‘No larger conspiracy behind Gujarat riots’: SC rejects Zakia Jafri plea against clean chit to Modi

[Poison]

Modi supporters -

After reading through the circumstances of what happened in Gujarat there is only two possible conclusions you can come to.

1. Modi was complicit

2. Modi was unable to effectively control ministers operating underneath him, and unable or unwilling to control an unfolding riot in the State under his control.

Even if you accept the 2nd premise and think he wasn't complicit .. do you really want a person unable to control operations within his own state running the country? Reeks of incompetence at the highest of levels if not criminal negligence.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

^ U don't live in India, U don't talk to the people here,U don't know the kind of issues people have over here and u call me worse than extremist??
Way to go dude! A very very less % of the hindu populutation will vote for modi because he is a hindu and 'percieved' as right wing, it is neglibile.

Then why does he or his representatives feel any need at all to make negative comments on non-Hindus? It doesn't make sense.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Modi supporters -

After reading through the circumstances of what happened in Gujarat there is only two possible conclusions you can come to.

1. Modi was complicit

2. Modi was unable to effectively control ministers operating underneath him, and unable or unwilling to control an unfolding riot in the State under his control.

Even if you accept the 2nd premise and think he wasn't complicit .. do you really want a person unable to control operations within his own state running the country? Reeks of incompetence at the highest of levels if not criminal negligence.

You are being too kind by giving them the luxury of option 2.

They support him because of option 1.

 

[saadibaba]

Maybe India's middle and elite class fascination with Hitler has something to do with Modi's appeal.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/11/30/hitler-s-strange-afterlife-in-india.html

 

[battler]

Then why does he or his representatives feel any need at all to make negative comments on non-Hindus? It doesn't make sense.

Him making anti-pak remarks, I can accept as trying to pander to the hyper nationalists but he has categorically disowned any communal statement made by his party or others such as RSS or VHP.
In fact in many of his rallies and other speeches he has stressed home the point that 'vote-bank' politics is not his cup of tea and has spoken out against favouring any community.
I have seen quite a few rallies of his on tv and trust me not even one of them had a hint of communal tone about it, nationalistic yes but not communal.
His main points are talking about his development work in gujarat, talking about local issues of the people he is addressing and of-course criticizing the Gandhi family.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Then why does he or his representatives feel any need at all to make negative comments on non-Hindus? It doesn't make sense.

I bolded the part you ignored.

 

[battler]

I bolded the part you ignored.

They are not his representatives as in modi has distanced himself from every communal statement made by these guys, they are airing their views not his.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

You are being too kind by giving them the luxury of option 2.

They support him because of option 1.

No they don't.

Some do. Most don't.

Many want a leader and so they are willing to overlook his past (and its easy for non Muslims cos his actions didn't affect them).

But to make a sweeping statement that Indians support Modi because he allowed Gujarat riots is 100% wrong.

 

[battler]

This is highly misunderstood point here on pp that hindu's are supporting modi well because he is a 'hindu' and will favour them, trust me most people don't care about this. RSS and VHP making stupid statements doesn't help as well.
people are voting for modi because they want better jobs and better infrastructure.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

They are not his representatives as in modi has distanced himself from every communal statement made by these guys, they are airing their views not his.

All that is acting bud.

He may be TRULY angry at them.

But NOT for their statements but for their mess ups which harms his chances.

Modi at the end of the day is still a RSS fellow.

At best, he will keep RSS fanatics at bay and go for personal glory without rocking the Muslim boat when he becomes PM (if that happens).

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

This is highly misunderstood point here on pp that hindu's are supporting modi well because he is a 'hindu' and will favour them, trust me most people don't care about this. RSS and VHP making stupid statements doesn't help as well.
people are voting for modi because they want better jobs and better infrastructure.

True.

A huge huge misconception many have here.

 

[waqar goraya]

^ U don't live in India, U don't talk to the people here,U don't know the kind of issues people have over here and u call me worse than extremist??
Way to go dude! A very very less % of the hindu populutation will vote for modi because he is a hindu and 'percieved' as right wing, it is neglibile.
You can of-course stay on this thread,but please research more about this topic before u speak rubbish .
Thanks.

That's your mature answer.

As i said earlier they simply don't care.

If it is immature , rubbish in a way that it is hurting you then you may report it to the moderators.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Here's one thing I have noticed:

Modi as an administrator favors no one based on religion.

But as a guy whose ideology is based on Hindutva, he does have anti Muslim tendencies.

Hope people see the difference.

Muslim businessmen in Gujarat no longer shunning Modi

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/...ts-muslims-2014-lok-sabha-polls/1/330784.html

 

[battler]

All that is acting bud.

He may be TRULY angry at them.

But NOT for their statements but for their mess ups which harms his chances.

Modi at the end of the day is still a RSS fellow.

At best, he will keep RSS fanatics at bay and go for personal glory without rocking the Muslim boat when he becomes PM (if that happens).

Yeah true but what I meant is he isn't going to harm muslims in any way.
After 2002 riots,there has not been a single riot there that is proof enough.
Plus what can he do if rss and vhp are making stupid statements?
Atmost he can disown them, can't hold their mouth for them.

 

[battler]

That's your mature answer.

As i said earlier they simply don't care.

If it is immature , rubbish in a way that it is hurting you then you may report it to the moderators.

Simply don't care? In what sense?
No I don't want to report you, you have a right to express what u feel, but I am not getting the premise of your argument.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Yeah true but what I meant is he isn't going to harm muslims in any way. After 2002 riots,there has not been a single riot there that is proof enough.
Plus what can he do if rss and vhp are making stupid statements?
Atmost he can disown them, can't hold their mouth for them.

Most likely that's what would happen.

The only problem is that when BJP comes in power, these VHP RSS kinda organisations will gain power all over India.

That's what I heard some people fear.

I don't remember anything going wrong in Atal Behari Vajpayee's regime (other than this 2002 riots reg which we all have had our discussions).

