Why is Canada among the top liveable countries?

[endymion248]

More rubbish.

Not all institutions, degrees from third world countries are trash.

Who says there is no guarantee, favoritism in Canada?

The point system should be very clear from the beginning, if the Canadian govt, Canadian employers and Canadian society in large feels that degrees in Pakistan and India are trash then the Canadian govt should not give any points.

How come these degrees are trash in Canada but not in Canada, UK or Australia?

I have met people from Harvard and Oxford in Canada who has faced Canadian experience barriers and have not received interview calls for months. Are their degrees trash as well?

I really hope that one day all these companies get taken to task by the govt and be instructed to get their act straight.

The point system is supposed to discriminate between immigrants, not between immigrants and locals. Obviously, for Canada, it's better to have an immigrant who is a plumber or a doctor (which are needed in the local economy) rather than a primary school educated labourer. However, that doesn't mean that, after selection, the plumber or the doctor will get a job without a local qualification. At the end of the day, in most professions, it's the business world's choice who they want to hire. If they are not hiring qualified candidates due to bias then it's mostly their own loss since the candidates will eventually end up making the competition better. If none of the businesses are hiring a given candidate then maybe the problem lies with the candidate. And same is true for limited professions such as medicine or trades/artisan professions in most of the developed world: they follow an extremely rigourous education where, each year, thousands of local candidates are eliminated due to not living up to it. Why should someone who has gotten dubious third world qualifications be given the preference without having gone through the same process? Even if you ignore the quality of medical school in the west vs quality of medical school in Pakistan, there is simply not the same selection process as anyone can get into private medical school in Pakistan provided they pay up the money. So, you have worse quality of education coupled with easier selection and, on top of that, add that medical school in Pakistan is 4-5 years vs 8 in NA, and yet you expect that Pakistani doctors should be given jobs on arrival?

 

[AlphaFighter]

Why would hospitals hire a doctor from Pakistan for whom it took 5 years to be a doctor when in Canada it takes 12 years and only the top and best students could ever get into medical schools ? I've seen couple of people from my own highschool who decided to go become a doctor in Paksitan because it is only 5 years(didn't believe that story initially) because they couldn't get into a good university here. Now even out of that good university only the best and most qualified students get into med school. You can't become a doctor because your parents told you to be, or you thought being a doctor would be a good career. You must be wanting to be a doctor since childhood and it should be the only aim. It is just like wanting to be a professional athlete without the natural talent but with sheer hard work. Don't think I want to be operated by a doctor who had spent 5 years after high school.

So just because a person became a doctor in 5 years in Pakistan or Sub-continent makes him an inferior doctor to a Canadian doctor?

Is it the Pakistani doctor's fault that Canada has a top education system for doctors?

I can guarantee you that a doctor who spent 5 years in medical school in Pakistan can do a similarly adequate if not an even better job than a Doctor in Canada who spent 12 years in Canada to become a doctor.

Even the US has very tough standards for their own medical graduates but unlike Canada the US allows foreign doctors to give a few licencing exams and upon clearing them foreign doctors are given the right to us the title of MD. This is how it should be to make it fair for everyone.

Some of the responses here are very sad. Acting more Canadians than even Canadians do. Typical.

 

[Thivagar]

More rubbish.

Not all institutions, degrees from third world countries are trash.

Who says there is no guarantee, favoritism in Canada?

The point system should be very clear from the beginning, if the Canadian govt, Canadian employers and Canadian society in large feels that degrees in Pakistan and India are trash then the Canadian govt should not give any points.

How come these degrees are trash in Canada but not in Canada, UK or Australia?

I have met people from Harvard and Oxford in Canada who has faced Canadian experience barriers and have not received interview calls for months. Are their degrees trash as well?

I really hope that one day all these companies get taken to task by the govt and be instructed to get their act straight.

Proud of this employer . Even a Harvard student is rejected cause he isn't a Canadian educated. India or Ethiopia. Pakistan or Poland. If you aren't educated in Canada, you aren't getting the job.

[MENTION=137142]JaDed[/MENTION] this is our kind of conservatism

 

[Thivagar]

So just because a person became a doctor in 5 years in Pakistan or Sub-continent makes him an inferior doctor to a Canadian doctor?

Is it the Pakistani doctor's fault that Canada has a top education system for doctors?

I can guarantee you that a doctor who spent 5 years in medical school in Pakistan can do a similarly adequate if not an even better job than a Doctor in Canada who spent 12 years in Canada to become a doctor.

Even the US has very tough standards for their own medical graduates but unlike Canada the US allows foreign doctors to give a few licencing exams and upon clearing them foreign doctors are given the right to us the title of MD. This is how it should be to make it fair for everyone.

Some of the responses here are very sad. Acting more Canadians than even Canadians do. Typical.

I worked at my uncle's manufacturing plant that builds transformers. There was a filipino marine engineer, Ukrainian Electrical engineer and an English mechanical engineer. Both were getting paid low wage working with me on the assembly line. No one is going to consider the English degree as "inferior". You even admitted the Harvard student of not getting a job in Canada. It is not racism, it is not discrimination, it is purely because the education isn't Canadian enough. Is Canada missing out on good doctors, engineers, successful people, yes. But we always have people to do that job.

I don't want to sound rude or offend anyone considering that everyone seem to be a doctor here. Id be more comfortable with a doctor that had spent 12 years in school than a 5 years regardless of where. I know how hard is to become a doctor here. It has nothing to do with race, because the doctors are of Indian, Pakistani, Persian, and etc as well.

 

[AlphaFighter]

[MENTION=5942]AlphaFighter[/MENTION] if you had been educated in Canada you would know that advantage you have over living in US. Canada does more to new comers than US, because you spent money coming here that doesn't mean you deserve all the flower garlands. It is like saying " I paid so much money for my college but the teacher didn't give me an A+". You knew what you were getting into. You wanted a better life, and you got yourself one of the best country in the world to live. If you aren't happy about being in this position, you can always go back (not to sound rude) but then you aren't because you found this life much better than where you lived, so you stayed here. Same goes to many others.

To be very honest, there is not an outstanding difference between the Canadian education i have had so far and am still going through and all my Pakistani degrees from the best business school i went to.

I wont even say the life in Canada is way better than the life i enjoyed in Pakistan. The major issue with Pakistan is predominantly the security and law and order situation. My parents are die hard patriots and still are. My dad had the opportunity to immigrate to the US in the 80's but he refused. My parents had my elder brother when they were living in the UK and had they stayed for an extra 6 months in the UK they both could have become UK citizens. But back then they didn't care about these things but now as time has gone on, they regret these choices day by day, not because they don't want to live in Pakistan but because they now realize it is so vital to have a 2nd or 3rd option as you can never tell what the situation will be like in Pakistan in the future.

Like i said previously, my dad has done extremely well in Canada, he is one of the few luckiest people who moved to Canada only after being offered a $700,000 plus job in the top Medical hospital in Canada unlike so many other immigrants who have to take that gamble and move, struggle here without a job offer. I too went back to University to pursue the CPA designation and mentally it wasn't easy knowing full well everything i did previously in my life was now worthless, but i bit the bullet and moved on. We live in a $2,000,000 house in Toronto and have several properties in the US, Dxb, Uk and in Pakistan.

Even i have penetrated the system and got a lucky break in an accounting firm at $40,000.

But inspite of the above i am not going to adopt the classic attitude that most Desi's adopt once they successfully settle down in Canada and look down upon fellow desi's and mock them for still struggling "you didn't network, you didn't sell yourself, you don't know how to create an impression, you think you deserve a job just because of your foreign prestigious degrees, designation, accomplished work experience".

I am not going to act more Canadian than Canadian with my own. I will call a spade a spade with regards to economic and intellectual racism that exists in Canada. Even more shockingly this does not just happen with Subcontinent, middle eastern, asian immigrants, this occurs with immigrants from Europe, Russia and South America as well.

No wonder the US is truly regarded as the land of opportunity compared to Canada which is just a poster boy for multi culturalism in posters only rather than in spirit.

 

[AlphaFighter]

Proud of this employer . Even a Harvard student is rejected cause he isn't a Canadian educated. India or Ethiopia. Pakistan or Poland. If you aren't educated in Canada, you aren't getting the job.

[MENTION=137142]JaDed[/MENTION] this is our kind of conservatism

Tell me honestly, are you actually glad as a local canadian and are delighted that the whole education and economic system in Canada is designed in favor of local Canadians over foreign immigrants.

Thats the impression i am getting over here and in my entire Canadian journey so far.

I don't mind it, its perfectly fine, if the Canadian govt is up front about it in its posters and marketing material and tells the entire world the truth about all these realities and reflects these realities in their point systems then i don't think anyone should complain.

 

[AlphaFighter]

From what I know 5 years is just M.B.B.S.. then you have another 5-7 years for specialisation. So the standard is pretty much the same.

A cousin of mine did MBBS in Islamabad and then moved to California, did his specialization from there and now earns $300/hr.. Granted he works as a lead surgeon in ER in a big hospital and the things he sees day in and day out most people won't be able to handle.

That's what i am saying, the US has a better economic and social system for immigrants than Canada inspite of 9/11. Every time i go to the US for vacations, just the overall environment gives me hope that there is opportunity here but i have never felt the same in Canada.

 

[AlphaFighter]

The point system is supposed to discriminate between immigrants, not between immigrants and locals.

The point system should reflect the ground realities of the Canadian economy and society from the beginning. If the Canadian society does not accept foreign medical qualifications then no points should be awarded to these foreign doctors applying to immigrate to Canada.

Obviously, for Canada, it's better to have an immigrant who is a plumber or a doctor (which are needed in the local economy) rather than a primary school educated labourer. However, that doesn't mean that, after selection, the plumber or the doctor will get a job without a local qualification.

To think that a country like the US gives you something on a platter is naive my friend. Even foreign doctors, foreign engineers in the US have to pass certain exams to come to the US standards but the difference between Canada and the US is that Canada asks you to go back to school completely from the very beginning while the US will ask you to give 1-2 exams only before being professionally accepted into the system, in some cases the US economy even allows you to apply for other jobs based on your foreign work experience where those skills are transferable but sadly that is not the case in Canada.

Overall based on what i have seen and observed, for jobs and opportunities the US is a much better and economcially accepting place for foreign immigrants compared to Canada.

At the end of the day, in most professions, it's the business world's choice who they want to hire. If they are not hiring qualified candidates due to bias then it's mostly their own loss since the candidates will eventually end up making the competition better. If none of the businesses are hiring a given candidate then maybe the problem lies with the candidate. -

As a lot of struggling immigrants in Canada have proven after they acquired their Canadian pp and immediately got jobs in the US, UK, Australia or Middle east even though they were out of their fields for a good 4-5 years, the problem was not with these candidates, they were not loosers, they did not lack skills, intelligence, it was the country of Canada which chose to discriminate against them in favor of lesser qualified, lesser experienced and in some cases local high school graduates.

Why should someone who has gotten dubious third world qualifications be given the preference without having gone through the same process? Even if you ignore the quality of medical school in the west vs quality of medical school in Pakistan, there is simply not the same selection process as anyone can get into private medical school in Pakistan provided they pay up the money. So, you have worse quality of education coupled with easier selection and, on top of that, add that medical school in Pakistan is 4-5 years vs 8 in NA, and yet you expect that Pakistani doctors should be given jobs on arrival? -

Again, you are discriminatingly generalizing that Foreign Medical qualifications, curriculam are extremely inferior compared to Canadian medical degrees, qualifications. It is not the fault of these foreign immigrants that the Canadian medical education system is crap and tough.

If Canada had no demand and need for these foreign doctors they should not have been allowed into the country in the first place, period. Win-Win for all.

 

[UP]

Canada is the best country in the world. It comfortably fits in top 5. Let's hope the new government takes it to number 1.

First of all, Canada doesn't revolve around desi immigrants who came to the country in last 10 years or so. Yes, I agree, the immigration system hasn't worked the best for many recent immigrants. But, in this day & age who is stopping you to research online before you take such a huge step of immigrating to a new place? If you are 'educated' - do the research and compare what suits you the best. Please use some common sense.

Secondly, Canada is a huge country - economies of all provinces vary from one another. What might be good for you in Ontario might not be good for you in New Brunswick and so on.

Overall, Canada is in shortage of skilled labour like electricians, welders, plumbers and landscapers to name a few. More than a million jobs will be in demand within a decade. Canadians earn handsome pay if they are skilled ($50/hour). Canada has never faced shortages of accountants, lawyers, doctors. The problem with desi mindset is that they want to be a 'babu saab' and rarely go into skilled labour. They shrug it off as dirty work. If you are skilled and don't have the language barrier - you have good chances of getting hired. If you are foreign educated and were a doctor back in your birth country and you have recently moved to Canada to be a doctor - just don't bother. All I say to you: were you so dumb that you didn't bother to research?

And some posters who seem to be very educated in this thread just don't seem to have the common sense when they compare Canada with the US. US is 10 or 20 times bigger than Canada population wise. These are two different countries with two different needs. US will always have more opportunities because of supply/demand. After all, US is a 17 trillion economy vs 2 trillion Canadian. In Canada, population revolves around 2 or 3 major cities whereas California has a bigger population than the whole of Canada. In Canada, there are jobs but they are out of major cities and people don't want to move out. You won't find desis out few major cities if you go out an hour drive - just saying.

Plus, the benefits of CPP, old age, health care, education, excellent environment, good governance, non-existent crime rate, good police, good judiciary system of what makes Canada the best.

 

[UP]

It baffles my mind when people make it Canada vs US opportunity wise. Please use your brain because your comparison makes no sense at all. Also, weather plays a huge role in both countries. Canada is frozen and nothing to do whereas US is all good in every corner of the country.

 

[AlphaFighter]

First of all, Canada doesn't revolve around desi immigrants who came to the country in last 10 years or so. Yes, I agree, the immigration system hasn't worked the best for many recent immigrants. But, in this day & age who is stopping you to research online before you take such a huge step of immigrating to a new place? If you are 'educated' - do the research and compare what suits you the best. Please use some common sense.

My issue is not with the realities of Canada, my issue with the Canadian govt which is not honest and transparent when promoting immigration to the country of Canada to prospective immigrants.

People indeed immigrate to Canada, some full well knowing that their professional working lives are over once they enter the country but they choose to make this decision and sacrifice for the well being of their next generation. But this still does not justify the economic and intellectual racism in the country.

Overall, Canada is in shortage of skilled labour like electricians, welders, plumbers and landscapers to name a few. More than a million jobs will be in demand within a decade. Canadians earn handsome pay if they are skilled ($50/hour). Canada has never faced shortages of accountants, lawyers, doctors. The problem with desi mindset is that they want to be a 'babu saab' and rarely go into skilled labour. They shrug it off as dirty work. If you are skilled and don't have the language barrier - you have good chances of getting hired. If you are foreign educated and were a doctor back in your birth country and you have recently moved to Canada to be a doctor - just don't bother. All I say to you: were you so dumb that you didn't bother to research?

If this is the case then the Canadian govt should award full points to those foreign qualified and foreign educated individuals in these trades and for the skills not in demand in Canada, for foreign qualifications not in demand or respected in Canada, the Canadian govt should give zero points. There points system must reflect the realities on the ground rather than aiming to con and scam immigrants into spending more and more money into Canada.

And some posters who seem to be very educated in this thread just don't seem to have the common sense when they compare Canada with the US. US is 10 or 20 times bigger than Canada population wise. These are two different countries with two different needs. US will always have more opportunities because of supply/demand. After all, US is a 17 trillion economy vs 2 trillion Canadian. In Canada, population revolves around 2 or 3 major cities whereas California has a bigger population than the whole of Canada. In Canada, there are jobs but they are out of major cities and people don't want to move out. You won't find desis out few major cities if you go out an hour drive - just saying.

Point noted but that being said, based on impirical data and statistics, the US is a much better country for foreign qualified and foreign experienced immigrants when it comes to Jobs as compared to Canada.

All the first world benefits of a country are more or less pointless if a person cannot get a decent job in his field and is professionally satisified.

Plus, the benefits of CPP, old age, health care, education, excellent environment, good governance, non-existent crime rate, good police, good judiciary system of what makes Canada the best. -

Social security, good education, excellent environment, good governance, low crime rates, good police, good judiciary exists in the US as well. Free health care is a big plus but is it actually really free when people are being taxed at 50%? Even if it is free, is it really worth it if people have to wait months and months for an operation? I have heard of so many Canadians who go to the US for urgent but timely procedures because the wait times in Canada are so long and if they can afford it they don't mind paying for quality but timely health care.

Point is all these other benefits of Canada only really matter if one has a decent job in his own field.

 

[AlphaFighter]

It baffles my mind when people make it Canada vs US opportunity wise. Please use your brain because your comparison makes no sense at all. Also, weather plays a huge role in both countries. Canada is frozen and nothing to do whereas US is all good in every corner of the country.

The weather in some states in the US is similar if not as worse as Canada. This does not justify the intellectual and economic racism which exists in Canada for foreign immigrants with respect to their foreign qualifications, foreign work experiences. The US accepts immigrants in true spirits compared to Canada which just uses them as poster boys in front of the world.

 

[Thivagar]

Tell me honestly, are you actually glad as a local canadian and are delighted that the whole education and economic system in Canada is designed in favor of local Canadians over foreign immigrants.

