100 UK MPs back non-Indian ethnic identity move for Sikhs

[TSA321]

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/di...an-ethnic-identity-move-for-sikhs/470130.html

More than 100 British MPs cutting across party lines have aligned with an organisation which is a successor to a hitherto banned pro-Khalistan group to demand that Sikhs are ethnically different from Indians.

The MPs, under the banner of the All-Party Parliamentary Group for British Sikhs (APPGBS) and Sikh Federation UK (SFUK) — previously known as the International Sikh Youth Federation (ISYF), which was banned by the British government in 2001 under the UK Terrorism Act — have approached Britain’s Office of National Statistics (ONS) to list Sikhs as an ethnic group separate from Indians.

There was no comment from the Indian High Commission in London, but New Delhi is unlikely to be amused if the demand is granted; which means such an outcome has the potential of seriously impacting bilateral relations between India and Britain.

 

[Napa]

I wonder how much support there is for such antics among the UK Sikhs. I don't detect any great desire to separate from India among the Sikhs I know.

 

[JaDed]

I wonder how much support there is for such antics among the UK Sikhs. I don't detect any great desire to separate from India among the Sikhs I know.

Nothing wrong in creating their own identity,the Indian identity finishes once the citizens immigrate,after that its only religious one that remains.

 

[gani999]

Silly South Asians taking their bad habits with them wherever they go.

Work hard, get smart and earn a lot of money. Your identity will take care of itself.

 

[troodon]

Why only Sikh?

All Punjabis irrespective of caste and religion look different to South Indians. Even Dalit Punjabis do not look like Dalit South Indians or a Bihari or a Bengali.

They should make Punjabi as an identity and not just Sikh.

 

[KingKhanWC]

I wonder how much support there is for such antics among the UK Sikhs. I don't detect any great desire to separate from India among the Sikhs I know.

There are plenty of Sikhs in England who dont want to be part of India. As these Sikhs dont live in India now and only travel to their ansectrol homes, they have little connection with the state itself. Operation Blue star is always the point raised when Sikhs here are asked why they want to seperate.

 

[Napa]

There are plenty of Sikhs in England who dont want to be part of India. As these Sikhs dont live in India now and only travel to their ansectrol homes, they have little connection with the state itself. Operation Blue star is always the point raised when Sikhs here are asked why they want to seperate.

In reality, Sikhism is an offshoot of Hinduism like Jainism. There is a reason why Sikh names are Hindu names.

Blue Star happened a while ago, and with time that memory will fade. Sikhs in India live all over the country and inter-marry with Hindus. The two communities will not be divided.

 

[TSA321]

They should make Punjabi as an identity and not just Sikh.

But then Pakistani Punjabis would be grouped with them as well.

 

[Napa]

Nothing wrong in creating their own identity,the Indian identity finishes once the citizens immigrate,after that its only religious one that remains.

If religion is to be the basis of ethnicity, then we will soon have a ridiculous situation where Indian Muslims, Indian Christians, Indian Jains etc. all have a case for not being called ethnically Indians.

 

[MABA]

Not really sure what special ethnicity Sikhs have. They are basically North Indians with a different religion.

 

[KingKhanWC]

In reality, Sikhism is an offshoot of Hinduism like Jainism. There is a reason why Sikh names are Hindu names.

Blue Star happened a while ago, and with time that memory will fade. Sikhs in India live all over the country and inter-marry with Hindus. The two communities will not be divided.

Regardless of the history, today Sikhism is very different to Hinduism so they should be recognised as Sikhs now.

You may feel Blue Star memories will fade but many Sikhs in the UK remember this like it was yesterday, this story is passed down from their parents. You cant just ridddle someones most holy site with bullets and expect it to fade away in years to come.

 

[troodon]

But then Pakistani Punjabis would be grouped with them as well.

Indian Punjabi.

 

[JaDed]

If religion is to be the basis of ethnicity, then we will soon have a ridiculous situation where Indian Muslims, Indian Christians, Indian Jains etc. all have a case for not being called ethnically Indians.

Religion is different from country,within the border they will be Indian Muslims,Christians etc,outside its American Christians,Muslims etc.

Nationalism is w.r.t where one lives its geographic ,religion is a faith the only thing one carries on.

 

[troodon]

In reality, Sikhism is an offshoot of Hinduism like Jainism. There is a reason why Sikh names are Hindu names.