 

[battler]

Most likely that's what would happen.

The only problem is that when BJP comes in power, these VHP RSS kinda organisations will gain power all over India.

That's what I heard some people fear.

I don't remember anything going wrong in Atal Behari Vajpayee's regime (other than this 2002 riots reg which we all have had our discussions).

I think modi will put a leash on them, because if anything happens then media will go beserk on modi.
They might keep making some small idiotic statement just to please the extreme hindus (who are in a tiny minority) but nothing substantial will happen because that will hurt modi's legacy.

 

[waqar goraya]

Simply don't care? In what sense?
No I don't want to report you, you have a right to express what u feel, but I am not getting the premise of your argument.

This is not incomprehensible.

In a sense whether he and his backers hold any prejudice against Muslims or have extremist tendencies. Even if they have extremist background it does not pose a threat to Hindu community.
Yep, they have promised Ram temple in their manifesto but it is nothing of note.
And i have to say that they are 100 percent right about this assessment. If Modi turns out to be bigoted towards Muslims it still does not pose any danger to them.
Commonsense prevailed.

I sincerely hope though that he turns out to be some one like a Vajpaee.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

I think modi will put a leash on them, because if anything happens then media will go beserk on modi.
They might keep making some small idiotic statement just to please the extreme hindus (who are in a tiny minority) but nothing substantial will happen because that will hurt modi's legacy.

Yeah that is a great point.

Only thing is already some parts of media are warming up to BJP.

But yeah on a general level, media would keep things in perspective in today's day and age.

Let's hope so.

 

[cricketjoshila]

True.

A huge huge misconception many have here.

People are voting for Modi because the other option is Rahul gandhi and Congress.If the other option was Vajpayee or Indira Gandhi,would i vote for Modi?NO!!!

 

[battler]

This is not incomprehensible.

In a sense whether he and his backers hold any prejudice against Muslims or have extremist tendencies. Even if they have extremist background it does not pose a threat to Hindu community.
Yep, they have promised Ram temple in their manifesto but it is nothing of note.
And i have to say that they are 100 percent right about this assessment. If Modi turns out to be bigoted towards Muslims it still does not pose any danger to them.
Commonsense prevailed.

I sincerely hope though that he turns out to be some one like a Vajpaee.

Modi is an ambitious man, if he does anything untoward against muslims, then he will lose quite some support from hindus as well, as most people in this country want development and not riots.
He has already tainted his legacy because of the 2002 riots and at a personal level would not want anything like that to happen ever again.
Don't take the manifesto of any party seriously, it is a joke as many party members itself would not be knowing what is in their manifesto let alone the pubic.
I'm not a modi fan or anything but like many Indian's I feel that right now modi is the only hope to see a more progressive India because congress is completely hopeless.

 

[dps2009]

muslim IPS and IAS officers have been shunned out of good postings since gurjat, so yes Modu is favoring one religion over the other, which is the underlying philosophy of the sangh parivar.
don't be naive enough to think modi is suddenly getting to be an enlightened man after he becomes PM.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

People are voting for Modi because the other option is Rahul gandhi and Congress.If the other option was Vajpayee or Indira Gandhi would i vote for Modi?NO!!!,

True. No one would.

 

[DHONI183]

[Compiled Facts] Was Modi Guilty Or Not 2002 Gujarat Riots

People are voting for Modi because the other option is Rahul gandhi and Congress.If the other option was Vajpayee or Indira Gandhi,would i vote for Modi?NO!!!

Why exactly would you then not vote for Modi if the other two options were available? I mean, what would be missing or lacking in him given already the perception that he has done wonders for Gujarat?

 

[adit_sh]

Yeah that is a great point.

Only thing is already some parts of media are warming up to BJP.

But yeah on a general level, media would keep things in perspective in today's day and age.

Let's hope so.

Not sure if this is the right forum to discuss this due to ideological differences.

For example I am least bothered on any hindus getting killed in Pakistan/AF etc but yes I will be concerned for the loss of life irrespective of any belief. I think most of us are like that. I was very much concerned for the loss of life in 2002 in Gujrat irrespective of religion. So much of Politics played over 2002 by parties, media, bureaucrats, govt agency etc that its impossible to convince any one with one aspect. Supreme Court has given clean chit to Modi which needs to be accepted by all citizen of India but there will question mark on his administrative ability to control things during such disasters. I am just hoping that he is able to learn from his mistakes and would be able to avoid such situation in future.

To me the ideological difference here is that for Muslims, the priority of religion is more than the country. I am happy to correct myself if it is not the case.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Why exactly would you then not vote for Modi if the other two options were available? I mean, what would be missing or lacking in him given already the perception that he has done wonders for Gujarat?

Simply because Vajpayee or Indira were better leaders than him any day of the week.But between Modi and Rahul Gandhi,its Modi who is better hands down.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Not sure if this is the right forum to discuss this due to ideological differences.

For example I am least bothered on any hindus getting killed in Pakistan/AF etc but yes I will be concerned for the loss of life irrespective of any belief. I think most of us are like that. I was very much concerned for the loss of life in 2002 in Gujrat irrespective of religion. So much of Politics played over 2002 by parties, media, bureaucrats, govt agency etc that its impossible to convince any one with one aspect. Supreme Court has given clean chit to Modi which needs to be accepted by all citizen of India but there will question mark on his administrative ability to control things during such disasters. I am just hoping that he is able to learn from his mistakes and would be able to avoid such situation in future.

To me the ideological difference here is that for Muslims, the priority of religion is more than the country. I am happy to correct myself if it is not the case.

A few points I would like to raise:

1. I don't think Supreme Court gave a clean chit to Modi. The Supreme Court appointed SIT committee's report gave a clean chit to Modi (not because there was no evidence whatsoever but because there was no substantial evidence to NAIL him down). For more info, read my OP.

