Will anyone ever replace Kapil Dev as greatest Asian bowler in Australia?

[Bhaijaan]

11 matches, 51 wickets @24.58, 5 fifers, one 8 wicket haul


Wasim Akram came very close with 36 wickets.


Someone like young Jasprit Bumrah could replace Kapil in future. He has pace, can bowl a good line length and has lots of cricket left in him.

Having said that 50+ test wickets in Australia is a HUGE deal for an Asian bowler. Historically Australia has been a graveyard for Asian bowlers.

Even the great Imran Khan was ineffective in Australia.

 

[Buffet]

It's too far away for the likes of Bumrah playing their first series.

 

[Bhaijaan]

To put things into perspective, the following great bowlers all average 40+ in Australia :-


Lasith Mallinga - 40.08
Waqar Younis - 40.50
Danish Kaneria- 40.58
Chaminda Vaas - 41.70
Shoaib Akhtar - 43.52
Ravi Ashwin - 48.70
Mohammad Amir - 48.53
Javagal Srinath - 50.70
Abdul Qadir - 61.00

 

[happydavy]

Hakikat hai ye khwaab nahi
Kapil paaji da jawaab nahi

 

[greatest]

Imran bowled pretty well on his first three test tours of Australia in 1976/77, 1978/79 and 1981/82. In his last two series 1983/84 he played only two tests as a batsman and in 1989/90 also as a batsman. So whenever he bowled he did bowled well against them, but then the stats will not give a clear picture.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Imran bowled pretty well on his first three test tours of Australia in 1976/77, 1978/79 and 1981/82. In his last two series 1983/84 he played only two tests as a batsman and in 1989/90 also as a batsman. So whenever he bowled he did bowled well against them, but then the stats will not give a clear picture.

Imran will always be remembered as a great player. His talent is not under any question in this thread my dear friend. He is a treasure of Asia and one of the greatest captains ever along with Jardine, Pataudi, Lloyd etc

 

[Robert]

Kapil’s record in Australia and WI is why I rate him higher than Botham as a bowler. Also poor Kapil did not have Bob Willis to help him.

 

[Slog]

Wow I didn’t know Kapil had such a good record in Australia!

Thanks for sharing!

 

[Chief Destroyer]

That's a pretty good record but Wasim averaged 18-19 in his first two tours there. That's as good as it gets.

 

[gazza619]

Good stuff by Kapil paa jee

 

[wrongun]

Kapil was rated very highly here. The thing with him too was that even though he sometimes didn't have great support, his heart & fitness were good enough that he was always coming back hard, never gave up.

Compare to someone like SHoaib (not really rated well here) who Langer & Hayden knew they had only to see off his first spell- in fact just his first few overs without a wicket you could visibly see break his confidence sometimes. He wouldn't come back hard after a disappointment.

Wasim & Imran are both rated very highly for their performances here. I think Imran's latter end when he was restricted a s bowler pulls his figures. Did Wasim have one bad tour? 99? From what I remember DRS might have hel[ed him that tour- a lot of appeals turned down but he was a threat.

Let's see. Ishant started his career here making a real impression by working over Ponting in some electric spells. I suspect he didn't get rewards that tour- that was old too short Ishant. If he has a big tour here and he is young enough to come back for one more he could get a look in.

Bumrah I'm not sure. Perhaps he will surprise us all and be able to sustain pace or find a way to make that action work with swing & cut at medium pace as he ages but...

 

[Romali_rotti]

Sakib Al Hasan has a much better record in Australia than Kapil...

 

[Romali_rotti]

Kapil’s record in Australia and WI is why I rate him higher than Botham as a bowler. Also poor Kapil did not have Bob Willis to help him.

Dev was the top dawg,, He has outbowled Imran in both WI & Aus.. While Imran was the cornered tiger, Dev was the roaring Lion, Haryana Hurricane...

 

[JaanZeb]

[MENTION=65183]freelance_cricketer[/MENTION]

Funny no one is rechecking your figures.

You're wrong on Wasim Akram being a 'close second'.

There is a Pakistani player known for inventing 'reverse swing', by name of Sarfraz Nawaz Malik. He has taken 50 wickets @average of 31.4 in Australia

Imran Khan has taken 45 wickets @average of 28.51 in Aus.

Same Kapil Dev has taken 15 wickets @ average of 42 in New Zealand
whereas Imran Khan has taken 17 @average of 26.64

Comparisons are nonsense, can you tell me how many matches India won in those 50 Kapil took?
1 match and 5 drawn
Whereas Imran and Sarfraz won 3 and drawn 4 in Australia vs them

 

[Sher Khan]

Kapil dev was a deeply mediocre bowler. The likes of Hasan Ali can easily break his record.

 

[Buffet]

[MENTION=65183]freelance_cricketer[/MENTION]

Funny no one is rechecking your figures.

You're wrong on Wasim Akram being a 'close second'.

There is a Pakistani player known for inventing 'reverse swing', by name of Sarfraz Nawaz Malik. He has taken 50 wickets @average of 31.4 in Australia

Imran Khan has taken 45 wickets @average of 28.51 in Aus.

Same Kapil Dev has taken 15 wickets @ average of 42 in New Zealand
whereas Imran Khan has taken 17 @average of 26.64

Comparisons are nonsense, can you tell me how many matches India won in those 50 Kapil took?
1 match and 5 drawn
Whereas Imran and Sarfraz won 3 and drawn 4 in Australia vs them

Sarfraz has SR of 77+, Avg of 31+ and grand total of 1 5-fers in Aus. Not sure why you think he is better than other names.

IK/Sarfraz didn't draw any match in Aus. It was Pakistan who drew it. As a bowler , we should be checking what they produced as bowler and not confuse it with team result. If you want to push then it will be batsmen who will have capacity to draw matches and not bowlers.

