‘No larger conspiracy behind Gujarat riots’: SC rejects Zakia Jafri plea against clean chit to Modi

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‘No larger conspiracy behind Gujarat riots’: SC rejects Zakia Jafri plea against clean chit to Modi

Before I even say a word, I must mention this:

I am sorry to start another Modi thread. But since I feel this is some very important information, I think it would best to have it in a separate thread.

A few days back, I was involved in a discussion regarding whether Modi was guilty in 2002 riots or not.

My view has been simple: In case of overwhelming evidence (word of people from different communities, police officers, etc) it is one of those cases where a court order may not tell you what is true and what is false SIMPLY because laws are designed in a way where proof has to be 100% solid.

Quite a few posters didn't agree with my premise (an opinion which they are entitled to) but since a few of them asked me for more details, here's one comprehensive one:

The SIT (Special Investigation Team) was established by Supreme court on 2008 to investigate the riots that happened in 2002. The SIT report gave him the clean chit based on its investigations. A local magistrate court accepted it. It even rejected a plea against its probe in Dec 2013. Recently the Supreme Court recently rejected a plea against the probe of SIT pertaining to this case.

I am not a legal expert so I don’t know whether this is the final thing or there are legal proceedings to go on from here.

Anyways moving on:

Here are some findings of the SIT report:

a. It found the speeches of N Modi objectionable and that Modi had a communal mindset, travelling 300 kilometres to Godhra but not visiting any relief camps that housed the internally displaced Muslims, victims of reprisal killings post Godhra until 6.3.2002.

b. It found it questionable that bodies of the unfortunate Godhra victims were handed over to a non-government person, Jiadeep Patel of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) who is currently facing trial in the Naroda Gaam massacre case;

c. It found that Saneev Bhatt an officer of the State Intelligence, Gujarat had opined that he attended the controversial meeting at the chief minister's residence indicating that illegal and objectionable instructions were given.

d. It accepted that Police Officers like RB Sreekumar, Rahul Sharma, Himanshu Bhatt and Samiullah Ansari who had performed their tasks legally had been penalised and persecuted by the Modi regime and those who had buckled under the illegal and unconstitutional instructions had been favoured consistently;

e. It however still concluded that there is no prosecutable evidence against the chief minister


http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?286929

If you were to ask – “How is this possible” then you need to understand how laws work when it comes to proof that can be used to persecute. Anyways, I am just getting warmed up. Let’s move on to look at the BIG PICTURE and then come back to everything.

Before I move on, I want to give you an snippet from an article that EXPLAINS my viewpoint in a way that I never could.

http://www.kractivist.org/modi-not-enough-evidence-to-convict-is-the-new-clean-chit-nomore/

Jeopardy question: 10,000 red flags pointing to murder but no smoking gun.

Answer: Clean chit baby!

Let’s say you’re selecting a domestic worker for your home – a chef… a chauffeur… or a gardener perhaps for your backyard. Along comes Mr. Qualified with an impressive resume of achievements in cooking, driving, or spadework. Impressed as you are, you run a background check to see if he has a criminal history. You find that he has no convictions… but wait, what’s this you see? Dozens of criminal cases have been filed against this man for abetting murder of over a thousand human beings and other supporting offenses. Most have been dropped or dismissed for lack of evidence. Few are still pending in courts. Then there is the testimony of thousands that lays blame on him… realms upon realms of accusations, incriminatory blogs and journalistic pieces. There are secretly taped videos of folks confessing to first hand seeing his involvement in the murders. There are credible witnesses of his transgression that have mysteriously been killed.

You’re aghast and dazed absorbing this information when the door-bell rings. This man stops by again asking if his role is confirmed. You peer into his eyes incredulously. He is perceptive and realizes you’re on to him. He flashes back an assuring smile telling you to ignore all the noise, and to focus on the “clean chit”. He asks you to focus on the awesome Chicken Kadhai he makes or his driving skills that enable him to circle your building’s compound in reverse while brushing his teeth. “Your kitchen and your car are safe with me. You are safe with me. The negative information you may have heard about me is all a ploy of your previous worker who is jealous of me. You’ve had him for so many years, give me a chance…” You begin shutting the door and politely ask him to leave and make up an excuse about already having found someone (don’t want to anger him lest he come back at night to slit your throat”).

You’re comparing him to the previous gardener who was kinda slow and rambled when you asked him pointed questions, and whose uncles and cousins stole a thousand bucks from your unattended wallet, but god what a no contest when comparing the two?
Surely we all agree on this hypothetical scenario and surely we all would feel relieved at having dodged a bullet. “God knows if he is really guilty, but no ****ing way I’m taking a chance with all those allegations”.


That’s what is the case with Modi.

Now someone can easily say Modi is a politician and many hold a grudge against him so the there would be frivolous lawsuits against him which a common man would never have to face. Yes, that’s true but at the same time look at the number of lawsuits, the number red flags (which I am going to talk about), opinions of people from all religions, police officer statements (I didn’t recall any Muslims there), etc. Now do you honestly look me in the eye and tell me EVERY SINGLE ON OF THESE (including many opinions of Hindus) is a Congress created scheme?

Think about it.

Main Red Flag 1 - Red Flag 1: Haren Pandya, murdered BJP minister who was going to testify against Modi

pandya+mug.jpg


1. Read the full story here - http://kractivist.org/modi-not-enough-evidence-to-convict-is-the-new-clean-chit-nomore/

2. On March 26, 2003, Haren Pandya was assassinated and his father Vithalbhai Pandya said that his son’s assassination was “a political murder”. Speaking to Tehelka, he blamed Modi for Pandya’s murder. So embittered was Vithalbhai that he contested the Gandhinagar Lok Sabha against LK Advani, but lost.

http://archive.tehelka.com/story_main11.asp?filename=ts031205Who_Killed.asp

Human Logic: Man, this is dodgy as hell. One he dies. Two, his father claims it’s a political murder and goes on to fight a Lok Sabha seat against LK Advani and loses. Modi does look guilty.

Court Conviction Logic: Yes, this looks dodgy but you can’t use this to make an inference that Modi is guilty. No solid evidence to nail Modi.

Main Red flag 2 – Mayaben Kodnani, life sentence serving convicted mass murderer and Modi’s minister.

mayaben.jpg


1. Read the full story here - http://kractivist.org/modi-not-enough-evidence-to-convict-is-the-new-clean-chit-nomore/

2. When the verdict was announced, Kodnani was asked by the court if she had anything to say, she said the charges against her were politically motivated. She and her husband, who is also a doctor, were in tears when she was convicted. Kodnani's lawyers have opposed the prosecution's plea for capital punishment on the grounds that her husband was not in good health and her son was studying abroad.

http://www.firstpost.com/politics/n...to-convict-436232.html?utm_source=ref_article

3. After a 37-month trial, the court observed Kodnani was "tremendously favoured by the then investigating agencies (before the Supreme Court-appointed SIT took over). All care, at the cost of the duty of the investigating officer and even the interest of the victims, was taken to see to it that Kodnani's involvement does not come on the books. This, in fact, comes in the way to believe that Kodnani was ever a victim of any politics."

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...-Kodnani/articleshow/16160581.cms?referral=PM

Human Logic: What the freaking hell was that? BJP MLA (in 2002) who then gets a minister post (in 2007). Gujarat government does its best to save her. Yeah, right. Nothing dodgy here. Add this with the prev fact and Modi looks to be guilty.

Court Conviction Logic: Mayaben Kodnani was found guilty and she was sentenced to life imprisonment. But that can’t be used to automatically infer that Modi is guilty. No solid evidence to nail Modi.


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...-Kodnani/articleshow/16160581.cms?referral=PM

Main Red flag 3 – Complete destruction of police records from the riots (SIT Report)

face+of+godhra+riots.jpg


“The Gujarat government has reportedly destroyed the police wireless communication of the period pertaining to the riots.” It adds, “No records, documentations or minutes of the crucial law and order meetings held by the government during the riots had been kept.” (Page 13, SIT Report to SC, May 2010)

http://archive.tehelka.com/story_main48.asp?filename=Ne120211coverstory.asp

Human Logic: This guy is the CM the most powerful person in the state. CM’s control police in every state (common knowledge). Man, I give up. Guilty.

Court Conviction Logic: Its unfortunate but can’t use such things to automatically infer that Modi is guilty. No solid evidence to nail Modi.