Supreme Court recently rejected a plea to reconstitute the SIT committee which they said was not feasible now.

http://www.siasat.com/english/news/...oning-clean-chit-modi-role-2002-gujarat-riots

What it says:

A bench comprising of Justices H.L. Dattu and S.A. Bobde also declined the plea for reconstituting the Special Investigation Team (SIT) involving retired judges of the apex court on the ground that this option was not good to raise it at this moment. It also turned down the inclusion of a person belonging from the minority community into the SIT.

Now if I am not wrong, the legal proceedings must go on. This is NOT the be all and end all of Modi.

Its like Justice Mudgal report. you can't throw Dhoni, Raina in prison based on report.

I am not sure so I have been searching about it but there is little mention in media. Media is NOT mentioning whether this whole saga is over for Modi or not.

Another Link - Myth Of Modi's clean chit

http://www.sabhlokcity.com/2014/04/...he-supreme-court-has-never-given-adjudicated/

2. To say that this COULD HAVE BEEN due to Modi's lack of administrative ability is being naive.

Why?

I have explained this in full and compete detail in my OP. Check it out. Here's the gist:

a. Police records destroyed.
b. Police officers transfered (some within days) - Others with questionable acts rewarded
c. Haren Pandya death
d. Maya Kodnani conviction (you really think an MLA could do something without the approval of CM) - Something major as this where the CM calls for the army immediately and when they arrive, provides them help with logistics only by the 3rd day by when majority of the violence was done.

Really dude? Knowing the Indian political system, can you honestly can look me in the eye and say that Modi had absolutely no knowledge of his MLA's act (Kodnani) regarding a situation which he deemed important enough to inform the army immediately.

Calling Modi as incapable is being naive. Please check the SIT report wordings itself. Its anything but that. Its just that there is no evidence to directly nail him down.

3. Did we (you, me and everyone) along with the whole media use the same logic when Manu Sharma was acquitted by the lower courts (at first)?

Ok, you may say there was always an option of going to higher court (and that's a fair point) but why did media put so much pressure on getting Manu Sharma's case in higher courts? At THAT point of time, why didn't they accept the court's verdict? You know the story bud.

Here in Modi's case I will accept that with SIT clearing and Supreme court rejecting pleas it makes a compelling case for an outsider to believe Modi could have been not guilty. But that's why I made this post.

You see, laws are designed to make sure non guilty don't get punished even if guilty get away. Or else anyone can get anyone convicted. That's why proof must be 100% solid. For example - Maya Kodnani was convicted NOT JUST based on testimony of people against her but also based on mobile records that showed her whereabouts during the crime.

You wanna vote for Modi based on development, do it. But let's not bring his innocence here. Evidence for establishing truth is different from evidence used in court of law. The former is a shockingly high in case of Modi.

I do get the sincerity of your post but just pointing out stuff.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Simply because Vajpayee or Indira were better leaders than him any day of the week.But between Modi and Rahul Gandhi,its Modi who is better hands down.

But Rahul Gandhi is not the PM candidate. Gandhis don't believe in occupying the PM post. Most likely it would have gone to a Christian or Muslim leader.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

But Rahul Gandhi is not the PM candidate. Gandhis don't believe in occupying the PM post. Most likely it would have gone to a Christian or Muslim leader.

Even if Congress do decide to have another fake PM (assuming they come to power), its pretty evident Rahul is going to have a higher say in everything.

And that thought scares the crap out of everyone including me.

Rahul's interview with Arnab has cleared any doubts reg Rahul's capability.

 

[CricketCartoons]

It would be offtopic, but Indira was one of the worst PMs. She killed the indian economy with her licence raj, and ran the country like a dictator. Giving free hand to her son Sanjay Gandhi who forced sterilized people. The emergency was the blot on indian democracy.

And less said about coward vajpayee the better. He was a wolf in sheep clothing, RSS man posing as a moderate. Gave Masood Azhar to the terrorists on a platter. When Parliament was attacked he started his operation parakram (should be called operation cowardice), when the troops were mobilized at the border and did nothing, and suffered casualties due to war exercises. Is he dead now?

 

[CricketCartoons]

Even if Congress do decide to have another fake PM (assuming they come to power), its pretty evident Rahul is going to have a higher say in everything.

And that thought scares the crap out of everyone including me.

Rahul's interview with Arnab has cleared any doubts reg Rahul's capability.

Rahul is not cunning. He is actually a nice man. Saying this after personally seeing him. Yes, he is not fit to be PM, neither does he claims that he wants to be PM. Congress has a lot of great thinkers, like Pranab Mukherjee and Jairam Ramesh (both are very clean), and some cunning and smart politicians like Sibbal. Compared to that there is intellectual void in BJP. It is a disgrace that Manmohan was not allowed to blossom, and as a result we have an idiot like Modi going to become a PM.

 

[Romali_rotti]

But Rahul Gandhi is not the PM candidate.


Gandhis don't believe in occupying the PM post

Absolutely right, its a lot easier to put a puppet in front of them and have that person dance to their tune, spot on ..



Most likely it would have gone to a Christian or Muslim leader.

Why does it matter what religion the candidate is ? HMMMMMM what exactly are you hinting here ??

...

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Rahul is not cunning. He is actually a nice man. Saying this after personally seeing him. Yes, he is not fit to be PM, neither does he claims that he wants to be PM. Congress has a lot of great thinkers, like Pranab Mukherjee and Jairam Ramesh (both are very clean), and some cunning and smart politicians like Sibbal. Compared to that there is intellectual void in BJP. It is a disgrace that Manmohan was not allowed to blossom, and as a result we have an idiot like Modi going to become a PM.

I never said Rahul was cunning.

The new fake PM from Congress would anyway know that nothing is possible without political power and would want the support of powerful people like Rahul to back him up.

This would automatically make Rahul's views and inputs more valuable. By now everyone in Congress knows the completely fake PM thingy is not going to work. So whichever way we look at it, Congress comes to power (assuming) Rahul will have a say.

