innings hence spinners n bowlers in general strike so much quicker
hence the bowlers strike rates were higher

Batting averages were the same. They take into account strike rate and economy
Someone like Bedi was miles better, as shown buy his average. Qadir was so much more expensive and such his wickets cost a lot more

Qadir was mediocre. His overseas average is embarrassing, and his overall average is the definition of mediocre for a bowler whose home was in the subcontinent

 

[Zaz]

Batting averages were the same. They take into account strike rate and economy
Someone like Bedi was miles better, as shown buy his average. Qadir was so much more expensive and such his wickets cost a lot more

Qadir was mediocre. His overseas average is embarrassing, and his overall average is the definition of mediocre for a bowler whose home was in the subcontinent

So now youve moved on from strike rate to avge once your argument was countered? Shows your lack of cricket knowledge if your calling qadir mediocre

You show me apart from warne another leggie whos not expensive or doesnt have skewed stats Its the nature of the bowling Its difficult to control unlike finger spinners and hence bowlers are likely to be expensive

If u didnt watch him bowl i suggest you dont base your assumptions on stats as they alone only tell a part of the story

Speak to most of the great players from the 80s and they ll tell you what a bowler qadir was That alone is good enough for me

 

[therealAB]

So now youve moved on from strike rate to avge once your argument was countered? Shows your lack of cricket knowledge if your calling qadir mediocre

You show me apart from warne another leggie whos not expensive or doesnt have skewed stats Its the nature of the bowling Its difficult to control unlike finger spinners and hence bowlers are likely to be expensive

If u didnt watch him bowl i suggest you dont base your assumptions on stats as they alone only tell a part of the story

Speak to most of the great players from the 80s and they ll tell you what a bowler qadir was That alone is good enough for me

Average is the best judge of a bowler. Also, since you brought up economy rates and average = economy*strikerate/6, a discussion of strike rates, economies is just a discussion of averages. Stats define how effective a bowler was. Qadir was beautiful to watch, but if I picked a bowler on performance there would be a hundred bowlers, and over ten leggies I'd pick before the overrated Pakistani

You claimed the Qadir's poor SR is due to when he played, but couldn't explain how his economy was higher than all of his contemporaries. Averages have been pretty much consistent throughout history, so a bowler who averages higher than his peers is basically worse, especially when he has such a high home/away skew

Qadir has a poor strike rate and economy, hence a poor average and hence a poor bowler

As for leggies, Warne, Grimmett, O'Reilly, Gibbs, Kumble, MacGill and Chandra are all much better

Can you please give me one objective reason to why Qadir is any better than mediocre

 

[Last Monetarist]

As for leggies, Warne, Grimmett, O'Reilly, Gibbs, Kumble, MacGill and Chandra are all much better

Though I agree with all the points in the post, wasn't Gibbs an off-spinner or are you thinking of someone else?

 

[Zaz]

Average is the best judge of a bowler. Also, since you brought up economy rates and average = economy*strikerate/6, a discussion of strike rates, economies is just a discussion of averages. Stats define how effective a bowler was. Qadir was beautiful to watch, but if I picked a bowler on performance there would be a hundred bowlers, and over ten leggies I'd pick before the overrated Pakistani

You claimed the Qadir's poor SR is due to when he played, but couldn't explain how his economy was higher than all of his contemporaries. Averages have been pretty much consistent throughout history, so a bowler who averages higher than his peers is basically worse, especially when he has such a high home/away skew

Qadir has a poor strike rate and economy, hence a poor average and hence a poor bowler

As for leggies, Warne, Grimmett, O'Reilly, Gibbs, Kumble, MacGill and Chandra are all much better

Can you please give me one objective reason to why Qadir is any better than mediocre

Which contemporaries are you talking about that had better econmies than him? All the leggies youve mentioned either came before him or after him

None played at the same time as him during the same era Also gibbs wasnt a leggie he was an offie

 

[Zaz]

Which contemporaries are you talking about that had better econmies than him? All the leggies youve mentioned either came before him or after him

None played at the same time as him during the same era Also gibbs wasnt a leggie he was an offie

The fact that qadir was the only great leggie of his era and the fact that you can only name about 6-8 ever of mix quality shows how difficult an art it is when there have been so few

I wouldnt call kumble or chandra leggies as they werent in the classical sense more medium pacers who spun the ball a little either way Grimmett and O Reily played 50 years before qadir in a totally different era

Warne and Macgill were more leggies and undoubtedly warne is probably the best ever exponent of the most difficult art and theres no shame in being 2nd or third to him

Calling anyone of Qadirs standing as medicore shows immaturity and a lack of knowledge on the subject

 

[naseem]

No. Of matches are less and less game at home... UAE is not home sorry......Kaneria could but again....

 

[PakPremi]

No point debating anyone calling Qadir mediocre. Beyond stats when Qadir was bowling Pak were putting up a lot of pressure on oppositions and batsmen were mesmerised.

 

[PakPremi]

I believe this point explains it.

Thanks and it is quite obvious and not only for Pak spinners but for some of the pacers except the two Ws. Shoaib, Asif and Gul could have achieved a lot more.

 

[mastimasti]

Thanks and it is quite obvious and not only for Pak spinners but for some of the pacers except the two Ws. Shoaib, Asif and Gul could have achieved a lot more.

Not sure about Gul but I agree with the other two. Poor selection, dropping guys at inopportune moments etc has really damaged what could have been even more matches and wickets.

The current non-selection of Abbas is another fine example.

 

[topspin]

I don't think Pakistan have ever had a full-time spinner who has gone on to play 70 tests. The sheer ack of quality and age fudging has a lot to do with that. Kaneria being the exception to this though ofc.

Qadir was overrated and simply not good enough outside Asia. Saqlain was much older than his official age. Ajmal was a serial chucker.

Yasir Shah is Pakistan's greatest spinner of all time without a shadow of a doubt.

 

[Bigboii]

I don't think Pakistan have ever had a full-time spinner who has gone on to play 70 tests. The sheer ack of quality and age fudging has a lot to do with that. Kaneria being the exception to this though ofc.

Qadir was overrated and simply not good enough outside Asia. Saqlain was much older than his official age. Ajmal was a serial chucker.

Yasir Shah is Pakistan's greatest spinner of all time without a shadow of a doubt.

You didn't even talk about Mushtaq...

 

[topspin]

You didn't even talk about Mushtaq...

He was good but the Tableeghi did their thing with him. Like Saeed Anwar, he regressed in the 2000s.

 

[Last Monetarist]

Mushtaq Ahmed is the best spinner Pakistan has produced for matches outside Asia. Certainly the biggest matchwinner amongst all the spinners in the country's history. His record in Asia was average, however, as he bowled too slowly to be a success on the dry wickets in the subcontinent.

My overall ranking is as follows:

1. Mushtaq Ahmed
2. Saqlain Mushtaq
3. Yasir Shah
4. Danish Kaneria
5. Iqbal Qasim
6. Abdul Qadir
7. Mushtaq Mohammad
8. Abdul Rehman
9. Intikhab Alam
10. Tauseef Ahmed

Unfortunately none of our spinners are close to being categorized as greats.