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Will Imran Khan change his mind after Australia (6 FC system) lost to India (38 teams FC system)

Lol India's population is 1.5 billion. Australia's is not even the population of KHI. IK comes from the school of thought that Australia might lose a series or two here or there but you cannot keep them down for long because of the quality of their domestic cricket structure.
 
Savak said:
Lol India's population is 1.5 billion. Australia's is not even the population of KHI. IK comes from the school of thought that Australia might lose a series or two here or there but you cannot keep them down for long because of the quality of their domestic cricket structure.
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Pakistan has 6th largest population means atleast 10 teams then
 
8-10 number of teams is the optimum level. Imran and PCB need to stop being so stubborn.
 
Well isn't ur new system more like India’s with regional cricket?
 
BigShak said:
8-10 number of teams is the optimum level. Imran and PCB need to stop being so stubborn.
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It is actually 12 teams, each team has a second eleven as well. Domestic Cricketers need to stop feeling insulted on playing in the Second Eleven teams. The number of teams will only increase when the PCB successfully gets the city associations and clubs going.
 
Anyone watching the current domestic season will realise six teams is more than enough.

The departure of the international players has really exposed the lack of talent depth in Pakistan. The sixth team, Balochistan, are struggling to compete so I shudder to imagine if that talent pool was spread out even more.
 
If AUS somehow beat IND in IND on the return series, I am just going to petition our premier to call Sohail Abbas out of retirement again and re-invest in Hockey, Squash and similar.

God knows we need our Janshers, Jahangirs, Shehbazs, Sardars, Samiullahs et cetera.

No better time to move away from the last vestiges of our colonial heritage, especially in the prevalent sentiment with regards to English language #Cannoli
 
It's not like even these six teams are brimming with talent. The objective of six teams is to keep the competition high. It's fine. Not everything needs to be compared to India
 
Reductive take. Losing to India is by no ways a denunciation of their domestic system which has for decades churned out world-class talents, and continues to do so. Australian FC system is also competitive and suits their population demographics. Whereas, India's system suits them and their population of 1.2 billion, which naturally means a massive talent pool that could never be accommodated with 6 teams.

For Pakistan this system perfect because it is the only way to have some competitive cricket around here. Contrary to popular belief, Pakistan is not loaded with talent, as is evident when you watch domestic cricket. Lots of mediocre players still. And then you have the Second XI tier aswell which allows them to accommodate more players.

The results of this system will show in the long-term. In Pakistan the domestic format has been changed so many times that it has degraded the quality of FC cricket. We need to give this system a chance, give it time to flourish.
 
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As the system develops and more talent starts to come through then a case could be made for both KP and Sindh to have an extra team each. As it stands the talent isn't there to justify more teams in the top tier. I would like to see more matches, for me 10 FC isnt enough, something in the range of 14 to 16 a season would give players more experience against the better players.
 
Savak said:
Lol India's population is 1.5 billion. Australia's is not even the population of KHI. IK comes from the school of thought that Australia might lose a series or two here or there but you cannot keep them down for long because of the quality of their domestic cricket structure.
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You're a bit off there mate. Australia's population is around 25 million. Karachi would be around 16 million.

But the point still stands.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
You're a bit off there mate. Australia's population is around 25 million. Karachi would be around 16 million.

But the point still stands.
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Karachi's population is far more than 16 million. UN estimates put it at over 25 million.

Unfortunately the census is a provincial subject and the provincial govt does whatever it can to ensure urban Sindh gets as few constituents as possible otherwise the PPP govt will be out of power forever.
 
JaDed said:
Well isn't ur new system more like India’s with regional cricket?
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Exactly. India has a team for every state and pakistan has or every region. The reason India has large number of teams is because we are a large country. Not sure how it differs from Pakistan.

Yes but India apart from Ranji trophy also has the dileep trophy which is between 5 zones North, South, West, East and Central where the best players from south states are chosen to represent the South zone team. Similarly the other teams too.

Also at the end of the season usually there is a match between the winner of the Ranji trophy and a Rest of India team.

Apart from the zonal matches the ranji structure and current pakistan structure are same.
 
6 first elevens and 6 second elevens are more than perfect. Improve the pays of the Second eleven teams, find a separate domestic window for it and ensure that the first eleven tournament and second eleven tournament is broadcast separately for the Quaid-e-Azam trophy, T-20 cups and ODI cups. Now that the PCB is expecting to earn a lot of money, they should be able to arrange funding for this.

But this whole argument of there being insufficient teams in Pakistan is a myth. Right now there are 12 teams. Once the city associations are set up, you will have the following teams from each province

Sindh (Karachi, Hyderabad, Sukkur, Larkana)

Punjab (Lahore, Faisalabad, Rawalpindi, Islamabad, Sialkot, Gujranwala)

Balochistan (Quetta, Gwadar)

KPK (Peshawar, Abbotatad, Swat, Mardan e.t.c)

Kashmir (Muzzafarabad)

These are 17 city teams right there.

Then you have the various clubs and school teams.

This whole talk of there being insufficient teams in Pakistan is a myth. This system will ensure that you need to be very special and the best in order to break into the major domestic regional sides.
 