Main Red flag 4 – Police officers and their views

rahul-modi1.jpg


“The Gujarat government has reportedly destroyed the police wireless communication of the period pertaining to the riots.” It adds, “No records, documentations or minutes of the crucial law and order meetings held by the government during the riots had been kept.” (Page 13, SIT Report to SC, May 2010)

The SIT discovered that the state police had carried out patently shoddy investigations in the Naroda Patiya and Gulberg Society massacre cases. It deliberately overlooked the cell phone records of Sangh Parivar members and BJP leaders involved in the riots — prominent among them were the Gujarat VHP president Jaideep Patel and BJP minister Maya Kodnani. If these records had been analysed and used as evidence, it could have established their complicity. (Pages 101-105)


http://archive.tehelka.com/story_main48.asp?filename=Ne120211coverstory.asp

The police who did take corrective action against rioting Hindu mobs were shunted out. Inexplicably, the SIT claims this is the government’s prerogative

Rahul Sharma, an IPS officer of 1992 batch, is just one example. Superintendent of police, Bhavnagar district, in 2002, Sharma had done a commendable job of controlling the murderous riots by taking swift action against those Hindu leaders who were inciting communal passions. But Sharma told the SIT that three days after he had protected a mosque from being torched by a rioting Hindu mob and saved the lives of dozens of Muslim children, he was transferred out to an insignificant posting. Though Zadaphia had called and commended him, he had said the ratio of Hindus and Muslims killed in police firing was not “proper”, i.e., “that is more number of deaths of Hindus than Muslims.” Soon after, he was transferred. (Page 33)

Another police officer, Vivek Srivastava, a 1989 batch IPS officer, who was superintendent of police of Kutch district was shunted out after he arrested a BJP leader on charges of assaulting a Muslim family. According to the report, “Srivastava stated that he got a few phone calls from the office of home minister and chief minister asking him about the details of the case and whether there was adequate evidence against all the accused to which he confirmed that sufficient evidence was available. Srivastava was transferred in the last week of March 2002 and posted as deputy commissioner, Prohibition & Excise, Ahmedabad Zone.” (Page 33)

Another IPS officer Himanshu Bhatt, who was SP, Banaskantha, was transferred to the State Intelligence Bureau at Gandhinagar in March 2002. Bhatt had initiated action against a sub-inspector who had assisted a rioting mob. As it happened the sub-inspector concerned had important political connections and was not only reinstated but also allowed to resume his duty at the same police station. Bhatt has since left the country and settled abroad. The SIT couldn’t examine Bhatt.
Satish Chandra Verma, who was DIG, border range at Kutch-Bhuj during the riots, had issued a formal order to arrest a sitting BJP MLA, Shankar Chaudhary, for being involved in the riots and killing two Muslims. He was transferred soon after as the principal of the State Reserve Police Training Centre, Junagadh. (Page 34)

Inquiry officer Malhotra notes that none of these officers, however, would admit that they were victimised. All of them stated that transfers were the prerogative of the government. Malhotra concludes that these transfers appear to be ‘unusual’ and ‘fishy’ but stops there. Raghavan too admits to their controversial and questionable nature. But, surprisingly, neither of them comes to the obvious conclusion that this could be one of the reasons for further investigation into the State’s collusion.

The SIT admits that police officers who allowed riots to fester were rewarded with lucrative postings. But fails to come to a logical conclusion

In a brazen statement, as upright officers were clipped for doing their duty by the Modi government, derelict officers, who had made a mockery of their uniforms and the trust reposed in them by society, were applauded and rewarded. MK Tandon, who was the joint commissioner of police of Sector 2, Ahmedabad and in whose region more than 200 Muslims were butchered to death, was given the important posting of IG, Surat Range, soon after the riots. In July 2005, he was appointed to the post of ADGP (law & order) at the state police headquarters, a position with statewide jurisdiction. Tandon retired from the same position.

The SIT has found that Tandon deliberately didn’t respond to distress calls from Gulberg Society and Naroda Gaon and Naroda Patiya, where some of the most gruesome massacres were underway. Instead, he got bogus cases registered in other parts of Ahmedabad to justify the presence of himself and his police force in those areas rather than Gulberg and Naroda. The SIT has also found that Tandon was in telephonic contact with Jaideep Patel and Mayaben Kodnani — the architect of massacres at Naroda Gaon and Naroda Patiya.

PB Gondia, deputy to Tandon, was DCP Zone IV at the time. He now enjoys the powerful post of inspector general of police of State CID. In his report, Malhotra says: “In my view Gondia virtually ran away from Naroda Patiya at 1420 hours when the situation was very serious and virtually uncontrollable and also did not reach Gulberg Society despite the distress calls.” The SIT also found that, like Tandon, Gondia was in regular telephonic contact with Kodnani and Jaideep Patel.

In addition to these police officers, there were other controversial bureaucrats who have remained in high government favour despite their black track records. Among them are G Subba Rao, the then chief secretary; Ashok Narayan, the then ACS (Home); PK Mishra, the then PS to Modi; PC Pande, the then Ahmedabad CP; Deepak Swaroop, the then IGP, Vadodara Range; K Nityanandam, the then secretary (Home); Rakesh Asthana (presently commissioner of police of Vadodara city) and DG Vanzara (now in jail for staging encounter killings).

But despite this overwhelming evidence of bias and prejudice, recorded in its own report, the SIT has concluded lamely that transfers and postings are the prerogative of the government.

If not for Rahul Sharma’s investigation of Naroda Patiya as part of which he collected the call records, today Mayaben Kodnani would not have been behind the bars. Jan Sangharsh Manch analyzed the call records collected by Rahul Sharma, and it was on the basis of JSM’s analysis of Maya Kodnani’s location, it was revealed that she was in Naroda Patiya when the Hindu mobs attacked while Kodnani herself insisted that she wasn’t present in Naroda Patiya.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...id-to-shield-Kodnani/articleshow/16160581.cms

Human Logic: Ummmm…..I feel like saying guilty.

Court Conviction Logic: As per law, Maya Kodnani has been convicted. Even her conviction was based on deduction of her location during the riots. She is punished but we can’t infer that just because an MLA did something, the CM would have been involved. Plus police transfers are government prerogative as per SIT report. Can’t infer Modi was the culprit based on that. No solid evidence to nail Modi.

My Comments: Yes, I agree there have been claims of dodgy issues with some police officers’ word (like Sanjeev Bhatt). Deeper analysis will reveal what’s what. But on comprehensive look at every single aspect in this rebelling police officers saga (and cross checking it) its very clear what happened.

Main Red Flag 5 – Atal Bihari’s Vajpayee’s disdain towards Modi

Narendra_Modi_360_Atal_Bihari_Vajpayee_360.jpg


We would be hard pressed to find an Indian Prime Minister more respected than Atal Bihari Vajpayee. Vajpayee was the serving PM during Godhra and made his displeasure towards Modi known in no uncertain terms. He wrote Modi an official letter that has been made available through RTI. In it, he asks Modi to “adhere to Raj dharma and not discriminate on the basis of caste, creed or religion.” Why would the leader of the BJP need to do that if Modi was indeed the impartial CM striving to control the situation? In the aftermath of the lok sabha rout of 2004, Vajpayee said “We lost because of Gujarat.I should have removed Modi”. Certainly Vajpayee would have known a thing or two that you and I don’t about the truth in Gujarat. It is uncommon for a PM to chastise a CM from his own party, and add a dent to the party’s image. Even so,one of the most respected PMs of all time did exactly that. What does that tell us?

Human Logic: Yup, its just a coincidence that Atal Behari Vajpayee used the Raj Dharma and non discrimination word instead of blaming him for poor maintainence of law and order situation. Guilty.

Court Conviction Logic: Vajpayee’s words can be taken as an indication can’t be used to automatically infer that Modi is guilty. No solid evidence to nail Modi.


Main Red flag 6 – Modi’s justification statement as recorded in SIT report

modi.JPG


SIT says:

“In spite of the fact that ghastly and violent attacks had taken place on Muslims at Gulberg Society and elsewhere, the reaction of the government was not the type that would have been expected by anyone. The chief minister had tried to water down the seriousness of the situation at Gulberg Society, Naroda Patiya and other places by saying that every action has an equal and opposite reaction However, this utterance by itself is not sufficient to make out a case against Mr. Modi."

http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-national/sit-stand-vindicated-raghavan/article5506527.ece

In the same article where Raghavan says SIT is vindicated, its mentioned: The SIT had maintained that it could not order prosecution of Mr. Modi and 61 others in the Gulberg Society case as there was no “prosecutable evidence” for filing a charge sheet.

That's the keyword. If that's not there, a person can't be judged guilty even though a lot of stuff looks dodgy.

Now why would Modi make that statement?

Sure you can say he said that to point out why Hindus reacted that way and that it was a harmless statement that was misinterpreted.

Then why are these specific words written that in the SIT report:

“. The chief minister had tried to water down the seriousness of the situation at Gulberg Society, Naroda Patiya and other places by”

Plus when you consider the context:

1. All the above red flags
2. Atalji’s statement about Raj Dharma
3. The fact that Modi traveled 300 km to visit Godhra (27th Feb – the same day) but not to LOCAL riot affected parts in Ahmedabad city (which he only did on 5th March). Guj riots started from 28th Feb following the train burning and major violence happened for 3 days.

On page 67 of the SIT report Malhotra notes, “Narendra Modi, chief minister, has admitted to visiting Godhra on 27 February 2002. He has further admitted to visiting Gulberg Society, Naroda Patiya and other riot-affected parts of Ahmedabad city only on 5 March 2002 and 6 March 2002.” Malhotra further writes: “This possibly indicates his discriminatory attitude. He went to Godhra, travelling almost 300 km in a day, but failed to go to the local areas, where serious incidents of riots had taken place and a large number of Muslims were killed.”

http://archive.tehelka.com/story_main48.asp?filename=Ne120211coverstory.asp

Human Logic: I am bored now. Guilty

Court Conviction Logic: As recorded in SIT, its unfortunate and can be taken as an indication but due to lack of a solid prosecutable base proof, we can’t automatically infer that Modi is guilty. No solid evidence to nail Modi.