Thats the impression i am getting over here and in my entire Canadian journey so far.

I don't mind it, its perfectly fine, if the Canadian govt is up front about it in its posters and marketing material and tells the entire world the truth about all these realities and reflects these realities in their point systems then i don't think anyone should complain.

Yes, i've been living here since I was 10. If the employers were to hire everyone as they come, the local population will suffer as the incoming immigrants possess superior experience.

Why would the Canadian government bad mouth themselves ? When you attend an interview do you bad mouth yourself ? Of course not, you represent the best of you, that is what the Canadian government does. Provinces like Manitoba and Saskatchewan are already asking people to come and work in their province as they need people. It is a slight improvement, but the opportunity is being created. Provinces need people, they know lot of people's qualification is going to go to waste so they are taking the opportunity. It is late for lot of people abut hey the world is nor perfect. Canada wants educated population, so it is going to recruit them, even if the first generation suffers their kids will get education and are more likely to be successful as their parents because they have been raised by their educated parents.

 

[Thivagar]

To be very honest, there is not an outstanding difference between the Canadian education i have had so far and am still going through and all my Pakistani degrees from the best business school i went to.

I wont even say the life in Canada is way better than the life i enjoyed in Pakistan. The major issue with Pakistan is predominantly the security and law and order situation. My parents are die hard patriots and still are. My dad had the opportunity to immigrate to the US in the 80's but he refused. My parents had my elder brother when they were living in the UK and had they stayed for an extra 6 months in the UK they both could have become UK citizens. But back then they didn't care about these things but now as time has gone on, they regret these choices day by day, not because they don't want to live in Pakistan but because they now realize it is so vital to have a 2nd or 3rd option as you can never tell what the situation will be like in Pakistan in the future.

Like i said previously, my dad has done extremely well in Canada, he is one of the few luckiest people who moved to Canada only after being offered a $700,000 plus job in the top Medical hospital in Canada unlike so many other immigrants who have to take that gamble and move, struggle here without a job offer. I too went back to University to pursue the CPA designation and mentally it wasn't easy knowing full well everything i did previously in my life was now worthless, but i bit the bullet and moved on. We live in a $2,000,000 house in Toronto and have several properties in the US, Dxb, Uk and in Pakistan.

Even i have penetrated the system and got a lucky break in an accounting firm at $40,000.

But inspite of the above i am not going to adopt the classic attitude that most Desi's adopt once they successfully settle down in Canada and look down upon fellow desi's and mock them for still struggling "you didn't network, you didn't sell yourself, you don't know how to create an impression, you think you deserve a job just because of your foreign prestigious degrees, designation, accomplished work experience".

I am not going to act more Canadian than Canadian with my own. I will call a spade a spade with regards to economic and intellectual racism that exists in Canada. Even more shockingly this does not just happen with Subcontinent, middle eastern, asian immigrants, this occurs with immigrants from Europe, Russia and South America as well.

No wonder the US is truly regarded as the land of opportunity compared to Canada which is just a poster boy for multi culturalism in posters only rather than in spirit.

That is good for you, that shows that you still have opportunity to become successful. Like someone said, you can upgrade your education. Many people prefer Canada that is why people are willing to come to Canada, Canada can't let everyone come in an d say "its a free for all". There needs to be a system, it isn't too racist either. Most of the immigrants has been from South Asia, very few are from Europe, even they are from poorer nation like Ireland, Ukraine and so on. This is the way how it works and it is going to continue to work. Local people matter, regardless of their background. If USA feels like an opportunity that is fine adapting it as their new country.

 

[Thivagar]

[MENTION=5942]AlphaFighter[/MENTION]

Jamaicans, Mexicans, Costa Ricans and many migrate as "skilled labours". So people do use that to get to Canada. Again the Point System was established in 1967 to remove earlier system that only welcomed Western Europeans. The Point System was established so people can come live in Canada based on skills and not on race. It has nothing to do with whether they can get the job they want or not brother. There is no "intellectual racism", they accept your qualification and that is why you are let into this country. There are places in this world where people will never have citizenship even if they were born there, especially in countries where people are from lesser developed countries. Canada still allows more South Asians and Chinese more than any other kinds of people. Followed by Africans, Arabs/Persians and so on. Canada's natural rate of increase is very low, they need people and they rather have educated people than not so well educated ones.

 

[UP]

[MENTION=5942]AlphaFighter[/MENTION]

Canadian government is being honest. This is what they say before you apply to come on points based system: If you get an ECA, it does not guarantee you a job in your field or that you will be able to get a license in Canada. If you plan to work in an occupation that is regulated in Canada, you should contact the regulatory authority in the province where you plan to live. They can give you important information about getting your license, including any steps you can take before you leave your home country.

If you are fully aware and still sacrifice for your next generation - I don't know how it is racism then? There are more than 200 countries to live in the world...

1) Points based system is awarded for all professions (skilled more). You can't give 0 points to someone who is a professional. I don't know how it is a scam when the government clearly gives you the warning.

2) Again you are making it Canada vs US when it makes no sense. The whole world wants to move to Toronto whereas US is more spread out. You can literally go anywhere in the US. For example: in Toronto there's 1 job and 100 applicants - what's going to happen?

3) If those services are good or equally good then why US consistently ranks lower than Canada? US rarely makes it into top 15.

Who is being taxed at 50%? I have never heard that before. Can you prove it with a government or a reliable link?

4) And about the health care - yes there are some cases where people may have to wait for long but that is for some cases. Canadians have an access to fast and quality health care. It's a myth about wait times.

Regarding people going to US for health care - yes that's true but very rare. About 0.9% of Canadian population went to US for health treatment in 2013. I personally got treated in Canada for about 2 years (cancer chemotherapy) and my mother regularly went to seek medical attention. I have no complaints. You can't make everyone happy. Please don't compare private vs public institutions. If you really want compare the healthcare then do it with a country like UK.

 

[Thivagar]

[MENTION=5942]AlphaFighter[/MENTION]

Canadian government is being honest. This is what they say before you apply to come on points based system: If you get an ECA, it does not guarantee you a job in your field or that you will be able to get a license in Canada. If you plan to work in an occupation that is regulated in Canada, you should contact the regulatory authority in the province where you plan to live. They can give you important information about getting your license, including any steps you can take before you leave your home country.

If you are fully aware and still sacrifice for your next generation - I don't know how it is racism then? There are more than 200 countries to live in the world...

1) Points based system is awarded for all professions (skilled more). You can't give 0 points to someone who is a professional. I don't know how it is a scam when the government clearly gives you the warning.

2) Again you are making it Canada vs US when it makes no sense. The whole world wants to move to Toronto whereas US is more spread out. You can literally go anywhere in the US. For example: in Toronto there's 1 job and 100 applicants - what's going to happen?

3) If those services are good or equally good then why US consistently ranks lower than Canada? US rarely makes it into top 15.

Who is being taxed at 50%? I have never heard that before. Can you prove it with a government or a reliable link?

4) And about the health care - yes there are some cases where people may have to wait for long but that is for some cases. Canadians have an access to fast and quality health care. It's a myth about wait times.

Regarding people going to US for health care - yes that's true but very rare. About 0.9% of Canadian population went to US for health treatment in 2013. I personally got treated in Canada for about 2 years (cancer chemotherapy) and my mother regularly went to seek medical attention. I have no complaints. You can't make everyone happy. Please don't compare private vs public institutions. If you really want compare the healthcare then do it with a country like UK.

He said his dad earns $700,000 a year. He probably pays about 48% in tax. Why are you surprised that his dad is paying nearly 50% in tax ? It is a norm to pay close to 45% to 48% in tax if you earn more than $500,000. Athletes and Artists pay 48%. Medical professionals close to 45% if they earn more than $500,000 in general.

 

[Sachin136]

Medical school isn't 8 years long in North America, it is around 5 years long. Even in an MSTP for a MD/PhD it is around 7-8 years long. People wrongly count the 4 years of undergraduate work as medical school (even if someone majored in English and took no biology courses apart from the basic premed requirements).

 

[AlphaFighter]

Yes, i've been living here since I was 10. If the employers were to hire everyone as they come, the local population will suffer as the incoming immigrants possess superior experience.

Why hasn't the local population in the US suffered then? If the Canadian society and the govt do not want immigrants with superior foreign qualifications and work experience then why are they letting them in the country in the first place?

Why would the Canadian government bad mouth themselves ? When you attend an interview do you bad mouth yourself ? Of course not, you represent the best of you, that is what the Canadian government does. -

It is one thing to bad mouth yourself and another thing to be brutally honest about the ground realities, a more appropriate reality is a prospective employer telling a job applicant about the reality of the situation and culture in the company i.e. you will have to do this, that, what you have on your resume will no longer be accepted, we can accept you in this position, but we cannot accept you in that position, if you think this is a fair deal welcome on board, if not then you are welcome not to accept it.

Where the Canadian govt is being dis-honest and running a scam is via their point based system of attracting immigrants who when they land in the country realize the harsh realities that it means absolutely nothing.

People who talk about you should have upgraded you skills, education and volunteered to add some Canadian on your resume. Guess what my friends, i know a few people who have invested $100,000-$150,000 in colleges, schools, certifications, volunteered and have still not been successful in finding a job even though they have lived in this country for 20 years and have integrated into the culture. Not a very accepting country and culture now is it?

Provinces like Manitoba and Saskatchewan are already asking people to come and work in their province as they need people. It is a slight improvement, but the opportunity is being created. Provinces need people, they know lot of people's qualification is going to go to waste so they are taking the opportunity. It is late for lot of people abut hey the world is nor perfect. -

I have heard and met some people who have applied to these provinces and even provinces like Yukon and Northern territories out of desperation but still no success.

Quit making excuses for Canada i.e. the world is not perfect. Immigrants in the US i.e. highly qualified immigrants do not suffer like this as they do in countries like the US, Australia, UK, Europe on such a scale as they do in Canada.

Canada wants educated population, so it is going to recruit them, even if the first generation suffers their kids will get education and are more likely to be successful as their parents because they have been raised by their educated parents.

The statement that canada want's educated people is incorrect, what i will say is that they are more interested in the kids who will study in Canadian schools and then join the Canadians work force. But why is it fair and just for the first generation parents to suffer like this? I know a few families where the father is earning a ton of cash in the middle east and what they end up doing adopting to the harsh ground realities in Canada is that they apply for immigration, land in Canada, the father buys a house, a few cars in Mississauga, enrolls his kids in school, universities, the mother lives with the kids while the father sends plenty of money to them every month from the middle east.

I don't blame these people, if this is how it is in Canada, then people have all the right in the world to become citizens of convenience.

 

[AlphaFighter]

That is good for you, that shows that you still have opportunity to become successful. Like someone said, you can upgrade your education.

My friend, i am going to be honest, i was very very lucky. First i came to the country at the age of 27-28, i was single, no responsibilities, i was lucky to have parents who were earning so comfortably and were comfortably well off that i could afford to go to school, focus on studies without having to worry about earning to afford living expenses like rent, food.

Even then it was very stressful seeing how discriminatory Canada is towards foreign work experience, foreign qualifications. I was lucky i could volunteer and work for free in NGO's, organizations and a few accountants to add some much needed local Canadian work experience but even it feels like exploitation.

An immigrant who comes to this country with a family, with responsibilities, with bills to pay, he does not have all these luxuries, he cannot afford to work for free, every decision he makes has to factor in his family as well, he has to decide whether is it worth it to go back to school and then apply for an entry level position in an uncertain economy? Also his wife most probably cannot afford to work either because one parent has to look after the kids at home.

Some immigrants just surrender and go back home coming to the conclusion this country is not for them. Some just accept the fact their professional lives are over and take up menial minimum wage jobs and sacrifice for their next generation. Some decide to go into other fields. Some wait it out and go to the US, UK, Middle East, Australia where they get rewarded for waiting it out and getting accepted into their fields. So many different ways of handling the situation.

Canada can't let everyone come in an d say "its a free for all". There needs to be a system, it isn't too racist either. Most of the immigrants has been from South Asia, very few are from Europe, even they are from poorer nation like Ireland, Ukraine and so on. This is the way how it works and it is going to continue to work. -

I think some desi's in Canada who identify more with Canada then their countries of origin are now taking it too personally when i talk about these harsh realities of Canada. The economic and intellectual racism that exists in Canada towards foreign immigrants is a fact and no matter how Canadians or More Canadian than Canadian desi's like to spin it, these facts won't change.

If this is how it is in Canada and how it is going to be in Canada then i don't blame the foreign immigrants who cheat the immigration system by faking their residency in Canada or become citizens of convenience only to wait for their passports to explore their rightful options else where.

It is the narrow minded nature of the Canadian populace where they feel by allowing immigrants to come into Canada, their local population will suffer rather looking at the numerous economic benefits immigrants can bring to the country, to the culture, new industries, employment and business opportunities, expansion opportunities if the immigrants are allowed to settle in.

It's funny how immigration is deemed to be harmful for Canada but beneficial for the US.

Many people prefer Canada that is why people are willing to come to Canada

People prefer Canada for many different reasons. But none of them have anything to do with tremendous love for the country of Canada. Some like the free health care system, social security in old age. Others like the easiest route to a Western passport. But you can't blame these people for these short sighted aims if they are subject to economic and intellectual racism in the country and scammed via the point system.

 

[AlphaFighter]

Jamaicans, Mexicans, Costa Ricans and many migrate as "skilled labours". So people do use that to get to Canada. Again the Point System was established in 1967 to remove earlier system that only welcomed Western Europeans. The Point System was established so people can come live in Canada based on skills and not on race. It has nothing to do with whether they can get the job they want or not brother. There is no "intellectual racism", they accept your qualification and that is why you are let into this country.

This is where this points system is deeply flawed. This point system needs to be reflective of the ground realities of the Canadian economy and society. Why is Canada letting in people when their primary qualifications and work experiences abroad have no value in Canada?

Is it because they wan't cheap labour for menial tasks? Why is it taking the Canadian govt 7-8 or even 10 years to grant Citizenship to certain people when it is a maximum of 4 year process when the people have even lived in this country?

If there is no demand for foreign doctors in Canada, then immigrants should be given zero points. If there is demand for Foreign Landscappers in Canada then these immigrants should be given full points. This is the system that should be in place which will make it win-win and free for all.

 

[Ironcat]

Regardless, all immigrants are making an investment which total up to $millions which means the govt of Canada is generating revenue ... ground is totally different.

Revenue are a dime a dozen if your costs are more. The world works based on profits. You earn $40K/year, but that is meaningless if your expenses total up to $60K. Every country, every quals program pretty much everywhere charges fees to cover their costs, and Canada is no different.

Yes, return my friend. If i am paying down a ton of money in terms of immigration fees, fees of acquiring help from immigration consultants, fees regarding medical tests, examinations and other associated costs, costs of travelling to Canada, bringing my life savings into the country...tralia, US and even UK, immigrants get better returns for all their investments, costs, sacrifices compared to Canada.

That cost is peanuts. All of that adds up to less than two weeks of the doctors' bills that you would have to foot if the healthcare was not free. It amounts to less than 4 weeks of the private school education that you were able to deflect because of the free education system. The immigrants are lining up to get in even with the lengthy wait times, so it does not matter what you and I think of the costs: for the immigrants, they matter nada. Zilch as you say. They see plenty of return.

The US has a population of 300 million people plus, inspite of 9/11 and many other unfortunate incidents it still accepts immigrants from all over the world, even from muslim countries that are on their hit list. Canada in comparison has a meager population of 30 million. I am pretty sure that the total number of immigrants in the US will total up to more than the total number of immigrants in Canada even if the fraction of populations is different.

Willing to testify to that? There is no country for lazymen.
Annual number of immigrants into the US for economic reasons: ~140K
Annual number of immigrants into Canada for economic reasons: ~160K

Economic reasons are those related to employability - i.e skills-based. Most (65%) of the US annual immigrants are on account of family sponsorship and immediate relations (like spouses) and are NOT skills-based.
Source: https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/ois_yb_2013_0.pdf

Just because a country is a democracy does not mean that there is no element of Govt control involved or the need for govt control to be involved. In the US this is not needed because the employers have the decency and ethical courtesy to actually embrace diversity in true spirit and accept fore ... fied foreign immigrants, giving proper feedback to foreign immigrants. All these sort of things will go a long way towards helping improve the dramatic under employment situation most qualified foreign immigrants find themselves in.

Canada has exactly the same workplace laws that the US does. Or maybe 95% the same. Practically the same. So, whatever complaints you have against the Canadian system apply equally to the US system. In the US, the per-capita incidence of highly skilled workers is lower (plus the natural workplace movement factors due to its size), which is why it is easier to find some types of jobs in the US. But, there is nothing forcing or preventing an employer to hire or not hire an individual based on their local vs foreign experience in the US. Please provide proof of your alternate theory.

Here is my proof of how the two versions are practically the same but with their 5% differences:
http://www.cwilson.com/resource/new...s-between-canadian-and-us-employment-law.html

This again is the classic Canadian biased mentality where the impression is given that if foreigners and immigrants are easily accepted into the system economically and socially it will result in lower standards. What exactly is so special about Canadian education and Canadian Work Experience that makes it more high quality compared to lets say American or European education and work experience?