A.A.Z said:
Karachi's population is far more than 16 million. UN estimates put it at over 25 million.

Unfortunately the census is a provincial subject and the provincial govt does whatever it can to ensure urban Sindh gets as few constituents as possible otherwise the PPP govt will be out of power forever.
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LOL I had no idea about this. Genuinely quite surprised.
 
JaDed said:
Well isn't ur new system more like India’s with regional cricket?
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Exactly. India has a team for every state and pakistan has or every region. The reason India has large number of teams is because we are a large country. Not sure how it differs from Pakistan.

Yes but India apart from Ranji trophy also has the dileep trophy which is between 5 zones North, South, West, East and Central where the best players from south states are chosen to represent the South zone team. Similarly the other teams too.

Also at the end of the season usually there is a match between the winner of the Ranji trophy and a Rest of India team.

Apart from the zonal matches the ranji structure and current pakistan structure are same.
 
Savak said:
Lol India's population is 1.5 billion. Australia's is not even the population of KHI. IK comes from the school of thought that Australia might lose a series or two here or there but you cannot keep them down for long because of the quality of their domestic cricket structure.
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So how many FC teams should New Zealand have with their population of 5 million?

This 6 team system is a dumb idea for a subcontinent country. It has been applied without thought and feasibility report.

This drama will end once this government leaves and these UK imports go back.

Blindly imposing the Australian system in Pakistan will not produce results. Australian cricket is not strong because they have only 6 teams.

This is a wrong, unintelligent conclusion that was established without considering the other variables and factors that have contributed to Australia’s success.

There is no strong link between number of FC teams and competitiveness and quality of players coming through.

If it was such a simple formula, India would become twice the team if they reduce the number of teams from 38 to 19.

Imagine how good an Indian player will need to be to play FC cricket in a country of 1.5 billion with only 19 teams.

Now imagine if India reduces the number of FC team to 6, which is the same as Australia, New Zealand and now Pakistan.

Imagine how good an Indian player coming through the system will have to be to get picked from 1.5 billion for a 6 team competition.

Every single player coming through would be ATG material and India will never lose a game of cricket again.

Pakistan thinks it has cracked the code with this 6 team formula and with this simplistic idea that reducing the teams would increase the standard and high quality players will start flowing through the system.

As always, we are in for a brutal reality-check.
 
Full disclaimer: I believe we should have 8 teams . . but . . .

A few points here . . we need to stop obsessing over immaterial and frankly inconsequential nuances such as 6 teams or 8 teams.

To the argument above about India having 38 teams to Australia's 6 . . We can pick apart that argument simply by saying that India's population is 6 times that of Pakistan - if we divide their 38 by 6, that gives us our 6 regional teams . .

Now, are we justified to have 6 teams? or 8 teams? or 10 teams? See, that's not the point . .

We need to debate the logic behind why we have a new domestic structure . . 6 teams or 8 teams or 10 teams is a consequence of that logic . .

The logic is, the fewer teams we have playing one level below international cricket, the harder folks will have to work to get into those 6 teams because spots are limited and hence creating greater competition! It also means there is higher accountability for pedestrians because spaces are limited and ideally, you've got people knocking on the door . .

So with 6 first class teams and then 6 second XIs, we've got potentially 180 to 200 top cricketers in the system at any given time . . that's more than enough . . How do we ensure talent doesn't get lost and our best talent ends up in this 180, 200?

We also need to understand that international team is a culmination of the sum of talent coming through our first class cricket . .

First class teams are a culmination of talent coming through 2nd XIs . . 2nd XIs are a culmination of talent coming through club cricket . . district cricket . . zone cricket . . that's a culmination of talent coming through school cricket . . you get the gist . .

Now, lets look at it holistically - Garbage in - garbage out . .

Fixing the domestic structure isn't about 6 teams of 8 teams . . its about fixing the entire funnel/pipeline and nurseries that find, nurture, and groom talent . .

I can tell you through the experience of my brother in Karachi, that our club cricket is broken to the core . . . its corrupt beyond imagination (much like the country itself) . . its controlled by mafias . . School cricket is non-existent . .

So, when we say "fixing domestic structure", we have to think about the whole system . . a new first class system is only a first step in this whole process . . and I am glad that its there and we're putting in some money now and first class players are getting more investment and are staying in five star hotels, etc. . but much work needs to be done . .

Lastly, anyone who can claim at this point that the new system is a success or a failure knows nothing about how this whole thing works . . for us to be able to deduce anything about this new system, we have to let it run for at least 5 6 years . . and bottomline is, you gotta fix the entire system otherwise you can bring any system in the world, it's going to be useless! because like I said . . garbage in, garbage out!
 
After watching so many domestic matches I come to understand that even 6 teams looks a lot considering we have such a less number of talent. Every team consists of 2-3 parchis means more than a squad of players are not good means 5 teams. I think Mamoon is contradicting himself with NZ. First he is saying we have very less number of talent but then want more teams which can be full of many garbage players.
 
