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Younis Khan vs Virender Sehwag - Who was the better Test batter?

It is indeed an interesting comparison. Two highly impactful players as far as Asian conditions are concerned but had issues against swing and seam and never looked half as good outside Asia as they are in the subcontinent.

However, I believe that the gap between them is clearly bigger outside Asia( YK averages 50 in England and Australia and 40+ in NZ).

Statistically, outside Asia:-

YK averages 39 against Aus, NZ, SA, WI and Eng.

Sehwag averages 35 against Aus, SA, Eng, NZ and WI.

However, things will be different if we exclude WI( YK averages 22, Sehwag averages 51) but it is a place where YK struggled heavily rather than calling it as "missing out on soft runs" as WI were minnows in the latter half of their career.

Personally, I will pick Younis beacuse although he was slightly inferior to Sehwag in Asia but clearly better than him outside Asia(stressing on their WI performance slightly only) and also had a longer career than him in a weaker side.
 
In Asia. And even then if you have a strong batting line up to follow


To be honest I didn’t watch later half of YK’s career and when I used to follow Pakistani cricket he was overshadowed by Yousuf and Inzi..

Regarding the reasoning I would say first of all it’s difficult to compare and opener with a middle order bat so this whole comprison isn’t the beatbox to start with..

Regardless if you look st Sehwag he was best at one thing that was bashing attacks in batting friendly conditions and Making a huge impact.. He wasn’t a total dud against moving ball as some people here are suggesting he has some good performances in NZ, SA iirc..

YK was never the best at anything in his role there are a lot of better middle order batsmen throughout who would rank above YK in some aspect or the other of the game..

That is why I would choose Sehwag atleast he’s best ever in something and it’s easier to find better middle order bats than YK but no one is a better destructive opener than Sehwag on favourable pitches in history of test matches..

YK might be the better batsman but I don’t know since I didn’t follow the latter half of his career and in early part he was downright mediocre..
 
To be honest I didn’t watch later half of YK’s career and when I used to follow Pakistani cricket he was overshadowed by Yousuf and Inzi..

Regarding the reasoning I would say first of all it’s difficult to compare and opener with a middle order bat so this whole comprison isn’t the beatbox to start with..

Regardless if you look st Sehwag he was best at one thing that was bashing attacks in batting friendly conditions and Making a huge impact.. He wasn’t a total dud against moving ball as some people here are suggesting he has some good performances in NZ, SA iirc..

YK was never the best at anything in his role there are a lot of better middle order batsmen throughout who would rank above YK in some aspect or the other of the game..

That is why I would choose Sehwag atleast he’s best ever in something and it’s easier to find better middle order bats than YK but no one is a better destructive opener than Sehwag on favourable pitches in history of test matches..

YK might be the better batsman but I don’t know since I didn’t follow the latter half of his career and in early part he was downright mediocre..

So which early part of his career was this?

When he made a 149* and 91 in Auckland 2001 Test in good bowling conditions to give Pak a win when most batsmen from both teams went missing. Or 267 and 84* in Bangalore Test? Or the home centuries?

He was outshone by Inzi and Yousuf (in a 2 yr period) but that doesnt make him 'downright mediocre'. Thats like saying Dravid was mediocre when Sachin outshone him. However an average in 20s in England, NZ, SA over the course of his career does make a batsman 'downright mediocre' in testing conditions
 
Yes. I'll take Sehwag if my middle order consists of Sachin, Dravid, Laxman and Ganguly.

If my batting lineup overall is not as good or I dont know their combination - its YK everyday
 
Why would that make it interesting? Are the runs scored in first innings discounted?

Matches are won or saved in 4th innings. Shows grit, winner mentality and fighting capabilities.

Obv first or second or third innings runs aret discounted
 
Matches are won or saved in 4th innings. Shows grit, winner mentality and fighting capabilities.

Obv first or second or third innings runs aret discounted

Most matches are won or lost in 1/2nd inning.
 
Matches are won or saved in 4th innings. Shows grit, winner mentality and fighting capabilities.

Obv first or second or third innings runs aret discounted

90% of the tests i have seen have been decided in the first two innings. Take the recently concluded SA vs Aus as an example.
 
It is indeed an interesting comparison. Two highly impactful players as far as Asian conditions are concerned but had issues against swing and seam and never looked half as good outside Asia as they are in the subcontinent.

However, I believe that the gap between them is clearly bigger outside Asia( YK averages 50 in England and Australia and 40+ in NZ).

Statistically, outside Asia:-

YK averages 39 against Aus, NZ, SA, WI and Eng.

Sehwag averages 35 against Aus, SA, Eng, NZ and WI.

However, things will be different if we exclude WI( <B>YK averages 22 in WI, Sehwag averages 51 in WI</B>) but it is a place where YK struggled heavily rather than calling it as "missing out on soft runs" as WI were minnows in the latter half of their career.

Personally, I will pick Younis beacuse although he was slightly inferior to Sehwag in Asia but clearly better than him outside Asia(stressing on their WI performance slightly only) and also had a longer career than him in a weaker side.

#Correction
 
Most matches are won or lost in 1/2nd inning.

they are literally won or saved in the last innings

obv the 1st/2nd innings determine the tempo of the mathc but last innings pressure is the most generally
 
they are literally won or saved in the last innings

obv the 1st/2nd innings determine the tempo of the mathc but last innings pressure is the most generally

Last inning may be more memorable and 1/2nd innings may look like run of the mill knocks, but result of majority of matches are pretty much sealed by the end of 1/2nd inning. Some one even did a calculation once in PP, I don't recall the thread. Off course , it's still subjective. I can personally accurately predict result of 80% of matches at the end of 1/2nd inning.

I personally think that 4th inning alone doesn't really tell you anything about player. I neither consider IK as a poor pressure player due to having bowling average of 40+ in 4th inning nor consider YK a good pressure player due to having good 4th inning batting average. I take their entire career and then see if they really upped their game in hostile environment. IK performing against the best team in their den is 10 times more important to me that his 4th inning bowling average of 42.

It's not that 4th inning is useless, but not that meaningful to really decide if player is upping his game in pressure situations.
 
Like a poster said, if I have a good batting line up, I'll pick Sehwag without thinking twice. But if I have a weak batting line up, I'll definitely go for Younis Khan. While Sehwag was infinitely more destructive than Younis Khan, Younis Khhan was equally more reliable compared than Sehwag in alien conditions.
 
Like a poster said, if I have a good batting line up, I'll pick Sehwag without thinking twice. But if I have a weak batting line up, I'll definitely go for Younis Khan. While Sehwag was infinitely more destructive than Younis Khan, Younis Khhan was equally more reliable compared than Sehwag in alien conditions.


Fully agreed
 
So which early part of his career was this?

When he made a 149* and 91 in Auckland 2001 Test in good bowling conditions to give Pak a win when most batsmen from both teams went missing. Or 267 and 84* in Bangalore Test? Or the home centuries?

He was outshone by Inzi and Yousuf (in a 2 yr period) but that doesnt make him 'downright mediocre'. Thats like saying Dravid was mediocre when Sachin outshone him. However an average in 20s in England, NZ, SA over the course of his career does make a batsman 'downright mediocre' in testing conditions


I watched cricket till 2007 WC.. So till then he was outshone by Inzi and Yousuf.. I am not saying he didn’t have good innings but from what I remember of that time he came across as a mediocre batsmen it was probably more to do with his style of batting(technique) than his effectiveness..

If you look at his overall career he has achieved more than any other Pakistani batsmen in history so obviously he is a great bat but just doesn’t seem an ATG or GOAT because of the way he bats/technique even though he might be more effective than players with better technique like Yousuf/inzi..
 
Yes. I'll take Sehwag if my middle order consists of Sachin, Dravid, Laxman and Ganguly.

If my batting lineup overall is not as good or I dont know their combination - its YK everyday


Fair enough if the middle order is weak any sensible person would choose YK as he a solid middle order bat and if you don’t have first tier of middle order bats then YK is one of the best options from the second tier..
 
Some interesting stats,

SL team since 2006 have averaged the most among all teams in 4th inning.

4th inning average 33.90. SL all innings average in the same period is 34.70

Now based on this we can't say that SL is the best team under pressure. There are lots of factors making it possible to have this stats for SL team. Initially I though BD is making it possible due to playing BD often, but SL is still the highest 4th inning team excluding BD/Zim. SL is still scoring around the same as their over all average. Based on this stat, I am not going to say that SL is the best team under pressure.

