“Way Muslims are treated today in India has made people realise why Pakistan was born" : Imran Khan

[Zeeraq]

“Way Muslims are treated today in India has made people realise why Pakistan was born" : Imran Khan

ISLAMABAD: Prime Minister Imran Khan on Friday said that the condition of Muslims in today’s India only goes to prove that the demand for a separate homeland was justified.

The prime minister, addressing Baloch students in the capital, said this while emphasising the need for nation-building.

“The way Muslims are treated today in India has made people realise now why Pakistan was born,” he said.

Speaking about the fight against terrorism, the premier said that Pakistan will never fight someone else’s war nor succumb to pressure.

He added that he had always opposed war as a solution to the Afghanistan issue.

Commenting on the recent letter by US President Donald Trump to Pakistan, the prime minister said that those who used to ask Pakistan to ‘do more’ are now asking it to help them establish peace in Afghanistan through talks.

PM Imran Khan in an interview on Thursday with Washington Post reiterated the same and said Pakistan will not be treated like anyone’s hire gun.

Responding to a question regarding his vision for Pakistan's relationship with the US, PM Imran said, “I would never want to have a relationship where Pakistan is treated like a hired gun — given money to fight someone else’s war. We should never put ourselves in this position again. It not only cost us human lives, devastation of our tribal areas, but it also cost us our dignity. We would like a proper relationship with the US.”

https://www.geo.tv/latest/221091-do-not-enjoy-equal-rights-in-india-pm-imran

 

[tonmoy]

Here is my 2 cents.
Minorities do not enjoy equal rights in Bangladesh Pakistan and India.
That being said,
Minorities are still better protected in India > Bangladesh > Pakistan.

 

[Something]

Instead of commenting on India he should focus on minority rights in his own country. At least, Muslims have some some rights in India. In Pakistan, minorities have no rights whatsoever.

 

[hafeezrocks]

Why should we bother about whether or not Indian Muslims are being treated equally in their country ?

 

[JaDed]

And we were told India doesn't matter politically in Pakistan lol

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Here is my 2 cents.
Minorities do not enjoy equal rights in Bangladesh Pakistan and India.
That being said,
Minorities are still better protected in India > Bangladesh > Pakistan.

Instead of commenting on India he should focus on minority rights in his own country. At least, Muslims have some some rights in India. In Pakistan, minorities have no rights whatsoever.

Whataboutery is all well and good, but it doesn't address whether what he is saying is valid or not. As someone who has often voiced my opinion AGAINST the creation of Pakistan, I have recently had to swallow a bitter pill of realisation that without it, the Mughal history which formed such a rich part of Indian tapestry would be in danger of being wiped out.


The counter argument would be that with the creation of Pakistan and Bangladesh, the Muslim voice of India was forever divided and culled to a percentage of what it once was. This has created an imbalance where you have overly Islamic sections in Bangladesh and Pakistan, and an India which is lurching ever more towards Hindutva at the same time.

 

[amax]

Why should we bother about whether or not Indian Muslims are being treated equally in their country ?

yeah indian muslims are non of our concern

 

[cricketjoshila]

Apna mulk sambhalta nahi isse aur baat karne chalein hai India ke baare mein.

 

[BlackShadow]

So how are Muslims treated in Pakistan? Surely better healthcare, education, freedom of religion and quality of life in general, correct?

 

[Itachi]

The financial mess that Pakistan is in, imran should concentrate on cleaning his own house rather than wasting energy on something which is irrelevant either way to you.

Looks like he's becoming true politician. He is starting to speak what the mass wants to hear and take away the attention from all the mess that he probably won't be able to provide any resolution.

 

[tonmoy]

Whataboutery is all well and good, but it doesn't address whether what he is saying is valid or not. As someone who has often voiced my opinion AGAINST the creation of Pakistan, I have recently had to swallow a bitter pill of realisation that without it, the Mughal history which formed such a rich part of Indian tapestry would be in danger of being wiped out.


The counter argument would be that with the creation of Pakistan and Bangladesh, the Muslim voice of India was forever divided and culled to a percentage of what it once was. This has created an imbalance where you have overly Islamic sections in Bangladesh and Pakistan, and an India which is lurching ever more towards Hindutva at the same time.

I thought Taj Mahal is still there in all its glory. I do not see Taj or any of Mughal history being wiped out as such. Neither do I hear about mass shooting/bombing in minority places of worship.

I love Bangladesh too much (As a Bangladeshi) to ever want to be a part of any other country. However I do agree with your point. Heterogeneous and diverse society is much better overall than a homogeneous society.

Now to the point of the thread,
Imran Khan should be the last one to complain. He is only being an hypocrite. He himself failed to protect equal rights by not giving Atif Mian the position he deserved. He gave in to extremist demand and Asia bibi is currently living in torrid life in Pakistan. The justice of the court had to flee... I mean seriously he should not speak for minority.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Apna mulk sambhalta nahi isse aur baat karne chalein hai India ke baare mein.

More whataboutery. Our Indian members seem to be uncomfortable to discuss whether the decision to divide India along religious lines was justified, which is of course what Imran is putting forward.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I thought Taj Mahal is still there in all its glory. I do not see Taj or any of Mughal history being wiped out as such. Neither do I hear about mass shooting/bombing in minority places of worship.