BigShak said:
8-10 number of teams is the optimum level. Imran and PCB need to stop being so stubborn.
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I think 6 teams is good for another year. Then we should ad 2 more and have 8 for 3 years and finally go for 10 team and stop it there.
 
Shafi said:
I think Mamoon is contradicting himself with NZ. First he is saying we have very less number of talent but then want more teams which can be full of many garbage players.
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The reason why I bring New Zealand up is because it negates the common argument that I hear that the 6 FC teams is proportional to Pakistan’s population.

They say that India has 38 because they have 1.5 billion people, Pakistan has 6 because they have 200m, so the proportion is similar.

However, when you ask them how many teams New Zealand, a country with only 5m people, should have, they don’t have an answer.

The bottom-line is that the number of FC teams is only partially dictated by your population, and Pakistan’s problems are far, far bigger than what a FC system of 6 teams can potentially solve.

Pakistan is the most ignorant and intellectually bankrupt cricket nation in the world, and the number of FC teams is not going to make an iota of difference.
 
nothing wrong with the 6 team approach, the issue is that they have made no progress on the feeder system so beyond transient second xi performances there is little transparency to the make up of the squads.

even with 6 teams hasan ali was the only international quality pacer in the comp, sharjeel was the only opener who performed, and without rizwan and sarfraz nearly all teams were fielding wicket keepers who were pretty hit and miss with the bat. pak has very little young technically proficient cricket talent coming through atm, its not like youngster are banging the doors of these teams. this is the success of this model, there is no one fluking world beating stats like was the norm in the 10+ team model.

aus has six FC sides but the layer below that each team is fed by numerous non first class grade sides, like 20 or so in nsw i think. thats the level where pakistan is failing. need the sub first class system without which the top level doesnt make sense.
 
Markhor said:
Anyone watching the current domestic season will realise six teams is more than enough.

The departure of the international players has really exposed the lack of talent depth in Pakistan. The sixth team, Balochistan, are struggling to compete so I shudder to imagine if that talent pool was spread out even more.
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The main issue is the screening of the talent. We have a poor system for screening as well, the sample size is too small for a country like Pakistan. Which means that we are not even sure that some hidden gem is out there which has not been exposed. Are we certain that the best of the best are playing in these 6 teams? What about the nepotism, source, connections - which could be a possible reason some names are playing in the teams but keeping other names out.
 
Hafeez raised a very good point in the same press conference that he talked about Pakistan being way inferior to India. He said the Departmental system ensured that the players have a career because they were able to financially sustain themselves after getting jobs as cricketers. He said we brought this issue to the PM, because the players are not feeling the same sense of security they felt playing from the departments. He didn't say he agreed with his decision but he said it was his job to bring those issues to the PM.
 
Even with 6 teams , teams do not have good replacements if top players are injured or busy somewhere.

6 teams is good enough for now.
 
waleed88 said:
Hafeez raised a very good point in the same press conference that he talked about Pakistan being way inferior to India. He said the Departmental system ensured that the players have a career because they were able to financially sustain themselves after getting jobs as cricketers. He said we brought this issue to the PM, because the players are not feeling the same sense of security they felt playing from the departments. He didn't say he agreed with his decision but he said it was his job to bring those issues to the PM.
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The PM fired back saying the players progress and performances stagnated because of the security and complacency of a guaranteed departmental salary. And the PM is right, department cricket has been in Pakistan Cricket for the last 30-40 years, what has it done really? Given that the PCB's coffers are going to be boosted, we don't really need departments fielding their teams but instead agreeing to sponsor a regional, city association.
 
Mamoon said:
The reason why I bring New Zealand up is because it negates the common argument that I hear that the 6 FC teams is proportional to Pakistan’s population.

They say that India has 38 because they have 1.5 billion people, Pakistan has 6 because they have 200m, so the proportion is similar.

However, when you ask them how many teams New Zealand, a country with only 5m people, should have, they don’t have an answer.

The bottom-line is that the number of FC teams is only partially dictated by your population, and Pakistan’s problems are far, far bigger than what a FC system of 6 teams can potentially solve.

Pakistan is the most ignorant and intellectually bankrupt cricket nation in the world, and the number of FC teams is not going to make an iota of difference.
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NZ has only 7 teams with so many talents. If we compare with them we shouldn’t have more than 3-4 teams. India has 38 teams because they are over loaded with talent plus players selected based on merit. Under current circumstances 6 teams (12 if you include 2nd XI) enough. No need to increase teams to accommodate more garbage players.
 
The country doesn't have enough quality players to warrant more than 6 teams. In fact, they could even get away with 5.

If you go through the setup team-by-team, you have 2-3 players in each squad that shouldn't be playing at this level.
 
It is not the number of teams that matters, it is the quality of grassroot cricket. How many quality U19 cricketers are we producing? It is not much, so not a surprise to see overall garbage quality of 6 teams. I wonder how bad it must have been with 16 teams.
 