Problem is people who have no knowledge but have a say will get easily swayed by bad advices and that's the problem for Sonia Gandhi.

Reg Pranabh Mukheree and Jairam Ramesh - they may be clean but from what I heard:

Pranab Mukherjee restrospective tax on Vodafone destroyed investor confidence in India. Pranab has a grudge on Manmohan who actually didn't want him to be the finance minister.

Dunno the full story.

I heard Jairam Ramesh with his license policies (regarding environmental stuff) created a huge mess.

Sonia Gandhi is not knowledgeable. So strong personalities will mislead her.

Yes, Congress as a party is far more shrewd than BJP so in tough situations, they will play good politics to overcome their problems but when it comes to them governing, its a mess.

They don't have a leader. And the leader they have doesn't have a brain. Or analytical ability required for a leader. At least as of now.

In politics, its never too late.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Why does it matter what religion the candidate is ? HMMMMMM

It matters, as that gives a positive signal to the communities that even they can rise to the top most position.

Just like Obama's election inspired a lot of blacks. The country needs Dalit/Muslim etc PMs to uplift those communities, especially given that the majority of the time it has been a brahmin PM. Of course they should be good leaders on their own accord.

 

[adit_sh]

A few points I would like to raise:

1. I don't think Supreme Court gave a clean chit to Modi. The Supreme Court appointed SIT committee's report gave a clean chit to Modi (not because there was no evidence whatsoever but because there was no substantial evidence to NAIL him down). For more info, read my OP.

Supreme Court recently rejected a plea to reconstitute the SIT committee which they said was not feasible now.

http://www.siasat.com/english/news/...oning-clean-chit-modi-role-2002-gujarat-riots

What it says:



Now if I am not wrong, the legal proceedings must go on. This is NOT the be all and end all of Modi.

Its like Justice Mudgal report. you can't throw Dhoni, Raina in prison based on report.

I am not sure so I have been searching about it but there is little mention in media. Media is NOT mentioning whether this whole saga is over for Modi or not.

Another Link - Myth Of Modi's clean chit

http://www.sabhlokcity.com/2014/04/...he-supreme-court-has-never-given-adjudicated/

2. To say that this COULD HAVE BEEN due to Modi's lack of administrative ability is being naive.

Why?

I have explained this in full and compete detail in my OP. Check it out. Here's the gist:

a. Police records destroyed.
b. Police officers transfered (some within days) - Others with questionable acts rewarded
c. Haren Pandya death
d. Maya Kodnani conviction (you really think an MLA could do something without the approval of CM) - Something major as this where the CM calls for the army immediately and when they arrive, provides them help with logistics only by the 3rd day by when majority of the violence was done.

Really dude? Knowing the Indian political system, can you honestly can look me in the eye and say that Modi had absolutely no knowledge of his MLA's act (Kodnani) regarding a situation which he deemed important enough to inform the army immediately.

Calling Modi as incapable is being naive. Please check the SIT report wordings itself. Its anything but that. Its just that there is no evidence to directly nail him down.

3. Did we (you, me and everyone) along with the whole media use the same logic when Manu Sharma was acquitted by the lower courts (at first)?

Ok, you may say there was always an option of going to higher court (and that's a fair point) but why did media put so much pressure on getting Manu Sharma's case in higher courts? At THAT point of time, why didn't they accept the court's verdict? You know the story bud.

Here in Modi's case I will accept that with SIT clearing and Supreme court rejecting pleas it makes a compelling case for an outsider to believe Modi could have been not guilty. But that's why I made this post.

You see, laws are designed to make sure non guilty don't get punished even if guilty get away. Or else anyone can get anyone convicted. That's why proof must be 100% solid. For example - Maya Kodnani was convicted NOT JUST based on testimony of people against her but also based on mobile records that showed her whereabouts during the crime.

You wanna vote for Modi based on development, do it. But let's not bring his innocence here. Evidence for establishing truth is different from evidence used in court of law. The former is a shockingly high in case of Modi.

I do get the sincerity of your post but just pointing out stuff.

Fair enough. Let him go through legally and if he is found guilty he must be hanged. We are not debating on that.

I just want to reply to you for this : "
Maya Kodnani conviction (you really think an MLA could do something without the approval of CM) - Something major as this where the CM calls for the army immediately and when they arrive, provides them help with logistics only by the 3rd day by when majority of the violence was done.

>>>In UP/bihar Maximum MLAs/MPs does a lot without the knowledge of PM forget about his approval :-(
Chuck that ! Central Ministers does a lot without the knowledge of PM( Coal, 2G etc..) Atleast thats what claimed by our honest PM that he is not aware of anything

Really dude? Knowing the Indian political system, can you honestly can look me in the eye and say that Modi had absolutely no knowledge of his MLA's act (Kodnani) regarding a situation which he deemed important enough to inform the army immediately."

>>> Modi may or may not have the knowledge about his MLA acting in that fashion is purely upto the SC to decide as I had maintained previously. Its not up to us to decide as they have much more proof's, knowledge, and the statement of thousands of people. You must remember - Lies cannot be spoken consistently across testimony of thousands of people.

Anyway let it be a battle of belief vs truth and whatever be the case it should come out. If Supreme Court does not find him guilty then that will be the case. Your example of the cases was not from supreme court so lets not debate that.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Dunno the full story.

I heard Jairam Ramesh with his license policies (regarding environmental stuff) created a huge mess.

Hey, this statement caught my eye and it needs to be corrected that I am not bothered about the rest of your post.

Jairam Ramesh did not give clearance to many projects because of environmental reasons, and that was a good thing. That is why he was moved from that post. I have personal experience with him, and this guy thinks nothing but the best for the country. If you have seen, he has sometimes given comments against Rahul or other leaders but had to backtrack. This man is brilliant, he is just not given enough powers to implement his policies.

