Why is Pakistan's bowling over hyped?

[MRSN]

From 150/5 they are looking favorite to win the game here chasing 330 against this England side. Does that tells you the bitter truth about how overrated and over hyped Pakistani bowlers are.

People compare our bowling with India which is laughable. This game should be a reality check for those who think Shaheen or Hassan or Rauf are better than ANY Indian fast bowler at the moment.

Request to people please stop overhyping these mediocre cricketers.

 

[MRSN]

Also this tells you more about the standards of PSL where Rauf, Shaheen and Faheem act like super stars and when you put them up against a little test like this they look like proper club level players. Really disappointed with the performance of the team today.

 

[sabre1486]

It is not just bowling. look at the fielding. shadab had to get stokes out three times there is zero urgency in the field. they do not hold on to chances. the bowlers have zero cricketing IQ. It is basically a very 'nice' but useless LOI team. No will, no skill, no bottle ....nothing.

 

[Majid Khan]

Shadab has probably cemented his place in the team today for the next couple of hours , after that 2-wicket haul — what a way to silence critics in style who claim you are only good enough to take 1 wicket.

 

[MRSN]

It is not just bowling. look at the fielding. shadab had to get stokes out three times there is zero urgency in the field. they do not hold on to chances. the bowlers have zero cricketing IQ. It is basically a very 'nice' but useless LOI team. No will, no skill, no bottle ....nothing.

Lack of common IQ is amazing and need to improve as well. This Faheem guy has been part of the team for few years now but his performance in this series shows he looks like a club level player.

 

[MRSN]

Shadab has probably cemented his place in the team today for the next couple of hours , after that 2-wicket haul — what a way to silence critics in style who claim you are only good enough to take 1 wicket.

It is amazing how these guys don't have a feeling of guilt after poor performances. I mean Rauf was smashed all day but then he took one wicket of a tailender and his celebration was like he bowled out Virat Kohli. Shaheen is similar. These players live in their own world. Not the best time to be a fan of Pakistan team with these low IQ, low skilled and over hyped players are your key players.

 

[OmarKhan99]

All the problems of PCT at the moment (poor fielding when it matters, collapses in matches that matter, missing the yorker when that's all you did all PSL, or just plain forgetting to bat or ball), are all symptoms of a nervous camp. The players need to understand that they belong at this level, need to trust their skills and express themselves.

They look so dejected as soon as even a smidgen of pressure is applied.

I'm not sure what the coaches/managers are doing, but they're definitely not inspiring any kind of genuine confidence in the players. Can do so much better.

 

[Forward Defensive Push]

History

 

[guna]

Pakistan was always known for its bowling. Times have changed. But the legend still lives.

Same with Indian batsmen ability to play spin. Long ago, Indian batsmen used to play spin well. Not anymore. But the legend still lives.

 

[MRSN]

All the problems of PCT at the moment (poor fielding when it matters, collapses in matches that matter, missing the yorker when that's all you did all PSL, or just plain forgetting to bat or ball), are all symptoms of a nervous camp. The players need to understand that they belong at this level, need to trust their skills and express themselves.

They look so dejected as soon as even a smidgen of pressure is applied.

I'm not sure what the coaches/managers are doing, but they're definitely not inspiring any kind of genuine confidence in the players. Can do so much better.

You can't feel confident when you are just not good enough. If that was the case then psychologist would have turned BD into no.1 team. You have to be enough skilful to succeed. Unfortunately not a lot of skilled players we have.

 

[Majid Khan]

It is amazing how these guys don't have a feeling of guilt after poor performances. I mean Rauf was smashed all day but then he took one wicket of a tailender and his celebration was like he bowled out Virat Kohli. Shaheen is similar. These players live in their own world. Not the best time to be a fan of Pakistan team with these low IQ, low skilled and over hyped players are your key players.

I think the lesson from the last 15-20 years of Pakistan cricket is to never celebrate mediocrity - do not let mediocre performers take their places for granted and secure , which then makes them become complacent and self-confident that they are superstars.

Only Babar Azam and Rizwan in the current team in my view have performed well enough to have secure places, the mediocre rest of them should even if they play be rotated and dropped regularly to keep them focused and force them to work hard to get back in the team where they fail.

Yes one might say Shaheen Shah Afridi is the best pace bowler in Pakistan right now, but he’s not proven himself at international level as yet , and his failures should not get ignored — drop him, rotate him, bring back Naseem ‘1-100’ Shah if you have to, how much worse will the team do.

My point is do not let cricketing nobodies have more job security than even Javed Miandad once had and the right to become ‘superstars’ and celebrities without showing any seriousness about playing for their country.

 

[unemployedgm]

The Bowlers are Raw including Hassan Ali. The system hasn't developed them.

 

[Ilan Bluestone]

People hype it?

There’s nothing special with the quicks or the spinners.

Just mediocrity personified.