Savak said:
The PM fired back saying the players progress and performances stagnated because of the security and complacency of a guaranteed departmental salary. And the PM is right, department cricket has been in Pakistan Cricket for the last 30-40 years, what has it done really? Given that the PCB's coffers are going to be boosted, we don't really need departments fielding their teams but instead agreeing to sponsor a regional, city association.
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How hard is it to pay minimum wages to a player who is playing first class cricket? If the government can't afford that then privatize it because clearly the government can't even afford decent stipends for players who actually do play well.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
Reductive take. Losing to India is by no ways a denunciation of their domestic system which has for decades churned out world-class talents, and continues to do so. Australian FC system is also competitive and suits their population demographics. Whereas, India's system suits them and their population of 1.2 billion, which naturally means a massive talent pool that could never be accommodated with 6 teams.

For Pakistan this system perfect because it is the only way to have some competitive cricket around here. Contrary to popular belief, Pakistan is not loaded with talent, as is evident when you watch domestic cricket. Lots of mediocre players still. And then you have the Second XI tier aswell which allows them to accommodate more players.

The results of this system will show in the long-term. In Pakistan the domestic format has been changed so many times that it has degraded the quality of FC cricket. We need to give this system a chance, give it time to flourish.
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Matthew Wade is a first choice middle order batter.
 
Shafi said:
NZ has only 7 teams with so many talents. If we compare with them we shouldn’t have more than 3-4 teams. India has 38 teams because they are over loaded with talent plus players selected based on merit. Under current circumstances 6 teams (12 if you include 2nd XI) enough. No need to increase teams to accommodate more garbage players.
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Your understanding of Indian system is poor.
 
1.366 billion / 38 = 36 million people competing per team.

216 mill / 12 = 18 million people competing per team.

In other words, we currently have more teams than India. If we wanted to be comparable, we would have 5 teams (42 mill, which is closer to 36).

Btw this is using the overall population. It is even more skewed if you consider that more people play cricket in India due to the school and university system, than the number of people who play cricket in Pakistan.
 
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Thunderbolt14 said:
1.366 billion / 38 = 36 million people competing per team.

216 mill / 12 = 18 million people competing per team.

In other words, we currently have more teams than India. If we wanted to be comparable, we would have 5 teams (42 mill, which is closer to 36).

Btw this is using the overall population. It is even more skewed if you consider that more people play cricket in India due to the school and university system, than the number of people who play cricket in Pakistan.
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Note that I mean 5 teams overall, not a two tier structure of 3+2 or something.

That’s why a six team two tier structure makes sense, because the topmost structure of six teams alone is comparable in terms of competitiveness to India’s 38 teams. We have a further six teams below this structure as a “safety net” that accommodates more cricketers.

For reference, Uttar Pradesh alone has a population of 235 million (more than all of Pakistan). However, they only have one Ranji team.
 
Other things aside, I personally have rarely followed Pak domestic cricket so keenly on a match by match basis the way I have done this season and I think it might be the case with many others. There are much less free riders and every single performance gets noted and a player with impact comes into limelight because its done against whoever are the best players available in Pakistan.

If we are talking about structures than which country in the world had departments and corporations running their main teams? None other than maybe List A comp of BD if I am not wrong. So lets get that straight that previous structure was one of its kind with no other country using that to produce cricketers and was deteriorating for couple of decades now. The biggest problem with the previous structure was much more politics involved in departments, lack of accountability of performances as none came under PCB directly and transition of young players to the main teams was pretty poor along with lack of opportunities for the bench players to make a claim which happens with 2nd XI in this structure.

As far as the different corporations are only involved as sponsors and dont control the domestic teams without any accountability I think we are good. Even in future I dont mind if the number of team changes or remains constant as far as the main structure doesnt go back to departmental cricket due to the drawbacks I have stated.
 
6 teams is more than enough for now. No superstars are rotting in the 2nd XI - when that time comes we can extend it to 8 or 10 teams.

The fact is that even in a 6 team competition there are some seriously mediocre performers. As long as there's opportunity for obviously better players to come through the 2nd XI without being blocked by domestic bullies then i think we're fine.
 
Pakistan needs at least 36 domestic FC teams... the change by the CEO is honestly bit of a shame... idc about second XI or third XI, we need players at the only XI!
 
Mamoon said:
The reason why I bring New Zealand up is because it negates the common argument that I hear that the 6 FC teams is proportional to Pakistan’s population.

They say that India has 38 because they have 1.5 billion people, Pakistan has 6 because they have 200m, so the proportion is similar.

However, when you ask them how many teams New Zealand, a country with only 5m people, should have, they don’t have an answer.

The bottom-line is that the number of FC teams is only partially dictated by your population, and Pakistan’s problems are far, far bigger than what a FC system of 6 teams can potentially solve.

Pakistan is the most ignorant and intellectually bankrupt cricket nation in the world, and the number of FC teams is not going to make an iota of difference.
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Well India has 38 teams cause they have 28 states and 8 territories, so it's pretty much like Pakistan's current structure with 4 provinces and 3 territories.
 
BRILLIANT Idea About First-Class "QeA" Domestic Cricket of Pakistan!!!!!

Hello, guys I have a BRILLIANT SMART (Einstein) IDEA!!!

2 years ago, as you all know that FC cricket (QeA) cricket changed from 16 teams into 6 teams... The "departmental teams" was removed in the new version!