That's one helluva goalpost shift. Previously, you were giving us examples of Pakistani quals becoming irrelevant in Canada. And now we are talking the US quals?

Canadian education system is no better than the US in aggregate. In fact, at the top end of the spectrum, the US education is the best in the world. But, there are hardly any issues encountered by the US-trained immigrants in coming over and settling down in Canada. Here is academic research confirming it:
http://strategy.sauder.ubc.ca/nakamura/Nakamura_Beach_Ed.pdf
Proves the points that if foreign quals are of good enough quality, Canadian companies will line up to hire you.

It is not a reality in the American, European or Middle Eastern Economy. People can easily re-train while being embraced and given respect for their foreign qualifications, work experiences. ... Again i ask you, what is so special about Canada's education, work experiences, systems that makes it of superior quality compared to the American system, European system, Middle eastern system? Why is that those lucky immigrants who without any Canadian education, work experience, the moment they break into the system end up comfortably outperforming their Canadian counter parts?

First of all, immigration into the Middle East is hardly a comparable here. It is so incredibly easy to move to the Middle East that it stinks. There is hardly any comparison of living standards - unless you are an Arab national. (As a foreigner, you can hardly ever become a national.) Most of the Middle East is not a democracy - entirely the opposite of Canada and the US. Some of the largest human rights issues take place in that part of the world. The Middle Eastern education system is a complete joke. Most of your arguments go down the drain if we switch over to the Middle East. See that?

See my response above for the US education system.

Western Eurpoean education system is at par with North America in aggregate, but exactly how many countries take in how many immigrants per year? I mean, how on earth can you compare, say, Germany (the largest EU economy) with the US and Canada when it takes only a handful of skills-based workers every year? How many of German companies entertain non-German-speaking hires?

So Pakistani qualified doctors who move to Canada now don't have the experience, specialty and skill set to operate on you?

In Canada and the US, yes, and most of them agree. If they didn't, they would leave in a heartbeat instead of attempting to reposition themselves in Canada. But that's just a snapshot today. These foreign qualified immigrants are also much harder working than the locals, or they would not be in Canada after a life-changing immigration experience. Meaning, if you give them time and the opportunity to learn, they will also become your biggest success stories. (Or their children will.)

This is what i mentioned, it is one thing for a Canadian to have this attitude but for a Desi to behave more Canadian than Canadian with a fellow Desi is the more serious issue and a classic example of everything that has gone wrong with our Muslim Ummah.

Attitude. Desi. Canadian. Muslim Ummah. One of these days I will be able to squueze more stereotypes in one sentence, but that day is not today.

What is so special about the Canadian system that North American doctors and UK qualified PHD's are driving taxi's in Toronto?

Please provide proof here for all of us that North American doctors are systematically driving taxis in Canada. Here, I have reserved some space for you:
[
[
[

Who are you and the country of Canada to tell these foreign qualified immigrants that there rightful just demands to be respected for their high quality foreign qualifications and work experiences acquired world wide is like demanding a short cut?

Read my post carefully. And slowly. I am Mr Nobody. Just another anonymous internet poster. But I am also the only person actually helping the struggling immigrants by not leading them down the garden path of foreign quals = instant job.

Like I said, no country for lazymen!

Actually people have filed several petitions in courts, human rights organizations and there is some work being done about this...

I'm sure we can find a random article or activist offering token frustration-driven activism as an excuse for procrastination. Look what I found:
http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/195861/

But - then - I look at what most of the world leaders agree with - such as:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/09/o...will-be-at-war-with-islam-islam-teaches-peace

So, in response to your links, I offer the following account of how the world views Canada:
http://www.vancitybuzz.com/2015/11/canada-named-worlds-most-tolerant-country/
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/08/19/best-place-to-live_n_5691413.html
http://globalnews.ca/news/2405032/canada-9th-best-country-to-live-in-un-human-development-index/

 

[Abdul]

Don't jinx it. It's been quite a warm December thus far. +2 Degrees Celsius as I type this in the night time + hasn't snowed yet.

I'm surprised about it to be honest - by this time usually there are snow mountains.

It doesn't feel like that Christmas is coming - but do I care about it? I guess not as long as I'm getting Christmas holidays ).

 

[AlphaFighter]

Canadian government is being honest. This is what they say before you apply to come on points based system: If you get an ECA, it does not guarantee you a job in your field or that you will be able to get a license in Canada. If you plan to work in an occupation that is regulated in Canada, you should contact the regulatory authority in the province where you plan to live. They can give you important information about getting your license, including any steps you can take before you leave your home country.

Do you think these regulatory agencies are honest with you in Canada, they will spin the same hog wash that if you upgrade your skills, experiences with Canadian standards you should be at par with the local population but what really happens in reality is totally different which people find out harshly at the very end.

If you are fully aware and still sacrifice for your next generation - I don't know how it is racism then? There are more than 200 countries to live in the world..

Ofcourse there are which is why immigrants once they get their pasport to live in other countries of the world as oppossed to Canada. There is a reason. If Canada exploited them then they reserve the right to use that passport to make their own sacrifices worth it.

1) Points based system is awarded for all professions (skilled more). You can't give 0 points to someone who is a professional. I don't know how it is a scam when the government clearly gives you the warning. -

Oh yes you can, if someone is a foreign qualified doctor but he will be totally worthless in Canada, he should be given zero points if he has zero employability. The fact he is being let into the country and then having to learn the hard way that everything he has done in his whole life is worthless is where the scam is. He should not have been allowed in the country in the first place.

4) And about the health care - yes there are some cases where people may have to wait for long but that is for some cases. Canadians have an access to fast and quality health care. It's a myth about wait times.

Regarding people going to US for health care - yes that's true but very rare. About 0.9% of Canadian population went to US for health treatment in 2013. I personally got treated in Canada for about 2 years (cancer chemotherapy) and my mother regularly went to seek medical attention. I have no complaints. You can't make everyone happy. Please don't compare private vs public institutions. If you really want compare the healthcare then do it with a country like UK. -

Granted no country in the world is perfect but then don't spin that Canada is the greatest country in the world to live in. It is not. There are plenty of faults with the economic system here.

 

[AlphaFighter]

He said his dad earns $700,000 a year. He probably pays about 48% in tax. Why are you surprised that his dad is paying nearly 50% in tax ? It is a norm to pay close to 45% to 48% in tax if you earn more than $500,000. Athletes and Artists pay 48%. Medical professionals close to 45% if they earn more than $500,000 in general.

Taxes are not the issue to be honest, not at all if you are getting all the benefits of social services, free health care and other benefits but lets also be honest that a tax bill of around $250,000-300,000 is still a lot of money and these benefits are not entirely free either. I sometimes wonder what is the incentive for people especially with employment income to work hard and to earn beyond a certain point if they have to give 50% of their hard earned income to the govt. I think 30% would be ideal.

 

[Ironcat]

This is where this points system is deeply flawed. This point system needs to be reflective of the ground realities of the Canadian economy and society. Why is Canada letting in people when their primary qualifications and work experiences abroad have no value in Canada?

Is it because they wan't cheap labour for menial tasks? Why is it taking the Canadian govt 7-8 or even 10 years to grant Citizenship to certain people when it is a maximum of 4 year process when the people have even lived in this country?

If there is no demand for foreign doctors in Canada, then immigrants should be given zero points. If there is demand for Foreign Landscappers in Canada then these immigrants should be given full points. This is the system that should be in place which will make it win-win and free for all.

Let's parse the logic of this post.

Currently, other than some trade-based skills, the points system rewards you for having qualifications and work experience in a large, broad set of occupations - where every such occupation is treated equally and fairly. You are not disadvantaged if you belong in any occupation.

Having brought up discrimination previously, the poster takes issue with this policy and offers the following:

"Ban certain occupations."

So, not only that the Canadian government should do the research for a clueless immigrant who does not know what skills are needed in today's economy in which part of the world before taking one of the biggest life-changing steps in his or her life, it should discriminate against immigrants applying with certain occupational skills even when those immigrants can:
- Retrain themselves
- Switch to a different occupation
- Provide their functional skills (vs industry-based) in a different industry
- Retire but parent their children
- Run their own businesses

Tell me if they can be lead astray with simply an open immigration policy, why don't they all migrate to Ecuador or Bermuda where their quals will be fully reciprocated?

 

[Ironcat]

So just because a person became a doctor in 5 years in Pakistan or Sub-continent makes him an inferior doctor to a Canadian doctor?

Is it the Pakistani doctor's fault that Canada has a top education system for doctors?

I can guarantee you that a doctor who spent 5 years in medical school in Pakistan can do a similarly adequate if not an even better job than a Doctor in Canada who spent 12 years in Canada to become a doctor.

Even the US has very tough standards for their own medical graduates but unlike Canada the US allows foreign doctors to give a few licencing exams and upon clearing them foreign doctors are given the right to us the title of MD. This is how it should be to make it fair for everyone.

Some of the responses here are very sad. Acting more Canadians than even Canadians do. Typical.

Let's parse the logic of this post as well.

As per this post, a 5-year doctor's training = 12-year doctor's training.

The poster can guarantee that the 5-year doctor can do a better job than the 12-year counterpart.

Yet, the poster considers it fair that, state side, it is perfectly fine to ask this super-doctor to take more licensing exams and residency requirements to become equivalent. Just that the number of such exams or requirements should be less than that in Canada.

Badabim badabum.

 

[AlphaFighter]

Revenue are a dime a dozen if your costs are more. The world works based on profits. You earn $40K/year, but that is meaningless if your expenses total up to $60K. Every country, every quals program pretty much everywhere charges fees to cover their costs, and Canada is no different.

So what is the Canadian govt getting out of all these fees of immigration if all that it is doing is covering their costs? Where is the return for them? How come the CIC and the immigration system hasn't collapsed? Surely the fees they are charging these immigrants has a significant profit margin for them.

That cost is peanuts. All of that adds up to less than two weeks of the doctors' bills that you would have to foot if the healthcare was not free. It amounts to less than 4 weeks of the private school education that you were able to deflect because of the free education system. The immigrants are lining up to get in even with the lengthy wait times, so it does not matter what you and I think of the costs: for the immigrants, they matter nada. Zilch as you say. They see plenty of return. -

Private school tuition is not free in Canada. Not all health care in Canada is free either. Prescription drugs, dental appointments are crazy expensive in Canada compared to countries like India and Pakistan where you can get similar if not better dental treatment at 5% of the cost compared to Canada.

The only reason my friend immigrants are lining up is to get that Canadian passport and get out of here. Others will make the sacrifice of coming here in order to give their next generation a shot in Canada or the US.

Willing to testify to that? There is no country for lazymen.
Annual number of immigrants into the US for economic reasons: ~140K
Annual number of immigrants into Canada for economic reasons: ~160K

Economic reasons are those related to employability - i.e skills-based. Most (65%) of the US annual immigrants are on account of family sponsorship and immediate relations (like spouses) and are NOT skills-based.

I think it is no secret that Canadian immigration and Citizenship is a lot easier to acquire compared to US Citizenship and immigration. But where the US beats Canada is when it comes to social and economic integration of family based immigrants as well.

Point being it is the family based immigrants in Canada who have to bear the brunt of the Intellectual and economic racism of the country. And no these people who were unable to find jobs in Canada in their fields successfully got them in other parts of the world. So only one country Canada is right but the rest of the world is wrong? The rest of the world has low standards and Canada is the only country in the world which has the highest standards?

Canada has exactly the same workplace laws that the US does. Or maybe 95% the same. Practically the same. So, whatever complaints you have against the Canadian system apply equally to the US system. In the US, the per-capita incidence of highly skilled workers is lower (plus the natural workplace movement factors due to its size), which is why it is easier to find some types of jobs in the US. But, there is nothing forcing or preventing an employer to hire or not hire an individual based on their local vs foreign experience in the US. Please provide proof of your alternate theory.

Here is my proof of how the two versions are practically the same but with their 5% differences:
http://www.cwilson.com/resource/news...yment-law.html - See more at: http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showthread.php?236079-Why-Canada-is-among-Top-Live-able-countries

Having the same work place laws means jack my friend if they are not implemented in the right spirit and intent. Laws don't make a difference if the men and society implementing them are biased, discriminatory and racist. Point being, the under employment of highly qualified immigrants based on what i have seen personally, based on the anecdotes of my many contacts in Canada and the US, is much higher in Canada compared to the US. Spin the critique of this any way you like but these justified perceptions of Canada especially among immigrants will not change just based on statistics alone.

That's one helluva goalpost shift. Previously, you were giving us examples of Pakistani quals becoming irrelevant in Canada. And now we are talking the US quals?

Canadian education system is no better than the US in aggregate. In fact, at the top end of the spectrum, the US education is the best in the world. But, there are hardly any issues encountered by the US-trained immigrants in coming over and settling down in Canada. Here is academic research confirming it:
http://strategy.sauder.ubc.ca/nakamu...a_Beach_Ed.pdf
Proves the points that if foreign quals are of good enough quality, Canadian companies will line up to hire you.

Well i can only comment on the numerous Pakistani origin US qualified doctors living in Canada who constantly bombard my dad for help on a regular basis with requests to help them get into the system. I can only comment on the fact that my aunt who has lived in Canada for 20 years, was a fully qualified Pakistani doctor, but decided to go to medical school in the US and do all her practical training over there and is now even applying for positions in the Buffalo region inside the US after receiving numerous rejections for the past 20 years in Canada.

And ofcourse i have been shocked when i met Harvard and Oxford graduates who testified to the fact that they had also been struggling quite badly for months to get interview calls and when they had also been told that their US education, work experience falls short of Canadian standards.

Sure one of my uncles did a PHD from the top Engineering college in Virginia, US and managed to get a job in Canada after submitting his 250th resume in his 2nd week but such success stories are few and far between.

There are statistics and then there are examples you see in front of you.

First of all, immigration into the Middle East is hardly a comparable here. It is so incredibly easy to move to the Middle East that it stinks. There is hardly any comparison of living standards - unless you are an Arab national. (As a foreigner, you can hardly ever become a national.) Most of the Middle East is not a democracy - entirely the opposite of Canada and the US. Some of the largest human rights issues take place in that part of the world. The Middle Eastern education system is a complete joke. Most of your arguments go down the drain if we switch over to the Middle East. See that?

See my response above for the US education system.

Western Eurpoean education system is at par with North America in aggregate, but exactly how many countries take in how many immigrants per year? I mean, how on earth can you compare, say, Germany (the largest EU economy) with the US and Canada when it takes only a handful of skills-based workers every year? How many of German companies entertain non-German-speaking hires? -

Again your generalizations that the Middle East education system is a joke compared to Canada and the US? Then why does the US accomodate many Middle eastern immigrants and allow them easy access to jobs compared to Canada?

So are you saying that a middle eastern guy will never outperform his Canadian counter part?

The European countries not allowing immigrants is perfectly fine, atleast they are being honest with them that they are not needed in those countries and that there are no economic opportunities with them. In comparison Canada on the other hand dishonestly awards immigrants points on the basis of their foreign education, foreign work experience which have no standing in Canada.

Please provide proof here for all of us that North American doctors are systematically driving taxis in Canada. Here, I have reserved some space for you:
[
[
[

I wish i had taken photographs or snapshots. But once again i repeat the amount of North American qualified doctors living in Canada for the last 6-8 years working as ultra sound artists, driving a cab, working as secretaries who have either contacted me for help to connecting with my dad or my dad directly. I just wish i took a snapshot.

I still find it unbelievable as to how the media has failed to cover the plight of these people.

Read my post carefully. And slowly. I am Mr Nobody. Just another anonymous internet poster. But I am also the only person actually helping the struggling immigrants by not leading them down the garden path of foreign quals = instant job.

Like I said, no country for lazymen! -

More of the same rubbish insinuation from you that immigrants who come to Canada and refuse to accept that their foreign qualifications, work experiences are worthless are lazymen when these people have gone outside Canada after being out of there fields for 4-6 years and still gotten decent jobs.

So one country i.e. Canada has the best standards in the world, other countries like the US, UK, Australia, Middle East are all countries with lower standards right?

I'm sure we can find a random article or activist offering token frustration-driven activism as an excuse for procrastination. Look what I found:
http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/195861/

But - then - I look at what most of the world leaders agree with - such as:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/09/ob...-teaches-peace

So, in response to your links, I offer the following account of how the world views Canada:
http://www.vancitybuzz.com/2015/11/c...erant-country/
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/08...n_5691413.html
http://globalnews.ca/news/2405032/ca...lopment-index/ - See more at: http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showthread.php?236079-Why-Canada-is-among-Top

You asked me why don't you go to the UN, i responded there are people who are actively trying to address the hidden economic and intellectual racism and immigration system in Canada. These articles don't mean anything.

It is perfectly understandable that people who have made it in Canada will naturally forget their roots, their struggle but i personally will not do that. I will not adopt the attitude of being more Canadian than Canadian with fellow struggling desis and Pakistani's, i will always call a spade a spade and address the world's attention towards the economic and intellectual racism that Canada has towards foreign qualified immigrants.

 

[Ironcat]

Let's parse some of the logic of this post as well. Most of it has already been addressed. I'll focus on the new bits.