 

[MRSN]

People hype it?

There’s nothing special with the quicks or the spinners.

Just mediocrity personified.

Yes. You will see in the PSL threads and in the games when we face lesser quality sides. People go on to make comparison with the Indian bowlers. There was a thread about Faheem vs Pandya and Rauf being better than Shami. Lol

 

[MRSN]

Today I have been convinced by Mamoon's famous quote. We deserve this humiliation. We belong here not amongst top three. Even WI has more talent than our pathetic overrated players.

 

[Prince of Pakistan]

Just by reputation.

People remember Wasim, Waqar, Akhtar, Asif and Gul. They then expect these ones to be good as well.

 

[Varun]

Just because you produced Wasim and Waqar once upon a time (and not organically through the system at that), you believe you should always be labelled as the greatest fast bowling nation without any follow through.

 

[Titan24]

Its based upon the past legacy. Stats of last decade of ODI cricket will show Pak has been one of the worst bowling units.

 

[Savak]

How you prepare reflects on the field. Have to question what kind of work Misbah and Waqar actually do with the side.

 

[OmarKhan99]

You can't feel confident when you are just not good enough. If that was the case then psychologist would have turned BD into no.1 team. You have to be enough skilful to succeed. Unfortunately not a lot of skilled players we have.

It's not the job of a psychologist to give you confidence. Confidence is a mindset, something that good momentum affords. Just recall the opening CT game and the final. The Pakistan sides spaced a month apart were completely different, and just because of big wins, because of added confidence.

Bangladesh's performances against India, Pakistan and England in 2015 transformed them as well.

Looking at the Pakistan camp from afar, given the constant chopping and changing, you see players being afraid they may lose their place if they don't perform in a game or two. That's why you've probably witnessed a lot of individual brilliance with this PCT XI, but on very few occasions did that translate to a Team win. Like shoving a cake down Fawad's throat after the century in defeat vs NZ (it was a good one, but still a defeat). Need to prioritize collective good over individual.

 

[castortroy]

Worst one day attack I have seen in pak for the last 20 years

 

[iniqbal223]

I thought Shaheen Afridi will fly kisses after the match is over

 

[Ab Fan]

It is a club level minnow pace attack. Even Srinath, Kuruvilla and Prasad can bowl better than this.

Moreover, the fielding is pretty average. They give easy singles and doubles as if we are playing in 1990s.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Pakistan stopped being a bowling powerhouse ever since Saeed Ajmal was banned for chucking. Saeed Ajmal who was although illegally, but single handedly covering up for the lowering bowling standards overall since 2010 spot fixing gate.

2010 was the last time Pakistan were a dangerous bowling line up.

1990s - Damn good
Early 2000s - Good
Late 2000s - Cornered Tigers good
2010s - Saeed Ajmal show & occassional lightening strikes
2015s above - Mediocre stuff

 

[castortroy]

Been saying it for a while but having Rauf and Hasan in the same team is suicidal.

They will perform better in the low bouncing tracks of Pak but lambs to the slaughter away from home

 

[Ahmed216]

Bring back amir junaid wahab

 

[castortroy]

Pakistan stopped being a bowling powerhouse ever since Saeed Ajmal was banned for chucking. Saeed Ajmal who was although illegally, but single handedly covering up for the lowering bowling standards overall since 2010 spot fixing gate.

2010 was the last time Pakistan were a dangerous bowling line up.

1990s - Damn good
Early 2000s - Good
Late 2000s - Cornered Tigers good
2010s - Saeed Ajmal show & occassional lightening strikes
2015s above - Mediocre stuff

100% agree with this.

Ajmal, afridi and hafeez was a decent attack who controlled most games

 

[Buffet]

Apart from few posters in PP and some nostalgic commentators, who does that?

 

[OmarKhan99]

Its based upon the past legacy. Stats of last decade of ODI cricket will show Pak has been one of the worst bowling units.

That might be the case, but it's never because of lack of skills, always been about the brains.

A good example is Hasan's over to Craig Overton when 16-odd were required. He bowls two good full balls (not yorkers, but at least somewhere near the stumps), and Craig/Carse just get a single. Then he bowls that typical 'bouncer' that's neither short enough, pacy enough, slow enough or even straight enough to do anything meaningful and he gets smacked to the boundary. Reminds me of Umar Gul, when he was past his prime. After that smack, Hasan follows it up with a hooping reverse swinging yorker right at the base of the stumps as a 'riposte' to the previous four, and Overton almost gets cleaned up. Then, Hasan goes back to length again. Why would you not be bowling that yorker more often? Genuinely baffling.

Saw a similar trend with Shaheen and Haris this series. And this is after the PSL, where all three were nailing yorker after yorker in the PSL. It's almost baffling why they didn't employ that more often, esp with the guy who made a career out of bowling yorkers in 90s as your actual bowling coach.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Because fans overhype and so do a few commies.