I am not a big fan of the gutted FC format, BUT since the PCB is very adamant in their choice, I have a BRILLIANT Minor Idea!!!

Our current teams of:
Balochistan
Central Punjab
KPK
Northern
Sindh
South Punjab

Change their name into Sponsorships, for Generation for money!

Company should be able to buy rights to the name of these teams, so for example, the new names can be like, these are just SAMPLES:


SUI Northern Gas Pipelines Limited Camels
Muslim Commercial Bank Limited Pioneers
Nishat Group Corporation Shaheens
Pakistan Telecommunications Company Limited Markhors
Bahria Town Kings
Schön Properties LLC Sultans

It will keep SAME Structure of Regions, but generate so much money for PCB!
 
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Australia lost to a team that is far superior to any in today's cricket. It is more a reflection of how good the Indian team is which in turn is a reflection of how much money has poured in to Indian cricket.
 
It's a double edged sword.

In an ideal world, the teams should be regionally based with maybe a key sponsor. There should be pride associated with representing your region/team and that is how you will get people interest. People who play at the top domestic level should be compensated well and should have financial stability so that people want to become cricketers and don't live poorly if they don't play international cricket.

Finally teams/coaches etc should be picked on merit to safeguard against nepotism. There are no guarantees against nepotism but if someone fails for a season he shouldn't be entitled to 10 more seasons because he is related to someone important.

This is the only way this will work long terms. High competition, monetary compensation and merit.

Anyone judging the result based on one season is an idiot.
 
Have a look at the achievements of the two cricketing nations. It's not even a comparison. Laughable to draw conclusion after one series. India have been the biggest underperformers of world cricket. They are doing some good work at the grassroots now and Pakistan must follow suit by revolutionizing the coaching and the high performance centers.
 
Mamoon said:
So how many FC teams should New Zealand have with their population of 5 million?

This 6 team system is a dumb idea for a subcontinent country. It has been applied without thought and feasibility report.

This drama will end once this government leaves and these UK imports go back.

Blindly imposing the Australian system in Pakistan will not produce results. Australian cricket is not strong because they have only 6 teams.

This is a wrong, unintelligent conclusion that was established without considering the other variables and factors that have contributed to Australia’s success.

There is no strong link between number of FC teams and competitiveness and quality of players coming through.

If it was such a simple formula, India would become twice the team if they reduce the number of teams from 38 to 19.

Imagine how good an Indian player will need to be to play FC cricket in a country of 1.5 billion with only 19 teams.

Now imagine if India reduces the number of FC team to 6, which is the same as Australia, New Zealand and now Pakistan.

Imagine how good an Indian player coming through the system will have to be to get picked from 1.5 billion for a 6 team competition.

Every single player coming through would be ATG material and India will never lose a game of cricket again.

Pakistan thinks it has cracked the code with this 6 team formula and with this simplistic idea that reducing the teams would increase the standard and high quality players will start flowing through the system.

As always, we are in for a brutal reality-check.
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Its not 6 times its 12. Maybe a maths lesson will come in handy.
 
Bewal Express said:
Its not 6 times its 12. Maybe a maths lesson will come in handy.
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6 sides with first and second XIs are not the same as having 12 different sides. Maybe a lesson in logic and common sense will come in handy.
 
Giannis said:
Well India has 38 teams cause they have 28 states and 8 territories, so it's pretty much like Pakistan's current structure with 4 provinces and 3 territories.
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6 teams are way too less for a country with 200m people. Pakistan is dysfunctional country that should have a lot provinces, and its cricket system should not pay a price for the administrative shortcomings.
 
6, 38 or whatever the number of teams, nothing will change because we have this corrupt system in place which is just refusing to go away and nobody wants to fix this, not even Imran Khan. I am not against having 6 teams, but none of these changes will make a difference if we hire people like Misbah, Waqar and Younis.

Inzi and Misbah are the two worst things that have happened to Pakistan cricket in the last 2 decades, so what does PCB do after they retire? they bring them back as selectors and coaches :14:

I or you, can run PCB better than all these clowns and can fix everything, but not sure if we will be allowed to do this in Pakistan. We like our corrupt system and do everything in our power to defend this system.
 
This whole 6 team FC system is pointless if PCB doesn’t invest ton of their revenue into school/grass root level. FC cricket is basically graduation level which at times is too late for players to change/adapt. Indian domestic structure is good cause of lot of quality coaches/clubs available for kids as early as 7-8 years.
 
Shafi said:
NZ has only 7 teams with so many talents. If we compare with them we shouldn’t have more than 3-4 teams. India has 38 teams because they are over loaded with talent plus players selected based on merit. Under current circumstances 6 teams (12 if you include 2nd XI) enough. No need to increase teams to accommodate more garbage players.
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New Zealand have a very small talent pool. There are only 5 million people in the country and rugby is the most popular sport.

The difference is that they have an extremely strong sporting culture with a very high quality of life. Education, diet, security, physical activity - they are in a different league to Pakistan, and these factors have helped them maximize their very small cricket talent pool, not the 6 teams itself.

