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Why was Shabbir Ahmed called for chucking?

jusarrived

jusarrived

Test Debutant
Joined
Dec 23, 2005
Runs
13,524
Action looks clean to me . I have seen far worse bowling actions who are being allowed to bowl .
 
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I think PCB didn't put up any fight for him. He was an excellent bowler and with a relatively fine action if we consider 15 degrees bend.
 
If PCB fought for him like they did for Shoaib or Lanka did for Murli this guy would have had over 250 test wickets by now. Was a damn fine bowler.
 
Because he was a nobody.

It's easy for the ICC to ban people like Shabir, Samuals, Abdur Razzak etc from bowling but they won't dare pick on the big boys.
 
I dont get the logic behind that 15 Deg rule . Just by seeing , you know if a bowler is chucking or not . Shabbir dosent look like hes throwing the ball to me .

what a waste of talent .
 
jusarrived said:
I dont get the logic behind that 15 Deg rule . Just by seeing , you know if a bowler is chucking or not . Shabbir dosent look like hes throwing the ball to me .

what a waste of talent .
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Most who have illegal bowling actions don't throw every ball. In fact they probably only throw a tiny minority of their deliveries. The 'effort ball' more often than not.

You'd have to watch someone bowl lots of deliveries before you can state if someone is or isn't chucking.
 
Gabbar Singh said:
Because he was a nobody.

It's easy for the ICC to ban people like Shabir, Samuals, Abdur Razzak etc from bowling but they won't dare pick on the big boys.
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He had average of under 25 in tests so ofcourse he was very good find. But he did chuck when he wanted, was warned by ICC but still kept chuking when he liked. I think it was against England, his last test match.

ICC had cleared him but there is difference between bowling in lab and on the pitch. Ajmal wasnt a big boy when he was reported and cleared. And if he had changed his action between lab and match then ICC also have had reported him again and banned for life.
 
jusarrived said:
I dont get the logic behind that 15 Deg rule . Just by seeing , you know if a bowler is chucking or not . Shabbir dosent look like hes throwing the ball to me .

what a waste of talent .
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It was big loss for Pakistan, guy had average of under 25 in tests. PCB can only go so far for someone. He chucked when he wanted something extra out of the pitch and was warned by ICC. Ofcourse he could bowl normal as well but you cant chuck when you like and get away with it.
 
Gabbar Singh said:
Most who have illegal bowling actions don't throw every ball. In fact they probably only throw a tiny minority of their deliveries. The 'effort ball' more often than not.

You'd have to watch someone bowl lots of deliveries before you can state if someone is or isn't chucking.
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I agree , but the ones who selectively throw tend to get away .

I watched quite a bit of him on TV last week , so my observation was based on that not just the above link.
Shabbir compares with Praveen kumar , who i think also has a kink in his action , but if PK is fine i see no issues with SA as well .
 
jusarrived said:
I dont get the logic behind that 15 Deg rule . Just by seeing , you know if a bowler is chucking or not . Shabbir dosent look like hes throwing the ball to me .

what a waste of talent .
Click to expand...

Issue with Shabbir was that as he got tired in a spell his action deteriorated. So he wouldn't chuck for the first 10-15 overs but as his spell went beyond that his chuck became very blatant.
He was reported twice I think. He fixed his action came back and then in his last full tour of the WI Inzi had him bowling 20-25 odd overs in a innings. As he went past over 15 his chucks were very blatant. Shoaib, Sami and Gul were there at that time so the effort and time required to get him "fixed" wasn't worth it.
He was a good control bowler. Had the height and the high arm action to bowl that awkward good length delivery. But due to the fact that he was a control bowler it was in-inevitable that he would be bowling allot of overs in a game specially with Shoaib or Sami playing. As both those guys wont be bowling more then 15 overs in a day.
I think in the end he was re-called to the squad in SA after the Shoaib hitting Asif with the bat incident. Inzi really fought for him, he flew into SA played a side game I think and got injured. His fitness was the issue ultimately. If he had kept fit, he wouldn't have chucked that blatantly and would have played more.
 