 

[ahamedirshad123]

Yeah true but what I meant is he isn't going to harm muslims in any way.
After 2002 riots,there has not been a single riot there that is proof enough.
Plus what can he do if rss and vhp are making stupid statements?
Atmost he can disown them, can't hold their mouth for them.

1. A govt that cannot protect its own people should not stay in power even for a minute: Modi

2. Those people who said 12 Yrs there has never been riots in Gujarat must read this

http://m.timesofindia.com/india/Vad...tary-help/articleshow/1513555.cms?referral=PM

The situation in three of the six police station areas in the city was "extremely sensitive.'' Strict vigil was being kept there as the next 24 hours were "very vital'' for controlling the situation, he said. Intelligence reports had referred to the threat of a flare-up of communal violence in Vadodara.

http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/army-deployed-in-vadodara/article3128471.ece

Having said that, I will surely accept him as a PM,if he is elected. And also He will be rotten in hell (along with Talibans, Hafeez Syed and co ), Insha'Allah!

 

[CricketCartoons]

1. A govt that cannot protect its own people should not stay in power even for a minute: Modi

2. Those people who said 12 Yrs there has never been riots in Gujarat must read this

http://m.timesofindia.com/india/Vad...tary-help/articleshow/1513555.cms?referral=PM



http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/army-deployed-in-vadodara/article3128471.ece

The devil must be given his due. That link shows Modi in a positive light.

The govt cannot guarantee that there will be no riots. What it must guarantee that it will quickly control the situation if it happens, and your link shows that Modi quickly calmed the tension with only 6 casualties. He must be lauded for that.

 

[ahamedirshad123]

But Modistanis say there were no riots since 2002.

 

[ahamedirshad123]

May God Please save this country from this patRIOTer!

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Fair enough. Let him go through legally and if he is found guilty he must be hanged. We are not debating on that.

I just want to reply to you for this : "
Maya Kodnani conviction (you really think an MLA could do something without the approval of CM) - Something major as this where the CM calls for the army immediately and when they arrive, provides them help with logistics only by the 3rd day by when majority of the violence was done.

>>>In UP/bihar Maximum MLAs/MPs does a lot without the knowledge of PM forget about his approval :-(
Chuck that ! Central Ministers does a lot without the knowledge of PM( Coal, 2G etc..) Atleast thats what claimed by our honest PM that he is not aware of anything

Really dude? Knowing the Indian political system, can you honestly can look me in the eye and say that Modi had absolutely no knowledge of his MLA's act (Kodnani) regarding a situation which he deemed important enough to inform the army immediately."

>>> Modi may or may not have the knowledge about his MLA acting in that fashion is purely upto the SC to decide as I had maintained previously. Its not up to us to decide as they have much more proof's, knowledge, and the statement of thousands of people. You must remember - Lies cannot be spoken consistently across testimony of thousands of people.

Anyway let it be a battle of belief vs truth and whatever be the case it should come out. If Supreme Court does not find him guilty then that will be the case. Your example of the cases was not from supreme court so lets not debate that.

1. Are you comparing MP action under a powerless PM (Manmohan) with the action of MLA under an authoritative CM like Modi (and Jayalalitha)?

You mess up and they will throw you out. They govern with an IRON FIST. Nothing and I mean nothing major can be done without their approval. I hope I don't have to further elaborate this. Common knowledge.

2. I suggest you read my main post here and you will see the whole point. SIT report itself gives so many instances that point to Modi government's guilt.

Supreme Court logic for NOT convicting Modi (if they do) is: Lack of persecutable evidence.

They don't have to explain about Haren Pandya's death.

They don't have to explain about police transfers (are you saying powerful MLA's in Modi government did it and Modi had no knowledge)

They don't have to explain about police record destructions (are you saying police had a grudge on muslim, acted against them and then deleted the records).

They don't have to give explanation for Maya Kodnani conviction, her elevation to minister under a powerful CM (are you saying say Kodnani lied to Modi till now and Modi was taken for a ride by her - really).

Supreme Court will NOT pronounce someone guilty in the absence of DIRECT proof.

Usually in cases where evidences like this are piled, there would be solid prosecutable evidence. But in this case it isn't there. The police records are destroyed and some of the people in that meeting with Modi CLAIM LOSS OF MEMORY.

They don't have to answer any of this.

That's how laws work.

But as a human, you have to answer it.

Also SIT was formed in 2008-2009 to probe a riot that happened in 2002. Nanavati commission (appointed then) is still going on.

http://www.sabhlokcity.com/2014/04/...ission-for-years-he-wants-money-nothing-else/

Nothing dodgy about it. Its so perfectly clean. Isn't it?

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Hey, this statement caught my eye and it needs to be corrected that I am not bothered about the rest of your post.

Jairam Ramesh did not give clearance to many projects because of environmental reasons, and that was a good thing. That is why he was moved from that post. I have personal experience with him, and this guy thinks nothing but the best for the country. If you have seen, he has sometimes given comments against Rahul or other leaders but had to backtrack. This man is brilliant, he is just not given enough powers to implement his policies.

Ok then fair enough. People say his was too harsh. I dunno.

As I said in my post, its what i heard. Not very knowledgeable in these regard.

Can you please answer the Pranab's Vodafone tax that many say destroyed foreign investor's confidence in India.

Would like to know your views on that.

Why don't you read full posts? It will take 10-15 seconds at most.

 

[Romali_rotti]

It matters, as that gives a positive signal to the communities that even they can rise to the top most position.

Just like Obama's election inspired a lot of blacks. The country needs Dalit/Muslim etc PMs to uplift those communities, especially given that the majority of the time it has been a brahmin PM. Of course they should be good leaders on their own accord.

Its disturbing you separated PM candidates by religion, this is the problem with Pakistan as well, viewing through religious mindset......

 

[CricketCartoons]

Ok then fair enough. People say his was too harsh. I dunno.

As I said in my post, its what i heard. Not very knowledgeable in these regard.

Can you please answer the Pranab's Vodafone tax that many say destroyed foreign investor's confidence in India.