I will simply look if SL has been upping their games in crunch times to change the match. If they do it then they are good pressure team. SL having the highest 4th inning average, IK having the bowling average of 42 in 4th inning or YK having a good 4th inning average in isolation is not an indicator of being good or poor under pressure. It does carry some weight, but not a whole lot.
 
YK easily. 34 centuries in 118 matches vs 23 centuries in 104. No comparison at all.

Performances of note outside Asia for both:-

YK:- (4)

Auckland 2001
Headingley 2006
Oval 2016
Sydney 2016

Sehwag:-(2)

Melbourne 2003
Adelaide 2007

Outside Asia also, YK wins again.
 
Some interesting stats,

SL team since 2006 have averaged the most among all teams in 4th inning.

4th inning average 33.90. SL all innings average in the same period is 34.70

Now based on this we can't say that SL is the best team under pressure. There are lots of factors making it possible to have this stats for SL team. Initially I though BD is making it possible due to playing BD often, but SL is still the highest 4th inning team excluding BD/Zim. SL is still scoring around the same as their over all average. Based on this stat, I am not going to say that SL is the best team under pressure.

I will simply look if SL has been upping their games in crunch times to change the match. If they do it then they are good pressure team. SL having the highest 4th inning average, IK having the bowling average of 42 in 4th inning or YK having a good 4th inning average in isolation is not an indicator of being good or poor under pressure. It does carry some weight, but not a whole lot.

Spot on. Batsmen who set the match up will always be more valuable than those who come out to firefight later. There's a bit of romance attached to the whole boy on the burning deck act, but the game itself is structured for dominant batsmen who set the match up up-front. Dhoni and Bevan have their value but it's Sachin and Virat who influence the game the most.
 
It is indeed an interesting comparison. Two highly impactful players as far as Asian conditions are concerned but had issues against swing and seam and never looked half as good outside Asia as they are in the subcontinent.

However, I believe that the gap between them is clearly bigger outside Asia( YK averages 50 in England and Australia and 40+ in NZ).

Statistically, outside Asia:-

YK averages 39 against Aus, NZ, SA, WI and Eng.

Sehwag averages 35 against Aus, SA, Eng, NZ and WI.


However, things will be different if we exclude WI( YK averages 22, Sehwag averages 51) but it is a place where YK struggled heavily rather than calling it as "missing out on soft runs" as WI were minnows in the latter half of their career.

Personally, I will pick Younis beacuse although he was slightly inferior to Sehwag in Asia but clearly better than him outside Asia(stressing on their WI performance slightly only) and also had a longer career than him in a weaker side.

A lot is lost in this aggregation. Let's look at it most closely.

YK Averages Away: in AUS (1 100s): 50, Eng (2 100s): 50, NZ 43 (1 100), SL 44 (3 100) Ind 76 (3 100s) SAF 35 (1 100) WI 27 (1 100) ZIM 73 (1 100) BAN 100 (3 100)

SHW Averages Away: in AUS 46 (3 100s): Eng: 27 (1 100) NZ 25 (0 100s)(0 100) SL 95 (3 100s) Pak 91 ( 3 100) SAF 25 (1 100)
WI 51 ( 1 100) ZIm 51 ( 0 100) BAN 35 (0 100)

Some myths are deflated here

Sehwag was not unequivocally better than YK in Asia; he was better and more destructive than YK in SL but much worse in than YK in BAN.
At home, YK was better than SHW, average- wise, YK 59 Pak, 55 UAE, vs SHW Ind 54, though SHW was more destructive. Both were destructive when playing against their fiercest rival, Pak/Ind.

But more importantly, not only was YK much better than Sehwag in ENG, NZ, and SAF; in ENG and NZ Sehwag did not even merit selection; (in SAF at least he scored one splendid century, but was in this sense no better than Azhar Mahmoud.)

No selector with any smarts would have picked Sehwag to open in these countries, regardless of whether the middle order is an ATG lineup of Sachins and Dravids. Not only does he not make an World ATG XI lineup for SAF, ENG, and NZ, (and BAN) he would struggle to fit into the 10th best such lineup for these countries.

One then has to ask; yes, he would be selected for Tests in India, Pak, SL, perhaps also AUS. But if the task at hand is to open in Asia, there are plenty of players who can do a very good job. A player has lowly as Hafeez averaged 52 in the UAE, with plenty of fast daddy centuries to his credit. Would one really pick Sehwag for that possible extra oomph up front, rather than have YK in the 4th innings on a wearing pitch? Which moments are likely to be more decisive, in these conditions?

YK was a far less limited player than Sehwag in ways that have not been acknowledged on this thread. He scored a 100 in every country he played in, including WI, where he otherwise performed relatively poorly. He may not have been a first choice for a World's XI, but he would be in the second XI selected. And, going to the question at hand: in all of these countries: SAF, ENG, NZ, BAN, ie half the world, YK, was a far far better batsman than Sehwag.

As importantly, in terms of actual performances over time, Sehwag's era of dominance was much more short lived than YK, as one would expect of someone who relied on hand eye coordination (though he was also a thinking cricketer no doubt). Sehwag was a shadow of himself in his last years, when he retired it had been 3 years since his last overseas century, and that came in SL. While continuing to pile no runs at home for some time, during those years he averaged 31, 29 and 9 at home and away combined.

By comparison YK played some of his most memorable knocks in his last years, including a memorable chase in SL, a century in Aus and a series levelling 200 in his last tour in Eng. In his last three years he averaged 66, 37 and 44. So the stats actually underplay how vast was the difference between the players as they became older:

In the last 5 years of their careers.

Sehwag, Ave away 38, 3 100s; Ave home 48, 7 100s
YK Ave away: 51, 7 100s Ave home/neutral 62 7 100s

So yes, Sehwag when on a song, during a limited period of his career, was a more destructive batsman, in certain countries, and could take games away from the opposition, in certain countries, but without taking anythig away from him, or accusing him of being a flat track bully, he is in retrospect remembered a tad too glowing for his impact; for the same reason as Afridi and Akthar were overvalued, in the former case dramatically so. (This is not to compare them, as players) They played cricket with a bang, but also went bust plenty of times.

Yet in Tests, quickness of scoring is not always the most important matter. YK too took the match away from the opposition plenty of times, in several memorable moments. And when at his best, did so more prolifically and consistently than Sehwag. Across his career, YK had a 28% likelihood of scoring a century during a match, one of the highest in history, compared for instance to 25% for Sachin, and 22 for Sehwag. YK's highest average for any calendar year is 85, Sehwag's 70.

In addition to that, YK could be counted on to score in a range of different countries, across his entire career, in all moments of a game. We know of his 4th innings exploits; he has the highest 4th innings average in the modern era of cricket, having scored 12 centuries in the second innings. Sehwag scored only one second innings century in his entire career. Which makes it not so much a question of whether a player is able to score "under pressure" to me - but a matter of downright liability.

And then to the most telling stat. Both batsmen were at one point in their career ranked No 1 by the ICC. But Sehwag's highest rating is 774, Younis' was 880. Sehwag in his pomp may have awed us like few others, but there is no question that across their careers, YK was the better Test batsmen, overall.
 
Spot on. Batsmen who set the match up will always be more valuable than those who come out to firefight later. There's a bit of romance attached to the whole boy on the burning deck act, but the game itself is structured for dominant batsmen who set the match up up-front. Dhoni and Bevan have their value but it's Sachin and Virat who influence the game the most.

The fact that you are talking about Dhoni and Bevan would confirm that you are applying ODI standards to what is a debate about Test batsmanship. And I think that also helps explain, in some small but not insignificant measure, why Sehwag is remembered so fondly; he brought a fast and exciting ODI game to the Test arena. Though an ODI game is not always necessary, and may in many instances be detrimental, in that Test arena. Middle order batting in Test cricket is not about firefighting. Very often, the 4th innings, every result is still possible.
 
It is indeed an interesting comparison. Two highly impactful players as far as Asian conditions are concerned but had issues against swing and seam and never looked half as good outside Asia as they are in the subcontinent.

However, I believe that the gap between them is clearly bigger outside Asia( YK averages 50 in England and Australia and 40+ in NZ).

Statistically, outside Asia:-

YK averages 39 against Aus, NZ, SA, WI and Eng.

Sehwag averages 35 against Aus, SA, Eng, NZ and WI.

However, things will be different if we exclude WI( YK averages 22, Sehwag averages 51) but it is a place where YK struggled heavily rather than calling it as "missing out on soft runs" as WI were minnows in the latter half of their career.