Main Red flag 7 – VHP/RSS appointed public prosecutors (SIT Report)

On page 157, the SIT report records that a pro-VHP advocate named Raghuvir Pandya was appointed as government pleader in the Vadodara District and Sessions Court in 2002. Pandya conducted the trial of the infamous Best Bakery case which resulted in the acquittal of all the accused. The SIT further writes that the “Supreme Court of India had passed serious strictures on the role played by Pandya in this trial which deserves to be brought to the notice of the Bar Association for suitable action as deemed fit.” SIT lists five more instances of VHP or RSS leaders being appointed as public prosecutors. The report mentions that ‘political consideration and affiliation of the advocates weighed heavily with the government’ in these appointments. Then it contradicts itself by saying that ‘no specific allegation of professional misconduct on the part of any of the public prosecutors has come to light.’

Saffron brigade members of were appointed public prosecutors in riot cases, but tough to pinpoint instances of misconduct, says SIT

http://archive.tehelka.com/story_main48.asp?filename=Ne120211coverstory.asp

Human Logic: Hey nothing dodgy. Just feel like saying guilty.

Court Conviction Logic: Can’t infer Modi was the culprit based on all this. Law doesn’t work that way. No solid evidence to nail Modi.

Lots of other red flags but I listed the most important ones with additional data and references. You can read the rest here - http://www.kractivist.org/modi-not-enough-evidence-to-convict-is-the-new-clean-chit-nomore/

The curious case of Nanavati Commission reg 2002 riots (still going on)

Constituted on March 6, 2002 to probe into the Godhra Train Carnage incident reported on February 27, 2002 and the subsequent communal riots in Gujarat, the Commission had sought 'some more time' to submit its report. This is the 21st extension the Commission has got from the state government to complete the probe and submit its report. Latest it has been granted extention till June 30, 2014. Isn’t it odd that a commission has taken freaking 12 years and still has NOT even submitted its report?

http://archive.indianexpress.com/ne...ension-till-june-30-to-submit-report/1213785/

Has Nanavati been bribed?

http://www.sabhlokcity.com/2014/04/...ission-for-years-he-wants-money-nothing-else/

Here’s what it says:

Someone pointed this out and I've confirmed that not only has Nanavati been bribed (as clearly reported on video in a sting operation – see below) but Modi appointed two of Nanavati's sons as Gujarat government lawyers, and pays them HEFTY amounts of money. Why would Nanavati POSSIBLY give an adverse report against Modi?
This is open bribery – but how many care?

As a result of the MASSIVE bribery of the Nanavati family, Nanavati has NOT finished his report despite endless number of extensions. And whatever he has written is seriously flawed and full of obvious loopholes.

After receiving more than 20 extensions of its term, it (Nanavati commission) has yet to submit its final report, as of March 2014. And Modi's favourite Judge who was supposed to "investigate" Mansi Soni snooping has not bothered to report anything by 26 February.
And so many other cases of bribery, including of court officials, police and witnesses. And threatening and killing of witnesses.

You can read about it here:

http://www.sabhlokcity.com/2014/04/...ission-for-years-he-wants-money-nothing-else/

Anyways before someone says I am not into conspiracy theories, let me assure you I am not. There have been many allegations of Chief Justices, normal lawyers taking bribes, etc.

This sting could be true or it could be false.

But when I see that a commission has taken freaking 12 years and still has NOT even submitted its report, I start doubting.

So is Modi guilty or not?

Legally he is NOT (as of now).

Morally, well....you take a call.
 
Just a quick info:

In case if you thought I just copy pasted stuff from Google mindlessly, I didn’t. Everything mentioned above has a reference and I actually left out quite a bit of stuff.

To be honest, I don’t need any of above stuff to form my views.

My stand has been clear from day 1.

I respect Indian judiciary but in certain cases (where there is overwhelming evidence pointing to a certain thing), I don’t consider their verdict as the ultimate truth. Evidence to find out the truth is different from evidence in courts where laws are designed in a way that prosecutable proof is 100% solid to make sure non guilty don’t punished.

For eg, take the following

1. Shakaracharya Murder Case – Court declared him not guilty. Out of 183 witness, 80 turned hostile. Approver turned hostile. I don’t know whether Shankaracharya was guilty or not but it looks dodgy.

2. Manu Sharma Jessica lal – Whole world knew he was guilty when he was acquitted first (and then convicted the second time by a higher court). Why? Cos there were 80 odd people in that room when he shot Jessica Lal. 80 guests. 1 guy shoots a female. She dies. Would you take the final court verdict as the truth?

3. Talwar Murder case – Yes, they were declared guilty but half of the people whom I know are not sure whether they truly were guilty or not. Tampered evidences, shoddy investigation process, the very fact that Talwars have said to have wanted the proceedings to go on to find out the truth, etc. I have NO VIEW in this. There are many articles that discuss this aspect in detail and I have no interest.

Court needs prosecutable evidence. Without it, nothing can be done.

Yes, sometimes people are wrongly implicated and things reveal itself in court. I admit that. But when you have evidence from a diverse set of audience, then yes in those cases I don’t look at court for the absolute truth.

Would Congress have played a role in tarnishing Modi? Sure, they would have. But question is can you say every single one of the stuff I wrote above is because to Congress involvement?

Moving on, I will leave you with one snippet from this article – http://www.kractivist.org/modi-not-enough-evidence-to-convict-is-the-new-clean-chit-nomore/

I’ve heard people try and explain away one or two of these flags (relating to 2002 riots), and that’s reasonable. Can you really explain away all of them? Can you really look at all this evidence, and turn the other way finding solace in the“not enough evidence to prosecute” position the SIT has taken?

Can you truly explain away everything from a MORAL standpoint (legal standpoint – you can like I did in my main post).

You take a call.
 
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Modi is guilty or not what about all those hinduvta terrorist who actuly commited crime where are they.
 
Escaped just like those Muslim barbarians who escaped after burning down 60 innocent Hindus in Godhra.

So you are justifying those hinduvta terrorist act with those muslims
Even though both are wrong.
I asked a question did anything happened to those hinduvta terrorist and instead of answering you started comparing the 2.
They put everything on modi to let free those hinduvta terrorist because they knew nothing will happen to modi
 
What an effort to create such a post - well done.

Personally I think he's legally innocent however as head of the government/captain of the ship etc he should have resigned back then as he was morally responsible to protect his people.

However what I don't understand about the Gujarat riots is that no one talks about the non Muslim dead. The official (backed by the Congress government) report states that 790 Muslims and 254 Hindus were killed. And many thousands from all communities displaced.

There was a failure to protect all citizens. That is where the government failed.

That said, if you compare the riots under Modi to others in India, at least the army was called in within a matter of hours. In 1984 for example, they were deliberately kept away for days. Even recently, look what the Yadav government in UP did with the Jatt-Muslim riots. Yet apparently they are the good guys because they are secular etc etc.


As for the 2014 Modi, I want him to be PM because of his economic and business policies and nothing else. I hope he keeps his wacky RSS mates at an arms length. Vajpayee managed to do this so I don't see why Modi shouldn't be able to do the same. I hope Modi will help to provide economic growth and lots of jobs and leave the religious stuff behind.
 
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So you are justifying those hinduvta terrorist act with those muslims
Even though both are wrong.
I asked a question did anything happened to those hinduvta terrorist and instead of answering you started comparing the 2.
They put everything on modi to let free those hinduvta terrorist because they knew nothing will happen to modi

Don't you get it?

In a riot anyone can kill, rape and escape and its tough to prosecute.

Don't jump to conclusions man.

I thought you got that.

I don't know how many people (normal civilians, Bajrang Dal, VHP barbarians, etc) got convicted. Maybe someone else can answer that.
 
There you have it. The fact that Modi was not implicated legally has no meaning , the man is guilty in the moral sense of the word.We all know how easy it is in India to make court cases go away- bribery or intimidation work wonders.

Modi remains in my eyes a bigot fascist RSS man who has and will try again to suppress muslims in india. For him and his ilk, muslims should be second class citizens, cowering under hindutva forces.

Regarding his economic policies, he has done nothing special and taken credit for a lot.
His so called development policies do nothing to take away from his massive character flaws. Too bad India is faced with a choice of this man or Rahul Gandhi.
 
POTW.

It's all circumstantial evidence but without a shadow of a doubt not only did he do nothing to stop the slaughter but also gave the go ahead to these religious barbarians to kill and burn.
 
What an effort to create such a post - well done.

Personally I think he's legally innocent however as head of the government/captain of the ship etc he should have resigned back then as he was morally responsible to protect his people.

However what I don't understand about the Gujarat riots is that no one talks about the non Muslim dead. The official (backed by the Congress government) report states that 790 Muslims and 254 Hindus were killed. And many thousands from all communities displaced.

There was a failure to protect all citizens. That is where the government failed.

That said, if you compare the riots under Modi to others in India, at least the army was called in within a matter of hours. In 1984 for example, they were deliberately kept away for days. Even recently, look what the Yadav government in UP did with the Jatt-Muslim riots. Yet apparently they are the good guys because they are secular etc etc.