To think that a country like the US gives you something on a platter is naive my friend. Even foreign doctors, foreign engineers in the US have to pass certain exams to come to the US standards but the difference between Canada and the US is that Canada asks you to go back to school completely from the very beginning while the US will ask you to give 1-2 exams only before being professionally accepted into the system, in some cases the US economy even allows you to apply for other jobs based on your foreign work experience where those skills are transferable but sadly that is not the case in Canada.

The choice is pretty simple. Such individuals should head down to the states. Why are they in Canada wasting everyone's time? I see. US actually doesn't want them. Limited skills-based immigration policy. So, they have to go down the route of Carribeans >> entry-level opportunity in the US >> long wait >> full license. Now, who would choose this route? Someone who couldn't make the cut through the normal process. And apparently this makes the US "more open to foreign immigrants".

As a lot of struggling immigrants in Canada have proven after they acquired their Canadian pp and immediately got jobs in the US, UK, Australia or Middle east even though they were out of their fields for a good 4-5 years, the problem was not with these candidates, they were not loosers, they did not lack skills, intelligence, it was the country of Canada which chose to discriminate against them in favor of lesser qualified, lesser experienced and in some cases local high school graduates.

First of all, if someone is looking at Australia and the Middle East as a career choice over North America today, God bless them.

If Canada treats someone like you mention it has, then sure - that individual should bolt away immediately. The numbers are against this theory, however, Canadian population is increasing faster than that in the US, so the net-net effect is that people are staying.

 

[JaDed]

Proud of this employer . Even a Harvard student is rejected cause he isn't a Canadian educated. India or Ethiopia. Pakistan or Poland. If you aren't educated in Canada, you aren't getting the job.

[MENTION=137142]JaDed[/MENTION] this is our kind of conservatism

 

[Cracket]

Low population, big area, very liberal and open society.

 

[Ironcat]

So what is the Canadian govt getting out of all these fees of immigration if all that it is doing is covering their costs? Where is the return for them? How come the CIC and the immigration system hasn't collapsed? Surely the fees they are charging these immigrants has a significant profit margin for them.

Ever heard of something called taxes? Those taxes pay for everything. Those taxes are levied on earnings of people like your dad - so we can have new immigrants join us.

Private school tuition is not free in Canada. Not all health care in Canada is free either. Prescription drugs, dental appointments are crazy expensive in Canada compared to countries like India and Pakistan where you can get similar if not better dental treatment at 5% of the cost compared to Canada.

Missed the point entirely, I see. Read my post slowly. And carefully.

Private school education costs money, but you can go to a roughly equivalent public school for free. That's what it would have cost you if you did not have the free education system.

Prescription drugs are crazy expensive in Canada? Read this for starters:
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=129359

The only reason my friend immigrants are lining up is to get that Canadian passport and get out of here. Others will make the sacrifice of coming here in order to give their next generation a shot in Canada or the US.

Numbers are against this theory. If there was any truth in it, you would see the population at a stable level. It is growing more than that in the US.

I think it is no secret that Canadian immigration and Citizenship is a lot easier to acquire compared to US Citizenship and immigration. But where the US beat....ho were unable to find jobs in Canada in their fields successfully got them in other parts of the world. So only one country Canada is right but the rest of the world is wrong? The rest of the world has low standards and Canada is the only country in the world which has the highest standards?

Now the goalpost has been shifted from discrimination based on skills and jobs to family and spouses. So, you agree that Canada is more open than the US when it comes to skills-based immigration? I mean, did you even read the numbers I posted?

Having the same work place laws means jack my friend if they are not implemented in the right spirit and intent. Laws don't make a difference if the men and society implementing them are biased, discriminatory and racist. Point being, the under employment of highly qualified immigrants based on what i have seen personally, based on the anecdotes of my many contacts in Canada and the US, is much higher in Canada compared to the US. Spin the critique of this any way you like but these justified perceptions of Canada especially among immigrants will not change just based on statistics alone.

Laws don't make a difference? You mean, non-Arab employees of Arab business have more protection in the UAE than the employees do in the US and Canada?

Laws don't make the difference, eh. Weren't you recommending a fine or penalty a few posts ago on Canadian employers for discrimination? Would those be good-faith fines, or should we propose a law to make those businesses pay the fines?

Laws don't make a difference. When I think I have heard everything....

And ofcourse i have been shocked when i met Harvard and Oxford graduates who testified to the fact that they had also been struggling quite badly for months to get interview calls and when they had also been told that their US education, work expe ... There are statistics and then there are examples you see in front of you.

First of all, these are not statistics. These are anecdotes. For everyone of yours you are going to post, I can quote 5 others that disprove the same thing. But that means nada. I would recommend that instead of rushing to type up a response next time, read the academic research article I linked. It actually uses "stats" and peer-reviewed academic work to make a point. Not our mutual anecdotes.

Again your generalizations that the Middle East education system is a joke compared to Canada and the US? Then why does the US accomodate many Middle eastern immigrants and allow them easy access to jobs compared to Canada?

So are you saying that a middle eastern guy will never outperform his Canadian counter part?

All I know of the Middle Eastern immigrants into the US is that they face a lot of struggle. Least of all based on religion. Those who do well are the families of well-to Arabs, who actually don't need the money. Again, I cannot prove this point, but I won't buy yours either - because the numbers in the US immigration stats link I posted actually tells you how many Middle Eastern immigrants were accepted into the US.

The European countries not allowing immigrants is perfectly fine, atleast they are being honest with them that they are not needed in those countries and that there are no economic opportunities with them. In comparison Canada on the other hand dishonestly awards immigrants points on the basis of their foreign education, foreign work experience which have no standing in Canada.

If an immigrant needs a country's government to do its research for scope of work, then the immigrant is not ready for immigration. He or she has no business venturing out in the world without first doing his or her career due diligence.

More of the same rubbish insinuation from you that immigrants who come to Canada and refuse to accept that their foreign qualifications, work experiences are worthless are lazymen when these people have gone outside Canada after being out of there fields for 4-6 years and still gotten decent jobs.

No, they haven't. They showed up in Canada with their less rigorous quals and were not given the same level of work due to this reason, so they studied and worked hard. Only then they were able to use these Canadian quals to emigrate to a different country. Emigrated based on Canadian quals, NOT their foreign quals. Whether such individuals should have ever been invited into Canada is a separate discussion.

You asked me why don't you go to the UN, i responded there are people who are actively trying to address the hidden economic and intellectual racism and immigration system in Canada. These articles don't mean anything.

Let me try again. The point of my post was that the rest of the world does not agree with the viewpoint you seem to have. That you are in Canada in the first place tells us all we need to know. You consider this country a net asset to your life. You did not leave after the first year. You did not leave yet. Congrats, you have done the hard work - and now you just put your head down and let it all get better for you.

Canada is not without its flaws, but it is one of the best among its peers in the world.

 

[Justcrazy]

You seek to enter Canada to start a new life and Canada provides you just that. They don't promise you a high paying job, because you studied your ass off back home. Canada wants well educated people who will be an asset to Canada. I don't want to sound like an a-hole but if you are moving to Canada you should have done research about your new country that you are going to spend rest of your life in, it makes sense doesn't it ? You might be asking "why the point system ?". It is a good question, the point system was established to welcome people based on their qualification and not based on race, religion, gender or sexuality. So if you are "qualified" you get into Canada, because you are "qualified" you aren't promised a life that you lived back home.

Why Educated people ? If Canada immigration department already knows that those occupations do not have jobs , then no point in dividing immigrants into occupation class.

The kind of jobs they want to fill up does not require those education . No point in promoting underemployment in the country.

 

[Justcrazy]

[MENTION=5942]AlphaFighter[/MENTION] if you had been educated in Canada you would know that advantage you have over living in US. Canada does more to new comers than US, because you spent money coming here that doesn't mean you deserve all the flower garlands. It is like saying " I paid so much money for my college but the teacher didn't give me an A+". You knew what you were getting into. You wanted a better life, and you got yourself one of the best country in the world to live. If you aren't happy about being in this position, you can always go back (not to sound rude) but then you aren't because you found this life much better than where you lived, so you stayed here. Same goes to many others.

Canada Immigrants does make promise of several things. They promote the country in a very different way.

The example of teacher and student you gave is not right.

In a school when you give exams , you start on simillar footing , all the examinees . Here the system is designed to make sure that the outside people ( immigrants ) are made to work in low paid jobs foreever.

I agree , that home students can have some advantage , but Government should try and have bridging courses , so that immigrants can also get into labour market a bit faster.

 

[HuzaifaAzam3]

Yes there might be high taxes, but it depends. I think people who make less than 30k a year don't get taxed and people who make more than 150 get taxed 40%. Middle class get taxed around 15 to 20 %

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[HuzaifaAzam3]

I am a teenage muslim in Canada and I am grateful to live here since it is a multicultural land where all relegions are accepted and appreciated. But every country has a few racist thugs. Canada has its fair share outside the toronto area (GTA) in the rural areas

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[Black Zero]

Its shame that we are NOT #1 as in 1990s Canada regularly topped the chart...

Following (old) article describes why Canada rank so low lately:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/glob...-never-the-no-1-place-to-live/article9942689/

 

[AlphaFighter]

The choice is pretty simple. Such individuals should head down to the states. Why are they in Canada wasting everyone's time? I see. US actually doesn't want them. Limited skills-based immigration policy. So, they have to go down the route of Carribeans >> entry-level opportunity in the US >> long wait >> full license. Now, who would choose this route? Someone who couldn't make the cut through the normal process. And apparently this makes the US "more open to foreign immigrants". -

Just because the US doesn't want them doesn't portray the US negatively or in a bad light, they are atleast being honest with them that they have no need for them and that is atleast better than letting them in the country after taking their fees, making them spend all their savings while they realize they have nothing to offer to their new country in terms of their qualifications, experience and they have to start from scratch all over again.

Openness involves being honest rather than being deceitful. Bottomline the facts are that immigrants in the US who move there via either skills based or family based immigration tend to benefit immensely from the fact that their foreign qualifications, experiences are respected in that country and ofcourse if they want to really do well in the country then they have the option of further upgrading their education, skills or getting even better local certifications, degrees unlike Canada which totally disrespects foreign qualifications, experiences in a discriminatory and scamming manner to protect the local population of high school graduates and in some cases drop outs.

First of all, if someone is looking at Australia and the Middle East as a career choice over North America today, God bless them.

What exactly is wrong with Australia as a career choice? Our Cricket coach Waqar Younis lives in Australia with his family. Australia does not have a situation where immigrants are required to posses Australian work experience or education alone unlike Canada.

What exactly is wrong with the Middle East where you have the ability to earn $300,000-400,000 plus per year Tax Free with the life style of servants and other luxuries?

If Canada treats someone like you mention it has, then sure - that individual should bolt away immediately. The numbers are against this theory, however, Canadian population is increasing faster than that in the US, so the net-net effect is that people are staying.

At the end of the day the US has a population of 350 million people, Canada only a tenth of that and the reason why so many immigrants are flocking to Canada is because of the easy to access immigration and citizenship, not for any great love of the country. Sure some of the lucky ones who manage to catch a lucky break and get into the system and their fields successfully, choose to adopt the country as their home land but those not so lucky either suck it up and bear the cost for their next generation or immediately move to the US, UK, Australia or the Middle East where they get the employment that their foreign qualifications, work experiences merit them unlike the country of Canada which chose to discriminate against them.

 

[Ironcat]

Just because the US doesn't want them doesn't portray the US negatively or in a bad light, they are atleast being honest with them that they have no n ... .. cts foreign qualifications, experiences in a discriminatory and scamming manner to protect the local population of high school graduates and in some cases drop outs.

I have already addressed the non-existent fees issues previously. I have addressed the points system logic previously as well. Feel free to respond to those posts.

I have seen the equating of requirement to work hard with 'getting scammed' numerous times previously - and those stores don't end well. It is better that such 'conned' immigrants simply leave the country as soon as they can. Clearly, the high living standards as agreed upon by most of the world are not worth much to them.

What exactly is wrong with Australia as a career choice? Our Cricket coach Waqar Younis lives in Australia with his family. Australia does not have a situation where immigrants are required to posses Australian work experience or education alone unlike Canada.

Are you aware of the racism against South Asians in Australia? Read:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_against_Indians_in_Australia_controversy

Are you aware of what is happening to Australian economy? Read:
http://www.dailyreckoning.com.au/wh...oints-to-an-economic-recession-cw/2015/10/16/

Are you aware of what is happening to Australian home prices? Read:
http://www.dailyreckoning.com.au/ho...2016-why-a-recession-is-coming-cw/2015/10/13/

Are you aware of Australia's direct dependency on Chinese imports? And do you know what is happening to Chinese imports? Read:
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-34759608

What exactly is wrong with the Middle East where you have the ability to earn $300,000-400,000 plus per year Tax Free with the life style of servants and other luxuries?

Most of the Middle Eastern arguments were debunked above. The average Middle Eastern GDP (i.e. income) is $16K per capita compared to $45K or so in North America. Middle Eastern economies are under severe revenue pressure due to oil prices tanking to $35/BBL. War, ISIS, and unrest are growing. Education and health systems are mostly inconsistent or below average. The only real democracy is Iran, which is heavily sanctioned. Whoever earns $300K in the UAE can earn >$1MM in North America through hard work. There is overwhelming discrimination against non-Arabs.

The only difference is, there is absolutely no long-term future: you must bring your kids back, you must find another country to give you nationality, and you must buy a property somewhere else. Why on earth would I want to live in such a place compared to North America?

At the end of the day the US has a population of 350 million people, Canada only a tenth of that and the reason why so many immigrants are flocking to Canada is because of the easy to access immigration and citizenship, not for any great love of the country. S...e employment that their foreign qualifications, work experiences merit them unlike the country of Canada which chose to discriminate against them.

Like I said, there are no numbers to back this theory. Canadian population is growing the fastest among all - so most of the immigrants are staying. (No one moves to the US for 'the love of the country' either.)

 

[AlphaFighter]

Ever heard of something called taxes? Those taxes pay for everything. Those taxes are levied on earnings of people like your dad - so we can have new immigrants join us.

Pretty inefficient use of taxes if you ask me if all the country is doing is bringing in immigrants whose qualifications and experiences are being wasted and not being put to use for the benefit of the country.

Missed the point entirely, I see. Read my post slowly. And carefully.

Private school education costs money, but you can go to a roughly equivalent public school for free. That's what it would have cost you if you did not have the free education system.

Prescription drugs are crazy expensive in Canada?

While low fees or non-existent fees for public schools might be an advantage. But i have seen many Muslim families hesitate to send their kids to these schools out of fear of bad influences. It is hardly a serious advantage of religious muslim parents looking to raise their kids in an environment where while they embrace the country they are living in while respecting their own religion and customs.

Numbers are against this theory. If there was any truth in it, you would see the population at a stable level. It is growing more than that in the US.

As explained previously this is because of Canada's easy to access immigration and citizenship policy compared to the US. This doesn't mean that immigrants love Canada more than the US or that Canada is a ten times better place than the US.

Now the goalpost has been shifted from discrimination based on skills and jobs to family and spouses. So, you agree that Canada is more open than the US when it comes to skills-based immigration? I mean, did you even read the numbers I posted?

By Skills based immigration i assume Canada is hiring immigrants and allowing them to enter the country after giving them job offers. That is fantastic and how the system should be in the first place.

But it is without a doubt that family based immigrants in the US are much more readily accepted economically in the US compared to Canada and are not discriminated on the basis of their foreign education, foreign work experiences compared to Canada.

Laws don't make a difference? You mean, non-Arab employees of Arab business have more protection in the UAE than the employees do in the US and Canada?

Laws don't make the difference, eh. Weren't you recommending a fine or penalty a few posts ago on Canadian employers for discrimination? Would those be good-faith fines, or should we propose a law to make those businesses pay the fines?

Laws don't make a difference. When I think I have heard everything....

Yes what good is a law which talks about equality, no discrimination on the basis of religion, culture, heritage if it is not implemented in true spirit. Isn't that equally as worse as having than having no laws?

Laws are only as good as their implementation.

First of all, these are not statistics. These are anecdotes. For everyone of yours you are going to post, I can quote 5 others that disprove the same thing. But that means nada. I would recommend that instead of rushing to type up a response next time, read the academic research article I linked. It actually uses "stats" and peer-reviewed academic work to make a point. Not our mutual anecdotes.

Its funny how people dismiss W63L35 statistics when they expose Misbah on the basis the stats are skewed, biased, lacked neutrality. How about extending this argument to these statistics then? Do you seriously think Statistics will prove anything to people who see a different reality on the streets and the country in question on a day to day basis? No.

All I know of the Middle Eastern immigrants into the US is that they face a lot of struggle. Least of all based on religion. Those who do well are the families of well-to Arabs, who actually don't need the money. Again, I cannot prove this point, but I won't buy yours either - because the numbers in the US immigration stats link I posted actually tells you how many Middle Eastern immigrants were accepted into the US

Every country has some forms of religious discrimination, no country is perfect. The situation in the US became worse after 9/11 but i know of so many struggling immgirants who found jobs in their fields in the US even in the worst recession in the US in 2008-9 as compared to Canada which was not as seriously affected.

Heck immigrants in Canada will still struggle even if there is a massive economic boom in the country.