Why will you look at NZ for judging which player has done the best in Aus?

It's ok to admit that a non-Pakistani bowler has done better than Pakistan bowler in specific venue.

 

[JaanZeb]

It's ok to admit that a non-Pakistani bowler has done better than Pakistan bowler in specific venue.

Can't get into a childish argument that Kapil Dev by a stat was superior to Pakistani bowlers rofl.

One needs to admit that all stats are useless if the team does'nt win. India lost 6 tests in Australia in which Kapil Dev played in.

What Pakistani bowlers have achieved or contributed is well known to the rest of the world incl. Australia.

 

[jeetu]

Min 10 Wickets in Australia
[table=width: 600, class: grid, align: center]
[tr][td]Player [/td][td]Span [/td][td]Mat [/td][td]Runs [/td][td]Wkts [/td][td]Ave [/td][td]Econ [/td][td]SR [/td][td]5W [/td][td]10W [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]UDU Chandana [/td][td]2004-2004 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]270 [/td][td]12 [/td][td]22.5 [/td][td]4.37 [/td][td]30.8 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]1 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Wasim Akram [/td][td]1990-1999 [/td][td]9 [/td][td]866 [/td][td]36 [/td][td]24.05 [/td][td]2.48 [/td][td]58 [/td][td]3 [/td][td]1 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]N Kapil Dev [/td][td]1981-1992 [/td][td]11 [/td][td]1254 [/td][td]51 [/td][td]24.58 [/td][td]2.39 [/td][td]61.5 [/td][td]5 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]RJ Shastri [/td][td]1985-1992 [/td][td]6 [/td][td]500 [/td][td]19 [/td][td]26.31 [/td][td]1.97 [/td][td]79.8 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]B Bedi [/td][td]1968-1978 [/td][td]7 [/td][td]963 [/td][td]35 [/td][td]27.51 [/td][td]2.41 [/td][td]68.3 [/td][td]3 [/td][td]1 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]NS Yadav [/td][td]1981-1986 [/td][td]5 [/td][td]647 [/td][td]23 [/td][td]28.13 [/td][td]2.19 [/td][td]76.9 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]L Amarnath [/td][td]1947-1948 [/td][td]5 [/td][td]366 [/td][td]13 [/td][td]28.15 [/td][td]2.17 [/td][td]77.5 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Imran Khan [/td][td]1976-1990 [/td][td]13 [/td][td]1283 [/td][td]45 [/td][td]28.51 [/td][td]2.53 [/td][td]67.5 [/td][td]3 [/td][td]1 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Iqbal Qasim [/td][td]1976-1981 [/td][td]5 [/td][td]609 [/td][td]21 [/td][td]29 [/td][td]2.58 [/td][td]67.4 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]B Chandrasekhar [/td][td]1967-1978 [/td][td]7 [/td][td]878 [/td][td]29 [/td][td]30.27 [/td][td]2.69 [/td][td]67.4 [/td][td]3 [/td][td]1 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]KD Ghavri [/td][td]1977-1981 [/td][td]6 [/td][td]641 [/td][td]21 [/td][td]30.52 [/td][td]3.16 [/td][td]57.8 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]EAS Prasanna [/td][td]1967-1978 [/td][td]8 [/td][td]965 [/td][td]31 [/td][td]31.12 [/td][td]2.26 [/td][td]82.6 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Sarfraz Nawaz [/td][td]1972-1984 [/td][td]12 [/td][td]1573 [/td][td]50 [/td][td]31.46 [/td][td]2.44 [/td][td]77 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]1 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Mushtaq Ahmed [/td][td]1990-1999 [/td][td]4 [/td][td]739 [/td][td]22 [/td][td]33.59 [/td][td]3.32 [/td][td]60.6 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]HMRKB Herath [/td][td]2012-2013 [/td][td]3 [/td][td]407 [/td][td]12 [/td][td]33.91 [/td][td]3.02 [/td][td]67.3 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Saqlain Mushtaq [/td][td]1995-1999 [/td][td]4 [/td][td]478 [/td][td]14 [/td][td]34.14 [/td][td]2.74 [/td][td]74.5 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]AB Agarkar [/td][td]1999-2004 [/td][td]7 [/td][td]947 [/td][td]27 [/td][td]35.07 [/td][td]3.6 [/td][td]58.4 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Z Khan [/td][td]2003-2012 [/td][td]7 [/td][td]877 [/td][td]25 [/td][td]35.08 [/td][td]3.62 [/td][td]58 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]RF Surti [/td][td]1967-1968 [/td][td]4 [/td][td]528 [/td][td]15 [/td][td]35.2 [/td][td]3.37 [/td][td]62.6 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Mohammad Asif [/td][td]2005-2010 [/td][td]4 [/td][td]458 [/td][td]13 [/td][td]35.23 [/td][td]2.99 [/td][td]70.6 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]M Prabhakar [/td][td]1991-1992 [/td][td]5 [/td][td]680 [/td][td]19 [/td][td]35.78 [/td][td]2.67 [/td][td]80.1 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Wahab Riaz [/td][td]2016-2017 [/td][td]3 [/td][td]400 [/td][td]11 [/td][td]36.36 [/td][td]4 [/td][td]54.5 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Mohammed Shami [/td][td]2014-2018 [/td][td]5 [/td][td]740 [/td][td]20 [/td][td]37 [/td][td]3.95 [/td][td]56.1 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]A Kumble [/td][td]1999-2008 [/td][td]10 [/td][td]1849 [/td][td]49 [/td][td]37.73 [/td][td]3.46 [/td][td]65.3 [/td][td]4 [/td][td]1 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Azeem Hafeez [/td][td]1983-1984 [/td][td]5 [/td][td]733 [/td][td]19 [/td][td]38.57 [/td][td]3.74 [/td][td]61.7 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]RP Singh [/td][td]2007-2008 [/td][td]4 [/td][td]507 [/td][td]13 [/td][td]39 [/td][td]4.3 [/td][td]54.3 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]DR Doshi [/td][td]1981-1981 [/td][td]3 [/td][td]440 [/td][td]11 [/td][td]40 [/td][td]2.41 [/td][td]99.2 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]SL Malinga [/td][td]2004-2007 [/td][td]3 [/td][td]481 [/td][td]12 [/td][td]40.08 [/td][td]4.35 [/td][td]55.2 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Waqar Younis [/td][td]1990-1999 [/td][td]7 [/td][td]567 [/td][td]14 [/td][td]40.5 [/td][td]2.98 [/td][td]81.4 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Danish Kaneria [/td][td]2004-2010 [/td][td]5 [/td][td]974 [/td][td]24 [/td][td]40.58 [/td][td]3.8 [/td][td]64 [/td][td]3 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]IK Pathan [/td][td]2003-2008 [/td][td]4 [/td][td]495 [/td][td]12 [/td][td]41.25 [/td][td]3.61 [/td][td]68.5 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]WPUJC Vaas [/td][td]1995-2007 [/td][td]6 [/td][td]709 [/td][td]17 [/td][td]41.7 [/td][td]2.97 [/td][td]84 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Shoaib Akhtar [/td][td]1999-2005 [/td][td]6 [/td][td]740 [/td][td]17 [/td][td]43.52 [/td][td]4.34 [/td][td]60.1 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]UT Yadav [/td][td]2011-2018 [/td][td]8 [/td][td]1177 [/td][td]27 [/td][td]43.59 [/td][td]4.53 [/td][td]57.6 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]R Ashwin [/td][td]2011-2018 [/td][td]7 [/td][td]1298 [/td][td]27 [/td][td]48.07 [/td][td]3.04 [/td][td]94.7 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Saleem Altaf [/td][td]1972-1977 [/td][td]5 [/td][td]529 [/td][td]11 [/td][td]48.09 [/td][td]3.1 [/td][td]92.8 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Mohammad Amir [/td][td]2009-2017 [/td][td]5 [/td][td]631 [/td][td]13 [/td][td]48.53 [/td][td]3.32 [/td][td]87.6 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]J Srinath [/td][td]1991-2000 [/td][td]8 [/td][td]1014 [/td][td]20 [/td][td]50.7 [/td][td]3.09 [/td][td]98.1 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]I Sharma [/td][td]2008-2018 [/td][td]12 [/td][td]1379 [/td][td]27 [/td][td]51.07 [/td][td]3.35 [/td][td]91.3 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]MH Mankad [/td][td]1947-1948 [/td][td]5 [/td][td]630 [/td][td]12 [/td][td]52.5 [/td][td]2.71 [/td][td]116 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Abdul Qadir [/td][td]1983-1984 [/td][td]5 [/td][td]732 [/td][td]12 [/td][td]61 [/td][td]3.33 [/td][td]109.7 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[/table]