Invictus said:
Issue with Shabbir was that as he got tired in a spell his action deteriorated. So he wouldn't chuck for the first 10-15 overs but as his spell went beyond that his chuck became very blatant.
He was reported twice I think. He fixed his action came back and then in his last full tour of the WI Inzi had him bowling 20-25 odd overs in a innings. As he went past over 15 his chucks were very blatant. Shoaib, Sami and Gul were there at that time so the effort and time required to get him "fixed" wasn't worth it.
He was a good control bowler. Had the height and the high arm action to bowl that awkward good length delivery. But due to the fact that he was a control bowler it was in-inevitable that he would be bowling allot of overs in a game specially with Shoaib or Sami playing. As both those guys wont be bowling more then 15 overs in a day.
I think in the end he was re-called to the squad in SA after the Shoaib hitting Asif with the bat incident. Inzi really fought for him, he flew into SA played a side game I think and got injured. His fitness was the issue ultimately. If he had kept fit, he wouldn't have chucked that blatantly and would have played more.
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So the reason he chucked sometimes was because he got tired? He was very good find for Pakistan, not Asif but not far behind.
 
jusarrived said:
I agree , but the ones who selectively throw tend to get away .

I watched quite a bit of him on TV last week , so my observation was based on that not just the above link.
Shabbir compares with Praveen kumar , who i think also has a kink in his action , but if PK is fine i see no issues with SA as well .
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Not the case at all since even Shabbir didnt chuck all the time. ICC have close eye on those bowlers who have been reported to see if they change action between lab and real match.
 
Really!

If there ever was a "fast" bowler at the international level who chucks than it was ours truly Mr.Shabbir Ahmed.

No need to go to Australia or any other country or facility to judge via slow motion camera if he was chucking, it was so obvious.
 
Still remember his debut against the Windies in 1999? I think. Got Gayle bowled out in the first over and also conceded two 4-wides. Was initially tipped to be as fast as Shoaib, but obviously didn't have the discipline or control.
 
Shabbir wasn't quick i think. He was always bowling 125-135s even with a crooked bowling action.
 
jusarrived said:
I agree , but the ones who selectively throw tend to get away .

I watched quite a bit of him on TV last week , so my observation was based on that not just the above link.
Shabbir compares with Praveen kumar , who i think also has a kink in his action , but if PK is fine i see no issues with SA as well .
Click to expand...

PK bends/jerks/push his wrist like Steyn, there is almost no bend from elbow, unlike Shabbir.
 
jusarrived said:
I dont get the logic behind that 15 Deg rule . Just by seeing , you know if a bowler is chucking or not . Shabbir dosent look like hes throwing the ball to me .

what a waste of talent .
Click to expand...

I agree that this is a very sad case, and just the latest in a long line going back to the early years of the modern game and beyond.

With respect though I disagree with your other point. You can't always tell with the naked eye whether or not a bowler is chucking. You would need to view the delivery from more than one angle in order to tell for sure, something that a square leg umpire is not in a position to do on the spot without the aid of technology. The 15 degree rule was brought in because scientific analysis proved that nearly all bowlers straighten to some extent. For the first time bowlers now have a clear benchmark as to what is acceptable.

I have no problem with the logic of the 15 degree rule. I think it makes perfect sense. My main problem with the 15 degree rule is that it's completely unenforceable. That's why I have reluctantly come around to the idea that chucking should be legalised.
 
jusarrived said:
I dont get the logic behind that 15 Deg rule . Just by seeing , you know if a bowler is chucking or not . Shabbir dosent look like hes throwing the ball to me .

what a waste of talent .
Click to expand...

You can't conclude years later on the basis of one clip that he wasn't a chucker. I watched his entire short career and there is no doubt whatsoever that he was a clear chucker.

He did remodel his action with the help of Bob Woolmer and Bob even organised a long net session with Aleem Dar standing as umpire to judge Shabir's action. Aleem Dar deemed it clean in the nets but there was no doubt that when the pressure was on, he reverted to his old, chucking action. It is almost impossible for a grown man to remodel his entire bowling action.
 