If an immigrant needs a country's government to do its research for scope of work, then the immigrant is not ready for immigration. He or she has no business venturing out in the world without first doing his or her career due diligence.

Research by one's self is one thing and a seperate topic but the govt should not lie and should not bring these immigrants into the country via the point based system which when the immigrants come to the country realize is a total lie and scam. The govt should honestly not give these immigrants any points for professions that are just not in demand and respected in Canada. Immigrants want to come to Canada for a variety of reasons, you cannot blame them for wanting to come to Canada to get the Citizenship.

No, they haven't. They showed up in Canada with their less rigorous quals and were not given the same level of work due to this reason, so they studied and worked hard. Only then they were able to use these Canadian quals to emigrate to a different country. Emigrated based on Canadian quals, NOT their foreign quals. Whether such individuals should have ever been invited into Canada is a separate discussion. -

Not really, a lot of them got decent jobs in another country on the basis of their past non-canadian work experience, non-canadian qualifications and with the help of the Canadian passport.

Let me try again. The point of my post was that the rest of the world does not agree with the viewpoint you seem to have. That you are in Canada in the first place tells us all we need to know. You consider this country a net asset to your life. You did not leave after the first year. You did not leave yet. Congrats, you have done the hard work - and now you just put your head down and let it all get better for you.

Canada is not without its flaws, but it is one of the best among its peers in the world. -

I am actually waiting to get my Canadian passport in a few months and looking to spend atleast 2-3 years working in accounting and getting my CPA designation. I am also looking to get engaged to someone soon. My parents just recently got a greencard holder and are making plans for me accordingly.

 

[AlphaFighter]

I wonder why do some many Canadian desi's take it so personally when it is mentioned that countries like US, UK, Australia and in the middle east are better places for jobs for foreign educated, foreign experienced expatriates?

Ultimately a person really cares about is getting a decent high paying job in the field he has studied in and not to be humiliatingly under employed.

 

[Ironcat]

Pretty inefficient use of taxes if you ask me if all the country is doing is bringing in immigrants whose qualifications and experiences are being wasted and not being put to use for the benefit of the country.

Those immigrants don't quite agree with you. They pay those fees and come in huge numbers.

While low fees or non-existent fees for public schools might be an advantage. But i have seen many Muslim families hesitate to send their kids to these s..r kids in an environment where while they embrace the country they are living in while respecting their own religion and customs.

I think you either need to provide some proof of these seemingly made-up stories - or some data. I would also advise you to broaden your social network to collect your so-called 'anecdotes'. I cannot relate to any of these experiences, sorry.

As explained previously this is because of Canada's easy to access immigration and citizenship policy compared to the US. This doesn't mean that immigrants love Canada more than the US or that Canada is a ten times better place than the US.

No one needs to "love" Canada. Or the US. They need to immigrate and have a happy life while providing their dues to the societies. There are plenty of countries in the world where you can emigrate to. Why Canada? Why not Ecuador or Bermuda? Or any Eurpoean country?

By Skills based immigration i assume Canada is hiring immigrants and allowing them to enter the country after giving them job offers. That is fantastic and how the system ...on the basis of their foreign education, foreign work experiences compared to Canada.

I dont see why any person with any foreign qualification would be preferred over a local replica anywehere in the world unless (A) you have run out of locals or (B) the foriegn qualified person accepts a significantly lower pay. I have already asked this question before. Why should anyone not prefer the local replica?

Yes what good is a law which talks about equality, no discrimination on the basis of religion, culture, heritage if it is not imple .. their implementation.

Its funny how people dismiss W63L35 statistics when ... and the country in question on a day to day basis? No.

If you want to question why laws are irrelevant or numbers are irrelevant, open a separate thread - because none of those arguments have anything to do with Canada. If you want a debate and want people to believe you, you better provide some arguments using these resoruces.

Every country has some forms of religious discrimination, no country is perfect. The situation in the US became worse after 9/11 but i know of so many struggling immgirants who found jobs in their fields in the US even in the worst recession in the US in 2008-9 as compared to Canada which was not as seriously affected...e economic boom in the country.

Again. No real backup, or proof. So - I have nothing to add to this chain of thought.

Research by one's self is one thing and a seperate topic but the govt should not lie and should not bring these immigrants into the country via the point based system which when the immigrants come to the country...st not in demand and respected in Canada. Immigrants want to come to Canada for a variety of reasons, you cannot blame them for wanting to come to Canada to get the Citizenship.

Nobody else in the world believes that Canadian governemnt is lying. Look at Canada's internatonal rankings. No immigrant believes so either. Look at how many coming every year.

I have already addresssed the points system previously.

Not really, a lot of them got decent jobs in another country on the basis of their past non-canadian work experience, non-canadian qualifications and with the help of the Canadian passport.

Again, no proof, no backup, no data. Sorry.

I am actually waiting to get my Canadian passport in a few months and looking to spend atleast 2-3 years working in accounting and getting my CPA designation. I am also looking to get engaged to someone soon. My parents just recently got a greencard holder and are making plans for me accordingly.

So, why get your CPA designation? I am sure you prior skills will be more than acceptable in the US? Why wait for your passport?

 

[Justcrazy]

Yes there might be high taxes, but it depends. I think people who make less than 30k a year don't get taxed and people who make more than 150 get taxed 40%. Middle class get taxed around 15 to 20 %

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less than 30 K do not get taxed ?

 

[AlphaFighter]

Those immigrants don't quite agree with you. They pay those fees and come in huge numbers. -

For the reasons i have mentioned i.e. easiest and fastest access to Immigration and Citizenship and the Canadian passport compared to any other western country in the world.

I think you either need to provide some proof of these seemingly made-up stories - or some data. I would also advise you to broaden your social network to collect your so-called 'anecdotes'. I cannot relate to any of these experiences, sorry.

Ofcourse you cannot relate to any of these issues and experiences when you have no sympathy for the struggles, plight, injustices committed against foreign qualified, foreign educated and foreign experienced immigrants to Canada.

Though personally i myself don't agree with the complaints a lot of muslim families have how the west is bad when it comes to the upbringing of their children when they themselves made the decision to come and move here.

No one needs to "love" Canada. Or the US. They need to immigrate and have a happy life while providing their dues to the societies. There are plenty of countries in the world where you can emigrate to. Why Canada? Why not Ecuador or Bermuda? Or any Eurpoean country? -

Again as i repeat because Canada provides the easiest route to immigration and citizenship compared to other western countries, because they want to make full use of the Canadian passport once they get it. It is the fault of the Canadian society, Canadian govt that many foreign qualified, foreign educated, foreign experienced immigrants end up becoming citizens of convenience at the end of the day.

I dont see why any person with any foreign qualification would be preferred over a local replica anywehere in the world unless (A) you have run out of locals or (B) the foriegn qualified person accepts a significantly lower pay. I have already asked this question before. Why should anyone not prefer the local replica?

This might be your nationalistic way of thinking and your preferred policy towards Canadian locals vis a vis foreign educated, foreign qualified, foreign work experienced immigrants but a comparison between the plight of foreign educated, foreign qualified, foreign work experienced immigrants overall will show that countries like USA, UK, Australia give more respect to the foreign qualifications, foreign work experience, foreign education of immigrants while giving them the added incentive that if they upgrade their qualifications while opting for local qualifications they can progress even better, faster and integrate better unlike Canada which tells these foreign immigrants to get lost and start completely from scratch both academically and professionally.

Nobody else in the world believes that Canadian governemnt is lying. Look at Canada's internatonal rankings. No immigrant believes so either. Look at how many coming every year. -

Ofcourse they do, but people act in their own self interest, some come to collect the passport and make use of it to get better options in other countries later on, some choose to make the sacrifice of giving up their professional careers in Canada so that there second generation can have a bright future, some people who were not doing any better in their country of origin feel it is perhaps better to live hand to mouth in a country which atleast offers better security, law and order and basic social services.

Now that the Canadian govt is making immigration harder and harder to acquire, the numbers will obviously suffer accordingly.

I have already addresssed the points system previously. -

So have i addressed the fraudulent aspect of it\

So, why get your CPA designation? I am sure you prior skills will be more than acceptable in the US? Why wait for your passport? -

CPA designation is something i have personally always wanted to achieve. My parents have always had this wish and desire that i become a CPA one day. Yes i already have an MBA from the top business school in Pakistan but sadly in Canada, it has become totally worthless to the point that i even stopped identifying with my prior school in the last 3 years that i have been here.

But having said that people from the US that i have met whenever i have shown them my resume for feedback have always commented that i shouldn't have a problem in getting a decent office job based on my Pakistani education, Pakistani work experience alone but if i were to supplement that with a Canadian University degree, Canadian Work Experience and a Canadian prestigious accounting designation such as the CPA, then my prospects would be even more brighter.

I will assess my future options as time goes on.

 

[vndrlylgeek]

The new life should be an even better life than the one you enjoyed in your previous home country.

Some immigrants man up and even return back to their home countries within a few months after seeing the ground realities of the new country. I think its also human nature because someone who is extremely highly qualified, someone who is extremely experienced and accomplished professionally and socially, even when he or she does his research about the Canadian experience barrier for immigrants in Canada, they tend to adopt the attitude, surely i can crack this as i speak very good fluent english, i have the education, experience, surely it can't be that bad. The sad part is that it indeed is that bad, it is always much worse than you initially envisioned.

This points system is where exactly the scam is my dear friend. Sure, i accept the argument that every country in the world has the right to have their own policies, systems, culture and even the right to protect their own indiginous population from foreign immigrants but then they should have the guts to be extremely transparent about it. Make the points system reflective of the ground realities in Canada. If foreign medical degrees, qualifications, experiences are not valued, in high demand in Canada then there should be no points for it. But if the govt is giving you a lot of points for medical degrees, foreign medical experiences to allow you to come into Canada but upon landing you are made to feel extremely unwanted by the society as a whole, then that is just a scam.

Mark my words this grotesque exploitation of foreign immigrants in Canada will bite the country really badly one day. As it is a lot of immigrants view Canada as a stepping stone for the passport to go to countries like the US, Australia, Middle East for better options and why shouldn't they? Everyone has the right to make the best decision for themselves at the end of the day depending on their circumstances, if the country of Canada is not accepting these immigrants economically then these Immigrants and future Canadian Citizens have the right to make use of their sacrifice of waiting it out for 4-5 years for the Passport and get what they truly deserve on merit in the US, UK, Australia or the Middle East.

Your new life will be better than your previous one if you want it to be. This is something I often argue with people about. Yes, it is EXTREMELY difficult to land on your feet when you first arrive in Canada. The Canadian experience barrier IS hard to crack, but you have to be willing to spend some time on getting Canadian credentials to help you find a job in your field. More importantly, you have to be willing to work REALLY HARD and not get your ego hurt if it doesn't pan out initially. At the rate Canada accepts immigrants (although it's a much more refined process now and it seems to take forever), of course it's hard to land on your feet.

I moved to Canada with my family in 2004 when I was 13. My dad is a civil engineer and he was in the military. 8 months after he retired, we were at Pearson in the middle of December. It was -11 degrees that day. And I remember the first couple of years very well. It was rough. My dad told me the same thing, he never thought it would be the way it is. He felt dejected and his army officer ego was hurting. He worked as a security guard overnight and many other odd jobs. But he worked REALLY hard when he wasn't working. He upgraded his education, took a couple of online courses and kept trying. Within 6 months of us landing in Toronto, he found a job as a project manager at a construction firm on salary. Fast forward another couple of years, he found a job as a project manager at the Department of National Defence where he still works. I don't mean to brag or anything, but I was there... I know how difficult it was for my dad, but he did it. And he's always told me the same thing, and it sounds cliche, but if you're willing to work hard, you can make an amazing life for yourself and your family in Canada.

I know many people and families who adopt the "This country doesn't care about us and we're unwanted here" or "why isn't my Pakistani experience valid here" attitude and they either return home or work a dead end job for the rest of their lives. And that's fine, but you can't blame the system entirely if you aren't willing to put the proper amount of effort. I agree that the system is a bit flawed in terms of recognizing previous work experience from around the globe, but that's just how it is. It's not impossible to crack it.

Canada loves immigrants. The people here love everyone in this country and there are lots of opportunities if you're willing to work for it.

 

[AlphaFighter]

Your new life will be better than your previous one if you want it to be. This is something I often argue with people about. Yes, it is EXTREMELY difficult to land on your feet when you first arrive in Canada. The Canadian experience barrier IS hard to crack, but you have to be willing to spend some time on getting Canadian credentials to help you find a job in your field. More importantly, you have to be willing to work REALLY HARD and not get your ego hurt if it doesn't pan out initially. At the rate Canada accepts immigrants (although it's a much more refined process now and it seems to take forever), of course it's hard to land on your feet.

It is unfair to call the struggling immigrants who come here in there late 30's, early to late 40's as not being hard working, motivated, not having enough drive. Remember these same people who were out of their fields for 4-5 years in Canada once they end up getting the Canadian passport, succeed in getting jobs in the US, UK, Australia and the Middle East in their fields strictly on the basis of their foreign work experience, foreign education and qualifications. So the real issue with them was not that they lacked skills, lacked qualifications, lacked ambition of were losers, the real issue was that the country and economy of Canada chose to discriminate against them and not give them a chance.

I know of people who have done Canadian courses, achieved Canadian degrees while working odd jobs but still failed to get jobs in their field in Canada.

People don't realize how humiliating, demoralizing and depressing it can be the longer you go on without working in your field, if you get no interview calls, if you constantly get rejected in interviews even if you did give a decent interview, supply-demand problems e.t.c.. It can wreck a person's phsyche and cause family problems. You have to sympathize with the plight of these immigrants and you cannot blame these people for opting to become citizens of convenience and use the Canadian passport to try their luck else where. Similarly you cannot blame these immigrants for eventually just settling down for menial jobs in the hope that the sacrifices they made for their future generations are worth it.

I moved to Canada with my family in 2004 when I was 13. My dad is a civil engineer and he was in the military. 8 months after he retired, we were at Pearson in the middle of December. It was -11 degrees that day. And I remember the first couple of years very well. It was rough. My dad told me the same thing, he never thought it would be the way it is. He felt dejected and his army officer ego was hurting. He worked as a security guard overnight and many other odd jobs. But he worked REALLY hard when he wasn't working. He upgraded his education, took a couple of online courses and kept trying. Within 6 months of us landing in Toronto, he found a job as a project manager at a construction firm on salary. Fast forward another couple of years, he found a job as a project manager at the Department of National Defence where he still works. I don't mean to brag or anything, but I was there... I know how difficult it was for my dad, but he did it. And he's always told me the same thing, and it sounds cliche, but if you're willing to work hard, you can make an amazing life for yourself and your family in Canada.

I won't say it is always 24/7 completely negative about immigrants. I have seen some inspirational success stories as well. I met a Sikh guy at a wedding ceremony who told me that he when he first landed in Canada some 20 plus years ago had a pregnant wife and a kid, $600 in his pocket, did not speak a word of English and was literally in tears as he had no idea about the systems, processes in this country. He mentioned the names of a few Pakistani's and Indians whom he considers his best friends now on how they went out of their way to help him and his wife during these times.

He did work very very hard, he worked security, drove taxi's from evening to night and studied real estate from some university and within 3-4 years his hard work paid off when he completed his studies and got a job offer from a real estate firm. Now the guy apparently owns his own real estate firm in Mississauga and is a millionare.

These success stories are incredibly inspirational but such individuals with such drive, passion are very hard to find, you cannot expect such super human qualities from every immigrant, everyone has their own strengths and weaknesses. Heck even Local Canadians are not this perfect.

I know many people and families who adopt the "This country doesn't care about us and we're unwanted here" or "why isn't my Pakistani experience valid here" attitude and they either return home or work a dead end job for the rest of their lives. And that's fine, but you can't blame the system entirely if you aren't willing to put the proper amount of effort. I agree that the system is a bit flawed in terms of recognizing previous work experience from around the globe, but that's just how it is. It's not impossible to crack it. -

Nothing is impossible in life. Some immigrants can succeed in Canada, some fail. Let's also be honest that element of luck, being in the right place at the right time is often an untalked of thing as well and that is also vital. But overall you cannot blame immigrants and people for these honest views on Canada. Canada is missing out on diversifying and the added benefits their economy can enjoy by integrating these foreign immigrants and accepting their foreign work experiences, qualifications, cultures.

It hasn't hurt countries like the US, UK, Australia to integrate immigrants with foreign work experiences, foreign qualifications while giving them added incentives that if they opt for a local degree, local certification their prospects can become even better, why doesn't Canada do the same as oppossed to adopting the attitude get lost, you are not getting a job in your field until you start from scratch academically and even then you will only get an entry level job.

One thing that i would perhaps critique many desi foreign qualified, foreign educated immigrants on is the fact that they have a very one track mindset. For e.g. if someone was a banker, doctor, engineer in Pakistan they adopt the mindset that they have to be a banker, doctor, engineer in Canada, they don't think in terms of why don't i research on the local economy and see if i can do something else in a different field.

It does not have to be like that forever, it can change for the better if all the stakeholders want to bring in positive change.