Blue Star happened a while ago, and with time that memory will fade. Sikhs in India live all over the country and inter-marry with Hindus. The two communities will not be divided.

Why do Sikhs frequently marry Hindus? I know a couple of Sharma girls married to Sikh guys.

 

[Napa]

Religion is different from country,within the border they will be Indian Muslims,Christians etc,outside its American Christians,Muslims etc.

Nationalism is w.r.t where one lives its geographic ,religion is a faith the only thing one carries on.

So you think that just like the Indian Sikhs wanting to be listed as a separate ethnicity, it would also be appropriate for Indian Muslims, Indian Christians and Indian Jains to be listed separately?

 

[Napa]

Why do Sikhs frequently marry Hindus? I know a couple of Sharma girls married to Sikh guys.

If you are in a situation where the eldest son of a family traditionally became a Sikh while other brothers remained Hindus, there is no reason for the two communities to feel different.

Having lived with Sikhs in Delhi, I can tell you that there was no feeling that they were different. That is why intermarriage happens frequently.

 

[JaDed]

So you think that just like the Indian Sikhs wanting to be listed as a separate ethnicity, it would also be appropriate for Indian Muslims, Indian Christians and Indian Jains to be listed separately?

If they leave country,to settle in another country,which is geographic,and if granted citizenship,yup I do.
One giving up the passport has nothing to do with nationalism anymore,religion is the only thing they carry around,color,humanity being others.

Indian is for people living here and still citizens of this country.

 

[Napa]

Regardless of the history, today Sikhism is very different to Hinduism so they should be recognised as Sikhs now.

You may feel Blue Star memories will fade but many Sikhs in the UK remember this like it was yesterday, this story is passed down from their parents. You cant just ridddle someones most holy site with bullets and expect it to fade away in years to come.

You are living in a fantasy world. Sikh separatism reached its peak in the 1980s. It is dead as a dodo now, except for some who have no better way to pass their time.

 

[JaDed]

Why do Sikhs frequently marry Hindus? I know a couple of Sharma girls married to Sikh guys.

? My grandmother is a Sikhni and my mom still goes to all holy places,I have even been to Hemkund Sahib which is a very hard journey.

Inter Dharmic marriages for now seldom have issues,Hindus in Delhi,Punjab regularly go to Gurudwaras.

 

[Napa]

If they leave country,to settle in another country,which is geographic,and if granted citizenship,yup I do.
One giving up the passport has nothing to do with nationalism anymore,religion is the only thing they carry around,color,humanity being others.

Indian is for people living here and still citizens of this country.

So we will end up with twenty different "ethnicities" for Indians from India... interesting!

 

[JaDed]

So we will end up with twenty different "ethnicities" for Indians from India... interesting!

Outside India why should they have the word Indian if they don't have the passport?Within India they are always going to be Indian.

 

[Napa]

Outside India why should they have the word Indian if they don't have the passport?Within India they are always going to be Indian.

I want my own ethnicity for myself. I am like no other Indian.

Why should I have to say anything I don't want to.

 

[troodon]

If you are in a situation where the eldest son of a family traditionally became a Sikh while other brothers remained Hindus, there is no reason for the two communities to feel different.

Having lived with Sikhs in Delhi, I can tell you that there was no feeling that they were different. That is why intermarriage happens frequently.

Why would the eldest son of a Brahmin or any Non-Sikh become a Sikh? Very interesting.

So one brother is a Sikh and the rest will be Hindus?

 

[troodon]

? My grandmother is a Sikhni and my mom still goes to all holy places,I have even been to Hemkund Sahib which is a very hard journey.

Inter Dharmic marriages for now seldom have issues,Hindus in Delhi,Punjab regularly go to Gurudwaras.

Do you consider yourself Sikh or a Hindu? Or both?

 

[KingKhanWC]

You are living in a fantasy world. Sikh separatism reached its peak in the 1980s. It is dead as a dodo now, except for some who have no better way to pass their time.

Where have I suggested it's a big movement? Majority of Sikhs are in India and they have accepted to be Indians but many esp abroad dont feel this way. But according to you all Indians look the same so I guess it's hard for you to understand this.

 

[Napa]

Why would the eldest son of a Brahmin or any Non-Sikh become a Sikh? Very interesting.

So one brother is a Sikh and the rest will be Hindus?