 

[Bhaijaan]

Kapil’s record in Australia and WI is why I rate him higher than Botham as a bowler. Also poor Kapil did not have Bob Willis to help him.

Botham and Kapil both became regular batsmen in the second half of their careers. Kapil in particular was one of the most explosive batsmen in the world.

I am surprised that Kapil outbowled both Botham and Imran in Australia and West Indies.

 

[Junaids]

Botham and Kapil both became regular batsmen in the second half of their careers. Kapil in particular was one of the most explosive batsmen in the world.

I am surprised that Kapil outbowled both Botham and Imran in Australia and West Indies.

I’m not actually sure that he did.

In 1989-90 Imran Khan was a 37 year old batsman who bowled significant spells to keep Wasim Akram and Waqar Younis fresh, especially after Aaqib Javed was dropped.

As for Wasim Akram, he was the most dangerous Asian quick I ever saw in Australia.

The problem this (excellent) thread has is that it looks longitudinally at a bowler’s career without making allowances for different fast bowlers being better or worse late in their careers.

Wasim Akram was tall and so even in 1999-2000 still posed a threat in Australia.

But Waqar’s shorter height made him less effective once he lost his pace. Plus he was only semi-fit in 1995-96 after a recurrence of his stress fractures.

Kapil Dev was what he was. A much less explosive bowler who was comparable to Matthew Hoggard, and therefore had very little decline in his effectiveness even as a veteran.

Kapil Dev was the same bowler at 125K or at his fastest at 135K.

Waqar and Imran were lethal at 150K, but at 135K they were pretty mediocre.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Waqar and Imran were lethal at 150K, but at 135K they were pretty mediocre.

Imran never touched 150K, his quickest timed speed was 137 ks. Now this might be hard for Pakistanis such as yourself, but unless you show proof he clocked 140, let alone 150, he was just a medium fast bowler.

Now if you choose to reply to my post, the wouldve, shouldve, couldve of Imran's alleged speed is not proof, I need solid evidence.


Cheers

 

[Romali_rotti]

But Waqar’s shorter height made him less effective once he lost his pace. Plus he was only semi-fit in 1995-96 after a recurrence of his stress fractures.


.

Oh really ? Waqar didn't seem to be bothered by much injury here, this was after the 1995 WC:


<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/V5KODVPu0CA" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[Junaids]

Imran never touched 150K, his quickest timed speed was 137 ks. Now this might be hard for Pakistanis such as yourself, but unless you show proof he clocked 140, let alone 150, he was just a medium fast bowler.

Now if you choose to reply to my post, the wouldve, shouldve, couldve of Imran's alleged speed is not proof, I need solid evidence.