I love Bangladesh too much (As a Bangladeshi) to ever want to be a part of any other country. However I do agree with your point. Heterogeneous and diverse society is much better overall than a homogeneous society.

Now to the point of the thread,
Imran Khan should be the last one to complain. He is only being an hypocrite. He himself failed to protect equal rights by not giving Atif Mian the position he deserved. He gave in to extremist demand and Asia bibi is currently living in torrid life in Pakistan. The justice of the court had to flee... I mean seriously he should not speak for minority.

Streets and city name changes are already entering the due process phase, the Babri Masjid was razed to rebuild as a Hindu temple. I haven't even mentioned beef bans or Hindutva parties winning the vote to form government yet. This is the thin end of the wedge, and indeed it was the very reason Bangladesh and Pakistan were fought for by Mr Jinnah.

 

[CricketCartoons]

I thought Taj Mahal is still there in all its glory. I do not see Taj or any of Mughal history being wiped out as such. Neither do I hear about mass shooting/bombing in minority places of worship.

taj mahal is a mediocre monument, the world will not miss anything if it is demolished. i was there last week on a fact finding mission, found it much shorter and dirtier than i had imagined. i heard it looks better on a moonlit night, but i am more interested in accessing the underground vaults which hide the evidence that it was built over an ancient temple.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Streets and city name changes are already entering the due process phase, the Babri Masjid was razed to rebuild as a Hindu temple. I haven't even mentioned beef bans or Hindutva parties winning the vote to form government yet. This is the thin end of the wedge, and indeed it was the very reason Bangladesh and Pakistan were fought for by Mr Jinnah.

cart before the horse. the hindus can do this with impunity for the precise reason that the elite and resourceful muslims are separated from the indian muslims.

 

[Swashbuckler]

He is right in the sense that partition was inevitable because of historical baggage and stark difference in way of life between the communities, Mr Jinnah was right while Gandhiji was delusional. From an Indian pov if nothing else, the events in my country post 2014 have proved that the idea of partition was always on the cards. Imagine the turmoil, conflict, hatred and violence had there been a united Greater India today? In fact I would go a step further and say that there should have been more partitions done like Independent Kashmir, Bangladesh (in 1947 itself), parts of North East India, Balochistan etc, may be more (along religious, ethnic, linguistic lines). It would have been in everyone's interest to get these conflicts and struggles of co-existence out of the way in 1947 itself. May be after that there would have been more peace and an EU style arrangement for strong economic ties between the various new countries. This whole region would have been much better off had the leaders of that era been more practical, generous and most importantly with less ego.

However as the PM of Pakistan Imran Khan should also address minority rights in Pakistan in equal measure. Muslims face a tough time in India just like minorities in almost all 3rd world countries. But Pakistan is quite poor even by lowly South Asian standards in this regard. IK hasn't done much to assuage the insecurities of a section of his own countrymen which is underwhelming. He has a popular mandate, liberal upbringing and exposure to different cultures/countries due to his past profession. I don't think he has spoken much about the challenges faced by Pakistani Hindus/Christians/Ahmedis etc, he can't be a modern day Nero and hope to be an agent of positive change concurrently.

 

[enkidu_]

He's right, one just has to look at the Sachar committee work, a holistic report on Muslim socio economic condition in Hindustan, and far from getting better, in many parameters it went worse after a decade or so :

(...)
An analysis of government data show that most indicators have not seen significant improvement in the years since the Report was submitted. In some cases things seem to have, in fact, deteriorated — in 2005, for example, the share of Muslims among India’s police forces was 7.63%; in 2013, it fell to 6.27%. The government subsequently stopped releasing data on police personnel broken down by religion.

In the years both preceding and following Sachar, Muslims continued to have the lowest average monthly per capita expenditure (MPCE) among all communities. The work participation rate for Muslim men increased only slightly to 49.5% in 2011 from 47.5% in 2001; for Muslim women, the increase was even smaller, from 14.1% in 2001 to 14.8% in 2011.

Perhaps the most telling figures are in the IAS and IPS, the country’s top officialdom. The Sachar Committee recorded the percentage of Muslims in the IAS and IPS as 3% and 4% respectively. These numbers were 3.32% and 3.19% respectively on January 1, 2016, Home Ministry data show. The fall in Muslim representation in the IPS was due primarily to a steep fall in the share of Muslim promotee officers in the IPS — from 7.1% in the Sachar Report to merely 3.82% at the beginning of 2016.

As per the Census of 2001, Muslims were 13.43% of India’s population; in 2011, they were 14.2%. The increase of 24.69% in the population of Muslims between the two Censuses was the smallest ever recorded for the community.

The sex ratio among Muslims remained better than that of India overall in both 2001 and 2011, and the percentage of Muslims living in urban centres too remained higher than the national average in both Censuses.

https://indianexpress.com/article/e...e-in-the-condition-of-indias-muslims-4444809/

in few words Hindustan is not for the Muslims/Dalits/Adivasis, or nearly half of its total population.