As for the 2014 Modi, I want him to be PM because of his economic and business policies and nothing else. I hope he keeps his wacky RSS mates at an arms length. Vajpayee managed to do this so I don't see why Modi shouldn't be able to do the same. I hope Modi will help to provide economic growth and lots of jobs and leave the religious stuff behind.

If someone wants Modi to be PM for development issues, then fine. Personally I am on the fence - I don't know.

Yes Congress has been playing this Muslim votebank game for far too long. But BJP's stupid ideology helps Congress win with that strategy and as long as it works, they will keep doing it.

Yes, Hindus also got killed. I think Modi's role over shadowed everything. If it was a common riot with Hindus attacking Muslims and Muslims retaliating - the whole coverage would have been different.

Yes, I too feel Modi will keep the RSS guys at bay (most likely - can't guarantee). Cos he has a lot at stake and his personal ambition to become great will not make him do petty stuff.
 
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There you have it. The fact that Modi was not implicated legally has no meaning , the man is guilty in the moral sense of the word.We all know how easy it is in India to make court cases go away- bribery or intimidation work wonders.

Modi remains in my eyes a bigot fascist RSS man who has and will try again to suppress muslims in india. For him and his ilk, muslims should be second class citizens, cowering under hindutva forces.

Regarding his economic policies, he has done nothing special and taken credit for a lot.
His so called development policies do nothing to take away from his massive character flaws. Too bad India is faced with a choice of this man or Rahul Gandhi.

He was morally guilty. No question about it.

As for economic policies, I don't have much of an opinion. Some swear by it. Some say its fake.

But leaving aside his past, he does look like the best bet for India in terms of leadership and governance. Ideally I would want Kejriwal but that guy has a bunch of fools surrounding him and his party is never going to get majority on its own.

India needs a strong government or else we are going to pay the price.

So its a complicated issue for us this election.
 
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Great post.

If someone wants Modi to be PM for development issues, then fine. Personally I am on the fence - I don't know.

Yes Congress has been playing this Muslim votebank game for far too long. But BJP's stupid ideology helps Congress win with that strategy and as long as it works, they will keep doing it.

Yes, Hindus also got killed. I think Modi's role over shadowed everything. If it was a common riot with Hindus attacking Muslims and Muslims retaliating - the whole coverage would have been different.

Yes, I too feel Modi will keep the RSS guys at bay (most likely - can't guarantee). Cos he has a lot at stake and his personal ambition to become great will not make him do petty stuff.

I wrote this in the other thread too but will repeat it here. Modi will definitely tone down the RSS rhetoric once he's in power, Pakistani statesmen already recognise this which is why there has been a fairly measured response so far from across the border.

The bigger issue is for India itself. What message does it send to the Muslims of your country that Modi and his acolytes are still making veiled threats against them to toe the line or hear the threat "Pakistan ya Kabiristan"? If his economic revival of Guarat is such a miracle why the need to pander to the Hindu masses with a message of communal hatred?
 
I wrote this in the other thread too but will repeat it here. Modi will definitely tone down the RSS rhetoric once he's in power, Pakistani statesmen already recognise this which is why there has been a fairly measured response so far from across the border.

The bigger issue is for India itself. What message does it send to the Muslims of your country that Modi and his acolytes are still making veiled threats against them to toe the line or hear the threat "Pakistan ya Kabiristan"? If his economic revival of Guarat is such a miracle why the need to pander to the Hindu masses with a message of communal hatred?

Don't think Modi made these statements, some of the RSS and Vhp guys did. In fact Modi did issue a statement that he does not support those views.
In fact the person who made the comment that 'people who don't support modi should go to pakistan' has actually fled from his residence and multiple FIR's have been filed against him, the police is on the lookout.
 
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I wrote this in the other thread too but will repeat it here. Modi will definitely tone down the RSS rhetoric once he's in power, Pakistani statesmen already recognise this which is why there has been a fairly measured response so far from across the border.

The bigger issue is for India itself. What message does it send to the Muslims of your country that Modi and his acolytes are still making veiled threats against them to toe the line or hear the threat "Pakistan ya Kabiristan"? If his economic revival of Guarat is such a miracle why the need to pander to the Hindu masses with a message of communal hatred?

Yes I remember your post. I was thinking about your post only when I wrote my reply.

And reg the message to the Muslims of my country, yes it doesn't send a good message. But I think if Modi keeps his RSS guys at bay and focuses on development, things can simmer down.

Right now, a lot of stuff is being said to score some brownie points among voters and get some cheap votes.

So let's see. I dunno.

Actually BJP doesn't pander to Hindus to get votes. Their Hindutva ideology is their basis (cos RSS controls it) and that ideology attracts certain set of Hindus (not everyone).

In fact, many don't subscribe to that view as evidenced by the voting pattern in the last few elections and the reason for voting Modi in this election (development).
 
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[Compiled Facts] Was Modi Guilty Or Not 2002 Gujarat Riots

Wow, wow, wow! What an amazingly informative post that was! I read it with keen interest some half an hour ago and each step and chapter made me feel as if I was watching some crime investigation film. Some mind-blowing discoveries in it for me personally, particularly the ones about Atal Bihari Vajpayee´s reaction to the whole case.

The court is not to be blamed, but things aren´t as clear and rosy as some supporters and defenders of Narendra Modi and the BJP (Bharatiya Janata Party) do. Their continuous denial hasn´t impressed me one bit, and that´s just my personal observation of the debates conducted on our forum at least, which include Indians on both sides of the discussion.
 
Can the OP please represent me in court if I ever get into any legal issues ? Very good compilation of the facts there.

Looking at one specific example - the Gulbarg Society case. The SIT held that Modi essentially did not ask the police to deliberately stand down when a mob had collected at the Gulbarg Housing Society community, and the residents there asked the CM's office for help. The SIT basically asked Modi if he received any calls from Gulbarg residents, to which he said no. That was the essential extent of the questioning.

For that to be true, Modi, in his capacity as the leader of the executive in Gujarat, would have had to be ignorant of what was happening 3km away from where he was in the middle of Ahmedabad.

So there you have it, either Modi knew what was happening in Gulbarg Society and did not send any police reinforcements, or Mr Able Administrator himself wasn't able to control law and order in a central part of the largest town in Gujarat when he was a mere 3km away. Neither outcome looks good for Modi fans.

As for the 2014 Modi, I want him to be PM because of his economic and business policies and nothing else. I hope Modi will help to provide economic growth and lots of jobs and leave the religious stuff behind.

But GS, this idea that Modi's Gujarat was some haven for development is somewhat overstated. Modi's 'economic reforms' are essentially straight from the neo-liberal textbook. Gujarat has a relatively poor record when it comes to human development, poverty alleviation, nutrition, and education. The state is 13th in India for poverty, 21st for education and 44.7% percent of children under five are underweight and 23% are undernourished putting the state in the "alarming" category on the Hunger Index.

Unfortunately many have resorted to Modi due to the perception of him being the lesser of two evils.
 
Good work SIF. But, can you post some reliable links instead of sablichity, tehelka, firstpost, kractivist etc? Never heard of few websites you mentioned, and links like tehelka and first post having dubious records. Few other links like Hindu,times of India are really good.
 
Nice post SIF.

But at the outset i must ask you that your source

www.kractivism.com how reputable is that?

Secondly yes Modi was morally responsible.But so were each CM when riots broke out in their states,did they resign?Have Akhilesh Yadav resigned?NO.

Why one rule for Modi and other for the rest of the political leaders?

So why should Modi go?Because he is not from "Secular" party?

Lets be honest here,if he wasnt from BJP no one would be baying for his blood.BJP is a party that can upset the apple cart of congress and co. so demonise BJP and their leaders thats it.
 
Modi like many others is not a black and white character. He has many shades to him.
All the people of India can only hope that he shelves his 'dark' shades and serves the country with dedication and tries to harmonise and uplift 'all' the communities of this country.
That will be a partial atonement of his sins.
 
Nice post SIF.

But at the outset i must ask you that your source

www.kractivism.com how reputable is that?

Secondly yes Modi was morally responsible.But so were each CM when riots broke out in their states,did they resign?Have Akhilesh Yadav resigned?NO.

Why one rule for Modi and other for the rest of the political leaders?

So why should Modi go?Because he is not from "Secular" party?

Lets be honest here,if he wasnt from BJP no one would be baying for his blood.BJP is a party that can upset the apple cart of congress and co. so demonise BJP and their leaders thats it.

There is difference between inability to stop a riot, and allowing a riot to go on. Modi is the second case.

Let's be honest. You know Modi is a sob, but "our" sob (as one US politician famously said about Saddam). That is why he must be supported.
 
Some criticism on Modi regarding his economic achievements can be read from this article.


India’s Modi looks back, Indonesia’s Jokowi ahead

INDIA and Indonesia, relegated to the ranks of the “fragile five” economies, have witnessed a sudden uptick in foreign investment as they go to the polls. Financial markets have responded exuberantly to the prospect of Narendra Modi and Joko “Jokowi” Widodo assuming power in New Delhi and Jakarta, respectively, where they are expected to initiate more “reforms” — a much-bandied-about word that in this context means enhanced opportunities for quick profit-making. Contrary to what punters seem to think, Modi and Jokowi do not share much, let alone an economic vision.