Cheers

We all know that in 75-76 using the most accurate technology ever used, Andy Roberts reached 157.4 and Michael Holding as a rookie reached 156.1.

The same day Thomson was measured at 160.6.

When Imran took 12-165 to win the Sydney Test 12 months later, the Aussie batsmen said he was bowling in the same speed range. But no measurements were taken.

 

[Romali_rotti]

When Imran took 12-165 to win the Sydney Test 12 months later, the Aussie batsmen said he was bowling in the same speed range. But no measurements were taken.

So no proof, Thanks... Like I said earlier, shouldve, wouldve, couldve dont count..

 

[Bhaijaan]

I’m not actually sure that he did.

In 1989-90 Imran Khan was a 37 year old batsman who bowled significant spells to keep Wasim Akram and Waqar Younis fresh, especially after Aaqib Javed was dropped.

As for Wasim Akram, he was the most dangerous Asian quick I ever saw in Australia.

The problem this (excellent) thread has is that it looks longitudinally at a bowler’s career without making allowances for different fast bowlers being better or worse late in their careers.

Wasim Akram was tall and so even in 1999-2000 still posed a threat in Australia.

But Waqar’s shorter height made him less effective once he lost his pace. Plus he was only semi-fit in 1995-96 after a recurrence of his stress fractures.

Kapil Dev was what he was. A much less explosive bowler who was comparable to Matthew Hoggard, and therefore had very little decline in his effectiveness even as a veteran.

Kapil Dev was the same bowler at 125K or at his fastest at 135K.

Waqar and Imran were lethal at 150K, but at 135K they were pretty mediocre.

Thanks Dear Junad bro.

Your comments are well received.

Like mentioned earlier Imran and Wasim are both great bowlers and they tasted a lot of success in Australia as well.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

We all know that in 75-76 using the most accurate technology ever used, Andy Roberts reached 157.4 and Michael Holding as a rookie reached 156.1.

The same day Thomson was measured at 160.6.

When Imran took 12-165 to win the Sydney Test 12 months later, the Aussie batsmen said he was bowling in the same speed range. But no measurements were taken.

So you have no proof Imran was a fast bowler? Ok

 

[Junaids]

Oh really ? Waqar didn't seem to be bothered by much injury here, this was after the 1995 WC:


<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/V5KODVPu0CA" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Funnily enough, Waqar is almost unknown in Australia. And he’s one of my heroes.

In 89-90 he was a raw rookie.

In 95-96 he was coming back from his second set of stress fractures, and only knocked over the tail at Sydney and was otherwise very under-done.

In 99-00 Wasim Akram just wouldn’t pick him - even though he bowled really well at Hobart until he turned his ankle.

So Aussies never saw Waqar at his best, and even though he lives in Sydney he is much less highly regarded than Wasim Akram here.

The thing is, Imran, Waqar and Shoaib were like three clones. All around the same height and pace, all primarily inswing bowlers.

Imran from the age of 30 became a really good fast-medium bowler because he developed a leg-cutter to leave the batsman.

Waqar was finished by early 1998, at the alleged age of 27, and spent the last four years fiddling around with medium-paced swing.

Shoaib never diversified away from pace, so he ended up with less than half as many Test wickets as either Imran or Waqar.

 

[Romali_rotti]

So Aussies never saw Waqar at his best, and even though he lives in Sydney he is much less highly regarded than Wasim Akram here.

Agreed.

The thing is, Imran, Waqar and Shoaib were like three clones. All around the same height and pace, all primarily inswing bowlers.

Not really, Waqar was the shortest of the three at about 5-9, Imran and Shoib was 6 feet or more. Imran was lean and slim, Waqar was medium built, Shoib had big shoulders, a thick back and was the strongest of the three. Also please, don't compare a medium fast bowler like Imran to the fastest bowler of all time in Shoib for pace. Being biased as a Pakistani has its limits also, if you get the drift..

.

Bold..

 

[warcry]

greatest asian bowler?
there is no such thing as asian.
either compare the bowlers of all teams
or make no comparisons.
then see where this kapil dev bloke lies.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Funnily enough, Waqar is almost unknown in Australia. And he’s one of my heroes.

In 89-90 he was a raw rookie.

In 95-96 he was coming back from his second set of stress fractures, and only knocked over the tail at Sydney and was otherwise very under-done.

In 99-00 Wasim Akram just wouldn’t pick him - even though he bowled really well at Hobart until he turned his ankle.

So Aussies never saw Waqar at his best, and even though he lives in Sydney he is much less highly regarded than Wasim Akram here.

The thing is, Imran, Waqar and Shoaib were like three clones. All around the same height and pace, all primarily inswing bowlers.

Imran from the age of 30 became a really good fast-medium bowler because he developed a leg-cutter to leave the batsman.

Waqar was finished by early 1998, at the alleged age of 27, and spent the last four years fiddling around with medium-paced swing.

Shoaib never diversified away from pace, so he ended up with less than half as many Test wickets as either Imran or Waqar.

All i will say is that at his absolute best Waqar was better than both Wasim and Imran. He was almost like the second coming of Dennis Lillee who is IBHO the greatest ever fast bowler after Harold Larwood.

greatest asian bowler?
there is no such thing as asian.
either compare the bowlers of all teams
or make no comparisons.
then see where this kapil dev bloke lies.

Okay little brother. No getting mad

 

[Justcrazy]

In his peak , Waqar was absolutely lethal , closest to probably Marshall.

 

[Tusker]

We all know that in 75-76 using the most accurate technology ever used, Andy Roberts reached 157.4 and Michael Holding as a rookie reached 156.1.