 

[CricketCartoons]

He's right, one just has to look at the Sachar committee work, a holistic report on Muslim socio economic condition in Hindustan, and far from getting better, in many parameters it went worse after a decade or so :

he is right about the condition of indian muslims, but he is wrong in his logic, just like his fans. partition caused a sort of observer effect, it altered the conditions of the indian muslims, so only a fool will think that the result was not affected by the altered conditions.

 

[Hitman]

LOL, and this man wants to have peace talks with India. Perhaps he doesn't realize that Muslims in India don't give bloody two hoots about Pakistan

 

[enkidu_]

he is right about the condition of indian muslims, but he is wrong in his logic, just like his fans. partition caused a sort of observer effect, it altered the conditions of the indian muslims, so only a fool will think that the result was not affected by the altered conditions.

you're talking in the sense that the old élite from UP, Hyderabad, etc migrated to Pak (mainly Karachi) ? The argument has its weight, but IMO the rise of Hindu nationalism, like Islamism elsewhere, etc is simpler : it's the self-awareness of the "middle class". Tocqueville some 150 years ago already said that the middle class is characterized by economic liberalism but societal conservatism. The reason for the so called "communal harmony" (let's admit it ever existed) was due to the fact that, let's be cynical, Muslims and Hindus were Muslims and Hindus only by name ; but be becoming middle class, that is, literature, aware of their history and culture, etc they're bound to turn Hindu nationalists, Islamists, etc it's basically a sociological phenomenon no one will be able to stop, and something that Jinnah basically foresaw when he saw hints of Hindu rhetoric among the Congress leaders (Gandhi and cow protection, etc), something vindicated by William Gould in his study on the Congress in UP and how it mobilized Hindu nationalist rhetoric from the 30s onwards.

 

[enkidu_]

LOL, and this man wants to have peace talks with India. Perhaps he doesn't realize that Muslims in India don't give bloody two hoots about Pakistan

I think you don't understand : Pakistan has cursed Muslims of India forever. If Jinnah, British Raj's youngest lawyer at 16, part time Shakespearean actor and more importantly the blue eyed boy of "nationalists" like Tilak (who came up with the "swaraj" idea) and Sarojini Naidu (who wrote a whole booklet on him) can turn from a "secular Westernized nationalist" to an "Islamist" who destroys Akhand Bharat, then 99% of Muslims of India have more chances to follow this path, being less intellectual/modernized than him. The "Jinnah curse" is on every Muslim of India, and any honest Hindu nationalist here would assess the same. Just wait when Muslims become a more important minority (30-35%, in few years).

 

[Hitman]

I think you don't understand : Pakistan has cursed Muslims of India forever. If Jinnah, British Raj's youngest lawyer at 16, part time Shakespearean actor and more importantly the blue eyed boy of "nationalists" like Tilak (who came up with the "swaraj" idea) and Sarojini Naidu (who wrote a whole booklet on him) can turn from a "secular Westernized nationalist" to an "Islamist" who destroys Akhand Bharat, then 99% of Muslims of India have more chances to follow this path, being less intellectual/modernized than him. The "Jinnah curse" is on every Muslim of India, and any honest Hindu nationalist here would assess the same. Just wait when Muslims become a more important minority (30-35%, in few years).

Except that I know more about Muslims in my place than you do. They don't give bloody two hoots about Pakistan.

 

[CricketCartoons]

you're talking in the sense that the old élite from UP, Hyderabad, etc migrated to Pak (mainly Karachi) ? The argument has its weight, but IMO the rise of Hindu nationalism, like Islamism elsewhere, etc is simpler : it's the self-awareness of the "middle class". Tocqueville some 150 years ago already said that the middle class is characterized by economic liberalism but societal conservatism. The reason for the so called "communal harmony" (let's admit it ever existed) was due to the fact that, let's be cynical, Muslims and Hindus were Muslims and Hindus only by name ; but be becoming middle class, that is, literature, aware of their history and culture, etc they're bound to turn Hindu nationalists, Islamists, etc it's basically a sociological phenomenon no one will be able to stop, and something that Jinnah basically foresaw when he saw hints of Hindu rhetoric among the Congress leaders (Gandhi and cow protection, etc), something vindicated by William Gould in his study on the Congress in UP and how it mobilized Hindu nationalist rhetoric from the 30s onwards.

I am not talking about any communal harmony, and not just about the migration of the elite muslims from up/hyderabad, but the altered situation caused by the partition itself.

the situation of indian muslims cannot be used as a vindication of partition when partition itself plays a part in that situation. indian muslims not only lost their elite, but 2/3rd of their numbers due to partition. imran khan's statement is good for rhetoric, to please pakistanis and burn indians, but fails on logic.

 

[Something]

Whataboutery is all well and good, but it doesn't address whether what he is saying is valid or not. As someone who has often voiced my opinion AGAINST the creation of Pakistan, I have recently had to swallow a bitter pill of realisation that without it, the Mughal history which formed such a rich part of Indian tapestry would be in danger of being wiped out.


The counter argument would be that with the creation of Pakistan and Bangladesh, the Muslim voice of India was forever divided and culled to a percentage of what it once was. This has created an imbalance where you have overly Islamic sections in Bangladesh and Pakistan, and an India which is lurching ever more towards Hindutva at the same time.

