Will you take the vaccine for Covid-19?

[Robert]

Do you think it’s politics with some of the Pakistani people here or some other reason why they are anti vaxxers?

I know in the US, most anti vaxxers are right wingers, so clearly it’s a political thing. Boggles my mind why Pakistanis would tend to believe the same things American right wingers do.

I don’t think it’s about politics or being Pakistani, I think it’s a selfish expression of personal freedom at the expense of the lives of others.

 

[Stewie]

I don’t think it’s about politics or being Pakistani, I think it’s a selfish expression of personal freedom at the expense of the lives of others.

Do British Pakistanis really feel that strongly about “personal freedoms” as American right wingers?

In my years working with mostly RW Americans, I have learnt that “personal freedoms” is basically a code word for “lower taxes for the elite whites” and zero interference from the government working to find national welfare programs because they tend to benefit the minorities and mainly black people. Nothing more to it. Same with the “right to bear arms”.

I still find it extremely puzzling why non Americans tend to fall for the trap spread through the propaganda of a certain group of elite white Americans.

 

[ahsan17]

Do you think it’s politics with some of the Pakistani people here or some other reason why they are anti vaxxers?

I know in the US, most anti vaxxers are right wingers, so clearly it’s a political thing. Boggles my mind why Pakistanis would tend to believe the same things American right wingers do.

I think you will find anti vaxxer sentiment in all countries largely overlaps with right wing sentiment and right wingers in general. American right wingers are loudest, but they aren't the ones driving anti vaxxer sentiment in most countries, with the exception of perhaps countries like Canada due to cultural similarity and proximity.

 

[Stewie]

I think you will find anti vaxxer sentiment in all countries largely overlaps with right wing sentiment and right wingers in general. American right wingers are loudest, but they aren't the ones driving anti vaxxer sentiment in most countries, with the exception of perhaps countries like Canada due to cultural similarity and proximity.

The question remains: why!??
American RW are anti vaxxers because it’s the left leaning president that’s trying to mandate vaccines. So naturally they are not happy, but it was their favorite president under whom the vaccine was invented. Still they have a reason to oppose it.

What’s the reason other RWingers from across the world to behave the same way?

 

[MenInG]

Liverpool manager Jurgen Klopp says he does not understand why some people refuse the coronavirus vaccine.

There have been concerns about the rate of vaccination in the Premier League with fewer than half of players jabbed at most clubs.

Klopp says "99%" of his players have been vaccinated and he has not had to convince anyone to do so.

The German says he was jabbed to protect not just himself but "all the people around me".

"I don't understand why that is a limitation of freedom," he said. "Because if it is, then not being allowed to drink and drive is a limitation of freedom as well - but we accept that.

"I got the vaccination because I was concerned about myself but even more so for everyone else around me.

"If I get it and suffer - my fault. If I get it and spread it around to everyone else - my fault and not their fault."

Liverpool v Man City - team news and preview
This week it was revealed the Premier League is considering whether to "reward" clubs whose coronavirus vaccination rates are high.

In an email to top-flight clubs last week, the Premier League said: "Only seven clubs' squads are more than 50% fully vaccinated, so we have a way to go."

On Friday, it was announced that Premier League players will be allowed to travel to red-list nations to represent their countries in this month's World Cup qualifiers - but only if they are fully vaccinated.

"I think we can say we have 99% vaccinated," added Klopp. "I didn't have to convince the players, it was more a natural decision from the team.

"I can't remember really talking to a player and convincing him why he should because I'm not a doctor.

"What I would give, like in a lot of other situations, would be my advice - but it was not necessary."

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/58775881

 

[BreadPakoda]

Rand Paul prods Xavier Becerra to apologize to COVID-19 survivors for ‘flat-earthers’ crack

As far as Sen. Rand Paul is concerned, Health and Human Services Secretary Xavier Becerra owes an apology to those who have opted against being vaccinated after recovering from COVID-19.

Mr. Becerra took a swing last week at “flat-earthers” as he pushed for vaccines at a health-policy forum sponsored by the Foundation for Healthy Kentucky, saying that “because some flat-earthers, especially those in places of influence, choose to peddle fiction, we’re losing more of our loved ones.”

Taking umbrage was Mr. Paul, who ripped Mr. Becerra during a Thursday hearing of the Senate Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee, citing an extensive Israeli study that found those in the vaccinated group were more likely to contract COVID-19 than those with naturally acquired immunity.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/oct/1/rand-paul-prods-xavier-becerra-apologize-covid-19-/

 

[Robert]

The question remains: why!??
American RW are anti vaxxers because it’s the left leaning president that’s trying to mandate vaccines.

What’s the reason other RWingers from across the world to behave the same way?

The hard right are anti-intellectual, anti-people-with-brains, anti-people-with-qualifications.

 

[Stewie]

The hard right are anti-intellectual, anti-people-with-brains, anti-people-with-qualifications.

LOL. That’s a very vast, generalizing and opinionated statement. I was hoping for something more …… neutral perspective. But thanks!

 

[Saj]

Liverpool manager Jurgen Klopp has said refusing to take a COVID-19 vaccine is similar to drink-driving, as it endangers other people.

Speaking about vaccination, the 54-year-old German said he didn't understand how the coronavirus jab could be viewed by anti-vaxxers as a "limitation on freedom" - and revealed 99% of his Liverpool players are vaccinated.

In his news conference ahead of Sunday's match against Manchester City, he said: "If I say I am vaccinated, other people say: 'How can you tell me I should be vaccinated?' It is a little bit like drink-driving.

"We all probably were in a situation where we had a beer or two and thought we still could drive, but [because of] the law, we are not allowed to drive, so we don't drive.

"But this law is not there for protecting me when I drink two beers and want to drive, it's for protecting all the other people because I'm drunk, and we accept that as a law."

 

[Robert]

LOL. That’s a very vast, generalizing and opinionated statement. I was hoping for something more …… neutral perspective. But thanks!

Read up on fascism. Sometimes, generalisations are true.

 

[KingKhanWC]

I ignore your basic points because you repeat them over and over without hearing counter-argument.

I make a perfectly valid public health analogy about population-wide harm reduction.

1. So it got out of a lab in Wuhan. Irrelevant where it came from. It’s here now and we have to deal.

2. Last January, 2000 people were dying with COVID per day. Now, 150 people are dying per day. The difference is due to mass vaccine rollout. Those 2000 people per day didn’t have your “natural immunity seatbelt”, they went through the windscreen.

“Losing people was never as issue”…. to you. I presume nobody you know has been killed or crippled for life by this scourge. 150,000 dead and counting is an issue to me. Friends of mine lost parents, and colleagues will have lung scarring for life.

You think a 98% recovery rate is good? Let’s think about 2% of the population dying. Without the vaccine, that’s 1.3 million Britons dead. So the rest would gain “natural immunity” - and 1,3 million would die. So the vaccine has already saved over a million human souls, just in the UK. A million parents, spouses, siblings, and children didn’t have to bury a loved one.

I say buried. There would be no burials. There are not enough undertakers to bury that many. What I mean is the Army setting up mass cremation sites, and bulldozers shoving piles of corpses into mass graves.

The vaccine spared us that horror.

1. The government should be telling us the truth. You may be ok with governments lying about wars and nature of a virus but most people would not be. The more important point here is IF it came from a lab, this would mean the vaccine or the drugs created to combat this are not taking this into account. Therefore they are not producing the most efficient remedies.

Why do you think the governments of UK and US are hiding this?

2. It doesnt matter what occured last year. Scientific studies have suggesting natural immunity is over 20 x more of protection than a vaccine. Are you denying these studies? IF so why?

 

[Stewie]

1. The government should be telling us the truth. You may be ok with governments lying about wars and nature of a virus but most people would not be. The more important point here is IF it came from a lab, this would mean the vaccine or the drugs created to combat this are not taking this into account. Therefore they are not producing the most efficient remedies.

Why do you think the governments of UK and US are hiding this?

2. It doesnt matter what occured last year. Scientific studies have suggesting natural immunity is over 20 x more of protection than a vaccine. Are you denying these studies? IF so why?

All of that is conjecture, there is no evidence for 1. It’s leaked from a lab, 2. It was leaked by US or UK, because it came from Wuhan, 3. US and Uk have nothing to gain from hiding the fact it came from a lab, in fact some prominent leaders are accusing China of it now .. 4. Even if it did come from a lab, there is no science behind your claim that the vaccines are not an efficient remedy, it’s more of your personal opinion than fact or science based evidence

On your point number 2: please share sources that prove your point. I want to see those studies.

 

[KingKhanWC]

All of that is conjecture, there is no evidence for 1. It’s leaked from a lab, 2. It was leaked by US or UK, because it came from Wuhan, 3. US and Uk have nothing to gain from hiding the fact it came from a lab, in fact some prominent leaders are accusing China of it now .. 4. Even if it did come from a lab, there is no science behind your claim that the vaccines are not an efficient remedy, it’s more of your personal opinion than fact or science based evidence

On your point number 2: please share sources that prove your point. I want to see those studies.