The last pakistani fast bowler to take 200 test wickets was Waqar. The last real world class fast bowler from Pakistan who was really worrying the batsmen consistently was Shoaib.

Since then it has been up and down kind of performance. Little consistency no longevity.

The loss of reverse swing has hurt Pakistan. While some may say that it was mainly due to tampering, i dont agree. Tampering may have played a big part but reverse is still possible.

Consistently playing minnows dont help esp playing them in Pakistan. People get carried away by the performances.

Hyping up players on the basis of PSL. With all due respect, PSL is a very avg league, top players from india eng aus NZ SA dont play it. Consistently saying that it has the best bowling talent doesn't change the fact that talent in psl is avg.

Pakistan needs to realise that they have a serious talent issue.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Apart from few posters in PP and some nostalgic commentators, who does that?

You will consistently hear PPers quoting thoss selective commies.

 

[Savak]

Because fans overhype and so do a few commies.

The last pakistani fast bowler to take 200 test wickets was Waqar. The last real world class fast bowler from Pakistan who was really worrying the batsmen consistently was Shoaib.

Since then it has been up and down kind of performance. Little consistency no longevity.

The loss of reverse swing has hurt Pakistan. While some may say that it was mainly due to tampering, i dont agree. Tampering may have played a big part but reverse is still possible.

Consistently playing minnows dont help esp playing them in Pakistan. People get carried away by the performances.

Hyping up players on the basis of PSL. With all due respect, PSL is a very avg league, top players from india eng aus NZ SA dont play it. Consistently saying that it has the best bowling talent doesn't change the fact that talent in psl is avg.

Pakistan needs to realise that they have a serious talent issue.

I come from the school of thought that you only develop anywhere in life when you consistently face the best. Pakistan just don't play enough against the likes of England, Australia, New Zealand, India and everytime they do, they get a very harsh reality check after playing mostly against Sri Lanka, Zimbabwe, West Indies, Bangladesh.

Skill level of Pakistani players is seriously out dated because most players are still stuck in the 90's be it batting or bowling tactics. I question the quality of practice the Pakistani players under take in the nets and in the off season because players from the Big 4 have taken their games to vastly different levels whereas our players either get worse or stagnate.

 

[Savak]

That might be the case, but it's never because of lack of skills, always been about the brains.

A good example is Hasan's over to Craig Overton when 16-odd were required. He bowls two good full balls (not yorkers, but at least somewhere near the stumps), and Craig/Carse just get a single. Then he bowls that typical 'bouncer' that's neither short enough, pacy enough, slow enough or even straight enough to do anything meaningful and he gets smacked to the boundary. Reminds me of Umar Gul, when he was past his prime. After that smack, Hasan follows it up with a hooping reverse swinging yorker right at the base of the stumps as a 'riposte' to the previous four, and Overton almost gets cleaned up. Then, Hasan goes back to length again. Why would you not be bowling that yorker more often? Genuinely baffling.

Saw a similar trend with Shaheen and Haris this series. And this is after the PSL, where all three were nailing yorker after yorker in the PSL. It's almost baffling why they didn't employ that more often, esp with the guy who made a career out of bowling yorkers in 90s as your actual bowling coach.

The yorker is over rated now and our bowling coach played in a very different era where the yorker was a very good aggressive and defensive option at the death. Modern T-20 batsmen now play yorkers better than anyone in the past, bowlers cannot just predictably and blindly bowl full paced yorkers at the stumps because batsmen have answers to it, you now have to have the ability to bowl 6 different deliveries in the over i.e. Fast Well Directed bouncer, Slower bouncer, Fast pitched yorker, wide yorker outside the stumps, finger spin slower delivery, back of the hand slower delivery e.t.c.

 

[street cricketer]

Yes. You will see in the PSL threads and in the games when we face lesser quality sides. People go on to make comparison with the Indian bowlers. There was a thread about Faheem vs Pandya and Rauf being better than Shami. Lol

As I keep saying in the threads about the quality of bowling being higher in the PSL - you cannot judge the bowling quality in a domestic tournament because the Pakistani bowlers are bowling to the Pakistani batsmen, who frankly aren't good enough Babar and Rizwan aside.

You can only judge by their performances in international cricket. Unfortunately lot of posters are just obsessed with the speedometer readings and don't really understand bowling as bowling is not just about speeds. Indian fans are no better either, many of them in Indian forums were advocating for Saini to be picked ahead of Siraj in Australia because Saini was quicker.

 

[OmarKhan99]

The yorker is over rated now and our bowling coach played in a very different era where the yorker was a very good aggressive and defensive option at the death. Modern T-20 batsmen now play yorkers better than anyone in the past, bowlers cannot just predictably and blindly bowl full paced yorkers at the stumps because batsmen have answers to it, you now have to have the ability to bowl 6 different deliveries in the over i.e. Fast Well Directed bouncer, Slower bouncer, Fast pitched yorker, wide yorker outside the stumps, finger spin slower delivery, back of the hand slower delivery e.t.c.