He was a Test Class bowler, got wickets. Unfortunately Pakistan have treated there fast bowlers in such way , thus find them struggling to find good new ball bowlers.
 
His chucking increased as the game wore on and for that reason in test matches you would be blind to not call him for chucking in the later innings
 
Random Aussie said:
Because he was clearly a chucker.
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Agreed 100%..

I remember seeing him chuck the ball, it was very blatant. And then he made his return against SA in T20s and was bowling like crap.
 
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He was a chucker. Rightly banned from international cricket. Period.
 
PennOne said:
Question is where is he now
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i think up to a couple of months ago he was still playing domestic cricket. i dont know if he has remodelled his action as alot of the footage is from 2006-7 but he has been consistently playing domestic since then. Am not entirely sure but i dont think a chucker can even play domestic cricket.

Shame we lost him so early, had it in him to be a great bowler but he could have been better managed and coached to get rid of that kink.
 
Abid Z said:
i think up to a couple of months ago he was still playing domestic cricket. i dont know if he has remodelled his action as alot of the footage is from 2006-7 but he has been consistently playing domestic since then. Am not entirely sure but i dont think a chucker can even play domestic cricket.

Shame we lost him so early, had it in him to be a great bowler but he could have been better managed and coached to get rid of that kink.
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He can bowl normally as well but as other poster said when he get tired he started chucking.
 
shan said:
He can bowl normally as well but as other poster said when he get tired he started chucking.
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But is he still chucking from 2007 onwards and managing to play domestic cricket??
if so, does that mean that the chucking rule doesnt apply in domestic cricket?
 
Beeray sadly isnt a bowler and would be better advised taking up Darts or javelin throwing am afraid.
 
lol at posting a video where you can't see his action at all. But no, his action didn't really look that bad from what I could see. Freddie Flintoff & Brett Lee both used to chuck when they were tired & going wide on the crease.

They generally leave domestic cricket up to the discretion of the home board.
 
he was ok with his bowling at beginning but later on (few series later) got really bad. specially in that series against WI in WI
 
He was a blatant thrower, didn't show hyper-extension or another deformity and was rightfully banned. Also, he wasn't a 'nobody', he was banned after a match-winning bowling spell and I think he was one of the quickest Pakistanis to 50 wickets.
 
The worst action i have ever seen is of Malinga..it is like he is palying darts instead of bowling..i dont understand why ICC havent taken a notice of it.
 
randompaki said:
The worst action i have ever seen is of Malinga..it is like he is palying darts instead of bowling..i dont understand why ICC havent taken a notice of it.
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seriously ??......malingas elbow is perfectly all right , he has a slingy action , doesnt mean its illegal:akhtar
 
Also i agree the fifteen degree rules should be abolished, you can just tell by naked eye if a bowler chucks or not. Oh and Shabbir is a blatant chucker.
 
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He was a chucker. Do a search for "Shabbir Ahmed" on this forum and you will see what people's opinions were even back then.
 
Big Harvey said:
I agree that this is a very sad case, and just the latest in a long line going back to the early years of the modern game and beyond.

With respect though I disagree with your other point. You can't always tell with the naked eye whether or not a bowler is chucking. You would need to view the delivery from more than one angle in order to tell for sure, something that a square leg umpire is not in a position to do on the spot without the aid of technology. The 15 degree rule was brought in because scientific analysis proved that nearly all bowlers straighten to some extent. For the first time bowlers now have a clear benchmark as to what is acceptable.

I have no problem with the logic of the 15 degree rule. I think it makes perfect sense. My main problem with the 15 degree rule is that it's completely unenforceable. That's why I have reluctantly come around to the idea that chucking should be legalised.
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That's a first for me. Cricket will become baseball then. People DISRESPECT chuckers.
 
what if we change the rules to allow bowlers to bend their elbows......like baseball

then we would have faster pacers, consistantly exceeding 100 MPH, maybe even 105 MPH :akhtar
 
where is he now..feel really bad ofr him,he was treat to watch,,seam,swing,height,high arm action,,pace...
 
odd that we disliked shabbir for chucking but some even support ajmal till now
 
Sabbir had a better action than many bowlers since then. ICC first went to crack down chucking tough, then they found the whole village may stand in the cue, so they started to lose ...... and then it became opposite - even Ajmal wasn't called during that T20 WC match at Mirpur, when WI sloggers rounded him around.