1. Please write to the doctors and experts who have looked at the genome sequencing. Start of with US scientists Dr Steven Quay and Richard Muller. Ill let you do your own search for the evidence they have shared.

2. Already posted. See ealier post.

 

[Stewie]

1. Please write to the doctors and experts who have looked at the genome sequencing. Start of with US scientists Dr Steven Quay and Richard Muller. Ill let you do your own search for the evidence they have shared.

2. Already posted. See ealier post.

What about my points 2 through 4?
Any thoughts?

 

[KingKhanWC]

What about my points 2 through 4?
Any thoughts?

These are minor points atm which can be discussed once more evidence is collected imo.

This winter will see a big rise in viral infections imo.

I will stick to my routine of eating healthy, exercising intensly every day and staying chilled, no stress. Natural immunity will also help against the variants which are soon to emerge.

 

[Stewie]

These are minor points atm which can be discussed once more evidence is collected imo.

This winter will see a big rise in viral infections imo.

I will stick to my routine of eating healthy, exercising intensly every day and staying chilled, no stress. Natural immunity will also help against the variants which are soon to emerge.

These are not minor points if we are debating the reasoning behind getting or not getting vaccination.

For the sake of argument let’s say I concede the virus is man made. What proof do you have that IS and UK are behind it or the vaccine is not efficacious against the virus? I would in fact be more wary of Chinese vaccines but all others should be safe because they are designed (with proper testing) to counter the virus.
Would you disagree with me there?

 

[Stewie]

Also, another argument I have is:
If you truly believe the virus is man made, then the standard logic of human immunity goes out the window. It’s a biological weapon, not natural. Therefore, one’s natural immunity cannot be expected to protect one 100%. You want a specifically designed vaccine to counter the specifically designed virus.
Thoughts?

 

[Robert]

1. The government should be telling us the truth. You may be ok with governments lying about wars and nature of a virus but most people would not be. The more important point here is IF it came from a lab, this would mean the vaccine or the drugs created to combat this are not taking this into account. Therefore they are not producing the most efficient remedies.

Why do you think the governments of UK and US are hiding this?

2. It doesnt matter what occured last year. Scientific studies have suggesting natural immunity is over 20 x more of protection than a vaccine. Are you denying these studies? IF so why?

These questions don’t make sense.

You may be choosing to deliberately misunderstand my arguments, but as you are a basically decent chap I will assume you are haven’t learned much biological science.

I respectfully suggest you seek a basic primer on what a virus is, what epidemiology means, how vaccines work, and the historic role of vaccination in disease control. If you learn about the subject we can continue this discussion.

 

[Robert]

Also, another argument I have is:
If you truly believe the virus is man made, then the standard logic of human immunity goes out the window. ItÂ’s a biological weapon, not natural. Therefore, oneÂ’s natural immunity cannot be expected to protect one 100%. You want a specifically designed vaccine to counter the specifically designed virus.
Thoughts?

There’s a lot of rubbish talked about “natural immunity” on this thread. Even the flu can overload your “natural immunity” and kill you if you are weakened by age or having chemotherapy or have another disease to fight your immune system. For example, my mother died of septicaemia. Her immune system was weakened by chemotherapy and was engaged in fighting cancer, so when she got a UTI her immune system was overwhelmed and the bacterial infection killed her.

Vaccines protect us by giving our immune system a boost to a specific challenge - be that TB, polio, tetanus, Hepatitis, Yellow Fever, Measles, Mumps, Rubella, flu and now COVID. So our immune system is primed when COVID infects us, we raise antibodies and T-cells specific to COVID and kill the virus off before it has time to do lasting damage or even kill us. It will not make us absolutely safe against COVID but dramatically increases our odds of survival or avoiding long term damage to lungs, organs and brain.

As many have pointed out, COVID is 2% fatal. That means 2% of all infected people will die. The other 98% will raise “natural immunity” antibodies and T-cells to the COVID challenge when infected.

2% doesn’t sound like much until you remember that this country has 68M people, so about 1.3M people in Briton were predicted to die very quickly.

That is a number that our NHS cannot cope with. Even with lockdowns the NHS was pushed to the limit and bodies were backed up in freezers because the undertakers couldn’t bury or cremate them all fast enough. My father-in-law passed away in January. He didn’t die of COVID but went unburied for ten weeks, because of the backlog of dead bodies due to COVID. This was very distressing to the family.

So to avoid all those deaths, the governments threw money at the drug companies to very quickly develop and produce vaccines. These were effective in keeping the number of fatalities to around 150K rather than ten times that number.

 

[Stewie]

Fair points, Robert.
The mortality rate might be 2%, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t over burden the system. With high infection rates, how often do we hear there are no more beds or ventilators in the hospitals? The entire system gets overburdened and while a lot of lives are saved, all that effort has a cost. It indirectly affects a lot of people, lives, people’s well-being.

I think it’s our moral obligation to get vaccinated.

 

[Robert]

I think it’s our moral obligation to get vaccinated.

This.

I could probably throw it off without the vaccine, but there are people around me to consider.

Now my immune system is primed by the vaccine and I will only be infective for about three days instead of the two weeks were I unvaccinated and working up “natural immunity”, so I will infect fewer people.

My right to not get the jab is surpassed by my responsibility to others.

 

[KingKhanWC]

These questions don’t make sense.

You may be choosing to deliberately misunderstand my arguments, but as you are a basically decent chap I will assume you are haven’t learned much biological science.

I respectfully suggest you seek a basic primer on what a virus is, what epidemiology means, how vaccines work, and the historic role of vaccination in disease control. If you learn about the subject we can continue this discussion.

I respectfully suggest you at least try to understand if this is virus came from a lab, spreadiing around the world, people have a right to know.

Not everyone around the world is sheepish enough swallow what is fed to them. My sincere advice is stop accepting everything you read on BBC, investigate and look for other sources. You're a good chap too but your views are always mainstream. If you still cannot accept invading Iraq and killing 1 million is bad, you really shouldnt worry about people dying from a natural virus.

 

[Stewie]

I respectfully suggest you at least try to understand if this is virus came from a lab, spreadiing around the world, people have a right to know.

Not everyone around the world is sheepish enough swallow what is fed to them. My sincere advice is stop accepting everything you read on BBC, investigate and look for other sources. You're a good chap too but your views are always mainstream. If you still cannot accept invading Iraq and killing 1 million is bad, you really shouldnt worry about people dying from a natural virus.

The Chinese are very skittish, they don’t let investigators easily come into their country. They already wiped down the entire Wuhan area and burnt quite a bit of the evidence in the name of cleanup. When the UN investigations team arrived in Wuhan, they found nothing.

The world is made up of hundreds of countries and governments, you make it sound like they are all United in some dastardly plan. That’s not the case.
I agree we all deserve to know but if this was a lab leak or intentional, it was done very well. One of those things we will never find out, IMO.

 

[Robert]

I respectfully suggest you at least try to understand if this is virus came from a lab, spreadiing around the world, people have a right to know.

Not everyone around the world is sheepish enough swallow what is fed to them. My sincere advice is stop accepting everything you read on BBC, investigate and look for other sources. You're a good chap too but your views are always mainstream. If you still cannot accept invading Iraq and killing 1 million is bad, you really shouldnt worry about people dying from a natural virus.

My views are based on formal education - holding a degree in biomedical science - rather than social media rumour.. That’s how I know which sources are credible, and how to apply the information they provide.

 

[KingKhanWC]

My views are based on formal education - holding a degree in biomedical science - rather than social media rumour.. That’s how I know which sources are credible, and how to apply the information they provide.

This means nothing, esp since your arguments are of a school level at times. What matters is the points of debate, this isnt a social media site to make friends.

1. You claimed it doesnt matter if the virus came from a lab. When you have such a closed approach to something so serious, you lose a lot of credibility.

More evidence has came to light.

Wuhan scientists and US researchers planned to create a new coronavirus in 2018: Consortium led by Brit Peter Daszak asked DARPA to fund research at lab in city where Covid pandemic began

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...nd-new-coronavirus-leaked-proposals-show.html

2. You claim everyone should be vaccinated, help saving others, like wearing a seatbelt. Yet you ignore the masses of new data and many scientists stating natural immunity is far better than a vaccine.

In the UK, we are merely into October but a high number of vaccinated people are now testing positive.

If you want to take a booster every six months, sure but nobody has the right to tell others what they should inject into their bodies. After these two points, only a fool would still advise others to be vaccinated.

 

[khan-92]

There’s a lot of rubbish talked about “natural immunity” on this thread. Even the flu can overload your “natural immunity” and kill you if you are weakened by age or having chemotherapy or have another disease to fight your immune system. For example, my mother died of septicaemia. Her immune system was weakened by chemotherapy and was engaged in fighting cancer, so when she got a UTI her immune system was overwhelmed and the bacterial infection killed her.