Modi, Gujarat’s chief minister, is a veteran manipulator of party machineries for the sake of personal power. Much of his public-relations-burnished appeal is insidiously sectarian, predicated upon aggressive indifference, if not malign brutality, to minorities. Jokowi’s charisma derives from his genuine outsider status in Indonesia’s nepotistic political system; the Jakarta governor has deliberately chosen candidates from ethnic and religious minorities as his running mates in past elections.

Modi is unabashedly the choice of India’s biggest corporate houses, which have used their ownership of the media to sell him as a saviour to the Indian masses. He is also supported by such influential non-resident Indians as the Columbia University economists Jagdish Bhagwati and Arvind Panagariya. Jokowi, on the other hand, owes his rise to the Indonesian masses, who are fed up with inequality and corruption.

Modi’s record of “development” in the state of Gujarat seems to amount to showering gifts — land, tax concessions and other subsidies — on a handful of big businessmen. Jokowi’s resume suggests a greater sympathy for small and medium-sized enterprises, the real backbone of Indonesia’s, as well as India’s, economy; he has also raised wages for labourers. His free health-care plan for low-income people in Jakarta immediately distinguishes him from Modi, whose administration has produced one of the weaker records of human development in India.

This divergence of outlooks and priorities tracks the two competing narratives of development playing out across the world. Most countries in Latin America, for instance, have experimented with a neo-liberal regime of financial liberalisation and privatisation led by strongmen and Ivy League-educated economists. The results were disastrous.

In the last decade, many Latin American governments have moved to embrace an alternative development strategy, one that cannot easily be pigeonholed as “left” or “right.” Brazil, for instance, has tried to combine open markets with social democratic policies; it has mixed fiscal discipline and foreign investment with interventionist policies, including price control and taxation, to help build a social welfare system for the poor.

In Indonesia, the fetish of liberalisation has been replaced by a similar pragmatism. The country already had its own Modi: former dictator Suharto, who built up, with foreign assistance, a domestic industrial class and acquired some fervent supporters among the middle class with his promises of stability and prosperity.

A nexus of bureaucrats, who were in charge of rent allocation, and big-business conglomerates used Suharto’s economic reforms of the 1980s to create a new Latin American-style oligarchy. Spiralling inequality, corruption, incompetence and the Asian financial crisis eventually brought down Suharto’s regime in 1998, but the oligarchs reinvented themselves for a democratic age by allying themselves with Indonesia’s politicians.

Jokowi’s popularity reflects a revolt against this ancient regime, which cemented its hold on power through democratic politics. No wonder he has been largely ambiguous about what economic policies he will adopt as president. Certainly, his actions — banning foreign investment in a tourism project off Jakarta’s northern coast, for example — are not in perfect accord with his frequent rhetoric about open markets.

More broadly, economic nationalism has been on the rise in Indonesia, reflected in the government’s decision to ban mineral exports and force miners to build smelters locally. Even Jokowi’s fiercest political opponent, Prabowo Subianto, a holdover from the Suharto era, promises to build a “people economy” and to increase investment 10-fold in agriculture, which 70 per cent of Indonesians still depend on for a living.

This populism may seem repellent to ratings agencies and their camp followers. But the forms of capitalism that privilege private wealth creation and shareholder value above all are ultimately incompatible with democratic politics, especially in large and poor countries.

Jokowi’s studied ambiguity reflects that awareness; he knows that as Indonesia’s president, he will have to think about development in social and national terms rather than purely economic ones. Modi and his fans, on the other hand, represent not so much India’s future as the widely discredited and despised past of several countries: one in which politicians struck deals with big business and foreign investors while their loud cheerleaders drowned out all alternative discourse with the repetitive mantra of “reforms”.

This is why Indonesia may gain in the next few weeks what India may not until the next general election: a leadership compelled by disgruntled masses to focus on growth as a means of creating jobs, not just as a playground for plutocrats.

http://www.dawn.com/news/1102150/indias-modi-looks-back-indonesias-jokowi-ahead
 
Another opinion from an Indian !

RSS, BJP & Modi

NARENDRA Modi’s anointment as Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) prime ministerial candidate shows that while the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) has tightened its grip over its political front (the BJP) Modi has broken all limits in self-assertion which no BJP leader has ever dared. India’s polity will be affected by this tussle.

Modi has shown every senior leader his place by assigning to him the constituency of Modi’s choice.

He sent his own handpicked men to perform tasks he assigned during the elections. The party machine counted for little. His intimate aide Amit Shah was handpicked to go to UP. Soon enough he asked the Hindu voter to exact his “revenge” for the Muzaffarnagar riots, by voting for the BJP.

Two other acolytes picked up the refrain on the same day, April 19. In Gujarat Pravin Togadia, the president of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad, targeted Muslims who bought properties in Hindu areas. If the Muslim occupant does not vacate within 48 hours “go with stones, tyres and tomatoes to his office. There is nothing wrong in it”.

On the same day, Bihar BJP leader Giriraj Singh said that “those who want to stop” Modi will soon have “no place in India … because their place will be in Pakistan”.

This was no coincidence. Uttar Pradesh and Bihar will make or mar Modi’s success. Modi is out to consolidate Hindu votes there.

If he wins, what kind of a prime minister will he emerge? In Gujarat he ended the cabinet government. Opponents within the state BJP were consigned to oblivion. Can he do the same to the BJP headquarters in New Delhi? The crucial question is whether the RSS will acquiesce in his plans. In 1998, it successfully foiled A.B. Vajpayee’s proposal to make Jaswant Singh finance minister. Precisely what will be the basic equation between Modi and the RSS?

The RSS was founded in 1925. The Jan Sangh was set up on Oct 21, 1951 under a Faustian pact between the RSS and former chief of the Hindu Mahasabha, Syama Prasad Mookerjee. He was privy to the constituent resolution of April 3, 1948 urging a ban on ‘communal’ organisations. Since the Mahasabha refused to end its exclusion of non-Hindus, he did a deal with the RSS — he would set up a nominally non-denominational party; the RSS will provide the cadres, the muscle. Before long, the RSS began to dictate terms.

The Jan Sangh dissolved in 1977 to merge with the Janata Party, along with other parties who had defeated Indira Gandhi in the elections. It did not last. The Jan Sangh faction left the Janata Party to sail under false colours — the Bharatiya Janata Party.

The reason for the break was its allies’ demand, in effect, that it shed its allegiance to the RSS. The BJP was founded on April 5, 1980. L.K. Advani has never hesitated to claim that it is “a Hindu party”.

The RSS had three presidents of the BJP removed from their posts — Mauli Chandra Sharma in 1954, Balraj Madhok in 1973 and Advani in 2005.

Time has proved the correctness of what Walter Andersen & Shridhar Damle wrote 30 years ago in The Brotherhood in Saffron: “The BJP for its part will try to develop into a national political force, but it is questionable whether it can do so with a cadre drawn largely from the RSS. Within the party’s organisational structure, the cadre has been reluctant to share power with politically prominent figures from non-RSS backgrounds who could mobilise mass support.... The RSS training, emphasising the sacrifice of self for the larger good, and apolitical orientation of the RSS ideology, make it unlikely that politically charismatic figures will emerge from within its own ranks. On the other hand, it is questionable if the BJP could survive politically without the RSS cadre, and the cadre will not stay unless the leadership of the party stays firmly in the hands of the ‘brotherhood’.”

Both trends were in evidence. Some, like Vajpayee, tried to give the BJP a ‘humane’ face with a view to its emergence as a secular right-wing party. They failed because the RSS would have none of it. But nor can the BJP survive without the cadres seconded by the RSS.

During the elections, particularly, those cadres’ and the RSS’ resources become indispensable. For four good reasons Modi will be compelled to accept some limits — the faction in the BJP which he has slighted will assert itself; he is no Indira Gandhi to be able to decimate the party; public opinion in every democracy curbs excesses by the man in power; and lastly Modi’s own divisive personality.

http://www.dawn.com/news/1102326/rss-bjp-modi
 
I fail to understand how Modi allow the riots to go on..!! Godhra train burning incident happened on February 28th and the army was deployed on 1st of March. Where is the delay in action? Few idiots in India said modi took 3 days to deploy the army(, 29th , 30, 31st). Lol, they forgot February has only 28 days not 31 days. Lol
 
Good work SIF. But, can you post some reliable links instead of sablichity, tehelka, firstpost, kractivist etc? Never heard of few websites you mentioned, and links like tehelka and first post having dubious records. Few other links like Hindu,times of India are really good.

Because those were the few websites that dug in deep to analyze this stuff.

Atleast that's what I found.

If you want, you can discard these links and just see the SIT report wordings (many of which is mentioned in these sites).

You can trust the fact that these sites would not wrongly represent the wordings of SIT report especially when they mention it along with page numbers (their analysis could be a bit biased but doubt they can change the wordings of SIT report itself).

You can cross check everything by searching for some of the phrase terms of a particular snippet of SIT report.

Here's something more (this guy has read the SIT report and done some huge analysis):

http://shantihp.blogspot.in/2012/06/sit-report-on-gujarat-riots-analysis.html

Hindu articles in 2002

http://www.hindu.com/2002/03/07/stories/2002030700071000.htm

http://hindu.com/2002/04/02/stories/2002040200581000.htm

NY Times

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/27/world/asia/27iht-letter27.html?_r=0

Other stuff I will add in the future posts (after I do my basic level cross checking).
 