No we dont. Got a video clip to prove that ? I don't think so since its been 2 yrs since I asked you for this. The only verifiable evidence that we have is the 1978/79 Test in which Roberts top speed did not even get past mid 130K's. Which is what even Abbas can crank upto.

INB4 you start the "It was measured at the batsmans end" tune.

 

[Robert]

Botham and Kapil both became regular batsmen in the second half of their careers. Kapil in particular was one of the most explosive batsmen in the world.

I am surprised that Kapil outbowled both Botham and Imran in Australia and West Indies.

Hmm, IIRC twelve of Botham's fourteen test centuries came by 1982, just five years in.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Hmm, IIRC twelve of Botham's fourteen test centuries came by 1982, just five years in.

But it is his bowling that saw a bigger drop.

 

[cricketindiafan]

Expectedly the thread hasn't gone down well with [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] . See how skillfully he brings in Matt Hoggard into the picture to mock Kapil. And the laughable claims of IK bowling 150kmph and Kapil being a 135 kmph bowler with ZERO proof.

 

[Swashbuckler]

Bumrah has a good shot, has had a wonderful start this series but long long way to go. His spell today was the series' best IMO, from both sides.

 

[cricketindiafan]

On topic, remarkable that Kapil had such a great tour in 1991-92 at the age of 33. 5 tests 25 wickets@26. Gave it his all, bowling nearly 60 overs in each test. Was actually unfit by the end of the series and bowled below par in the Tri series and 1992 WC

 

[Swashbuckler]

Expectedly the thread hasn't gone down well with [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] . See how skillfully he brings in Matt Hoggard into the picture to mock Kapil. And the laughable claims of IK bowling 150kmph and Kapil being a 135 kmph bowler with ZERO proof.

Believe me that is a major upgrade. He first started off comparing Kapil the bowler with Watson, then a year back it was Southee, now Hoggard. At this rate he may elevate Kapil's bowling to Caddick level by the year 2045.

 

[Napa]

Sakib Al Hasan has a much better record in Australia than Kapil...

Only because he is yet to play a test match in Australia.

 

[Napa]

there is no such thing as asian.

Here is a map for your education:

https://www.google.com/search?q=asi...0l3j69i65j0.5221j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

 

[Napa]

The problem this (excellent) thread has is that it looks longitudinally at a bowler’s career without making allowances for different fast bowlers being better or worse late in their careers.

Waqar and Imran were lethal at 150K, but at 135K they were pretty mediocre.

Expectedly the thread hasn't gone down well with [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] . See how skillfully he brings in Matt Hoggard into the picture to mock Kapil. And the laughable claims of IK bowling 150kmph and Kapil being a 135 kmph bowler with ZERO proof.

Junaids is again offering a view of the world at odds with the real world. IK was not "lethal" but actually "pretty mediocre" in his 1978/79 tour of Australia when he managed to get only 7 wickets at an average of 40.71.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...pan;template=results;type=bowling;view=series

 

[Iqbal'sh]

No we dont. Got a video clip to prove that ? I don't think so since its been 2 yrs since I asked you for this. The only verifiable evidence that we have is the 1978/79 Test in which Roberts top speed did not even get past mid 130K's. Which is what even Abbas can crank upto.

INB4 you start the "It was measured at the batsmans end" tune.

Quite a few studies were done from 75 onwards to measure the speed of the fastest pacers of the time, see link below:
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/records/283875.html

 

[Iqbal'sh]

Bold..

Waqar is actually close to 6ft in height, I’m not sure where you got 5’9 from

 

[Napa]

Quite a few studies were done from 75 onwards to measure the speed of the fastest pacers of the time, see link below:
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/records/283875.html

Why did the speeds of most of the players suddenly fall by around 10% from 1976 to 1979. Casts doubt on the accuracy of the studies.

 

[Iqbal'sh]

But it is his bowling that saw a bigger drop.

I think [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION] was correcting your earlier statement regarding batting.
Not sure where you guys get your information from?

 

[Iqbal'sh]

Why did the speeds of most of the players suddenly fall by around 10% from 1976 to 1979. Casts doubt on the accuracy of the studies.

You’ll need to check the exact conditions under which the studies were carried out.
However, what is not in dispute is that Andy Roberts was one of the fastest bowlers at the time. Hence why he was included in the studies and not a 130k trundler as another poster has stated earlier.

 

[Tusker]

Quite a few studies were done from 75 onwards to measure the speed of the fastest pacers of the time, see link below:
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/records/283875.html

There is no video evidence for anything other than the 1979 studies.... Also look at the 1979 speeds ... every one is down in speed from the previous studies. This suggests that there is something wrong with the earlier speed measurements. And the reason why the 1979 measurements are realistic is because in the 1979 study we have slower bowlers like Sarfraz and Hadlee participating and we know by observation that the bowling style of these bowlers belongs in the 120K range.

 

[Robert]

I think [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION] was correcting your earlier statement regarding batting.
Not sure where you guys get your information from?

I think [MENTION=65183]freelance_cricketer[/MENTION] meant that Botham’s bowling fell off (in effectiveness as well as pace) in the second half of his career.

 

[Robert]

Expectedly the thread hasn't gone down well with [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] . See how skillfully he brings in Matt Hoggard into the picture to mock Kapil. And the laughable claims of IK bowling 150kmph and Kapil being a 135 kmph bowler with ZERO proof.

How is that mocking Kapil? Hoggard was a similar bowler in pace and style, averaged about the same, and IIRC had a better s/r than Kapil.

Imran was certainly very quick in the early eighties - probably the quickest in the world after Holding started slowing down and before Marshall emerged - while Kapil was FM.