Vaccines protect us by giving our immune system a boost to a specific challenge - be that TB, polio, tetanus, Hepatitis, Yellow Fever, Measles, Mumps, Rubella, flu and now COVID. So our immune system is primed when COVID infects us, we raise antibodies and T-cells specific to COVID and kill the virus off before it has time to do lasting damage or even kill us. It will not make us absolutely safe against COVID but dramatically increases our odds of survival or avoiding long term damage to lungs, organs and brain.

As many have pointed out, COVID is 2% fatal. That means 2% of all infected people will die. The other 98% will raise “natural immunity” antibodies and T-cells to the COVID challenge when infected.

2% doesn’t sound like much until you remember that this country has 68M people, so about 1.3M people in Briton were predicted to die very quickly.

That is a number that our NHS cannot cope with. Even with lockdowns the NHS was pushed to the limit and bodies were backed up in freezers because the undertakers couldn’t bury or cremate them all fast enough. My father-in-law passed away in January. He didn’t die of COVID but went unburied for ten weeks, because of the backlog of dead bodies due to COVID. This was very distressing to the family.

So to avoid all those deaths, the governments threw money at the drug companies to very quickly develop and produce vaccines. These were effective in keeping the number of fatalities to around 150K rather than ten times that number.

There is a doctor who did test on effects of vaccine on immune system.
He was shocked to see that the vaccine is making the immune system weak & causing auto immune disease.
And his worried that we will have millions of sick people when they catch another viral infection because of this.

 

[Robert]

This means nothing, esp since your arguments are of a school level at times. What matters is the points of debate, this isnt a social media site to make friends.

1. You claimed it doesnt matter if the virus came from a lab. When you have such a closed approach to something so serious, you lose a lot of credibility.

More evidence has came to light.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...nd-new-coronavirus-leaked-proposals-show.html

2. You claim everyone should be vaccinated, help saving others, like wearing a seatbelt. Yet you ignore the masses of new data and many scientists stating natural immunity is far better than a vaccine.

In the UK, we are merely into October but a high number of vaccinated people are now testing positive.

If you want to take a booster every six months, sure but nobody has the right to tell others what they should inject into their bodies. After these two points, only a fool would still advise others to be vaccinated.

Ok, so my studying microbiology, immunology and epidemiology for years means nothing to you. Do you know the difference between hum oral and cellular immune response? What an antibody looks like? The different types? How T-cells work, what a macrophage is, how the complement system works and how it is triggered? How vaccines influence all these?

1. Whether it came from a lab in Wuhan or not is irrelevant to me. So what if it is made in a lab? What can we do about that? What recourse do we have? Complain to the UN? Nuke China in revenge? We can do nothing.

2. As I have already stated more than once: the population working up what you term “natural immunity” means ten times the deaths in the UK as the population getting mass vaccinated. 130,000 deaths stretched the NHS and gravediggers to breaking point. 1.3 million deaths means societal collapse. Every government knows it, and that is why every government has mass vaccinated its people. But not only do you think you know better than me who has actually studied this subject, you think you know better than every government too.

Yes I know vaccinated people are getting sick from COVID, including Mrs Robert’s friend. As she is doubled jabbed she has a much better chance of survival or avoiding being crippled than not getting vaccinated and relying on “natural immunity”.

You are only thinking in terms of your personal freedom not to have a jab. I am thinking in terms of the whole population - the one million Britons who stayed alive because they got vaccinated. But that million souls don’t matter to you because they aren’t you, right? Your personal freedom is more important than the freedom of a million people to continue to live, after all.

 

[IMMY69]

There is a doctor who did test on effects of vaccine on immune system.
He was shocked to see that the vaccine is making the immune system weak & causing auto immune disease.
And his worried that we will have millions of sick people when they catch another viral infection because of this.

I have an autoimmune disease, I'm double jabbed snd I had covid after being double jabbed.
I'm thankful I got the vaccine otherwise I may not be here now

 

[KingKhanWC]

Ok, so my studying microbiology, immunology and epidemiology for years means nothing to you. Do you know the difference between hum oral and cellular immune response? What an antibody looks like? The different types? How T-cells work, what a macrophage is, how the complement system works and how it is triggered? How vaccines influence all these?

1. Whether it came from a lab in Wuhan or not is irrelevant to me. So what if it is made in a lab? What can we do about that? What recourse do we have? Complain to the UN? Nuke China in revenge? We can do nothing.

2. As I have already stated more than once: the population working up what you term “natural immunity” means ten times the deaths in the UK as the population getting mass vaccinated. 130,000 deaths stretched the NHS and gravediggers to breaking point. 1.3 million deaths means societal collapse. Every government knows it, and that is why every government has mass vaccinated its people. But not only do you think you know better than me who has actually studied this subject, you think you know better than every government too.

Yes I know vaccinated people are getting sick from COVID, including Mrs Robert’s friend. As she is doubled jabbed she has a much better chance of survival or avoiding being crippled than not getting vaccinated and relying on “natural immunity”.

You are only thinking in terms of your personal freedom not to have a jab. I am thinking in terms of the whole population - the one million Britons who stayed alive because they got vaccinated. But that million souls don’t matter to you because they aren’t you, right? Your personal freedom is more important than the freedom of a million people to continue to live, after all.

Irrelevant as I would rather take my information from a known expert, not somebody on a forum. Here we can only discuss/debate, not give others medical advice. Do you know the history of each person on this forum? You could pressure someone to have a vaccine, who may then suffer serious side effects or they may have natural immunity already. Please keep your medical advice to yourself and your own family.

1. If it came from a lab, an investigation will allow us to determine how this was created, helping to find better cures. We know the vaccines arent very good. We also need to hold people accountable for producing viruses which are more infectious and dangerous. The US and China have both worked on this type of biological warfare. You may want to turn a blind eye, just like you did after Iraq but others care about the planet.

2. Governments have been wrong and are being proven to be wrong here. A new leak from Pzifer shows its scientists confirming natural immuntiy is better. They also say its all for money, reason why they keep pushing the vaccines. The evidence is strong now, natural immunity is far more better.

Again, you dont care about people lol. If you did , you wouldnt support immoral invasions and occupations. You follow mainstream because its easier for you to accept you are not being lied to by your great nation etc.

 

[KingKhanWC]

I have an autoimmune disease, I'm double jabbed snd I had covid after being double jabbed.
I'm thankful I got the vaccine otherwise I may not be here now

Your natural immunity would have done the same and you may not have got Covid again.

 

[Stewie]

Your natural immunity would have done the same and you may not have got Covid again.

How often do people have to tell you, if you have underlying conditions (known or unknown) you can really suffer and actually die if you get infected. Is that a chance you are willing to take? Is that a chance older people should take?

You can still get Covid if you are vaccinated but there is a good chance it will protect you and you won’t die. What about the part where you may survive and get natural immunity but what about your older parents at home or others with co morbidities who you can easily infect while you comfortably get infected with the virus in the name of natural immunity?

Also: the natural immunity doesn’t mean you can’t catch it again. You are not set for life. We all had flu I am sure at some point in our lives but that doesn’t protect us forever. Quite honestly nothing does.. not the vaccine or natural immunity. It’s all a game of playing the odds at this point.

 

[KingKhanWC]

How often do people have to tell you, if you have underlying conditions (known or unknown) you can really suffer and actually die if you get infected. Is that a chance you are willing to take? Is that a chance older people should take?

You can still get Covid if you are vaccinated but there is a good chance it will protect you and you won’t die. What about the part where you may survive and get natural immunity but what about your older parents at home or others with co morbidities who you can easily infect while you comfortably get infected with the virus in the name of natural immunity?

Also: the natural immunity doesn’t mean you can’t catch it again. You are not set for life. We all had flu I am sure at some point in our lives but that doesn’t protect us forever. Quite honestly nothing does.. not the vaccine or natural immunity. It’s all a game of playing the odds at this point.

Did you get this from CNN and Fauci?

I suggest you study the multiple new scientific reports regarding natural immunity compared to vaccine. They take underlying health conditions into account. Every person is unique, their conditions, their genetics, their environment etc etc. To say vaccines are better for people with underlying health conditions is simply not true.

 

[Stewie]

If you want to get personal, sure.

You are one of the most sheepish, idiotic posters there out there esp in this topic. Read the latest studies, there are many. View the lastest undercover video of Pfzier employees, who are telling EACH other the vaccine push is for money. Instead of doing your research , you're acting like some clown from CNN.

Do not quote me again, state what you like and worry about your own family.

Lol, as usual nothing but tall self righteous claims. Cite your sources, you never do that. Which Pfizer employees are you talking about here? Who is behaving like sheep here? This is exactly the sort of crap that would never allow us to recover from this pandemic. Like I said, you are free to believe in not getting the vaccine, but if you want to preach your beliefs, BACK them up with evidence. If you don’t do that, you are just another uneducated RW hype believing nut. If me calling you out bothers you so much, don’t engage in a debate with me. Just don’t ask me to go bury my head in the sand over your idiotic rants. Sorry that won’t happen! Good luck trying to shut me up. Hope you learn that sooner rather than later.