Why does it matter whether what he is saying is valid or not. It should be of no concern to him or any other Pakistani how minorities are treated in India. Why must Pakistan be the flag bearer of the Muslim Ummah all accross the globe?

If he wants to speak about injustice and lack of rights of minorities, he should focus on Pakistan and start with the Ahmedi's

 

[ILcricket]

Justifying existence of his Country ? IK is not very bright .

 

[topspin]

I like Imran Khan but he didn't need to bring this up.

When I see cases like Asia Bibi and how other Christians have been a victim in our country, it is rich of us and a nice diversion from where the bigger problem lies for minorities in SE Asia.

We can all agree at least that Pakistan and India need to improve on how minorities are treated.

 

[cricketjoshila]

More whataboutery. Our Indian members seem to be uncomfortable to discuss whether the decision to divide India along religious lines was justified, which is of course what Imran is putting forward.

Partition happened in 1947. Imran Khan must now manage the country he has.

Indians are doing fairly better than Pakistanis on most indicators.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Streets and city name changes are already entering the due process phase, the Babri Masjid was razed to rebuild as a Hindu temple. I haven't even mentioned beef bans or Hindutva parties winning the vote to form government yet. This is the thin end of the wedge, and indeed it was the very reason Bangladesh and Pakistan were fought for by Mr Jinnah.

So M A Jinnah was alive in 1971? I thought Sheikh Mujib ur Rehman fought to separate BD from the Country Jinnah created.

 

[CricketCartoons]

imran khan is lowering the bar for pakistanis by showing the situation of indian muslims.

 

[cricketjoshila]

So IK is now down to the state where he has to justify the very existence of his country.

 

[enkidu_]

I am not talking about any communal harmony, and not just about the migration of the elite muslims from up/hyderabad, but the altered situation caused by the partition itself.

the situation of indian muslims cannot be used as a vindication of partition when partition itself plays a part in that situation. indian muslims not only lost their elite, but 2/3rd of their numbers due to partition. imran khan's statement is good for rhetoric, to please pakistanis and burn indians, but fails on logic.

perhaps, but whatever the complex reasons, the Sachar report vindicates Imran Khan's views on the issue.

 

[Madplayer]

Lots of Indians triggered here because they know there is truth in his statements.

 

[Something]

Interesting how my fellow Pakistani's are beating their chests over this nonsensical statement without looking into how minorities are treated in our own home.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Lots of Indians triggered here because they know there is truth in his statements.

imran khan has aimed two set of people with his comment. indians who like to believe they are a haven for minorities, and pakistanis who think they are free because they are not being ruled by a ram singh.

 

[Madplayer]

imran khan has aimed two set of people with his comment. indians who like to believe they are a haven for minorities, and pakistanis who think they are free because they are not being ruled by a ram singh.

Freedom is ALSO a state of mind. If Pakistanis feel they are free, why to complain?

 

[CricketCartoons]

Freedom is ALSO a state of mind. If Pakistanis feel they are free, why to complain?

not complaining. i like it this way if pakistanis are happy with the low bar they have set for themselves by looking at the indian muslims. i would be complaining if they have a higher bar one day.

 

[Napa]

But as far as psychological warfare goes, Imran: 1, India: 0.

I thought the job for IK was to improve Pakistan's economy rather than waste time scoring points against India.

 

[Napa]

Freedom is ALSO a state of mind. If Pakistanis feel they are free, why to complain?

Pakistani Hindus and Christians do not feel free when they are in the danger of being lynched on a blasphemy charge brought by some antagonistic Muslims.

 

[CricketCartoons]

in imran khan, pakistan have got their own modi.

 

[Madplayer]

not complaining. i like it this way if pakistanis are happy with the low bar they have set for themselves by looking at the indian muslims. i would be complaining if they have a higher bar one day.

Dont think they have set a low bar or a high bar in terms of how free they are. They are happy in whatever freedom that they have as we can see even on this forum. If that freedom is more than what Indian muslims get, then that gives them a chance to taunt the Indian muslims for choosing to stay in India. Its a win win for them.

 

[Madplayer]

Pakistani Hindus and Christians do not feel free when they are in the danger of being lynched on a blasphemy charge brought by some antagonistic Muslims.

I am sure they don't. But hey, they can still eat beef if they want.

 

[tonmoy]

I am sure they don't. But hey, they can still eat beef if they want.

Quick question
Is bacon or pork sold in Pakistan (easily available)?

 

[CricketCartoons]

Dont think they have set a low bar or a high bar in terms of how free they are. They are happy in whatever freedom that they have as we can see even on this forum. If that freedom is more than what Indian muslims get, then that gives them a chance to taunt the Indian muslims for choosing to stay in India. Its a win win for them.

I would like to believe it was just to taunt the indians, but imran khan using it says otherwise, that they have actually set their bar too low, that even imran khan of all people knows that.

 

[Greenstorm]

and they can be bullied because they lost the abbasis, the farooqis, the mirzas and the maliks. and now the same farooqis and the true blood descendants are using the end result to retrofit an effect on the cause.

Muslims were getting bullied before partition as well when the Abbasis, Farooqis and Maliks were still among there ranks. Most of businesses in present day Pakistan were owned by Hindus. There is a beautiful haveli even in the center of Attock city that is believed to be owned by a Hindu family before partition .