Would like to know your views on that.

Why don't you read full posts? It will take 10-15 seconds at most.

The vodafone tax issue is bit tricky. That is why a lengthy court case has been going on.

Now, vodafone bought Hutch and said it won't pay the tax because the deal was not in India. They said their deal was done through Cayman islands (which has no tax laws like Mauritous I guess). Now, I am not an economics expert (am a techie/maths guy), but even I can say that they should pay tax somewhere. They just cant pay zero tax by using loopholes.

Foreign investement is needed, but it cannot be done at the cost of allowing them to cheat the system. It sends the strong message that play by ethics if you want to do business in India. I think Pranab da did the right thing.

Btw, Pranab da is such a workaholic, that he works close to 15 hours a day. When he goes abroad, the bureaucrats with him complain (in private circles) that they don't even get time for sightseeing. Of course this was when he was Finance minister (his favourite ministry).

 

[CricketCartoons]

Its disturbing you separated PM candidates by religion, this is the problem with Pakistan as well, viewing through religious mindset......

I guess you missed where I said that the leaders should be good in their own accord (that is despite religion).

If majority of the time the PM has been a brahmin, then something is def wrong. It just can't be attributed to coincidence. It shows that a particular minority has more chance to reaching the top level, for whatever reasons, and that is not good. It reinforces the mentality that some are entitled to rule, and others are lesser citizens. It is very simplistic and disingenuous to say one must see them only as PMs and ignore their backgrounds.

I am hoping for the day when a Dalit becomes the PM of india, that would be India's awakening.

 

[battler]

When people say they want 'dalit' to become the PM then does it not amount to discrimination of other castes?
A dalit or whichever caste a person comes from should only become PM, if he has a proven record of governance and not otherwise.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

When people say they want 'dalit' to become the PM then does it not amount to discrimination of other castes?
A dalit or whichever caste a person comes from should only become PM, if he has a proven record of governance and not otherwise.

No its not cos because of the context in which Cricket Cartoon is making that statement.

He ain't saying a Dalit must become PM of India. He is saying a Dalit becoming PM of India (via fair means) will truly show India has awakened from its caste system.

Personally, I absolutely don't agree with Cricket Cartoon's reservation views but reg this topic, I get from where he is coming from.

 

[battler]

No its not cos because of the context in which Cricket Cartoon is making that statement.

He ain't saying a Dalit must become PM of India. He is saying a Dalit becoming PM of India (via fair means) will truly show India has awakened from its caste system.

Personally, I absolutely don't agree with Cricket Cartoon's reservation views but reg this topic, I get from where he is coming from.

Yeah but he should have credentials and a proven record of governance right?
And I'm applying this to all castes.
I wouldn't want just anyone to become the PM solely on the basis of his caste even if he is elected fairly.

 

[Ambi]

Ambi bro, I love those reactions. Love being hated.

lol It's a chance to expose mental midgets

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Yeah but he should have credentials and a proven record of governance right?
And I'm applying this to all castes.
I wouldn't want just anyone to become the PM solely on the basis of his caste even if he is elected fairly.

Yes he means having that if a Dalit becomes PM.

Even if a Dalit is elected fairly by the people but he is crappy in governance, it will show that India has moved on from its caste system. Of course that wouldn't be a good thing for the country but Cricket Cartoon made the comment to convey a point reg caste discrimination that is currently in place. Of course its understood that he meant a good capable Dalit.

 

[battler]

^ Btw isn't modi from a lower caste?

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

^ Btw isn't modi from a lower caste?

Dunno.

 

[Navdeep Srivastava]

Dunno.

yes, he is from the backward class and from poor finanacial background.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

yes, he is from the backward class and from poor finanacial background.

I knew about the poor financial background.

Didn't know about the backward caste.

Thanks for the info.

 

[CricketCartoons]

yes, he is from the backward class and from poor finanacial background.

He is OBC, not a Dalit.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

He is OBC, not a Dalit.

Is Dalit considered lower caste than OBC?

Which is considered to be the lowest caste in India?

I just know SC, ST, OBC, Dalit - don't know the hierarchy.

 

[Navdeep Srivastava]

He is OBC, not a Dalit.

I clearly said backward caste , not dalit

 

[CricketCartoons]

I clearly said backward caste , not dalit

I know. Wrong quote.

By the way, his caste has no relevance because he is fighting on the plank of Hindutva. BJP walas will vote for any dalit (even a Muslim) if he fights on the same plank. There is a reason Abdul Kalam, the ex president is a favourite of BJP walas. Who wouldn't love a Geeta reading Muslim president who shies away from taking a stand on more pressing issues.

 

[kaayal]

To me the ideological difference here is that for Muslims, the priority of religion is more than the country. I am happy to correct myself if it is not the case.

Lol why would that ideology conflict with your views since you belong to the majority who agree with it.

And about the bolded part. Islam is our personal belief and it has the highest priority in our life. So what?? India has given us the right to follow any religion and we are doing nothing anti-national. Never ever question our patriotism brother.

If it was about religion,i would have voted for the Muslim league in my constituency but didn't, because of the same ideological difference with that of BJP.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Lol why would that ideology conflict with your views since you belong to the majority who agree with it.

And about the bolded part. Islam is our personal belief and it has the highest priority in our life. So what?? India has given us the right to follow any religion and we are doing nothing anti-national. Never ever question our patriotism brother.

If it was about religion,i would have voted for the Muslim league in my constituency but didn't, because of the same ideological difference with that of BJP.

sorry Kaayal, I will question your patriotism. Because for a Hindu patriotism is assumed by default, but for Muslims, they have to prove it.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

I know. Wrong quote.

By the way, his caste has no relevance because he is fighting on the plank of Hindutva. BJP walas will vote for any dalit (even a Muslim) if he fights on the same plank. There is a reason Abdul Kalam, the ex president is a favourite of BJP walas. Who wouldn't love a Geeta reading Muslim president who shies away from taking a stand on more pressing issues.