Personally, I will pick Younis beacuse although he was slightly inferior to Sehwag in Asia but clearly better than him outside Asia(stressing on their WI performance slightly only) and also had a longer career than him in a weaker side.

I forgot to make note of this: The WI stat is a complete red herring in this debate, also because it leaves out some other juicy red herrings. Sehwag was similarly inexplicably poor in BAN, but at least YK managed to score a century in WI, once.
 
A lot is lost in this aggregation. Let's look at it most closely.

YK Averages Away: in AUS (1 100s): 50, Eng (2 100s): 50, NZ 43 (1 100), SL 44 (3 100) Ind 76 (3 100s) SAF 35 (1 100) WI 27 (1 100) ZIM 73 (1 100) BAN 100 (3 100)

SHW Averages Away: in AUS 46 (3 100s): Eng: 27 (1 100) NZ 25 (0 100s)(0 100) SL 95 (3 100s) Pak 91 ( 3 100) SAF 25 (1 100)
WI 51 ( 1 100) ZIm 51 ( 0 100) BAN 35 (0 100)

Some myths are deflated here

Sehwag was not unequivocally better than YK in Asia; he was better and more destructive than YK in SL but much worse in than YK in BAN.
At home, YK was better than SHW, average- wise, YK 59 Pak, 55 UAE, vs SHW Ind 54, though SHW was more destructive. Both were destructive when playing against their fiercest rival, Pak/Ind.

But more importantly, not only was YK much better than Sehwag in ENG, NZ, and SAF; in ENG and NZ Sehwag did not even merit selection; (in SAF at least he scored one splendid century, but was in this sense no better than Azhar Mahmoud.)

No selector with any smarts would have picked Sehwag to open in these countries, regardless of whether the middle order is an ATG lineup of Sachins and Dravids. Not only does he not make an World ATG XI lineup for SAF, ENG, and NZ, (and BAN) he would struggle to fit into the 10th best such lineup for these countries.

One then has to ask; yes, he would be selected for Tests in India, Pak, SL, perhaps also AUS. But if the task at hand is to open in Asia, there are plenty of players who can do a very good job. A player has lowly as Hafeez averaged 52 in the UAE, with plenty of fast daddy centuries to his credit. Would one really pick Sehwag for that possible extra oomph up front, rather than have YK in the 4th innings on a wearing pitch? Which moments are likely to be more decisive, in these conditions?

YK was a far less limited player than Sehwag in ways that have not been acknowledged on this thread. He scored a 100 in every country he played in, including WI, where he otherwise performed relatively poorly. He may not have been a first choice for a World's XI, but he would be in the second XI selected. And, going to the question at hand: in all of these countries: SAF, ENG, NZ, BAN, ie half the world, YK, was a far far better batsman than Sehwag.

As importantly, in terms of actual performances over time, Sehwag's era of dominance was much more short lived than YK, as one would expect of someone who relied on hand eye coordination (though he was also a thinking cricketer no doubt). Sehwag was a shadow of himself in his last years, when he retired it had been 3 years since his last overseas century, and that came in SL. While continuing to pile no runs at home for some time, during those years he averaged 31, 29 and 9 at home and away combined.

By comparison YK played some of his most memorable knocks in his last years, including a memorable chase in SL, a century in Aus and a series levelling 200 in his last tour in Eng. In his last three years he averaged 66, 37 and 44. So the stats actually underplay how vast was the difference between the players as they became older:

In the last 5 years of their careers.

Sehwag, Ave away 38, 3 100s; Ave home 48, 7 100s
YK Ave away: 51, 7 100s Ave home/neutral 62 7 100s

So yes, Sehwag when on a song, during a limited period of his career, was a more destructive batsman, in certain countries, and could take games away from the opposition, in certain countries, but without taking anythig away from him, or accusing him of being a flat track bully, he is in retrospect remembered a tad too glowing for his impact; for the same reason as Afridi and Akthar were overvalued, in the former case dramatically so. (This is not to compare them, as players) They played cricket with a bang, but also went bust plenty of times.

Yet in Tests, quickness of scoring is not always the most important matter. YK too took the match away from the opposition plenty of times, in several memorable moments. And when at his best, did so more prolifically and consistently than Sehwag. Across his career, YK had a 28% likelihood of scoring a century during a match, one of the highest in history, compared for instance to 25% for Sachin, and 22 for Sehwag. YK's highest average for any calendar year is 85, Sehwag's 70.

In addition to that, YK could be counted on to score in a range of different countries, across his entire career, in all moments of a game. We know of his 4th innings exploits; he has the highest 4th innings average in the modern era of cricket, having scored 12 centuries in the second innings. Sehwag scored only one second innings century in his entire career. Which makes it not so much a question of whether a player is able to score "under pressure" to me - but a matter of downright liability.

And then to the most telling stat. Both batsmen were at one point in their career ranked No 1 by the ICC. But Sehwag's highest rating is 774, Younis' was 880. Sehwag in his pomp may have awed us like few others, but there is no question that across their careers, YK was the better Test batsmen, overall.

I dont think you can put failures against Ban and Zim in any case of seriousness as they were minnows during Sehwag's whole career and Sehwag was unlucky to miss out on those chances.

Also scoring fast matters in test cricket. On flat pitches if you bat like Pujara, you may be able to save your team from a loss but there will be several instances where your slow batting could cost your team a won match.

Sehwag used to score at such a fast rate and set a huge total in less time upfront which allows the bowlers enough time to get 20 wickets and the chances of opposition getting crumbled due to scoreboard pressure becomes very high.

If you recall a match in Chennai 2008 between India and England, India were in a position where they had to chase 387 runs in 1 day+2 hr time and the chances of saving that match was very minimal. In such situations, Sehwag opened the inning and scored a destructive game changing 89 off 68 balls that day itself giving India a whole lot of chance to win that match. Many of his big knocks in Asia were of very high value. He would score big and also give enough time for bowlers to win that match.

My only issue with Sehwag was that when he was failing consecutively in swinging and seaming conditions of Eng, NZ and SA, he never tried to grind out and change his game and would rather throw his wicket playing reckless shot with no foot movement at all. He also has a slightly lower number of hundreds(23) which is good but still you expect more from a top order bat who obviously will get slightly more chance of scoring a 100 than a middle order.
 
I dont think you can put failures against Ban and Zim in any case of seriousness as they were minnows during Sehwag's whole career and Sehwag was unlucky to miss out on those chances.

Also scoring fast matters in test cricket. On flat pitches if you bat like Pujara, you may be able to save your team from a loss but there will be several instances where your slow batting could cost your team a won match.

Sehwag used to score at such a fast rate and set a huge total in less time upfront which allows the bowlers enough time to get 20 wickets and the chances of opposition getting crumbled due to scoreboard pressure becomes very high.

If you recall a match in Chennai 2008 between India and England, India were in a position where they had to chase 387 runs in 1 day+2 hr time and the chances of saving that match was very minimal. In such situations, Sehwag opened the inning and scored a destructive game changing 89 off 68 balls that day itself giving India a whole lot of chance to win that match. Many of his big knocks in Asia were of very high value. He would score big and also give enough time for bowlers to win that match.

My only issue with Sehwag was that when he was failing consecutively in swinging and seaming conditions of Eng, NZ and SA, he never tried to grind out and change his game and would rather throw his wicket playing reckless shot with no foot movement at all. He also has a slightly lower number of hundreds(23) which is good but still you expect more from a top order bat who obviously will get slightly more chance of scoring a 100 than a middle order.

YK has 34 Test centuries. Sehwag has 23. That's a big difference.
 
I forgot to make note of this: The WI stat is a complete red herring in this debate, also because it leaves out some other juicy red herrings. Sehwag was similarly inexplicably poor in BAN, but at least YK managed to score a century in WI, once.

WI had Ambrose and Walsh whom Younis faced during his early days and batted like a tailender against them.

Bangladesh were absolutely nothing test side during Sehwag's career and scoring against them is irrelevant as so many people talk or accuse players of minnow bashing. They became a decent side only in last 3 years.
 
I dont think you can put failures against Ban and Zim in any case of seriousness as they were minnows during Sehwag's whole career and Sehwag was unlucky to miss out on those chances.

Also scoring fast matters in test cricket. On flat pitches if you bat like Pujara, you may be able to save your team from a loss but there will be several instances where your slow batting could cost your team a won match.

Sehwag used to score at such a fast rate and set a huge total in less time upfront which allows the bowlers enough time to get 20 wickets and the chances of opposition getting crumbled due to scoreboard pressure becomes very high.