Did you watch the game? With what frequency do you think they bowled yorkers, and how many of those yorkers ended up being 'played well' or went for anything more than a double? What alternative did the bowlers employ as their 'change-up' and how many did those end up going for?

Regardless of how you shape up or shift around in the crease, the yorker is still the most difficult ball to hit at the death, especially when you have short boundaries (where even mishits off slower-ones, bouncers can soar past the boundary). Don't think most coaches would argue with that.

I can understand maybe not bowling yorkers to someone who has an affinity to playing scoops, laps etc. but why would you not bowl more balls at the stumps with tall fast bowlers at the crease with reasonably high back lifts, and who aren't really capable of those kind of dinky shots

 

[cricketjoshila]

I come from the school of thought that you only develop anywhere in life when you consistently face the best. Pakistan just don't play enough against the likes of England, Australia, New Zealand, India and everytime they do, they get a very harsh reality check after playing mostly against Sri Lanka, Zimbabwe, West Indies, Bangladesh.

Skill level of Pakistani players is seriously out dated because most players are still stuck in the 90's be it batting or bowling tactics. I question the quality of practice the Pakistani players under take in the nets and in the off season because players from the Big 4 have taken their games to vastly different levels whereas our players either get worse or stagnate.

To improve you need to realise you have a problem. Pakistan doesn't.

The hype about bowling in PSL and comparing it to IPL. The constant, pakistan is land of fast bowlers campaign. Don't think anyone knows that Pakistan has serious lack of skills.

 

[Artaxerxes]

There are around a dozen young/inexperienced fast bowlers who have all the ingredients to play at international level.Sadly Pakistan does not have the proper setup to develop them.There are no proper coaches to sort out their run ups,actions,foot landing etc.

 

[sweep_shot]

Pakistani bowling used to be world class but it is no longer as good as before. Things have declined significantly.

Pakistani batting now is better than their bowling.

 

[Savak]

Pakistan's bowling has not adapted to the changes in the limited overs format and how the ODI and T-20 batsmen have evolved. The bowlers are still bowling and operating as if this is the 90's.

 

[Savak]

To improve you need to realise you have a problem. Pakistan doesn't.

The hype about bowling in PSL and comparing it to IPL. The constant, pakistan is land of fast bowlers campaign. Don't think anyone knows that Pakistan has serious lack of skills.

Tbh, it is the foreign players in the PSL who have made comments to the effect about the PSL bowling standards being higher. I do agree that the bowlers in the PSL are not bowling to many world class players and also not bowling on Indian IPL style flat pancake wickets where the ball is coming on to the bat nicely.

 

[iniqbal223]

Misbah is wrong example to be Babar's coach

Misbah used to score his runs (at his own pace, irrespective of what team needs) Babar on same track

 

[sabre1486]

Lack of common IQ is amazing and need to improve as well. This Faheem guy has been part of the team for few years now but his performance in this series shows he looks like a club level player.

mentality and IQ midgets the entire roti gang to be fair. it was almost like they'd given up today. that was unforgiveable.

 

[pratiktc]

Pak trying very hard to make Faheem an ODI all-rounder given his Test batting bloom but bowling wise you simply can't rely on 10 ovs from him and his batting in ODIs is not upto scratch.

Guys like Rauf are infuriating because clearly there is some talent and natural gifts but bottles at critical time. Nevertheless not too concerned about pace attack because Shaheen and Hasan can carry it for next 3-4 yrs and there is some talent in wings.

In any case Pak is looking at 2023 WC in India which will need atleast 25-30 ovs of spin per game. Focus should be on working out which combo of Shadab, Usman, Zafar, Nawaz will work best.
Need wicket takers in middle overs and not Imad type containers

 

[gazza619]

The biggest blunder we made was that we played only 4.5 bowlers.

I would have played an extra bowler in Usman Qadir or Imad Wasim.

 

[PakHammer]

Usman Qadir should be in the ODI team, Shadab has not been consistent for years now. Rauf should be considered for T20's only. Flabbergasted he has made the test match squad for the last few series.

Shaheen and Hasan need to concede less runs to be considered truly world class.

They say you look like a world beater when you are out of the team.

But the likes of Wahab, Amir and Malik will be looking at the T20's here and the Windies with a keen eye. The recall game is back on for them.

 

[krikit]

Its not. Except for places such as PP for which you can blame guys like [MENTION=139165]naseem[/MENTION] and the several PSL>IPL threads.

 

[Mamoon]

The main reason for the decline in Pakistan’s fast bowling is because they are unable to tamper the ball with bottle-caps like they used to until the 90’s.

Our fast bowling legacy was built on cheating and all our great bowlers had inflated averages.

Waqar in particular owed his career to ball-tampering and bowling with doctored balls.