Punjabi Brahmins are different from Bhramins from other parts of India. They are virtually indistinguishable from Punjabi non-Brahmins. As a Punjabi I knew remarked "they were like others, and then they suddenly started calling themselves Brahmins".

Of course, non-Punjabi Brahmins also very strongly resemble some upper castes in other states, for example UP Brahmins are very similar to Kayasthas (Mathurs, Srivastavas etc.).

 

[Napa]

Where have I suggested it's a big movement? Majority of Sikhs are in India and they have accepted to be Indians but many esp abroad dont feel this way. But according to you all Indians look the same so I guess it's hard for you to understand this.

Where did I say all Indians look the same?

As for Sikhs abroad, it would be a blessing if after two generations they felt any connection at all to South Asia, leave aside particular ethnicities.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Where did I say all Indians look the same?

As for Sikhs abroad, it would be a blessing if after two generations they felt any connection at all to South Asia, leave aside particular ethnicities.

You said someting along the lines of its obvious someones Indian by looking at them.

You do realise Sikhs abroad own a big chunk of land in Indian Punjab?

 

[troodon]

Punjabi Brahmins are different from Bhramins from other parts of India. They are virtually indistinguishable from Punjabi non-Brahmins. As a Punjabi I knew remarked "they were like others, and then they suddenly started calling themselves Brahmins".

Of course, non-Punjabi Brahmins also very strongly resemble some upper castes in other states, for example UP Brahmins are very similar to Kayasthas (Mathurs, Srivastavas etc.).

Lot of mixing has happened obviously.

 

[akki]

hindus in punjab like me or my family and many goes to even gurudwaras more often than temple itself. And many sikhs also go to mata temples in himachal and all.its pretty common. i love my punjab.And blue star was tge darkest spot in the history of india.And after that what folllwed in delhi was even worst .
Kingkhanwc , said rightly that many sikhs do still have pain. even sikhs in punjab still talk about this pain sometimes but khalistan movement is no more here.

 

[akki]

Why would the eldest son of a Brahmin or any Non-Sikh become a Sikh? Very interesting.

So one brother is a Sikh and the rest will be Hindus?

Na na no eldest brother become sikh or like that now days. it used to be earlier when there was need for that during the mughal rule. Every elder son of the hindu kshatriyas or cud say even brahmans wud become sikh .This trend used to be very very long time before.

 

[JaDed]

Do you consider yourself Sikh or a Hindu? Or both?

Hindu, as an official religion,the lines were not that strong for us say like 10-20 years ago,my family still get Paaths done at home,I have to say I'm the first generation that has less knowledge about Sikhi in my family.

But tbf I'm not that knowledgeable on Hinduism as well.

 

[Chrish]

UK does have some weird ethnic classification. As far as Asia goes I only see three categories: East Asian, South Asian, and Middle Eastern

Russia does have white population that falls into Asia.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

In reality, Sikhism is an offshoot of Hinduism like Jainism. There is a reason why Sikh names are Hindu names.

Blue Star happened a while ago, and with time that memory will fade. Sikhs in India live all over the country and inter-marry with Hindus. The two communities will not be divided.

I think this view is what keeps the Sikhs vigilant. I have read Hindutva views that all such 'offshoots' of Hinduism will eventually be subsumed back into Hinduism. I think Sikhs fear the same fate and perhaps that is why they have lobbies like this to keep their faith alive.

 

[TM Riddle]

I have seen more Sikhs at Vaishno Devi than Hindus during my last visit there.

 

[TM Riddle]

I think this view is what keeps the Sikhs vigilant. I have read Hindutva views that all such 'offshoots' of Hinduism will eventually be subsumed back into Hinduism. I think Sikhs fear the same fate and perhaps that is why they have lobbies like this to keep their faith alive.

Although I know you are having your usual go at indians here but this is a good point.Think its time Hindus started accepting Sikhism as a different religion rather than some sect within hinduism.Over the centuries , Sikhs have created a unique identity of theirs and honestly if I were a Sikh I would find extremely offensive if someone called me a hindu.

 

[SandyB]

IDK, different ethnicity ? What difference do Punjabi hindus or Muslims have ethnically from the Sikhs ? Teh North east Indians and Southies have a much greater case of being proclaimed as a separate ethnicity .