If you recall a match in Chennai 2008 between India and England, India were in a position where they had to chase 387 runs in 1 day+2 hr time and the chances of saving that match was very minimal. In such situations, Sehwag opened the inning and scored a destructive game changing 89 off 68 balls that day itself giving India a whole lot of chance to win that match. Many of his big knocks in Asia were of very high value. He would score big and also give enough time for bowlers to win that match.

My only issue with Sehwag was that when he was failing consecutively in swinging and seaming conditions of Eng, NZ and SA, he never tried to grind out and change his game and would rather throw his wicket playing reckless shot with no foot movement at all. He also has a slightly lower number of hundreds(23) which is good but still you expect more from a top order bat who obviously will get slightly more chance of scoring a 100 than a middle order.

Sure, Ban and Zim don't matter very much, I agree. Though it is not clear why they matter so much less than Win, fairly weird to imagine they don't count anything at all, and surely worth noting that one of them is also in Asia.

But this is why I focused on SAF, NZ, ENG.

Overall I don't think anything you say actually contradicts what I said. Yes, of course scoring fast can be important in a Test match. But you didn't counter my argument, which is that in Tests, scoring fast may not always be the most important thing, and is certainly not by any stretch of the imagination, the only important thing..

I also think that in the Sehwag debate, the SR factor gets overplayed. Sehwag was great first and foremost because he actually scored very consistently. .22 is an excellent good 100/Matches ration. As for speed, if you look at someone like Hayden, who was a better overall batsman than Sehwag, but not as fast scoring, Hayden would have taken 3+ overs more than Sehwag to get a hundred, on average. Someone like Slater would take 5 overs more. Not in and of itself always a big deal over the course of a 5 day, 450 over match.

Overall, if one puts aside the emotional impact factor, hard facts bear out the assertion that both were great players, Sehwag a more special, and revolutionary one, in his style of play, but that Younis was a better Test batsman, in his ability to do well, in more countries, over a longer period time, at different parts of a match, in critical moments of series, and in so far as in the moment when each player were at their peak, YK was putting more runs on the board per year, and had a higher ICC rating, than Sehwag.
 
Sure, Ban and Zim don't matter very much, I agree. Though it is not clear why they matter so much less than Win, fairly weird to imagine they don't count anything at all, and surely worth noting that one of them is also in Asia.

But this is why I focused on SAF, NZ, ENG.

Overall I don't think anything you say actually contradicts what I said. Yes, of course scoring fast can be important in a Test match. But you didn't counter my argument, which is that in Tests, scoring fast may not always be the most important thing, and is certainly not by any stretch of the imagination, the only important thing..

I also think that in the Sehwag debate, the SR factor gets overplayed. Sehwag was great first and foremost because he actually scored very consistently. .22 is an excellent good 100/Matches ration. As for speed, if you look at someone like Hayden, who was a better overall batsman than Sehwag, but not as fast scoring, Hayden would have taken 3+ overs more than Sehwag to get a hundred, on average. Someone like Slater would take 5 overs more. Not in and of itself always a big deal over the course of a 5 day, 450 over match.

Overall, if one puts aside the emotional impact factor, hard facts bear out the assertion that both were great players, Sehwag a more special, and revolutionary one, in his style of play, but that Younis was a better Test batsman, in his ability to do well, in more countries, over a longer period time, at different parts of a match, in critical moments of series, and in so far as in the moment when each player were at their peak, YK was putting more runs on the board per year, and had a higher ICC rating, than Sehwag.

Well, there is no need to counter any of your argument afterall we are on the same page. I was just stating that Ban and Zim failures shouldn't be taken seriously. I do rate Younis Khan in test cricket very highly.
 
WI had Ambrose and Walsh whom Younis faced during his early days and batted like a tailender against them.

Bangladesh were absolutely nothing test side during Sehwag's career and scoring against them is irrelevant as so many people talk or accuse players of minnow bashing. They became a decent side only in last 3 years.


Right, Younis had a bad series against Ambrose and Walsh. As many a good batsman have had. Would be interesting to see how Sehwag would have done against them, but we can't. But Sehwag had worse series yet against worse bowlers, for starters, he was helpless against the might of Tuffey and Styris in NZ 2002.

(We know is that when Sehwag went to the Windies, they had retired, and he scored a century in WI, which is what Younis also did on his next visit to Win, averaging 45)

The second point here is minnows. I don't understand why performance against minnows is irrelevant. Runs against them may not matter as much, but by that logic failures against them should matter all the more. "Unlucky" is a weasel word.

The more important point is that the question of why we are arguing about WIN in the first place? Which is that including Wi in this list of countries obscures the fact that Sehwag was positively useless in NZ and ENG, and very unreliable in SAF. If one also adds BAN, that is half the cricketing world. A very severe limitation.

If we want to be provocative, we may ask, can one player really be counted an ATG while being so poor in so many countries? If the person we talking about is Kohli, many people say no. He has to perform in England first, some people say. I am not one of them. All I would content is that an unreliability such a SHW exhibited is a major demerit in comparing SHW to YK.

It is not just about the moving ball. It is about consistency as such. Which is to say excellence. Again, Sewhag was an amazing player, but if one looks at the question of excellence, from multiple angles, one would have to say YK was the better Test player.
 
And then to the most telling stat. Both batsmen were at one point in their career ranked No 1 by the ICC. But Sehwag's highest rating is 866, Younis' was 880. Sehwag in his pomp may have awed us like few others, but there is no question that across their careers, YK was the better Test batsmen, overall.

Correction. Sehwag's highest ICC rating was 866, not 774, that was in ODIs, where YK of course would have been lucky to reach such heights. The gap to YK's max rating of 880 is indeed also more reflective of the gap between them at their very peak. But looking at the graphs we can also, and more predictably, see that Sehwag's ratings were more up-and-down over the course of his career.
 
YK has 34 Test centuries. Sehwag has 23. That's a big difference.

If YK had played as many Tests per year as did Sehwag, the difference would have been even more stark. Again, over his career YK scored centuries at a faster rate, per match, than Sachin. A remarkable stat.
 
Fair enough if the middle order is weak any sensible person would choose YK as he a solid middle order bat and if you don’t have first tier of middle order bats then YK is one of the best options from the second tier..

No matter what is the middle order, no sensible person would pick Sehwag to open if they are playing in SAF, Eng, NZ, or BAN. He would not even be 5th tier. If you are playing in SL, Pak or IND yes, he would be fabulous. But in those countries YK would also be a sensible person's choice for the middle order, and for most of the time that YK played, a first tier choice. What better options to play spin in late innings in Asia, in his time?
 
YK was surely more consistent, but if there is argument about in Asian condition then Sehwag will be my number one pick , even ahead of SRT, let alone batsman like YK. Sehwag would bash even ATG bowlers in Asian condition.

For Sehwag era, citing runs against BD to make a case for YK is simply absurd. BD was a non-entity and I don't really care who scored how much against them.
 
YK was surely more consistent, but if there is argument about in Asian condition then Sehwag will be my number one pick , even ahead of SRT, let alone batsman like YK. Sehwag would bash even ATG bowlers in Asian condition.

For Sehwag era, citing runs against BD to make a case for YK is simply absurd. BD was a non-entity and I don't really care who scored how much against them.

In Asian conditions, YK was also legendary. If Sehwag was no.1 there, Yk has to be no.2 ahead of SRT.
 
As it happens most often here, two players who shouldn’t be compared have been compared. YK was a very reliable batsman. There’s always extra marks for reliability. Sehwag wasn’t that reliable. You can’t expect him to play according to the situation. But he was given the nod to play like that because of the star studded Indian batting lineup and he played some outstanding knocks that are way ahead of any by YK. He was the most exciting and destructive test batsman ever.

I have to say YK is better. But we need more batsmen like Sehwag for test cricket to survive.
 
YK was surely more consistent, but if there is argument about in Asian condition then Sehwag will be my number one pick , even ahead of SRT, let alone batsman like YK. Sehwag would bash even ATG bowlers in Asian condition.

For Sehwag era, citing runs against BD to make a case for YK is simply absurd. BD was a non-entity and I don't really care who scored how much against them.

Just make it clear for the rest of us that Bangladesh is not Asia, so that we don't have to pick Sehwag when we tour there.
 
A joke comparison really. Both were monsters in Asia but Khan was a colossus outside the subcontinent as well whereas Sehwag was a midget.