First you argue that there is something wrong with the system because most prime ministers are brahmin and not enough backward castes/obc's and now you claim modi being an obc is irrelevant because he stands for hindutva. So only a dalit prime minister who supports minoritarian politics is acceptable :Yousuf. Dalits form around 15% of the population and a large number of dalits still lack educational qualifications/resources etc. Oh and america had slavery for 80 years, segregation for another hundred and a black president after 220 years of democracy. A dalit has already been president in India in case you haven't noticed and that was because he was a meritorious individual just like Obama. Until dalits on average have the same level of achievements as the brahmins do they simply will not produce great statesman,scientists etc which is why it is important IMO to set up dalit schools and colleges with this purpose in mind.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

I know. Wrong quote.

By the way, his caste has no relevance because he is fighting on the plank of Hindutva. BJP walas will vote for any dalit (even a Muslim) if he fights on the same plank. There is a reason Abdul Kalam, the ex president is a favourite of BJP walas. Who wouldn't love a Geeta reading Muslim president who shies away from taking a stand on more pressing issues.

First you argue that there is something wrong with the system because most prime ministers are brahmin and not enough backward castes/obc's and now you claim modi being an obc is irrelevant because he stands for hindutva. So only a dalit prime minister who supports minoritarian politics is acceptable :Yousuf. Dalits form around 15% of the population and a large number of dalits still lack educational qualifications/resources etc. Oh and america had slavery for 80 years, segregation for another hundred and a black president after 220 years of democracy. A dalit has already been president in India in case you haven't noticed and that was because he was a meritorious individual just like Obama. Until dalits on average have the same level of achievements as the brahmins do they simply will not produce great statesman,scientists etc which is why it is important IMO to set up dalit schools and colleges with this purpose in mind. You just can't start gifting important positions just because they ate from a minority group. Nobody in america would want 50 cent to become president just because he is black.

 

[CricketCartoons]

First you argue that there is something wrong with the system because most prime ministers are brahmin and not enough backward castes/obc's and now you claim modi being an obc is irrelevant because he stands for hindutva. So only a dalit prime minister who supports minoritarian politics is acceptable :Yousuf. Dalits form around 15% of the population and a large number of dalits still lack educational qualifications/resources etc. Oh and america had slavery for 80 years, segregation for another hundred and a black president after 220 years of democracy. A dalit has already been president in India in case you haven't noticed and that was because he was a meritorious individual just like Obama. Until dalits on average have the same level of achievements as the brahmins do they simply will not produce great statesman,scientists etc which is why it is important IMO to set up dalit schools and colleges with this purpose in mind. You just can't start gifting important positions just because they ate from a minority group. Nobody in america would want 50 cent to become president just because he is black.

Few mistakes in your post.

Hindutva is narrow minoritarian politics. It is the elite and the middle class which would want a nuclear weapon, a temple in ayodhya, a befitting reply to Pakistan and the like. Majoritarian politics would be about education, employment, poverty reduction, sanitation cutting across communities (whether hindus, muslims, dalits).

Yes, a Dalit was a token President, not a PM.

Agree with you on reservation, that Dalits need, sorry, deserve reservations in education and employment to reach their full potential.

Never said that this post should be gifted based on caste/community. I only said that the day India chooses a Dalit PM, would be the day we can say we have buried the menace of caste system. And that would take decades.

 

[kaayal]

sorry Kaayal, I will question your patriotism. Because for a Hindu patriotism is assumed by default, but for Muslims, they have to prove it.

Lol then deal with it.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Few mistakes in your post.

Hindutva is narrow minoritarian politics. It is the elite and the middle class which would want a nuclear weapon, a temple in ayodhya, a befitting reply to Pakistan and the like. Majoritarian politics would be about education, employment, poverty reduction, sanitation cutting across communities (whether hindus, muslims, dalits).

Yes, a Dalit was a token President, not a PM.

Agree with you on reservation, that Dalits need, sorry, deserve reservations in education and employment to reach their full potential.

Never said that this post should be gifted based on caste/community. I only said that the day India chooses a Dalit PM, would be the day we can say we have buried the menace of caste system. And that would take decades.

And that is a mistaken assumption. You think discrimination against dalits will stop when we have a Dalit PM? Discrimination will only stop when we collectively as Indians do not think in terms of caste anymore and it is completely eliminated from our psyche. I wasn't talking about reservation per se. I was talking about the government providing basic facilities and infrastructure to dalit children so that they can compete with upper caste/upper class kids for employment/higher education etc. On the basis of MERIT. Reservation will perpetuate the caste system and engender reverse discrimination. Defeats the whole purpose IMO.

 

[battler]

Agree with Nikhil Cric here.

 

[CricketCartoons]

And that is a mistaken assumption. You think discrimination against dalits will stop when we have a Dalit PM? Discrimination will only stop when we collectively as Indians do not think in terms of caste anymore and it is completely eliminated from our psyche. I wasn't talking about reservation per se. I was talking about the government providing basic facilities and infrastructure to dalit children so that they can compete with upper caste/upper class kids for employment/higher education etc. On the basis of MERIT. Reservation will perpetuate the caste system and engender reverse discrimination. Defeats the whole purpose IMO.

You assumed wrong. A Dalit PM will be the effect, and not the cause of end of caste discrimination. It will be a seal that we have truly buried this inhuman system.

 

[Ambi]

Lol why would that ideology conflict with your views since you belong to the majority who agree with it.

And about the bolded part. Islam is our personal belief and it has the highest priority in our life. So what?? India has given us the right to follow any religion and we are doing nothing anti-national. Never ever question our patriotism brother.

If it was about religion,i would have voted for the Muslim league in my constituency but didn't, because of the same ideological difference with that of BJP.

lol don't make false claims, you guys were involved in plenty of anti-national activities

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

You assumed wrong. A Dalit PM will be the effect, and not the cause of end of caste discrimination. It will be a seal that we have truly buried this inhuman system.