 

[CricketCartoons]

Muslims were getting bullied before partition as well when the Abbasis, Farooqis and Maliks were still among there ranks. Most of businesses in present day Pakistan were owned by Hindus. There is a beautiful haveli even in the center of Attock city that is believed to be owned by a Hindu family before partition .

i can believe the lowly indian muslims to be bullied by hindus, but find it sacrilegious that even the blue blood ones (according to enkidu) were also bullied by hindu baniyas.

 

[KingKhanWC]

IK is not justifying Pakistani existance as there is nothing justify, it was the only reality possible at the time.

Minorities suffer in most countries, even in the UK to some extent but what people are not understanding India is a unique case. Religiouis extremists are in power who want to wipe out their history of Muslim rule and thus have changed names of Muslim places, banned slaughter of cows, government officials have spoken against Muslims etc. Pakistan does not do this to their minorities even though they are much smaller in number.

 

[sjahmed23]

Calling spade a spade. Kissi ki aag lagay tou lagay. Pakistan does not call itself a secular state, unlike the biggest democracy in the world where cows are more important than people.

 

[Greenstorm]

i can believe the lowly indian muslims to be bullied by hindus, but find it sacrilegious that even the blue blood ones (according to enkidu) were also bullied by hindu baniyas.

Minorities are bullied in every society in one way or another. Although Muslims generally resist violently when oppressed (hence the partition). Don't know what has happened to Indian Muslims.

This 'baniyaness' is an admirable quality among hindus(same with jews). I have heard from elders that how in our village, all the shops were owned by Hindus and how they controlled financial and administrative aspect of our village. And I am talking about Potohar region belonging to so called 'martial race'.

 

[enkidu_]

Minorities are bullied in every society in one way or another. Although Muslims generally resist violently when oppressed (hence the partition). Don't know what has happened to Indian Muslims.

This 'baniyaness' is an admirable quality among hindus(same with jews). I have heard from elders that how in our village, all the shops were owned by Hindus and how they controlled financial and administrative aspect of our village. And I am talking about Potohar region belonging to so called 'martial race'.

yes Jews like Hindu baniyas and some other communities studied by Amy Chua (Chinese in Malaysia/Indonesia and so on) are by default materialistic and greedy by nature, so in a "liberal" "democracy" they'll always bully everyone else for upward social mobility, they have this Machiavellian type of rationality that you don't find in the aristocratic races which makes them so successful in the "modern" (understand : immoral, décadent, etc) world, that's why they're target of all kinds of sarcasms from their immediate and mediate neighbors (Sikh-Jatts about the "bhapa" archetype, etc).

Partition was thus an experience in social engineering by making sure that the Hindu middle class gets replaced by an Islamic one, otherwise Punjabi-Khatri's would have dominated current PK like they dominated current India not only in economy but also in Bollywood (Kapoor's, Khanna's, Arora's, etc) and cricket (Kohli's, Dhawan's, etc).

Kicking out the Punjabi-Khatri's was noble.

 

[161]

Imran didn't go far enough -

1. The ways Muslims are treated
2. The extensive harassment of women
3. The suppression of lower castes
4. Crimes against Sikhs, Kashmiris and other groups

 

[Azmi]

I will stand with Imran Khan on his statement regarding India, if he also admits openly that minorities are exploited in Pakistan and they don't have equal rights, and ONLY a Secular System (like Europe) could bring equal rights to minorities in Pakistan.

Actually Secularism could also do nothing against the religious bigotry. We see it in case of India where religious Hindus do all the things which are against the Secular Values. While no one even expect that minorities will ever get any equal rights due to the presence of the religious Islamic system in Pakistan.

 

[Napa]

yes Jews like Hindu baniyas and some other communities studied by Amy Chua (Chinese in Malaysia/Indonesia and so on) are by default materialistic and greedy by nature, so in a "liberal" "democracy" they'll always bully everyone else for upward social mobility, they have this Machiavellian type of rationality that you don't find in the aristocratic races which makes them so successful in the "modern" (understand : immoral, décadent, etc) world, that's why they're target of all kinds of sarcasms from their immediate and mediate neighbors (Sikh-Jatts about the "bhapa" archetype, etc).

Hindu Baniyas are "by default materialistic and greedy by nature, so in a "liberal" "democracy" they'll always bully everyone else for upward social mobility, they have this Machiavellian type of rationality that you don't find in the aristocratic races which makes them so successful in the "modern" (understand : immoral, décadent, etc) world"?

Here is a "Hindu Baniya" for you.

https://healthcare.mckinsey.com/ajay-gupta

Gupta got into IIT and Stanford due to excelling in academics and not "Machiavellian type of rationality". He worked for Schlumberger and McKinsey, rising to Senior Partner because he was well liked and good at his job, not because he "bullied" anyone. He also happens to be a triathlete.

I assume you consider yourself from one of the oppressed former aristocratic race. What have you achieved in life that compares to what Gupta has?

Having these stereotypes will only fill you with hate and make your life worse.