Today, no team can get away with the type of ball-tampering that the W&W did during the 1992 tour of England.

It was the most shameful exhibition of ball-tampering ever witnessed in a series.

Shaheen is a fantastic fast bowler. You give him the same balls that Pakistani bowlers used to bowl with in the 80’s and 90’s against tail-enders who could barely hold a bat and he too will create havoc and run through lineups.

As pathetic a bowler as Rauf is, you give him the same doctored balls and at his pace, he too will become unplayable.

The success of Pakistan’s fast bowling was always highly dependent on reverse-swing and that type of reverse-swing is not possible in today’s era because of the HD cameras and the greater scrutiny.

All great Pakistani bowlers of the past would have worse averages and strike rates had they played in this era.

You can bash the current crop of fast bowlers if you wish, but the reality is that they are severely disadvantaged and handicapped unlike the old era fast bowlers. It is simply not a level-playing field.

 

[krikit]

There is enough raw talent IMO. Just need guys like Gillespie, Mcgrath etc, who have experience coaching bowlers at a grassroot level to ensure that the basics are right and instill the bowling IQ needed to face international caliber batsman; into the system. A 6'6 bowler who can bowl at 140k is a solid base to build into a top-tier bowler but needs the right mentoring. Dunno why Wasim Akram isn't coaching Pakistan. He was great for Umesh and Shami at KKR.

 

[Usman Chadda]

There is talent, but no defined roles for these bowlers and no semblance of discipline. Waqar’s methods are not working clearly, as Shaheen has regressed alarmingly in the past few series under his watch. Such a wonderful talent, with all the skill in the world and to see him get dismantled by someone as mediocre as Phil Salt yesterday was a damning statement on Waqar’s coaching.

Haris Rauf should be persisted with, but with a defined role of bowling through the middle overs and at the death. Faheem should be dropped, adds no value with his rubbish bowling. Not sure how long it will take to develop Hasnain.

 

[AMSS]

Shocking to see the sentiments against Faheem. Was only yesterday the entirety of pakistani contingent on this forum were declaring him as Pandya's superior rival, especially in the bowling department.

 

[Usman Chadda]

Shocking to see the sentiments against Faheem. Was only yesterday the entirety of pakistani contingent on this forum were declaring him as Pandya's superior rival, especially in the bowling department.

Being superior than Pandya means nothing Faheem has regressed since his debut, he is barely hitting 82 MPH nowadays, when he was consistently upwards of 85 MPH in his first year.

The bowlers have talent, but they are not being developed properly. Someone like Shaheen would never have lost his way in any other country, but he is nothing more than a meme bowler right now.

 

[Mamoon]

Shocking to see the sentiments against Faheem. Was only yesterday the entirety of pakistani contingent on this forum were declaring him as Pandya's superior rival, especially in the bowling department.

Our fans know nothing about cricket. They are wrong 99% of the time.

Pakistan is not only the most bankrupt cricket nation in the world in terms of lack of talent but also in terms of the cricket acumen of the fans. The vast majority of them are absolutely clueless.

Pandya was always leagues above Faheem.

 

[AMSS]

Being superior than Pandya means nothing

Are you sure? Being Pandya's superior rival means winning a series against ENG's first choice XI as opposed to wetting the bed like Faheen did vs ENG D.

Look up what Pandya did to ENG in Feb/March.

 

[Snatch]

This 'hype' you speak of is only really driven by the same old delusional Pakistani fans who decide any player who plays one good innings with the bat, or one promising spell with the ball is then destined for greatness.

For knowledgeable well educated & well grounded cricket fans around the world, there's very little hype about their bowling.

 

[sharmaji]

Why are we talking only about fast bowling? I always regarded Pak spinners much higher than their fast bowlers. Saqlain, Kaneria, Saeed Ajmal, Afridi, Hafeez, Yasir ran through the batting lineups of all top teams so many times. Shadab, however earnest he is, is not good enough as a pure spinner who threatens the top batsmen. He makes team only as an allrounder, what Pak needs are two world-class spinners who can get wickets or be economical if needed.

 

[UzmanBeast]

The main reason for the decline in Pakistan’s fast bowling is because they are unable to tamper the ball with bottle-caps like they used to until the 90’s.

Our fast bowling legacy was built on cheating and all our great bowlers had inflated averages.

Waqar in particular owed his career to ball-tampering and bowling with doctored balls.

Today, no team can get away with the type of ball-tampering that the W&W did during the 1992 tour of England.

It was the most shameful exhibition of ball-tampering ever witnessed in a series.

Shaheen is a fantastic fast bowler. You give him the same balls that Pakistani bowlers used to bowl with in the 80’s and 90’s against tail-enders who could barely hold a bat and he too will create havoc and run through lineups.

As pathetic a bowler as Rauf is, you give him the same doctored balls and at his pace, he too will become unplayable.