Again - if Pakistan thinks that having 6 FC sides is the reason behind the success of Australia and New Zealand (in recent times), it is grossly mistaken and will get a reality-check in due time.

Pakistan cricket’s problems run far, far deeper than the number of FC sides that it has.
 
Excellent thread. There is clearly a case to add at least 2 more teams to the system but the selection has to be on merit.
 
Mamoon said:
6 sides with first and second XIs are not the same as having 12 different sides. Maybe a lesson in logic and common sense will come in handy.
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6 teams is discriminatory should have never done this at all.

there should've been at least 36 teams:
1. karachi x 3 (clifton, liaquatabad, golimar)
2. lahore x 2 (defense, model town, prison rd.)
3. faisalabad x 2 (anarkali, iqbal town)
4. rwp
5. Gujran wala
6. Peshawar x 4 (hayatabad, chamkani, Kachori, Matani towns)
7. multan
8. Hyderabad
9. Isloo
10. Quetta
11. bahawalpur
12. sargodha
13. sialkot
14. sukkur
15. larkana
16. sheikh pura
17. rahim yar Khan
18. Dera ghazi Khan
19. Gujrat
20. Sahiwal
21. wah
22, mardan
'23. kasur
24. okra
 
unemployedgm said:
Matthew Wade is a first choice middle order batter.
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I don't think you want to open this can of worms. Because if I start listing the bad to mediocre players that India, South Africa and England have (and continue to) churn out, we could be here all day long.
 
unemployedgm said:
Matthew Wade is a first choice middle order batter.
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Yep the Aussie batting talent pool is quite dry. They are lucky to have Steve Smith in the same way we are lucky to have Barbar - players like these are not products of a good or bad system but are just born to be great. But take away Smith and you're left with just Marnus and Warner. Marnus is a South African import. Warner is an up and down player.

Tim Paine is just a shockingly bad all round cricketer. He and Shan Masood could compete for the worst batting record and the worst catching ability.

Wade is just a mediocre lower order batter. Probably should be playing in Paine's place as keeper with someone else coming in as a specialist batsman.

Australia may have had the most amazing team imaginable in the noughties but clearly it was a lot of pot luck rather than the result of a system. Otherwise the system would have replaced that noughties team with another one just as good. The system hasn't produced another team anywhere near as good.
 
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Usman said:
Yep the Aussie batting talent pool is quite dry. They are lucky to have Steve Smith in the same way we are lucky to have Barbar - players like these are not products of a good or bad system but are just born to be great. But take away Smith and you're left with just Marnus and Warner. Marnus is a South African import. Warner is an up and down player.

Tim Paine is just a shockingly bad all round cricketer. He and Shan Masood could compete for the worst batting record and the worst catching ability.

Wade is just a mediocre lower order batter. Probably should be playing in Paine's place as keeper with someone else coming in as a specialist batsman.

Australia may have had the most amazing team imaginable in the noughties but clearly it was a lot of pot luck rather than the result of a system. Otherwise the system would have replaced that noughties team with another one just as good. The system hasn't produced another team anywhere near as good.
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we got sharjeel, fakhar, butt, hafeez, kamran, khuram... such a big pool and we aint giving them chances in tests.. like come on..
 
Esfahani said:
we got sharjeel, fakhar, butt, hafeez, kamran, khuram... such a big pool and we aint giving them chances in tests.. like come on..
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Weren’t you making fun of the same people for chasing 350 on 9 meter boundaries on another thread 5 minutes ago?
 
He should not. Pakistan does not have enough talent for more than 6 FC teams. We can expand PSL, as for that we can get additional foreign players, but for FC and ODI 6 teams is more than enough.
 
Bewal Express said:
There are 12 teams at 2 levels. Its your maths that needs brushing up.
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Again, it is your lack of common sense and logic that needs brushing up.

And you have said if yourself - 12 teams at 2 levels means 6 teams at 1 level, and that is the point.

6 FC sides are not enough. We need 10-12 sides in addition to second XIs.

Besides, reducing number of FC teams will not increase quality and standard of cricket because there are so many other variables at play.

Quality of cricket is no directly proportional to the number of teams.
 
Mamoon said:
Again, it is your lack of common sense and logic that needs brushing up.

And you have said if yourself - 12 teams at 2 levels means 6 teams at 1 level, and that is the point.

6 FC sides are not enough. We need 10-12 sides in addition to second XIs.

Besides, reducing number of FC teams will not increase quality and standard of cricket because there are so many other variables at play.

Quality of cricket is no directly proportional to the number of teams.
Click to expand...

So if you called all 12 teams level 1 then it will be 12 teams, but if you called some level 1 and some level 2, then its 6 teams. LOL
 
Bewal Express said:
So if you called all 12 teams level 1 then it will be 12 teams, but if you called some level 1 and some level 2, then its 6 teams. LOL
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He’s completely manipulating facts. He begins with an argument about 6 teams not being enough and cricketers falling through the cracks, then completely refuses to accept that those cricketers are accounted for by the second set of 6 teams so effectively there are 12 teams to catch all the players Pakistan has.

I did a numerical breakdown earlier:
1.366 billion / 38 = 36 million people competing per team.