 

[Swashbuckler]

[MENTION=134300]Tusker[/MENTION] this historic revisionism in cricket is scary, I have no other words to put it. Athletes have got faster and stronger in every single track and field discipline, modern elite swimmers have far better timings, weak GMs outside top 500 are stronger than the chess world champions of 5-6 decades back, tennis is a different sport altogether, how can cricket be a sole exception? People can justifiably say that earlier ATGs too were great and much ahead of their peers but on an absolute basis how can time and human progress travel backwards? Jesse Owens was as great as Bolt considering circumstances and his achievements but in which universe is he a faster man than Bolt? Similar truth applies to every single sport/game.

You have done a great job on PP in decoding myths of the old era. None better service than your expose of the so called 170 kph speedsters of a bygone era. I notice that the usual suspects haven't responded to your factual proof, instead continuing to float imaginary numbers. Forget all that, you have done a great service in throwing light for cricket fans who are flexible and ready to modify their views. Unless people question stuff parroted to them by their elders, how can they ever develop an independent mind?

 

[Robert]

Quite a few studies were done from 75 onwards to measure the speed of the fastest pacers of the time, see link below:
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/records/283875.html

Fascinating that Roberts was clocked at nearly 97 mph, quicker than Holding.

As for the veracity of these measurement, consider that we had landed on the Moon six years before that, and even in 1960 had missiles that could track and knock down a plane flying at 90,000 feet of altitude.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Imran never touched 150K, his quickest timed speed was 137 ks. Now this might be hard for Pakistanis such as yourself, but unless you show proof he clocked 140, let alone 150, he was just a medium fast bowler.

Now if you choose to reply to my post, the wouldve, shouldve, couldve of Imran's alleged speed is not proof, I need solid evidence.


Cheers

Do you have a reference to this? Which speed guns were used in the mid 80's?

As for the OP, please check your data before posting. Akram has a better average than Dev and he was playing against a much better Aus team.

 

[Iqbal'sh]

There is no video evidence for anything other than the 1979 studies.... Also look at the 1979 speeds ... every one is down in speed from the previous studies. This suggests that there is something wrong with the earlier speed measurements. And the reason why the 1979 measurements are realistic is because in the 1979 study we have slower bowlers like Sarfraz and Hadlee participating and we know by observation that the bowling style of these bowlers belongs in the 120K range.

See my above post.
Larwood by general consensus is considered one of the fastest bowlers of all time. However there were no measuring equipment back then. As viewers all we get are grainy b&w images from one end of the pitch.
Point being he is ranked up there due to the testimony of people who have either played or been around the sport as qualified observers.
Similarly, the same rules apply for Imran or Roberts. They are classed as genuine fast bowlers by their peers and even as viewers we got to see this thanks to the improvements in tv coverage during their playing careers.

 

[Robert]

The difference in measured speed from 1975 to 1979 deserves some context.

First of all, Thommo suffered that horrible shoulder injury between these years and all observers remarked that he was never as quick again, though still quick.

Lillee’s drop in pace from his mid-seventies heyday seems to be indicated here. Marshall said that around 1980 Lillee was no longer a fast bowler.

What would be interesting to know about is the type of wickets bowled on. A slow deck in 1979 would rob everyone of comparable pace, if the 1975 deck was hard.

 

[Robert]

See my above post.
Larwood by general consensus is considered one of the fastest bowlers of all time. However there were no measuring equipment back then. As viewers all we get are grainy b&w images from one end of the pitch.
Point being he is ranked up there due to the testimony of people who have either played or been around the sport as qualified observers.

Australian sports scientists did a study. They reckoned that Larwood was above 140 kph, which I believe too. You can get an indication from where the keeper and slips are standing to him.

 

[Tusker]

See my above post.
Larwood by general consensus is considered one of the fastest bowlers of all time. However there were no measuring equipment back then. As viewers all we get are grainy b&w images from one end of the pitch.
Point being he is ranked up there due to the testimony of people who have either played or been around the sport as qualified observers.
Similarly, the same rules apply for Imran or Roberts. They are classed as genuine fast bowlers by their peers and even as viewers we got to see this thanks to the improvements in tv coverage during their playing careers.

Human eye cannot estimate speed. Period. Science tells us that. You can try as hard as you can till you go green in the face but you aint going to convince anyone. This is one of those things that you will be better off coming to terms with rather than fight against.

 

[Tusker]

The difference in measured speed from 1975 to 1979 deserves some context.

First of all, Thommo suffered that horrible shoulder injury between these years and all observers remarked that he was never as quick again, though still quick.

Lillee’s drop in pace from his mid-seventies heyday seems to be indicated here. Marshall said that around 1980 Lillee was no longer a fast bowler.
.

Whats the excuse for the others whose pace also dropped ? Perhaps they were expressing solidarity with their peers ?

What would be interesting to know about is the type of wickets bowled on. A slow deck in 1979 would rob everyone of comparable pace, if the 1975 deck was hard.

The speed was measured out of the hand. The pitch had nothing to do with the speed.

 

[Tusker]

[MENTION=134300]Tusker[/MENTION] this historic revisionism in cricket is scary, I have no other words to put it. Athletes have got faster and stronger in every single track and field discipline, modern elite swimmers have far better timings, weak GMs outside top 500 are stronger than the chess world champions of 5-6 decades back, tennis is a different sport altogether, how can cricket be a sole exception? People can justifiably say that earlier ATGs too were great and much ahead of their peers but on an absolute basis how can time and human progress travel backwards? Jesse Owens was as great as Bolt considering circumstances and his achievements but in which universe is he a faster man than Bolt? Similar truth applies to every single sport/game.

You have done a great job on PP in decoding myths of the old era. None better service than your expose of the so called 170 kph speedsters of a bygone era. I notice that the usual suspects haven't responded to your factual proof, instead continuing to float imaginary numbers. Forget all that, you have done a great service in throwing light for cricket fans who are flexible and ready to modify their views. Unless people question stuff parroted to them by their elders, how can they ever develop an independent mind?