Finally, it has come down to a mid point, which is fair enough. I am sure, if these 15 degree rule was applied in 1920-30-40-50-60-70-80-90s ...... many greats would have found it troublesome.
 
DRsohail said:
where is he now..feel really bad ofr him,he was treat to watch,,seam,swing,height,high arm action,,pace...
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And a bent elbow.

He was perhaps the most blatant chucker among fast bowlers.

Fun to watch though.
 
That 3rd ODI in Peshawar I think in 2004, where he bowled Sehwag through the gate, got Tendulkar caught, and then had Laxman caught in gully...that was some seam/swing bowling of the highest grade and his action at that time looked very clean as well. He was bowling in the 140 KMH range and looked just unplayable:

O M R W ECON
Shabbir Ahmed 10.0 0 33 3 3.30


More than getting tired, I think his fitness levels got him in the mess. Due to poor fitness, he got injured much quicker than others and then his action just went south from there. He was someone was very economical as well and hard to get away too!
 
Monsee said:
That 3rd ODI in Peshawar I think in 2004, where he bowled Sehwag through the gate, got Tendulkar caught, and then had Laxman caught in gully...that was some seam/swing bowling of the highest grade and his action at that time looked very clean as well. He was bowling in the 140 KMH range and looked just unplayable:

O M R W ECON
Shabbir Ahmed 10.0 0 33 3 3.30


More than getting tired, I think his fitness levels got him in the mess. Due to poor fitness, he got injured much quicker than others and then his action just went south from there. He was someone was very economical as well and hard to get away too!
Click to expand...

or, maybe he was chucking from the get go and got all those wickets through that?
 
^^^Nope, his chucking was only visible when he just looked really drained out or striving to geta wicket; he had some real good skiils for sure with good pace 135 to 145 KMH range (heard earlier on he was even quicker), he almost set the record for 50 Test wickets for Pak in real quick time and excellent average as well. You have to have some decent skills to do that, chucking or not; it is not as if when someone chucks, they automatically get wickets every ball!

I have seen some chuckers and played against a few as well, not every chucker is getting bucket load of wickets. Batsmen don't just hand you the wickets just because you are throwing, there has to be some exceptional skill to begin with
 
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Monsee said:
That 3rd ODI in Peshawar I think in 2004, where he bowled Sehwag through the gate, got Tendulkar caught, and then had Laxman caught in gully...that was some seam/swing bowling of the highest grade and his action at that time looked very clean as well. He was bowling in the 140 KMH range and looked just unplayable:

O M R W ECON
Shabbir Ahmed 10.0 0 33 3 3.30


More than getting tired, I think his fitness levels got him in the mess. Due to poor fitness, he got injured much quicker than others and then his action just went south from there. He was someone was very economical as well and hard to get away too!
Click to expand...

yap.i went through hishlits of that match,,he got laxman through the gate as well...his action looks clean..
 
DRsohail said:
yap.i went through hishlits of that match,,he got laxman through the gate as well...his action looks clean..
Click to expand...




Yes, that looked very clean and smooth but I think he got injured right after that game and when he came back his action was a mess; this repeated a few times again and he was pretty much gone after that!

Had PCB taken any interest in getting him some help (like some other posters mentioned as well) to improve his fitness, get his action sorted out, have him monitored for a while to ensure his action becomes repeatable etc. we would have had a guy who could swing/cut it very well, with decent pace and extra bounce (that was key).

Instead they selected pie chuckers like Rana Naveed, Sami and Co. even after they clearly displayed any lack of Test class at all!
 
What a bowler this guy was. Lack of fitness and lack of support from pcb meant he had such a short career. Was very quick when he first burst on the scene.
 
ataullah said:
What a bowler this guy was. Lack of fitness and lack of support from pcb meant he had such a short career. Was very quick when he first burst on the scene.
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He could have had a successful career at javelin
 
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