Canada loves immigrants. The people here love everyone in this country and there are lots of opportunities if you're willing to work for it. -

The same can be said for Countries like USA, UK, Australia, in fact in those countries people get opportunities upon landing and then get further opportunities by adopting to local standards and working hard for it. Canada is not any special compared to those countries.

 

[UP]

[MENTION=5942]AlphaFighter[/MENTION]

I think you have a habit of generalizing things.

To end this debate, yes it can be hard but not impossible. Hundreds of thousands of immigrants have achieved success in Canada. I can give you two examples in quick and short manner: one in his mid 30's came to Canada in 2007 (Air Force background) and in 2009 he was hired by Toronto Police - now he earns close to $100,000.

Second guy in his early 40's came to Canada with his family in 2015 February and within a month he got a job in IT worth 90k.

Your habit of generalizing and painting everyone with the same brush is not a good thing. Some people achieve success and some don't. It can be done though.

 

[AlphaFighter]

[MENTION=5942]AlphaFighter[/MENTION]

I think you have a habit of generalizing things.

To end this debate, yes it can be hard but not impossible. Hundreds of thousands of immigrants have achieved success in Canada. I can give you two examples in quick and short manner: one in his mid 30's came to Canada in 2007 (Air Force background) and in 2009 he was hired by Toronto Police - now he earns close to $100,000.

Second guy in his early 40's came to Canada with his family in 2015 February and within a month he got a job in IT worth 90k.

Your habit of generalizing and painting everyone with the same brush is not a good thing. Some people achieve success and some don't. It can be done though.

I am a success too, my dad is a success too, people in my family are a success too. But i have noticed a disturbing trend among successful desi people in Canada who once they achieve success (even in my family unfortunately) they tend to forget their roots, their initial struggle and tend to criticize, make fun of other less fortunate, struggling foreign qualified, foreign educated desi immigrants who are not so lucky in this country and literally adopt a more Canadian than Canadian Attitude with them that you guys are loosers, you guys did not work hard enough, you guys did not create an impression, you guys did not sell yourselves properly, you think you are entitled to a job just because you have good foreign experience, foreign education, you took local canadian courses and volunteered.

I will not adopt this attitude, i will call a spade a spade with respect to this country and i am sorry to say but overall Foreign educated, foreign experienced immigrants in countries like USA, UK, Australia have it much better compared to Canada. No one can deny this fact.

Mock and make fun of this as much as you want "oh they didn't work hard enough in Canada", "Canada is no country for Lazymen", "Those countries like USA, UK, Australia have much lower employment standards e.t.c.", "This is Canada and this is how it is over here, take it or leave it".

 

[endymion248]

I will not adopt this attitude, i will call a spade a spade with respect to this country and i am sorry to say but overall Foreign educated, foreign experienced immigrants in countries like USA, UK, Australia have it much better compared to Canada. No one can deny this fact.

That's the loss of those countries and their citizens that they allow sub-par qualifications and experiences in their workforce. Getting a doctor in the NHS is nowadays a lottery on whether it will be a well educated western one or some guy who paid money to become a doctor in Pakistan. Just today I was reading this article about exam scams in India (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/17/the-mystery-of-indias-deadly-exam-scam), how could anyone give any credence to subcontinental qualifications?

Are there people from the subcontinent who are competent despite their sub-par qualification? Of course. But, to select and bring those people forward, there needs to be a sorting of the candidates and the best way to do that is to make them acquire local qualifications: the minority of talented candidates will have no problem earning a local qualification, the majority who don't live up to it will just find a different career for themselves. And the exceptional ones will already have jobs lined up so no problem for them. In effect, Canada's approach is the best.

 

[Thivagar]

Why Educated people ? If Canada immigration department already knows that those occupations do not have jobs , then no point in dividing immigrants into occupation class.

The kind of jobs they want to fill up does not require those education . No point in promoting underemployment in the country.

Ok here is the intention. The intention is to have more people in Canada. Provinces like Saskatchewan and Manitoba needs people but people don't want to move out there, they all want to live in Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, Calgary, Ottawa and Edmonton. On what basis are they going to let people in ? The Point system was introduced so there is no discrimination towards people based on skin colour. Every country wants to protect its culture, practices and so does Canada. Canada want to protect its people and their education, simple as that. "People" = residents of all colour. The Canadian government knows that their employers are protecting their local population, so they turn blind eye to it. Again you are promised a better life not a better life with a career you had.

Canada doesn't need educated people, they wan't educated people but it doesn't need educated people because we already have well educated citizens. The jobs that are needed are nanny work, temporary construction workers, farm workers and so on. They are not educated but hey Canada needs people to do these jobs and guess what ? no one wants to do them so they let people who possess "skill" which includes farming, care takers, construction workers. This is an indication that you are not disrespected based on your qualification, race or gender.

At the end of the day. Canada wants educated population at the same time they need "skilled labours" so they get into the country as well.

 

[Thivagar]

I wonder why do some many Canadian desi's take it so personally when it is mentioned that countries like US, UK, Australia and in the middle east are better places for jobs for foreign educated, foreign experienced expatriates?

Ultimately a person really cares about is getting a decent high paying job in the field he has studied in and not to be humiliatingly under employed.

Because you are jumping from a boat to another boat because the Canadian system doesn't benefit you. You are turning everything that Canada does to make it seem like all it does is screw over immigrants and burn money. You have a typical desi mindset of how everything "they do is wrong" and how "they should fix it" because it benefit you. The government is aware of what the employers are doing. They know it benefits the local population so they let it happen. Canada isn't begging for people from other countries to come here and want to be come a doctor and then screw them in their back.

 

[GenericBrand]

Blind fan following by the Desis towards him is cringe worthy considering he has only been there for 2 months.

It has nothing to do with 'blind fan following', he's a people's man and extremely popular with the youth of all races. He is already engaged in a lot of humanitarian work for a PM who has a country to run.

 

[AlphaFighter]

That's the loss of those countries and their citizens that they allow sub-par qualifications and experiences in their workforce. Getting a doctor in the NHS is nowadays a lottery on whether it will be a well educated western one or some guy who paid money to become a doctor in Pakistan. Just today I was reading this article about exam scams in India (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/17/the-mystery-of-indias-deadly-exam-scam), how could anyone give any credence to subcontinental qualifications?

Are there people from the subcontinent who are competent despite their sub-par qualification? Of course. But, to select and bring those people forward, there needs to be a sorting of the candidates and the best way to do that is to make them acquire local qualifications: the minority of talented candidates will have no problem earning a local qualification, the majority who don't live up to it will just find a different career for themselves. And the exceptional ones will already have jobs lined up so no problem for them. In effect, Canada's approach is the best.

So you are going to now generalize on an entire population of 1.5 billion people just because of a few bad apples? It's funny how i am being accussed of doing the same here for Canada when Canadians and desi's acting more Canadian than Canadian habitually do the same for all other countries outside Canada.

I am pretty sure Canada's approach might be the best for those nationalistic Canadians who are absolutely delighted at their govt's, societies and organizations looking after their backs compared to these immigrants who come to the country after paying all the fees and investing their life savings in the country and get nothing for it in the grander scheme of things.

The simple fact is that Canada is exploiting these immigrants by giving them points knowing full well there is a huge supply demand problem in the country and that there are no jobs for them. It's funny how the same problem does not occur in countries like the US, UK and Australia. Forget even the US with its 350 million population, how about countries like the UK and Australia with a similar if not less population than Canada, how have they suffered by allowing the economic integration of foreign immigrants and giving full respect to their foreign experiences and foreign qualifications? Please explain to me?

 

[AlphaFighter]

Because you are jumping from a boat to another boat because the Canadian system doesn't benefit you. You are turning everything that Canada does to make it seem like all it does is screw over immigrants and burn money. You have a typical desi mindset of how everything "they do is wrong" and how "they should fix it" because it benefit you. The government is aware of what the employers are doing. They know it benefits the local population so they let it happen. Canada isn't begging for people from other countries to come here and want to be come a doctor and then screw them in their back.

Ofcourse, every self respecting person including immigrants would want to benefit themselves at the end of the day. Yes i am aware the govt is involved in this scam with all these employers in order to protect their local population from immigrants.

Canada is indulging in a scam via their points system which is not reflective of the ground realities. Doctors should get zero points from the beginning, end off. If a Landscapper is in very high demand in Canada, then give him 100 out of 100. But don't indulge in this scam of allowing people to pay fee's and invest their whole life savings in the country for not much in return, a first world country like Canada should not indulge in such cheap practices.

Yes no one is forcing the immigrants to come here but if people wan't easy access of Canadian Citizenship, Passport, how can you blame them? People do whatever is in their best interests.

But ultimately it is the country of Canada which is losing out on this failure to economically integrate the foreign qualifications, foreign work experiences of immigrants into their society compared to countries like USA (which is truly the land of opportunity), UK and Australia.

 

[endymion248]

So you are going to now generalize on an entire population of 1.5 billion people just because of a few bad apples? It's funny how i am being accussed of doing the same here for Canada when Canadians and desi's acting more Canadian than Canadian habitually do the same for all other countries outside Canada.

I am pretty sure Canada's approach might be the best for those nationalistic Canadians who are absolutely delighted at their govt's, societies and organizations looking after their backs compared to these immigrants who come to the country after paying all the fees and investing their life savings in the country and get nothing for it in the grander scheme of things.

The simple fact is that Canada is exploiting these immigrants by giving them points knowing full well there is a huge supply demand problem in the country and that there are no jobs for them. It's funny how the same problem does not occur in countries like the US, UK and Australia. Forget even the US with its 350 million population, how about countries like the UK and Australia with a similar if not less population than Canada, how have they suffered by allowing the economic integration of foreign immigrants and giving full respect to their foreign experiences and foreign qualifications? Please explain to me?

''Giving full respect to foreign experiences and foreign qualifications'' being giving them the same value as local qualifications? And, somehow, you can't see why saying that subcontinental qualifications are the same as education from first world countries is a fallacy? You're basically defending an indefensible position and accusing anyone of refusing to share the dellusion of ''being more canadian than canadians''. In fact, the expectancy that other desis should somehow be ''less canadian than canadians'' as if they are different and the canadian citizenship is just a 2nd wheel before emigrating to the middle east or australia should tell you why employers may be tempted to discriminate against desis in the first place.

The link I posted is not an isolated case. Lack of merit and fraud is almost omnipresent in these countries' education systems.

 

[Thivagar]

Ofcourse, every self respecting person including immigrants would want to benefit themselves at the end of the day. Yes i am aware the govt is involved in this scam with all these employers in order to protect their local population from immigrants.

Canada is indulging in a scam via their points system which is not reflective of the ground realities. Doctors should get zero points from the beginning, end off. If a Landscapper is in very high demand in Canada, then give him 100 out of 100. But don't indulge in this scam of allowing people to pay fee's and invest their whole life savings in the country for not much in return, a first world country like Canada should not indulge in such cheap practices.

Yes no one is forcing the immigrants to come here but if people wan't easy access of Canadian Citizenship, Passport, how can you blame them? People do whatever is in their best interests.

But ultimately it is the country of Canada which is losing out on this failure to economically integrate the foreign qualifications, foreign work experiences of immigrants into their society compared to countries like USA (which is truly the land of opportunity), UK and Australia.

To end this.

1. Immigrant want what benefit them
2. Canada wants what benefits them and their people
3. Canada isn't begging foreigners to come, it doesn't need to. People want to come to Canada for various reasons so the should know what they are getting into rather than blaming the system which most of the world and people in Canada seem to agree with.

 

[AlphaFighter]

''Giving full respect to foreign experiences and foreign qualifications'' being giving them the same value as local qualifications? And, somehow, you can't see why saying that subcontinental qualifications are the same as education from first world countries is a fallacy?

Pakistan has one of the top medical universities in Agha Khan University, Dow Medical College. Pakistan has some top graduates from IBA and Lums. These graduates have done their country proud with their achievements outside Pakistan in the US, UK, Middle East and in other countries of the world. So are you seriously going to argue with me that these universities are below par and below standards of Canadian Universities? Let us do a curriculam by curriculam comparison of these Universities versus Universities in the West including Canada to really determine whether there is a significant difference in quality or not. I see very little value in someone being forced to repeat the things he studied 10-15-20 years ago just because his adopted country by law or culture is forcing him to do so.

Even if we for argument sake accept the above. What about European immigrants? What about graduates from American Universities who are rejected in the Canadian market for lack of Canadian experience? Are you saying that their universities are below par and that they acquired their qualifications fraudulently?

You're basically defending an indefensible position and accusing anyone of refusing to share the dellusion of ''being more canadian than canadians''. In fact, the expectancy that other desis should somehow be ''less canadian than canadians'' as if they are different and the canadian citizenship is just a 2nd wheel before emigrating to the middle east or australia should tell you why employers may be tempted to discriminate against desis in the first place. -

Wrong it is you who is defending an indefensible position that countries like USA, UK, Australia and countries in the Middle East have low employment standards, are making a mistake in accepting the foreign qualifications, foreign work experiences of immigrants compared to the Country of Canada which has every right to feel that all foreign immigrants in Canada have extremely subpar foreign work experiences, foreign qualifications.

My criticism of a lot of successful Canadian desi's is the simple fact is the extent to which they go out of the way to Act even more Canadian than a local Canadian would with their fellow desi's. In fact not even local Canadians are this arrogant and dismissive compared to many Canadian Desi's who have made it in Canada and feel delighted at seeing a fellow desi struggle in this country and get an sense of self importance in telling them off, mocking them.

Using Canada as a second wheel and becoming Citizens of Convenience is only a reaction to the discriminatory practices of the Candian govt, Canadian employers towards the Desi immigrants who after acquiring a local degree, certificate and volunteering for free to get Canadian work experience still fail to get jobs in their fields, all this struggle for a 40 plus year old guy with outstanding foreign qualifications, foreign work experiences just for an entry level position in Canada? Please.

The link I posted is not an isolated case. Lack of merit and fraud is almost omnipresent in these countries' education systems.

Please dont even get me started. Countries like Canada and US are not entirely squeeky clean either. No shortage of rich or children of well connected parents getting into top notch private schools, universities or organizations just because Daddy knew someone. George W Bush is a classic example. Now hit me back saying stop generalizing e.t.c.

 

[AlphaFighter]

To end this.

1. Immigrant want what benefit them
2. Canada wants what benefits them and their people
3. Canada isn't begging foreigners to come, it doesn't need to. People want to come to Canada for various reasons so the should know what they are getting into rather than blaming the system which most of the world and people in Canada seem to agree with.

I am not saying that immigrants are not entirely faultless for not doing proper research on Canada. The dark reality is that an immigrant will only really know the dark ground realities of the country once he lands here and starts living here to actually understand that the reality is even worse than all the dark stories he heard.

I agree Canada and the Canadian society doesn't really need a lot of immigrants for the time being which is why they should just honestly stop immigration in the classes or occupations for which immigrants are not needed and for which there are no jobs available for these immigrants and for which the foreign qualifications and foreign experiences of these immigrants will not be accepted. But the Canadian govt doesn't do that, it still encourages people to come via a fraudulent point system which is just not reflective of the ground realities of the country's economy at all.

At the moment the perception among immigrants that the Canadian govt only wants to promote a massive pool of qualified but under employed foreign labour force at dirt cheap prices is completely justified. The only real benefit these immigrants get is the Canadian passport which they use to their advantage in other countries or making the ultimate sacrifice which allows their second generations to thrive in Canada

 

[AlphaFighter]

Ok here is the intention. The intention is to have more people in Canada. Provinces like Saskatchewan and Manitoba needs people but people don't want to move out there, they all want to live in Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, Calgary, Ottawa and Edmonton. On what basis are they going to let people in ? The Point system was introduced so there is no discrimination towards people based on skin colour. Every country wants to protect its culture, practices and so does Canada. Canada want to protect its people and their education, simple as that. "People" = residents of all colour. The Canadian government knows that their employers are protecting their local population, so they turn blind eye to it. Again you are promised a better life not a better life with a career you had.

Canada doesn't need educated people, they wan't educated people but it doesn't need educated people because we already have well educated citizens. The jobs that are needed are nanny work, temporary construction workers, farm workers and so on. They are not educated but hey Canada needs people to do these jobs and guess what ? no one wants to do them so they let people who possess "skill" which includes farming, care takers, construction workers. This is an indication that you are not disrespected based on your qualification, race or gender.

At the end of the day. Canada wants educated population at the same time they need "skilled labours" so they get into the country as well.

Let me clear this misperception that Canadian govt wants educated people to go to Saskatchwen, Manitoba e.t.c. but many foreign qualified immigrants are too stubborn to move out of Ontario.

Immigrants have gone to these provinces and have still encountered Canadian experience barriers over there as well.

 

[ChachaCricket]

Sigh, this guy is still going on. Bro, take your ass to wherever you want if you don't like Canada. Don't worry, nobody's gonna miss you.

 

[ilovebouncers]

It is becoming increasingly difficult for new grads to get jobs in Canada, I still have friends who graduated in 2011 and are not working in their field.

 

[endymion248]

Pakistan has one of the top medical universities in Agha Khan University, Dow Medical College. Pakistan has some top graduates from IBA and Lums. These graduates have done their country proud with their achievements outside Pakistan in the US, UK, Middle East and in other countries of the world. So are you seriously going to argue with me that these universities are below par and below standards of Canadian Universities? Let us do a curriculam by curriculam comparison of these Universities versus Universities in the West including Canada to really determine whether there is a significant difference in quality or not. I see very little value in someone being forced to repeat the things he studied 10-15-20 years ago just because his adopted country by law or culture is forcing him to do so.