The success of Pakistan’s fast bowling was always highly dependent on reverse-swing and that type of reverse-swing is not possible in today’s era because of the HD cameras and the greater scrutiny.

All great Pakistani bowlers of the past would have worse averages and strike rates had they played in this era.

You can bash the current crop of fast bowlers if you wish, but the reality is that they are severely disadvantaged and handicapped unlike the old era fast bowlers. It is simply not a level-playing field.

I agree with this.

Waqar's career was dependent on ball tampering. It was quite evident given that he couldn't even bowl with the new ball in his late 30s.

Wasim is respected much more because his skill with the new ball was phenomenal.

Our bowlers thrived on reverse swing, but nowadays, white-ball cricket is about plans and execution. Chances from batsmen come rarely, so you need to be on top of your game.

Awareness is something our bowlers don't have. I don't know what compels them to bowl short after getting hammered for six by the same short delivery.

 

[PakLFC]

Coz of the past greats like Wasim, Waqar, Sarfaraz, and Imran. People tend to think the current crop will suddenly reach such standards. It is like how the Brazil Football side still carries the expectations of their past great sides.

 

[Saj]

Misbah today "The last few series all our bowlers did well especially against South Africa. But in this series we were average and below par, we were poor and we need to pick up. Shaheen, Hassan and Haris have been producing good performances of late and Faheem bowled very well in South Africa. Obviously they’ve not been able to bowl in the last 2 or 3 matches like they have been and how they should have. Hopefully all of these bowlers can make a string comeback in the next series and improve and help Pakistan win matches once again as they have in the past. This has been an off-colour series for them for the whole team in all departments especially our fast-bowling."

 

[ChennaiFan]

Coz of the past greats like Wasim, Waqar, Sarfaraz, and Imran. People tend to think the current crop will suddenly reach such standards. It is like how the Brazil Football side still carries the expectations of their past great sides.

Good Analogy! Yes, we expect Brazil to do well in any football game regardless of the players on the team.
Pakistan may have good raw bowling talent. But, to succeed in international cricket, they need training and development. It is as simple as that. But it is easier said than done. A system of talent hunting, player development, and workload management is a long time process to see any meaningful success. I am not sure if Paskitan's domestic system is set up to do that. PSL or any other T20 league is not going to develop fast bowlers.

 

[PakLFC]

Good Analogy! Yes, we expect Brazil to do well in any football game regardless of the players on the team.
Pakistan may have good raw bowling talent. But, to succeed in international cricket, they need training and development. It is as simple as that. But it is easier said than done. A system of talent hunting, player development, and workload management is a long time process to see any meaningful success. I am not sure if Paskitan's domestic system is set up to do that. PSL or any other T20 league is not going to develop fast bowlers.

Pak is still living on old glories. Other Cricketing nations have left us well behind. India does not even care much about Sachin these days where as we are still on about Wasim and Waqar! As you have rightly observed Pak does not have a system that polishes raw talent in to international class players.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

They either lack the skill or consistency in executing their skills. I feel its the latter. In the 2nd ODI , I read a stat which showed that the rookie English seam attack bowled 50 % of the deliveries on a good length in the first 15 overs whereas the Pakistani attack only bowled 37 % .

It may not seem like much but its these fine margins that determine key battles in each phase of the game. That rigorous consistency of execution that is the hallmark of highly professional teams is lacking.

 

[Cricketrenew]

Pak bowling is over hyped due to history, current crop is mundane.
We had Imran, Sarfraz, Waqar, Wasim, Akhter, Mushtaq Ahmed, Saqlain, Ajmal, Aamir (who wasted his own talent).....
Now the talent is just ordinary no stand outs.
False hopes ie Yasir Shah.... Shaheen Shah Afridi.... Rauf...
Guess we were lucky in the past, wish the team had given 100% in the past they could have been world beaters

 

[Titan24]

That might be the case, but it's never because of lack of skills, always been about the brains.

A good example is Hasan's over to Craig Overton when 16-odd were required. He bowls two good full balls (not yorkers, but at least somewhere near the stumps), and Craig/Carse just get a single. Then he bowls that typical 'bouncer' that's neither short enough, pacy enough, slow enough or even straight enough to do anything meaningful and he gets smacked to the boundary. Reminds me of Umar Gul, when he was past his prime. After that smack, Hasan follows it up with a hooping reverse swinging yorker right at the base of the stumps as a 'riposte' to the previous four, and Overton almost gets cleaned up. Then, Hasan goes back to length again. Why would you not be bowling that yorker more often? Genuinely baffling.

Saw a similar trend with Shaheen and Haris this series. And this is after the PSL, where all three were nailing yorker after yorker in the PSL. It's almost baffling why they didn't employ that more often, esp with the guy who made a career out of bowling yorkers in 90s as your actual bowling coach.