 

[Stewie]

Here are some my own sources:

https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/covid-19-studies-natural-immunity-versus-vaccination

https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-protection.html

https://hub.jhu.edu/2021/09/10/infection-from-covid-vs-vaccines/

 

[KingKhanWC]

Lol, as usual nothing but tall self righteous claims. Cite your sources, you never do that. Which Pfizer employees are you talking about here? Who is behaving like sheep here? This is exactly the sort of crap that would never allow us to recover from this pandemic. Like I said, you are free to believe in not getting the vaccine, but if you want to preach your beliefs, BACK them up with evidence. If you don’t do that, you are just another uneducated RW hype believing nut. If me calling you out bothers you so much, don’t engage in a debate with me. Just don’t ask me to go bury my head in the sand over your idiotic rants. Sorry that won’t happen! Good luck trying to shut me up. Hope you learn that sooner rather than later.

Debate the points, if you want to get personal behind your keyboard, I can too.

I hope you for once use some intellect and do your own research. Ive pointed you in the right directions, check up the numerous new studies , esp the Israeli one which suggests natural immunity is up to 20+x more likely to protect over a vaccine. Check the lastest video of Pzifer employees and while you're at it, check the leaked documents showing US and China agreed to work on viruses to make them more infectious. Or keep watching Andreson Cooper on CNN. Ill reply if I feel its worth my time , so dont feel you have somehow won a debate lol.

 

[Stewie]

Debate the points, if you want to get personal behind your keyboard, I can too.

I hope you for once use some intellect and do your own research. Ive pointed you in the right directions, check up the numerous new studies , esp the Israeli one which suggests natural immunity is up to 20+x more likely to protect over a vaccine. Check the lastest video of Pzifer employees and while you're at it, check the leaked documents showing US and China agreed to work on viruses to make them more infectious. Or keep watching Andreson Cooper on CNN. Ill reply if I feel its worth my time , so dont feel you have somehow won a debate lol.

So let me make it idiot proof, give you two case scenarios:

Persons A and B are young healthy men without any co morbidities or existing conditions. But in their household or daily lives, they interact with a lot of people who are old, have underlying conditions and other health conditions.

Person A doesn’t get the vaccine. He gets Covid, but he recovers in a few days thanks to his immunity and now he is well protected. Fine! What about the risk factors to those he shares his home with or works with? He infects them and they suffer, possibly die.

Person B gets the vaccine and this protects himself and others. He is not 100% protected, but his chances of getting the virus are now much lower than Person A.

So which scenario is beneficial in your opinion?


But it doesn’t end there:
There is a Person C who thinks he is young and healthy. But he has some underlying condition he doesn’t know of. He doesn’t get the vaccine and suffers from over over complications, possibly dies.


I am not even going to argue that natural immunity is better although I shared enough research up to that says it’s not. But the science is changing, so let’s say it’s not determined right now. But in a holistic argument I present to you is beside that point.

Most desis have older parents living with them and therefore, spreading this sort of stuff on a desi forum is very very dangerous. Heck I think you are most dangerous for your own family if you truly believe this stuff. Walk around without PPE or vaccination all you want but I hope you got your parents and older people in the house vaccinated.

 

[KingKhanWC]

So let me make it idiot proof, give you two case scenarios:

Persons A and B are young healthy men without any co morbidities or existing conditions. But in their household or daily lives, they interact with a lot of people who are old, have underlying conditions and other health conditions.

Person A doesn’t get the vaccine. He gets Covid, but he recovers in a few days thanks to his immunity and now he is well protected. Fine! What about the risk factors to those he shares his home with or works with? He infects them and they suffer, possibly die.

Person B gets the vaccine and this protects himself and others. He is not 100% protected, but his chances of getting the virus are now much lower than Person A.

So which scenario is beneficial in your opinion?


But it doesn’t end there:
There is a Person C who thinks he is young and healthy. But he has some underlying condition he doesn’t know of. He doesn’t get the vaccine and suffers from over over complications, possibly dies.


I am not even going to argue that natural immunity is better although I shared enough research up to that says it’s not. But the science is changing, so let’s say it’s not determined right now. But in a holistic argument I present to you is beside that point.

Most desis have older parents living with them and therefore, spreading this sort of stuff on a desi forum is very very dangerous. Heck I think you are most dangerous for your own family if you truly believe this stuff. Walk around without PPE or vaccination all you want but I hope you got your parents and older people in the house vaccinated.

Try again, use your brain to research what I have pointed to. You havent and are just spouting like Wolf Blitzer. Until you do, no point quoting me, find a real hobby.

I would advise to stick to worrying about your own family. You sound like a clown who wouldnt say this my face. But ok , I feel sorry for your family, you are not only dangerous but havent been bought up with any sort of understanding, so I feel sorry for them too.

 

[Stewie]

Try again, use your brain to research what I have pointed to. You havent and are just spouting like Wolf Blitzer. Until you do, no point quoting me, find a real hobby.

I would advise to stick to worrying about your own family. You sound like a clown who wouldnt say this my face. But ok , I feel sorry for your family, you are not only dangerous but havent been bought up with any sort of understanding, so I feel sorry for them too.

That’s so typical you, all of a sudden beating around the bush! Launching personal attacks, just wow, I am sure you think it makes you look manly but you ain’t fooling anyone kid. You simply don’t have an answer. We are yet to see any proof from you on your other idiotic claims about more people dying due to vaccinations than Covid! What about your claim the virus is man made and again no proof.

You are the one who preaches about debating well let’s debate, don’t hide behind insults and I certainly hope you don’t run away. Please tell me you are not Person A for your family’s sake. In fact, do me a favor and show the cases from my last post to someone in your family who is college educated and doesn’t work at the local take out. Get their buy in. Trust me you and your folks would be better off.

 

[Stewie]

So let me make it idiot proof, give you two case scenarios:

Persons A and B are young healthy men without any co morbidities or existing conditions. But in their household or daily lives, they interact with a lot of people who are old, have underlying conditions and other health conditions.

Person A doesn’t get the vaccine. He gets Covid, but he recovers in a few days thanks to his immunity and now he is well protected. Fine! What about the risk factors to those he shares his home with or works with? He infects them and they suffer, possibly die.

Person B gets the vaccine and this protects himself and others. He is not 100% protected, but his chances of getting the virus are now much lower than Person A.

So which scenario is beneficial in your opinion?


But it doesn’t end there:
There is a Person C who thinks he is young and healthy. But he has some underlying condition he doesn’t know of. He doesn’t get the vaccine and suffers from over over complications, possibly dies.


I am not even going to argue that natural immunity is better although I shared enough research up to that says it’s not. But the science is changing, so let’s say it’s not determined right now. But in a holistic argument I present to you is beside that point.

Most desis have older parents living with them and therefore, spreading this sort of stuff on a desi forum is very very dangerous. Heck I think you are most dangerous for your own family if you truly believe this stuff. Walk around without PPE or vaccination all you want but I hope you got your parents and older people in the house vaccinated.

To other posters here: please share your thoughts on these scenarios. Which Person would you rather be? I would really like to see some responses on that point. Would like to see how many think I am an idiot like the immensely intelligent KingKhanWC here. Lol. How many agree with my point?

Do you guys agree with KingKhanWC that Covid vaccines have caused more deaths than the actual virus? Why do you think he believes that?

I think engagement in this thread should now be considered community volunteer work due to its nature!

 

[KingKhanWC]

That’s so typical you, all of a sudden beating around the bush! Launching personal attacks, just wow, I am sure you think it makes you look manly but you ain’t fooling anyone kid. You simply don’t have an answer. We are yet to see any proof from you on your other idiotic claims about more people dying due to vaccinations than Covid! What about your claim the virus is man made and again no proof.

You are the one who preaches about debating well let’s debate, don’t hide behind insults and I certainly hope you don’t run away. Please tell me you are not Person A for your family’s sake. In fact, do me a favor and show the cases from my last post to someone in your family who is college educated and doesn’t work at the local take out. Get their buy in. Trust me you and your folks would be better off.

Seriously find a hobby, try softball or become part of BLM. I debate with my family reguarly, who are much more ecucated than you and likely more than anyone in your family. Spend your time helping them instead of watching CNN and trolling on here. Seems they need it if they bought you up.

 

[khan-92]

I have an autoimmune disease, I'm double jabbed snd I had covid after being double jabbed.
I'm thankful I got the vaccine otherwise I may not be here now

I had covid and not jabbed 45-50 age range.
I am still here now without being jabbed Alhumdulilah.
These vaccines especially the MRNA are causing more health problems then just protecting you from covid.
Why doesn't the mainstream media speak about adverse effects after vaccines, deaths after vaccines etc ?
Seen another video of pfizer scientist privately telling someone who is recording him with hidden camera that natural immunity is better then vaccine and gives you better protection.
But when he was confronted publicly say it on camera by a reporter he refused and drove off.
We need more safety data before we start mass vaccination of population especially children & people under 50.