Well, that's the crux of the matter, isn't it? You think that these Agha Khans and IBA are somehow comparable to UoT, McGill or Université de Montréal. I doubt anything will change your mind here since you have a horse in the race, probably being an IBA graduate yourself, but the neutral reader will realize how preposterous the comparison is.

Even if we for argument sake accept the above. What about European immigrants? What about graduates from American Universities who are rejected in the Canadian market for lack of Canadian experience? Are you saying that their universities are below par and that they acquired their qualifications fraudulently?

I think that it's pretty wrong to say that european immigrants and american immigrants have it harder than they should in Canada. It's a different country so, obviously, they won't have it easier than locals but there are plenty of cases for people who go there and find jobs relatively easy. Quebec, for example, has quota seats for french students and I know half a dozen french people who found jobs in Montréal without much difficulty, probably easier than they would have found in their home country.

Wrong it is you who is defending an indefensible position that countries like USA, UK, Australia and countries in the Middle East have low employment standards, are making a mistake in accepting the foreign qualifications, foreign work experiences of immigrants compared to the Country of Canada which has every right to feel that all foreign immigrants in Canada have extremely subpar foreign work experiences, foreign qualifications.

Well, in the case of Middle East, it's definitely true that they have low employement standards. Any tom, dick and harry can get a job in the ME because nobody actually qualified wants to work there unless they get significantly better opportunities than in the west. Australian economy is booming so they need labour but, in practice, you're only using anecdotal evidence to say that they give value to subcontinental qualifications, they mostly don't. As for the UK, the foreign doctors are usually posted to the jobs nobody else wants to do and, even so, they have a colonial history with the subcontinent which explains that they want to take them in, not a lot of black countries doctors in the NHS, it's mostly south asians. As for America, their selection process is a lot more rigourous than other countries. They take actually talented people based on their work and keeping a green card is a hard process, you need to have a job lined up if you want to keep it (so it's a cut-throat meritocracy, people don't get in because they are ''from the top schools in Pakistan which are just as good as Canada and America's).

My criticism of a lot of successful Canadian desi's is the simple fact is the extent to which they go out of the way to Act even more Canadian than a local Canadian would with their fellow desi's. In fact not even local Canadians are this arrogant and dismissive compared to many Canadian Desi's who have made it in Canada and feel delighted at seeing a fellow desi struggle in this country and get an sense of self importance in telling them off, mocking them.

So it's the canadian desis who made the policies you criticize?

Using Canada as a second wheel and becoming Citizens of Convenience is only a reaction to the discriminatory practices of the Candian govt, Canadian employers towards the Desi immigrants who after acquiring a local degree, certificate and volunteering for free to get Canadian work experience still fail to get jobs in their fields, all this struggle for a 40 plus year old guy with outstanding foreign qualifications, foreign work experiences just for an entry level position in Canada? Please.

Seems like pretty much sour grapes. If a person doesn't want to work in a country then why are they trying to get its citizenship?

A 40 year old guy will find it hard to get a job anywhere without experience or qualification, be he local or immigrant. Your argument is that subcontinental experience and qualifications are important while canadian employers obviously feel that they can't be trusted, probably based on bad cases they had in the past. If these foreign qualifications were good then employers would have no problem trusting them, as it happened in your father's case. It's the law of the market, government shouldn't have to intervene there.

And what's the problem with entry level positions or jobs in a different field? I'd rather be a tradesman in a country like Canada than a doctor in one like Pakistan.

Please dont even get me started. Countries like Canada and US are not entirely squeeky clean either. No shortage of rich or children of well connected parents getting into top notch private schools, universities or organizations just because Daddy knew someone. George W Bush is a classic example. Now hit me back saying stop generalizing e.t.c.

What's wrong with Bush? He's a pretty smart guy.

 

[Ironcat]

For the reasons i have mentioned i.e. easiest and fastest access to Immigration and Citizenship and the Canadian passport compared to any other western country in the world.

This logic makes no sense. They can go to Ecuador, Bermuda, or any other open immigration countries. They can rank any of them up higher, but almost 300K of them show up in Canada and rank the country high means they love the country net of all the non-existent fees.

Ofcourse you cannot relate to any of these issues and experiences when you have no sympathy for the struggles, plight, injustices committed against foreign qualified, foreign educated and foreign experienced immigrants to Canada.

No, not me. Nobody can. Like I asked, provide proof in the form of some numbers or rankings, and we can discuss it more.

Again as i repeat because Canada provides the easiest route to immigration and citizenship compared to other western countries, because they want to make full use of the Canadian passport once they get it. It is the fault of the Canadian society, Canadian govt that many foreign qualified, foreign educated, foreign experienced immigrants end up becoming citizens of convenience at the end of the day.

I repeat, this logic makes no sense. They can go to Ecuador, Bermuda, or any other open immigration countries. They can rank any of them up higher, but almost 300K of them show up in Canada and rank the country high means they love the country. The only scrupulous people are some of those immigrant who show up to flip into a quick passport and never get off their lazy back to do the hard work. Those immigrants should never be allowed in any country.

This might be your nationalistic way of thinking and your preferred policy towards Canadian locals vis a vis foreign educated, foreign qualified, foreign work experi...ons while opting for local qualifications they can progress even better, faster and integrate better unlike Canada which tells these foreign immigrants to get lost and start completely from scratch both academically and professionally.

Again, a lack of any proof - but like I said, Canadian standard are higher. If you want to succeed in the country, work harder or don't show up. A prime example is someone immigration to pick up the Canadian passport and qualifications and now able to anywhere the world. Such a person could not hack it in this country, but the Middle East will take such rejects. The US will only after seeing Canadian passport and Canadian quals.

Ofcourse they do, but people act in their own self interest, some come to collect the passport and make use of it to get better options in other countries later on, some ch..... hand to mouth in a country which atleast offers better security, law and order and basic social services.

Yup, a minority of the immigrants are those scrupulous individuals who have no loyalty to a country who is giving them free education, social welfare, and healthcare. They are funded by hard working Canadians' taxes and are only here to collect the passport and Canadian quals. A system should be in place to screen such immigrants out. No need to reduce the intake - simply screen out those coming in to take shortcuts and replace with those who have shown through their past experiences that they can work hard and justify the free ride they are given in the beginning by Canadian taxpayers.

CPA designation is something i have personally always wanted to achieve. My parents have always had this wish and desire that i become a CPA one day. Yes i already have an MBA from the top business school in Pakistan but sadly in Canada, it has become totally worthless to the point that i even stopped identifying with my prior school in the last 3 years that i have been here.

But having said that people from the US that i have met whenever i have shown them my resume for feedback have always commented that i shouldn't have a problem in getting a decent office job based on my Pakistani education, Pakistani work experience alone but if i were to supplement that with a Canadian University degree, Canadian Work Experience and a Canadian prestigious accounting designation such as the CPA, then my prospects would be even more brighter.

I will assess my future options as time goes on.

Once you meet the actual recruiters in the US, you will see who quickly they will dismiss your Pakistani 'top MBA' quals. Even a sub-top-20 US MBA program graduate will get this cold shoulder. Your only chanxce is the Canadian CPA, passport, and work experience. Good luck though.

 

[Ironcat]

Let me clear this misperception that Canadian govt wants educated people to go to Saskatchwen, Manitoba e.t.c. but many foreign qualified immigrants are too stubborn to move out of Ontario.

Immigrants have gone to these provinces and have still encountered Canadian experience barriers over there as well.

Willing to testify to that? Here are the actual numbers. In short, there is no truth to the statement this poster made.

http://www12.statcan.ca/census-recensement/2006/as-sa/97-557/table/t2-eng.cfm

 

[Ironcat]

I am not saying that immigrants are not entirely faultless for not doing proper research on Canada. The dark reality is that an immigrant will only really know the dark ground realities of the country once he lands here and starts living here to actually understand that the reality is even worse than all the dark stories he heard.

I agree Canada and the Canadian society doesn't really need a lot of immigrants for the time being which is why they should just honestly stop immigration in the classes or occupations for which immigrants are not needed and for which there are no jobs available for these immigrants and for which the foreign qualifications and foreign experiences of these immigrants will not be accepted. But the Canadian govt doesn't do that, it still encourages people to come via a fraudulent point system which is just not reflective of the ground realities of the country's economy at all.

At the moment the perception among immigrants that the Canadian govt only wants to promote a massive pool of qualified but under employed foreign labour force at dirt cheap prices is completely justified. The only real benefit these immigrants get is the Canadian passport which they use to their advantage in other countries or making the ultimate sacrifice which allows their second generations to thrive in Canada

Not really. The only immigrant who will see it as a dark reality is someone who does not want to work hard. Wants shortcuts in life. And wants someone else to pay for their free ride.

A minority of the immigrants are in this category who have no loyalty to a country that is giving them free education, social welfare, and healthcare. They are funded by hard working Canadians' taxes and are only here to collect the passport and Canadian quals. A system should be in place to screen such immigrants out. No need to reduce the intake - simply screen out those coming in to take shortcuts and replace with those who have shown through their past experiences that they can work hard and justify the free ride they are given at start by Canadian taxpayers.

 

[Ironcat]

Ofcourse, every self respecting person including immigrants would want to benefit themselves at the end of the day. Yes i am aware the govt is involved in this scam with all these employers in order to protect their local population from immigrants.

Canada is indulging in a scam via their points system which is not reflective of the ground realities. Doctors should get zero points from the beginning, end off. If a Landscapper is in very high demand in Canada, then give him 100 out of 100. But don't indulge in this scam of allowing people to pay fee's and invest their whole life savings in the country for not much in return, a first world country like Canada should not indulge in such cheap practices.

Yes no one is forcing the immigrants to come here but if people wan't easy access of Canadian Citizenship, Passport, how can you blame them? People do whatever is in their best interests.

But ultimately it is the country of Canada which is losing out on this failure to economically integrate the foreign qualifications, foreign work experiences of immigrants into their society compared to countries like USA (which is truly the land of opportunity), UK and Australia.

See post # 106 for a complete rebuttal of this logic.

 

[offstump]

AlphaFighter, as has been stated multiple times you are using examples based on what appear to be discussions or observations of "more canadian than canadian" desis who allegedly belittle, humiliate and make life worse for new immigrants. This appears to be your general consensus. Have you lived in major urban canadian cities with said struggling immigrants and chronicled these experiences in a research paper? The statistics refute everything you are saying. You may want to expand your social circle.

If we want to debate using generalizations, the majority of new desi immigrants I have met worked hard for 2-4 years i.e. Studied and obtained a master's degree to supplement their already awesome and super qualified world class Pakistani education and are now successful and valuable contributors to canadian society. The ones that are stuck in menial jobs did not make the effort to upgrade their English skill, network or try their craft in another field.

If you want to discuss doctors, the fact (and you can look this up) is that there are simply not enough residency spots available in Canada. The first spots goto Canadian trained doctors. Otherwise, why wouldn't a Canadian just move to Pakistan for 5 years and complete his/her medical degree then move back to Canada and start practising? They would save tens of thousands of dollars and become just as qualified in a fraction of the time according to your logic. Last time I checked Pakistan was not considered a hot bed for medical tourism or medical research.

You seem to think that migrating to the US will somehow bypass this alleged said discrimination. Fact is that's its harder for immigrants in the US as well to get certified, recognized and employed than it would be for a US citizen.

http://www.migrationpolicy.org/pubs/UScredentialrecognition.pdf

It is a well known fact and one that has been heavily researched, human capital transfer from places like Pakistan, India, China, etc. doesn't have the same return as one would get if moving to Canada from say the US or UK.

You keep citing the US as a shining example for immigrants but forget that immigration to the US is largely employment based. You can't just show up if you meet the points criteria, so you are advocating to have people enjoy our social benefits but also hold the government responsible for finding them employment?

Anyways, you should continue to enjoy the benefits Canada has provided to you and your family. As you said, you dad makes $700,000/year and you love in a $2 million house. Based on this information alone you le family are in the top 1% of income earners in Canada. On top of that your parents have lined up a green card holder rishtah for you. If that works out for you, sounds like you can circumvent the employment based immigration process and head to the USA on family class. Life seems to be working out pretty good for you.

 

[AlphaFighter]

This logic makes no sense. They can go to Ecuador, Bermuda, or any other open immigration countries. They can rank any of them up higher, but almost 300K of them show up in Canada and rank the country high means they love the country net of all the non-existent fees.

I think the whole world views a Canadian Passport >>>> than an Ecuador or Bermuda Passport. In the middle east, citizens with good qualifications, work experiences and with Western passports like US, UK, Canada manage to get higher wages than the locals.

Again, a lack of any proof - but like I said, Canadian standard are higher. If you want to succeed in the country, work harder or don't show up. A prime example is someone immigration to pick up the Canadian passport and qualifications and now able to anywhere the world. Such a person could not hack it in this country, but the Middle East will take such rejects. The US will only after seeing Canadian passport and Canadian quals.

You are now conveniently attributing their success in all those other countries after they worked as security guards, taxi drivers or other menials jobs in Canada for 4-5 years before getting the Canadian passport and going to the middle east on the simple fact that they had Canadian qualifications, which in a lot of cases is not true. A lot of these people got these positions purely on the basis of their non-Canadian qualifications, non-Canadian work experiences. If you want to make fun and criticize countries like USA, UK, Australia for taking these losers and having lower employment standards then that is your cop out but why is it that these countries take these struggling immigrants and accomodate them easily in their system but not Canada?

Yup, a minority of the immigrants are those scrupulous individuals who have no loyalty to a country who is giving them free education, social welfare, and healthcare. They are funded by hard working Canadians' taxes and are only here to collect the passport and Canadian quals. A system should be in place to screen such immigrants out. No need to reduce the intake - simply screen out those coming in to take shortcuts and replace with those who have shown through their past experiences that they can work hard and justify the free ride they are given in the beginning by Canadian taxpayers.

You do realize that these loans have to be paid back by these immigrants to the govt, so how exactly is it free and how exactly is the tax payer suffering? The tax payer is suffering because of the idiotic policies of the govt to bring in foreign qualified immigrants on the basis of a point system for which no jobs are available in the country.

These immigrants are forced to become citizens of convenience because of being discriminatingly rejected by the Canadian economy. Unless you would prefer them to remain under employed for the rest of their lives irrespective of how many sincere efforts they make to get into the system via acquiring Canadian education, Canadian experience by volunteer roles. How can you criticize them for being smart and practical enough to realize that the Canadian economy is just to uniquely biased compared to the rest of the world like USA, UK, Australia or the Middle East.

Once you meet the actual recruiters in the US, you will see who quickly they will dismiss your Pakistani 'top MBA' quals. Even a sub-top-20 US MBA program graduate will get this cold shoulder. Your only chanxce is the Canadian CPA, passport, and work experience. Good luck though. -

Too the contrary my friend, IBA and Lums has a lot of graduates working in decent jobs in the US. One of my seniors from IBA is working in an investment banking firm on Wallstreet. I know of ICAP qualified Pakistani Chartered Accountants working in industry in the US. 7-8 people who completed their MBA from my batch in IBA in 2010 are already working for various organizations in the US. I am just quoting examples of people with Pakistani qualifications who were not even required or ordered by the US govt, US employers or US society to go back to school in the US or to acquire US qualifications before they could even dream of getting a job. And a lot of these guys are earning very good money i.e. $90,000-140,000 which is not bad for guys 3-4 years after graduation.

My elder brother did his MBA from CBM (which is a lower ranked Uni) in Pakistan. He then was sponsored by his US citizen wife and came to Boston to do an Masters in Public Health. Even during the course of his studies, he managed to get a decent office job in Boston where they accepted his MBA from CBM and recognized his Pakistani work experience done in unheard of NGO's in Pakistan and hence he was able to supplement studies with work. Now yes thankfully after getting his MPH he got offered a very decent job in the top most children's hospital in Boston.

Bottomline in Canada, this sort of respect for foreign qualifications, foreign work experiences are unheard off which is why the whole system is so discriminatory and strictly designed to protect the local population unjustly.

Sure i would always recommend that anyone who moves to the US or Canada strive to supplement their educations, experiences with US and Canadian qualifications to always improve their chances of integrating but it always feels better and true acceptance also occurs when the country always embraces your foreign qualifications and work experiences as well which further motivates you and gives you even bigger hope for the future that if i further adopt to local standards i can really go places. That is indeed what the land of opportunity is about. Not the land of Scam, humiliation and underemployment i.e. Canada.

 

[AlphaFighter]

Not really. The only immigrant who will see it as a dark reality is someone who does not want to work hard. Wants shortcuts in life. And wants someone else to pay for their free ride.

A minority of the immigrants are in this category who have no loyalty to a country that is giving them free education, social welfare, and healthcare. They are funded by hard working Canadians' taxes and are only here to collect the passport and Canadian quals. A system should be in place to screen such immigrants out. No need to reduce the intake - simply screen out those coming in to take shortcuts and replace with those who have shown through their past experiences that they can work hard and justify the free ride they are given at start by Canadian taxpayers.