 

[Napa]

I think this view is what keeps the Sikhs vigilant. I have read Hindutva views that all such 'offshoots' of Hinduism will eventually be subsumed back into Hinduism. I think Sikhs fear the same fate and perhaps that is why they have lobbies like this to keep their faith alive.

Whichever Hindutvas say Sikhism will be subsumed back in Hinduism are not representative of the majority of Hindus. The religion is not monolithic. Many Hindus feel free to criticize Ram for his treatment of Sita, but are quite okay with other parts of Hinduism. There is no one central book which one must believe in to be a Hindu. Shaivaites and Vashnaivites can be thought of as two different religions.

 

[Yossarian]

I wonder how much support there is for such antics among the UK Sikhs. I don't detect any great desire to separate from India among the Sikhs I know.

Under UK law, Sikhs (as well as Jews) are already classed as a separate race. And if over 100 MP's are pushing for the Office of National Statistics (ONS) to reflect this aspect of UK law in the various statistics produced by them, then obviously there is a widespread demand for it within the Sikh community.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Under UK law, Sikhs (as well as Jews) are already classed as a separate race. And if over 100 MP's are pushing for the Office of National Statistics (ONS) to reflect this aspect of UK law in the various statistics produced by them, then obviously there is a widespread demand for it within the Sikh community.

I agree that sikhs are a different race, in the sense that anyone who follows sikhism is a different breed altogether, with their respect for humanity, high moral values and kindness towards all.

 

[Napa]

Under UK law, Sikhs (as well as Jews) are already classed as a separate race. And if over 100 MP's are pushing for the Office of National Statistics (ONS) to reflect this aspect of UK law in the various statistics produced by them, then obviously there is a widespread demand for it within the Sikh community.

There is nothing "obvious" about this. A few activists backed by a few wealthy donors can influence the political process significantly. In my experience, there is no daylight between Sikhs and other Indians in India or abroad.

 

[English August]

Outside India why should they have the word Indian if they don't have the passport?Within India they are always going to be Indian.

Exactly. This is much ado about nothing.

Indians (India passport holders) are Indians irrespective of their religion. And sikhs are sikhs irrespective which country they belong to.

Which means these fools are asking for something that they already have! They are citizens of UK and their religion is sikhism. Who exactly is asking them to call themselves Indians?! They can call themselves whatever they want.

 

[Yossarian]

I agree that sikhs are a different race, in the sense that anyone who follows sikhism is a different breed altogether, with their respect for humanity, high moral values and kindness towards all.

They are no more, and no less, than any other group in that regard. Don't delude yourself.

As for Sikhs (and Jews) being a 'different race' under the law, well they do say that sometimes the law is an a.s.s. Because, according to this aspect of the law, when a person converts to (or from) Sikhism or Judism, they perform a miracle of nature, ie they change their race!

There is nothing "obvious" about this. A few activists backed by a few wealthy donors can influence the political process significantly. In my experience, there is no daylight between Sikhs and other Indians in India or abroad.

I agree with you in that regard. See above re- my comments about Sikhs and Jews having the ability, according to the law, of being able to undergo a miracle of nature and change their race.

 

[CricketCartoons]

They are no more, and no less, than any other group in that regard. Don't delude yourself.

That sounds good if you want to be politically correct, but in my opinion sikhs are the model community when it comes to showing kindness, courage and humanity. All that without doing a PR. So let us agree to disagree.

 

[Slog]

Its always funny

Majority of the Canadian and American Sikhs I know arent that hot on India and see themselves as different people from Indians in general and dream of one day there being a Khalistan

However the Sikhs from India are generally pro-India and sometimes very patriotic.

Why the disconnect? Are Indian Sikhs scared of hurting sentiments of India and dont express their true feelings?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

That sounds good if you want to be politically correct, but in my opinion sikhs are the model community when it comes to showing kindness, courage and humanity. All that without doing a PR. So let us agree to disagree.

The ones who wear turbans and are observant Sikhs, you are probably right. In the UK, and I guess abroad everywhere, these tend to be a dwindling number, so the rest are pretty much like everyone else.

 

[boomboomcheema]

Its always funny

Majority of the Canadian and American Sikhs I know arent that hot on India and see themselves as different people from Indians in general and dream of one day there being a Khalistan

However the Sikhs from India are generally pro-India and sometimes very patriotic.

Why the disconnect? Are Indian Sikhs scared of hurting sentiments of India and dont express their true feelings?