"Not necessarily" is his argument.

Makes sense.

Azam Khan is treated like a God in SP circles.

How are regular Muslims treated by SP?

Like crap.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Lol why would that ideology conflict with your views since you belong to the majority who agree with it.

And about the bolded part. Islam is our personal belief and it has the highest priority in our life. So what?? India has given us the right to follow any religion and we are doing nothing anti-national. Never ever question our patriotism brother.

If it was about religion,i would have voted for the Muslim league in my constituency but didn't, because of the same ideological difference with that of BJP.

No one questions patriotism of Indian Muslims except a few nutters.The problem is that on PP you will find many Pakistanis saying that Indian Muslims are supporters of Pakistan because they share a common religion.

Indian Muslims lover their religion and they love their Country both.And both are not mutually exclusive.

 

[adit_sh]

No one questions patriotism of Indian Muslims except a few nutters.The problem is that on PP you will find many Pakistanis saying that Indian Muslims are supporters of Pakistan because they share a common religion.

Indian Muslims lover their religion and they love their Country both.And both are not mutually exclusive.

thanks for clarifying......my point was bound to get misinterpreted as I suspected.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Indian Muslims lover their religion and they love their Country both.And both are not mutually exclusive.

But Pakistanis may bend over backwards to prove otherwise .....

 

[Cochin_wala]

RSS is creating problems. their long cherished idea is to topple democracy for Raam rajya(Hindu rashtra). Jains, Sikhs, Buddists, Christians, Muslims all have a problem with it. India is not Pakistan or Israel to form a theocratic country. I know, unofficially these Hindus will whisper to me, the "Muslim threat". but, whatever I find, RSS and Saffron terrorist groups are no less than Radical Islamists. According to a Swayam sevak, "This is the best time to form Hindu Rashtra, Modi can make our dream happen". Don't you fascists like the genocide of Muslims in Godhra? your views are flawed multiple ways. BJP's Cyber wing or Internet propagandists cannot influence rational people.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Ram rajya cannot be established by anyone let alone modi. Even vajpayee could not establish it. And the RSS's influence on the average Hindu is overestimated. Bajrang Dal,Shiv Sena etc. have extremist views I agree and are known to have caused a lot of trouble. You'd be hard pushed to find any evidence of wrongdoing by the RSS. Are they an organisation which stands for Hindus? Yes they are but Hindu organisation s are not all terrorist/extremist.

 

[Romali_rotti]

RSS is creating problems. their long cherished idea is to topple democracy for Raam rajya(Hindu rashtra). Jains, Sikhs, Buddists, Christians, Muslims all have a problem with it. India is not Pakistan or Israel to form a theocratic country. I know, unofficially these Hindus will whisper to me, the "Muslim threat". but, whatever I find, RSS and Saffron terrorist groups are no less than Radical Islamists. According to a Swayam sevak, "This is the best time to form Hindu Rashtra, Modi can make our dream happen". Don't you fascists like the genocide of Muslims in Godhra? your views are flawed multiple ways. BJP's Cyber wing or Internet propagandists cannot influence rational people.

No more aunty Sonia ...

 

[loves_cricket]

2002 riots are a huge black blot on India’s history, People killed were all INDIANS.
All the inquiries were carried out by a govt. which is bitterly, opposed to Mr Modi
Since 2002 Mr Modi was elected CM for three terms, NOT a single riot took place in Gujarat.
Do you think Congress govt. will let go Mr Modi unpunished? They would love to put him behind the bars on slimmest evidence.

 

[srh]

Amazing post by OP. Narendra Modi is guilty as hell if not in courts of this World then Insha Allah in the court of our Creator after this World.

OP will make an excellent lawyer.

 

[Sachin85]

Its funny to note how some scream Modi was not guilty the moment SIT report came in.

They don't want to check anything or refer anything even though 1000's upon 1000's of people from all religions swear Modi's role in 2002.

But the moment someone shows that Modi is very much guilty but escaped due to lack of prosecutable evidence, they want get every little reference right.

Double standards, eh?

And here's what makes it even better:

And when given facts, they run away.

Yes, we all trust our judicial system so we don't question their reports but in rare cases like this - where was this curiosity to cross check when Modi was let off in the SIT report despite huge red flags around him?

This is the kind of audience I see commenting about Modi's innocence in ibnlive.com, timesofindia, etc.

Note: Not directed at the Indian posters here with whom I have a difference of opinion. Just people who take part in Zanjeer type arguments.

Who do you suggest we vote for? Beggars can't be choosers.

67 years after independence, 60 of those years under Congress rule, we have more than a million children dying every year just from diarrhea. http://www.unicef.org/india/health_491.htm

Should we vote for the same Congress again?

A million deaths a year just because of diarrhea. But nobody cares because it kills both Hindu children and Muslim children without discriminating.

The fact is that the corruption and incompetence of the Congress government has claimed more lives than communal violence ever will.

Does this mean what Modi did was ok? Of course not. He has the blood of thousands on his hands and nobody can vote for him with a clear conscience.

But what option do we have?

Please don't say AAP. Kejriwal himself has said there is no way they will get enough seats to form the government. In his hurry for power he threw away the opportunity he had in Delhi. 5 years of good governance by him in Delhi and I would have definitely voted for him next elections.

We do not have any options. He might be evil, but he is the lesser of the two evils.

 

[Sachin85]

Not everyone voting for Modi is voting for him because they want to kill Muslims. Its ludicrous to even think so.

15% of Muslims in Gujarat vote for BJP. 8-10% in other states.

Are they all suicidal?

The public is pushed towards Modi because everybody is fed up with the Congress. They have been in power for 60 years and look at the state the country is in.

 

[Sachin85]

The western media commenting on Modi is just hilarious. Bush and Blair killed millions of innocent people and are now enjoying their retirement. Is there any effort being made to bring them to justice?