 

[Greenstorm]

yes Jews like Hindu baniyas and some other communities studied by Amy Chua (Chinese in Malaysia/Indonesia and so on) are by default materialistic and greedy by nature, so in a "liberal" "democracy" they'll always bully everyone else for upward social mobility, they have this Machiavellian type of rationality that you don't find in the aristocratic races which makes them so successful in the "modern" (understand : immoral, décadent, etc) world, that's why they're target of all kinds of sarcasms from their immediate and mediate neighbors (Sikh-Jatts about the "bhapa" archetype, etc).

Partition was thus an experience in social engineering by making sure that the Hindu middle class gets replaced by an Islamic one, otherwise Punjabi-Khatri's would have dominated current PK like they dominated current India not only in economy but also in Bollywood (Kapoor's, Khanna's, Arora's, etc) and cricket (Kohli's, Dhawan's, etc).

Kicking out the Punjabi-Khatri's was noble.

Yes indeed it was. If Punjabi Khatri's(I think you mean Hindu middle/upper class as I am not aware of this term) were not kicked out, I am sure I would have been either a farmer working for some baniya to whom I can't pay my debts or a lowly soldier taking orders from a Hindu commander .

We can't thank Quaid-e-Azam enough. We owe a lot to him.

 

[enkidu_]

Hindu Baniyas are "by default materialistic and greedy by nature, so in a "liberal" "democracy" they'll always bully everyone else for upward social mobility, they have this Machiavellian type of rationality that you don't find in the aristocratic races which makes them so successful in the "modern" (understand : immoral, décadent, etc) world"?

Here is a "Hindu Baniya" for you.

https://healthcare.mckinsey.com/ajay-gupta

Gupta got into IIT and Stanford due to excelling in academics and not "Machiavellian type of rationality". He worked for Schlumberger and McKinsey, rising to Senior Partner because he was well liked and good at his job, not because he "bullied" anyone. He also happens to be a triathlete.

I assume you consider yourself from one of the oppressed former aristocratic race. What have you achieved in life that compares to what Gupta has?

Having these stereotypes will only fill you with hate and make your life worse.

Why didn't you bring up the +100 ethnic Jewish Nobel laureates/Field medalists/etc instead to make your "point" ? This Gupta guy could have conquered all the galaxies but with his materialism he'd still be slave to his own self/body.

Even as per your own Hindu mythology/eschatology, what do you call a society where the shudra "triumphs" over the brahmin and the kshatriya, or that the latter have to adapt/adopt the "qualities" of the former in order to shine ? Kali-yuga.

 

[Greenstorm]

yes Jews like Hindu baniyas and some other communities studied by Amy Chua (Chinese in Malaysia/Indonesia and so on) are by default materialistic and greedy by nature, so in a "liberal" "democracy" they'll always bully everyone else for upward social mobility, they have this Machiavellian type of rationality that you don't find in the aristocratic races which makes them so successful in the "modern" (understand : immoral, décadent, etc) world, that's why they're target of all kinds of sarcasms from their immediate and mediate neighbors (Sikh-Jatts about the "bhapa" archetype, etc).

Partition was thus an experience in social engineering by making sure that the Hindu middle class gets replaced by an Islamic one, otherwise Punjabi-Khatri's would have dominated current PK like they dominated current India not only in economy but also in Bollywood (Kapoor's, Khanna's, Arora's, etc) and cricket (Kohli's, Dhawan's, etc).

Kicking out the Punjabi-Khatri's was noble.

Also I do feel that we can adopt some of the Baniya qualities(those which are not directly against Islam/morality).
Rationality, hardwork, competitive mindset can make our country(an Islamic republic) prosper.

 

[JaDed]

Imran didn't go far enough -

1. The ways Muslims are treated
2. The extensive harassment of women
3. The suppression of lower castes
4. Crimes against Sikhs, Kashmiris and other groups

5.Letting Ahmedis being called Muslims in India
6.Allowing Sharia in India and not Pakistan
7.Having the richest Muslim in South Asia Azim Premji

 

[enkidu_]

Also I do feel that we can adopt some of the Baniya qualities(those which are not directly against Islam/morality).
Rationality, hardwork, competitive mindset can make our country(an Islamic republic) prosper.

Yeah, David Graeber (even though he's a Jewish anarchist) in his famed book on debt had interesting chapters on how Islam espoused a form of proto capitalism which led to prosperity all around the Mediterranean world and beyond, after all the prophet (s) began as a merchant. If you want to dig the subject further there's a recent (released a year ago) book which might be of interest to you, "Capitalism and Religion in World History" by Carl Mosk :

Purity condemns filth; piety disparages corruption. Amassing riches offered to a transcendental world, the priests of ancient faiths found themselves trapped in contradiction. By loaning out their resources to merchants, they made themselves pariahs to true prophets. Before Islam squared the circle, bringing capital mobility and credit creation into coexistence with devotion, religion stymied merchant capitalism. Spread through trade, Islam's innovations in commerce soothed the path to coexistence of credit and faith globally. Had a second form of capitalism - technological capitalism - not emerged, binding science to innovation, harmony between faith and capitalism would have prevailed. However, scientific advances deepen on empirical evidence that is buttressed by critical debate, which is anathema to powerful elites in countries saturated with religious nationalism. Consequently, easy cooperation between capitalism and religion is blocked in these lands, and so their potential for economic progress withers. Thus, many of these states, trapped in the invidious stranglehold of religion, are condemned to sustained poverty.

https://www.amazon.com/Capitalism-Religion-World-History-Purification/dp/1138303496

 

[MenInG]

Apna mulk sambhalta nahi isse aur baat karne chalein hai India ke baare mein.