Sehwag averages what? Below 25 in England, New Zealand and South Africa? And like Rahul Dravid, boosted his average in Australia by feasting on Australia's 'C' attack during that one tour?

I'd take Yousuf over Sehwag, let alone a bonafide ATG like Younis Khan.
 
No matter what is the middle order, no sensible person would pick Sehwag to open if they are playing in SAF, Eng, NZ, or BAN. He would not even be 5th tier. If you are playing in SL, Pak or IND yes, he would be fabulous. But in those countries YK would also be a sensible person's choice for the middle order, and for most of the time that YK played, a first tier choice. What better options to play spin in late innings in Asia, in his time?


Not really there are other better options to pick other than YK in those conditions like SRT, pointing, Lara, sanga, Dravid, ABD, smith, soon kohli etc etc.. Same way as there would be better openers to pick than Sehwag in those conditions.


However in flat conditions Sehwag is the first name on the team sheet there is no better opener than him in history of the game.. YK is also very good but against there are other options in middle order as well in spin conditions you can add Andy flower in middle order as well.. I might be forgetting names of past players as well..
 
Not really there are other better options to pick other than YK in those conditions like SRT, pointing, Lara, sanga, Dravid, ABD, smith, soon kohli etc etc.. Same way as there would be better openers to pick than Sehwag in those conditions.


However in flat conditions Sehwag is the first name on the team sheet there is no better opener than him in history of the game.. YK is also very good but against there are other options in middle order as well in spin conditions you can add Andy flower in middle order as well.. I might be forgetting names of past players as well..

But this is comparison be Viru and YK
weird comparison actually; opener and a middle order batsman.

If i have to pick one just based on quality and not batting position, i will go with YK anyday
 
But this is comparison be Viru and YK
weird comparison actually; opener and a middle order batsman.

If i have to pick one just based on quality and not batting position, i will go with YK anyday

That is the point how do you compare an opener with a totally different play style with a middle order batsmen? Could YK had performed any better than Viru if he had opened, fat chance he would himself be a walking wicket against the new ball in bowling conditions and in batting conditions no one can match Viru.. Could Viru have performed better than YK if he was a middle order batsmen? Maybe he did score 105 ok debut in SA batting in middle order.. Or maybe he would have been worse than YK we don’t know..

So this comparison is based on hypotheticals of what could have been or if the situation was different.. Not on actual careers of the two as hey had different roles..
 
That is the point how do you compare an opener with a totally different play style with a middle order batsmen? Could YK had performed any better than Viru if he had opened, fat chance he would himself be a walking wicket against the new ball in bowling conditions and in batting conditions no one can match Viru.. Could Viru have performed better than YK if he was a middle order batsmen? Maybe he did score 105 ok debut in SA batting in middle order.. Or maybe he would have been worse than YK we don’t know..

So this comparison is based on hypotheticals of what could have been or if the situation was different.. Not on actual careers of the two as hey had different roles..

Sure we can say comparison is too difficult, as we could for any two players who came in at different moments of game, face different opposition, played with different teams etc etc. Comparison is never an exact science. But if pushed to give an answer to who is the best Test batsman, then YK would have to edge it by most objective criteria

YK 34 centuries
SHW 23 centuries

YK .28 centuries per Test
SHW .22 centuries per Test

YK 12 centuries 2nd Innings
SHW 1 century 2nd Innings

YK Max ICC rating score in Tests 880
SHW Max ICC rating score in Tests 866

YK 10 - years above ICC 750 ratings point
SHW 6+ years above ICC 750 ratings point

YK Ave in AUS 50 (1 100s)
SHW Ave in AUS 46 (3 100s)
YK in Eng 50 (2 100s):
SHW in Eng 27 ( 1 100)
YK in NZ 43 (1 100)
SHW in NZ 25 (0 100s)
YK in SAF 35 (1 100)
SHW in SAF 25 (1 100)
 
A joke comparison really. Both were monsters in Asia but Khan was a colossus outside the subcontinent as well whereas Sehwag was a midget.

Sehwag averages what? Below 25 in England, New Zealand and South Africa? And like Rahul Dravid, boosted his average in Australia by feasting on Australia's 'C' attack during that one tour?

I'd take Yousuf over Sehwag, let alone a bonafide ATG like Younis Khan.

We can also put it like this; what is likely to be the most difficult, demanding task for Test batsman, and thus the truest test of their skill, opening in Asia, or batting in the 3rd/4th innings in Asia?
 
Not really there are other better options to pick other than YK in those conditions like SRT, pointing, Lara, sanga, Dravid, ABD, smith, soon kohli etc etc.. Same way as there would be better openers to pick than Sehwag in those conditions.


However in flat conditions Sehwag is the first name on the team sheet there is no better opener than him in history of the game.. YK is also very good but against there are other options in middle order as well in spin conditions you can add Andy flower in middle order as well.. I might be forgetting names of past players as well..

this is a bad joke. he may have been one of the best openers of his era, but sehwag was barely selectable in three major test playing countries, which puts him far off historical figures like hobbs, sutcliffe, greenidge, and, last but not least, gavaskar, who to my mind may be the best indian batsman of all time, B.K (Before Kohli) he averaged 70 against the windies in the windies, facing likely the best pace attack the game has ever seen. sehwag was humbled by the likes of tuffey and styris in new zealand. a joke.
 
Not really there are other better options to pick other than YK in those conditions like SRT, pointing, Lara, sanga, Dravid, ABD, smith, soon kohli etc etc.. Same way as there would be better openers to pick than Sehwag in those conditions.


However in flat conditions Sehwag is the first name on the team sheet there is no better opener than him in history of the game.. YK is also very good but against there are other options in middle order as well in spin conditions you can add Andy flower in middle order as well.. I might be forgetting names of past players as well..

this is a bad joke. he may have been one of the best openers of his era, but sehwag was barely selectable in three major test playing countries, which puts him far off historical figures like hobbs, sutcliffe, greenidge, and, last but not least, gavaskar, who to my mind may be the best indian batsman of all time, B.K (Before Kohli) he averaged 70 against the windies in the windies, facing likely the best pace attack the game has ever seen. sehwag was humbled by the likes of tuffey and styris in new zealand. a joke.

I will take Sehwag in a heart beat in flat tracks over all 4 names mentioned and that was the point poster was making.

First BD club level bowling was the benchmark and now replying to post with totally irrelevant post. It can happen when you like some player. It happens with me too as well so not really unique ;)
 
Lol@ dravid "feasting" on Australia's C attack. That attack still had Gillespie Macgill Lee and Bichel ...better than most attacks today.
 
this is a bad joke. he may have been one of the best openers of his era, but sehwag was barely selectable in three major test playing countries, which puts him far off historical figures like hobbs, sutcliffe, greenidge, and, last but not least, gavaskar, who to my mind may be the best indian batsman of all time, B.K (Before Kohli) he averaged 70 against the windies in the windies, facing likely the best pace attack the game has ever seen. sehwag was humbled by the likes of tuffey and styris in new zealand. a joke.



Oh my God please read the post you quoted it says IN FLAT CONDITIONS Sehwag is the best opener ever which is the truth..

How conveniently you missed the flat pitches part.. No one is denying there are better openers than Sehwag in non flat conditions but if you think there is any opener in history of game better than Sehwag in flat pitches/Asian conditions you are terribly mistaken..

Yes Sehwag was humbled by mediocre bowlers in alien conditions no one denies that.. Not sure what you are arguing about tbh ask any neutral poster they would say Sehwag is the first name on the team sheet in batsmen friendly conditions and is downright average in bowler friendly conditions..
 
Sure we can say comparison is too difficult, as we could for any two players who came in at different moments of game, face different opposition, played with different teams etc etc. Comparison is never an exact science. But if pushed to give an answer to who is the best Test batsman, then YK would have to edge it by most objective criteria

YK 34 centuries
SHW 23 centuries

YK .28 centuries per Test
SHW .22 centuries per Test

YK 12 centuries 2nd Innings
SHW 1 century 2nd Innings

YK Max ICC rating score in Tests 880
SHW Max ICC rating score in Tests 866

YK 10 - years above ICC 750 ratings point
SHW 6+ years above ICC 750 ratings point

YK Ave in AUS 50 (1 100s)
SHW Ave in AUS 46 (3 100s)
YK in Eng 50 (2 100s):
SHW in Eng 27 ( 1 100)
YK in NZ 43 (1 100)
SHW in NZ 25 (0 100s)
YK in SAF 35 (1 100)
SHW in SAF 25 (1 100)


I have already conceded I haven’t watched YK’s full career however based on the records you presented I would say he might be a better bat than Sehwag.. However the discussion we were having was about who is more likely to get into an ATG team and Sehwag trumps YK there due to the points I mentioned before..
 