216 mill / 12 = 18 million people competing per team.

In other words, if we wanted to be comparable numerically, we should have 6 teams instead of 12 (as 6 teams corresponds to 36 million people competing per team).

We account for this by creating a two tier system, so that it’s indeed 6 teams at the top tier and a safety net of another 6 teams one level below this.

If we dig deeper though, there’s am even bigger problem. I’ve used the overall populations of India and Pakistan but it’s a well known fact that more kids play hard ball cricket in India than kids play hard ball cricket in Pakistan.

You have schools, academies, clubs, and a proper city level infrastructure, which we don’t have in Pakistan. Further, I would even say kids in India are more crazy about cricket than Pakistani kids.

So even though I’ve used a ratio of 1366 : 216 which is roughly 6.3 : 1, the actual ratio of kids who play cricket seriously is probably even larger in favor of India (something like 9:1). 9/6.3 is roughly 1.5, so adding this modifier to the 36/18 amount I listed above, we can say this is really more like 36/12.

Our 12 team structure actually accommodates thrice as many people, on a relative scale, than India’s 38 team structure does. Let that sink in!

In other words, I can say that only the top 1/3 of players in the 12 teams are comparable to India’s Ranji players. Looking at a specific QeA region, for 22 players present, the top 1/3 means the top 7 players in the first XI. There are a remaining 4 players in the first XI who would not make a single team in Ranji trophy.

This makes intuitive sense.

Surprisingly, this is one thing that Mamoon has himself said with glee and delight in many past posts. Unfortunately, it conflicts with his vendetta against Imran Khan and Wasim Khan, and hence won’t bring up the same point over here.

We just don’t have the quality. Everyone knows this. As long as we have a proper funnel shaped structure, we can help increase the competitiveness at the topmost level, while making sure no talent slips through the cracks as they can be caught by the second level of 6 teams, and further caught by the city cricket associations, then further caught by clubs, school teams, and universities. (Though I find it funny that he’s also adamant that there’s zero talent in Pakistan, so not sure what he’s worried about losing).

Due to covid, we have been unable to get the very last aspect up and running. However, once it is in place, I fully expect the pipeline to begin generating better results.
 
Thunderbolt14 said:
He’s completely manipulating facts. He begins with an argument about 6 teams not being enough and cricketers falling through the cracks, then completely refuses to accept that those cricketers are accounted for by the second set of 6 teams so effectively there are 12 teams to catch all the players Pakistan has.

I did a numerical breakdown earlier:
1.366 billion / 38 = 36 million people competing per team.

216 mill / 12 = 18 million people competing per team.

In other words, if we wanted to be comparable numerically, we should have 6 teams instead of 12 (as 6 teams corresponds to 36 million people competing per team).

We account for this by creating a two tier system, so that it’s indeed 6 teams at the top tier and a safety net of another 6 teams one level below this.

If we dig deeper though, there’s am even bigger problem. I’ve used the overall populations of India and Pakistan but it’s a well known fact that more kids play hard ball cricket in India than kids play hard ball cricket in Pakistan.

You have schools, academies, clubs, and a proper city level infrastructure, which we don’t have in Pakistan. Further, I would even say kids in India are more crazy about cricket than Pakistani kids.

So even though I’ve used a ratio of 1366 : 216 which is roughly 6.3 : 1, the actual ratio of kids who play cricket seriously is probably even larger in favor of India (something like 9:1). 9/6.3 is roughly 1.5, so adding this modifier to the 36/18 amount I listed above, we can say this is really more like 36/12.

Our 12 team structure actually accommodates thrice as many people, on a relative scale, than India’s 38 team structure does. Let that sink in!

In other words, I can say that only the top 1/3 of players in the 12 teams are comparable to India’s Ranji players. Looking at a specific QeA region, for 22 players present, the top 1/3 means the top 7 players in the first XI. There are a remaining 4 players in the first XI who would not make a single team in Ranji trophy.

This makes intuitive sense.

Surprisingly, this is one thing that Mamoon has himself said with glee and delight in many past posts. Unfortunately, it conflicts with his vendetta against Imran Khan and Wasim Khan, and hence won’t bring up the same point over here.

We just don’t have the quality. Everyone knows this. As long as we have a proper funnel shaped structure, we can help increase the competitiveness at the topmost level, while making sure no talent slips through the cracks as they can be caught by the second level of 6 teams, and further caught by the city cricket associations, then further caught by clubs, school teams, and universities. (Though I find it funny that he’s also adamant that there’s zero talent in Pakistan, so not sure what he’s worried about losing).

Due to covid, we have been unable to get the very last aspect up and running. However, once it is in place, I fully expect the pipeline to begin generating better results.
Click to expand...

This point is completely valid. Lot of hard ball cricket from young age if you want to be a serious cricketer.
Also, lots of Tennis ball so get used to bounce as well.

But Pakistan kids have less interest as compared to Indians.. not so sure about that.
 
Bewal Express said:
No they play other 2nd teams. Its a bit like the English system without the promotion and relegation of teams, instead its promotion and relegation of players
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Crucially the second XI teams do not have first class status.