Nice post SIF.

But at the outset i must ask you that your source

www.kractivism.com how reputable is that?

Secondly yes Modi was morally responsible.But so were each CM when riots broke out in their states,did they resign?Have Akhilesh Yadav resigned?NO.

Why one rule for Modi and other for the rest of the political leaders?

So why should Modi go?Because he is not from "Secular" party?

Lets be honest here,if he wasnt from BJP no one would be baying for his blood.BJP is a party that can upset the apple cart of congress and co. so demonise BJP and their leaders thats it.

Thanks.

A few points:

1. Kractivist formed the base but whatever info I expanded from it, I have provided links. That's why there are so many reference links in the post. Even kractivist took all is info from the same links but it didn't mention the sources.

Kractivist is just a compilation. Not an actual report like Tehelka.

2. If you want, you can leave the links and see the SIT wordings. The only thing they don't have is prosecutable evidence for Modi.

3. Modi is not accused of negligence. That's the thing. He is accused of indirectly letting a community massacre another.

How many Muzzafarnagar riot victims accuse Akhilesh and co of that?

They just accuse them of poor governance, callous attitude, etc. Not the stuff Modi and co are accused of - that is an indirect hand in a massacre.
 
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Because those were the few websites that dug in deep to analyze this stuff.

Atleast that's what I found.

If you want, you can discard these links and just see the SIT report wordings (many of which is mentioned in these sites).

You can trust the fact that these sites would not wrongly represent the wordings of SIT report especially when they mention it along with page numbers (their analysis could be a bit biased but doubt they can change the wordings of SIT report itself).

You can cross check everything by searching for some of the phrase terms of a particular snippet of SIT report.

Here's something more (this guy has read the SIT report and done some huge analysis):

http://shantihp.blogspot.in/2012/06/sit-report-on-gujarat-riots-analysis.html

Hindu articles in 2002

http://www.hindu.com/2002/03/07/stories/2002030700071000.htm

http://hindu.com/2002/04/02/stories/2002040200581000.htm

NY Times

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/27/world/asia/27iht-letter27.html?_r=0

Other stuff I will add in the future posts (after I do my basic level cross checking).

If those were SIT reports, our media would pounced on modi and put him down so badly. But the links you posted on your first post was just unreliable. I can open a website and claim I have seen the SIT reports. Unless we get it from a reliable source, its hard to believe it. You will find admirers in pp because any website which says Modi is guilty is good enough for them.
 
If those were SIT reports, our media would pounced on modi and put him down so badly. But the links you posted on your first post was just unreliable. I can open a website and claim I have seen the SIT reports. Unless we get it from a reliable source, its hard to believe it. You will find admirers in pp because any website which says Modi is guilty is good enough for them.

You can't really lay this one on PP readers bias, Modi's part in the riots has been well documented in international media. Was it PP that put a ban on Modi entering the US or UK following the events of 2002?

Even the news I've posted has been from either Indian news sites or respected English broadsheets where eye witness accounts corroborate the stories.
 
If those were SIT reports, our media would pounced on modi and put him down so badly. But the links you posted on your first post was just unreliable. I can open a website and claim I have seen the SIT reports. Unless we get it from a reliable source, its hard to believe it. You will find admirers in pp because any website which says Modi is guilty is good enough for them.

Clearly you didn't read my post and follow what I asked you to do.

Ok so when I search for a term like this (a phrase that comes in SIT report)

""In spite of the fact that ghastly and violent attacks had taken place on Muslims at Gulberg"

This pops up:

https://www.google.com/#q="In+spite...tacks+had+taken+place+on+Muslims+at+Gulberg+"

See the sites that pop up.

So every news site (like Hindu, Times of India) in its desire to nail Modi will use wrong information of a real SIT report?

Are you FREAKING kidding me?

1. Prove Modi is morally not guilty. Not legally. Cos phone evidences, Haren Pandya, etc are not available for checking. Legally Modi is fine. Atleast as of now.

2. Did you even read the links of Hindu and NY Times I gave you?

Here's the SIT report that every one of these sites is talking about:

http://www.cjponline.org/zakia/SIT Enquiry_Report_In ZAKIA CASE.pdf

In most cases the wordings are exact.

In some cases you have to read the passage as many news articles mention the gist along with the page number. In some case they mention the point as in Chairman's comments. Its all there but its a mess.

You can't search using Ctrl + F. Tried it. Doesn't work. You have manually go through it.
 
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[Compiled Facts] Was Modi Guilty Or Not 2002 Gujarat Riots

So why should Modi go?Because he is not from "Secular" party?

Sorry for derailing things a bit, but what then is the BJP based upon if not secularism? I mean, what is their ideology?

lWas it PP that put a ban on Modi entering the US or UK following the events of 2002?

Just for the sake of the data added to this thread, I was going to add the same, that is, that Narendra Modi was denied a visa of the USA and the UK.
 
My take on BJP -

BJP without Hindutva would have owned by Congress by now.

But the question is - Would BJP have rose to national prominence if not for its Hindutva?
 
Wow, wow, wow! What an amazingly informative post that was! I read it with keen interest some half an hour ago and each step and chapter made me feel as if I was watching some crime investigation film. Some mind-blowing discoveries in it for me personally, particularly the ones about Atal Bihari Vajpayee´s reaction to the whole case.

Thanks for your kind words.

To be honest, after I read your comment, I skimmed through my post and I didn't find it entertaining (not a humble brag). It was okayish.
 
There is difference between inability to stop a riot, and allowing a riot to go on. Modi is the second case.

Let's be honest. You know Modi is a sob, but "our" sob (as one US politician famously said about Saddam). That is why he must be supported.

I believe that he was a novice CM then and hence his inability to rein in the riots.I also believe that certain ministers of his were involved in inciting the riots.
 
I fail to understand how Modi allow the riots to go on..!! Godhra train burning incident happened on February 28th and the army was deployed on 1st of March. Where is the delay in action? Few idiots in India said modi took 3 days to deploy the army(, 29th , 30, 31st). Lol, they forgot February has only 28 days not 31 days. Lol

The curse of half truths that sound very compelling.

--

In a positive note, given the inflamed situation in the state, SIT Chairman Raghavan records that the state government had alerted army authorities on a possible need for their assistance on 27 February itself. Modi had also called Union Home Minister LK Advani about the deteriorating law and order situation. This was followed by a fax message on 28 February 2002 to the Centre. Army columns started arriving in Ahmedabad during the intervening night of 28 February-1 March. Raghavan concludes that “it is clearly established that there was no slackness on the part of the state government in summoning the army.”

However, once the army had arrived, it needed logistic support. The Modi administration could arrange all of this only by 2.30 pm on the afternoon of 1 March. At Godhra, this took up to the afternoon of 2 March. By then, a lot of the horror had already struck. The SIT report records this slackness in deploying the army, but has chosen not to comment on it.

--

http://archive.tehelka.com/story_main48.asp?filename=Ne120211coverstory.asp

Even if you reject this stand by Tehelka which it took after reading the full big 600 page SIT report (there are stuff other than the one I gave you too), can you reject the fact that many Muslims and Hindus died in those 3 days? Did a ghost come and kill them?

Anything can be proven or disproven legally depending upon availability (or non availability) of relevant facts. Doesn't make the truth any lesser. Sad that we have to argue with facts about something (like riot for 3 days) that everyone and their mom knows about.

Anyways I am not going to go into a legal argument here. The entire premise of my main post was the moral argument.
 
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Wow .. This should have taken more patience than Misbah's tuk tuk. :14: Very interesting compilation and presentation of facts.
 
I believe that he was a novice CM then and hence his inability to rein in the riots.I also believe that certain ministers of his were involved in inciting the riots.

Yeap Modi was a rookie, apparently only been in the office for 2 months when the riots occurred I believe ?
 
Also another point to note, read this while browsing google on Gujarat riots;

The Indian army was alerted on February 27 itself but could not be made available due to Operation Parakram in the wake of the Parliament attack..
 
Thanks for your kind words.

To be honest, after I read your comment, I skimmed through my post and I didn't find it entertaining (not a humble brag). It was okayish.

The only evidence that can pin down any politician would be all the memos or minutes of his meeting with the civil servant.Isn't destroying this official record a criminal offence , why haven't the IPS officers been prosecuted for it?
 
[Compiled Facts] Was Modi Guilty Or Not 2002 Gujarat Riots

Thanks for your kind words.

To be honest, after I read your comment, I skimmed through my post and I didn't find it entertaining (not a humble brag). It was okayish.

A question, did you yourself write that "Human logic" and "Court logic" thing?
 
My take on BJP -

BJP without Hindutva would have owned by Congress by now.

But the question is - Would BJP have rose to national prominence if not for its Hindutva?

There won't be any difference between BJP and Congress but for Hindutva.
 

Dude no need to get worked up.

I didn't read any report of that so I said.

I stand corrected. Thanks for the info.

Just now I searched for 2002 riots conviction and here's what I found: 32 convicted

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/30/w...onvicted-for-roles-in-gujarat-riots.html?_r=0

Good all these animals deserve what they got.
 
Dude no need to get worked up.

I didn't read any report of that so I said.

I stand corrected. Thanks for the info.