I will take Sehwag in a heart beat in flat tracks over all 4 names mentioned and that was the point poster was making.

First BD club level bowling was the benchmark and now replying to post with totally irrelevant post. It can happen when you like some player. It happens with me too as well so not really unique ;)


Sehwag is he best ever opener in flat conditions in history of test matches.. That is a fact.. He batted at such a pace that you can have results on a dead pitch no other opener in history of tests has been so consistent in that regard..

Everyone knows in non batting conditions he struggled but so did every other Asian opener apart from Gavaskar and maybe Anwar for sometime..
 
I have already conceded I haven’t watched YK’s full career however based on the records you presented I would say he might be a better bat than Sehwag.. However the discussion we were having was about who is more likely to get into an ATG team and Sehwag trumps YK there due to the points I mentioned before..

I think the title of the thread is there for all to see: 'who was the better Test batsman.'

The ATG team is another debate, but it would have to be a peculiarly framed query. Who would get into an ATG team but only in Asia but not in Bangladesh for the years 2003-2009...

As for comparing the two head to head, the Bangalore Test of 2005 offers an interesting example, though it can of course only be an example.

Younis came in at first drop, after Afridi and Hameed had faced 12 balls between them. So he effectively opened. As he indeed did many times in his career, with Pakistani being infamously short of quality openers in the modern era. YK famously scored 267 at SR 52, Sehwag responded with 201 at SR 76, YK was 84 * at SR 85 in the Pakistani reply, and Sehwag could not do better than 38 SR 76 in the second innings. Fairly clear that Sehwag was not the best batsman, opening or otherwise, in that match.
 
Sehwag is he best ever opener in flat conditions in history of test matches.. That is a fact.. He batted at such a pace that you can have results on a dead pitch no other opener in history of tests has been so consistent in that regard..

Everyone knows in non batting conditions he struggled but so did every other Asian opener apart from Gavaskar and maybe Anwar for sometime..

No, not all Asian openers have struggled as much as Sehwag did outside of Asia. A number of Asian players have excelled in many of the countries where Sehwag foundered. See under: Hanif Mohammad, Gautam Ghambir, Sanath Jayysuriya, Marwan Attapatu, even lowly Tawfeeq Umar took a liking to SAF, averaging 70 there...
 
Not really there are other better options to pick other than YK in those conditions like SRT, pointing, Lara, sanga, Dravid, ABD, smith, soon kohli etc etc.. Same way as there would be better openers to pick than Sehwag in those conditions.


However in flat conditions Sehwag is the first name on the team sheet there is no better opener than him in history of the game.. YK is also very good but against there are other options in middle order as well in spin conditions you can add Andy flower in middle order as well.. I might be forgetting names of past players as well..

You would pick Ponting, ABD, Dravid, Smith and Kohli over Khan in Asia? Really? On what basis?

We can also put it like this; what is likely to be the most difficult, demanding task for Test batsman, and thus the truest test of their skill, opening in Asia, or batting in the 3rd/4th innings in Asia?

Yes, good point. Another good point is that an opener who is a bunny against the moving ball is a pretty big liability for any team, which Sehwag was whenever his team toured England, New Zealand or South Africa.

India should have opened with Dravid and batted Sehwag down at five in those countries.

Younis Khan a bonafide ATG :)))

And miles ahead of Sachin when it comes to battling it out in the fourth innings. Deal with it.
 
Lol@ dravid "feasting" on Australia's C attack. That attack still had Gillespie Macgill Lee and Bichel ...better than most attacks today.

Yes, the legendary test ATG, Brett Lee and Bichel... Who was that again?

Rahul Dravid barely averages 40 in Australia and scored a ton of runs in that series. What else would you call it?
 
Oh my God please read the post you quoted it says IN FLAT CONDITIONS Sehwag is the best opener ever which is the truth..

How conveniently you missed the flat pitches part.. No one is denying there are better openers than Sehwag in non flat conditions but if you think there is any opener in history of game better than Sehwag in flat pitches/Asian conditions you are terribly mistaken..

Yes Sehwag was humbled by mediocre bowlers in alien conditions no one denies that.. Not sure what you are arguing about tbh ask any neutral poster they would say Sehwag is the first name on the team sheet in batsmen friendly conditions and is downright average in bowler friendly conditions..

It sounds pretty bad when your whole argument revolves around Sehwag being the greatest FTB of all-time. Yeah, he probably is but how does that make him better than an all-conditions performer like Younis Khan?

If Sehwag was a 9.5 in Asia, Khan was at least a 9. However, Khan was a 8 outside Asia whereas Sehwag wasn't even a 3.
 
And miles ahead of Sachin when it comes to battling it out in the fourth innings. Deal with it.

He wasn't even a great of the game, let alone a bonafide ATG. He was a Pakistani great. No amount of self assurance is going to change how he or anyone else is rated by the cricketing fraternity. But then again you also think Amla, averaging below 49, is the best Test batsman of his era :))
 
Inzamam was a better batsman that Younis, and yet he was a Pakistani great. So if Younis is a bonafide ATG, what does that make Inzamam? The same question was asked to Geoff Boycott after Inzamam's retirement on whether he is a great or not. Boycott laughed it off saying he wasn't one, and that he was a fine player and a credit to the game. Even a thread was created back then on PP regarding Boycott's statement and a lot of Pak posters agreed with his statement.
 
The answer depends on a lot of variables. If you are in a team with gun batsmen, you'd want Sehwag to play the way he did and in a Pakistan-like batting line-up, a Sehwag wouldn't have that freedom and his dismissals would probably be ridiculed more. And you'd think that a Younis would maybe have scored more in a batting line-up like India's. In normal circumstances, I would have to flip a coin but if I were to build an XI - be it all-time or 2000s, Sehwag stands a better chance of getting in, because he is unique and averaged 50+ for most of his career as an opener (extremely rare), there are plenty of alternatives to Younis though.
 
Funny comparison again! Sehwag should be compared with a non-existent Pakistani opener in Test matches who could dominate like that (Only Australia have produced players like that in test matches) If you wanted him to play like Dravid or Younis, then he probably wouldn't have found place in that Indian side! India would have continued with Sanjay Bangar or his clones...
 
He wasn't even a great of the game, let alone a bonafide ATG. He was a Pakistani great. No amount of self assurance is going to change how he or anyone else is rated by the cricketing fraternity. But then again you also think Amla, averaging below 49, is the best Test batsman of his era :))

It's funny how you mention Amla's average as the sole reason for him not being the best test batsman of his generation (which he is, Warne averaged over 25) yet Khan's averages are more deserving of the ATG tag than someone like Dravid.

Anyone who has watched the man bat and is familiar with his record will know that the man is a top-notch legend if they have any sort of sense. Runs all over the world, plenty of iconic knocks and all this without getting to play at home for years makes Khan one of the top five batsmen from Asia.

Sehwag doesn't even make the top 10.
 
Inzamam was a better batsman that Younis, and yet he was a Pakistani great. So if Younis is a bonafide ATG, what does that make Inzamam? The same question was asked to Geoff Boycott after Inzamam's retirement on whether he is a great or not. Boycott laughed it off saying he wasn't one, and that he was a fine player and a credit to the game. Even a thread was created back then on PP regarding Boycott's statement and a lot of Pak posters agreed with his statement.

Except that Inzamam was NOT better than Younis Khan at test cricket. Your logic is laughable.
 
The answer depends on a lot of variables. If you are in a team with gun batsmen, you'd want Sehwag to play the way he did and in a Pakistan-like batting line-up, a Sehwag wouldn't have that freedom and his dismissals would probably be ridiculed more. And you'd think that a Younis would maybe have scored more in a batting line-up like India's. In normal circumstances, I would have to flip a coin but if I were to build an XI - be it all-time or 2000s, Sehwag stands a better chance of getting in, because he is unique and averaged 50+ for most of his career as an opener (extremely rare), there are plenty of alternatives to Younis though.

Sehwag had a unique combination of aggressiveness, consistency, and endurance, ie an ability to score big, in certain conditions, which made him a singularly attractive entertainer in the Test arena. Hard to think of anyone who compares to him in that regard.

But that doesn't make him a better Test batsman than those who entertained less, nor a sure fire choice for a World XI, clearly not ATG but also not necessarily of Sehwag's own era.