I agree with [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] point that the structure shouldn't be considered as additional teams and total 12 as some posters are suggesting.

Using your example of the England system...if we could include second XI then England doesn't have 18 teams it has 36 and thats just not correct.
 
Bewal Express said:
So if you called all 12 teams level 1 then it will be 12 teams, but if you called some level 1 and some level 2, then its 6 teams. LOL
Click to expand...

Yes because second XIs are the not same as first XIs. It is not a level-playing field.

Not every player who does well in the second XI will get promoted to the first XI. Players will have to be dropped from the first XI for players from the second XI to get promoted.

That is why this logic that the total no of teams is 12 is nonsensical.
 
Mamoon said:
Yes because second XIs are the not same as first XIs. It is not a level-playing field.

Not every player who does well in the second XI will get promoted to the first XI. Players will have to be dropped from the first XI for players from the second XI to get promoted.

That is why this logic that the total no of teams is 12 is nonsensical.
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Most of the players who have done well have been promoted and players such as Kamran Akmal and Ahmed Shazad have lost their places. Its a good system for the moment because the quality isnt there to justify 12 teams in the 1st tier, in the future it may well do. Slowly but surely years of mediocrity has been sidelined and this is just the start. Well done WK and the team
 
We have changed to this model recently, let’s give it a few years before changing it. Consistently changing it again regular times won’t help us.
 
Usman said:
Yep the Aussie batting talent pool is quite dry. They are lucky to have Steve Smith in the same way we are lucky to have Barbar - players like these are not products of a good or bad system but are just born to be great. But take away Smith and you're left with just Marnus and Warner. Marnus is a South African import. Warner is an up and down player.

Tim Paine is just a shockingly bad all round cricketer. He and Shan Masood could compete for the worst batting record and the worst catching ability.

Wade is just a mediocre lower order batter. Probably should be playing in Paine's place as keeper with someone else coming in as a specialist batsman.

Australia may have had the most amazing team imaginable in the noughties but clearly it was a lot of pot luck rather than the result of a system. Otherwise the system would have replaced that noughties team with another one just as good. The system hasn't produced another team anywhere near as good.
Click to expand...

Systems matter. Equally important are the people that function within them. There is still talent in Australia but they face the same issues as we do in Pakistan. The people responsible for Identifying that Talent and Reconciling that Talent in the Construct of a Team is a different animal.
 
Australia's problems underlie with the Big Bash. Cricket Australia in the last few years have promoted the Big Bash way more than their Pura Cup and as a result the quality in the Pura Cup has declined. The Big Bash has helped the Australians even further with their ODI and T-20 team but their test cricket has suffered especially in the batting department, previously the Australian system produced tough test stalwards like Alan Border, Steve Waugh, Mark Waugh, Stuart Law, Justin Langer, Mathew Hayden, Ricky Ponting, Dean Jones, Adam Gilchrist, Mathew Elliot, Chris Rogers e.t.c. Batsmen who were battle hardened, ready to take blows, bat with discipline in tough situations, bat according to the team situation. Now the Australian test team is willing to take T-20 specialists in their batting line i.e. Glen Maxwell, Mathew Wade, Travis Head, Mitchel Marsh, Steve Green e.t.c.

IMO the Australia test line up needs to be filled with test specialists. There is no reason why the Australians cannot do this given how much they pay players for playing test cricket.
 
The FC system is fine as it stands, the recent QEA Trophy was the most competitive in its history. I've no doubt our youngsters will be more battle hardened and learn how to play under pressure with more exposure to this new system.

The problem is with the underlying structure. The standard of 2nd XI cricket is mediocre. Take Abrar Ahmed for example who took wickets for fun in the 2nd XI competition but badly struggled when promoted to Sindh's 1st XI. Meanwhile, city and club cricket hasn't resumed as the Regional Cricket Associations who'll oversee the new setup are still being established. PCB are trying to upskill local coaches but this'll take time to bear fruit. And this is meant to be our feeder system into FC cricket.

IK was right for speaking on this issue for 40+ years but reforming FC is only one important part of a package of measures necessary to uplift our cricket.
 
Esfahani said:
Hello, guys I have a BRILLIANT SMART (Einstein) IDEA!!!

2 years ago, as you all know that FC cricket (QeA) cricket changed from 16 teams into 6 teams... The "departmental teams" was removed in the new version!

I am not a big fan of the gutted FC format, BUT since the PCB is very adamant in their choice, I have a BRILLIANT Minor Idea!!!

Our current teams of:
Balochistan
Central Punjab
KPK
Northern
Sindh
South Punjab

Change their name into Sponsorships, for Generation for money!

Company should be able to buy rights to the name of these teams, so for example, the new names can be like, these are just SAMPLES:


SUI Northern Gas Pipelines Limited Camels
Muslim Commercial Bank Limited Pioneers
Nishat Group Corporation Shaheens
Pakistan Telecommunications Company Limited Markhors
Bahria Town Kings
Schön Properties LLC Sultans

It will keep SAME Structure of Regions, but generate so much money for PCB!
Click to expand...

This one did make me chuckle, well done.
 
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