Maybe some examples why you think Imran is not able to take care of his own country?

 

[Mamoon]

And what should we realise after looking at the treatment of minorities in Pakistan? Pathetic statement by Imran but not surprised. It is the norm for him. I would have liked to write a lengthy post on this issue but I feel it would be pointless.

 

[KingKhanWC]

And what should we realise after looking at the treatment of minorities in Pakistan? Pathetic statement by Imran but not surprised. It is the norm for him. I would have liked to write a lengthy post on this issue but I feel it would be pointless.

Again a very poor post with the same lame argument. As I wrote earlier, you have an extremist Hindu government in power in India. BJP officials reguarly threaten, abuse and discount Muslims. There have been laws passed which favour the majority, such as beef ban. Muslims names of places have been changed. Can you tell me how the Pakistani goverment is the same?

 

[Mamoon]

Again a very poor post with the same lame argument. As I wrote earlier, you have an extremist Hindu government in power in India. BJP officials reguarly threaten, abuse and discount Muslims. There have been laws passed which favour the majority, such as beef ban. Muslims names of places have been changed. Can you tell me how the Pakistani goverment is the same?

Other than declining the services of one of the brightest economists in the world for his religious beliefs because it made the right-wing upset, it has not done much.

 

[Mamoon]

Again a very poor post with the same lame argument. As I wrote earlier, you have an extremist Hindu government in power in India. BJP officials reguarly threaten, abuse and discount Muslims. There have been laws passed which favour the majority, such as beef ban. Muslims names of places have been changed. Can you tell me how the Pakistani goverment is the same?

And why is beef ban an issue? India is a Hindu majority country after all. Are you also critical of the fact that pork cannot be sold openly in Pakistan?

Oh wait I forgot. Unlike India, Pakistan does not call itself secular, so it is under no obligation to serve the rights of the minorities. Ultimately, it all comes down to what you call yourself. I guess it is very easy for Modi and BJP - they should declare India a Hindu state and thus get away with treating the minorities with disdain like Pakistan.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Other than declining the services of one of the brightest economists in the world for his religious beliefs because it made the right-wing upset, it has not done much.

lol. Is that all?

Has there been a case of a minister rewarding those who murdered a minority?

Union minister Jayant Sinha garlands 8 lynching convicts, fa ..

Read more at:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

 

[KingKhanWC]

And why is beef ban an issue? India is a Hindu majority country after all. Are you also critical of the fact that pork cannot be sold openly in Pakistan?

Oh wait I forgot. Unlike India, Pakistan does not call itself secular, so it is under no obligation to serve the rights of the minorities. Ultimately, it all comes down to what you call yourself. I guess it is very easy for Modi and BJP - they should declare India a Hindu state and thus get away with treating the minorities with disdain like Pakistan.

I didn't realise you thought India was a Hindu republic, isn't it a secular nation?

 

[Mamoon]

lol. Is that all?

Has there been a case of a minister rewarding those who murdered a minority?

And what has our government done to deal with Shia genocide? Nothing. Pakistan should be the last country in the world to criticise others for not respecting minority rights. Indian Muslims may not be as privileged as Indian Hindus, but they are still much better off than minorities in Pakistan.

 

[Mamoon]

I didn't realise you thought India was a Hindu republic, isn't it a secular nation?

Thanks for confirming. The problem is not with abusing minority rights but calling yourself what you are not. All they have to do is follow Pakistan's footsteps and not call themselves secular. That is all you need to ensure that you can continue to discriminate against minorities but will avoid the criticism because you are not secular.

 

[KingKhanWC]

And what has our government done to deal with Shia genocide? Nothing. Pakistan should be the last country in the world to criticise others for not respecting minority rights. Indian Muslims may not be as privileged as Indian Hindus, but they are still much better off than minorities in Pakistan.

Thanks for confirming. The problem is not with abusing minority rights but calling yourself what you are not. All they have to do is follow Pakistan's footsteps and not call themselves secular. That is all you need to ensure that you can continue to discriminate against minorities but will avoid the criticism because you are not secular.

Pakistsani government does not openly hate on minorities and neither does it hang garlands around the necks of those who have butchred minorities. What people do has no bearing on the ruling powers, so I wont hold BJP responsible for the many many lynchings of Muslims even though they have spread the hate.

Are you saying Indian government has the right to do such things?

 

[Mamoon]

Pakistsani government does not openly hate on minorities and neither does it hang garlands around the necks of those who have butchred minorities. What people do has no bearing on the ruling powers, so I wont hold BJP responsible for the many many lynchings of Muslims even though they have spread the hate.

Are you saying Indian government has the right to do such things?

Hanging garlands around their necks is what their master (the military) does, our government merely bends over backwards to appease their wishes. I see no effective difference between a government that openly supports the oppression of minorities and a government that does nothing about it because it has the spine of a jelly.