Most of the time, when we speak of ATG batsmen we insist that they be able to perform in varying conditions. And again, it is really really hard to see how one could select him for an XI which would play outside of Pak/Ind/SL.

Sehwag gets off the hook for many people, I think because he was so spectacular in certain places, and I mean spectacular, not necessarily consistent. But if you are selecting an XI with an intent to win in, not entertain, would you select someone who was so fallible in so many countries?

Whether or not the rest of the line up is a great one is a somewhat dubious argument I think. The question when selecting an XI is what is the best possible line up, and Sehwag was selected by India because he genuinely was one of the two the best option, in India. There was no Hayden or Cook or Smith to choose from.

If picking a World XI, which has to perform as well as possible in as many places as possible, we suffer no such constraints.

If picking such a lineup we have consider, is the extra speed at which Sehwag was likely to score, in Ind or SL - ie 3-5 overs faster to a hundred than Hayden or Smith - was more valuable than the ability to get reliable runs outside of SL/Ind/Pak, or in the second innings of a Test?

Fast runs are of a premium only in certain situations in Tests, and the question there is not what is the average SR of the batsman who is playing, but whether that batsmen would be capable of accelerating when the situation demands it? Hayden, we most certainly know, could do that.

And we know, from the example of the 2005 Bangalore Test, for instance, in which YK outscored Sehwag, that YK actually could bat very fast, at SR 85, when the premium was on putting runs on the board quickly.

The difference between the two is that YK could play better to the situation, not that Sehwag alone was capable of scoring quickly, though he certainly was unique in scoring quickly and big, so often.
 
The answer depends on a lot of variables. If you are in a team with gun batsmen, you'd want Sehwag to play the way he did and in a Pakistan-like batting line-up, a Sehwag wouldn't have that freedom and his dismissals would probably be ridiculed more. And you'd think that a Younis would maybe have scored more in a batting line-up like India's. In normal circumstances, I would have to flip a coin but if I were to build an XI - be it all-time or 2000s, Sehwag stands a better chance of getting in, because he is unique and averaged 50+ for most of his career as an opener (extremely rare), there are plenty of alternatives to Younis though.

Really? How many batsmen of his YK's era scored more hundreds/Test than he did? How many averaged more than him in the 4th innings? How many were better players of spin?
 
The answer depends on a lot of variables. If you are in a team with gun batsmen, you'd want Sehwag to play the way he did and in a Pakistan-like batting line-up, a Sehwag wouldn't have that freedom and his dismissals would probably be ridiculed more. And you'd think that a Younis would maybe have scored more in a batting line-up like India's. In normal circumstances, I would have to flip a coin but if I were to build an XI - be it all-time or 2000s, Sehwag stands a better chance of getting in, because he is unique and averaged 50+ for most of his career as an opener (extremely rare), there are plenty of alternatives to Younis though.

Building an ATG line up shouldn't be the way batsmen should be compared.
 
Building an ATG line up shouldn't be the way batsmen should be compared.

Why? If someone can get into an ATG lineup and other can't, that probably speaks a lot for how special or unique the former was in his performances. Murli probably would outgun Warne in a statistical battle but Warne would make most ATG lineups and that is an indication of there being something special to Warne that can't be defined in statistical ways. And that is true of Sehwag too. His hundreds were not just hundred runs but a complete demoralising experience for bowling teams and other batsmen benefited from it a lot.
 
Really? How many batsmen of his YK's era scored more hundreds/Test than he did? How many averaged more than him in the 4th innings? How many were better players of spin?

Lara, Kallis, Tendulkar, Jayawardene, Chanderpaul, AB, Clarke, Pietersen.... and the list goes on and on. YK might be better than some in some sections and behind in others. Nonetheless, a lot of players can challenge YK in such XIs. Not many there to challenge Viru
 
Sehwag had a unique combination of aggressiveness, consistency, and endurance, ie an ability to score big, in certain conditions, which made him a singularly attractive entertainer in the Test arena. Hard to think of anyone who compares to him in that regard.

But that doesn't make him a better Test batsman than those who entertained less, nor a sure fire choice for a World XI, clearly not ATG but also not necessarily of Sehwag's own era.

Most of the time, when we speak of ATG batsmen we insist that they be able to perform in varying conditions. And again, it is really really hard to see how one could select him for an XI which would play outside of Pak/Ind/SL.

Sehwag gets off the hook for many people, I think because he was so spectacular in certain places, and I mean spectacular, not necessarily consistent. But if you are selecting an XI with an intent to win in, not entertain, would you select someone who was so fallible in so many countries?

Whether or not the rest of the line up is a great one is a somewhat dubious argument I think. The question when selecting an XI is what is the best possible line up, and Sehwag was selected by India because he genuinely was one of the two the best option, in India. There was no Hayden or Cook or Smith to choose from.

If picking a World XI, which has to perform as well as possible in as many places as possible, we suffer no such constraints.

If picking such a lineup we have consider, is the extra speed at which Sehwag was likely to score, in Ind or SL - ie 3-5 overs faster to a hundred than Hayden or Smith - was more valuable than the ability to get reliable runs outside of SL/Ind/Pak, or in the second innings of a Test?

Fast runs are of a premium only in certain situations in Tests, and the question there is not what is the average SR of the batsman who is playing, but whether that batsmen would be capable of accelerating when the situation demands it? Hayden, we most certainly know, could do that.

And we know, from the example of the 2005 Bangalore Test, for instance, in which YK outscored Sehwag, that YK actually could bat very fast, at SR 85, when the premium was on putting runs on the board quickly.

The difference between the two is that YK could play better to the situation, not that Sehwag alone was capable of scoring quickly, though he certainly was unique in scoring quickly and big, so often.

A lot of what you have written is factually and logically wrong. And don't judge Sehwag just by stats. There is a reason why a lot of these SkySports XIs have Sehwag at the top. And Sehwag was never an opener in FC, we had other choices. Just that Ganguly made it work. And picking a World XI doesn't come with fixed rules, it is very subjective.

Sehwag didn't just score fast runs, he destroyed good bowlers in subcontinent. Once scored a 201* out of 329 by India vs Muttiah, Mendis, Vaas. Only he could play like that. No point going deeper into the discussion, cos we can have very different ways of judging the players and question is open ended.
 
Lara, Kallis, Tendulkar, Jayawardene, Chanderpaul, AB, Clarke, Pietersen.... and the list goes on and on. YK might be better than some in some sections and behind in others. Nonetheless, a lot of players can challenge YK in such XIs. Not many there to challenge Viru

Nope. You don't have to take the bait but if you do try to get it right. Remarkably, none of these players scored centuries as relentlessly as did YK. He had 34 centuries in 118 matches, Lara needed 131 matches. Same with Sachin. Not that I wouldn't pick Lara over pretty much everyone else. But the point stands, YK was a special player in his own right, more than is acknowledged even by Pakistani fans.

And of course there are players to challenge Viru, if you are interested in fielding a globally competitive XI, as opposed to making hay on easy Indian and Pakistani pitches. Hayden, Smith, Cook. Even Gambhir. There are usually some kinds of tradeoffs, of course, some player will better here than there. But if you care more about doing well in South Africa or New Zealand for instance, you would prefer even Strauss over Viru. You can go on and on about Viru's special impact, and of course he was special, but outside his own yard, he was also especially brittle and unreliable. Who did he mercilessly intimidate in New Zealand?
 
A lot of what you have written is factually and logically wrong. And don't judge Sehwag just by stats. There is a reason why a lot of these SkySports XIs have Sehwag at the top. And Sehwag was never an opener in FC, we had other choices. Just that Ganguly made it work. And picking a World XI doesn't come with fixed rules, it is very subjective.

Sehwag didn't just score fast runs, he destroyed good bowlers in subcontinent. Once scored a 201* out of 329 by India vs Muttiah, Mendis, Vaas. Only he could play like that. No point going deeper into the discussion, cos we can have very different ways of judging the players and question is open ended.

Right, Sehwag was great, fabulous in the subcontinent, outside Bangladesh. You can keep reciting this, but it doesn't change facts. Which is that he was far from fabulous much elsewhere. And facts are what the argument is about. You can call them stats if you like, I call it performance, written down on paper. Or we can look at how YK and Sehwag fared when playing against each other, on the same pitches, as I did earlier, in crunch matches, where conditions are supposed to have vastly favored Viru. Again, I don't dispute he was a great player, but he wasn't a better batsman than YK by most any objective criterion. If I am factually incorrect, correct me.
 