In short the typical desi more Canadian than Canadian mindset that any immigrant who was unsuccessful in getting a proper job in his field in Canada, continued to struggle and remain under employed just simply did not work hard enough and eventually opted for a short cut in life by deciding to do what is best for himself i.e. make use of his passport to get his rightful due in countries like USA, UK, Australia or the Middle East.

How are they exploiting the free education, social welfare and health care when they eventually pack up and decide to leave Canada?

A system should be in place to ensure the correct unbiased and non fraudulent implementation of the point system

 

[AlphaFighter]

Willing to testify to that? Here are the actual numbers. In short, there is no truth to the statement this poster made.

http://www12.statcan.ca/census-recensement/2006/as-sa/97-557/table/t2-eng.cfm

It is funny how the stats brigade jumps on W63L35 on Statistics exposing Misbah that they are biased, heavily skewed, lack nuetrality, impartiality?

Well let's apply it to this argument then, maybe the author of this paper already had a conclusion in mind prior to starting writing the paper?

Do you seriously think that if there were so many jobs available in Saskawtchen, Manitoba, British Columbia, Alberta that struggling immigrants would continue to remain in Toronto?

There was a hype over Alberta in the last 4-5 years but now thanks to this brutal oil recession that hype will die down big time as well.

 

[Ironcat]

I think the whole world views a Canadian Passport >>>> than an Ecuador or Bermuda Passport. In the middle east, citizens with good qualifications, work experiences and with Western passports like US, UK, Canada manage to get higher wages than the locals.

When the world agrees that Canada ranks high in the list of countries to immigrate to, somehow it becomes a scam? When the world's opinion is needed to support your argument, it become relevant. If not, it is irrelevant.

You are now conveniently attributing their success in all those other countries after they worked as security guards, taxi drivers or other menials jobs in Canada ... stralia for taking these losers and having lower employment standards then that is your cop out but why is it that these countries take these struggling immigrants and accomodate them easily in their system but not Canada?

You first have to prove that these individuals are able to get jobs more easily in Australia, UK, etc. before making your other statements. Respond to the Australia rebuttal that I made previously. Respond to the EU rebuttal as well. In EU, these immigrants stand no chance. They is hardly any immigration policy.

Only US does because of its size where ther are always opportunities at the lower end of ths scale. Yet, most of the immigrants stay in Canada, meaning they prefer Canada over moving to the US.

You do realize that these loans have to be paid back by these immigrants to the govt, so how exactly is it free and how exactly is the tax payer suffering?

You get free education up to Grade 12. You get free interest on your OSAP loans. Two-thirds of the university costs of training you as an undergraduate are paid for by the government. By the taxes of the hard-working Canadians. Only professional graduate degrees such as MBA, law school, etc. are 100% your own responsibility. You get a free PhD ride as well. If an immigrant finds a way to complain about these free educational perks, he or she is most likely lazy and should never be allowed in any country.

The tax payer is suffering because of the idiotic policies of the govt to bring in foreign qualified immigrants on the basis of a point system for which no jobs are available in the country.

The points system rebuttal is in post # 106. Feel free to respond to it.

These immigrants are forced to become citizens of convenience because of being discriminatingly rejected by the Canadian economy. Unless you would prefer them to remain under employed for the re ... he Canadian economy is just to uniquely biased compared to the rest of the world like USA, UK, Australia or the Middle East.

Canadian standards are higher than most of the world except for some countries such as the US. There is no discrimination other than that based on simple demand/supply factors.

Too the contrary my friend, IBA and Lums has a lot of graduates working in decent jobs in the US. One of my seniors from IBA is working in an investment banking firm on Wallstreet. I know of ICAP qualified Pakistani Chartered Accountants working in industry in the US. 7-8 people who completed their MBA ... or the future that if i further adopt to local standards i can really go places. That is indeed what the land of opportunity is about. Not the land of Scam, humiliation and underemployment i.e. Canada.

Mostly untrue. There are horror stores of Pakistani top MBA program grads getting snared in the traps of fundamentalism. Most of them struggle in the US by working at McDonalds or gas stations while completing a second MBA.

 

[Ironcat]

It is funny how the stats brigade jumps on W63L35 on Statistics exposing Misbah that they are biased, heavily skewed, lack nuetrality, impartiality?

Well let's apply it to this argument then, maybe the author of this paper already had a conclusion in mind prior to starting writing the paper?

Do you seriously think that if there were so many jobs available in Saskawtchen, Manitoba, British Columbia, Alberta that struggling immigrants would continue to remain in Toronto?

There was a hype over Alberta in the last 4-5 years but now thanks to this brutal oil recession that hype will die down big time as well.

Err, did you actually open the link before hitting your keyboard?

It is a table from StatCan based on the CENSUS data.

Go ahead. Challenge it.

 

[AlphaFighter]

Well, that's the crux of the matter, isn't it? You think that these Agha Khans and IBA are somehow comparable to UoT, McGill or Université de Montréal. I doubt anything will change your mind here since you have a horse in the race, probably being an IBA graduate yourself, but the neutral reader will realize how preposterous the comparison is.

My friend, in the Pakistani market, graduates from IBA and Lums already have an advantage over graduates from these universities except for perhaps Harvard and Oxford graduates and some ivy league universities. Sure these universities have better rankings than these Pakistani universities but to completely dismiss these universities as totally far behind is not correct either. IBA has always been affiliated with the US Wharton School of Business and these universities have many exchange programs with US Universities.

I think that it's pretty wrong to say that european immigrants and american immigrants have it harder than they should in Canada. It's a different country so, obviously, they won't have it easier than locals but there are plenty of cases for people who go there and find jobs relatively easy. Quebec, for example, has quota seats for french students and I know half a dozen french people who found jobs in Montréal without much difficulty, probably easier than they would have found in their home country.

I agree learning and knowing French is a huge plus when working in Canada especially in places like Quebec but it is also a fact that even European immigrants struggle really badly with respect to their foreign experiences, foreign degrees and qualifications and are also instructed to start all over again.

My uncle who own his own Civil Engineering and Construction consultancy firm tells me of so many European financial, doctors who end up working in the construction industry in Canada.

Well, in the case of Middle East, it's definitely true that they have low employement standards. Any tom, dick and harry can get a job in the ME because nobody actually qualified wants to work there unless they get significantly better opportunities than in the west. Australian economy is booming so they need labour but, in practice, you're only using anecdotal evidence to say that they give value to subcontinental qualifications, they mostly don't. As for the UK, the foreign doctors are usually posted to the jobs nobody else wants to do and, even so, they have a colonial history with the subcontinent which explains that they want to take them in, not a lot of black countries doctors in the NHS, it's mostly south asians. As for America, their selection process is a lot more rigourous than other countries. They take actually talented people based on their work and keeping a green card is a hard process, you need to have a job lined up if you want to keep it (so it's a cut-throat meritocracy, people don't get in because they are ''from the top schools in Pakistan which are just as good as Canada and America's). -

See this is what you guys are doing? I am stating a fact that immigrants in general who struggle really badly in Canada to get into their fields all the time that they are here till they get their passports but once they get their passports so many opportunities open for them in countries like USA, UK, Australia and Middle East. This is the fact.

There is no need to go into oh those countries have bad standards for employment, those countries take loosers from any where. Oh these people benefited from the time they spent in Canadian colleges, universities or the voluntary work experiences they got which is not always true.

Its funny how people here shift goal posts on Canada's discriminatory attitude and policies towards foreign degrees, foreign qualifications under the pretext that it is necessary to protect the local population to the other pretext oh they are doing this on experience, please just dont do that. If you want to nationalistically defend Canada's biased policies then fair enough but don't mock and dismiss countries like USA, UK, Australia and the Middle East where they have given opportunities and a second chance to these struggling immigrants.

So it's the canadian desis who made the policies you criticize? -

I criticize Canadian desi's because of the fact that even when they have been successful and integrated into the country, they have done very little to help others less fortunate. Italians help Italians, Indians help Indians, Agha Khanis help Agha Khanis, Jews help Jews but you know the overall condition of the Muslim ummah when it is the Muslim Ummah which should have been an example of community, helpfulness compared to the other communities.

Seems like pretty much sour grapes. If a person doesn't want to work in a country then why are they trying to get its citizenship? A 40 year old guy will find it hard to get a job anywhere without experience or qualification, be he local or immigrant. Your argument is that subcontinental experience and qualifications are important while canadian employers obviously feel that they can't be trusted, probably based on bad cases they had in the past. If these foreign qualifications were good then employers would have no problem trusting them, as it happened in your father's case. It's the law of the market, government shouldn't have to intervene there. And what's the problem with entry level positions or jobs in a different field? I'd rather be a tradesman in a country like Canada than a doctor in one like Pakistan.

My dad did not have any foreign qualifications, all his qualifications and work experiences have been from Pakistan.

A guy who was a country manager of a bank where had extensive work experience in Singapore, Hong Kong, Middle east should not be humiliatingly be forced to accept a low level Credit Risk officer position in a Bank in Canada.

These Canadian employers are not doodh ka Dhula, the govt has every right to intervene if the market was not managing itself properly and delivering proper social justice, in any society in the world govt has the right to intervene in situations where the market is not managing itself properly and is involved in abusive practices.

If the govt has no right to intervene then why did the US govt intervene via the Bail out package for the banks in 2008?

What's wrong with Bush? He's a pretty smart guy.

Yeah right

 

[AlphaFighter]

Err, did you actually open the link before hitting your keyboard?

It is a table from StatCan based on the CENSUS data.

Go ahead. Challenge it.

Oh is it data from the govt of canada, wow that surely must be 100% reliable given that they are a party to this scam involving the foreign educated, qualified, work experience immigrants.

 

[Ironcat]

In short the typical desi more Canadian than Canadian mindset that any immigrant who was unsuccessful in getting a proper job in his field in Canada, continued to struggle and remain under employed just simply did not work hard enough and eventually opted for a short cut in life by deciding to do what is best for himself i.e. make use of his passport to get his rightful due in countries like USA, UK, Australia or the Middle East.

How are they exploiting the free education, social welfare and health care when they eventually pack up and decide to leave Canada?

A system should be in place to ensure the correct unbiased and non fraudulent implementation of the point system

Like I said, A minority of the immigrants are in this category who have no loyalty to a country that is giving them free education, social welfare, and healthcare. They are funded by hard working Canadians' taxes and are only here to collect the passport and Canadian quals. A system should be in place to screen such immigrants out.

Such free riders would be completely unable to hack it in the US or even the Middle East given their laziness. They get Canadian passport and quals and experience for free - and then use the free ride to move elsewhere.

Then, five years later, they come back home crying. Except that nobody can hire them based on a resume that reads like a tourist's itinerary.

 

[AlphaFighter]

Anyways, you should continue to enjoy the benefits Canada has provided to you and your family. As you said, you dad makes $700,000/year and you love in a $2 million house. Based on this information alone you le family are in the top 1% of income earners in Canada. On top of that your parents have lined up a green card holder rishtah for you. If that works out for you, sounds like you can circumvent the employment based immigration process and head to the USA on family class. Life seems to be working out pretty good for you.

It is my duty to call a spade a spade on Canada and to encourage many people who are bullied by others into constantly talking about Canada as a golden bastion of opportunity when it is far from the case. The Canadian immigration and economic system needs drastic improvement.

 

[Ironcat]

Oh is it data from the govt of canada, wow that surely must be 100% reliable given that they are a party to this scam involving the foreign educated, qualified, work experience immigrants.

I have my sympathies for the accounting firm that has hired you.

A Canadian government CENSUS data somehow lying that most immigrants end up in Ontario and not Alberta. To prove a lazy immigrant's excuse for procrastination.

 

[Ironcat]

Mods, can we make this thread a sticky? A case study for the degeneration of a debate where eventually North American CENSUS data is challenged as biased.

 

[endymion248]

My friend, in the Pakistani market, graduates from IBA and Lums already have an advantage over graduates from these universities except for perhaps Harvard and Oxford graduates and some ivy league universities. Sure these universities have better rankings than these Pakistani universities but to completely dismiss these universities as totally far behind is not correct either. IBA has always been affiliated with the US Wharton School of Business and these universities have many exchange programs with US Universities.

What does it matter what the pakistani market thinks when applying for jobs in the west? The Pakistani market thinks their own universities are better and the Canadian one thinks their own are better, seems fair enough to me. If people wanted to keep the pakistani market standards, they should have stayed in Pakistan. As for affiliation programs, there are dozens of UAE schools affiliated to ivy leagues and russell groups, doesn't make them any good, it's mostly commercial agreements.

I agree learning and knowing French is a huge plus when working in Canada especially in places like Quebec but it is also a fact that even European immigrants struggle really badly with respect to their foreign experiences, foreign degrees and qualifications and are also instructed to start all over again.

My uncle who own his own Civil Engineering and Construction consultancy firm tells me of so many European financial, doctors who end up working in the construction industry in Canada.

I doubt that say English doctors are having it hard in Canada. Europe is a big and diverse place, can you clarify which countries you are talking about?

See this is what you guys are doing? I am stating a fact that immigrants in general who struggle really badly in Canada to get into their fields all the time that they are here till they get their passports but once they get their passports so many opportunities open for them in countries like USA, UK, Australia and Middle East. This is the fact.

There is no need to go into oh those countries have bad standards for employment, those countries take loosers from any where. Oh these people benefited from the time they spent in Canadian colleges, universities or the voluntary work experiences they got which is not always true.

Its funny how people here shift goal posts on Canada's discriminatory attitude and policies towards foreign degrees, foreign qualifications under the pretext that it is necessary to protect the local population to the other pretext oh they are doing this on experience, please just dont do that. If you want to nationalistically defend Canada's biased policies then fair enough but don't mock and dismiss countries like USA, UK, Australia and the Middle East where they have given opportunities and a second chance to these struggling immigrants.

There is no shifting of goal posts: there is no comparison between a developped country and the Middle East. It's a flawed comparison. Beggars can't be choosers, the middle easterns will take anyone they get. In the same way, you can't compare a country with a colonial past like the UK with countries that had no such experience.

I criticize Canadian desi's because of the fact that even when they have been successful and integrated into the country, they have done very little to help others less fortunate. Italians help Italians, Indians help Indians, Agha Khanis help Agha Khanis, Jews help Jews but you know the overall condition of the Muslim ummah when it is the Muslim Ummah which should have been an example of community, helpfulness compared to the other communities.

You don't consider Agha Khanis to be a part of your ummah?

See, this is the typical desi ''us vs them'' mentality that makes it so hard for desis to integrate. Just in the name of communal solidarity people should lie to themselves and think that a country that welcomed them and gave them everything is a scam out to get them and enslave them.

My dad did not have any foreign qualifications, all his qualifications and work experiences have been from Pakistan.

It's foreign to Canada. And yet presumably a canadian hospital or university hired him without bias? Why? Because they saw value in him. If they didn't get him, another hospital would have. This is how the market works, companies are not out to discriminate people, they seek talent but they have their own definition of talent based on the context they work in. Maybe a person used to being treated like king in Pakistan thinks of themselves as a unique talent but, to western companies, it doesn't really matter how the pakistani market behaves, local qualifications are more revealing and thus immigrants with local qualifications more attractive than those with dubious subcontinental qualifications.

A guy who was a country manager of a bank where had extensive work experience in Singapore, Hong Kong, Middle east should not be humiliatingly be forced to accept a low level Credit Risk officer position in a Bank in Canada.

What ''should'' happen is what happens. If all he can get in canada is low level credit risk officer positions across all the different banks existing there then that's his exist value in the canadian market, not manager. He may find it humiliating but the situation of the middle-eastern market don't apply to companies elsewhere in the world. I guess your use of the world ''humiliating'' is pretty revealing. The whole problem here is phanay khan immigrants who think that, because they were big shots in their home country, they are owed big shot positions in their new country. If you are good enough for big shot positions, earn local qualifications. But some immigrants think that this is beneath them because they have ''top pakistani qualifications and work experiences''.

These Canadian employers are not doodh ka Dhula, the govt has every right to intervene if the market was not managing itself properly and delivering proper social justice, in any society in the world govt has the right to intervene in situations where the market is not managing itself properly and is involved in abusive practices.

Social justice is when employers discriminate based on race or gender. Discriminating between some no name university in Pakistan and a top western university is not social injustice, that's entirely the employer's prerogative based on which they think gives them better employees. If the government is forcing employers to stop discriminating between foreign and local qualifications then they would also have to stop employers from discriminating between say York and McGill, and then they would have to stop discriminating between employers who speak more languages and those less, and then stop discriminating based on people who are confident and those who are not,... all in the name of ''social justice''.

If the govt has no right to intervene then why did the US govt intervene via the Bail out package for the banks in 2008?

Not sure how it's relevant here.

Yeah right

Bush, iirc, was the first american president with double ivy phds and his staff was nothing but praise for his intellectual ability. That doesn't mean he was smart but I'm inclined to believe that based on the fact that nobody has any proof that he is dumb other than random videos where he makes mistakes.

 

[endymion248]

I have my sympathies for the accounting firm that has hired you.

A Canadian government CENSUS data somehow lying that most immigrants end up in Ontario and not Alberta. To prove a lazy immigrant's excuse for procrastination.

How come Quebec has comparatively less immigrants?