I agree but, basic skills can only get you so far (They are in the national team). To become a world class prospect you need to refine those skills and put in the hard work to achieve consistency. Guys like Wasim, Mcgrath, Steyn, Donald etc used to put in extreme amounts of work on their game. Everybody talks about how skillful Wasim was but, it often gets under the radar that he used to ball at a single stump day in and day out alongside miles of jogging and other drills.

Ability to ball 3 good balls in an over is not good enough Yes, bowling three balls with pace and some movement means one has the basic skills however to be a world class performer you should be able to get 5-6 balls in the good area more often than not otherwise you will be feasted upon any any format, more so in white ball cricket.

My gripe with Pakistani bowlers and to an extent team as a whole is that they don't do the basics right. As a professional that is irresponsible and shows guys are either not putting in enough effort or they are putting it in wrong direction. When you do basics right even if you lack skill (Which I dont think some of the Pak bowlers do) the opposition has to try and win the match, Pak bowlers sometimes give those matches on a platter with their inability to do just the basics of the game right.

Not sure what they look at in the nets and in matches. It shouldnt be the speed guns rather which guy can hit the good area more consistently and that should be the basic criteria to judge form as well. Yes the next step to compare would be the ability to ball at the death (For white ball cricket) and overall speed however, the basic criteria has to remain the same. I doubt many bowling lineups deliver as many loose balls as Pak team does which definitely needs to be looked at.

I personally think that the current set of pacers we have are much better than we had around 2015 in terms of basic skills but, it is rarely reflected in results because of the mentioned reasons.

 

[Titan24]

They either lack the skill or consistency in executing their skills. I feel its the latter. In the 2nd ODI , I read a stat which showed that the rookie English seam attack bowled 50 % of the deliveries on a good length in the first 15 overs whereas the Pakistani attack only bowled 37 % .

It may not seem like much but its these fine margins that determine key battles in each phase of the game. That rigorous consistency of execution that is the hallmark of highly professional teams is lacking.

Well put. I have also touched this point few times that there is lack of basics and inability to hit the good length more often than not. Thats just not good enough and if there is some data to show good lengths hit by bowlers over the years, I think Pak bowling will be one of the worst out of the main teams.

 

[Savak]

Well put. I have also touched this point few times that there is lack of basics and inability to hit the good length more often than not. Thats just not good enough and if there is some data to show good lengths hit by bowlers over the years, I think Pak bowling will be one of the worst out of the main teams.

Tbh Pakistani bowlers are also bowling to quality batsmen who have the art, talent of hitting very good deliveries for 4's or 6's. The shots that the England opener played to Shaheen Afridi where he smashed him for 4 consecutive boundaries, a Pakistani opener might have just left, defended or blocked. Our bowlers do very well against minnow teams of Zimbabwe, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, West Indies but get shown up against the batsmen from Australia, New Zealand, England, India all the time.

 

[Titan24]

Tbh Pakistani bowlers are also bowling to quality batsmen who have the art, talent of hitting very good deliveries for 4's or 6's. The shots that the England opener played to Shaheen Afridi where he smashed him for 4 consecutive boundaries, a Pakistani opener might have just left, defended or blocked. Our bowlers do very well against minnow teams of Zimbabwe, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, West Indies but get shown up against the batsmen from Australia, New Zealand, England, India all the time.

Fair point but, if we talk about yesterday's match as an example there was atleast one delivery in almost every over bowled by pacers which was either too full or too short and sometimes too wide.

As you mentioned Eng batsmen are good enough to hit the good length balls as well to which I completely agree however, I would rather want to watch them play those strokes on good balls and at the end as a fan saying they were just too good rather than our bowlers giving them the feast of their life.

 

[Hitman]

It's because of their rich history of fast bowlers. The last Pakistani bowler who was really good was Shoaib Akhtar. Make no mistake, he was no great with just 178 Test wickets and being a complete spoilt child, but when he was fit and raring to go, he was really good.

 

[MesonK]

It's because of their rich history of fast bowlers. The last Pakistani bowler who was really good was Shoaib Akhtar. Make no mistake, he was no great with just 178 Test wickets and being a complete spoilt child, but when he was fit and raring to go, he was really good.

Your logic is pure Indian. Quantity of test wickets mean nothing if your average and strike rate is a waste. Kapil dev has as many wickets as Steyn and Akram yet he averages more than Kemar roach. Pat Cummins has almost half the wickets Ishant Sharma has yet averages 21 while Legendary Sharma averages 32+.

Pakistan produced Asif after Akhtar who averaged less than any Indian fast bowler in tests to cross 100 wickets ever. Similarly we do not know where would Abbas, Hassan Ali and Shaheen end. All average less than 30 (Abbas averages 22 and is close to 100 test wickets) and has been recalled. Pakistan just plays very less quantity of test matches esp in SENA otherwise one of these men can easily get passed 200 wickets with 23-25 like average.