Lara, Kallis, Tendulkar, Jayawardene, Chanderpaul, AB, Clarke, Pietersen.... and the list goes on and on. YK might be better than some in some sections and behind in others. Nonetheless, a lot of players can challenge YK in such XIs. Not many there to challenge Viru

I had to a double take on this one, actually. There is literally no respect in which Pietersen is better than YK, barring a slightly higher strike rate. Compared to YK he averaged less overall, by about 5 points, though he played against worse bowlers than YK faced early on his career, he averaged less in most countries than YK, he scored centuries less regularly... Yes how they stack up will always be subjective to some extent, but as Boycs might have put it, only Pietersen's granny would pick Kevin over Younis.
 
I had to a double take on this one, actually. There is literally no respect in which Pietersen is better than YK, barring a slightly higher strike rate. Compared to YK he averaged less overall, by about 5 points, though he played against worse bowlers than YK faced early on his career, he averaged less in most countries than YK, he scored centuries less regularly... Yes how they stack up will always be subjective to some extent, but as Boycs might have put it, only Pietersen's granny would pick Kevin over Younis.

I will take YK over KP over all, but KP has more gun knocks against gun bowlers. KP was simply too inconsistent and that was negative.
 
Why? If someone can get into an ATG lineup and other can't, that probably speaks a lot for how special or unique the former was in his performances. Murli probably would outgun Warne in a statistical battle but Warne would make most ATG lineups and that is an indication of there being something special to Warne that can't be defined in statistical ways. And that is true of Sehwag too. His hundreds were not just hundred runs but a complete demoralising experience for bowling teams and other batsmen benefited from it a lot.

Well, we can do a logic experiment here. Say the world has no better opening batsman available than this fellow Ahmed Shehzad. Meanwhile there are 20 middle order batsmen named Sachin Tendulkar available. Because none of the Tendulkars are opening batsmen, some of will miss out on a spot in the W XI for that era. Does this mean that Shehzad is a better batsman than all of these Tendulkars?

But the point you first have to make, re Sehwag, is that he would in fact get into an ATG lineup, as an opener, over players like Gavaskar, Sutcliffe, Hobbs, etc etc. If its only his era the argument can be made, but it isn't straightforward at all, given how limited he was.
 
Why? If someone can get into an ATG lineup and other can't, that probably speaks a lot for how special or unique the former was in his performances. Murli probably would outgun Warne in a statistical battle but Warne would make most ATG lineups and that is an indication of there being something special to Warne that can't be defined in statistical ways. And that is true of Sehwag too. His hundreds were not just hundred runs but a complete demoralising experience for bowling teams and other batsmen benefited from it a lot.

Perhaps. But what about when and where he didn't score hundreds?
 
I will take YK over KP over all, but KP has more gun knocks against gun bowlers. KP was simply too inconsistent and that was negative.

Some gun bowlers maybe, PPers tend to think white pace bowlers are always the ones it matters to perform against. But if I recall, PK was practically Asif's bunny, and couldn't play spin in the UAE to save his life.
 
Why? If someone can get into an ATG lineup and other can't, that probably speaks a lot for how special or unique the former was in his performances. Murli probably would outgun Warne in a statistical battle but Warne would make most ATG lineups and that is an indication of there being something special to Warne that can't be defined in statistical ways. And that is true of Sehwag too. His hundreds were not just hundred runs but a complete demoralising experience for bowling teams and other batsmen benefited from it a lot.

I forgot to add. Except when his hundreds were just particularly fast and entertaining additions to yet another subcontinental slog fest, in which the opposition, far from being demoralized, responded by piling up their own runs, sometimes even faster than Sehwag could score, and Sehwag in turn fell away in the second innings. See under Younis Khan, Bangalore 2005.
 
Right, Sehwag was great, fabulous in the subcontinent, outside Bangladesh. You can keep reciting this, but it doesn't change facts. Which is that he was far from fabulous much elsewhere. And facts are what the argument is about. You can call them stats if you like, I call it performance, written down on paper. Or we can look at how YK and Sehwag fared when playing against each other, on the same pitches, as I did earlier, in crunch matches, where conditions are supposed to have vastly favored Viru. Again, I don't dispute he was a great player, but he wasn't a better batsman than YK by most any objective criterion. If I am factually incorrect, correct me.

Ah, but how can I? Of course I was blind all along. Younis averaged a mammoth 88 against us, and Sehwag only 91 against Pakistan. Younis had a SR of 60 in those innings, which shows that he was able to spend more time, while Sehwag's strike rate of 80 meant rest of the lineup had to bide more time at the crease and Sehwag couldn't stay for long at the crease. Also Younis was always facing more pressure because our bowling lineup has always been better than Pak's.

Then of course, Younis was able to score those hundreds in less matches than Lara, also had better 4th inning average and Lara was below par in India, NZ and averaged just 41 in Australia. How can Lara be compared to Younis?

And Pietersen of course was not better than YK in any aspect. As soon as I read this, I realised how big a fool I was to compare him to master Younis.

Agree with all the points you have made. Such strong and wise arguments. It is all just so simple and profound.
 
I had to a double take on this one, actually. There is literally no respect in which Pietersen is better than YK, barring a slightly higher strike rate. Compared to YK he averaged less overall, by about 5 points, though he played against worse bowlers than YK faced early on his career, he averaged less in most countries than YK, he scored centuries less regularly... Yes how they stack up will always be subjective to some extent, but as Boycs might have put it, only Pietersen's granny would pick Kevin over Younis.

Just that one? There is absolutely no good reason for someone to pick Clarke, Chanderpaul, Jayawardene and AB de Villiers over Younis Khan either.

Of course Kallis, Lara and Sachin are better than Khan but then again, they are also much better than Sehwag. Also, count me among those who will pick Smith, Cook and Hayden over Sehwag. Additionally, if "making an all-time XI" is the criteria then I'll just do what a lot of experts do and open with a great #3 batsman instead of wasting a spot on Sehwag.
 
I will take YK over KP over all, but KP has more gun knocks against gun bowlers. KP was simply too inconsistent and that was negative.

Kp is better than younis....chanderpaul sangakara alister cook shewag hayden greame smith all are better than younis...Younis khan is only good for UAE hundreads...
 
Ah, but how can I? Of course I was blind all along. Younis averaged a mammoth 88 against us, and Sehwag only 91 against Pakistan. Younis had a SR of 60 in those innings, which shows that he was able to spend more time, while Sehwag's strike rate of 80 meant rest of the lineup had to bide more time at the crease and Sehwag couldn't stay for long at the crease. Also Younis was always facing more pressure because our bowling lineup has always been better than Pak's.

Then of course, Younis was able to score those hundreds in less matches than Lara, also had better 4th inning average and Lara was below par in India, NZ and averaged just 41 in Australia. How can Lara be compared to Younis?

And Pietersen of course was not better than YK in any aspect. As soon as I read this, I realised how big a fool I was to compare him to master Younis.

Agree with all the points you have made. Such strong and wise arguments. It is all just so simple and profound.

Im happy to engage with any arguments you have, but you need to spell it out for me a bit better. I have tried to show with reference to some commonly available data that YK was actually better than many of his more famed contemporaries in some significant respects, including Sachin and Lara, (which should give any thinking cricketing fan pause. Both of these players are legends, but precisely in so far as they were, do we not need to recognize the achievement of someone who actually outperformed them in some respects?) such as his ability to score often and heavily, against widely varied opposition, and may therefore merit consideration in a World XI of his time, while pointing out that Sehwag for his undoubted skills, and in many respects unique talents, was too unreliable outside three Asian countries to be an automatic shoe-in for a World XI of his time. I haven't heard a persuasive counter argument from you, just some undercooked sarcasm. I havent claimed that YK was better than SHW in Asia but I have used the case of the 2005 Test in Bangalore to show that YK also in head to head comparison with SHW, playing on the same ground, and de facto opening the batting, like Sehwag, performed even better than Sehwag, not only scoring more runs, but batting faster than him when the situation required it, in the second innings, in order to secure a famous win. Sehwag was amazing in Asia (except Ban) but so was YK and more importantly, he was pretty darn good outside Asia. Some of which may be captured by the fact that YK's highest ICC rating is higher than Sehwag's.
 
Inzy was twice the batsman Younis ever was. In any format.

Well, in terms of body weight, undoubtedly, in every other objective measure, no, Inzi was a tremendous betrayal of natural talent. He could have been better than YK, he played pace better than him, but he did not have enough of whatever YK ate for breakfast every day. A lazy cricketer.
 
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