 

[Robert]

Irrelevant as I would rather take my information from a known expert, not somebody on a forum. Here we can only discuss/debate, not give others medical advice. Do you know the history of each person on this forum? You could pressure someone to have a vaccine, who may then suffer serious side effects or they may have natural immunity already. Please keep your medical advice to yourself and your own family.

1. If it came from a lab, an investigation will allow us to determine how this was created, helping to find better cures. We know the vaccines arent very good. We also need to hold people accountable for producing viruses which are more infectious and dangerous. The US and China have both worked on this type of biological warfare. You may want to turn a blind eye, just like you did after Iraq but others care about the planet.

2. Governments have been wrong and are being proven to be wrong here. A new leak from Pzifer shows its scientists confirming natural immuntiy is better. They also say its all for money, reason why they keep pushing the vaccines. The evidence is strong now, natural immunity is far more better.

Again, you dont care about people lol. If you did , you wouldnt support immoral invasions and occupations. You follow mainstream because its easier for you to accept you are not being lied to by your great nation etc.

Interestingly you have avoided all my technical questions about basic immunology. Ok, so you don’t understand immunology and rely on the “known experts” - but they say take the vaccine! So you ignore them instead because they don’t agree with you. What you do is find a piece of research and quote part of it out of context. You do not seek advice, you seek to confirm your own bias.

1. When you say “a cure” what do you mean? Viruses have no cure, except our own immune systems - which are boosted by the vaccine to save lives.

The process of research into treatment would be exactly the same for a naturally mutating or genetically modified virus.

Again, how do we hold scientists in a closed authoritarian society accountable? The PRC will deny culpability forever, and even if they own up then what could you actually do? Ask then to pay for the burials of the five million COVID victims?

2. You just keep repeating the same point, so I will too. What you mean by “natural immunity” is in operational terms the Do Nothing Option. Doing nothing and letting the virus rip (as Johnson put it) would have killed another million Britons before the rest worked up “natural immunity”.

Let me ask you a question. What would you have done about smallpox - do nothing and let the world build up “natural immunity”? What would happen?

And another - what would you do about malaria - wait for the world to build up “natural immunity”?

 

[Robert]

Try again, use your brain to research what I have pointed to. You havent and are just spouting like Wolf Blitzer. Until you do, no point quoting me, find a real hobby.

Actually [MENTION=17315]Stewie[/MENTION] is applying reason. We load the odds in our favour by taking the vaccine. Might still get sick. But our chances of hospitalisation / death / getting crippled for life are much reduced compared to not taking the vaccine.

 

[Robert]

These vaccines especially the MRNA are causing more health problems then just protecting you from covid.
Why doesn't the mainstream media speak about adverse effects after vaccines, deaths after vaccines etc?.

Because the chance of getting a blood clot from AZ is radically less than the chance of dying or being crippled by COVID.

Getting COVID means 2% chance of death. So 1.5 million Britons die.

Taking the vaccine means 0.001% chance of a blood clot. So 670 Britons get a blood clot, and most of them are given warfarin and don’t die.

 

[Technics 1210]

Death rate of C19 before vaccine was under 0.2% in UK

In England, out of 6.8M infections, 120K died in 2020

John Hopkins data

https://github.com/CSSEGISandData/COVID-19

 

[Technics 1210]

The reality is this, if people choose not to take the vaccine, then it's their choice, their risk, but they shouldn't be judged or riddiculed for choosing so.

What I find remarkable is that billion dollar corporations cannot eradicate hunger, or other illnesses, but were superfast in releasing a vaccine for C19, multiple companies did, and ofcourse the share owners profited big time.

 

[Robert]

Death rate of C19 before vaccine was under 0.2% in UK

In England, out of 6.8M infections, 120K died in 2020

John Hopkins data

https://github.com/CSSEGISandData/COVID-19

That’s with the lockdowns though, where the NHS didn’t get overwhelmed.

The death rate soared after Christmas 2020 and only started to drop with mass vaccination.

 

[Robert]

The reality is this, if people choose not to take the vaccine, then it's their choice, their risk, but they shouldn't be judged or riddiculed for choosing so.

What I find remarkable is that billion dollar corporations cannot eradicate hunger, or other illnesses, but were superfast in releasing a vaccine for C19, multiple companies did, and ofcourse the share owners profited big time.

Ah, but it’s a highly contagious disease so it’s not just their risk. Their right not to take the vaccine should not override their responsibility to protect others. Those of us who have accepted that responsibility can choose to judge those who do not, though respectful persuasion is better.

Thought you like capitalism? It’s not the task of corporations to eradicate hunger, it is the task of governments, whose task it is also to protect us from COVID.

 

[Technics 1210]

Ah, but it’s a highly contagious disease so it’s not just their risk. Their right not to take the vaccine should not override their responsibility to protect others. Those of us who have accepted that responsibility can choose to judge those who do not, though respectful persuasion is better.

Thought you like capitalism? It’s not the task of corporations to eradicate hunger, it is the task of governments, whose task it is also to protect us from COVID.

I also mentioned ‘other illnesses’, and the speed at which the vaccine was produced. Plus why not dish out the medicines for free for all diseases? Health for profit isn’t capitalism, it’s ransom. The big pharma’s once again profited from the virus, getting richer and louder with there lobbies in Government.

 

[OMB]

I don't know what has happened but ever since I have taken the vaccines, my health has turned for the worse. Within hours of taking the vaccine, my blood pressure has shot high and I am constantly having headaches and nausea. I feel my system has been messed up with. My wife and kids are vaccinated and are doing fine.

Unfortunately, no doctor will publicly agree with my diagnosis and are trying their best to start me on BP pills. I am having none of that and fortunately met one homeopathy doctor who has brought it under control. She herself says she and her kids have not taken the vaccine and are doing just fine even after one and a half years now. Guys - you know your body so think and judge for yourself.

No need to call out or make fun of anti-vaxxers as I have taken 4 shots (2 chinese and 2 pfizer) and I am regretting now.

 

[Stewie]

The reality is this, if people choose not to take the vaccine, then it's their choice, their risk, but they shouldn't be judged or riddiculed for choosing so.

What I find remarkable is that billion dollar corporations cannot eradicate hunger, or other illnesses, but were superfast in releasing a vaccine for C19, multiple companies did, and ofcourse the share owners profited big time.

I agree with you, and I support the right of people to make their own decision. If you do not want the vaccine, don’t get it and nobody should force you too, but one should be able to suggest getting it, backed with evidence and logic that support the benefits of getting the vaccine. It’s a debate. And if one wants to argue using pseudo science or conspiracy theory garbage, then I am sorry that’s not going to work. If you promote your “opinion” or stance as fact and back it with falsehoods or those conspiracy theories, it becomes fairly dangerous and something we should guard against.
I think those on the opposing side are well within their right to point such people out, point out those falsehoods and present their side backed with evidence. There is nothing wrong with it. If they do it without proper backing material then they are wrong as well.


That’s just my opinion. Another opinion of mine is that I am noticing it’s becoming sort of a fad to argue science with pseudo science or anecdotals which doesn’t help matters much. When we trust doctors and medicine to guide us in our lives from birth till death and we get all the vaccines as mandated by governments, healthcare institutions, etc, what’s so special about this one? Why the opposition? Just because it’s politicized? And you happen to stand with the other side that opposes taking this vaccine, doesn’t make it a scientifically justified stance.

 

[Technics 1210]

Big pharmaceutical companies do not want healthy people. The sicker the people, the more sales, the more profit.

NHS isn’t struggling because of lack of nurses, its struggling because big pharma subsidies medicine to the NHS and our NI contributions fund the medicine.

The moral obligation, if we are to believe is to save humanity, is for big pharma to distribute medicine for free.

Instead, said companies are too busy patenting medicine - sickness translates to wealth, not health.

Sickening - pun fully intended.

 

[Stewie]

Big pharmaceutical companies do not want healthy people. The sicker the people, the more sales, the more profit.

NHS isn’t struggling because of lack of nurses, its struggling because big pharma subsidies medicine to the NHS and our NI contributions fund the medicine.

The moral obligation, if we are to believe is to save humanity, is for big pharma to distribute medicine for free.

Instead, said companies are too busy patenting medicine - sickness translates to wealth, not health.

Sickening - pun fully intended.

That’s a very general statement, and I do not believe this applies to the current topic. They death toll was rising and there was a lot of pressure on governments to produce a vaccine. Now we have quite a few. And here in the US they are free. Of course pharmas are going to profit because they are a business at the end of the day. But the similar logic applies to flu shots, vaccines for polio, TB, etc.

I know it sounds great if you say they should distribute these drugs for free but it’s not practical or realistic. Tons of money is spent on research, testing, labor, etc to invent these drugs. If they don’t profit and tank, we will be worse off.

 

[Technics 1210]

Meanwhile, Amreeka is the only 1st world country in the world, the beacon of human civilisation - where one can be bankrupt just for appealing to health services.

Brings an entire new meaning to - health is wealth.