With all said and done, it is un undeniable fact that Muslims in India are still in a much better position than minorities in Pakistan. However, denial is our national sport so nothing is going to change on this front.

 

[Napa]

Why didn't you bring up the +100 ethnic Jewish Nobel laureates/Field medalists/etc instead to make your "point" ? This Gupta guy could have conquered all the galaxies but with his materialism he'd still be slave to his own self/body.

Even as per your own Hindu mythology/eschatology, what do you call a society where the shudra "triumphs" over the brahmin and the kshatriya, or that the latter have to adapt/adopt the "qualities" of the former in order to shine ? Kali-yuga.

I assume you have transcended material desires and are liberated from this debased world unlike the rest of us mere mortals.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Hanging garlands around their necks is what their master (the military) does, our government merely bends over backwards to appease their wishes. I see no effective difference between a government that openly supports the oppression of minorities and a government that does nothing about it because it has the spine of a jelly.

With all said and done, it is un undeniable fact that Muslims in India are still in a much better position than minorities in Pakistan. However, denial is our national sport so nothing is going to change on this front.

lol. So the Indian government officials openly hate on Muslims, worship Muslim killers, have a PM who has the blood of hundreds of Muslims on his hands yet Pakistan are worse.

You should move to India, if you're not already there. Your defence of India is embarrsing if you're a Pakistani but if you're Indian it's the exact copy of BJP fans.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Why does it matter whether what he is saying is valid or not. It should be of no concern to him or any other Pakistani how minorities are treated in India. Why must Pakistan be the flag bearer of the Muslim Ummah all accross the globe?

If he wants to speak about injustice and lack of rights of minorities, he should focus on Pakistan and start with the Ahmedi's

Did you agree with that advice when Modi ji arranged for fast-track Indian visas for non-Abrahamic minorities in Pakistan?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

And why is beef ban an issue? India is a Hindu majority country after all. Are you also critical of the fact that pork cannot be sold openly in Pakistan?

Oh wait I forgot. Unlike India, Pakistan does not call itself secular, so it is under no obligation to serve the rights of the minorities. Ultimately, it all comes down to what you call yourself. I guess it is very easy for Modi and BJP - they should declare India a Hindu state and thus get away with treating the minorities with disdain like Pakistan.

You are right, Pakistan is not secular, it is an Islamic republic, but it is incorrect to say it is under no obligation to serve it's minorities. If anything it is under even more obligation to give them their due.

Whether Modi ji and the BJP finally declare officially a Hindu state is of no concern to Pakistan, in that you are right, other than historical hindsight. Imran Khan's statements as to the creation of Pakistan need to be seen in that light.

 

[gazza619]

Here is my 2 cents.
Minorities do not enjoy equal rights in Bangladesh Pakistan and India.
That being said,
Minorities are still better protected in India > Bangladesh > Pakistan.

There are about 200 million muslims in India.
There are about 4 million non-muslims in Pakistan.
If India does not give muslim a decent treatment, there would be chaos.
You do the maths. Thats my 2 cents.

 

[moghul]

Here is my 2 cents.
Minorities do not enjoy equal rights in Bangladesh Pakistan and India.
That being said,
Minorities are still better protected in India > Bangladesh > Pakistan.

Yeah, definitely in India, ask Kashmiris.

 

[PakLFC]

I do not agree with IK at all. Pak was born because certain Muslims wanted to to create a country where Islam is practised like it should be. Thus far we have not achieved that at all. We have one Pakistan of secular liberalism aping the west and another of right wing Mullah nutcases who see blasphemy everywhere. Naturally being Muslim majority there will be less religious discrimination towards them. I am not gonna use the condition of Indian Muslims to offset how we treat our minorities. Good or bad Indian Muslim's are not our problem at all but Pakistani non Muslim's are our concern.

 

[Madplayer]

Quick question
Is bacon or pork sold in Pakistan (easily available)?

1)India is a secular republic. There is no religion of the state of India as per constitution of India. Pakistan is an Islamic republic.

2) who eats bacon and pork in Pakistan? Pretty sure the demand would be negligible enough to simply ban it. Even the market forces wont be afffected much by this ban. Unlike the demand for beef in India which is massive.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Maybe some examples why you think Imran is not able to take care of his own country?

Is IMF bailout now no more needed?

 

[Itachi]

Quick question
Is bacon or pork sold in Pakistan (easily available)?

Have this question answered?

 

[CricketCartoons]

5.Letting Ahmedis being called Muslims in India
6.Allowing Sharia in India and not Pakistan
7.Having the richest Muslim in South Asia Azim Premji

it is a shame that you have become another joshila.

 

[Itachi]

1)India is a secular republic. There is no religion of the state of India as per constitution of India. Pakistan is an Islamic republic.

2) who eats bacon and pork in Pakistan? Pretty sure the demand would be negligible enough to simply ban it. Even the market forces wont be afffected much by this ban. Unlike the demand for beef in India which is massive.

In an Islamic Republic, it is justified to impose some regulations which clearly violates the rights of minorities (if you call beef ban as discrimination, then what you mentioned above is discrimination too. Only difference is targeted audience).