Just now I searched for 2002 riots conviction and here's what I found: 32 convicted

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/30/w...onvicted-for-roles-in-gujarat-riots.html?_r=0

Good all these animals deserve what they got.

There was an article by Arundhati Roy about the Godhra train burning case in Outlook few years back. I don't know if it is available online. If it is, you should have a look.
 
My take on BJP -

BJP without Hindutva would have owned by Congress by now.

But the question is - Would BJP have rose to national prominence if not for its Hindutva?

Not really
For your first point
BJP is not a national party. Yes it exists in major states but it has never been a force pan India. It has been called a national party but then so is BSP and CPIM.
It has to rely on coalitions to form a government.
Unlike congress where in almost all the states its either the ruling party or the opposition.
So even without hindutva it would still have to struggle really hard to own Congress.

Would BJP have rose to national prominence if not for its Hindutva?
Not a chance, It rose thanks to the Babri Masid demolition and the Congress ineptitude.

But even then it wasnt a major force.
That and of course Kargil, helped it become a major force in India.
 
What an excellent post and deserves some sort of PP accolade for research you carried out and the way you presented it.

Well done.
 
Clearly you didn't read my post and follow what I asked you to do.

Ok so when I search for a term like this (a phrase that comes in SIT report)

""In spite of the fact that ghastly and violent attacks had taken place on Muslims at Gulberg"

This pops up:

https://www.google.com/#q="In+spite...tacks+had+taken+place+on+Muslims+at+Gulberg+"

See the sites that pop up.

So every news site (like Hindu, Times of India) in its desire to nail Modi will use wrong information of a real SIT report?

Are you FREAKING kidding me?

1. Prove Modi is morally not guilty. Not legally. Cos phone evidences, Haren Pandya, etc are not available for checking. Legally Modi is fine. Atleast as of now.

2. Did you even read the links of Hindu and NY Times I gave you?

Here's the SIT report that every one of these sites is talking about:

http://www.cjponline.org/zakia/SIT Enquiry_Report_In ZAKIA CASE.pdf

In most cases the wordings are exact.

In some cases you have to read the passage as many news articles mention the gist along with the page number. In some case they mention the point as in Chairman's comments. Its all there but its a mess.

You can't search using Ctrl + F. Tried it. Doesn't work. You have manually go through it.

Dude, why don't you read my first post again? I said links like times of India and Hindu were good but some of the websites you have mentioned were just laughable. I don't have the patience to go through the complete SIT report. Why don't you provide just one link for SIT report and copy , paste from there instead of unreliable websites?!.. I appreciate your work to put together all these. I wouldn't vote for Modi if I doubt that he helped the rioters. But we need some solid proof instead of accusing him because he was a BJP chief minister.
 
It is just my opinion, he is of-course free to do what he does.
lol so know I can't even give a suggestion?

Not only you can give suggestion but also can vote Modi to help him bulid Ram temple on the sight of the destroyed Babri mosque.
 
Not only you can give suggestion but also can vote Modi to help him bulid Ram temple on the sight of the destroyed Babri mosque.

What an immature reply!
I'll vote for Modi not because of religious jingoism but because of his promise for development and economic growth, infact even most hindu's are also voting him due to his development of Gujrat and promise for further development for India, that's different that u may not want to believe this.
 
Dude, why don't you read my first post again? I said links like times of India and Hindu were good but some of the websites you have mentioned were just laughable. I don't have the patience to go through the complete SIT report. Why don't you provide just one link for SIT report and copy , paste from there instead of unreliable websites?!.. I appreciate your work to put together all these. I wouldn't vote for Modi if I doubt that he helped the rioters. But we need some solid proof instead of accusing him because he was a BJP chief minister.

:))

Dude seriously read your post again.

ANY SITE in this world can be referenced as long as it quotes the SIT report with exact wordings and page number.

Why cos you can always verify it everywhere (directly using the report or via Google).

I gave everything to you with references. Now you want me to spoon feed you more.

This is big issue that is why every issue is scattered. And it will BE that way.

I can quote links in Tehelka or whatever when they HAVE WORDING FROM SIT REPORT WITH PAGE NUMBERS which can be verified properly. They being laughable to you is irrelevant. Why? Cos their source of info can be verified and they too make it easy to find it.

Read that line again.

And again.

And again.

And again.

If you think that's laughable, then I find that laughable.

If you want to know the TRUTH, you also have to take the effort to CLICK links, read stuff and see what they are saying. I have added many sites not just Tehelka.

You say you won't vote for Modi if you doubt he had helped the rioters.

I have already presented you with the entire stuff with wordings from SIT report, references, etc (everything verifiable).

You say then anyone can use quote anything and say its from the SIT report and ask me for the source.

I have already showed you a verification method using Google and also give you the SIT report used by everyone.

Now you keep say some websites quoting SIT reports (with page number) are laughable EVEN though you have everything at your disposal to check it. And you keep harping on solid proof.

You want the truth but you are not willing to work even a bit to find it.

:facepalm:

Even this compilation took me a long time. That's why the post is written the way it is. I may compile all the SIT quotes in one place at a later time but hey the onus is not on me to give you all quotes in one place.

My post is a compilation, not a report on Modi.

If you want the truth, the onus is on you to you check out the super simple compilation I gave you.
 
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:))

Dude seriously read your post again.

ANY SITE in this world can be referenced as long as it quotes the SIT report with exact wordings and page number.

Why cos you can always verify it everywhere (directly using the report or via Google).

I gave everything to you with references. Now you want me to spoon feed you more.

This is big issue that is why every issue is scattered. And it will BE that way.

I can quote links in Tehelka or whatever when they HAVE WORDING FROM SIT REPORT WITH PAGE NUMBERS which can be verified properly. They being laughable to you is irrelevant. Why? Cos their source of info can be verified and they too make it easy to find it.

Read that line again.

And again.

And again.

And again.

If you think that's laughable, then I find that laughable.

If you want to know the TRUTH, you also have to take the effort to CLICK links, read stuff and see what they are saying. I have added many sites not just Tehelka.

You say you won't vote for Modi if you doubt he had helped the rioters.

I have already presented you with the entire stuff with wordings from SIT report, references, etc (everything verifiable).

You say then anyone can use quote anything and say its from the SIT report and ask me for the source.

I have already showed you a verification method using Google and also give you the SIT report used by everyone.

Now you keep say some websites quoting SIT reports (with page number) are laughable EVEN though you have everything at your disposal to check it. And you keep harping on solid proof.

You want the truth but you are not willing to work even a bit to find it.

:facepalm:

Even this compilation took me a long time. That's why the post is written the way it is. I may compile all the SIT quotes in one place at a later time but hey the onus is not on me to give you all quotes in one place.

My post is a compilation, not a report on Modi.

If you want the truth, the onus is on you to you check out the super simple compilation I gave you.

This post was even more laughable to be honest. I asked you to post from a single reliable website from you can also copy and paste from it. Instead you are asking people to surf through few unknown websites and asking us to cross check with the original SIT report.:wasim where everyone cross checks. What is the guarantee that these laughable website didn't change words to suit them? Ofcourse you gonna ask me to cross check, but come on, who is going to cross check these many pages? That's why I asked you to quote from some reliable websites so that we can believe they didn't change anything in this report. Do you get it now? If these joke website owners can find such big mistakes and loopholes in the report, do you think our media would have left it alone? Anyway, good luck. You will get potw award in Pakpassion. :D
 
^Zanjeer bro, why don't you make an effort to find the original SIT report from a 'reliable source' and cross check with the above ones? SIF has made enough effort to compile all this up. Now it's your turn to prove your allegations..:)
 
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This post was even more laughable to be honest. I asked you to post from a single reliable website from you can also copy and paste from it. Instead you are asking people to surf through few unknown websites and asking us to cross check with the original SIT report.:wasim where everyone cross checks. What is the guarantee that these laughable website didn't change words to suit them? Ofcourse you gonna ask me to cross check, but come on, who is going to cross check these many pages? That's why I asked you to quote from some reliable websites so that we can believe they didn't change anything in this report. Do you get it now? If these joke website owners can find such big mistakes and loopholes in the report, do you think our media would have left it alone? Anyway, good luck. You will get potw award in Pakpassion. :D

Shows you didn't even read my post properly.

Modi could not be nailed because of lack of prosecutable evidence even though there were many evidences (mentioned in SIT report in detail) that reveals his guilt.

It seems like you have no idea how courts work and what kind proof is needed to nail a person.

For example in the Nirbaya gangrape, even though everyone knew who did it, one had to prove it without a shadow of doubt. If not, the rapists would have got off.

The court didn't directly pass judgements. It examined everything:

This included DNA samples lifted from the crime scene, the iron rod used to attack the victims, clothes of the accused and victim and more. For perhaps the first time in a rape case, dental records were used to prove that bite marks on the victim's body were left by the accused.

http://www.firstpost.com/india/all-a...ce=ref_article

Lots go into PROVING something even as obvious as this. If there is a mess up in collection of data in any case, the accused WOULD NOT be proven guilty so which means he can be called not guilty. How's that?

I understand. When people have nothing to argue, they will use logic like this.

You think you are being smart here but know that I have owned you game set and match.

Now go home and believe that Modi is a saint.