Thanks for the kind words but the old ERA cricket fans who doggedly and desperately cling on to their views despite overwhelming evidence must be of great value for those in the business of clinical human psychology study.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Do you have a reference to this? Which speed guns were used in the mid 80's?

As for the OP, please check your data before posting. Akram has a better average than Dev and he was playing against a much better Aus team.

Imran's officially timed speed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGcZRxE3kQA, watch from 7:27 onwards. His quickest speed is actually 139, not 137 that was my mistake.

Also

Yes you are correct Wasim did face a better Australian side once and he left with a bowling average of 55 for the series..However let's not split hairs here, Wasim has a .5 bowling avg better than Dev ? But Dev was way more consistent and easily the best Asian fast bowler from the sub continent in Australia.

 

[Slog]

Imran's officially timed speed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGcZRxE3kQA, watch from 7:27 onwards. His quickest speed is actually 139, not 137 that was my mistake.

Also

Yes you are correct Wasim did face a better Australian side once and he left with a bowling average of 55 for the series..However let's not split hairs here, Wasim has a .5 bowling avg better than Dev ? But Dev was way more consistent and easily the best Asian fast bowler from the sub continent in Australia.

Those speeds are measured at the point where it reaches the batsmen and not the point of delivery as it is today so wrong measure

Also. Imran Khan was a miles better bowler, batsman and all rounder than Kapil Dev. Of that there is no debate

 

[Romali_rotti]

Those speeds are measured at the point where it reaches the batsmen and not the point of delivery as it is today so wrong measure

Talk about insecurity, that is the only timed speed of Imran's bowling, sorry he was not an express bowler...



Also. Imran Khan was a miles better bowler, batsman and all rounder than Kapil Dev. Of that there is no debate


Again don't get insecure, no one is saying Dev was better than Imran, of course Imran is the better overall player... However as a batsmen Imran was an honest trier nothing more, Imran gave it; his all, to get the batting stats he ended up with, while Dev just did not care and still ended up close to Imran's batting average. Dev was wayyyyyy more talented even though an underachiever. Dev has smacked around the great WI bowlers in their own backyard while Imran could not even get a 50 there, hope you get the drift about how much more talented he was than Imran with the bat...

bold...

 

[Tusker]

Those speeds are measured at the point where it reaches the batsmen and not the point of delivery as it is today so wrong measure

Nope they are not. They are actually measured at point of release. Otherwise Thommo's speeds of 147.9KPH if measured at batsmans end would translate to release speeds of well above 160Ks.

Moreover if it was measured at the batsmans end everybody would bowl full toss to take the slowdown due to the pitch out of the equation. It just is not true and is one of the worst urban myths out there.

The evidence for it being measure out of hand is right there in the video of that 1979 fast bowling competition. I have the longer footage let me know if you don't believe me and I will upload it so you can see for yourselves.

Also people have emailed to Dr. Frank Pyke - the professor who did those measurements to confirm the same.

 

[Iqbal'sh]

Bold..

Waqar was actually just slightly under 6ft tall not the 5’9 you think he is.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Magical stats.

Look at the 5fers he took.

 

[Iqbal'sh]

Human eye cannot estimate speed. Period. Science tells us that. You can try as hard as you can till you go green in the face but you aint going to convince anyone. This is one of those things that you will be better off coming to terms with rather than fight against.

I’m not sure why you think I am so desperate to be proved right. For me it doesn’t even register in the minutia of daily life.
Back to your post: The human eyes I wrote about are ex-cricketers, broadcast professionals, journalists etc who have given opinion and testimony since way back.
If they regard IK, Roberts etc as genuinely fast bowlers then I’m happy to accept their opinion. After all many of them faced these guys from 22 yards and ranked them against others who they also faced.
For me there is no greater evidence than that.

 

[Iqbal'sh]

Imran's officially timed speed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGcZRxE3kQA, watch from 7:27 onwards. His quickest speed is actually 139, not 137 that was my mistake.

[MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] asked about the mid 80’s not 1979. Anyone that followed IK knows he transformed himself from a genuine trundler at the start of his career 1975-77 (approx) to a genuine quick early to mid 80’s
Even in the 79 speed test, where he was still getting faster, he is ranked third amongst the quickest guys of his time, and interestingly maintained an average speed of 138.5 kph.
It doesn’t take a huge leap of faith to conclude that at his peak IK was bowling close to 150kph

 

[Tusker]

I’m not sure why you think I am so desperate to be proved right. For me it doesn’t even register in the minutia of daily life.

not sure what you mean here .... are you saying you know you are right and dont care what others think or that it doesnt matter if what you think is right or wrong but you are comfortable with your opinion regardless of whether it can stand scrutiny ?

Back to your post: The human eyes I wrote about are ex-cricketers, broadcast professionals, journalists etc who have given opinion and testimony since way back.
If they regard IK, Roberts etc as genuinely fast bowlers then I’m happy to accept their opinion. After all many of them faced these guys from 22 yards and ranked them against others who they also faced.
For me there is no greater evidence than that.

These ex-cricketers don't have any bionic eyes that are capable of speed measurement. So therefore for some of us facts bound people this "standard" wont cut it and the reasons are right infront of your eyes in the form of scientific measurement done by a reputed institute using technology capable of speed measurement that can actually hold up in a court of law if it came to that. You can either correct your understanding of what these people meant when they said "x,y and z were fast" or you can continue to keep believing in what these ex-cricketers said which wont hold up in a court of law.

 

[leg-side-flick]

If one takes away the effect of reverse swing, then it's very little that separates Imran n Kapil.