 

[OmarKhan99]

I agree but, basic skills can only get you so far (They are in the national team). To become a world class prospect you need to refine those skills and put in the hard work to achieve consistency. Guys like Wasim, Mcgrath, Steyn, Donald etc used to put in extreme amounts of work on their game. Everybody talks about how skillful Wasim was but, it often gets under the radar that he used to ball at a single stump day in and day out alongside miles of jogging and other drills.

Ability to ball 3 good balls in an over is not good enough Yes, bowling three balls with pace and some movement means one has the basic skills however to be a world class performer you should be able to get 5-6 balls in the good area more often than not otherwise you will be feasted upon any any format, more so in white ball cricket.

My gripe with Pakistani bowlers and to an extent team as a whole is that they don't do the basics right. As a professional that is irresponsible and shows guys are either not putting in enough effort or they are putting it in wrong direction. When you do basics right even if you lack skill (Which I dont think some of the Pak bowlers do) the opposition has to try and win the match, Pak bowlers sometimes give those matches on a platter with their inability to do just the basics of the game right.

Not sure what they look at in the nets and in matches. It shouldnt be the speed guns rather which guy can hit the good area more consistently and that should be the basic criteria to judge form as well. Yes the next step to compare would be the ability to ball at the death (For white ball cricket) and overall speed however, the basic criteria has to remain the same. I doubt many bowling lineups deliver as many loose balls as Pak team does which definitely needs to be looked at.

I personally think that the current set of pacers we have are much better than we had around 2015 in terms of basic skills but, it is rarely reflected in results because of the mentioned reasons.

I agree with what you've said, but I kind of see it from a different lens. I think it's more to do with the state of mind. There's definitely something oft-putting in our cricketing system of the recent past. The players when entering into the system are almost always very bubbly/lively/ambitious characters, but as they play on, they tend to become more reserved, less ambitious and seem like a mere shadow of their younger/hungrier selves.

It's kind of like a batsman when they're in form and when they're out of form. In both scenarios, the batsman has the same skills and probably even works slightly harder when in a rut. Yet, when out of form, they will struggle to score runs. The crucial difference between the two is the way the batsman approached the game and their self-belief in their current rhythm, i.e. state of mind. One lacks self-belief, one doesn't

The depleted England side was vastly inferior skill-wise (imo) but they just approached the game with a more positive frame of mind. If you're thinking about things like, "Will I be dropped and then be forgotten to the system, if I don't perform here", etc., you tend to lose the basics as well. The management/administration team needs a freshen up. I think they're, perhaps inadvertently, feeding into the negative mindset where the environment is more focused on "let's not lose against this weakened side or Zimbabwe" rather than the "let's win this thing, whoever it may be against" mindset.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Your logic is pure Indian. Quantity of test wickets mean nothing if your average and strike rate is a waste. Kapil dev has as many wickets as Steyn and Akram yet he averages more than Kemar roach. Pat Cummins has almost half the wickets Ishant Sharma has yet averages 21 while Legendary Sharma averages 32+.

Pakistan produced Asif after Akhtar who averaged less than any Indian fast bowler in tests to cross 100 wickets ever. Similarly we do not know where would Abbas, Hassan Ali and Shaheen end. All average less than 30 (Abbas averages 22 and is close to 100 test wickets) and has been recalled. Pakistan just plays very less quantity of test matches esp in SENA otherwise one of these men can easily get passed 200 wickets with 23-25 like average.

Asif or Abbas or Hassan Ali dont even come into the picture of any comparison when they together dont have 300 test wickets. Avg means little when the number of wickets are so less. Avg over a period of time is the measure of consistency that what matters.

The last World class pakistani fast bowler with some consistency was Akhtar. After him its all aaya ram gaya ram.

 

[Kianig89]

Being in overhyped mood since 2011 WC
No real intimidating bowler no mystery spinner pop gun attack roll over spinners

 

[MRSN]

Hassan should thank his stars he is born in Pakistan in right era and not in India in the same era. He would struggle to make their B team let alone national side. Also the way Shaheen is overhyped is amazing. Not that I don't acknowledge his quality but he doesn't have that match winning ability like Cummins 2 5fers shown.

The less said about the spinners the better. 40 years old No-Man with no future and an off spinner who bats better than his bowling and his batting is as good as no.10 guy.

 

[RyanRyan10]

Hassan should thank his stars he is born in Pakistan in right era and not in India in the same era. He would struggle to make their B team let alone national side. Also the way Shaheen is overhyped is amazing. Not that I don't acknowledge his quality but he doesn't have that match winning ability like Cummins 2 5fers shown.

The less said about the spinners the better. 40 years old No-Man with no future and an off spinner who bats better than his bowling and his batting is as good as no.10 guy.

Hasan Ali & Shaheen Afridi have bashed weak teams like Zim, WI and BD. Against other teams, he has 42 wickets @30.21 in 12 tests. Shaheen has picked up 44 wickets @36+ in 15 tests against same teams.