:)))
 
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^Zanjeer bro, why don't you make an effort to find the original SIT report from a 'reliable source' and cross check with the above ones? SIF has made enough effort to compile all this up. Now it's your turn to prove your allegations..:)

That was one embarrassing argument from him.

:))
 
^Zanjeer bro, why don't you make an effort to find the original SIT report from a 'reliable source' and cross check with the above ones? SIF has made enough effort to compile all this up. Now it's your turn to prove your allegations..:)

Ha ha. Why should I make the effort? He is the one claiming that he got some" compiled facts " from some dubious websites. Its him who has to come up with some reliable sources if he has named this thread" compiled facts"
 
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Shows you didn't even read my post properly.

Modi could not be nailed because of lack of prosecutable evidence even though there were many evidences (mentioned in SIT report in detail) that reveals his guilt.

It seems like you have no idea how courts work and what kind proof is needed to nail a person.

For example in the Nirbaya gangrape, even though everyone knew who did it, one had to prove it without a shadow of doubt. If not, the rapists would have got off.



I understand. When people have nothing to argue, they will use logic like this.

You think you are being smart here but know that I have owned you game set and match.

Now go home and believe that Modi is a saint.

:)))

Ha ha ha. You make me laugh. I asked you to post some reliable source. Instead you are giving your judgment after reading from some dubious websites. Court judgment this, but he is morally corrupt because you see I have posted from some dubious websites and if you don't believe it you are an idiot. What sort of argument is this..!!!. Ha ha ha.. And what's up with the nirbaya case argument out of nowhere..??!!:akhtar:akhtar..relating with Modi when your basic authenticity of source is questionable.. Lol :akhtar
 
Ha ha ha. You make me laugh. I asked you to post some reliable source. Instead you are giving your judgment after reading from some dubious websites. Court judgment this, but he is morally corrupt because you see I have posted from some dubious websites and if you don't believe it you are an idiot. What sort of argument is this..!!!. Ha ha ha.. And what's up with the nirbaya case argument out of nowhere..??!!:akhtar:akhtar..relating with Modi when your basic authenticity of source is questionable.. Lol :akhtar

You have comprehension issues dude?

Seriously I am asking.
 
Its funny to note how some scream Modi was not guilty the moment SIT report came in.

They don't want to check anything or refer anything even though 1000's upon 1000's of people from all religions swear Modi's role in 2002.

But the moment someone shows that Modi is very much guilty but escaped due to lack of prosecutable evidence, they want get every little reference right.

Double standards, eh?

And here's what makes it even better:

And when given facts, they run away.

Yes, we all trust our judicial system so we don't question their reports but in rare cases like this - where was this curiosity to cross check when Modi was let off in the SIT report despite huge red flags around him?

This is the kind of audience I see commenting about Modi's innocence in ibnlive.com, timesofindia, etc.

Note: Not directed at the Indian posters here with whom I have a difference of opinion. Just people who take part in Zanjeer type arguments.
 
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You have comprehension issues dude?

Seriously I am asking.

Seriously, I'm telling you..

You were trying to deviate from reliable source argument and trying to change the topic. Lol. Read your previous post. Lol. I was asking about reliable source, but you were trying to change the topic. When I asked you to post from some reliable source, you were replying that Modi could not be nailed because lack of prosecutable evidence..lol. Arey bhaiya if you want me to believe he could not be prosecuted because of lack of evidence but he is morally wrong, then, post some reliable source which nails he is morally corrupt instead of giving dubious websites. I even appreciated you posting from sites like The Hindu, Times of India etc.
 
Its funny to note how some scream Modi was not guilty the moment SIT report came in.

They don't want to check anything or refer anything even though 1000's upon 1000's of people from all religions swear Modi's role in 2002.

But the moment someone shows that Modi is very much guilty but escaped due to lack of prosecutable evidence, they want get every little reference right.

Double standards, eh?

And here's what makes it even better:

And when given facts, they run away.

Yes, we all trust our judicial system so we don't question their reports but in rare cases like this - where was this curiosity to cross check when Modi was let off in the SIT report despite huge red flags around him?

This is the kind of audience I see commenting about Modi's innocence in ibnlive.com, timesofindia, etc.

Note: Not directed at the Indian posters here with whom I have a difference of opinion. Just people who take part in Zanjeer type arguments.

I'm replying you because you took my name.

I'm no modi supporter, but I don't hate him either just because he was a BJP chief minister during the riots unlike people like you read from some dubious, unreliable websites and think they know everything. Lol . People like you make me laugh. When I asked you to post from reliable sources, you get personal because you got nothing to offer. Lol. Anyway, I'm not bothered about people like you. Adios.
 
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I'm replying you because you took my name.

I'm no modi supporter, but I don't hate him either just because he was a BJP chief minister during the riots unlike people like you read from some dubious, unreliable websites and think they know everything. Lol . People like you make me laugh. When I asked you to post from reliable sources, you get personal because you got nothing to offer. Lol. Anyway, I'm not bothered about people like you. Adios.

Nice try to use the "trying to get personal" angle to escape.

Will work with someone else. Not me.

Give answers to the questions raised in my post.

Or else you have just run away from this argument.

There are many points raised in the SIT report that is mentioned in my main post itself. I just refer the sites from where these points came.

Give answers to the points raised by me.

Trying to act cool here won't work.
 
Seriously, I'm telling you..

You were trying to deviate from reliable source argument and trying to change the topic. Lol. Read your previous post. Lol. I was asking about reliable source, but you were trying to change the topic. When I asked you to post from some reliable source, you were replying that Modi could not be nailed because lack of prosecutable evidence..lol. Arey bhaiya if you want me to believe he could not be prosecuted because of lack of evidence but he is morally wrong, then, post some reliable source which nails he is morally corrupt instead of giving dubious websites. I even appreciated you posting from sites like The Hindu, Times of India etc.

Let the world see the hole you are digging yourself into.

If you read my main post and the next post, you would know where I am coming from.

Anyways if my argument is stupid, prove me wrong.

If you can't do it, then don't talk smack.

You think I don't see your strategy of praise and attack. By the third post of yours, I knew that you have nothing to offer. You asked me for reliable source to cross check and I gave you the official report itself. Now you have no plank to stand on.

So prove me wrong or don't talk smack.
 
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What an immature reply!
I'll vote for Modi not because of religious jingoism but because of his promise for development and economic growth, infact even most hindu's are also voting him due to his development of Gujrat and promise for further development for India, that's different that u may not want to believe this.

How naive of you.

This is the most absurd defensive argument from a lot of you people. Lets say, he doesn't build Ram temple then would not he be taken to task by those extremists who are voting him for this? And if he does build this temple as he promised then there could be a wave of sectarian violence but you people would still enjoy yourselves thinking that you did not vote him for doing this.?
Does not it sound ludicrous to your mature mind?

Certainly ! Religious jingoism does not matter for your community as you enjoy majority.

I would say those extremists are better than you educated people who don't cover their faces with the veil of progressive mind-set.

I am not a direct stack holder here so i am leaving this thread for you mature people.
 
How naive of you.

This is the most absurd defensive argument from a lot of you people. Lets say, he doesn't build Ram temple then would not he be taken to task by those extremists who are voting him for this? And if he does build this temple as he promised then there could be a wave of sectarian violence but you people would still enjoy yourselves thinking that you did not vote him for doing this.?
Does not it sound ludicrous to your mature mind?

Certainly ! Religious jingoism does not matter for your community as you enjoy majority.

I would say those extremists are better than you educated people who don't cover their faces with the veil of progressive mind-set.

I am not a direct stack holder here so i am leaving this thread for you mature people.

Battler is right. Many are voting for Modi for development.

Whether that development is something Modi can bring is another question altogether.

India can't have another term of Congress for sure or else it will get destroyed.
 
How naive of you.

This is the most absurd defensive argument from a lot of you people. Lets say, he doesn't build Ram temple then would not he be taken to task by those extremists who are voting him for this? And if he does build this temple as he promised then there could be a wave of sectarian violence but you people would still enjoy yourselves thinking that you did not vote him for doing this.?
Does not it sound ludicrous to your mature mind?

Certainly ! Religious jingoism does not matter for your community as you enjoy majority.

I would say those extremists are better than you educated people who don't cover their faces with the veil of progressive mind-set.

I am not a direct stack holder here so i am leaving this thread for you mature people.

^ U don't live in India, U don't talk to the people here,U don't know the kind of issues people have over here and u call me worse than extremist??
Way to go dude! A very very less % of the hindu populutation will vote for modi because he is a hindu and 'percieved' as right wing, it is neglibile.
You can of-course stay on this thread,but please research more about this topic before u speak rubbish .
Thanks.
 
Battler is right. Many are voting for Modi for development.

Whether that development is something Modi can bring is another question altogether.

India can't have another term of Congress for sure or else it will get destroyed.

Thanks Sif. People think that we are still living in the 90's!
Well a few % still might,but today we are still far better than the 90's religious mindset.
It is the politicians who are trying to play this dirty game and credit for most of India that they are not falling for this.
 
Ha ha. Why should I make the effort? He is the one claiming that he got some" compiled facts " from some dubious websites. Its him who has to come up with some reliable sources if he has named this thread" compiled facts"

On the contrary, you have to come with reliable sources if you think his points are unreliable.
 
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