Most probably due to fear of being branded a traitor and lynched by Hindutva Mobs.

Every Single Sikh that I have met in the West is a Proud Separatist.

 

[kabbirann]

The ones who wear turbans and are observant Sikhs, you are probably right. In the UK, and I guess abroad everywhere, these tend to be a dwindling number, so the rest are pretty much like everyone else.

Not really,wearing a turban and being religious has zilch to do with morality.
Infact Sikh clergy in some of the big Delhi gurudwaras is notorious for being corrupt and money-hungry.
Not saying though that all turban wearers are bad.

 

[kabbirann]

Its always funny

Majority of the Canadian and American Sikhs I know arent that hot on India and see themselves as different people from Indians in general and dream of one day there being a Khalistan

However the Sikhs from India are generally pro-India and sometimes very patriotic.

Why the disconnect? Are Indian Sikhs scared of hurting sentiments of India and dont express their true feelings?

Don't judge all of India based on the Hindutva loonies.I grew up in India and while parts of North India are gutter like,India on the whole is a beautiful,fascinating country.
I admit the headlines worry me and I hate how BJP is destroying this India that I once knew.

With Canadian Sikhs, there are two groups,the 1st group migrated ages ago and 2nd group migrated during the Khalistan years .The 1st group liked India as long as India's soft power was making news,but once the headlines were of rapes and lynching ,they were very happy to disassociate themselves.
The 2nd group is so embittered about the deaths in Punjab during the terrorism years that they will forever hate India.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Not really,wearing a turban and being religious has zilch to do with morality.
Infact Sikh clergy in some of the big Delhi gurudwaras is notorious for being corrupt and money-hungry.
Not saying though that all turban wearers are bad.

Just my observation, the Sikhs who wear turbans tend to be the ones who differentiate themselves on their codes of conduct like CricketCartoons mentioned. Otherwise the ones who fit in with the rest when they go abroad are generally no different to the rest as Yossarian says. That's not to say there aren't good and bad in both examples.

 

[ToeCrusher2]

Its always funny

Majority of the Canadian and American Sikhs I know arent that hot on India and see themselves as different people from Indians in general and dream of one day there being a Khalistan

However the Sikhs from India are generally pro-India and sometimes very patriotic.

Why the disconnect? Are Indian Sikhs scared of hurting sentiments of India and dont express their true feelings?

There he goes again

majority of canadian and american sikhs you "know"

How many do you know? Is the number greater than 1?

 

[ToeCrusher2]

Most probably due to fear of being branded a traitor and lynched by Hindutva Mobs.

lol hindutva mobs don't open your mouth the evil hindutva mob is gonna get ya

 

[Eagle_Eye]

I think it would be perfectly plausible if they included Punjabi identity for those that want to be identified as such.

What is the basis of their claim to seperate ethnicity?

 

[Napa]

Why the disconnect? Are Indian Sikhs scared of hurting sentiments of India and dont express their true feelings?

One thing I can tell you is that Sikhs are not a people who run scared of anyone.

It should not be a surprise that Indian Sikhs are pro-India. They live with other Indians all around them, and have their friends and family. Growing up in Delhi, about 3 of my closest 6 friends were Sikh. No way they would ever feel not a part of the same country as me.

Generally Sikhs as a group do better than other Indians, especially in the Army. So they are not going to suddenly start feeling discriminated against.

 

[ToeCrusher2]

One thing I can tell you is that Sikhs are not a people who run scared of anyone.

It should not be a surprise that Indian Sikhs are pro-India. They live with other Indians all around them, and have their friends and family. Growing up in Delhi, about 3 of my closest 6 friends were Sikh. No way they would ever feel not a part of the same country as me.

Generally Sikhs as a group do better than other Indians, especially in the Army. So they are not going to suddenly start feeling discriminated against.

No need to explain this stuff, let them live in the delusion of Sikhs being afraid of hindutva mobs ) and scared of hurting the sentiments of Indians , btw I am a Sikh

 

[GBK_Fan]

That's a smart move from the Sikh community, considering Brexit and the right wingers getting ever closer to power

 

[Specialisttailender]

Punjabi's identify themselves as Punjabi's that doesn't make them all hate India. Jus Reign and his buddies are pro-khalistani's they came to my college for one of their shooting video. He started India vs Punjab joke and took it a bit far.