 

[Stewie]

Meanwhile, Amreeka is the only 1st world country in the world, the beacon of human civilisation - where one can be bankrupt just for appealing to health services.

Brings an entire new meaning to - health is wealth.

That’s just capitalism and the stubborn conservatives who want healthcare to stay a part of capital economy and not end up as a social welfare scheme. But in my view that’s the direction where most countries will head anyway. If I understand correctly, the UK system is severely overburdened and could go the US way as well.

 

[Technics 1210]

I don't know what has happened but ever since I have taken the vaccines, my health has turned for the worse. Within hours of taking the vaccine, my blood pressure has shot high and I am constantly having headaches and nausea. I feel my system has been messed up with. My wife and kids are vaccinated and are doing fine.

Unfortunately, no doctor will publicly agree with my diagnosis and are trying their best to start me on BP pills. I am having none of that and fortunately met one homeopathy doctor who has brought it under control. She herself says she and her kids have not taken the vaccine and are doing just fine even after one and a half years now. Guys - you know your body so think and judge for yourself.

No need to call out or make fun of anti-vaxxers as I have taken 4 shots (2 chinese and 2 pfizer) and I am regretting now.

I sympathise with you brother. Your story is one of millions. Mainstream media will not pay attention, mainstream doctors will not support you in fear of losing their medical license. Big pharma has complete control.

It's all a game.

Look into CBD. It's the death knell to big pharma.

 

[Technics 1210]

Why are those who are vaccinated afraid of other who are not, when the vaccine is meant to protect you from the virus?

Lets save the moral obligation and judgement for propaganda.

 

[Stewie]

Why are those who are vaccinated afraid of other who are not, when the vaccine is meant to protect you from the virus?

Lets save the moral obligation and judgement for propaganda.

Back in august or thereabouts, 85% of the deaths in my state were of unvaccinated people. The other 15% were people who still got the virus due to co morbidities.

Being vaccinated doesn’t not protect you 100%. As a society you only benefit if the vaccination rate is high. If not the virus will keep circulating and people will keep passing it back and forth to the vaccinated and unvaccinated alike. The result is the infection rates don’t go down and this pandemic just keeps going and going.

 

[Robert]

Why are those who are vaccinated afraid of other who are not, when the vaccine is meant to protect you from the virus?

Lets save the moral obligation and judgement for propaganda.

Afraid? Not afraid. Saddened. Because it’s about making everybody safer. We vaccinated people bit the bullet, woke up sweaty and achy with sore arms, did our civic duty, discharged our responsibility to the whole population.

 

[khan-92]

Afraid? Not afraid. Saddened. Because it’s about making everybody safer. We vaccinated people bit the bullet, woke up sweaty and achy with sore arms, did our civic duty, discharged our responsibility to the whole population.

Good on you for doing your duty why worry about the unvaccinated then?
Sorry to inform you honest scientists & doctors are saying the vaccinated are spreading the variants.
Do some research don't fall for the propaganda that vaccines will stop covid.
I am afraid its the other way round vaccines are causing the spread of the virus due to mutation & deadly variants, which the vaccine are useless against.
Israel has just cancelled green passport for everyone and told them to get a booster for extension.
Thats the new norm big pharma has everyone by the balls & will tell them get booster for rest of your life if you want to be protected & they will be laughing all the way to the bank.
A young lad 17 yr old died after vax who will take responsibility for his life?
He would have never died from covid but vaccine has killed him.
Here is article & Video regarding his death.

‘A truly gentle soul' - Tributes to student Adam Ali, 17, after sudden death - Birmingham Live
https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/a-truly-gentle-soul-tributes-21763398

He died after the vax but no mention of it anywhere in the media.

Guys watch the video below before the fact-hiders at u Tube delete it. These locals are brave warriors and concerned citizens. They went to the police station to report the murder of Adam Ali as a result of the jab.

They have a crime number. If no action is taken they will be back with the parents of the poor child next week.

Kudos to these brave warriors.

https://youtu.be/3wd74Qi0j5k

 

[Robert]

Good on you for doing your duty why worry about the unvaccinated then?
Sorry to inform you honest scientists & doctors are saying the vaccinated are spreading the variants.
Do some research don't fall for the propaganda that vaccines will stop covid.
I am afraid its the other way round vaccines are causing the spread of the virus due to mutation & deadly variants, which the vaccine are useless against.
Israel has just cancelled green passport for everyone and told them to get a booster for extension.
Thats the new norm big pharma has everyone by the balls & will tell them get booster for rest of your life if you want to be protected & they will be laughing all the way to the bank.
A young lad 17 yr old died after vax who will take responsibility for his life?
He would have never died from covid but vaccine has killed him.
Here is article & Video regarding his death.

‘A truly gentle soul' - Tributes to student Adam Ali, 17, after sudden death - Birmingham Live
https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/a-truly-gentle-soul-tributes-21763398

He died after the vax but no mention of it anywhere in the media.

Guys watch the video below before the fact-hiders at u Tube delete it. These locals are brave warriors and concerned citizens. They went to the police station to report the murder of Adam Ali as a result of the jab.

They have a crime number. If no action is taken they will be back with the parents of the poor child next week.

Kudos to these brave warriors.

https://youtu.be/3wd74Qi0j5k

Please stop calling your confirmation bias process “research”. You haven’t done any research. YouTube is not research. YouTube and other social media actively drive the disinformation process through algorithms designed to show you more of what you want to believe.

Research is the process done in laboratories by virologists to find vaccines which have saved millions of lives from COVID already.

Also please avoid hyperbolic language such as “useless”. The vaccines aren’t useless against the Delta variant, though they are of reduced effectiveness compared to the other variants.

What KKWC describes as “natural immunity” also creates variants, through the engine of evolution. Look at influenza. Every couple of years it changes antigenicity, because every couple of years the human immune system adapts to kill it. Flu changes to survive, just like every other organism. But viruses can do it fast, in months instead of millions of years because they are the simplest life forms. So all the elders get offered a flu vaccine raised against the most recent strains and lots of them survive the winter instead of being killed by flu. So you see that booster jabs for COVID are not a new idea but an established decades-old practice.

How did I learn this? From reading textbooks at university.

 

[khan-92]

Have look at this before it is taken down these are doctors & scientists who know more about viruses, vaccines then me & you or anyone else on this forum does.
https://youtu.be/4IeVy7jQoz0

 

[khan-92]

Why are people who are vehemently against the covid vaccine also the same people who think OBL never existed, 9/11 and 7/7 bombings were false flags and so on… you get the drift… loonies!

If you want to be a guinea pig for experimental vaccines which have no safety data on long term effects on people.
Please go ahead & take them but don't expect everyone to take them.
Scientists & doctors whose voices been silenced are warning about adverse effects of them.
Why they not allowed on mainstream media?it's a fact now more people have died after covid vaccine then any other vaccines which have been created.
It is becoming pandemic of the vaccinated not the unvaccinated now.

 

[Technics 1210]

They think they are cool outsiders, smarter and better than the common herd. To them, anything on what they term “the MSM” is state or corporate propaganda and anything on social media confirming their bias is automatically true. They discount actual learning from peer-reviewed texts where it doesn’t jibe with what they want to believe about the world, or rather, how they see themselves.

I would urge everyone to watch The Social Dilemma on Netflix, exploring how social media inculcates viewers with false beliefs by feeding them more and more of what it thinks they like - the currency is our continuing attention.

There’s nothing cool in questioning the actions and deeds of governments; it’s our right. Wouldn’t be the first time they’ve been caught lying to the public.

Remember, you do not trust the current UK government and say they are a bunch of clowns, especially in regard to Brexit and what not. You call them liars, yet trust them when it comes to Covid - yeah makes complete sense.

 

[Robert]

There’s nothing cool in questioning the actions and deeds of governments; it’s our right. Wouldn’t be the first time they’ve been caught lying to the public.

Remember, you do not trust the current UK government and say they are a bunch of clowns, especially in regard to Brexit and what not. You call them liars, yet trust them when it comes to Covid - yeah makes complete sense.

Question if you like, but be informed in your questioning. Don’t just assume that everyone is a bluepill in the Matrix except you, and the Government sends out Agent Smiths who “silence” dissenting voices. That’s not Britain (yet) - that’s Russia or China.

I don’t trust this government an inch. I don’t much trust Big Pharma either. I trust empiricism - the scientists and the scientific method.

 

[Technics 1210]

Question if you like, but be informed in your questioning. Don’t just assume that everyone is a bluepill in the Matrix except you, and the Government sends out Agent Smiths who “silence” dissenting voices. That’s not Britain (yet) - that’s Russia or China.

I don’t trust this government an inch. I don’t much trust Big Pharma either. I trust empiricism - the scientists and the scientific method.

By the scientific method you mean fast tracking a vaccine, bypassing scientific process, no long term research on side effects? Science itself has been wrong many times, that's why falsification is a tenent of science. If evidence is not open to falsification, it is not deemed scientific.