So Australia as a venue gives good insights into that

 

[Iqbal'sh]

Nope they are not. They are actually measured at point of release. Otherwise Thommo's speeds of 147.9KPH if measured at batsmans end would translate to release speeds of well above 160Ks.

As the saying goes, straight from the horses mouth:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Nol94jVqCXk
Enjoy!!
[MENTION=143530]Swashbuckler[/MENTION] so much for the historic revisionism.

 

[Tusker]

As the saying goes, straight from the horses mouth:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Nol94jVqCXk
Enjoy!!
[MENTION=143530]Swashbuckler[/MENTION] so much for the historic revisionism.

Except he (Thommo) isn't the horse here. The measurements were all done by Dr. Frank Pyke and he himself has clarified that the measurements were done at the bowlers end and I have seen this clip before nothing new but classic and blatant revisionism.

The evidence is there in the full video of the 1979 contest which I have , let me know if you want to see that if you dont believe me.

Besides , why was Thommo not bowling full tosses if speed was measured at the batsmans end ?

 

[Iqbal'sh]

Except he (Thommo) isn't the horse here. The measurements were all done by Dr. Frank Pyke and he himself has clarified that the measurements were done at the bowlers end and I have seen this clip before nothing new but classic and blatant revisionism.

Except he (Frank Pyke) told Thommo that it was at the other end and by then there was a reduction in speed of around 8-15% .

I’d like to see evidence of Frank Pyke confirming the methodology adopted.

What is clear from watching cricket of the 70’s & 80’s is that the pitches around the world were much livelier.

 

[Tusker]

Except he (Frank Pyke) told Thommo that it was at the other end�� and by then there was a reduction in speed of around 8-15% .

So why wasnt Thommo and everyone else bowling full tosses ? If you notice the video it has the mesh tyoe of contraption parallel to the pitch and it is only at the bowlers end.

I’d like to see evidence of Frank Pyke confirming the methodology adopted.

I will upload the video and post a link ... but essentially it is this:

after Wayne Daniel bowls a full toss the guy who is the host says: "lovely style a full toss ... still it is the speed that it leaves the hand that counts so lets just have a look and find out just how fast it did leave Wayne Daniels hand ... 123.6 "

What is clear from watching cricket of the 70’s & 80’s is that the pitches around the world were much livelier.

Another revisionism. There is plenty of Ashes 1974 and other footage on youtube and I dont see any difference.

 

[Iqbal'sh]

So why wasnt Thommo and everyone else bowling full tosses ? If you notice the video it has the mesh tyoe of contraption parallel to the pitch and it is only at the bowlers end.




I will upload the video and post a link ... but essentially it is this:

after Wayne Daniel bowls a full toss the guy who is the host says: "lovely style a full toss ... still it is the speed that it leaves the hand that counts so lets just have a look and find out just how fast it did leave Wayne Daniels hand ... 123.6 "




Another revisionism. There is plenty of Ashes 1974 and other footage on youtube and I dont see any difference.

You’ve gone from Frank Pyke confirming it was measured at the release point, for which you have clarification, to now saying the host of the show said x,y,z ...
Please present the methodology which was used and which Frank Pyke clarified

 

[Iqbal'sh]

Another revisionism. There is plenty of Ashes 1974 and other footage on youtube and I dont see any difference.

It’s not the same as watching it live

 

[Tusker]

It’s not the same as watching it live

you mean at the ground ?

 

[Junaids]

[MENTION=134300]Tusker[/MENTION]
As you well know, we already have a thread about the 1970’s pace records, and we know that the inaccurate outlier is the 1979 test you now trumpet.

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...h-150s-(158-159-160kph)-on-a-consistent-basis

The 1975-76 University of Western Australia recordings in-match at the WACA used the most accurate - and expensive - cameras ever used to measure projectile speed, View-Sonics cameras filming 500 frames per second, compared with 25 frames per second for current HD filming.

We consequently know as an undisputed fact that:

Jeff Thomson bowled at 160.45K in that Test.

Andy Roberts bowled at 159.49K in that Test.

The rookie Michael Holding bowled at 150.67K in that Test.

Dennis Lillee bowled at 148.54K in that Test, having slowed down after breaking his back.

These speeds are scientific facts measured using superior equipment to the cheaper but less precise devices used today.

A year later Imran Khan took 12-160 against Australia to win the Sydney Test, and the Aussies were clear that he was faster than Holding and similar to Roberts in speed.

 

[Junaids]

I would add that the 1975-76 and 1976 speed tests had remarkably consistent results:

Exhibit A: Thomson 160.45 in one, 160.6 in the other.

Exhibit B: Roberts 159.4 in one, 157.4 in the other.

Exhibit C: post spinal injury Lillee 148.54 in one, 154.8 in the other.

Exhibit D: Holding 150.67 in one, 153.2 in the other.

Frank Pike’s discredited 1979 study failed to measure delivery point or height. The “winner”, Thomson, was drunk and halfway through a one year ban. His speed of 147.9 was the lowest by him ever measured.

 

[Tusker]

Frank Pike’s discredited 1979 study failed to measure delivery point or height. The “winner”, Thomson, was drunk and halfway through a one year ban. His speed of 147.9 was the lowest by him ever measured.

discredited by who and on what scientific basis ?

 

[Iqbal'sh]

Frank Pike’s discredited 1979 study failed to measure delivery point or height. The “winner”, Thomson, was drunk and halfway through a one year ban. His speed of 147.9 was the lowest by him ever measured.

Exactly a number of no-balls including by Lillee and Thomson were allowed to pass without question

 

[Tusker]

Exactly a number of no-balls including by Lillee and Thomson were allowed to pass without question

Do you realize that it will only benefit them?

but Try this link: https://ufile.io/8rd39