Sure you trust emprical evidence, but you never witnessed all the covid deaths claimed in the news, you never witnessed the hospitals over flowing with dead bodies/c19 patients; you just watched snippets on TV; so you cannot rule out sensationalism.

I read a vaccine for Malaria was developed recently, how long did that take?

The reality is the public have every right to doubt the government and media reporting - perception is reality. Even long before social media, the TV, papers, radio etc spread misinformation. The only difference now is that people can actually look up the info themselves and make their own mind up.

Still, this doesn't give you the moral right to judge someone who doesn't agree with your stance/viewpoint.

 

[Robert]

Have look at this before it is taken down these are doctors & scientists who know more about viruses, vaccines then me & you or anyone else on this forum does.
https://youtu.be/4IeVy7jQoz0

Ok I watched about half of that. Will watch it all later.

The first thing I noticed is that the film had been edited so the doctors aren’t seen to develop their points, so they appear to talk in sound bites which can be misconstrued - perhaps deliberately so by whoever put the video up.

The second thing is that nobody here is saying don’t vaccinate - they all say do vaccinate, but deploy the vaccines strategically and tactically - not to all kids but only to kids with risk factors - while deploying other measures too.

“Before it is taken down” indeed. I want to see all of it, not this selectively redacted version.

 

[Robert]

By the scientific method you mean fast tracking a vaccine, bypassing scientific process, no long term research on side effects? Science itself has been wrong many times, that's why falsification is a tenent of science. If evidence is not open to falsification, it is not deemed scientific.

Sure you trust emprical evidence, but you never witnessed all the covid deaths claimed in the news, you never witnessed the hospitals over flowing with dead bodies/c19 patients; you just watched snippets on TV; so you cannot rule out sensationalism.

I read a vaccine for Malaria was developed recently, how long did that take?

The reality is the public have every right to doubt the government and media reporting - perception is reality. Even long before social media, the TV, papers, radio etc spread misinformation. The only difference now is that people can actually look up the info themselves and make their own mind up.

Still, this doesn't give you the moral right to judge someone who doesn't agree with your stance/viewpoint.

Scientific process was not bypassed. The final phase in the government ratification of the vaccines was bypassed.

Malaria is a different kettle of fish.

Firstly Europeans and Americans don’t get it much. Whereas over a million of Europeans and Americans have died of COVID cos an emergency situation developed.

Secondly it is a protozoan parasite with several stages in its life cycle. Much more complex than a virus which is very simple. That makes Plasmodium harder to fight than a virus. It can detect the immune response raised against it and make changes to its pellicle to resist attack. It can hole up in your liver for years, and then invade your blood again. Or it can go back into mosquitos and live there for a bit. It doesn’t do any of this on purpose because it is not intelligent, but has various tactics it can deploy to avoid being knocked out by your immune system. Correspondingly a vaccine raised against it has taken a long time to develop.

 

[Stewie]

By the scientific method you mean fast tracking a vaccine, bypassing scientific process, no long term research on side effects? Science itself has been wrong many times, that's why falsification is a tenent of science. If evidence is not open to falsification, it is not deemed scientific.

Sure you trust emprical evidence, but you never witnessed all the covid deaths claimed in the news, you never witnessed the hospitals over flowing with dead bodies/c19 patients; you just watched snippets on TV; so you cannot rule out sensationalism.

I read a vaccine for Malaria was developed recently, how long did that take?

The reality is the public have every right to doubt the government and media reporting - perception is reality. Even long before social media, the TV, papers, radio etc spread misinformation. The only difference now is that people can actually look up the info themselves and make their own mind up.

Still, this doesn't give you the moral right to judge someone who doesn't agree with your stance/viewpoint.

https://wexnermedical.osu.edu/blog/covid-19-vaccine-long-term-side-effects
Please read, Ohio State University is a very reputable research university.
How can you test for long term side effects? Wait 1, 5, 10 years?

I think the article I shared is fairly easy to read and explains it well. The Covid vaccine had to be fast tracked to curtail the alarming death toll. But then again I know some of you will question the veracity of the death toll data. Point is everything about the pandemic is questioned by some people. They just want to poke holes in every single aspect of it. I do not think the debates here really result in anybody convincing anyone. I have never seen anyone concede a point or meet someone even halfway. All we can do is provide a counter argument.

 

[Technics 1210]

Scientific process was not bypassed. The final phase in the government ratification of the vaccines was bypassed.

Malaria is a different kettle of fish.

Firstly Europeans and Americans don’t get it much. Whereas over a million of Europeans and Americans have died of COVID cos an emergency situation developed.

Secondly it is a protozoan parasite with several stages in its life cycle. Much more complex than a virus which is very simple. That makes Plasmodium harder to fight than a virus. It can detect the immune response raised against it and make changes to its pellicle to resist attack. It can hole up in your liver for years, and then invade your blood again. Or it can go back into mosquitos and live there for a bit. It doesn’t do any of this on purpose because it is not intelligent, but has various tactics it can deploy to avoid being knocked out by your immune system. Correspondingly a vaccine raised against it has taken a long time to develop.

You hit the nail on the head - wrt to Malaria, European and Americans aren't affected as much, thus there's no drive for big pharma cos the life of a white man is worth more than people of colour around the world. Then to top it off the Malaria vaccine will be sold at an extortionate price in poor countries while big pharma rake in the Billions. Keeping in mind Malaria has and kills more the C19. This is the moral obligation you refer to?

This is the game in a nutshell. This is why the C19 vaccine was expedited, did bypass normal clinical trials that apply to any other vaccine or medicine and government approval wasn't nessacary - devoid of any long term data simply because the West was under threat.

Google have just announced that anti-vaccine videos will be demonitised on Youtube. Facebook have announced anti vaccine posts will be removed and posters banned. Companies are invoking a no vaccine no work approach. This doesn't sound like the 'people should take the vaccine' approach, but like 'you must take the vaccine or else'.

 

[Stewie]

You hit the nail on the head - wrt to Malaria, European and Americans aren't affected as much, thus there's no drive for big pharma cos the life of a white man is worth more than people of colour around the world. Then to top it off the Malaria vaccine will be sold at an extortionate price in poor countries while big pharma rake in the Billions. Keeping in mind Malaria has and kills more the C19. This is the moral obligation you refer to?

This is the game in a nutshell. This is why the C19 vaccine was expedited, did bypass normal clinical trials that apply to any other vaccine or medicine and government approval wasn't nessacary - devoid of any long term data simply because the West was under threat.

Google have just announced that anti-vaccine videos will be demonitised on Youtube. Facebook have announced anti vaccine posts will be removed and posters banned. Companies are invoking a no vaccine no work approach. This doesn't sound like the 'people should take the vaccine' approach, but like 'you must take the vaccine or else'.

I don’t question what you said, but that’s how it is in the world. Pharmaceutical companies are a business. They are not welfare organizations. Like any business, they identify the need, the market, the scope for business, profits, all that stuff and then formulate their strategy. Every business in the world does that. They may not get much benefit for manufacturing malaria medicine because either the African countries can’t afford it or for whatever other reason don’t want it. I don’t blame the big pharma for that, I think the blame for that rests with neutral, non profit global organizations who are supposed to be managing this sort of stuff and that would be WHO. They should make the case for more investments and production of the malaria medicine and balance it with Covid 19. Typically WHO steps in for countries that cannot afford such initiatives.

I still feel malaria is a third world disease and Covid 19 is a global one, so some of the preferential treatment Covid 19 vaccine got over malaria is justified but overall I think a better balance should have been struck.

 

[Robert]

You hit the nail on the head - wrt to Malaria, European and Americans aren't affected as much, thus there's no drive for big pharma cos the life of a white man is worth more than people of colour around the world. Then to top it off the Malaria vaccine will be sold at an extortionate price in poor countries while big pharma rake in the Billions. Keeping in mind Malaria has and kills more the C19. This is the moral obligation you refer to?

This is the game in a nutshell. This is why the C19 vaccine was expedited, did bypass normal clinical trials that apply to any other vaccine or medicine and government approval wasn't nessacary - devoid of any long term data simply because the West was under threat.

Google have just announced that anti-vaccine videos will be demonitised on Youtube. Facebook have announced anti vaccine posts will be removed and posters banned. Companies are invoking a no vaccine no work approach. This doesn't sound like the 'people should take the vaccine' approach, but like 'you must take the vaccine or else'.

Yes of course “The West” has a moral obligation to eradicate malaria. WHO has averted 1.5 billion cases of malaria this century. Ways to do this include cutting back vegetation from the banks of slow moving bodies of water, and providing insecticide-treated bed nets.

In fact malaria has not killed as many people as COVID - the death toll for the virus this year is ten times that of malaria.

As for anti vax posts, tech giants have a responsibility not to be a vector for disinformation that results in people dying. Note that Khan-92’s YouTube video posted above is not anti vax - it is largely pro fax - though it has been edited in such a way to appear to have an anti vax message.

 

[khan-92]

Ok I watched about half of that. Will watch it all later.

The first thing I noticed is that the film had been edited so the doctors aren’t seen to develop their points, so they appear to talk in sound bites which can be misconstrued - perhaps deliberately so by whoever put the video up.

The second thing is that nobody here is saying don’t vaccinate - they all say do vaccinate, but deploy the vaccines strategically and tactically - not to all kids but only to kids with risk factors - while deploying other measures too.

“Before it is taken down” indeed. I want to see all of it, not this selectively redacted version.

Yes your right don't know why they edited it.
Also if you watch videos of Dr Peters Mccllough very insightful.

 

[Technics 1210]

Yes of course “The West” has a moral obligation to eradicate malaria. WHO has averted 1.5 billion cases of malaria this century. Ways to do this include cutting back vegetation from the banks of slow moving bodies of water, and providing insecticide-treated bed nets.

In fact malaria has not killed as many people as COVID - the death toll for the virus this year is ten times that of malaria.

As for anti vax posts, tech giants have a responsibility not to be a vector for disinformation that results in people dying. Note that Khan-92’s YouTube video posted above is not anti vax - it is largely pro fax - though it has been edited in such a way to appear to have an anti vax message.

Historically Malaria has killed more than C19, but this shouldn't matter, because the life in West only matters to big pharma. Pigeon holing for past year death stats doesn't change this fact.

On the point of editing, you do realise every report is edited in MSM for effect/message?

If you support tech giants in suppressing free thinking, then you support the tech totalitarian model.

The only moral in the west is profit.

 

[Dr_Bassim]

Interesting viewpoints by many people.
[MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] I am curious. Are you against vaccines in general or just the Covid 19 vaccine?

@Technics1210 A lot of mainstream pharmaceutical stuff is for profit and off course vaccines would be created if there was some profit for the mainstream pharmaceutical companies. I don't understand why ANYONE should play the LOVE HUMANITY card when the entire world works on principle of give and take?

You claim that pharma companies are only interested in profit and for sustainability of the West. How is that not different from you ONLY CARING about the success of YOUR FAMILY AND CHILDREN and not worried about how the neighbors are getting on (besides the religious perspective of polite inquiry).

Self righteousness is never correct, because we are all part of the same game.

Pharma companies and West might do it blatantly. We do it subtly in the comfort of our own homes.

If money doesn't matter, I suggest you start working for free and not claim a cent and try to live your life. Wonder how far that takes you.



My vaccination opinion.

It doesn't matter what the vaccine does or doesn't do. A jab won't kill you. If it does, you were about to die anyways.
[MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION] The only question is "if many people get vaccinated" herd immunity will set it in and if "some people choose not to get vaccinated" the "herd immunity will be enough. So let the people who are against Covid 19 vaccine live in peace because they won't harm IF ENOUGH PEOPLE get vaccinated.


The second point is very soon "airlines/countries will make it mandatory for vaccination to happen to enter other countries or visit "places of privilege".

Unless most people choose to stay in their homes and waste their lives in anger and indignation against a useful/useless jab, they WILL HAVE TO GET VACCINATED.

Personally, I don't see what the hullabaloo is.

If you feel vaccine is good for you, take it.

If you feel the vaccine is a Western/Zionist conspiracy rendered to make you infertile (or any other favorite excuse here) don't take it.

No one will force you to take the vaccine unless you love travelling, visit vaccine mandatory places or are applying for asylum/immigration.

 

[Stewie]

Interesting viewpoints by many people.
[MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] I am curious. Are you against vaccines in general or just the Covid 19 vaccine?

@Technics1210 A lot of mainstream pharmaceutical stuff is for profit and off course vaccines would be created if there was some profit for the mainstream pharmaceutical companies. I don't understand why ANYONE should play the LOVE HUMANITY card when the entire world works on principle of give and take?

You claim that pharma companies are only interested in profit and for sustainability of the West. How is that not different from you ONLY CARING about the success of YOUR FAMILY AND CHILDREN and not worried about how the neighbors are getting on (besides the religious perspective of polite inquiry).

Self righteousness is never correct, because we are all part of the same game.

Pharma companies and West might do it blatantly. We do it subtly in the comfort of our own homes.

If money doesn't matter, I suggest you start working for free and not claim a cent and try to live your life. Wonder how far that takes you.



My vaccination opinion.

It doesn't matter what the vaccine does or doesn't do. A jab won't kill you. If it does, you were about to die anyways.
[MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION] The only question is "if many people get vaccinated" herd immunity will set it in and if "some people choose not to get vaccinated" the "herd immunity will be enough. So let the people who are against Covid 19 vaccine live in peace because they won't harm IF ENOUGH PEOPLE get vaccinated.


The second point is very soon "airlines/countries will make it mandatory for vaccination to happen to enter other countries or visit "places of privilege".

Unless most people choose to stay in their homes and waste their lives in anger and indignation against a useful/useless jab, they WILL HAVE TO GET VACCINATED.

Personally, I don't see what the hullabaloo is.

If you feel vaccine is good for you, take it.

If you feel the vaccine is a Western/Zionist conspiracy rendered to make you infertile (or any other favorite excuse here) don't take it.

No one will force you to take the vaccine unless you love travelling, visit vaccine mandatory places or are applying for asylum/immigration.

Except, you see a lot of justification from anti vaxxers here using propaganda materials/ falsehoods/false stats/fringe experts/conspiracy theories which do nothing but spread disinformation to other neutral members here. I think it’s a dangerous game. Doesn’t keep us objective, IMO.

But I agree with the point of leaving them be.. you can’t force everyone or anyone to get vaccinated. And you shouldn’t!

 

[KingKhanWC]

Interestingly you have avoided all my technical questions about basic immunology. Ok, so you don’t understand immunology and rely on the “known experts” - but they say take the vaccine! So you ignore them instead because they don’t agree with you. What you do is find a piece of research and quote part of it out of context. You do not seek advice, you seek to confirm your own bias.

1. When you say “a cure” what do you mean? Viruses have no cure, except our own immune systems - which are boosted by the vaccine to save lives.

The process of research into treatment would be exactly the same for a naturally mutating or genetically modified virus.

Again, how do we hold scientists in a closed authoritarian society accountable? The PRC will deny culpability forever, and even if they own up then what could you actually do? Ask then to pay for the burials of the five million COVID victims?

2. You just keep repeating the same point, so I will too. What you mean by “natural immunity” is in operational terms the Do Nothing Option. Doing nothing and letting the virus rip (as Johnson put it) would have killed another million Britons before the rest worked up “natural immunity”.

Let me ask you a question. What would you have done about smallpox - do nothing and let the world build up “natural immunity”? What would happen?

And another - what would you do about malaria - wait for the world to build up “natural immunity”?

Known experts are not stating take the vaccine. On the contrary the worlds most expert virologist warned vaccines for such a viral infection is madness, as it will cause many variants. Id rather follow people known who have a long history of expertise than someone I don't know.

1. A cure to relieve symptoms. There are many drugs which seem to work well but the health authorities are staying clear because they want everyone to take the vaccine.

According to the Telegraph, leaked documents filed with the US Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA), show an international team of scientists were planning to grow a new virus by combining the genetic material of various other strains.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/scie...cientists-create-new-virus-darpa-covid-latest

You may be happy ignoring this but people have a right to question it. It will also help to find more effective medicines, if these people bother to tell the truth.

2. If you bother to read the research link I posted earlier, I wouldn't need to repeat myself. Please explain why the Israeli report which suggests natural immunity is over 20 x better than a vaccine is wrong. While you're at it, explain the many others too.

There are plenty of diseases in the past where vaccines were thought to be less effective than natural immunity. Surprised you don't know this being an expert in the field.

The bottom line is NO SANE person should advise, pressure others into injecting anything into their body or taking any form of medication, unless you are their doctor. You cant come on the internet and start spouting to others to take a vaccine. You don't know them let alone their medical history. Such people are brainwashed by the mainstream imo.

I don't care if anyone takes or doesn't take the vaccine, its their choice. When people start respecting ones choice, those people will then get respect back.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Interesting viewpoints by many people. [MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] I am curious. Are you against vaccines in general or just the Covid 19 vaccine?

The term antivaxxer is idiotic at best. Im not against any vaccine or any form of medicine if it works and is better than what he body naturally produces. In this case, these vaccines are being used have not gone through the tests but rushed through. They don't stop you from getting the virus, don't stop you from passing it on and could even kill you, as many have died around the world.

 

[Stewie]

Sure, let’s start putting our belief in a conspiracy theory loving media outlet. You bash others for believing CNN, BBC, etc and yet you are citing Express .. truly a face palm moment!

 

[KingKhanWC]

Sure, let’s start putting our belief in a conspiracy theory loving media outlet. You bash others for believing CNN, BBC, etc and yet you are citing Express .. truly a face palm moment!

I have no interest in discussing this with a clown like yourself. The content is key in the report, dozens of others are reporting the same. My advise is DO NOT advise or pressure others to inject anything into their bodies, you don't know their medical history. Stick to whinging to your family. I wont be replying to you on this thread again because you're boring me.